Nobody Panic - How To Nail A Side Hustle

Episode Date: May 22, 2018

Want to do something other than your day job? Stevie and Tessa talk to author, podcaster, blogger and consultant Emma Gannon about how to make the most out of a side hustle, whether you dream of a full-blown empire or prefer to keep it fun and casual.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello and welcome to Nobody Panic. With me, Stevie M.

And me, Tessus C. I think you should call yourself Tessi. For briefly at school, I trialled out Tessac. Right. Sounds like a big business, like a Silicon Valley company. Thank you so much. No, I don't think I was confident. Okay.

And then I tried out pretending my name was Welsh and it was Tessag. Other variations. I had a double I in my name for a while. Cool stuff. Yeah. We had a Cassie at school who tried it out with a Z, 2 Z. Zassie. No, right.

Instead of the airs, honestly. Cassie, then, like, Cass, like, every week was a new variation. Like, the Y on the end. Oh, very much, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, Stevie with two eyes. It is cool, but it's clearly not my name. Like, it's clearly not a name.

You're not Princess Tiami. No. Katie Price and Peter Andre's second child. I'm not. She spells her name. I mean, she doesn't. She didn't call her that self, but she's got like three eyes. in there. It's a bit, I think eyes are

tricky. They make it look false because it makes it look like you've wanted to add an eye so you can do the little heart on the top of the eye which is literally what I wanted to do. Actually I did a heart and a star just to mix it up. But yes, welcome to the podcast. Today we are talking about side hustles,

how to get a side hustle, how to sort your side hustle. How to hustle it so hard it becomes your main hustle. And we are very, very happy to have with us the wonderful Emma Gannon who... It's a drum roll. Drummond, her book comes out at the end of May, multi-hyphen method.

Welcome, Emma. Hello. Hey! So she's here with us today. I feel so much pressure to be funny. I'm not funny. Oh my God, don't. Why?

Why do you feel that? Why do you also feel pressure to be really beautiful? Really beautiful and really well put together and stuff. And have like new hair. So that's that done. But before we get into side hustling. I want just to address the funny thing. Oh, yeah.

And say that sometimes this is an extremely serious podcast. Your second book, which is coming out. What's the date? May. May the 31st. May the 31st is a big day for you. And it's called the multi-hyphen method. Tell us a little bit about your book because it's very relevant to how to side hustle. Yes, it really is. Yes. So the book, weirdly, has been lodged in my head since like 2012. I really wanted to write a book about how to have this kind of unapologetic, untraditional career that is not linear. Yes. I've been so ashamed and embarrassed about my career path for so long because I can't at dinner, you'd be like, this is what I do. Very easily.

So I'm like a bit of a writing and then I also do like a podcast and I have a blog. So I feel like you sound like somebody just doesn't know what they're doing. You sound like a jack-of-all-trades who just doesn't know what they're doing with their life. And I was like, do you know what? No, I'm going to write a book for all those people out there who have this issue and actually turn it into this quite amazing thing because I work less now, I earn more now, I am healthier. Like there's all these reasons why actually why should I be embarrassed about this lifestyle.

Yeah. And also isn't that kind of the future of work? I think we're all moving slightly towards fingers in pies. So yeah, I don't know. It's just a book to kind of reclaim the movement. I think it really is a movement. Especially for anybody who does something that's particularly online or owns a website or does something like that

to say that to a grown-up at, you know, a buffet. A soiree. For example, your parents' friend. And then say, oh, so you've got a blog. And you're like, no, it's not a blog. And then you, because then you don't want to go like, millions of people have read my book Because then he's like an asshole.

Yeah, dismissed. And even somebody I knows a kid makes like an staggering amount of money as a YouTube gamer doing like gaming reviews in his bedroom. And when he started doing it, they were so like, oh, he won't leave his room and he's doing this. And now he like owns a house. And he makes like infinitely more than both his friends. It's a real thing.

Like if merely like paying the bills is the objective, however you do that is up to you. Yeah. And if you make something amazing and creative, of course just because you're in your bedroom doesn't make it any less viable. No, everyone should be respected for, like, doing their thing. And I love it. Yeah, I did that thing is like you're furthering yourself,

you are carving out some sort of niche. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, like, if I'm like, I'm just going to sit at my bedroom and do nothing, respect me. Like, maybe not. Absolutely. But actually, no, I will still respect you. That's what happened there. Well, even that lady who mashes her face in bread,

she puts her bread down. She puts a bread down on the table then. She smashes her face into... Would we call it that? It's a lady. on the internet. Sure. Okay.

