Nobody Panic - How to Have a Difficult Conversation

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

We all have to be brave and have hard conversations sometimes. Thankfully, Stevie has found some genuinely excellent advice that can make the whole process a little less upsetting for everyone. This episode features a checklist, which is always nice.Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello. Hello everyone. Welcome. Welcome to Nobody Panic. Could you just pop in here for a minute? Oh my God. What? What's going to happen?

Yeah, okay. I just need to have quite a difficult conversation with you. I don't want to have one because I haven't listened to this episode yet. Well, okay. How about you listen and then pop back at the end and see if you feel better. Also, just even then, just saying it, I felt very tense. Yeah, me too. Can you pop in here for a second? Oh my God. No, I won't pop in there. Then you have to be like, yeah, yeah, sure. You automatically you go more casual and like, oh yeah, God, fine. Pop in. I could.

I mean, I'm just a jump in. I'll pop in. Of course, yeah, how's it going? Are you all right? Love your blouse. I don't know if you've noticed, but this episode is how to have difficult conversations in a good way. It was a suggestion. We've had it from a few people.

I guess all of you are out there trying to have difficult conversations. You've got bad housemates. You've got bad bosses. You've got bad people at work. Do you not think, though, that I wouldn't say I have any friends now in my life. No, I agree. That I am stressed by, that I have to put up with. I also no longer work in places like when I used to work in kitchens or working as a waitress or even working in offices where you're like, okay, that person's difficult but I have to deal with it.

Like I work by myself. I only surround myself with people that I like and yet I still have to have difficult conversations because it feels like living and going through life. It doesn't matter if it's, you know, if you're really happy and doing really well, having a great time and you love everybody, difficult conversations will have to happen. And if they're not happening ever, that is possibly because you're avoiding them. Do you know what I think? Yeah, of course. Life is hard. It's a series of difficult conversations.

Join us next week. Life is a compromise. But before we get into the difficult conversations, and we will be talking with this sort of tone of voice. Yeah, to keep it calm. Just to keep it calm. You just. And so how do you feel about that? Okay.

Very passive aggressive, which is one of the things you should not do. What adult thing? What's the most adult thing you've done this week? Tessa, it's a fun featurette. Get on board. daffodils okay and your

mine the daffodils are back in the supermarket they are a pound and if you wait till the end of the day they are 10p and you bought some 10p good daffos

oh yes pop them in a little vase pop them in a little vase oh they're not going to last the night you wake up in the morning oh baby there they are that's lovely opened up get the ones that are closed

because then you have the magic of them opening oh my god the next morning and it's like they've said hello to you honestly I was walking home with the daffatils under my arm arm and I was like, hello, am I Audrey tattoo? Hello? Is that who I'm thinking of? Yeah, Emily.

A pound, you cannot get a nicer bit. You can't get a nice bit of life. I cannot think of a better thing for you to spend a pound on. Than some daffos. Especially because they always get reduced at the end of the day. I was thinking of buying some and just stick with me, artificial, oh, sunflowers. Because there's some good ones. Good ones online. Certainly. And they're very happy. And wait, didn't you get artificial sunflowers? Yeah, yeah. I love that as your adult thing. That's very nice and very, just spring. Yeah, spring.

A pound. A pound, spring. Mine is that last weekend was, I think everybody I know was birthday. And a lot of it was, you know, like now, in the old days, it would be like everyone would do a Facebook event for their birthday. I'm not saying I like Facebook events. The reason is I don't go on Facebook anymore, really. So they're actually completely useless to me.

Someone had done a Facebook event. I hadn't seen it. So then on like the Thursday I got a message being like, oh, it's, it's so-and-so's birthday. I was like, oh, right, well, I must pop in. That would be really nice. And then one of my best mates was like, sent me this one of those things being like, so we'll all be there from like 4pm on Saturday. And I was like, oh, I sent you a WhatsApp. Oh, it didn't send.

