Nobody Panic - How to Flirt (Live at the Underbelly Festival)

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Oh hey. How you doin’? Live from the Underbelly Festival in Cavendish Square! Stevie and Tessa discuss the deep history, and the hot science of flirting, and talk you through their hard-earned flirting pro-tips.Want to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The date is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace. It's coming to London. True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September at King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Nobody panic. At Wembley. Oh, thank you for having us. Every time anyone says a large venue, I want to say Nebworth, because of the time, Robbie Williams said,

Nebworth's just a farm. I don't know why I started. I'm glad we started recording at that point. Today's episode is about how to flirt, isn't it? So we're doing it live, obviously, but we're going to start, before we get into flirting,

we're going to, we've asked that all of the audience, all 10,000 of them, to write down, they're at their... It took an hour. hours to do this. For them to write down

that adult things and we're going to read out some and we're all going to be very supportive we might ask some questions of the adult things and I think we've got Jasmine who's on like a roving mic that is being cleaned

between each use. But we might not have any questions you might have said it. We might not have any follow up you might have absolutely snatched it. It might be really boring. My dad and my mum are here and my dad said

read mine out so I'll try. Sorry father. I've got a, listen, a strong contender to start. Okay, please. Okay, I finished my dissertation early, brackets, this morning, so I could come and get drunk and watch nobody panic. Boom!

Right, that's what we're here for. Okay, oh my God, wrote an article about boiler cover and insurance. That is adult. It's also adult, if you did it sexy. Defrosted a mystery dinner instead of getting takeout. I think I understand, but I don't want to. I think it was like got something out of the back of the freezer but I respect it 100%.

Oh, this is good. I read a book on the tube and then re-did the sealant around my bath to stop a leak. Anything about sealant? It roared. And you are over 18, my friend. Driving a car without getting a fine, brackets, I hope.

We all hope, mate. Trying to be more spontaneous, well done, went on an unplanned night out after a last minute text from a friend and had a good time. Yeah. This is, I really like this one. Successfully conducted my first one-night stand.

It is what the people say. Wow. Would that person like to share any details? Understood. Fair point. Fair play. Took annual leave instead of working constantly and burning out. Yes.

Oh my God. Made a will. Is it my dad? I think this might be, I'd a guess, one of the new people who did not know what this is Oh no Oh please

I shaved my balls I'm joking This one This one I'm going to read out because it went in the carver Left the job I hated for two years Pop me back in the carver I'm going to drink that up

That is delicious Yes yes Yes Inky A spider was behind me In a Zoom meeting Where's this story going And I didn't freak out

In front of everyone That is very nice. Started drinking coffee at 32 years of age. I'm with you. Unless do you like maybe like two more each. No, no, I love them so much. It's in the car for as well. This also suggests what jet wash the cat.

I don't think, and I'm not illegal. It's not a typo. It's not a pipo. Paid my parking ticket early to get a reduced price, but also oops parking ticket. Yeah, but if it's early, that counteracts anything, doesn't it? Tried monkfish for the first time. Is it adult? We don't know.

I don't really know what monkfish is. started applying for a master's degree. I hope you get done, you will get it. I got a job offer and I'm trying to find out how to ask for more money. We have got an episode about it. Past my probation period at work, didn't cry in the meeting.

Very impressive. Didn't fall over at the roller disco. Is that actually genuine one, didn't fall over at the roller disco? Okay, great. I'm going to do one more. I know. Oh, painted the planters in the garden. Of our first home.

Parking ticket person. Parking ticket gang, get together, jump started the car and told a mansplaining passer-by to get stuffed with his unsolicited advice. Get stuffed. Dads, I'm really sad, unless it was I bought a trench coat. And also congrats. Use beetroot in a recipe, love it.

Okay, look, let's start. Oh, that is my dad's. Yeah. Oh, okay. Wait, drove all the way to London to see my daughter in Cavendish Square on Nobody Panic. Okay, so...

Let's do it. Let's do the flirting business. This is how ready I am. I've got my Love Island water bottle. Which you tried to palm off on me. I didn't try and palm it off, but there's Tessa on it. That would be such a bad gift. But you said, do you want to Love Island Water bottle?

Yeah, with your own name on it? Oh my God, you were going to get in the dog. Of course I was. I didn't know that. I was going to say Tessor on it. And I was like, why I would want that? Okay, so, talking of Love Island, the love element. So to start, I think it's nice to get a sort of an idea.

So obviously, you know, we're doing how to flirt. So you're like, okay, well, what sort of quality? to you guys have to tell me, you know, how to flirt. So Tessa, how do you flirt, for example? Quite badly, but I love it. I absolutely. Do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, ah, ah. But what about when you're flirting with someone that you genuinely really fancy? Yeah, eh. All of it. I just, I think it's very exciting and fun. And when I'm flirting, I just think the moment of, okay, to return to Love Island for a second, they're very obsessed with like the connection or the spark or like was there a moment.

And people are very, they sort of shit on that of being like, how could, meh? Like, why are you making, you know, but. No, sorry, you're going to have to expand on that. Who shits on the spark of romance? People, viewers are like, oh, they make such a big, they make so many big deals out of very small things in love on like pulling people for a chat or the rules of what, or making coffee in the morning or whatever. and they vary into this

like the spark and people are like, you don't know but I really think you do know from the moment you make eyes for somebody across a bar or wherever and there's like a frisson and then we're like... Is that French?