And so if that's what my teenage child was doing in their bedroom, I'd be like, golly, shall we join like an after school club or something? But then she makes such a massive amount of money doing it. It's like, well, I know, live your life. Why not, mate? I do have a disclaimer on the first page that this book is not about like being an influencer. It's not about even being a freelancer because that's just put you in a pile of loads of other people who are freelancers.

It's about really kind of putting yourself at the centre of your career. I don't want to be like, build your personal brand. but build your personal brand but also do build your personal brand and are we millennials we're millennials right yes 81 to 96

so we're firmly right in there so that was I think a big part of my journey you're great how you say the word journey I just because I say journey too seriously in my own podcast and everyone's like I'll talk about journeys again

it should be a travel podcast there's all time no journeys good stuff actually I love that so anyway as a generation we graduated into a bit of an unstable marketplace, jobs market, whatever. And also, I hate to say this, but I had to write a book that was about, you know, empowering oneself.

Because, seriously, the setbacks we still have in the workplace, the multi-hyphen method is about being like, screw you. I'm going to make loads of money and I'm going to do my own thing and I'm going to be in control of my own income. You've definitely earned your adult thing now. Oh, yeah. Yes. I had to unblock a sink. that's so adult. But I haven't ever done it before.

I went on Amazon, spent so much money on things to unblock sinks, got in there and out came this like massive kind of Racking? Human hair? A ball of hair. What's this? Like your kitchen sink?

No, no, no. The bathroom sink. Oh, right. That makes a lot of sense. What color is there? I blame my boyfriend who has a beard. My hair isn't, you know, wouldn't make a ball that looked like a rat king. That's all. Fosh.

what's yours? I signed up to go to yoga classes. Oh, that is good. I've been to one, and I wasn't prepared for how much you have to do the downward dog. Right. Do you know the downward...

Can you visualize the downward dog? Yeah. It's the one where you basically stick your bum up in the air and then your legs are straight. That's essentially what it is. Yeah. Felicity Ward has this amazing joke where she's like, or as I call it, the dog.

She's like, imagine if you saw an upwards dog. Why would it be not downwards? Yeah. Like, it's just a dog. It doesn't need to be... Very true. Yeah. You can't open your gas at either.

I'm a dog. Well, this was an issue. Yes, I'll say it. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. It's just the moment I started, I was like, oh, I need the toilet. Like, the bad toilet.

Not the bad toilet at all. I'm not shaming that, but I do need the real one. And I had an hour to go, and it was like, oh, I don't know if I can fully commit to this. Yes, mentally because you're emotionally checked out already. Emotionally checked out. And also, I'm doing positioning. that I don't do before, what if one of them...

Causes you to shit yourself? Essentially makes me shit myself. And it was quite hard. And it was also in the morning, which I don't ever do. In morning yoga. And there was a donation at the end, which was to save the whales. Oh. That's very adult.

That's so old. I brought five pounds in coins because it was like donation. I mean, like in church or something. You put like a pound in. And everyone else had brought like 10, 15 pound in notes. But she didn't look at the bag. So next week I know what to do. Yeah.

As in, you're going to find a cheaper yoga class. Tesla, what's yours? I guess mine is sort of a morning thing as well that I have been trying to wake up earlier. This is great. Yeah, thank you.

How? We did a podcast on it, but I don't think it affected me at all. Well, it gave us the beginning of the seed that we wanted it, which I think is part of the battle. Yes. And I've just been reading so many things about people every time you read a thing about a CEO

or we got sent in this book recently. 6 AM. Morning people. Called like My Morning. routine. You're just like every time you read an interview with any powerful person, it's always, I get up at this time, it's my time. I don't want that time though. Like whenever I have it, I don't want it. I just have read so many things about people praising it. I was like, I have to give it a go. I'm going to try and get into a swing of it. I've got sleep cycle, the app. Yes, that's fun, right? I've been going to bed about half past 10. Oh, God. Gosh. What a fun gal.

Golly. And also I've been sleeping with the curtains open. and I wake up naturally with the sunlight coming in. The light comes into the room. This sounds... Yeah. I'm feeling good so. That's a very, very adult thing. I was going to ask you, Emma, about...