So I was like, okay, so that's two birthdays on the Saturday, but that's fine. The first one was quite late. Second one, earlier, fine. Third person is like, oh, I forgot to put you on the list for my birthday. because I text people and I think your text didn't work. I must have been underground or something. I don't care for the reason. Suddenly I've gone from being like,

can't wait for this Saturday where I'm just going to, I don't know, have a bath, eat a cucumber, let's think of what I could be doing. Now I'm got three birthdays on one day, and then the day after was another person's birthday. So I had four birthdays. Oh yeah, sorry, on the Friday, there was another birthday. God Lord. We're talking to five birthday weekend.

That's too many. It's too many. But there is this thing, and I actually think on this, very podcast about maybe a couple of years ago you may hear us saying things like this quite a lot it's very cool now to make to set to be like oh I love it when I make plans with someone and then they cancel before I get to cancel and I can we all know the feeling and Lord knows it does feel good but I think it's gone a bit too far so that people are actually quite flaky now and people use this kind of like oh it's socially acceptable to just be like oh I'm not going to any of the things

and I found myself slipping into that and also I had that done to me quite a few times where like over a week suddenly everyone cantered on me on the last minute anyway so I was like no I'm going to do all the birthdays I'm doing literally all five birthdays good for you I did all five birthdays and I think maybe two years ago we would have said staying in and self-care and that's too many birthdays that's the adult thing to do I'm going full circle and I think it's actually more adult to show up because you can I didn't get to obviously stay late to all of them because they were one after the other and I would have died but like I didn't drink at the first one drank like one lovely gin and a very, I picked a gin, I had a tankeret and a tonic for the second one.

You're really painting a picture here. We're really in deep in this tale. Then the third one was at a pub in Knightsbridge. If anyone not in London, it's the most expensive area in the whole of London. It's ridiculous. Went to a pub and my friend was like, oh, I've been drinking this red wine. I'm like, let's get a bottle. The bottle was 60 pounds. But I was too nervous to say no. So I was like, absolutely, that seems legit. And there was delicious wine, but I drank like a bottle of red wine and was smashed, but that was okay because it was the last one, you know? Next morning, had a little lion, off we are again.

And to be honest, I was absolutely exhausted after the three days. But it was really nice because I felt like, you know, I'd spent time with friends, I hadn't done the easy thing, which is to feel guilty and sit at home because there are too many birthdays. You can actually fit them in if you try. And that was my adult thing. That's so good of you.

Thank you. I really respect that because there is nothing worse than flakiness. Yeah, there really is. It is the 2020 curse. And I do it. And yeah, don't leave your friends hanging. Be there to support. I saw a tweet the other day.

My favorite thing is to see a tweet when it's on the early days of likes. And you know it's going to get me. And I know. And I say, that'll go viral. And then I press like. And then you think that you possibly helped too long? And then I come back a day later and low 60,000 likes. Oh, my. It was, here's a good idea for an app.

It's called cancelled. And if you have plans, if you press cancel and the other person press cancel, then like a pop, like a firework goes off and your plans are cancelled. Right. But only if both of you press cancel, but if you press cancel and they don't, the other person never knows. That's,

yeah, I mean, that's not bad, isn't it? It's bad. It helps, it helps what is a bad part of culture, but we're not going to get rid of it

because it's, the culture of flaking is there because of what's happened, because of like, so if you can't get rid of it, get something to help it. I'm quite into it. I just like the idea of like,

you know, you don't, then it's not sending the message saying, like, can we cancel? Because then I'm like, well, but to both of you cancel. Oh,

no, off. I think it's delicious. It does feel like fireworks and I stand by that if everyone had cancelled their birthdays, I probably would have had a nice weekend. Sure. But I had a nice weekend anyway. There might be people listening who are like, five birthdays in a weekend. I'd dream of that. I haven't even had, there weren't even been five birthdays all year, you know? And they were really fun. And also, I saw loads of people that I wouldn't have seen and had such great chats and they were all really different. And I've never got, I very rarely go to a friend's birthday and then leave being like, I wish I hadn't gone to that. It's always the opposite. It's always like,

oh, I was nice to see there. And it really won. I didn't have any friends, Stevie. Oh my God. Let's get in there. So, difficult conversations. I have a checklist. Well, first of all, let's discuss the difficult conversations. No, I have a checklist, Tessa.