I don't know. Have I pronounced it wrong? No, it's frisoned. I'm well read but lowly spoken so I don't... Wow. Sometimes I say words out loud and they're not right.

No, it was frisson. Oh my God, and you thought it was fricent. Yeah. Well, Red, lonely spoken. Very gullible. I thought it was... Fristalt's perfect. Is it wizened or wizened?

There's wizard. Yeah, no. Or an old tree. I did a voiceover the other day and said, I said stifled instead of stifled. Oh, it was bad. I also had... It doesn't matter.

There was a lot going on in the voiceover. I think it's wizened. Is that correct? yeah yeah yeah okay well whatever the correct one is all my life I said wizened because I was like because the tree is wise you know wise right because the most the tree got to do with anything because you say like a wizened old tree listen that's what I'm saying never see never said out loud in conversation before so anyway so you did it you did a great

job it's a frisson thank you so much I do really believe very profoundly in the moment of the frisson and the spark and the electricity and that's in that exciting moment of like oh oh yeah we we it's on like that's oh my ma ma you know yes you know actually no because um I don't flirt

and when you said um you know you read a lot about you read a lot about flirting obviously in any book or film or anything there's always like a love interest or whatever um I was gonna say unless it's like but actually know pretty much everything they sort throw something in

so you kind of feel like oh I can't wait for that free song moment yeah yeah However, in real life, I don't think I've ever made eyes at someone at a bar. Because I just, my thing is when I like somebody, I like to ignore them. Okay. And pretend, actually, too much, actively that I dislike them. How big, and I've thought about this a lot on the tube over, which is that I like to sort of, you know, I'm so terrified that they won't like me,

that I need to conduct a full non-biased experiment with no variables. So in order to do that, complete blank canvas. So anything they do, I'm like, that is from that's them, they maybe like me. But then what happens is I just sort of walk out the room or something. What? I know. It sounds like I'm being over the top, but it's not. So there's somebody that I did like for a while, and then ages later, they were like,

oh, yeah, that year when you sort of hated me and you didn't want to, like, hang out with me. And I was like, I wanted to marry you. But when I don't like someone, not when I don't like someone, but when I don't fancy someone, I'm absolutely fine. So then you get the weird sort of thing Of people being like, I guess she likes me And I'm like, no, I do like you But I don't want to have sex with you

But like, like, the person I want to have sex with you. Well, should we unpack that? Why do we think that comes from? A fear of rejection. Or rejectsuan. But when they... Rejectsuan, that's how you pronounce you. When they do the eyes at you, aren't you like...

I don't any anyone does the eyes at me? I get eyes everywhere I go. I always get eyes. Just throwing eyes. Nice. A really great little tiny manager that kind of explains my kind of that, what you just asked me, is that I remember I was at university and I was at this club called Love Trompet. No, I can't we call that. Love Shack.

Love Trompet Shack. And I was in the toilet with my friend and I was like, I was very much single throughout most of uni and I was like, oh, no one wants to get off with me. I think I said. And then I, and then my friend was like, oh, that's sad. And then I left... Shame in it. And then I left... I left the bathroom.

And a guy went, hey, and I went, fuck off. To the bar and was like, and that is literally... And I was like, oh, I didn't even look at him. Because I would... When I'm single and I'm in a bar... I don't look at anyone, because I'm so frightened that they'll think I'm looking at them. Okay.

And yeah, carry on the thought process. And then they'll be like, why is that girl looking at me? Yeah. Maybe she fancies me. Right. I'm going to be sick. I imagine. I don't know.

You're so terrified that you do the eyes and they are like, how embarrassing that girl's doing the eyes. Yeah, the eyes are like, I also don't know how to do the eyes. That's pretty close. That's not bad, yeah. It's like, tot caramel toffee eyes where it's like your eyes are stocking toffee and you can't get them away.

It's like, okay. Look, let's move on, I think. That's from, for the very young in the room, that is from Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging, if everyone remembers. Great book. People have a, yeah, a certain group. We went to high school.

We were at secondary school just as the internet was arriving who's to say when it came? I have no idea. I love Microsoft and Carter for a long time. Yeah, so that gives you an example of our age. I'm not whoops at Carter. As you should, it was a fantastic resource. But for a while, we didn't have the internet

and all we had were the magazines and our Bible, Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging. And the Bible. And the Bible, sorry. We were very confused teenagers. And that's all we had. And Angus Longson Philphonte Snogging, she teaches you caramel eyes or toffee eyes, which is you make eye contact,

and then you, I'm not doing an impression of it. You don't look at me. You pull, you look like you are pulling your eyes away, you look away, and then back. Then you go back. Maybe the back is like less fast. But yes, and so that was, I was obsessed with that. Because I was like, imagine,

because when I was reading that, it was in year nine, and there was a boy in my art class that I really liked, but I never looked at him, because I was so frightened that he'd look at me, and then at the end of, like, year 11, I asked my friend to ask him out for me, and he went, who?

I was like, I sat next to you in art for three years. I wasn't doing the caramel eyes, you know? It was, I don't think the caramelizers would have helped you there, if I made. I spent most of the art glass in a cupboard, is that? I think it's like a big, so number one on the flirting thing is, get out the cupboard.

Get out the cupboard. and into the bar and confidence. You've got to believe that. And also you've got to be like, okay, if they don't reciprocrate, no harm, no foul. No problem. So easy to say, so difficult to do.