You're in a job. A lot of people I know who start side hustles, they start them because they're, like, bored in their job. That's the reason that I got into comedy as well, because I was like, oh, wow, I finally got this journalism thing that I thought I really wanted, but for some reason, I feel creatively stunted still. And all my friends were doing sort of comedy or acting,

and I was like, yeah, I don't want to do it. Oh, I'll just do that on the side. Obviously, it sounds a lot easier than it actually is in terms of time. And, like, you know, side hustles are hard. How do you know when to side hustle? Like, do you think there's a point where you can tell that you need something more? Yeah, so I think there's two different types of side hustles. There's a side hustle that is genuinely something that just, like, helps you in other way.

So, for example, like my friend Tim, who does improv, like, that's his side hustle, but he's not going to make money from that. And he's not going to become the king of improv. No. It's a, you know. It's a creative. outlet. Yeah, and it's like he's met new people and it's brought him so much to his life. I would say that's a side hustle that might, might or might not do much, but he, like, what he's gained from that is incredible. And I suppose that's what I got from doing my blog for

the last 10 years. Yes. You know, I didn't earn anything off that for five years. That was definitely a kind of, I've got an idea, no magazines want it. I'm going to write it anyway. Great, yeah. That was great. And then there's other side hustles that, so GoDaddy released a report recently, people are earning between $505,000 pounds a month from a side hustle. Nice. So it's a moneymaker. Like a side hustle is, if you want it to be, a money maker. So it's okay if it's just your hobby, but it's okay if you want to make it into like a bit of a startup. That's really nice. I think there's a lot of misconception that a

side hustle has to be like, right, well, I'll start a business. It doesn't actually, the idea that you can do something just because you want to. I've got a friend who is got really into drawing classes. So I was actually going to go life drawing with him tonight. And that's like a pure hobby, but he's going to start selling the stuff on the side with no view of being like, well, I need this for my rent because he has a job. So it's like this lovely additional thing. And I think that's something that is not talked about a lot, about the fact that you can do things

just because you love them and that will enrich your life. Well, this is the thing. And that's why it's called a side hustle. It's like you are doing it literally on the side, whether that's like a Wednesday evening or a Sunday night or whatever it is. what happens, and this is why what's interesting about this world we're in right now, is so many people have had these side hustles, being made redundant or had issues at work, and they've gone, actually, I'm earning a bit from my side hustle. Why don't I try and ramp that

up slightly? Why don't I go down to four days a week in my job? This like kind of push for flexibility, I think is really interesting at the moment. The stigma's being lifted. I had flexible working when I worked at a magazine, and I got a few side eyes when I left because I don't have have kids and like, what could you possibly be doing with your day off? And it's like, well, actually I wrote my book on that day off. And that book has now earned me money and now it's got me a second book. And it's like, eight million. And we're like, you need to leave.

You need to leave this. I have 17 members of staff waiting outside. No, I'm joking. Sure. But so I think the kind of beauty of a side hustle is I do feel like it does have to start with good intentions. With joy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think that's the reason why a lot of people don't do it because they're like, well, what's this going to get me? So say if you're listening and you've got a job and you want to write a blog and you're like, yeah, but no one's going to read it. Who's going to read it? It's like, so? It doesn't matter. If you love doing it, do it.

If you love doing stuff, then people are just attract. Not that this is the point, but further down the line, people will be attracted to it. And people will, people can tell when you're having a good time and you're enjoying something. People can tell when you're doing it because you think it's the thing that you should be doing. Which is probably why you're not really enjoying your job or whatever. If you kind of go, you're phoning it in, but then maybe introducing something that isn't phoning in. What I'm expecting people to say is A, do you have to be like wealthy to live this life?

Yes. And two, is it for like, am I allowed to swear? Absolutely. Is it for like media wankers in London? And so when I sat down to write this book, those two things were like in each ear because I truly, truly believe that it's more about embracing the different sides of you no matter who you are.

So I've interviewed like an NHS nurse who's also a children's author. She's now sort of part-time in both. There's like a lawyer who's now a charity worker and she splits her time. There's a chef who's also a podcast editor and he was saying how actually his skill is like editing things,

putting ingredients in and making a story in food and in audio. And I was like, beautiful. The story of lasagna. So I just think, I really hope that people read it and they're not just living in like central London, you know?

Yeah. It's not just a London thing, a side hustle. I really don't think it's. I think often because things, what's the words, spread because you do stuff because your friends doing it, or you hear of someone who's like, you know, doing a blog. So you're like, well, I'll do a blog.