Okay. Difficult conversations. I'm derailing your difficult conversation. Of course. To say, a housemate. It was a lot of fun, but made a lot of doll every night. What a difficult conversation to have. I'm so sorry.

You are making too much dull. But that's a thing. it, just the sheer amount of lentil is actually really upsetting me. Yeah, no, it's less the amount of lentil and more the amount of pans involved in the doll. Okay, so I think what we're doing is a housemate that overtakes the kitchen rather than a housemate that makes a lot of dahl. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Because I would say other difficult conversations, you know, things like breaking up with somebody. Yeah.

Or not even that, like bringing up a topic that might be difficult. Oh, my friend recently told my boyfriend, no. told their own boyfriend that they should possibly think about therapy. Imagine someone just told my boyfriend you should get therapy. Every man listening, you need to go to therapy. Yes. And if you're like, that can't be for me. Yes, it's for you.

It's for you. Go to therapy. And it's not a sexist thing. It's just that most girls have already gone to therapy. And they are more receptive to the idea. They are like, if you said to a girl, I think you can try therapy, they're like, I know I've been thinking about it. And I just, I'm the money thing.

It'll be a money. Or a person I want to find someone like, a man will say like, I don't think therapy. Or like, oh, yeah, I just think therapy is. because I went one time and the woman I didn't really agree with it's like that's not that's just one woman don't go just you've just had therapy with one woman yeah we had one for five minutes and I think I'm done yes no no no go to therapy but say you have to have you want to you want to bring up something massive with a person or that you know is a real touchstone for them don't if anyone follows

am I the asshole oh yes on reddit yes and on Twitter it's like relationship texts or something a ITI I've been following it for maybe a year didn't know what AITA is for. No. Thrill to find out. Am I the asshole? And it will, and it'll be people's, you know, having a crisis. And it's always like, am I the arseal for stopping my mother-in-law wearing her own wedding dress to my wedding? They'll always be like, absolutely bat-shit. Yeah. I tried to do a sexy thing for my boyfriend. He played an online grand theft auto game for four hours and then woke me up when I was asleep and said, could we have sex? I shouted at him. A-I-T-A. Yes, you are the asshole, I'm afraid. No, yeah, absolutely. I think there's so many different types of conversations. We have also, by the way, we probably won't go into breakups as much, but we do have a how to cope with a breakup. We've got how to cope when your heart gets thrown down some stairs as the debrief podcast. And we've also got how to cope with a breakup in, as nobody panicked as I have to have listened to that. But yes, any at work as well, if someone's not performing well, you have to let someone go. I had to let someone go recently. Can you imagine?

Who? Well, exactly. I just found someone on the string and fired them just to try it out. As part of your team on a project. I know an accountant. It's an accountant girl? Yeah. That's very interesting.

I was absolutely, I made myself physically sick for a week at the thought of it and then I did it and well we'll discuss it. We'll see if it's fine. See how I did with your checklist. So, yes, there is a lady called Judy Ringer. She's the author of a book called Very Powerfully Turn Enemies into Allies, the Art of People. peace in the workplace.

Oh, yes, please. But we use lots of her tips, or one can use lots of her tips in the workplace for greater life. Never forget the How to Start a Project, and I just screamed about project management facts. So here are some things before going into the conversation, you need to ask yourself. Okay, so you've got this difficult conversation. So let's say it's something a little bit more emotive. Actually, something that happened with me, not recently, but, you know, geologically recently

in the last decade, I had a difficult situation with a friend of mine who I thought had acted very, very hurtfully towards me to do with like a work thing. And she, like, fully did not see how possibly I could possibly be upset about it. But so it was, so I, there was very, like, heightened emotion. Was it me? It was Tessa. And we still haven't really got over it. This is it now. This is why I'm doing this podcast to really build up to this moment. Okay, here it goes. I just tell Tessa why she's a cow. No. My friend is not a cow at all. It's just, we just approach things differently.

