Nobody Panic - How to Have a Conversation

Episode Date: February 23, 2021

Been so long since you saw your friends that you’ve forgotten how to talk? Worried about chatting to friends with different pandemic views to you? Stevie and Tessa look at how to get back into socialising when the restrictions ease and we’re able to talk face to face again with people we love (and people who may or may not have gone to illegal raves). Want to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Welcome to Nobody Pappy Voice, Stevie. And me, Tessa.

Normal voice. Normal. Not feeling normal inside. Normal. Well, listen, at this point in the proceedings, take what you can get, do what you can, do your best. Yeah. I've got a face full of cold. And I don't know, but there's nowhere else on my body.

I feel absolutely fine. It's just in my nose. un-lo-road. My grandma say, I feel all right in myself, but it's coming out with those. The face is a mess. Just new, gentle, like, but concerning deterioration, I think. Oh, yes, that's the name of the...

That's the name of the game. The name of the day. Just look at yourself and being like, gosh. Oh, no. But yes, apologies if you're listening, being like, oh, I wish that girl would just like stop talking. Unfortunately, I am going to be talking. She's going to be here for the whole thing, unfortunately. I sound unfortunately incredibly weary.

But today is a good episode. I'm looking forward to it because it's one that I think it's very apt for the moment when I haven't really spoken to anybody in a long time. So when we come back out of lockdown and when we are able to speak to people again, I think my chat is going to be very bad. Yes. This one is how to make conversation. and I think it's going to be necessary for everybody

because at this point, at this point, we've all gone absolutely mad and nobody knows how to communicate anymore. And we're all just, I think we've all just completely lost the plot. And I saw my friend, I saw my friend Jack the other day in the park

and our other friend at a distance and we were exercising everybody. But we just shouted information at each other. like everyone was just talking no one was and just saying things and then like we left and I was like I was like I was jack and I was like don't know I literally don't know everyone just like said stuff at such a high manic pitch and oh I just yeah we've all we've lost the skill but I think first of like it's going to come back to us we're adaptable species we'll get back in the flow of it so don't panic that it's not there right now but here are some you know tips some tips

I also think it's going to be difficult because there was there has been numerous instances over the life. We're obviously recording from the United Kingdom, but this will be the same, I'm sure, across the world. But there have been instances here where people have responded, let's say, people have responded differently to the situation that we're in. and that can breed a certain level of awkwardness as well on both sides. So if you have, for example, bent the rules of the pandemic and you're talking to somebody who you presume hasn't, but you don't want to be like, have you also been the rules? Because then they'll be like, no, because I'm, you know,

and then suddenly you're in a very awkward situation. So I think there is also an added element of tension. It's so much up to that. Absolutely. And I think we talked about this before about trying not to throw shade up or down but wherever you sit in the line you think everyone above you is insane

and you think everyone below you is insane. You think everyone doing less is crazy and everybody in Newmore is properly crazy and so the chances of you hitting somebody of hitting someone are high and of hitting somebody who is exactly on your wavelength about what is and is not acceptable

you know is going to be low. But there are you know there are ways that you can continue to chat without feeling. But of course as well, there are, well, we'll get into it, but there are situations where you might be like, well, this has shown me, you know, a new side of somebody that I didn't want to see.

And that's also okay. Like, that's absolutely okay as well. So before we get into it, let's do, as we normally do it at the start of an episode, we'd like to say which adult thing we've done this week to make ourselves feel a little bit more grown up. What adult thing have you done this week? Mine is so basic and from 2007.

Right. Yeah, all right, I'll take it. What do you think it is? From 2007? You'll never get, you'll never guess. No, I don't think I knew you in 2000. I think you hung out. Exactly.

No way. Oh, an og boot. Yeah. So you bought an og boot in 2007. That's your adult thing. Yep. My ag boot, you know, it was more like, you know, everyone was like, I'd imagine people today are like, ugboos, who's got an hug boot?

but in 2007, they were the peace of resistance. I had been thinking I needed a pair of, I don't really like the idea of slippers. I think they are like, I don't like dressing gowns either. And no shade if you do, I just personally don't. No, I know people love them.

