Nobody Panic - How to Reach Out to a Friend with Jack Rooke

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

Have a friend going through a bad time? Feel like you don’t know what to do or say? Stevie and Tessa talk to comedian, writer, presenter and author of upcoming book Cheer The F**K Up Jack Rooke to find out how to do more than just nervously ask them if they are ok every four seconds, and actually be supportive.Follow Jack Rooke on Twitter: @jackrooke and Instagram: @jackdaverookeJack's book Cheer The F**K Up is out on the 30th July - pre-order it here.Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true, Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Nobody panicked with me, Stevie. And me, Tessa, and today joining us, we have a new celebrity guest. It's this horn.

It's this. It's Stevie's bought a horn, guys. And she's insisting on calling it a celebrity guest. Now, joining us today on the Graham Norton sofa, it's author, writer, poet, comedian. Lover. Lover, revolutionist, fashion. Fat gay. Fat gay

Jack Ruck You know the other day I got interviewed onto this comedy central thing and the first line they did they said

they called me a self-confessed fat gay I'm not it's not a confession I'm not confessing Jack Rook absolute legend

with a book out 30th of July that's Harry Potter's birthday no big deal is it really I believe so yeah

the reason that we're doing this episode how to reach out to a friend is because that is all about what your book's about, isn't it? Yes. So the book, it's, the book is basically a kind of comedic memoir meets advice guide on how best to help a friend going through a shit time. So I've sort of like, I've built it

through kind of like autobiographical collection of stories. So I lost my dad when I was 15, and then I lost a close friend to suicide at 21. And then I lost a pair of Nike AirMax trainers on the Northern line. Oh my God, I'm sorry. I'm just drawing from all three of those bereavements in order to create a memoir that hopefully will be a New York Times bestseller. Fingers crossed. And the thing is, is that I left the trainers on the bank branch, and that is the hardest one to try and retrieve items from. Because it splits, it splits.

It splits. I got something back once from the lost property, and you had to go to Baker Street, and opposite the Sherlock Holmes Museum. It was a horrible scarf, and once it was given back to me, I was like, this wasn't worth it. actually. And then I said, can I go down there? And they were like, no, you can't? And I was like, but I bet it's really good. Please can I see the lost property archives? And they were like, madam, get out, get out. But it's my dream to go. Yeah, I've been to that lost property office so many times. Like, we're into like 25 to 30 times. And so that entire area of Baker Street gives me like real stress. And you know what? Stevie, that really means that my book is going

to speak to you. I just think that for anyone who's lost either a parent, a friend to tragic circumstances, or an item on the TFL network, read this book. I just want to say a little bit about why we sort of chose this one. We discussed calling it. Why are you laughing already? I just realized what a douche I sounded. What may you? Read this book. I think I just, I quite like, I quite, I really want to be one of these sort of faux inspirational mental health advocates, but then stab it in the back with like dick jokes. You're not going to be a New York Times bestselling author if you don't just often shout by this book, you know?

You've got to lead into it, baby. There's no point being humble here because we ain't going to shoot your horn for you. Oh, you've not even said the name of the book, Jack. Oh, the book, because it was attached. I was sort of going to mention it. Oh, sorry. Say another time. No, we were talking about the sort of like fear of like trying to help someone.

So I called the book something that I think has been really like, it's a phrase that I think has been really, um, commodified by the kind of like mental health industry. I call it an industry, like the mafia, the mental health mafia, like the people who are setting the tone of the mainstream discussions on it. And I've chosen a phrase that I actually think isn't as problematic as everybody makes it out to be. So the book is called Cheer the Fuck Up. Because I actually think whilst that is an insensitive thing to say, and often said because people like say the wrong thing and they don't know and they don't know what to do,

I also think it's like the one phrase that whenever I have heard it in some scenarios has been said out of like absolute desperation, that of somebody just being like, I just want you to be better. Like I can't. It's like somebody admitting that they're struggling as well. And so I quite liked it. And it goes against my rule because I sort of hate all books that have got a swear word on the title. Yeah, I was going to say. I really despise them. Is it causing, is that expletive causing problems with the Amazon sale? So basically, I can't tell people to pre-order it on Amazon because Amazon sell it one week and then take it off the next. But I don't think that's to do with the swear word. I think that's to do with the fact they're prioritising essential supplies. And apparently, according to Jeff Bezos, my book is not essential supplies to pre-order. There's what we wanted to call it, what we thought about calling it, how to reach in, which turned out to be quite grammatically confusing title.

So I think a lot of the sort of posters that you see nowadays on the tube and, shit like this are all like struggling like reach out it's like just text a friend like just asked for help and I think we're so good at sort of putting that on the onus on the person who's struggling and being like it's so easy just ask for help and anyone who's ever been in a crisis will know it's actually very very hard to reach out and so what we all need to be better as as friends is reaching in and I got confused and thought she meant that the person who was going through the struggle had to reach in so I was like Where are they reaching?