And what I found to be very hurtful, she didn't. And so that makes the conversation difficult because it's me being like, I'm upset by what you, please can you acknowledge, I'm upset. You know, very hard business. But you can use these. Here we go, Judy. Tips. So number one, the thing to ask yourself is, and I know it sounds obvious, but what is your purpose for having the conversation? What do you hope to accomplish?

So in my instance, it was to. let my friend know that I just thought her behaviour wasn't great. I still want to be her friend and I also would want her in the future to maybe think a little bit more kindly towards me, for example. It says here very interesting. You may think you have honourable goals like educating an employee or you know increasing a connection but actually when you really deep think about it, really deep think about it, you might find that your language could be like excessively critical or condescending and actually what you really want is you are emotionally, you want revenge, or you want them to feel bad.

And it's a very, very, it's a very fine line because there's a real difference between saying, for example, I just think, you know, we've been having some troubling times and you're really struggling with something. So maybe try therapy, because therapy can really help. And I think you should go to therapy because you're mental. Like, do you know what I mean? You're basically saying the same thing. Yes, I think, so if the objective, what do you want from this conversation?

If the objective is just for them to go to therapy, then you don't need to bring up. bring up any of your reasons why or like you don't need unless it helps them see exactly if the objective is like let's just stay focused on the goal like me you don't want to hurt them no you're not trying to show them that how how terrible they are as a partner or a friend yeah i like um not needing an accountant i was like i could say all these reasons why they're not very good at their job but i the objective is merely just to part ways oh very strong therefore it was just you don't Thank you so much, but we, I don't need you going forward. Yes, and then if they ask, why.

Thank you. And then if they had, I said to myself, if they argue with me or say like, why, then I will say, all of X, Y, Z. But they didn't. They were like, okay, no, of course, no problem. Goodbye. And I was like, great. I'm so glad I didn't get overly emotional and aggressive and, like, say all these reasons.

Yeah. The objective was simply to part ways. To part ways. The objective simply to get us, encourage them to go to therapy. In which case, it's like, what's the nicest, best, calmest, cleanest way? because you're so right, so many things. When I think about conversations, so much has wrapped up in emotional revenge.

Massively, especially because you're annoyed that your accountant has done this and this and this, and you could very easily be like, look, I'm educating them so they don't do this to other people. What we all won is like an omniscient judge. To be like, good work. To be like, it was you, Stevie's in the right. I have looked at all the evidence.

Yeah, we crave that. Just somebody to know that we're in the right. If you want to part ways in the most unamicable way possible, you have to ask yourself why. I said why. And it's because you once I want to shout, Stevie is right. Stevie is right.

I'll do it for you. I'll shout for you. I'll shout for you. The too much doll in the kitchen issue. If the objective is simply, could there be less dull in the kitchen? Sorry, yes.

Then it's just like, what is the cleanest, quickest way of getting to that? Could you use less pots? Could we work out a way to, on these days, can I have the kitchen or can we work out a way to, you know,

only use these pans? Or is it possible to do this? It doesn't have to be like, you don't have to bring it. Stop using dull, you horrible woman. Yeah, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be an emotional drama or like if your husband is constantly waking you up or whatever. It doesn't have to be, I need you to know you're in the wrong. What you need is just them to stop waking you up. 100%. Oh my God. I feel, I feel free. And also I'm so aware of how many things are emotional revenge is. I'm the same. Yeah. It's very, very difficult. It's, yeah. I mean, even the reason that I dropped the...

There were relatives I like have daydreams about arguing with. Oh yeah. Oh, God. I think that's fine. This is as long as you're not doing it like to them. Fine. Oh, God, I do as well. I have like full-blown arguments with myself in the kitchen, but it's not with myself, it's with the person before I ever have to talk to anybody. Again, then I've got it out. And then it's like when I speak to them,

I can be like the higher person because I know what I said was actually very cutting in the kitchen. Yeah, in the shower. Oh, I've said some things in the shower. I wouldn't want my mother to know. Good Lord. But also I dropped my example of my friend because I was like, oh, I was too emotional immediately.