I just, for some reason, I don't know, I don't like it. And I can't explain why. And I feel the same way about slippers. But then I have been getting into, it's been deep winter and my ankles are cold. I dug these out from the attic, where their soul was completely warm.

thin. I was like, oh, forget it. What's the point of these? They're not sheepskin anymore. I bought a sheepskin liner and put them in for very little money. And then it's not, and then now I've got a whole new pair of boots. I feel brilliant. So I, so it's fine to wear og boots, but if they were called slippers, you'd be like, no. That's correct. Okay. I just want to make it very sure. I won't be asking any further questions. That's absolutely fine. Anyway, I didn't have to buy a new pair of flippers. I rebuilt and repurposed and I feel fantastic. That's very good.

What's yours? Mine is that. So it's a skin, a skin moisturizing based one. Quite dull, but also is it? Please. I've used, I have quite dry skin and so I've used eight-hour cream. It's very... Nivia.

It smells like bacon. No, no, no. Elizabeth Arden and I've used that for a long for years and years to orange orange yes it's like an orange paste goes like it sounds harrowing looks like something you put on a cow's udder yes well yes I've not actually got a lot of experience in that but as something you can imagine it I can't imagine it yeah stays on for eight hours and is very moisturising also I thought and then I did a job and the woman who's doing my makeup was like oh you've got like a little bit of dry A bit of dry bits on your chin.

I was like, oh, I know. I battle it. I battle it daily. And told her that I used eight hour cream. And she said, oh, no, no. Anything with petroleum jelly sinks in and then makes your skin dry so you want to use it again. So it actually is versus things like Vaseline and eight hour cream and anything. So if you look on your moisturiser, it has petroleum jelly in it, it's basically getting your skin addicted to it and not very good.

So she, also as well, it's our cream, it's like 30 pounds. It's really expensive. And I've begrudge paying that amount every time. And she said what you need to get is you need to get this thing called, might mispronounce it, Walida. So it's like W-E-L-E-D-A, skin food. And it's set like seven pounds. And I got it. And it's amazing. So I now have a new moisturizer that is delicious. It smells so nice. And so it's not perfumed or anything. So yes, I'm now. two weeks in and I feel like a new skinned woman. Spell it again for those words at the back? W-E-L-W-E-L-E-A. Willida or Wellida? Yeah. Oh, well done. Great conversation about our adult things.

Great conversation, Stevie. It feels great to communicate with you and touch base and have this scintillating and dazzling. conversation with you. Let's move that into our actual lives. I think the first thing that I think is, I think that's something that's really people, when you do call your friends or call your family or call anybody, is we're like, how are you?

And then automatically, because we're idiots and British, we're saying like, oh, fine, how are you? Whereas really the answer is like very bad actually. Yeah. And how are you is like way too big a question. And so something my friend Louise has been doing when she calls us to say, how are you today, which is so helpful and such a useful thing and something I've been trying to do with people.

Because how are you is impossible. But how are you today is like, okay, I can answer that or I can talk about my day, you know? I can say what happened today. Yes, that's very true. It makes it more specific. So you're not just like you're not trying to condense the last, you know, month in one. I mean, that's kind of good in general, isn't it?

Even not just during a pandemic or the tail end of a pandemic. Is that like even when you just in the future are seeing people, because sometimes, you know, you don't see people for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. Yeah. And even when it's fine and you're all just living your lives, there's so much to condensing that one question about like how are you like, well, you know, one week wasn't good, one week was good. Then I mean, like, I've done anything in my life. I don't know how to, there's not, I've got nothing to say.

So you just kind of back out, they're kind of like, yes, I'm fine. It's just the sound of somebody backing away from the question. Backing away. Got him panicked. Exactly right. And like I think quite often about my really, really good school friend who I do see, I do speak to regularly, but I, no, I rephrase, really good school friend who I speak to once a year, who lives in Israel.

And once on one of our conversations, I had said, like, oh, I've stopped working for, I've stopped writing for Sainsbury's. And then she said, what's Sainsbury? I was like, okay. So it's like coming in at like season seven of something and being like, okay. So and then I just was like, I haven't, I can't even, it was such like, oh my God, there's so much. It just felt like a gaping wound between us, you know. And so, and I also think about somebody who.

A gaping wound between us. Just sorry. It's been a pop in there and be like, chasm? Sure, a chasm. Yeah. It just like, you both start either side. of a wound like what's that? Whose is that?