And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, what's up my back and said, no, they're reaching into their friends. And I was like, so they're reaching in and then their hands passing through their back and their friends behind them and they're touching their friend. Is that what's like I was generally going to. But no, I think it's a lovely idea to reach in out. Sorry, reach out to your friends. Yeah. And you see that someone is struggling is such a nice thing to do. I think it's one of those things, though, because naturally we have that in us.

We have this, like, want to make sure. friends are safe, that they're happy, that they're succeeding, that they're, like, having good sex. Like, we've become a generation of people that want, like, the best for our friends in this sort of, like, aspirational sense. But I also think that, like, majority of us are absolutely terrified of getting it wrong or feeling like we've said the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing or, and I think somehow in the last sort of, like, five or six years of mental health being this huge, like, mainstream conversation, we have sort of become, like, we've spoken about it in such a like memorized way. It's become like muscle memory just to say like you've got to talk, you've got to open up, my door's always open, blah, blah, blah. And then none of us actually have a

fucking clue what to do when somebody does say like, oh, I feel like I want to kill myself. Or like, I'm really miserable. And we've, we've sanitised mental health because it's become such an industry. And I sort of feel like the majority of these big clarion calls and all these campaigns to get people talking, they don't actually ever help equip the people who are going to hear them because, the majority, especially right now, I think the majority of like reaching out or reaching in, like, living rooms or down the pub. They don't happen in like safe earshot of a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist. So I think for me, I kind of, this sounds so earnest and sincere, but like, I was like, why isn't there a book that is just like a, okay, this is how to like not be afraid of getting it wrong because you might as well do something. And I feel like I've written that from like multiple levels of expertise, so to speak, as someone who's been mad and then helped someone going through a mad time.

Everybody definitely has experience of it, maybe as a teen, like they were younger or whatever, that somebody very close to them went through something terrible, like lost a parent, you know, has something, and they just, and I know this, I'm completely guilty of this. A very dear friend went through it, and I just did not know what to do. And I was so terrified of getting it wrong that I'm aware that I'm aware that I just like retreated in this like I just want to give you space like I'm just I knew I was so exactly that I was so completely terrified and as a result in the in every other time it's happened and sort of like to not to absorb as the wrong word but like taking that experience me like I know I 100% fucked that I got it wrong now I'm I plow in if anything too

hello I'm here now you know and I so I would love this guidebook of like exactly what you know how to get this Because once you've jumped in shouting hello, that's all you've got. That's all it for. And that can help, but not. But before we get into it, because I think already, I think it's going to be a really great episode, I think we should maybe do our adult things. Tessa, what's your adult thing? Mine is that for those of you following the journey of me attempting to regrow a number of

vegetables on the windowsill, you'll have heard me very smugly saying that I try to regrow a leak and then I made a winter soup with it, like some kind of smug a bitch. and lo, karma has come to get me because the leak was on my windowsill and a bird at it. So I just, it's got, it's got, the leak's gone, basically. As I was very adult, but one of your main sort of issues at the moment is a bird at your leak you've grown. That's very good. Well, I'm a professional farmer now. So it's really hit the harvest quite hard because that's 100, that's 100% of my leak crop gone.

gone, Steve, I've got nothing to take to market. So that's been quite hard. And I guess the adult thing was how well I sort of returned to an equilibrium after the event. So yeah, that's just an update on my farming, on my farm, basically. Really great. And Jack, any adult things you've done this week? Well, actually, I want to sort of position my adult thing as something that may actually happen during this podcast. I'm currently awaiting a lovely man called shoe jar.

who is arriving in the hour slot that we have allocated for this podcast to deliver my Tesco online delivery. He will be arriving. The doorbell might be rung. You might hear it. My mum will go downstairs. She will retrieve the items at a two metre distance from shoe jar. She will put the items on our kitchen table and she will ante back them for 36 minutes. She will then wash her hands five times. My mum's hands now look like the back of like two rivita breads. They are rough and coarse. And in that online delivery shop

My adult thing is that I have bought three jars Because you can only buy a maximum of three Three jars of mesopaste Oh wow I am going to not just be one of these millennial consumers Who walks around it Going to Wagamama and having a ramen I'm going to be a maker of ramen

I'm going to be a creator of ramen I am going to have a ramen later Be a raw man be a raman because I just sort of think it's very... I've decided it's very adult to make a food that you eat because other people know how to make it, but you yourself have absolutely no clue how to make it good. So I've bought some ramen.

I've bought some rice, wine, vinegar shit. I've got some mirin. I don't know what it is, but I've read the recipe list. And I'm going to make myself my own version of a Wagamama chicken chili ramen. This is excellent. Well done. Really well done. I'm actually, and I think Tesla will know this from our chats over the last few weeks,

but I'm really surprising myself that I am not being like a messy drama bitch in this pandemic. I'm actually being quite focused on survival and survival. I would say much, I would agree with you, Jack, and much like me, just taking that leak trauma in my stride. You've been really, you've been really taken life and just, you know, striding on through. And you know, your Wagamamas is gone for you, but you found a way around it. You brought Wagamamas to you when wagamas. I really have. Stevie, what's yours?