Disgusting to feel awful. But I think that takes us into maybe because you've got some stuff about the science behind flirting. Yeah, I do. Because the fear, and I think this is, it feels, I don't know if anyone listening or watching feels the same,

but for me, it just feels like such a primal fear. Like, it feels like the ultimate fear. But I know academically. who cares that person at the bar will just be like she's doing those weird eyes of me I'll just continue my day but don't you know the moment you look at somebody don't you immediately know

whether they want whether they're down to fan if I was in a film yeah no in real life I look at my like family like I'm looking now like I don't know if anyone's DTS like it are you serious down to funny around yeah do you actually not know

I think I know so it's this sort of Yeah, but I think I've got to get to the bottom of this, which is like, do you know? Are you okay, hon? Are you occasionally? I know, I do know, and I have to say, I think a lot of people are very aware of when you're being flirted with slash at.

So I can say, if I'm in like a group and I'm like, okay, that person kind of maybe thinks that it's on, but I have been in a long-term relationship, so it's not. And then I will mention that I have a boyfriend, and then that's cool and we're all fine. But in actual, like, I like that person, I honestly it's like an alien takes over my body and it's like get in the cupboard

yeah that's very tough I feel mad though because you're like love it, love me can A's the lads I feel like why do why do I why am I so scared evolutionarily and do you have any answers to that in your science yep why not

my thing I guess it's just that like you've got to not fear the rejection that they you know you've got to you've got to trust your gut that's like I think there's energy in the air here I think there's electricity stop shaking your head and getting in the cupboard you've got to get out you've got to be out there no I know but I read

that so one of the reasons scientifically that flirting can be very challenging and because we are as humans it's like built in from the olden days that we're inherently afraid of strangers so you have to basically like counteract that and also which I

find very interesting is this is very like gender normative but like men tend to overestimate the interest and women tend to underestimate. Hello. As you can see, my underestimation is so wild. I'm like, nobody will ever look at me. Whereas I guess, you know, maybe it's different for, also it says as well that like it, it's the internet says as well that the reason that is is that men evolved to pick up on sexual cues of interest and respond in hopes of procreating with as many females as possible.

Whereas females are like, babies difficult to raise on my own. Maybe have to pick one good old friend. Sex friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what I refer to, my boyfriend. My sex friend. Very sensible. He's going to, you know, he could have thousands and thousands of babies.

And again, sweeping. Yeah. The shadow. That's what I call my boyfriend. If he put the work in, made himself an Excel spreadsheet, cracked on easily, thousands in a year. And you, at your very best, one, you know? So, of course. Who likes being ignored and not the best person to raise a child?

But so of course you're like, no, no, no, I've got to make sure this is right. Whereas they are much more operating. Sorry, and again, so sweeping, so gross. But science would be there saying, you know, that the instinct is to be like, well, try it on, try it on, try it on with anybody who cares. And to be like, yeah, I assume they like it. I assume they want me. Yes, and that's the bit that I find very difficult. I read about how flirting, you can see flirting as not just an innately sexual thing.

It can be like trying to show somebody that you're kind of non-threatening, trying to be like, you know, so when you meet a threat, like, you know when you're at a party, so I'm straight. So like, if I see a girl, I'm not going to be sexually attracted to her. But I will be like, she's so cool. She's got a cool dress. She's holding a cool dress and wearing a cool little one. Maybe I am.

But in like a friendship way. And so then I will want to appear like, but that's so much easier for me because I'll just be like, oh, cool, I'll go over to her or like, you know, like say like, oh, look your dress or whatever. It feels the rules are so much easier. So if you apply that to kind of like any kind of flirting and you just sort of treat everybody like, I'm just going to be like, I'm going to try and be their friend. And like, be like, then immediately the stakes are lower. My fear when I'm single is that I fear the feeling of being desperate, which is so sad and so like gendered. and so ridiculous. Yeah.

Because you're not desperate. You're just like everybody else. Everyone's trying to pair up or not, but everyone's trying to like, no one wants to be allowed. Or bang this evening. You know, not forever.

Or don't bang this very evening. And we wish you all good luck. Yes. The, the science thing of like what's actually happening when you are flirting with somebody and why it can feel so electric and cool and nice.

Or scary. Or scary, but I think to... Like you want to die. Okay. Sorry. But what if you, you know, that both parties are in and now we're both flirting, yeah?

No? Okay, never. I'm just going to be quiet for this section. I think you are missing a neuro bit in your brain. And that's cool. And that's cool. It's not releasing nor a fine frine. Sounds like I made it up, didn't.

It's the like electric flirting chemical. That's the one that's like, oh my God, where's this going? Are we flirting? I do have that. Okay, great. Someone has to sit me down and be like, I fancy you. Okay, great.

I'm there. So I get it. It would be, so, rather than just saying, I fancy you out like, got to be picking up on some clues. And then this is, because this I only share with you in the hope that you read the clues, don't do the clues, because if you try and do this, you will look mad. So when you are flirting with somebody, and all this is happening subconsciously, you will start body mirroring.

You will start. Body mirroring. Yeah, you will start body mirroring. So you will instinctively start doing the same body language that they're doing. You'll cross their legs. if they're crossing their legs, you will turn your body, you will start doing stuff.

Hello! But again, if you try and do this on purpose, it will look like you keep being like doing all the bits that they're doing. You'll also start, and then again, very love island, you will start showing off a bit of your neck. Really?

