Nobody Panic - How to Recycle with Jennie Romer

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

Want to make sure you’re recycling the right things in the right way? Want to cut down on your single use plastics? Of course you do! And if you don't, well, listen to this chat with plastic recycling expert and author of Can I Recycle This? Jennie Romer and find out what we can do to help the planet.Follow Jennie on Instagram: @jenniethefreckle and Twitter: @jennie_romerBuy Jennie's book Can I Recycle This? A Guide to Better Recycling and How to Reduce Single-use Plastics here.Want to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The date is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace. It's coming to London. True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello, welcome to Nobody Panic with me, Stevie Martin, and I'm a good friend Tessa Coates. Hello, Tessa. Hello, Stevie. Hello, everybody listening. And hello to our guest this week. We're joined in the virtual studio by a very exciting expert. Yes.

So today we are doing how to recycle and we have a sustainability expert, author of the wonderful book, Can I Recycle This? And also she's a legal associate at the Surf Rider Foundation's Plastic Pollutions Initiative. So basically, she knows this stuff a lot. It's Jenny Roma. She's joining us from very cool but also very warm at the moment, New York. How are you doing, Jenny? And thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Hey, thanks so much for having me. Basically, sometimes we will do episodes where we're like, because we do like a how-to each time. And sometimes they'd be like, oh yeah, we don't know anything about this. So it's really great to have someone who genuinely does know. their business. Should we just go straight in? Certainly. I think it's such a massive one and I think everybody's got questions we want to ask you. I think let's ease ourselves in with being like, what is it that got you excited about recycling in the first place? What led to the book? Why did you, I mean, everybody's interested and passionate about it, but why did you decide that this was going to be

your cause that you were going to champion? Well, I'm known as an expert in plastic bag laws. That's kind of been my thing. I was a I was a law students in San Francisco back when San Francisco adopted their plastic bag ban back in 2006 and the plastics industry started kind of circling and started suing cities in California saying you know that plastic the paper bags are worse than plastic and all kinds of stuff and so the plastics industry was super organized and willing to spend like millions of dollars to stop local jurisdictions from adopting laws. And so I was a law student and I decided to become the expert. There was no competition at the time because no one else was really set out to become the expert.

And so I made a website. I made some business cards and I started showing up at hearings and saying, I'm the expert in plastic bag laws. And so, you know, that was 15 years ago. And so I spent a lot of time. I'm talking to recycling, you know, your local recycling companies and all kinds of people about, a lot about plastic bags. And the industry would say, oh, but they're recyclable.

And so I kind of spent time gathering evidence that like, no, they actually clog machinery and there's no market for them. No one's so wants to buy them. And really got into kind of learning all the details about recycling that way. Amazing. And can I ask what is the, and what is the law now about, so in the UK, for example, at the supermarket, you'd have to pay 5p, 10p, 20p to get a plastic bag. What is that, what is that what's happening in America? That's really what I push for, but we have, we have a variety of laws now.

We have nine states that have their own statewide laws and we have about 550 local laws. So I push for having a fee involved so that people have to kind of pause and say, do I really need this? Yeah. But sometimes it's just a ban on certain bags, but I try to have a fee involved in some way. Right. And now it's expanded to, of course, your book is obviously not just about bags, although I would read that book. It's about reducing your single-use plastic in general and also trying to recycle better. And I wanted to ask you, Tessa, how do you feel that your recycling is going? I just think I'm so bad at it. I mean, I'm so, I'm so, I'm so.

enthusiastic, but I just feel like I put everything into the green. So in this country, our recycling bags are green and they're collected by the council once a week. And I feel like I just sort of put everything in there. People keep being like, that one's not recyclable. I'm like, yes, it is. Like, why not? And I think like, and I think what I find so crazy is that like if we have the technology for things to be recyclable or if we have the technology to make a bag out of a banana or, you know, increasingly I see like the other day at the supermarket, I got a plastic bag. And I was like, oh, I can't believe these. So the bananas had come in a plastic bag.

And I was like, what a waste? But when I got home, it said like, this is a compostable bag made from plant waste. I was like, fantastic. Well done the supermarket. And I was like, okay, so if we can do this, why isn't it compulsory for everyone to be doing it? How do we do it right? Because my blanket policy is like everything in there. And I know that's not, that's not right, you know?