So boring. I don't, you know, I don't drink tea or coffee. Don't like it. Get very hot on the face. Very hot sort of around the boob area, oddly. And I just feels very uncomfortable. Start drinking tea. Decaf, yes.

Drink about two cups. And whenever I'm just doing something, it's been out boredom where you're like, I don't have a cup of tea. I feel so like I've arrived, you know, like I've arrived in adulthood, because I've never been able to partake in the, I'll just put the kettle on before. I've been like, no, I'm okay, can I have some water? And I sound like a child. Are you enjoying the tea? Is it nice? You know what? It is very nice and it's very calming and it's like a nice, it's better than eating more cake, which is, I'm trying to like stop eating. I've just been eating like all day. So I'm trying to like have breaks. It marks basically the end of one meal in the beginning of another. That's what you. Perfect. I need one of those. So Jack, how to reach out. You've brought some tips from your top, tip top book. Cheer the fuck up. Let's start with a tip.

Yes. Maybe what people will want to access in the book. And it's a kind of like how to spot those early signs of people having a shit time. And I think it can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. That with my friend Ollie, the first time that I sort of noticed that he was struggling was the way that he would just leave nights out without saying goodbye. but there wouldn't even be like a text of like, sorry I've left, or like there would just be in nothing. It would be like, oh, okay, he's vanished.

That's quite a worrying behaviour anyway, but it's definitely like one sign that made me think, okay, there's something not up here because you don't just normally, if you want, even if you do an Irish goodbye, you might like three hours later be, sorry, I couldn't stand being around Camilla anymore, like type thing. Yeah. Sorry if anyone. Why do you think, you know, like if you, if you're, if everyone's got a friend who's like, yeah, she just always leaves. And if she always doesn't always has done, that's her vibe. Fine. But if he's like, also like a behavior change, I think it's so. Yeah. That's a real sign. Yeah. And then the Samaritans who are actually a pretty good charity guys, must say, they have these sort of tips for something called like active listening. And I think like by active listening, it is that, like,

exact thing of like we have told people to open up but now we do need to tell people how to like hear those admissions and not freak out make it about themselves get upset themselves and actually feel like prepared so these tips are they use an acronym do we like an acronym girls we love an acronym so the acronym is called shush these stand for s which is show you care which is basically just like actually focusing on somebody if they are talking about stuff I remember, I remember trying to talk to a friend about Olly and then literally just being like on their phone the whole time like, yeah, oh no, that's awful, yeah.

Me just being like, can you focus on what I'm saying, please? So it's like, I think knowing and not trying to use something as a distraction or as like a safety mechanism, just being like, okay, I'm here to listen. Here are my eyes, here are my ears type thing. H, which is have patience. and I think this is something that I know that I have got wrong with some of my friends. I have maybe been so desperate to try and, you know, get to the bottom of what's wrong with them and I've maybe, you know, waited months, years for this admission to happen.

And I know that sometimes I've gone, okay, well, maybe it's this, well, maybe it's that, or maybe you need this. And it's like, no, you have to have patience. Let them speak about it. Let them have big, long pauses in the middle or change them. might like you kind of have to really give somebody the time to go through everything that maybe they have been struggling with because it isn't just something that you lift on the top of your head like so much of mental health and and looking at the things that are symptomatic of depression

or anxiety or oCD they're all like interconnected in quite complicated ways and it takes a while to like stretch out all of those tangles and figure out what they mean so I think like just if somebody pauses, you don't need to fill that pause. You don't need to say something. You can just like let that pause be and and just like show that you're listening and take it on board. Then the you in the acronym Shush is to like use open questions that need more than a yes, no answer.

So I always think this is a good one because when you're asking somebody about their mood, it isn't just like a smash hits magazine. and it's not like a binary of like yes i feel shit no i feel fine like i think it's about broadening out getting people to describe how like things feel or maybe how long something's been going on for or like trying to delve in a little bit more to help them in that process of like properly articulating then s now this one i think you can just independently evaluate whether you want to do this or not this is obviously what the samaritans have written because they're like more of a kind of clinical charity type thing but they put s

say it back. Now I think this could be awful. I think I think you can't, if somebody says something awful, don't like directly say it back to them. But I think it's like, sorry, I shouldn't be laughing when I'm giving the more serious tips of the book. But like, if someone's like, I want to kill myself, don't be like, say you want to kill yourself to you. Like, it's not that. I think it's like, saying it back is trying to use some sort of signaling to say that you've heard what they've said in like computing it and that you get that this big thing that they may have been carrying and concealing, like that is now in your brain. Like that's now in your mind.