So I... May I just say, because, I'm swearing so much in the shower, not because I'm arguing with my mother in the shower. Oh, absolutely. No one thinks you're arguing with Debbie. No, thank you. Because I've got, we're very, um, close. Close. Yeah. Very close. So, check this number two. But already I feel, honestly, I feel fixed. Go on. Number two. Oh, I mean, also, I think some of these will, um, we've like actually touched on them in the previous one. But you have to ask yourself, what assumptions are you making about this person's intentions? So you might feel very

intimidated. You could feel belittled. You could feel betrayed, ignored. disrespected, all of those things. But you have to be very cautious in assuming that that's what that person meant to do. And I think that's so crucial, especially for me, the amount of times I've been like, and I'm glad that I did it because I, you know, I kind of at least started a discussion and a conversation, but I've been like, look, you've done this and I don't quite understand why, and it's really upset me. And I know it's because I did this and I did this and they've been like, that's not how it is at all.

You know, it's for this reason. And then it's made loads of sense. And I've been like, I'm sorry, I've shown my low self-esteem to you. Yes. And now I look like a baby crying. And it's very real to you in the moment. But that is, again, because of the emotions. So once, yeah, once you've figured out what you want from the conversation,

you have to look at, do I, do I honestly, beyond all reasonable doubt, believe that this person has intended to make me feel that way? And if they haven't, then you can come into the conversation being like, I know you didn't intend for this, but this is just how, I've reacted to it. And so in future, can we not? Or, you know, so it would be more helpful if we did it this way or whatever. So then they know why you're, why you've brought this to them. It's not just like a cat with a dead bird being like, this is my dead bird. It's like, well, I'm a cat. And unfortunately, I saw the bird. And you might not like the fact that I brought you this bird,

but look, I'm a cat. So could you pretend it's nice? Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. So all the intentions are all over the place. Could you name a, um, a bird? No, a villain. A villain from the movies. A villain, any villain. The most pure villainous villain. No. No one. Well, I'm thinking the Joker and then I'm like, well, I just saw Joker and he's like obviously got a lot going on.

Although that is an actual proper Joker. Heath Ledger and the Joker, he's quite good because he doesn't have any backstory. So you're like, I guess you're just evil and want the world to burn. That's perfect. That's absolutely perfect. Okay, great. Yeah, because I was thinking of Rackcliffe from Pocahontas. Oh, the horrible man.

But then I was like, but really, what does he want? Like he probably had a bad childhood and he like wants to finally have some ownership and claim something and get this gold and like he's a victim of toxic masculinity. Absolutely right. Or like Gaston like the man. Gaston is the best. Like he eats so many eggs. He's not just a pure baddie who's out. You know, he's going to fuck things up but like not just to fuck things up. You just got in his way on his journey to do something else. Heath Ledges the Joker is perfect because you are like, what does he want?

What's this for though? What's this in Adolf? Who cares? In terms of intention. No, my point was. that even though you're like this person fucked me over this person's done this, this doesn't maliciously has made my life a living hell, they probably

did not do it for any of the reasons that you think they aren't just cruel, nobody truly is an evil person is a truly evil person who sets out just to do awful things. There are psychopaths in the world, sure. Yeah, but your housemate is probably not one and if you give them the space rather than you say, I know you've done this because of your terrible childhood.

If you say, I just want to understand why you did this. Because then that will help me and it'll help our relationship and it'll help our relationship. Yeah. And then truly give them a space to answer that question. You might, as you're saying, you're like, oh, wow, I didn't know that was why. Wow. Wow.

I'd given you. She grew up and everyone was always like, you can't make doll. And now I understand that she just needs to express herself very aggressively with the doll. And yeah. And then maybe she'd be like, oh, I didn't realize that this was happening, you know. but if we begin it at a water zone or if I retaliate dal to dal.

Oh my God, you can go doll to doll with her. I mean, if I had like a doll off. Yeah, exactly. What's that, you know? Well, it has achieved like a lot of doll and if you like,

certainly, it's where we've got a lot. But that's the only example in which going head to head or doll to doll will work. Yes, lovely, lovely. Okay, number three, have a little check-in

of which buttons of yours are being pushed. And I think very objectively, are you more, are you being more emotional than the situation warrants? Have a look at your own backstory, as it were. What is it about this that is, to use a very overuse word, triggered you?