And obviously in London, there's a lot of people. So it might spread quicker. But I think, yeah, loads of people that I know back home are doing, like, making jewelry on the side or, like, selling things on Etsy. Or, like, I think there's a lot of scope for that, whoever you are. Yeah, I mean, I met an illustrator at an event the other day. She's probably only got about a few hundred followers on Instagram. And she was just like, you'll never guess what's happened.

the editor of Vogue, the new Vogue, has found my Instagram account, and he's like putting me in the magazine. Amazing. And I just thought, and she doesn't live in London. And it was like this just example of, A, you don't need loads of followers, because I'm so bored of that myth of like, I need a million followers to be anything.

That's not true. And also, you can be found. And actually, I know that we're in a world of algorithms and like things just being tailored to you. But actually, people are hunting people out and they're recruiting people for different things. And, you know, it's worth putting stuff up, I think. Yeah, you've got to.

And if you're doing something that you love, it will be even more attractive when these people are trying to find you because it's very obvious when someone's like bursting with passion. Yeah. Yeah. A friend of mine is a teacher, her side hustle, is that she's just started this bra company. It's called Amelia Intimates,

and it's for people with like small backs and big boobs. Everything about it comes from like such a place of her own personal, like, there was no bras for me. So I've started a place for them. And you can tell it comes from a place of love rather than being like, I can make some sweet dollar on the side. It's like, oh, I really care about this thing. and there isn't a place for me,

so I've started this, I've made the place. Yeah. So currently she's just like buys and stuff, but she's also like designing her own bras. When she brings that up at a party, everybody just lights up and when people talk about their side hustles because they come of like with so much passion, people are like, yes, tell me everything.

Like everyone wants to hear about it. And they're like, I'm an amazing person, you know. And I really hope that something that this book does just kind of naturally is forces you. You know, when you meet someone, and I know the whole like, what do you do question is really tempting because you just, you do want to know what someone does. like it makes them in your mind.

Always. But just to like dig a little bit deeper because I truly believe everyone has something else. And like we should be interested in each other a bit more, not just like, what's your job? I used to say to people, what do you do for money? And then I couldn't ever work out the... What do you do for?

Yeah, it sounded so obnoxious. Like, what do you do for love? Like, what's your passion? Because the money thing could be, you know, I'm a banker, but it's some... And then everyone's like, ah, and dismiss. And then similarly like this party thing, like, someone says, like,

but I'm also in a rock band or I go rock climbing or I, you know, make... Wool hoops. You're like, yes. The one is making wool hoops. Well, they should. There's a gap in the market. You know, you just be like, oh my God, yes, I want to hear about that so much.

I want to hear about your passions. Once I was talking about PhDs, your project's half done. You're like things that you're interested in. Not your PhDs. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Your project's half done.

Right. And a boy said, oh, I don't have one. And to which everyone was like, oh, no, it can be anything. It can be like just like you're in a sports group or you're, Or one time you thought, maybe I'll write this book when you never did it. Or even like a weird app idea you had once on the, everyone's had an app idea. And like, everyone was like, come on. And he was like, no, I don't have anything.

And then you're just like, you're the, you're the worst. You're the worst, you're the worst boy I've ever met. And like, the idea that somebody has no things in there at all. I bet he did, but he didn't want to say. I will say, I don't sing this book for everyone. Okay. Who's it not for? Well, I just think they want to go to work.

They want to leave at six. and they want to go the fuck home. That's great, though. And they want to tune out and they want to go out with their friends. And I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there's a chapter on the work-life blend. So, for example, you know,

I'll have a bath at midday, but I'll also go and probably do an event that evening. I do love a midday bath. My schedule is just all over the place. And I, because I love what I do, I don't mind answering emails sometimes at like 11pm, but that's some people's worst nightmare. Yes.

You know when you're on W. H. Smith and you gravitate towards a book and you buy it, I think you buy it because you have an inkling inside you that you want to do it. But I think some people would just be like, oh, the idea of blending things like gross. But the techniques of working and stuff, like, we're not all the same. So like personalities will gravitate towards one thing and then personalities will not.

And I think that's just completely fine. Yes. You can scale it up and scale it down. Yeah. You could work full-time job and have a side hustle. Or you could be like, oh, I'm thinking about like making that side hustle like three days a week. How am I going to do that? How am I going to do that financially?

Yeah. Like all of that stuff. Yes, if you're wanting to kind of make it a bit more prominent, what are the things that you should kind of think about before you start doing that? Like, I remember when I, because my side hustle was more writing, so I'd like have my main job and then I'd freelance around it, and then I'd do comedy as well. I remember the moment that I was like, I'm going to go freelance,

was terrifying. If I did it any earlier, I think I would have not had any money in panicked and freaked out and gone back to work. But there were certain things that I think you have to do or think in order to make your side hustle, your main thing. Yeah. Well, I would say first of all, the longest question ever, sorry.