Yeah. And so I spent a lot of time, like I said, working at plastic bagels. And then I that led me to spending a lot of time at recycling centers and kind of seeing like what happens because so many people put the stuff in their bins. And then that's just kind of over. They're kind of hope for the best. And so what my book really looks at is what happens next. And so my one big take home is follow your local rules. They are they're different in local places.

But it usually depends on two things. One is kind of the philosophy of recycling for your local jurisdiction. and two is like what kind of machinery do they have and what kind of relationships do they have to sell that stuff. So some places with the philosophy, they have a philosophy of just kind of give us everything and we'll sort it out. And they'll take like basically all rigid plastics. So they'll take all that stuff. But the reality is that there's only, only some really have an end market. So end market means there's some other manufacturer who wants to purchase those items and turn them into something else. So, you know, at your recycling facility, they're not really just, like,

taking everything, like taking your soup cans and, like, manufacturing into something right there. They're taking all your stuff, sorting it into bales, kind of like hay bales, and then selling it to, on the commodities market, to a buyer. So for plastic in particular, some of it is actually worth some money. I did some research for the book, and the ones that are worth the most are, one. water bottles and milk jugs or shampoo bottles. So those are made out of P.E.T. and H.D.PE plastics. And those are worth the most. But then a lot of the other stuff, what we call kind of, well, basically everything else, kind of numbers three through seven, are worth about negative $17 a ton on the commodity market for like all the other stuff. But those, the milk jugs in particular are worth

about a thousand dollars a ton. So like that's a huge difference. And a lot of people just see plastic as like one thing. They think, they think, oh, I'll throw this in the bin. Maybe it'll get recycled. But really, it's a commodities market. And so it has to be worth something in order for someone to buy it and turn it into something else. So like sometimes is, is that why like, you know, at home with my parents, the little like, you know when you got, you know, you buy strawberries? and there's like the robust tub and then there's the tiny little like plastic that you like peel off the top

the peeling off the top thing they can't recycle and the robust tub they do recycle and is that because people are more likely to buy robust tops? Yeah so that's probably made out of that number two HDPE plastic and somebody wants to buy that a lot of cosmetic companies are buying that type of plastic now and turning them into like plastic compacts

and stuff like that but the other stuff is a fill So it might get caught in the machinery. And then nobody's going to want to buy it at the other end. For a long time, that kind of really cheap, low-value plastic was going to China. China doesn't want it anymore. They were kind of burning it and dumping it in their environment for the most part anyway. So it's a good thing that we're trying to close its doors internationally to importing all of that stuff. And so now we're talking about it more now that there isn't that just kind of like place

to go. But it's, it's very complicated. So even we mentioned compostable plastic, that, that banana wrap, that needs to go to, like, exactly the right place in order for it to be composted. Like, it needs to go to a commercial facility. There's, like, multiple problems. One of them is, with you just explained, which I think is really helpful, because some people I know will be like, well, it's all different. And everywhere I move has a different recycling thing. So it's all bullshit anyway. So I'm just going to, like, throw it all in the bin. You're like, that's on how. helpful. So actually your local laws, you should be following it because that's based on what machinery they have in order to sort it and how what their process is, every local place has a

different process. So that's really good to know to just follow your local sort of rules. But then the other thing, for example, like you say about that banana plastic wrap, I bought loads of dental floss things, picks that are sustainable. But then when, yeah, when it came to putting them in the bin, I was like, I don't know which bin. There's no like rule of which bin to put that in. So you have to then they package it up and send it to like a plans like that. Oh, people don't have the time to do that stuff. Yeah. And I think there are two, I guess, vocab terms.

But one of them is wish cycling. So that's what we say when people are trying, just putting everything in their recycling bin and kind of wishing that it was recyclable. Hello. That's me. So, yes. And then, yes. And so, you know, trying to avoid that following those local rules,

even if you don't agree with them and you really want something to be recyclable. Like having you put it in the bin isn't going to make them suddenly think, oh yeah, we should start recycling this. Really, really feel very seen. I feel very soon. Yeah. Sorry. And then another is greenwashing. So that's when a company is saying they're doing something great for the environment

when they are not really or maybe even doing something worse. So having those things like compostable, various compostable like films or dendal floss like companies you feel really great and you buy maybe pay more money for something like that but it needs to go to the right place and so you know if you have like a curbside composting bin and if the curbside composters actually want that stuff then like okay you know that's probably good but in most places if you're buying it and then you're just putting it in the landfill like that's really not going to be make a difference So having that whole, like, that whole system in place is really what you need.