You're like there with them. It's not just like a singular secret they're keeping. We discussed that. We did an episode about listening and all the tips came from an FBI hostage negotiation expert. And so some of them weren't that helpful. But that was one of them. But it's actually, and I understand completely why you do it. It makes the person feel so heard and so, you know, really.

listen to, but it's actually quite a bit of a technique to master it and for it to feel natural rather than to feel like you're immediate, like, are you just saying back everything I've just said immediately? Some of us tend to not, so if you're, so say, someone says that they're thinking about killing themselves, some people would then shy away from saying it at any point, like in the conversation, you'd be like, so when, you know, how long have you ever wanted to end things before, whereas you could use the terminology that they've used to show it's like, I'm with you, I'm not, I'm not too frightened to say it.

Like, I'll say it with you. Yeah, you're so right. Even then when you just change the phrase of, if I said, I want to kill myself and you said, and how long have you been thinking about ending it all? And I'd be like, no. No. I know. I think that this is it.

It's so important to help people curate their own description and their own, like, way of processing it. That's the best thing that friends do. That is friendship down to a tea. It is like helping somebody to, like, describe what they love, what they hate, what they want what they need. Like, it's all about, like, you know, helping each other articulate life. Well, the last letter is H, which stands for, like, have courage. I suppose it's that mothering or smothering thing, that, like, if we get, uh, if you get a negative reaction back from someone straight away, the thing to do isn't, like, try and make

them immediately better. The thing to do isn't, like, plaster over it and be like, you know, it's all going to be okay. This is all going to be blah, blah, blah. Like, like, the thing is to sort of just say that like, I'm going to be here when you need me. I'm going to be here for what you need. If you need me to sit with you and make that phone appointment to the doctors or to whoever,

then like, I'll just sit in the corner with you. You won't even know I'm there. But you can know I'm there. I can dial the numbers for you. Like, it's that scale of knowing that actually you have like the courage and ability to actually help facilitate something with someone. It doesn't mean you're doing it for them.

but and I don't think you have to be afraid of that I think so much of it comes from this like fear and that fear is very valid because essentially it ties into like the reason why I think that people in my family were always for example my brother so my brother claims that he sort of always

maybe knew that I was gay he would maybe use the word I was always scared that you were gay but what he means is he's not scared because he's homophobic, he's scared because he's worried what other people's reactions are going to be. And I think, like, love and fear operate on this really entwined level. We are scared for the people we love because we know that there are dangers out there, that there are ways that they can be persecuted or attacked or, you know, made to feel like they're not worthy or whatever.

And I think it's about, like, using that fear properly and calmly to actually help people, rather than use it to like, I don't know, my brother teaching me how to form a fist when I was like six or like him telling me that if anyone gives me any trouble he'll like sort them out. Like, I'm six, you know, you're 18, get a life. And I think that fear drives so much of the like misery that people have and that like, it's what you hear all the time when you hear from parents that have maybe reacted badly when their children have come out. And then later on down the line, they completely get it, and they're loving and accepting.

Like, 99.9% of the time comes from just sheer fear. That they're like, they haven't done something right, that they failed, or that something bad is going to happen. And in the case of this book, and the case of my experiences, it's like, my dad dying was the worst thing that could have happened. Olly taking his own life was the worst thing could have happened. When those things that are the worst-case scenarios occur, then you really can't let

the fear win anymore. You have to just push on through. Even if you get it wrong, there's no point of being scared about it because you've hit the floor, so to speak. And so I think just trying to encourage people to actually have those skills of listening and not being scared of getting it wrong

and then admitting to somebody that they might get it wrong is good. I don't think it's ever bad to admit that you're worried that you might fail at something. or you might fail someone type thing. Like, we're not all trained psychotherapists type thing. Okay, so I'm just going to flick over to page 77 here in my copy of the book.

As you can on it from the 30th of July. So basically the stories from my, like, I've done three Edinburgh shows, and they've sort of been like comedy theatre hybrids. One was called Good Grief and it was all about like losing my dad and it was co-written and it co-starred my name. So my nan, who's my dad's mum, was like 85. She was in it throughout in these little films that we shot. And then my second show was called Happy Hour,

and that was all about, like, sort of young male suicide and my friends and how we'd coped with it. And then my third show was called Love Letters, and that was all about cock. So I've tried to compel the best, funniest stories from each three of those shows into the book and then written, like, mini, advice guide chapters. And this one is called Bullshit Things You Shouldn't Say,

the severely bereaved on the day of a funeral. Very useful. There's a few little, I'll pick up just two or three things. Things such as you don't deserve this. I really think that that's not the best thing to say to someone because it's a bit like stating the obvious. I've also got, I wouldn't want to be cremated myself. Oh my God.

And last but not least, that may be the saddest funeral I've ever been to. They're all things that I can genuinely recall people saying. And then, yeah, and I've sort of tried to put like a how to act at a funeral tip here to sort of support your bereaved friends. So I've said, as a funeral attendee, you should go in with a funny or happy memory of the person lost or alternatively go in merely to support, show your face and help the person bereaved. Don't dial up the tragedy or start mentioning other funerals. No one cares that this is the fourth one you've been to this year and it's only June.