Is it something that somebody has done in the past? So are you bringing that to this? Yes. Is anything else clouding it? And often when you're in the heat of the moment, you're like, no, it's just this. But if you are very, very emotional, it's not the time to have that conversation. You just have to give it, even just sleeping on it, or even just having a nap and waking up and then doing it. Like, it's so much better to take yourself slightly away so you can analyze

and then you can come to the conversation at least because if you don't know the outcome of somebody else at least you know how you feel and why why this has upset you and also you may look back and be like okay there's nothing this is just an objectively really not very nice thing that's happened or this is a thing that just has to happen and also especially if you're having a conversation like I think you should go to therapy there's less of your backstory coming in there it will be more your experience and why you think that that person could be helped but bit of backstory you know you might have gone to therapy and might have helped you. You may have been with a past partner who didn't go to therapy who really needed to and that ruined your relationship. You know, many different things could, you might have just seen

Joker and been like, everyone needs a lot of therapy. Like, you could be anything. So just to check in with yourself as to, I suppose that like, my mother and law wants to wear a wedding dress to my wedding, which is a lot of backstory going on there with her. Yeah, so much. And so I think the bride in that situation, rather than just being like, no, and why would you want to ruin my life? Which is how you feel that it's so obvious that this is obviously not an acceptable thing to do to say like I would love to be the star on my own wedding day and I would love to be the only one wearing a wedding dress I'd love to understand why you also want to wear a wedding dress and is a way that we can compromise so you still feel really great and wonderful but maybe it's not why or let's

let me understand why let me understand why how many wars do you think could be solved with let me understand why no one like no one asks anyone that in in power No, we even, and if we do, we do, like you said, be like, I know you've done this because, because you think... You're mental. Because I know you've done this because you're mental and I know you've done this because you think I'm too pretty. And you're like, that's not it. This is dreadful. Yeah, also, yeah, as well, like, this is actually, this isn't in the checklist, but this is just like a sidebar is that, and I do it.

When, like, somebody is trying to tell you something quite, like, poignant or whatever, and they leave a gap, don't try and fill it in. Right. And so, like, I just couldn't, I can't, I feel really bad socializing because, and then you go, like, you're really shy or bad at it? And they're like, no. That's the situation. My friend once came in the room at a family gathering and went, oh my God, that went absolutely terrible

with Uncle Colin. And her dad went, oh, did you make a bad joke? And she was like, no. And he was like, was like, no. And then he just kept going. And then she was like, don't guess all the things that he was horrid about. And it turned out to be none of those things at all.

But by which point, her dad had said, like, all the things. He hates her shoes. Was he about the shoes again? pale, pasty skin. No, no. Yeah, well, you're too pasty again. You're too pasty again. Don't guess.

Don't guess. And also, like, leave the, oh God, leave gaps in the conversation. That's fine. God, I fill gaps all the time. And I've got friends that speak for, I've got two friends I hang out with now quite regularly. And they speak really slowly and, like,

thoughtfully. And it's, for the first few times of speaking to them, it was absolutely infuriating. I just wanted to fill in everything. It'd be like, come on, let's get to the end. But now it's actually really soothing. Yeah, and train yourself. to be a good to let them keep going.

And like, you know, because there'll be a pause and you'll be like, is it me? Is it me? It's me? It's not you. It's not you. Often not you. And people will fill that. People will keep going if you leave them that space. Absolutely. So number four is then obviously like taking those previous things, how is that attitude that you have toward the conversation influencing your perception of it? And if you think it's, that's going to be very difficult to do, because it involves you like removing yourself completely, it probably will be.