So would you, is this, and this will be too simplified now what I'm about to say, but I'm going to try it for my own sanity. Sometimes in some boroughs I've lived in, some counties I've lived in, they have, yeah, food compost bin. And so you basically just put all your food in there. Say you did have like a fully compostable film or something. Would you put it in there or would you still not do that? I personally could avoid doing it just because I've worked for a group that was kind of like an environmental health group and kind of saw how much like how many different like color dyes and like additives and stuff that are in all this plastic even the compostable plastic that I don't really want to put it in the soil like I don't I'd rather just put like food scraps in there.

But it depends, but, you know, again, follow your local rules. And some jurisdictions are saying like, okay, yeah, I give us all these like, you know, films and stuff. But, you know, so many food containers and utensils and stuff now or say they're compostable. And I'm pretty skeptical about that. And so what I work on really now is trying to switch to reuse as much as possible. So, you know, if you're in a cafe, trying to have that stuff that is reusable as much as possible. And then when you're getting takeaway, having going home, if you're going home, having the, using your utensils at home and trying to avoid all that stuff on the go as much as possible.

And so that's kind of the push that we're looking at now rather than going from one single use thing to another. It's just like being Joey and friends and just having a fork on you at all time. And I do that too, which is like something that I try to keep a fork in my purse so that I could avoid doing that. Yeah. Well, you can buy really cute little, because I got my, my sister bought one for me for Christmas. So you can buy a little beautiful little knife and fork sets that you carry around with you that you go like, yeah, of course. That's going to make such a huge, it's like it's a little thing, but it's going to make a massive difference. So many of these single-use plastic items, like, aren't recyclable, but people feel okay about using them because they'll be like, oh, I got all these, like, I've got six extra forks in my, you know, bag of food that I ordered for friends. And I'll just put them all in the recycling bin.

But knowing that those aren't really recyclable because they are kind of awkwardly shaped and they're made out of a plastic that no one wants to buy, those are just going to go to like, you know, incineration or landfill makes you want to reduce more rather than just saying like, oh, it's recyclable. It's okay. I'll recycle. It really taps into like a really big part of human psychology of being like they've given us this sort of easy out that's like, oh, it's a recyclable plastic.

This is fine as opposed to being like we cannot, we cannot do any plastics. I say bring your own everything. So, yeah, the bags and, you know, start with what you're comfortable with and then go on from there. So, and don't feel bad if you, you know, have one thing where you are at a restaurant and you forgot something. Like, it's not the end of the world. Just like, remember next time. Be nice to yourself. But, you know, bring your own coffee cup, you know.

And a lot of these things are really not recycled. like coffee cups are generally made from a short paper fiber and short paper fibers really kind of slip through all the screens at paper recycling facilities paper mills and so I know I I break a lot of hearts with us. It's just like they just I know like the wish with the wish cycling group hello but like you do just look at a coffee cup and like not the plastic lid but they're actually like paper cup you think like well fantastic that's a paper cup you know yeah and you know and you know and And paper coffee cups are made to withstand water and heat. And that's basically what's used at the paper pulp mills to kind of break everything up.

So yeah, anyway, they don't fare well. They basically end up with the wastewater if they're at those facilities. So it's another, like I said, try to have the take home be. Like if it's not recyclable, like even more reason to. try to bring your own water bottles, utensils. And then, you know, I try to bring my own food containers when I can. So, you know, especially during the pandemic, food containers have been a, you know, a big source of waste. But if you can, having, bringing your own food container for your leftovers. So if you're going out to a meal, it's somewhere where you usually might have leftovers, like plan ahead

and bring a little container. There's some cute ones out there. Or if you're getting takeaway, you know, I've built relationships with like, you know, my Chinese food restaurant where I like to go, they know me and I can call and say like, it's Jenny, I'll bring my own container and they can put it right in for me. Or if they're not comfortable with it, put it on a plate

and then you can put it in your container. Because those things, like, aren't recyclable either a lot of the time. So just of trying to avoid the waste that you know you're going to generate. Listen, there's one right beside me, but like this sort of very hard Tupperwarey takeaway box, those aren't recyclable either? Well, the most recyclable things are the bottles and jugs. So they're made a slightly different way. The polymers are really much more dense for bottles and jugs. And then for the things that are more flat, like those trays, are a slightly less dense type of polymer.