How is the question? Yeah. Check that your employer isn't going to be really upset with you. Right. I think that's obviously number one, just because I was lucky that I was in a position where I kind of got poached from a company, went and worked somewhere else. I said, can I do four days? And I said, on that day off, you have to let me be free.

And I think we're in a culture of just not asking and being like, you know, that's a privilege. And I'm like, it's not actually a perk. more. I think it's your right as a worker to have a little bit of flexibility. Yeah. Because how are you going to have a career that's long and successful if you are just stuck? Because you could look up one day and just be like five years has gone past and I could have done my side hustle and I didn't. So number one is just check with your employer and just be really honest with them. And if they want, if you're talented, which you are and they want to

keep you, they should be like, yeah, yeah, you can have Friday afternoons off. Yeah. Time-wise, this company that I'm working with, loads of research in the book from them, they're on a massive nationwide campaign to make it totally fine question to ask. So they're a company that is trying to make flexible working, like totally normalised for everyone. So that's number one. Number two would be if you don't have any income from your side hustle coming in, I think you need to maybe try and save in some way, like your salary or wait.

Or wait. I think I wanted to have two months worth of income just because when you leave your job, obviously, you might not have something straight away. putting smoother salary aside each month for as long as it takes and then going, yeah. And also I think because you've got this really exciting motivation, it's not like you're saving for something

that's not very tangible. If you really want to leave, just putting like even the smallest bit aside every month, it might take a year, but at least you're like, I'm going to leave. Do you feel those, because my thing was that I didn't leave until I, for three months, I could see that my side hustle would be able to at least cover my rent? Well, that's the thing. You should work out exactly the bare minimums.

That's what I did. I was like, what do I need every month? No frills, just like straight up living expenses. And I calculated that. And I'd never calculated that before because I always had a salary. And I was like, it comes in, it goes out, comes in and goes out. God knows what I spend it on. And it really forced me.

Like, since being self-employed, I'm so good with money now because I just know. You have to be. And you have to pay your taxes, like the VAT bill. Like, all of this stuff I just know now. But with a salary, it was always masked with like, don't need to check, get paid on Friday. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think that's really crucial. And then the other thing would be make sure that you don't get really lonely at first is kind of, I mean, I missed my, like, work friends. And you have to really put that effort in to, like, get out and about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just bathing all day. Yeah, which actually I'm an introvert, so I love it. But a lot of people who side hustle are, like, quite content with their own company

and their own ideas and happy to work away by themselves, But if you're a bit, like, freaked out about doing it by yourself, you could bring in a friend, you could, you know, Skillshare. And, like, if you're thinking, well, my side hustle doesn't, I don't know how to monetize it or, and I want to. And you don't know, then you will know somebody that will be able to help you with that. Or you can find someone. On Twitter, you can find someone, like, do a call out or do a thing. Because maybe, like, that would help as well, not doing it by yourself. Yeah.

Because then you're not so, like. Yeah. And often, I think that people who have a very good creative idea or are amazing chef and, make an amazing product and want to take it to a market or whatever, I've then like, I've no idea how to get it to the market. Yeah, I've heard about this market. Markets? Like, now what? Like, how much shall I be selling it for?

How much do I need to pay? And then, so maybe it's worth teaming up then with somebody who is really business and monetary-minded. I mean, the ideal situation with the side hustle is that it's this like kind of transition. It's like this kind of seamless phasing of something, you know? Like you, I've been working on side hustle for like five years with a full-time job. My side hustle alongside the full-time job. job grows very slowly.

Gets to the point where people start knowing you for this side hustle. They're like, hey, you're really good at that thing that you do on the side. You want to come and do this thing with us and we'll pay you and you're like, okay. And so just spot those warning signs of like, oh actually my side hustle's kind of kicking off now. And becoming my hustle.

I'm becoming something. There's a chapter in the book called Don't quit your job because I hate self-help books that are like, follow your dream. Now that's where the money thing comes in, doesn't it? Because the whole eat pro love thing of like, just go away. for a year and figure yourself out and then when you come back,

then your business will be thriving. What the hell are you talking about? Like, I need to live. I need to eat. Like, and I don't think... And this is the thing is like, during the side hustle full-time job thing, that is a massive sacrifice.

Like, now, you know, I work less and it's great. But like, during those times, you know, what you were saying about physically, you were like, it was laborious. I was so tired and I would work till like 10pm and I'd get home and, like, write something for an hour. Like, just to say, side hustles can be really full on.