It's basically just encouraging people to sort of tits and teeth it, which I think is kind of the thing to do. And I know that kind of goes against the kind of like anti-British stiff upper lip rhetoric that we have today. But I think when you're going to a friend's parents funeral, you've just got to tits and teeth it. In contrast to those like don't say these, are there any do's on your list? I think it's almost what you said, Tessa, about like feeling terrified to mention it. I think it's just about the one huge do that I have throughout the book is like that. Like, you can admit to saying to somebody, you know, this is really difficult.

I hope I don't get this wrong, but like, I'm here. Is there anything I can do? Like, I think it's about not ignoring it. Like, I speak a lot about anniversaries in the book and, like, the sort of symbolism that they hold for people. And it's just about saying, like, on the day or a couple weeks before, like, I know this anniversary is coming up. Do you want to do anything on it? Do you want to do nothing? Do you want me to mind my own business? Do you want to go to Wagamama and have a chicken catsu curry?

Like I think it's about just acknowledging it and not just sort of like avoiding the subject in fear of awkwardness. Do you feel like that? Putting in that option C, mind my own business is an important thing to offer people so that they can in a jovial way be like, see, please, I'm okay, I'm okay, mind your own business. Yeah, I think so. I think it is important to just sort of like sometimes admit that you don't know what the right thing. is to do. And that's like, this is the issues that I sometimes have with the kind of like mental health conversation is that it doesn't ever take into account that people might do the talking and the opening up to someone who's the exact wrong person to do that to, to do that to someone whose reaction might make things worse or, or that that person might be dealing with their own guilt or shame in the fact that somebody else is struggling with something. And I think,

Like we have to see it as more of a we thing, so to speak. Like it's collective. It's like it's not just like a you need to do this. It involves more than that. What other tip do you have for how to reach out to a friend? Okay, so we're now going to go a little bit forward now to page 129. Follow along at home, everyone. Note that down for the future.

This chapter is called How to Support a Friend on their first night out after they've been through some shit. That's a great thing. Also, I just feel, I feel really bad because I've slagged off swearing in books, but then also both of these chapters have had the word shit in them. Lean in. Lean in. So this is basically kind of like a how to get, you know, a friend back out and about

and showing their face and make sure they feel supported and make sure they feel like safe and comfortable and not petrified and terrified of everything. I've got a sort of a brief encouragement of the concept of pre-drinks I think very important I've also got a sort of warning about making sure that you've eaten something beforehand I think one of the first times I went out after my friend Ollie's death I just got absolutely plastered without putting a single food item in me and it made the next day much worse on numerous levels

so I've put things like if you can cook make a cheap and cheerful pasta bake or if not, buy 20 piece share boxes of McDonald's chicken nuggets and put them in those little goo pudding ramekins that we all have. You can put the dips in the ramekins and maybe just arrange the nuggets around and a sort of nice tribute to life. And then I've also put like more serious tips about like reminding people at the start of a night that like it's okay if you want the plan to change. Like we actually, no one actually has to go out.

you can go out for an hour, say, I'm having a shit time, and go home. Like, these things don't have to be these, like, preset, like, big, like, constantina events in our life, just, like, going to the pub or, like, a night out. And I remember quite particularly, especially around my sort of, like, university years, like, people, like, really, like, I don't know what the right word is, but, like, making nights out, like, the biggest thing ever, like, they were sacred. And actually, like, you can just, like, you can just, get on the bus to them and then get off and go home.

And I think just like trying to put in a plan in place that's like if you feel shit or you feel sad, we can get a bus, we can get a cab home, we can do this, like don't feel the need to show your face or be happy. Or if you go on a night out and you're having a good time and then all of a sudden it hits you, we can go home, like making a plan type thing. That's nice as well because then it feels like, because I suppose sometimes when people are on nights out or I know when I've been on a night out and I felt a bit sad or like I wanted to go home, there's like the gang,

the group, whereas if you've been a specific person say, I'll come home with you. Like, I don't care. You are your teammate. Sort of like at work, if you've got like that one work colleague who's like, yeah, but you can bitch you about your boss to me. Like, you then are not alone and it's not, you're not just like wandering around being like, will anyone go home with me? Because you already know. It's like, free time. Yeah, yeah. That's it. I think it's like, It's almost like, I remember at primary school, we had this buddy system where like a kid in year six would come and buddy a kid in year one. And when I was in year one, my buddy was just like, hey, if you're being bullied for having curly hair, let me know. Like, maybe we can cut your hair.

I didn't know. Oh, oh, right. So that's your bully. Like, but just like someone basically is just like keeping an eye out, but in a way that feels like genuine. Less, less, like, less buddy system and more just like, I'm here for you. Like, you'd never even considered your curly hair and just been like, if this is going to be a problem, come to me. Because if I was a bully, it'd be the first thing I'd go for. And also, I think, like, not putting the pressure on being like, oh, this is going to be this, this is going to be this redemptive, cathartic, incredible night.