but if you truly believe that whatever happens some good will come of it that will likely be the case if you go into it thinking this is going to be a shit storm it will be because you've gone into it with a very defeatist so all of your responses and any way that you become

emotional in that conversation is going to sort of be predetermined by how you were like well she's not going to listen I'm not going to get defensive she's going to get defensive is going to be pointless so then you'll just be like oh well there we go and you'll give up and you won't be as calm so look at all of those things that you've just found out, like how you feel the buttons that you're pressing, what you want

to get out of it, and make sure that you are overall essentially positive about the outcome. You want a positive outcome. You believe that that will happen. Because if you don't, you may still have to have conversations where you think it's going to be bad. For example, if you let someone go at work, it's not going to end in a positive way. But you can go into it being like, I'm going to make this as easy as possible. I really hope that I can, they'll understand the reasoning or that they won't be as upset as I think that they might be or that I can maybe help them to, I don't know, find other options like give them a great reference or like, do you know what I mean? Like try and be as positive as you can in the situation. And then

the final one, which I think is very good, is how have you contributed to the problem and how is the other person? So always be accountable where you can. It's very unlikely, especially if it's like a relationship or a relationship and it's not as clear as like the big boss as I have to let you go. that you have a part to play. Like I found in the last kind of couple of big discussions I've had with a friend is that I found that weirdly I've been bringing a real like, I have a piece of sheer energy to the friendship. So that then that makes me feel immediately like, oh, not important.

Submissive, yeah, in a way, like not important. The subordinate. Subordinate. The little shit, poor. Sorry, a little tiny, like tiny tim. And then that means that I bring that vibe into everything so that I perceive. everything to be different to how it actually is because I've been like oh god but I'm obviously not as good as you so that that's where we're at and she's like that's not that is never what I've thought and this is

very unhelpful so I if I'd have known that going in and if if I which I kind of should have done to be like oh I have a tendency to do that then the conversation could have been so much nicer oh it was nice but like it would have been less emotionally raw and stressful for me so yeah there's those are that's such a nice in there because I think a lot of the conversations we've been discussing are like I have been wronged. I have been wronged and now I must address this with somebody. But it's also possible to be like, I have wronged. I've fucked up here and now I need to have this difficult conversation with somebody.

Yes. And that's one of the most difficult conversations I think you can ever have is admitting you've done something wrong to somebody. I think that's really hard. So if you are doing that, then yeah, you can apply all of those to yourself. The things are all the same, which is like, what do I actually need the outcome of this conversation to be? And it is the person knowing what I've done and the person knowing that I am sorry. And if I'm not sorry, then I guess Pretend a bit.

Carry on. But if you're truly not sorry, then I guess it's also worth understanding why you're not sorry. Like you have to do go through all those same things to be like, why has this happened? And ask yourself those like, understand why have you done this? Yeah, and being clear about like what is my,

what is it that I want from this? And is it, do I want forgiveness? And do I want to be able to get away Scott Free with what I've done here and the heavens to say, you're forgiven, Stevie? But is it that? I have just this person to know what I've done and to know that I'm sorry. And that is probably you can't trick forgiveness out of the conversation

because it's so easy to, you know, to cry and to make up why you are the good guy in this situation. But if you can be brave and be like, nope, I put my hands up. I'm in the wrong. And I want you to know I'm sorry and that's all I can take from this conversation. It's such a braver position to take. Stance, yeah. And in terms of the conversation itself, Judy had like a couple of things which was just like about how there is a good way to go. into it the first step of like having a difficult conversation is to ask a question is to as to inquire

as to how things look look on like from their perspective so if I suppose if it was like the you need to go to do therapy it'd be like how are you feeling at the moment like how are you feeling over the last few months like how you know and then and then let them talk and actually listen and that's 100% oh my god 100% got to listen because you don't be waiting to be like I think you should get there yeah like you want to be like you want to be like like very receptive to what they're saying because they might then give a really great reason as to why they maybe actually don't you might go maybe they don't need them. They seem to be talking a lot to lots of different people or maybe they're actually

dealing with a lot better than I thought or actually the problem I thought is something else. And then the and then acknowledgement showing that you've completely understood what they've said to understand what they had responded to it. So if that is they've made a mistake or they've acted in a specific way, doesn't matter if you disagree with it, you need to acknowledge that, yeah, you can see why they've done that. And then the crucial tip at the end is all difficult conversations. Every single one of them should have this element at the end, which is problem solving.