Yep. You will do this completely instinctively. It is a way of being like, I trust you, and here is my neck. I find that fascinated, because actually, yes, when you are nervous and when you're, you sort of do,

sort of touch your hair a bit. You touch your hair and you do do this and you sort of be, and then you also might show your palms. Again, don't do it on purpose. You will look crazy. I'm doing an impression of doing it on purpose for anyone listening.

And it's good. And it's sexy. So showing all your vulnerable bits, basically. They're like insult. But not all your vulnerable bits. All you can. Yeah. It's okay.

But I hit this is a lot shame. You will. completely instinctively or somebody who's doing it back child. You will start showing you inside of your wrists. You will start showing more. I just don't believe it.

Yes. I just don't believe that you'd be like sharing having a drink with somebody and you're just like I'm just going to drink up this trip. I swear. Right. Okay. Right.

Tonight we're all going to the bar. We're going to sit near a couple we think are flirting but far enough away that they don't know we're there. Okay? So bring binoculars so you can get a good view. Nice bit of field work. In the field we go, look at a couple who are flirting,

and watch the neck. Okay. They will stop. Pulse points, right? Yeah, to say, I trust you and I'm prepared to be vulnerable with you. That's really nice. Yeah. But there might be, maybe like that could be, you know,

so for different people, being vulnerable with someone is like a different, So you know how a lot of people say like they don't want to eat in front of somebody or they feel kind of uncomfortable in a day. Like I remember the first day when I was my I was going to say my current boyfriend as it was like this is a conveyor belt of men and there is.

But no, so I, we just, like, I didn't think about it gone really well at nachos. And I ate like, like, nachos is not a food that you would like, you know, go, that's a sexy food to watch someone eat. And then apparently I ate his nachos as well because he didn't want to eat. And that was like, that was my showing my wrists.

What I'm trying to say is maybe like for everybody they have us right you didn't think I wasn't like I'll eat his naturalist because I'll be vulnerable But it was like that it was afterwards that I was like Oh one of the dates that I've like especially when you know when it was like Apps or something and you kind of are so aware of what you're doing you're like I won't eat with you I'll say like oh oh like I don't know I'm embarrassed to eat this sort of food or or I'll Like the sort of pub that you pick or everything you're kind of overthinking whereas with him I didn't overthink anything.

No. And so that I suppose was me showing my neck. Yeah. A hundred percent. They got a proverbial neck. So one thing is maybe you can all think about your proverbial necks and wrists. I'm telling people. No, no.

Triangulate. No. The opposite. The opposite. No, ignore that. Just get your neck out. If you do it on purpose, if you go into a flirting scenario, presenting and being like, and now the vulnerable Nacho show, you know, if you are thinking about it,

you will look. I'm sorry. Okay, maybe I'm just saying like, if you're like afterwards, you can look back and go like, oh my God, I was really vulnerable with that person. You can look back.

You can watch the people do it. Don't go in being like, I think the proverbs, the nacho show is very funny. Yes, don't do that. If you do it on purpose, that's why it will feel stilted and weird. But that's what I'm saying,

all this stuff is like, you can't go, and when people try and teach you about flirting techniques, like if you attempt it, you know, or if it's like, here's a fantastic icebreaker. It's like, ain't no icebreaker so good that if you deliver it in a like, hello what is a big bear

in that classic icebreaker What does the big bear do Is that Have you done any icebreaking before? What did the 40 pound polar bear do? Is that an icebreaker

He broke the ice? Oh very good Have you ever had a job? No they don't ask No I'm saying That's what I'm saying Like it wasn't nice was it When I did that

If you come into it And here are my plans And here is my bear And what does the bear do? Exactly. This is a bit more subconscious stuff. The butt. You might start,

okay. No, I know. You might start. You might start showing a bit of your butt. No, you might just start. And again, hello, Love Island. Very sexy, very nice. Everyone's seeing your bot, mate.

Everyone's enjoying it. Yeah, no, I said you are a bit. I'm not showing you my whole butt. Sorry, you're listening. She's literally not. She's sitting down and just sort of pointing at her hip. But I think that's, you know. That's it.

Yeah, good. Okay, in the Animal Kingdom, it's called loistress. It is when you... Yeah, we're all learning. We get, you... Okay, imagine, like, just... Like a... Lost confidence.

I have, yeah. Oh, I didn't want to show you, because it'll be gross. Imagine someone just, like, presenting their butt and then turning around and looking at you. Oh, the... Oh, what film is it? Whether they do the bend and snap or the... Yeah, yeah.

Same, same, same. Legally blonde. It's all about because there's a lot of like presenting and showing and all of this stuff and again if you do this on purpose you will look crazy Also the pupils might dilate your pupils dilate when you see something that you like but it might be the person

or it might be the food so who's to say Or it's a very certain bright light And you might blush or go red Or feel like all sort of electric and every like oh my god I'm sweating and I'm blushing and all of this stuff is happening and that is your body literally on overdrive sending the blood

all the way around and being like, where do we need, we don't know what's going on. Is it fight? Is it flight? Are we going to have sex? Is it, is it now? We don't know. Well, that actually reminds me is that we've done quite a lot of episodes on like overcoming things you're frightened of. And now you said that,

that's what I feel like when I'm supposed to be, when I'm supposed to be flirting. Yeah. When I've been sent in to flood. And I feel very like, I get all the kind of like nervous symptoms, which makes me go, oh, I should remove myself in the situation because my mouth is dry. and I'm shaking. This is not a sexy thing.