Okay, it felt like we were touching fingers across like a pond or something. We were like, yeah, there's a pond here. You were in different countries. It's been a, you know, we haven't seen each other face to face for a long time, but we're still touching fingers. And then someone says, oh, she says, like, I'm married and I'm like, to who? And then the pond just becomes an ocean, you know. But if you can, you know, the more you can do like, how are you today?

the small questions, the more that pond can be, can close. And I think a lot about the friend or maybe simply acquaintance who said to you once, how is your, how is your nacho blog going? Oh my God. And I was like, oh, in 2010, the one I did for six months. Same? Yeah. Stevie wrote a very, if I may, very humorous blog in which she compared and contrasted

nachos from the greater London and wider area. And it was very funny. but when somebody references something that is so old to you, it does make you think like, oh, forget it, what's the point in this? Like, just let's abort, abandon ship on this, you know. But it doesn't have to be that way. That's just people, if I may, it was a worthy question.

Your Nacho blog was very funny, you know? Yes, and it remains so. And remains so. It is, that can feel like a big alarm as well. Like, oh, we have grown apart. but actually it doesn't have to be because it's something quite nice when somebody says, in that instance,

when they asked about that, I went in and was like, okay, and they're just getting like a real quick summary of my entire career of the decade. Then we had something to talk about because it was like, oh, right, so you did this and they did this, and then they kind of like summarised theirs

and then you can kind of, you're going to spend a lot of time, obviously, having to catch up with things, but also they can meet you at where you are now rather than have to know literally everything that's happened before now. So it sort of becomes a different kind of friendship. And it can be, so even like taking, for example, that this last year, it can feel, you know, people have had very, very, both flat and dull,

or incredibly eventful, or very traumatic or very different lives than they did before. And so you can both come at it being like, well, what's like, what has your life been? Like, what is your day to day been? what have you, but it doesn't matter if it's been very different because you can just meet, it's almost like you just meet and pick up where you left off sometimes, you can do that. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. You can very quickly and easily build a bridge over that gaping chasm. I think it's pronounced chasm. No, you're joking.

No, I'm serious. I'm so sorry, it just happens to be this metaphor slash analogous, that's whatever it is, is it's caused you a lot of trouble today. It's chasm. Yes. Oh, God. What I would say about making a conversation is that everybody is in the same boat. So people are feeling that way about you, just like you're feeling that way about them.

So there's quite a nice way around it of acknowledging, just acknowledging the strangeness of how, oh, like, we're all together chatting again and being like, okay, highlights, low lights. high lives are this is it is low lights are lost my job but got another job like you know what I mean like giving people like a little fun rundown so that everyone's up to speed and also in doing so it signals that you're aware that there's just too much this is so much and so it kind of it kind of pushes the elephant out of the room slightly

the more that you can point at that elephant and go I've gone absolutely mad and I assume you have to you know that's an elephant that's an elephant I hope you can see him is, you know, as soon as you can name him, then he'll just trundle off that like, you know, don't go into it being like, this is fine, fine, this is fine. We're catching up like normal people speaking at a normal volume. I think just be like, yep, we're all crazy.

We'll get back into the swing of it. But right now we've definitely lost, we've definitely lost the natural flow of how we spoke to each other. And that is okay as long as we aren't pretending it's not happening. It is happening. And it is going to come back. I think it's something that really holds. a lot of people back, you know, not phoning home or not, like in the beginning, I phoned home

every single day, just in a sort of like, how's everybody doing? And then it sort of got less and less. And now I sort of phone home once a weekend, sometimes because you've got nothing to say. And you can feel like, why would I call somebody like, you know, or you're sitting like, why would I call my friends? I haven't gotten to say to them, whatever. But rather than thinking, I've got nothing to say, think, what can I learn about them? So switch that pressure in your head that's like, I'll be no, what's the point in me calling? I've got no news to be like, I'll call and see how they are doing, even though they haven't got any news either.

You know, it's not you're a, you are not a news broadcaster, you are an investigative journalist. Or just someone trying to see how their friend is. Yeah, exactly. Easily, it's very, that's in conversation in general, like when we've done episodes about networking or how to make small talk, the whole crux of it is, do you remember, that it's not up to you to be entertaining.