Like, it's just going to be a night. I remember in first year at university being stuck in the toilets, because outside the toilets, a very nice girl was having a total meltdown because she'd recently been dumped and the boy had shown up and I couldn't leave the toilets because I was like maybe 20 girls outside around her by the sinks and she was my actually good friends and I did want to get to her but I couldn't get to her through the reams of not actually very good friends who were saying babe we're going to brush your hair and you're going to have the best night of your life I wanted to be like through the toilet door I was like she can't possibly have the best night of her life we're in we're in the college canteen

and they just kept forcing her into the middle of the ring of the circle while all the single ladies played and made them be like while she's weeping and they're like but you're a single lady now oh no yeah it's not a film you could like it's not a film your first night out could be like baby steps it could just be like a pub near their house like the person who's house

but having a shit time's house so then if they want to slip off they just slip off out the door and then they're at home but no one's like we're all doing it near your house because you might have a cry you just do it like casually. My next point on this topic is also to avoid then, in the same respect, being the person that overly checks in on the bereaved person. So being the person that's like every half an hour,

are you okay, you good? Like a little wink from across the bar, like a constant sort of like sort of mothering, a smothering, sorry. You want a mothering, not a smothering. How do we find that line between mother and smothering? I think it's sort of top, like, like, because in, the book I've sort of said like invite them around for a drink before walk to the place you're going to together like like make it a journey of two parts rather than them feeling like oh my god

I'm going on this night out type thing like we all know it if you're going to a party you want to arrive with someone else it's so much nicer um and I think if you're having this sort of like first night out then that's quite important but yeah I think the smothering thing it's about like avoiding that person feeling like anything has changed, even though they're very, very aware that everything has changed. And I think you want to just get those glimpses, those little moments of like normality that drift in, because you'll soon be naturally reminded that, you know,

nothing is normal right now because you're going through it. But I think it's like feeling that stability. The most important thing when you're going through grief is reminders of things that are like stable and concrete and that you can rely on because so much of death and loss is everything that you know or knew being kind of like chucked up in the air like a magician pulling a tablecloth of a table but everything just smashing to shit. I think it's just important to not to know that. It's just striking that balance really. And that's sort of like the that's the same. It's kind of applicable to everything. But I think because whenever we're worried

about someone, we tend to let it like bubble right up into our chest and our throats and then we sort of like fumble our way through. And actually I think if you're worried about someone, the most important thing you can do is remain as like calm and measured as possible. That's going to help equip you the best. I obviously didn't lose anybody, but I went completely mad this last winter and would refer to myself as feeling like I was in the bottom in that David Attenborough documentary about the bottom of the Mariana Trench. And where there's like a brine lake and then like eels keep popping in the brine lake a reference that you either get or don't get but if people ask how i was i'd be like what does in the brine lake of course anyway i was just gonna say

that i what i really appreciated was stevie this is for you you were so um i was like well i'm you were like just come around just sit just be part of it just sit in the corner you were you were filming i was like i can't be any help because i feel like i'm the one of the brine lake and you were like that's all right we don't need you anyway you know you know you can just sit you can be and no one's going to ask anything of you and being like ignored genuinely being not ignored but like just being allowed to be part of it without anyone asking anything of me or being like what's it like down in the brine I uh I really appreciated um and equally like just being just sort of being no noncensely mothered but in a like no nonsense like just being you're being taken to

this now and I like sit there like a little yeah yeah you know no one's expecting you to be on you know like I think the worst thing for feeling down is when someone's always like why are you so Like you're not normally this quiet and then you feel like you're suddenly you're the burden and you're like this black hole sucking everything in whereas actually if everyone was just like complete treating you completely normally and you're just quiet that's what you want like that's fine. Yeah. Because they're your friends. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very tricky.

Should we move on to tip number three? Well, tip number three, as I did mention, I'm self-confessed gay. Yes, I speak a lot about sexuality in this book because I think it's something that I particularly struggled with and that I think there is a real presumption from people that everything is sort of okay now. And this is something that I'm currently writing a sitcom that has a sort of lead character who's sort of gay

and exploring his sexuality. And any time I write anything where there's like a conflict, I just get a barrage of like mostly straight people saying, Yeah, but things are all right now. Like, I know a 15 year old and they're gay and like they've got a pissed eyebrow and I'm like, yeah, baby, you work in TV. Like, of course you know some okay gays. Like, the reality is that there's still like, like a lot of, especially young queer people and like struggling badly. And it doesn't matter how many like visible gay people there are on telly.