But actually, if you use that to be like, oh, this is adrenaline sort of like taking me into maybe like a new interesting place. And also, the idea that like, you know, flirting doesn't have to mean an end point. I think that's really crucial. That if somebody,

because the chemical, like there's so much there's so much chemically going on between two people when they may, working out even before you, like, pheromones and also just like, as well. Like, I've read about how like, genetic so weirdly weird things like people who have brown eyes are oddly more genetically predisposed to mate with people with blue eyes because it's because it's the genetic opposite like how are you

supposed to actually you can't consciously know that so when someone doesn't flirt back or doesn't like respond well it doesn't mean like oh you're a shit lad no it means like it could mean like oh just on a very DNA level just it's not kind of fitting and that's kind of quite freeing in a way When they discovered pheromones, that really released everybody from the holds of being like, if I just look nice enough and I was just funny enough, everyone would love me. You're like, your pheromones are a smell that you can't smell. Your body can smell it and you have no concept of it. And if someone smells, gross, there's nothing you can do about it.

I remember that in you need... When I went through the Great Draft of 2008, 2008, 2012, I... It's very true and it's very serious. I bought... This is not... This is fully true. I bought this perfume from Anselmars that had bear pheromones. Try to attract a man. And also it came with a free little key ring.

There was functioning handcuffs that were this big for a mouse. If I wanted to do a bit of bondage for the mouse, I was just absolutely... It didn't work. Did it not? Did it not? No. The perfume also smelled disgusting.

No shit. It was very very like flowering and gross. Anyway, that was just my... So the bear pheromone didn't work. I can't believe it. No, but it feels like it. You should want to go natural with that shade. You got it because you're like, that's your, that is,

your body does know, it's smart, it's smart. And it's like, and if you've masked it with a bear, and you know, it's, all you've attracted. Bears have come up so much more than I thought they would in this, in this podcast. Any more sort of like scientific reasons behind? No, I'm ready to move. I do.

I'm going to keep, I'm going to save it and I'm going to let you, I'm going to go, let's, I'm ready to move. Yeah, so we were obviously going to do some, like, just hard and fast tips, but I found some fun tips throughout sort of history that, you know, I think are still very relevant today that we can maybe use. So, for example, oh yes, so in 19th century rural Austria, eligible lasses women would keep an apple slice in their armpits during dances. At the end of the evening, the girl would give her used fruit to the guy she most fancied.

And if the feeling was mutual, he would eat the apple. So, you know, try that next time when you're out and about. This is adorable. in 17th century Wales they exchanged love spoons which is intricately hand-carved wooden spoons I'm thinking of you here I think if you had to whittle a spoon

to foot you'd absolutely smash it and guess who has done have you whittled a spoon from Anne? No my dad did from mum yeah no he did even he whittled her a spoon do you still have a spoon?

Yeah and it worked obviously the product of it I mean that's it's quite big and she says it fits very nicely over her forehead. So sometimes she just like places this too weird to describe. Oh, Debbie.

Okay, well, I mean, that's fine. They would've got, and what was the thing? I mean, literally that. They would exchange intricately hand-carved wooden spoons assigned to romantic attentions. And young men spend hours meticulously crafting their spoons. Lovely. And also certain things were like, a twist in it would be like,

together forever. Like messages in it, you know? In the Italian Renaissance, you would walk up to someone that you fancy and just give them your best belt. What are your trousers? Full belt. You take it off your body? No, well, I mean, you could do.

That would be actually probably more impressive. You would sort of have a belt and be like, that's my best one. And then you'd put a poem inside of it. It was like, you are a sexy lady or whatever. But in like Italian. Oh, yes, fun. So if you're like, oh, you know, if you're like, oh, you know, say if you're in the Netherlands in the 17th century

and you're like I really like that person but I can't get my hands off him or her and what you do is you sort of spend a lot of time and sleep together night after night but each be in your own individual Hesian sack Very clever

I would say immediately you just pop in some armholes penis holes Sorry who's this It's everyone in the Netherlands Oh, right. And what time is this? Oh, the night. 17th century sort of around.

So you get in your big Hesian sack. So you get in two separate Hessean sacks. One per person, like a sack rate. But for sex. No, for not sex. Sorry, no, but the idea was that then you would like, it was the ultimate goal was sex. They'd be like, oh, we get on so well,

we're in these individual sacks. Let's remove the sack, baby. For the wedding night. Like how this one blew your mind with the apple slice, you were just weird. The apples lies, the rules make total sense. I understand here's my sweaty apple, you eat it, you don't.

What I found the... What's the objective? Well, there's actually quite a lot of cultures that have this even more kind of like, come on, thing, which is that they would have a hut where the intended or the courting couple would just go to a hut where their parents weren't and would sleep in the hut

like every night up until their wedding day but they weren't allowed to have sex, but the parents weren't allowed to be in there, so it's like, well, they're obviously having sex. Like, bad. So at least the sacks, sort of, you kind of, you know, if you're in a sack, who's ever had sex in a sack? Yeah, exactly.