Like, you should ask questions. That's the whole, that's the whole thing. Like, that's the kind of engine that drives conversation is, is asking questions and feigning or actually being, or feigning until you are actually being interested in someone else's, you know, life. And so that's the same with this, isn't it? Like, if you feel like you don't have anything to offer, then just really, like, drill down into what your friends been up to.

You know, how have they been? They will have either been, you know, in a flat with their significant other, is that okay? Like, how's that relationship progressed or they're single? Okay, well, what, you know, how has that been, have they been reaching out to friends? Have they been, what, you know, really get down to how people are? Because even though it is like, we've never been doing anything. Like, people have been doing stuff. It's just been very different sort of stuff.

It's not been like, I went out. It just doesn't involve going out anymore. but people's jobs have gone, people have got new jobs, people have pivoted, people have retrained, people have really struggled and not been able to do anything and feel like they're very stuck. And then all of those things are, you know, they existed beforehand. It's just they're much more magnified now. So you can, I think asking questions and really getting to know what your friend's situation is is the best way of chatting. And if you are feeling overwhelmed by the like what questions do I ask or how do I, you can't just lead by being like, is your marriage

stable? You know, like you can't just come in like, like that. Then just start with like, you know, the really simple stuff. Like, what are you watching at the moment? Because definitely everyone is or reading or listening or everyone is consuming something. Like, what are you watching at the moment? Like, that's a nice, easy thing for someone to be like, oh my God, I am watching X, Y, Z, you know. And then you're like, okay, great. Start off talking about that. Now we can, now the ball is rolling. and once the ball is rolling, then it can get somewhere. Yes, absolutely. Popular comedian Jerry Seinfeld has rung in with a tip.

If in doubt, always go with the numbers-based question. What's 12 times seven? How long did it take you to get here? I'm sorry, that's what he says is a good conversation. How long did it take you to get here? If in panic, just start with numbers of like, If he's panicking, you ask a numbers-based question, even if they're like, what time are you getting up in the morning?

Or like, how long are you working for? Or what are this? I see. How many hours are you? How many fingers am I holding up? How many fingers am I holding up? How many sheep is the most you've ever seen? How many breaths have you taken today?

I think I'd be more stressed being like, what's a numbers question? Yeah, when he said it, I was like, yeah? And then as I like listen more, I was like, right, that's fucking useless. I was like, numbers based. What do you mean? Yes, yes, yes. And then it was just how long it did you take it to get? Like, that's useless.

But I can understand the point that is like an easy in, you know, that's like. Yeah, ask a really easy question. Like, just like, I think there's a problem with people who are chatting and they don't want to ask certain questions because there's certain questions. It's like at a party. when you are talking to someone new, you are very self-conscious of the sort of questions that you're asking because there are certain questions

that are deemed to be boring. Such as how long did you get here? Well, so how long did it to get you here? Yeah. Or like, so whereabouts do you live? Or whether you know, you're like, you know that you are having small talk. But the thing is,

is those questions are absolutely fine because you are engaging in small talk. And the person knows that you are. You're chipping away at the ice with your, I think you've got to thaw that ice because people who say inane stuff about like, the ice with being like, um, if you could do the, blur, blur, you know, if you, what's your

biggest regret? What's your greatest regret? You know, or like, if you could go back in time, like, what would you do? Like, that's just too, if someone said that to be a party, you'd be like, all right, dickhead, like, get out. Just slow down. Just slow down. Like, all those sort of, like, if you read, like, Forbes or, or any of those, or any of the, other number of, uh, hedge fund magazines that I subscribe to, there's a lot of this emphasis of what they've done is taken basic human interaction and made it into this like say one of these hilarious anecdotes. I read a piece about a guy who described the concept of bookmarking in conversation, which was to bring something back later on that you could then, you know, if you were going to email them

afterwards, you could use that as your subject header, the thing that you discussed. And I was like, okay, reasonable. Then I read more and I discovered that bookmarking is jokes. The man's making just normal, basic jokes. And then, but instead of just saying like, just funny, normal, we were laughing together as two human beings, he was like, use each of these and bookmark them in your mind to like, to talk about them later. Like, what a way to live, you know? Also, it's making a situation that can provoke understandably anxiety so much harder, so much more complex.