So whether that is you are in the wrong or they are in the wrong. If you're in the wrong, then you are the one to instigate it. So I think, like, here's some ways that maybe we can solve it. Hopefully, if you're in the wrong and you've brought it to them, you beforehand think of some things that you can suggest and offer, but also ask them for help. So you're not just being like, I don't think wrong, bye. You're like, I just would really like your help on this.

Like, how can I do better? How can this not happen again in the future or whatever? And then if it's them or they've done something wrong or you're trying to get someone to do something or whatever, you have to make it feel like, because it is a two-person, like a brainstorming session. It's not you being like, so I think this and this, I've done loads of research, I googled it.

It's like not helpful. Not helpful. You have to very much ask them what they think might work and listen and then draw up whatever you do. comes out so that the conversation has, you just have a difficult conversation and then leave, you both feel like something has moved on. So there was a point to it and there was a need, a need there that has been met. Yes, I think so much we go into them thinking that what we want is redemption or revenge

or any of these other things or really, if you're really honest with yourself, what you wanted was to have like an absolute blowout screaming match. Yeah, you needed to rant. And you needed that. Do you then be honest with yourself about that, rant elsewhere and make this conversation about being like what is the objective of this thing. Yeah. And accepting that like there is no redemption.

There is no moment where everyone says like, oh, you were right all along. No, there is. I mean, sometimes there isn't. That's delicious. But that might not happen here. Very serious chunk of podcasts. Well, also I think may be helpful. I think so.

I think very helpful. I think also like knowing you're getting your timing right is. Oh my God. Don't do it. You know, don't pull people for a chat on a. When you're drunk. When you're drunk and otherwise very pleasant time. Like if it's all.

wedding. Their wedding, not the moment. You know, any of these things, like, do pick your moment and do do it face to face. Like, don't, if you're going to, if you are prepared to have this conversation, like, fucking have it, don't have a post-it note. I email sometimes. That's really bad. Don't email.

Because email for me feels like it's formal enough. It's like, well, it's an email, so it's very important and serious. I suppose in a work context, email is fine. Yes, but I'm not in a work context, I'm not. Oh. It's like, I'm sat next to them and I've emailed them being like, I think you should go to therapy. It's not that. But yeah, I find, like, you know, it's not that.

emotional things that I look because I write better than I speak. So I'm always like, oh, well, I'll be more articulate. But what I could do is just write it out and then say it down the phone. Yes, that's definitely an option. Someone's done that to me, actually. Written an email and read it out. That's very good and very brave of them. Yeah, that is good.

And also you appreciate it through the side because you're like, well, they clearly care a lot and they put effort in to say this. Yeah, I was impressed. I was less impressed with what they'd done, what the point of the email was. Have you ever had a PowerPoint? No. Difficult conversation?

Okay, cool. Just like seeing if that was like the next step up. But I think I probably will just have to do face to face. I have made a sexy PowerPoint once. Okay, we'll have to expand on that. But not today. I shan't. That'll be a future episode, How to Make a Sexy PowerPoint.

Oh, is a sexy PowerPoint. I feel very grown up, do you know? Do you? Truly. It's interesting when you, because I felt the same when I was reading Judy. points. I felt it made me think about how I've dealt with stuff in the past. And obviously, when you're younger, you deal with everything terribly. And then as you get older, you're like, yeah, I think I think I've smashed it, but I still haven't. I still am too emotional. I still

use email. And I still often don't think enough about what I've brought to the table for this situation. But if you're having it, if you have somebody that you think maybe like would benefit from hearing these pearls of wisdom, if you've got a friend who's just like not putting off a difficult conversation or you are, I hope. that this has been of some help, please do, like, send it around. And I feel like we should end on some sort of joke or I should, like, drop trow or something, because it's quite serious.

No, we're serious, women. We are both fully nude while we've been recording. Sorry, we should have said. We should have said at the start. That wasn't clear. Just to like, you know. I think it's just been a reflective, it's been a reflective one. It's a reflective time, Tessa.

Big thank you to Judy. I mean, she doesn't listen. And I hope all your future difficult conversations are done with panache and joy. Oh. And self-acceptance. And crucially, fucking listen. And stop making doll. Please do stop making doll.

See you next week. See you next week. Bye-bye.