It's more than that. Like visibility isn't just who we see like hosting who I was going to say, would I lie to you? but that's always Rob Bryden but I suppose he is a diversity beacon for the Welsh community but do you know what I mean? It's like it's more than that so I've also kind of explored quite a lot

about what I want people to understand more which is like internalised homophobia that I think particularly like people my age would have experienced like and just educating people on the very like this book really doesn't go into politics too much but like just the baseline level that like there was something called Section 28

and it was there to prohibit the promotion of homosexuality and the visibility of same-sex couples and relationships in a way that like would be completely and utterly flabbergasting today but is very much present in like countries with the biggest populations on the planet

so it isn't something we have like fully defeated and I think internalised homophobia where you were you yourself or maybe you know, aware of your homosexual tendencies or your queerness, but you suppress it or you mock it in others or you see it as a point of weakness is something that like the first two or three years of me dating guys, it was just apparent in almost everyone, this sort of underlying level of like, I wish I wasn't gay. And it definitely put me off doing things that I think would have been really good for my mental health. Like, I don't know, at uni joining the LGBT society or like

hanging out with people who were much more comfortable in their own skin. Like, I would try and seek out other gays who were sort of going under the radar or like with the sort of presumption of being heterosexuals as my sort of like gay people that I should know, but it's kind of like a secret type thing. And I think so much of those sort of exchanges are about sort of concealment. They're about saying like, I'll keep your secret if you keep mine. And that is just like really no way to like build your life. intimacy and relationships with people.

So I've tried to do a chapter on sort of how to help a loved one accept their sexuality because by the time that I had sort of got there and was able to sort of address it, I still kind of needed a bit of help in getting rid of all of that backlog of internalised homophobic crap that I told myself was true. And I think the first thing that I tried to sort of say is that we don't really need to necessarily put labels on it straight away. Like I think the idea of somebody accepting their sexuality seems to come with this like attached tag of like, oh, they're this now or they're that now. And actually that's quite prohibitive because it changes all the time.

I actually know somebody who came out as gay and then has gone right around the houses and been like, no, I think I'm straight. No, I think I'm by. No, I'm differently gay. And it's like you could have just been yourself the whole time. Then another sort of point within this is this kind of like, don't be smug and don't sort of, I guess what I know I've heard of numerous times. And it's the one thing that I tend to hear of quite a lot when somebody comes out. And this isn't necessarily the thing said to their face,

but this is maybe the thing said to their back, which is like, I always knew. I always know. I called it. I had tabs on that. I should have put a bet on it. I know. And like, when you say that someone's face all behind their back, it's incredibly, it's almost as if someone's like suggesting that they predicted who was going to win

strictly at like the start of the series. It doesn't really mean anything and and especially when I've particularly heard people say it and then they therefore have made absolutely no effort to try and help the person in those years that they have thought it to maybe deal with it or tackle it or you know, I don't know, go to a gay pub for a drink or like do anything that might be like supportive and I understand that for a lot of people that comes out of fear and of not wanting to like push people into something. But I think it's a really. really strange thing to throw back at someone. And I, and I know quite a lot of gay people who have had, and trans people as well, like throughout the whole queer community, who've had that, like,

I always knew thing in the back of their mind. And I think if you're going to say the I always knew thing, you really have to be aware of the power of, like, you admitting that. Because what you're essentially saying is, like, I knew, and I therefore knew that you were hurting in some way, that you didn't, weren't able to say this out loud or able to act on this. And I kept my fucking mouth shut. Yeah. It's a bit, it's a bit like saying, yeah, I kept up with the lie. Wasn't I good? Yeah, wasn't I good? Because it's not a smug, like, oh, I always, I did know, actually. You know, it's not what it, it's not what it's, you're saying it to me, you're saying it for one reason, but what it reveals about you is something completely different. Yeah.

It feels like as well, it, like, reduces the person's incredibly complex experience to, like, a bit of like, I don't know, like, ha ha, yeah, I do. And you like, what? Like, it's such, it's so much bigger than that. It's just like, it like, yeah, like, like, like you bet on in one strictly. It's like, it was a bit more. Every single person that's sort of come out as gay, so to speak, or as queer or however they identify, like, there isn't, it's not like a one size fits all type thing.

And so much like the mainstream depictions of it really, I particularly think like, gay male culture is always depicted as like two shirtless guys who are a bit oily looking in distress having a forbidden kiss. I think that's massively actually affected how we help people accept their sexuality because we have such a limited like visual resource of like who and what like gay or queer people are. And so I think it's about like trying to think broader about those things. Like the term straight acting for example, I sort of find it, I almost find it incredibly funny. I just find it hilarious that we have got this term for straight acting. And it's a term used both by like straight people describing gay people, but also gay people

identifying it as it themselves, which I think is a whole other problem. So I think it's just being aware that that coming out experience or that accepting experience is going to be difficult, is going to be different, sorry, that every single individual. So don't make like presumptions about it type of thing. Oh, and actually, do you know what I have put at the end of this chapter? Point number great, be excited for them. Yes. Because I think if someone's wanted to suck a dick for ages and now they finally are, how great. So great.