Yeah, and I think you have to be prepared as well, to be tired and to put in the hours when you actually don't really have the hours to put in. If you are making something or, you know, you've got an aim, then it might be horrible for a while but not to be put off by that because actually the rewards can be really wonderful. I feel like, I don't think, more powerful for me personally

than making something myself and seeing it work. Whatever that is, that could be like, It could be like rewiring a plug or something or a cup of tea that's good. But on a bigger scale, like a thing that I've been like, I'd like to do that and then doing it. And all of the stress, I sort of like categorised stress as like,

good stress and bad stress. Like, good stress is like, well, I've chosen to do this and I want to do this. And I'm tired and I want to kill everyone. And I hate everyone. But I don't want to swap this for anything. Like, I don't want to stop doing this. And also, when you're doing a side hustle,

you're one person doing it. So when you're in a big company, I would get really, you know what you were saying about creatively stunted, I would be like, why is it taking seven weeks to sign off on a logo? Like, what is this? The logo song. And then you're working on your side hustle and you're like, oh, designed a logo whilst watching Netflix.

Yeah. Let's put that up. And it's like this freedom of time and this freedom of getting stuff done. You don't have to do it. And then like everyone has to sign it off. You just do it. You edit it. You post it.

And I think we're in this world now where like we do have a Wi-Fi connection. we do have, you know, freedom. Yeah, and we have friends that can help us if we're, like, using a podcast example, how do I upload up to iTunes? You can ask some people. Yeah. And not only can you ask people, you can ask, just seamlessly on the, like, making stuff yourself and asking.

You can ask, learn. And Google blows my mind that you type in a full question into Google. So we edit the podcast ourselves on a platform called Audacity, and it's free and it's very user-friendly. Yeah. But it is also quite an overwhelming thing. to look at initially. So many buttons.

A lot of buttons. A lot of buttons. I have also symbols that I don't and sell on and I still have never pressed. I use that. Do you go on YouTube

and it's like some American man in his living room like Yeah, just drag the mouse a copy audio. Yeah. I love that. You know like,

okay, so a lot of you have been asking about the Ken Burns filter. Like how can we? It's actually something, it's on, it's on I movie to make it go in from,

yeah. Ken Burns. It makes a photo go from, it crops in and then it drops in. And then it drops it. zooms out. Oh my God.

Ken Burns. I don't know if he's a man. Yeah, he's a man who invented it. I've asked John about that. Well, what other man has ever put his name to the thing he does? Colin Audacity. Of course. Of course.

Anyway, so yes, there are YouTube tutorials for literally anything out there and the joy of Googling like how to unplug the sink or how to wire a plug or how to change the volume on audacity. And discovering the answer is one of the most purest, like, Oh, I can achieve anything now. And discovering that you're like, you've taught yourself some graphic design. I stole some free Photoshop from a company that's going bankrupt.

But Pixler is there. Like, there are free things of all the good stuff. There are ways you don't have to be like, oh, I don't have this software or whatever. There are ways around everything. And discovering those yourselves or like Squarespace or Wix or any of the website building things. I love Wix.

Like it feels like it's going to be coding. And you're like, I can't possibly change my own Favicon. You guys, now you know how to edit a podcast. Like someone could call you off and be like, I really need you. And then you could charge. A million. Do you know what I mean? Like you're building these skills.

If anybody wants it's, it's $8,000 an hour. An hour, yeah. That's it. And that's reasonable, I think. I have learned a tip when it comes to money. If you don't want to do something, just quote loads. Oh my God. I went to see Maria Bamford live and she talked about being asked to do some like,

who's a comedian, American comedian. She talked about being asked to do some like dreadful gig, like going to a speaking of. at some corporate deal or something she didn't want to do and her like Jewish lawyer friend said never say no without a number so say yeah of course they didn't they hadn't said we do it for free

they'd said we do this gig they hadn't offered a price she said sure $20,000 to which then she like pressed send and then went like imagine that they came back and offered her 10,000 and like and then and then she was like oh shit

like now I want to do it yeah and so that's thing never say no without a number Like if you're not something awful, just offer something insane. And then you'll go and do anything. Yeah. To bring it back to like side hustles and like what you can do with your side hustle, the idea of the fact that it's so visible now and everyone can see everyone on the internet and everyone like, you're LinkedIn, your Twitter about everything.