If you're busy thinking like, what's my next bookmark? Just chill out, everybody. Or ask them a boring, inane question that let the ball start rolling. And by boring being like, but I'll say a question that definitely has an answer. When you are chatting to someone, you know, asking after their friends and family is a really good thing to do quite early on because that can lead to, well, that can lead to you really finding out about how they are. But also it can be that, you know, everyone's okay and that and that's great. But that's something to discuss, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It becomes something to discuss. And I was going to say as well about how, what I said earlier at the start of the podcast episode about how people, different people have approached things. differently and that can be very hard for certain people and I know that there definitely has been I know I've had issues and and I know people close to me have had certain issues just about clashes of what what you're doing and what you're not doing essentially sort of found some kind of quite helpful pieces of advice about how like when this all kind of starts up again and we start seeing people and we start seeing people face to face it's much easier it has been anyway personally for me much easier to disagree with somebody over WhatsApp, but I don't mean actually disagree

with them, because I mean just be fine with them, but in your head be like, oh, God, right, you've done that, okay, sort of thing. Over WhatsApp, it's fine because they can't see you go, oh, right, Jesus. And then you just send like a nice WhatsApp and then like, cool. And then you just don't, you know, you don't really engage in it. Because you don't want to make them feel bad equally. And so that's been a lot easier. But when it becomes to face-to-face interaction, it's really difficult to hide, and I imagine, your feeling. So if somebody says something that you think is absolutely wild

or that they don't know, whatever, it's going to be, we might see much more tension within friendships suddenly because we're not practiced or I'm certainly not practiced at having disagreements with friends because I have friends that I don't, that are very much on the same page. But then the difficulty with this pandemic is, as you know, lots of people have found out that there are actually not as... Very few people are on their page. Yes. Anybody.

If anyone. Most people are just stood alone on their page. Yeah, I think it's just about finding, being honest with yourself, finding your truth and vocalizing it as best as you can to be like, you know, to not say, I think you're a dickhead, but to say, okay, I definitely was being much more cautious. so that's, you know, that's where I'm coming from is, you know, this is how, and to make it a lot of, like, I statements rather than, like, I think your, I think your behaviour is bad, to be like, I took a much more cautious approach. So this is all new to more whatever. Yes, or as well, like, before you, before it even starts up again, and by it, I mean socialising, is to really, like, understand. I think the first bit that you said is, like, so, important, they to really understand what your feelings are about it and to, and to go into interactions aiming to understand the other person.

So there's no, you might have seen like an Instagram post of them in Dubai. You might have seen, you might have known that they've done something, but they haven't said anything, but you, you sort of do know or whatever. You don't know the full story ever.

and so it's always worth not going into something being like, oh, well, they did this because of it. You don't know. So if things do come up, it's really important to ask those questions and try to understand rather than being like, and I think there is going to be a lot of that about being like someone says something and then you go or they go, well, I actually was much more cautious. You're like, well, that automatically makes people feel defensive. Exactly. Well, I was cautious as well.

I was cautious. Yeah, exactly. On that plane? I was caught on the plane. That's the thing. We're in absolutely unprecedented. And I know we use the word impressed into a thousand times. We are in totally unknown waters here, which is how do you socially interact with your friends

when you both know that they have secretly done stuff that you don't approve of? Or you have, you know that you know that they don't approve of. Like we are in uncharted waters here. So it is totally understandable everyone's going through this for so much anxiety. And I think what you're saying is completely right that unless they're literally, unless they've gone publicly Lawrence Fox, unless they've got absolutely

all they say to you like, I don't care really about other people and don't think coronavirus is real. Then that's a different thing. But everything else is just a human being in a pandemic doing their best and, you know, I don't think people, I mean, I don't know.

The problem is that... Well, this is a thing. It's all tricky. Isn't it? I think you've really hit upon it because I think that's what I'm talking about. I think some people... And I think it's, you know, however you respond to it doesn't matter. It's just the fact is that some people haven't done their best and some people have gone far too far, you know, with their best, which is that they've been very anxious and terrified.

And there's not... You can't even say, oh, there's not a right and a wrong or there's not... Because you can't even, because it's not true. So I think, but there has to be, you have to take everything on a case by case, individual basis, look at your friendships and go, okay, well, this person, do I, do I love this person? Do I love being around this person? Were there intentions, if, of course, you know, like, because the way that people will justify, you know, doing things that aren't, you know, if you were to say five years ago, there's a global pandemic, how do you act?