Difficult in the Netherlands. Okay. So I, like, in the Victorian times here, I found this fascinating, is that the woman, obviously, again, very gender normative because it's the Victorian era. A woman must cultivate a helpless

image. Oh. So they are seen as a... Sorry, so sassy from me. Those Victorians, yeah. I mean, I think we can be sassy about the Victorians, I don't think that's too soon. Sorry if anyone's offended. Sorry, if any Victorians are in. Sorry.

With a helpless image. We can't see them because it's on the floor in the back. So they also, so the idea, the aim was to cultivate this as a helpless image, which is very helpful because apparently the, you weren't, and it was very good, you weren't allowed to

marry, if you're a girl, over the age of 12. So that was good. So they are, so it's very easy to be a delicate flower if you're a 12-year-old marrying like a 50-year-old man. Amazing. So you had to be seen as a very difficult, delicate flower. You needed the man to take charge. And so in order to do this, they really cultivate.

And I actually thought this, but when I see films a lot that are set in that area, you're like, why are they so pale? And why they're under eye circles? They would try and cultivate pale skin and very, very dark circles under the eyes by drinking vinegar and not eating. So that they would look so sickly

that like an old man would be like, God, look after her. Incredibly depressing. And the only physical contact you could have during the sort of courtship period is that if there was something in the road that in order to like pass the thing in the road the man would have to give his hand to help you over it.

So I suppose like a tip would be just like go and scout out some roads put loads of obbs like sort of dead badgers or some shit and then so I'd just be like, show me take a turn down this road. Oh! And then it'll be also walk around the badgers so you just pick a sort of a dam of roadkill So the person had to help you over.

But what a mine feel? You would have thrived at that time. You would have been so good. Yeah, I've actually genuinely... Born to the wrong era, don't you? I really was. And then fans. Get your fan out.

That's it, really. It's a fan? Yes, it was sort of like... Oh, yeah, so I didn't actually say that. Get your fan out, that's a tip. No. So in the Victorian time, if a lady wasn't interested, she would rest her fan on her left cheek.

Oh, left cheek. Left cheek? Left, sorry. Yeah, left cheek. To say, that was the clue to say no thing. Absolutely no thanks. And then, oh yes, there's also like there's more, so if a lady was fanning slowly, already spoken for,

fawning quickly on the market. Fan rests on right cheek. She's interested, get in there. Wow. Both are introduced only if you're reversed. That is so many rules. Oh my God. If you are doing the apps and trying to flood on the apps

and you've lost morale, morale. It's not a new thing. Like in the 17th century shepherds would um, shepherds would carve onto a tree when their interests

and when they would next be in the area. Did then? Yeah. Is that shepherd hinge? Yeah, big shepherd hinge. Because they're ever so lonely. It doesn't matter who's around. So then you'd pass through and you'd be like oh. He's back at the waxing moon in there.

Oh, and he likes sheep, Crooks, and crooks, and he'll be back around Whitson. And that was, yeah, and then when they first introduced, you know, writing into the dating columns, the first person in wanted a woman with, it was like 1872,

all small feet and her own teeth. Oh, that's nice, though. Nice. Good, isn't it? Yeah, and when the first late, that was like, and men had been doing it for like 100 years, being like, I'm an 18 year old man and I would like a young woman, please, I've got a house.

And then the first lady did it at the turn of the century. Her name was Helen or Sue. I don't think it's either of those. She wrote in and she said she was looking for a kind man to spend her life with. I mean, that is absolutely in a microcosm dating sites, isn't it? And they sent her to the asylum. Oh!

That's incredible. A microcosm of dating. Look, so if you've lost morale, at least you're not, Helen or Sue, in the asylum. It's got better. It's got better, hasn't it? One of my things was about, when we were, again, when we were young, we had just the magazines that endlessly, J-17, Ms. Bliss. They would have lots of flirting tips in it, but they'd also have, like, sex position

of the week, and I was like, 12. I guess that's what I must do to flirt. It was a confusing magazine and a confusing time. We didn't know what we were fucking doing. But a lot of their thing was. and this is the if the lady thing is the presenting a bit of butt

the gentleman's is called crotch display it is put in your hands on your hips presenting the penis and seeing if anyone would like a go no thank you no thank you but you will see in a men doing it in a dominant setting or in a business setting or in a bar people

putting one foot up on the thing on the at the bar in the bar business yes does anyone do business my penis yes here it is to show you and they were also very obsessed with the tips would say touch the knee

always touching the knee make sure your knee is angled to his their knee yes that was a facet you have to angle yourself always always be angling always be angling and draw attention to the lips

oh yes you have to like touch your lips a bit just cover that that is why no tips for this no you mustn't have any of these tips because you'll just be doing this yeah and then show us a bit of that now I've brought it

I've modernised it. Yes, no, those tips were, and I think that is the kind of like take home in general, is that the tips in and of themselves are insane and don't work. But the thing is, it's almost like you've got to let go of those tips in order to flirt effectively. You've got to let go. And just be yourself, like, oh my God, I've just watched the White Lotus. And it's that great speech with what the Jennifer Coolidge does. And it's all about like, I just want to let my crazy hang out,

and I want to show you the corner of my onion. It's a great show. And that's kind of, I think, once you let go, of like, oh God, I've got a... Sorry, it's been four minutes and I'm touched my own lip. I think you've... You're not focused then

on the other person. No, exactly. And also everybody responds differently to everything. So, like, you are just trying to find somebody who, for example, is like, it's cool that you had nachos rather than being like,

why have you eaten nachos? That's weird, for example. Or, like, I think no one is looking at someone and going like, I really liked them, but they didn't touch their lip so I don't think they're interested.