I remember when I was starting out, a lot of people would put things like, wannabe freelance writer on their Twitter bio and stuff. And you're like, say you're the thing. And with like a side hustle, it feels like you have to get good at self-promote. a little bit and you have to be like, no, I'm going to put myself out there and say like, so when someone says at that party, oh, and what else do you do? Oh, I don't know. I've just got like a little thing that's like, oh, it's like a little bra thing that I do this. You'd be like, yeah, you sound like a mad person. Whereas if you talk about it as if it is your main hustle, your side hustle,

then people will are more likely to take you seriously and then you're more likely to take yourself seriously. Yeah, you just open to being like, oh, I own, I own, I own a, I own a, I own a members of staff and own a building, but you are in charge of a company. Yeah. God, that's cool. Yeah, that is really true, actually, like giving the spotlight on the side hustle. Yeah, and giving it the respect that it deserves, because even if it's just like a joy thing, like your friend Tim who does improv, but like, if Tim was like, oh, I don't know, I just do

this thing on the side, you'd be like, yeah, Tim, what are you talking about? Whereas it was like, I do improv as well, and it's so fun, like, I love it. And then it also opens up and people feel like they can talk to you because you feel like an open, cool person who's talking about the side hustle. rather than someone who's just dissolved into a mist because they're so embarrassed. And people definitely want to hear about your side hustle more than your main hustle. 100%.

The amount of times that you're at parties and someone goes like, I do this and I want to talk about it, and you're like, oh, good Lord, okay. Let's just use a blog as an example, even though there are a million different things that you could be thinking that you want to do. But a blog is a good example because often it's like, where's the return for me? And it's like, well, the return is joy. If you think you have one in your heart that you're like, oh, I don't want to show people or I don't want to do it,

like a hundred percent it's a thousand times better than you think it is. My housemate quietly revealed that she'd been thinking about writing a blog and I was like, I mean, obviously, immediately, and the real sort of tough love housemates. So I was like, we're going to do it now. I encourage very aggressively. I will support you too much. And I was like, go and write it.

Anyway, and then she showed me a couple days ago. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like, your writing is so good. And that's not what she does. She's a teacher. And she's like, yeah, but what's it for? And I was like, who cares? Yeah, who cares. Put it out there. It's so good.

It's for you. It's for you to look back and go, I did this cool thing. Yeah, and I was just thinking when you were talking there, like, I have so many friends who I'm actually not 100% sure what their real job is. But I have so many people who make, you know, vegan bagels or make cakes or make art or make sound software or like do cool stuff in their free time or work for, you know, weird independent radio stations and stuff. That's what I know about them. And that's their passion. That's probably what I would introduce them.

If I met somebody else, I would say, like, this is my friend and they do this. I wouldn't say like this is what they do, you know, because I don't know. I'm never asked what they do in the day. It's just quite a lot about you and also that. No. No. I can see you've got something else to say. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, a lot of people still say to me,

oh, you must feel really insecure and risky and on edge and scared. And like, oh my God, I didn't have a job. Like, you don't have a salary. And I think that actually there's something to be said about having multiple income streams because it might be like lots of small things, but then that makes up, you know, the same. if not more like a normal salary. And I just think that makes me feel safer.

You know, like if one fails, got some more. Yes. And actually, like I said, you know, a lot of people listening might be like, oh, that seems like too much to manage. But actually, fun. If you're listening and you're like, all that sounds fun but a bit too scary,

it might be something to aim for. Like, whereas if you're listening being like, I love my 9 to 5, I will never give that up. I like routine. Then, oh my God, excellent. But at least maybe you'll be able to understand your friends who aren't like that, maybe.

Yeah, but I think. And that's the thing. Dipper towing. I think Dippa to have somebody who, you know, was sort of really struggling with their job a bit and didn't like it, but was like making good money and felt very stable. And then they said that they'd read something about,

it's not about your nine to five, it's about your five to nine. And like, hello. That's only like four hours. Yeah, but what do you do? Shit, well, once I've been to the loop and made some dinner, not a lot. Yeah, but like, what do you choose to do with your five to nine? Like, and even if that's just, oh, I love to see my friends.

Like, well, that's your thing. Or like, go swimming. You'll go swimming. Like those are still passion things that make up you as a person. Isn't it funny, though, that people have always done this. But like, as a classic millennial, it's like, let's put a branding on it. There might be someone listening who's like, I have, like, because the word portfolio career was coined in like the early 80s.