You know, if someone's wanted to lick something they've stopped licking, they haven't ever had a chance to lick. And now they're licking it. Let them lick. Oh, my God. Live and let lick. Live and let lick. This is the tricky thing. And actually, it's the thing that I hope that I've got right in the book is like,

accepting of the fact that there are bigger reasons than just like ignorance as to why we get things wrong. There are like certain things that we are conditioned to say and to believe and to do that are the reasons why we aren't that able to help each other. And I think we have to understand those reasons better, especially like, especially right now as in like pre-coronavirus. Like the reason I felt like that was important to write a book with those sort of tips and the do's don'ts type thing and to make it funny and silly is because like the majority of people can't access private therapy right now and the public services that are available in mental health are either constantly being cut or are constantly in some sort of crisis or or even if they're not

in crisis, the portrayal of them in crisis all the time is preventing people from seeking them out because they're just like defeated before they've even, you know, picked up the phone. They're like, well, I've heard this, that this trust mental health. trust is failing. So like, where's the support for me? Where's this? And it, and it exacerbates this, like, ongoing, like, steeple chase of fear that people have. We have to just better equip people to feel comfortable in, like, helping others. Yeah, and we have to remove the fear when someone we know is going through a bad time that we're going to do something wrong. And I think, like, what you were saying about open questions is really important as well. Just allowing

someone to behave and not being frightened by how they're behaving, because it doesn't reflect on you at all about the person you're supporting. And it feels like all the, all the tips that you've given, Jack, are all sort of just around, like, just making sure that you are really listening to what the other person wants and needs. Because they're telling you,

but we often just barrel in, not listening, because we've been told that, oh, we're supposed to say this, or like, I'm frightened, so I'll just, and you're not actually listening to the cues that the person's giving you.

Like, let them come to you if they, they need something. And I suppose everyone deals with going through a shit time in such a different way. there's no hard and fast rules for every single human being but all the things that you said have been so good because they've been so broad for a variety of different people and yeah just about this open question thing

if people are I've got a friend that then they can't be physically with and they want to WhatsApp them or text them or whatever what is the one like good open question that isn't just how are you but that is like nice and that opens the conversation up to be like I'm here to listen that isn't just like I'm here or sort of an empty I think right now is quite a strange time because all the coping mechanisms that we normally have

for having those like setups of like getting people to open up aren't like physically able to be facilitated because we're all stuck in our rooms. But I think I've always thought that if I was to ever have like a therapist for life, I would want that therapist to be almost like the character that Phoebe buffet played in Friends when she was pretending that she was like a multi-millionaire conglomerate like oil broker. I'm not sure if you remember that episode.

where she was like a businesswoman. And the whole character was like, right, cut the crap. Tell me the truth. Sometimes you don't need to necessarily take that approach. But it's like just maybe saying someone like, how are you actually doing? Like, or like, be honest. I can take whatever. Like, you can go on a scale from Phoebe buffet, cut the crap to just like the word actually.

How are you actually doing? Like, and like, and I think it's just like trying to get somebody to understand that. Whatever they're concealing can be. revealed. Like, there is nothing too big that can't be set out in the open. I know that sounds like there might be exceptions to that rule, but I genuinely believe there's not. And that I think will help hopefully in having those more difficult conversations. I've actually found that that's been very helpful with our friend Tessa here when you've been having a bad time, I've been like, how's it going? You've been like, yeah, fine. I'd be like, okay, so how's like specifically this thing going? You've been

like, oh, yes, judgeful. You're showing, oh, no, I will persist. To use your namesake, Jack, It's to climb over the barrier and say like, you're all right, I mean, you keep saying you're fine, but I'm going to climb over with you now. So it's from the Titanic, sorry. Oh, yeah, I literally was like, when did I say that? She's like, I'm fine, I'm fine, go away.

And he's like, well, you are hanging off the back of a boat. So you can keep saying you're fine, but I'm going to also climb over the road now, you know, like. Our film's got so many images for reaching out to a friend. All human life is there. Let the fit one die. That's what I see. That's another last time.

That's the ultimate truth. Never let them grow old. If you have a text, put your hand on the car window. Everyone's tried it, and it never looks as good. Thank you so much, Jack. That was so helpful. It was just really, really helpful. Please, if you have any suggestions of future episodes,

Nobody Panic Podcast at gmail.com, please subscribe to the podcast, leave us a review. Also, I'm at Stevie MBS.S.A.5. I'm at Tessa Coates. The Twitter handle for the podcast is Nobody Panic Pod. I will now sell the book in the way that Lisa Kudrow would sell the book playing Phoebe Buffet PowerVitch. There we go. The book's called Cheer the Fuck Up.

Okay? Buy the book. Don't buy it on Amazon because they keep on messing out the pre-order link. Buy it at Waterstones or support an independent retailer. It's out on the 30th of July. Good night. Jack, how on? And where can people find you on social media? I'm just

at Jack Ruck on Twitter. I'm at Jack Dave Rook on Instagram because Dave is my middle name because my parents are pricks. And thank God one of them's dead. you later guys thank you thank you absolutely excellent if you've got a mate that you have you've had any any the slightest inkling might not be doing so well drop them a WhatsApp be aware of the people around you and that it's not it's really hard sometimes for when you're going through shit

to have the gumption to reach out it should always be on the odors of the friends as well not just the person yeah so don't find yourself set at home thinking oh they'll call me if they need me be like No, I'm calling now. I'm coming in. Here I come. Hello! And also, ironically, goodbye. Hello. And goodbye. Thank you so much for hanging out with us and we will see you next time. Bye-bye!