Like, that's not a thing. A no, this is not happening up here. But a very crucial thing that we haven't said, and I'm conscious of time is that like this whole thing because it's such like a nebulous nothing, no not nothing

a nebulous intense process and when you were single you're just like I just want to partner up what no one's ever thought that sentence but like I'm not a partner up with a mate but like it's so easy to become it's almost like when you are really having a bad time

you get more into horoscopes because you need some order in the chaos and so when you are like Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yes. You read a tarot when you've thrown a thing. Very, feeling very seen right now. Yes.

Yes, and as I would, as a Virgo with a Mercury rising, okay? Obviously. Very vulnerable at the moment, thank you, Stevie. Yes. But when you are, I'm sort of struggling with it, you'll be more likely to read these tips and kind of read more into them than you need to. When actually, all you probably needing to do

is to just beat me, yourself, but genuinely, You want to find somebody that isn't kind of like, that whole thing of, like, so I've got a friend who's like, single, very good at dating, and she's always like, well, never text someone back within three days of the date. And it's like, you're like, yeah, or do? Because then they'll know you like them. So it's that sort of thing. If someone doesn't text you for three days, for example, and that's like quite a common rule,

if someone didn't text me for three days, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm not interested in them. So why would you make someone feel like they're not interested? I think we're all like, let's be over all of that, like, oh, you know, I've shown my wrist and why hasn't you got to stick out, you know what I mean? Certainly. A memoir for our times, yeah. To actually treat the person that you, if you meet someone who are like, they're great, just sort of treat them like you kind of want to be their friend.

Because then that will kind of, then they'll get to know actually you rather than like, well, it's in a neck a lot, but I don't know what our interests are, to be honest. That's exactly. That's why all our things come with a caveat of being like, please do not practice these in the wild. Yeah, all of those tips, no. No. No. The thing is just like, trust your instinct. be like, yeah, I think this person,

I think there's electricity here, I think there's something, I'm feeling the chemicals, I think you are, and I'm carrying on, being nice. I think like the game, for example, the book that came out of 2004. Don't follow the game. It was a men's dating book for like, how to get any woman to sleep with you,

and it was a lot about stuff about, like, nagging. Be mean to her, so she's like, I would like that. I would like that, please. Negging was sort of saying like, oh, I like your top, like, I've seen three other girls wearing it, and you're like, I want to have sex with you. And you're so much like,

nice, but Matt? And you're like, do I guess I want to sleep with you? I think it might, you know, obviously it has some level of success rate, which is a very depressing success rate, which will be for people who are very insecure, and also will sleep with them once and then just feel terrible.

So it's not like, it's not actually a long-term solution. No, that's the thing. You could probably give a good go at tricking somebody into sleeping with you this evening if you fancied. And quite right, these ladies are going to give it a go. Yes, off you girls. Good luck.

they've heard enough, they're out of here. To the bar. But if you want a long-term relationship, it's got to be founded on a proper attraction and those pheromones and that spark and being like, oh, we're really cool, two cool people. You can trick someone into one night. You can't treat someone to loving you.

Just to come hurtling towards the end, I will simply share that if you wish to practice some of these, or if you're feeling out of practice, or in your long-term relationship, and I don't remember how to do any of this stuff. I've just got out of the long-term relationship, sorry. As opposed you're in one, you're like, I want to feel alive.

I want to cheat. Don't. Do, by all means. May I suggest the Apple store option? What is it in the Netherlands with the Apple? No, no, sorry. The actual iPhone Apple store. Okay.

Everyone in there wants to flirt with you. Option? They just want to help you like fix your phone? No, no. Okay. I now see why you think that you've been flirting with lots of people. Right, I understand. You've been to a shop? Yeah.

Right, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah. Just, you know, feel a little bit, you know, alive. Maybe it's sort of pre-drink, Apple Store, the bar, option. Okay? The genius bar. Yeah. Was that an actual tip go to the Apple Store?

Yeah, that's my actual tip. Okay, I thought you were joking. That's great, that's really good. Yeah, that's my actual team. Any more of those tips? Uh, yeah. Some shops. Okay, I'll show you this.

When I was at school, uh, just to say like, just be yourself. You don't have to say all the lines or be weird. Is this a moment where you were weird and then the person rejected you because I don't think that's a good place to send on? It's simply to say, don't do that. Okay, at a party I was about 17

and I had been dancing with a stranger on the dance floor and I think Straitly Come Dancing had just sort of hit, well quite. It's straightly coming. Whoa, remember it, you know? Gone, of course now. Too old for BBC.

Anyway, this was early street. Straitly come dancing. And there was a dance floor and... I've never watched Strait because that sounds like entire mental. Never? No. Sorry, I didn't need to interject. Please. Okay, so I'm on the dance floor.

I've just met this boy. We're dancing and we're dancing like Strictly Come Dancing. We're doing the tango. We're doing the bits. Wow! That's never happened to me. Wow. Yeah, right?

Wow. Well, you're in the cupboard. Too busy at the party. Sorry, I was in the inn and art. So, you're busy. So we're dancing. We do this. And then at the end of it, he says,

can I get your number? Right, there couldn't be a clearer, like, I wish to pursue you, and instead of giving him my number or anything, okay, also important point, the film Coyote Ugly had just come out. Oh, seminal text. Oh!