So a lot of people message me going, you haven't made this up, but I'm like, I know. I've just re-like upgraded, like the language to suit of modern digital. also what are you doing in your life that you see if someone's written a book and then you decided to message with them and be like by the way you've not made it up like jeez get a side hustle guys get some joy in your life get some outlet for your anger because actually a lot of people their outlet is like shouting on Twitter

or you know trolling not a side hustle no no I'm not I know I was telling them I was like if that's what you're like I got a side hustle guys I'm an anonymous troll trolls don't know they troll I don't think I think they definitely know I think people probably in a forum okay this has really got out of control what I meant was that if they had some more joy in their lives,

maybe they wouldn't spend so much time. Like you said, side-dying and, like, tearing people down who are doing well. Because if you have a side hustle and your job, no one else will have that combination. Like, you have your own little combination that's your life. So when you look at someone else doing incredibly well in one of those fields, you can be like, yeah, but I also have this. And it helps you create your own identity as to who you are,

because I think a lot of people who are in long-term jobs can feel that their identity has gone a little bit. Like, there was this woman that I met recently. I haven't told you this, Tessa. I feel like this is just for you. But she opened her notebook. And it was an incredible bullet journal, like illustrated to perfection.

Colours, ribbon, illustrations, everything. She's very high up in this company. And like, my reaction was like, oh my, I've never seen anyone who actually does that before. Like, I've never seen anyone who, and she's like, it's a thing that I do. It makes me feel really happy on the commute. Like, she lives a little bit far out of London.

Lovely. She's like, it just makes me feel. feel so happy. Immediately, she'd become more than this, like, face I was meeting to talk about something.

She was like, ah, she's creative. And just the idea of doing something for its own sake is like a wonderful thing. It rounds your personality a little bit. She has her identity there, which is that she,

she's bullet journals, and she actually does bullet journals. Not, she doesn't, like, put it on Instagram and just won. And then it's like, oh, bullet journal. She literally does it. And so...

It makes you look at every single human being slightly differently. It does. You know, you just like bump in someone or, like, you know, you go and buy a phone charger of someone,

You're just like, I bet you have a really freaking cool side hustle. Yeah. Or, like, you're a criminal. And that's interesting as well. Where are you buying a phone charge? It's like, down an alley. Yeah. And I got chatting to someone the other day.

Down an alley. And it was a, no, it was a carphing warehouse. Right, right. They're not criminals. They were just about to close. Got chatting about blah, blah. And then the guy was like, oh, you know, I'm shutting up a little bit early because I'm off to take a course I'm training to be a pilot.

Oh, wow. That's cool. I'm working here because I haven't quite finished the course. and like this is my main hustle but I got a bit of a side hustle and I was like, I just love human beings because I could have gone in there, bought my phone charger and being

like and just not even realised he could have been a pilot as a person. Yes, because we do that all the time we get in Uber's, we could do this stuff and we just like thanks, go on your phone and it's like open with like, hello what's your side hustle? Like you're a person and like we all have side hustles and let's all chat. And if you don't, that's fine

but you probably, that's the thing is like I truly believe everybody does. Everyone has their app idea or their novel idea or something. Everyone's got a side hustle. You have one. You have one. Yeah, you've got a side hustle.

So do it. Do your side hustle. Yeah, and if you do have one, we'd love to hear about it. I love hearing about people's things. Me too. Tweet us at STVMVMVS is a five. At Tessacote's letter. As you know, it's letters.

And Emma, what's your Twitter handle, please? Emma Gannon. Great personal brand. No numbers in there. And also tweet us at Nobody Panic Pod and email us, Nobody Panic Podcast at Gmail.com. If you've got any thoughts on future podcasts

you'd like to listen to? I'm so proud of you both. I think you're brilliant. And I think you're both like those people that I'm like, she's doing this, she's doing this, doing this, so great. Right back at you. You are a walking scientist.

Sorry, but that's not really lame and stuff. No, it wasn't. This is like my favourite podcast. Oh, thank you. I learn a lot from you guys, seriously. It's worth mentioning Emma's podcast, Control, Alt, Delete. I mean, like, it feels like I don't need to mention it

because it's like a famous podcast. And so the guests you get on I like, Lena Dunham, like, oh, cool, who's Emma got on this? Jesus Christ! It's got Jesus on. She's got Jesus on.

I wouldn't be surprised if you did get God on at one point. Like, I feel like that is the aim. Control or not delete. The book is called the multi-hyphen method. The first book is called Control It Delete How I grew up online. Is it how I grew up online?

How I grew up online, yeah. Great. Yes, if you're listening, do it. Tweet us about it. Promo it. Trust that everybody wants to hear about it. But yeah, until next week.

Goodbye, guys. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you so much. and have a lovely week. Bye-bye. Bye, man. Bye.