Well, obviously everyone would go, well, I'd act. I'd help protect people. Of course I would. But then it actually comes down to your individual life in the end. and it's very hard as a human being to think of others when you're faced with actual choices right now in the moment that you go, oh, it'll be fine. So I think it's about where's your line?

And if you do draw your line, you have to be aware that there will be really difficult issues with that. And you have to also be aware that your friendships will, you will have had those friends a lot longer than this pandemic. And there will be certain friends that did, bend the law or did or did go a little bit too over the top for your liking and how do you how do you welcome them back you know like how do you find that middle ground and it we can't really tell you how to do it because it's completely different for different people and it's also completely different in terms of

how you know you feel and it's but i do think it's really important to wherever you feel whatever you feel and wherever you draw the line that's okay because we can't tell you what's over the top and we can't tell you what's two lax because we both differ and we have our own sort of lines, you know, as everybody does. So it's just, but just be aware that it's going to be tricky. For example, I've got friends that I know specifically have done stuff that I just think is absolutely wild. And we don't, and I know that they feel defensive about it because I don't do those things. But I'm, I've made a decision that those friends are good enough friends to me, you know?

Like they're good friends to me. I love them. I can look over those things. I can go, right, we just won't talk about that, you know, that. But if we do, they know where I stand. So I just sort of, and it has come up and I, and I just said, well, you know where I stand in like a silly voice and they've gone, yes. And then we just continue. But it's fine, because the elephant has been sort of gone. The elephant's gone, you know. Yeah. The elephant doesn't need to have a full discussion. But I think the only way out of this is total honesty, being honest with your friends and saying, this is how I feel, this is how you feel, this is where

we're going, this is if we think this friendship can survive this, you know, like, just being honest about how you feel and getting those feelings out that are like, I don't, you know, this is how I feel and I can't lie about that. Yes. And, and, you know, and I think honestly is the way forward. Being, like you say, like when you're asking questions, you know, ask questions, don't you don't have to sit and talk about how you've approached the pandemic there's lots of other stuff going on there's people there is other stuff going on in people's lives on top of it so there is like saying like jobs there is relationships there are friendships there are you know someone got a dog someone wants to get a dog there's so there are there's much more to talk about than literally just like

how did you approach this pandemic oh like that's that's not the only conversation you have to have so let's focus on those things and not shy away from the uncomfortable questions if they do come up, but be aware that, you know, each friend is different? Is that friend valuable to you beyond how they coped in December? You know, like, that's a very specific thing. Like, do you think that that friendship deserves, you know, a good old go? Or are you like, nah, you were selfish anyway, so I'm not interested?

and that says more about your friendship rather than the coronavirus. So I think that's, you know, going into understanding what, how you feel, going into it and something what you want out of the conversation. And just trying to keep, I think, keep everything a bit lighter than you would initially maybe feel, you know? Like keep it like, keep it nice. Don't avoid those difficult things though. And let's hopefully we can slowly try to like prod the elephants out of the conversation. and they're making all hang out together.

They're desperate for some chat as well. Yeah. Well, I hope that has been some help everybody, at least take away that everybody is feeling the same and everybody is going through it. And Alan de Botton says always in conversation to focus on the feelings, not the facts. So if somebody says, you know,

that they got a new job and they tell you where it is, rather than asking like, oh, where, where is that? And how long does it take you to get there? How long does it take you to get there? Now there's such shit, Jerry Seinfeld advice. Always focus on like, how does that feel? And how does it, you know, what's it like? And, you know, all the emotional feelings that go with something rather than the fact stuff,

which is such an easy one to go for. And that's it. And then if you, and then just keep asking the questions about it. And they'll keep telling you. And that's, then that's conversation, baby. That's conversation. Then they'll ask you some questions and you'll answer those. Oh, it's give and take and a lovely game of tennis.

Yes, please do email us or DM us on Twitter. If you have an idea for a future episode that you'd like to hear us tackle, the email address is Nobody Panicpodcast at gmail.com and the Twitter handle is at Nobody PanicPod. Also, say hello to us individually as people. I'm at StevieM, The S is still a five. Mine is at Tessa Coates.

And have a nice week. Reach out to some people. Reach out some questions. How are you today? You don't have to have any news. Just call somebody in here what they're up to. How are you today? And that's it.

That's all we're asking. Okay, have a lovely week. Bye-bye.