And I said, and I quote, I'm a coyote, if you want me, you'll find me. There's no water at this bar, which would have been... There's no water at this bar. Yeah. What did that mean? What did it mean? As he was like, and then I left the party.

Did he find you? No, of course he didn't fucking find me. What was that? What? So what I'm saying is, do not just do the stuff, don't just repeat the things that you've heard that were, just truly be yourself. And, yeah.

But also, a bit of fun to experiment, you know. Yeah, had to go. Had a go. And it worked in a way. I mean, it didn't work because you didn't actually. But it wasn't. It didn't work, Steve. And then you felt good saying it.

And then you were like, cool. And then you're like, oh, shit. But, like, in that moment. It did feel cool in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, I think, like, that's what makes me feel good. But, like, flirting doesn't have to be like,

this thing that like has to end in marriage. Like that's the Victorian era and the Netherlands with their apple and the sacks. Like you're fine. It sounds like like the bulls like, that's a Hessian sacks. Is it like, it can just be like a fun hobby, a fun nice thing. As long as nobody, as long as you're not like leading people on, that's like two people can have a nice like flirt and then just move on. And it sounds like that's what you did.

And I'm really, and also those stories of you being that young doing that obviously led to you being very comfortable with flirting. Yeah, you're right. I had to get out my system early on. Quite physically in a cupboard. So my friends were like, where's his number? And I was like, I said I was a guy. He was like, what's a hyena wolf? He's not seen the film.

And they were like, yeah, crucially, he hadn't seen the film. What did he think I was saying? Absolutely nuts. I think my very last thing to end on is to say, don't do that. And be yourself and to, you know, if you, I cannot recommend enough learning a cool trick. That's come in very late, isn't it? Yeah.

I have decided I've got one. Last minute. Last minute. Actually one trick and it's magic. Yeah, sorry. Okay, what's your trick? No, I haven't got one. You can do the cup thing from that film. Okay, I can do the cup thing from pitch perfect. I cannot tell you how much men don't like that.

Yeah, I don't doubt that. Oh, they hate it. So that's a magic trick. Learning to open a beer bottle with something that isn't a bottle opener. Anything will do. Like your butt. Ideally, but I would be impressed.

I'm the guy that you said before we did the show. He just opened it by kicking his foot up or something. He can, I know a boy who can, holds two beer bottles, one upwards and one downwards, and then he kicks one with his foot in a cool way, and the bottle piss pops off. I was like, yeah, I'll sleep with you.

Yeah. That's the top tip of her shit. That's incredibly impressive. When I was like 14, I was like with some friends and one of the guys there was like, I couldn't open the, I couldn't open the Smir-off Ice. And he took it off me and went like that

and just smashed it against the wall but the whole thing smashed. I never spoke about it. I slept with anyone at that point, but I was just like, that was like four pounds. What was what was that was gold dust? You only had one at the party.

And actually, to mind, he's probably done it before and it's worked. So fair play to him. But that's the thing. If that shit works, oh, baby. Do try it, yeah. So I cannot recommend enough

going home, sitting in your bed for hours, on end, learning any trick. We can't offer you any more. That's it. That's it. Kick you up. All the science and all the human history and open a bottle of something that's not bottle. Any of the chemicals.

Thank you so much for coming tonight. Thank you so much for listening. I'm sure you've not learned much, but it has been entertaining, hopefully. And we'll be back next week. Sadly, not live. This is, we'll be like every week. Oh yeah. Guys, we didn't be able to do this

for a year. This has been It's been like two years since we've done it. This is such a joy to do and it is so nice. Didn't think anyone had come. Thank you so much. It was so nice that you're here. Especially the people that don't know

what the podcast is like, absolutely. I hope you had a good time. If you've absolutely no idea what this is, you can find us if you'd like, maybe like, fuck no. I think you should just say where you find your podcast. We've written a book.

We've written a book. We've read a book. I forgot about that. Quite right. So if you would like, you can, It's not out yet, otherwise we'd be hawking our wares and throwing it out to me. It doesn't come out till November. We're going to do a launch party.

I hope you'd all like to come. Oh my God. It's so fun. We're going to be so fucking fun. Oh my God. Guys, between now and November 4th, we are all going to practice opening something. Imagine the launch. People just open it.

We'll do a little show. Oh, it would be lovely. The launch. Yeah, come. And it'll be a waterstones. I love it. And we'll ruin some books. They'll be absolutely curious.

Basically, we've been told that it's very important that people pre-order it. And then on the day that people. release the book. None of the pre-order links worked and one of them went to a book about bread. It wasn't just a link about bread. It was called How to Eat Bread. 21 nourishing ways to read the Bible. Pre-order it. Like, oh, I wonder what? Stockard. How to Eat Bread. Sales through the roof. So good for her. So if you think this could translate to a book, then please do, you can go on our Twitter at Nobody Do Panic Pod and we've got all the links there. And also, follow us at Nobody to Panic Pod. And I'm at StevieM at the S instead of an S. It's a five. I regret it.

Mine's at Tesa Coates, all letters. Imagine that. Imagine having your own name with no weird numbers in it. You didn't know, you were an early adopter. I was, and I loved the boy band five. Let's all go to the bar. Yeah, and if you're listening, you can't come to the bar. You can't. You come to the bar anyway.

And good night. Goodbye. Bye.