there's less molecular weight involved. And so those aren't as valuable. So they're less likely to get turned into something else too. Yeah. Could you do the thing where you turn takeaway boxes into, I use them for like lunch boxes. And also instead of cling film, like storing food,

you know, like you just put a bit of cheese and normally wrap cling film around and then throw the cling film away. You put the cheese in the old Tupperware that you've kept since 1973 or whatever and then he's got a fridge full of Tupperware. But obviously that's not sustainable because then you will drown in Tupperware. So there comes a point when you do have to be like, I've got my own.

I've got my own. Please don't bring any more into the house. Yes. I've got my own thing. Can you please put the takeaway in that? But what I find interesting about is like sometimes people feel uncomfortable and silly doing that. And it's like there's got to be such a push towards being like it's not silly. Nobody thinks you're silly. It's just like now, having a reusable water bottle is like, well, in England and here, it's completely every day. Everyone seems to have one. coffee cup as well you see people with reusable coffee cups a little bit less so but like you see but then take bringing your own container and being like can you put my food in this some people

feel really like oh I just feel like an idiot and we've got to stop that so if you're listening being like I could never do that you can also I did it sometimes it helps when like places and some places you actually do have money off your takeaway if you bring a thing which helps but if you sometimes if you like find one of those places do that a bit and then you get into the vibe of it and then you can go to places that don't offer any money off and then you don't feel stupid you other people would see that and say, oh, I didn't even think about bringing my own container. You know, a lot of time when I'm refusing straws or when I'm bringing my own containers and things, I say like, oh, well, you know, I just like, I'm trying to use less plastic

and to try to give people a little context to say, you know, I'm not crazy, but please help me with this. Yeah, I think it's, I don't really know quite how we managed to get to this place where, you know, taking your own container to something feels very sort of like hippie-ish for want of a better word. And everyone was like, oh, I would be too embarrassed to ask the coffee place to use my coffee cup. Like, why? Like, what's possibly embarrassing about that? It's very British, isn't it? Oh, sorry, do you want to cause a bother?

Yes, I think it's that, isn't it? Not wanting to be a bother and not wanting to do any sort of, we don't like to deviate from the norm in this country, thank you? I guess it's that. And we just have to, like you're saying see, with the water bottle. like the norm just has moved in the direction that now someone buying, I think someone buying a water bottle in the people would be like, oh, bought a water bottle I see, a brand new plastic water bottle, you know, whereas a couple of years ago everyone was like, oh, bringing your own water bottle, like, ooh. So I think hopefully that cultural shift is just happening with more and more stuff

and we're moving in a positive, if very slow, you know, direction. Yeah. And I do try to build a little bit of a relationship first a lot of the time if I'm bringing in my container so so that I don't do it just like everywhere I go necessarily but if I you know go into it like have them like have seen my face more than once and then say oh I just brought this like is it okay rather than kind of demanding especially you know post-pandemic like or you know still during it perhaps having making sure that people are comfortable so I'm not going to like bring my thing because people are kind of extra sensitive about, but now we know it's okay. And so bringing all that stuff is okay. But still, you know, people, people in restaurants and stuff are frontline

are frontline workers. So making sure that they feel comfortable and like not just kind of shoving things in their face or anything for sure. We've got our Joey Fork in our bag and we, what can we do on a bigger scale that's like, are there, will the government listen if people email? Like, do you need to be going to your local, if I email, Boris, will, that help? Or like should you be sort of like going to your local council and being like, like it just feels like the ideas are there, the technology is there. Like people know, the smart people have worked out how to do this. It's just like it doesn't make enough money. So nobody is interested in doing it. And so like what will what will it take to like change

minds at top level to sort of, I'm like, what can we what can we do? Yeah. Well, that's what I do at my my day job at Surfighters. I work in plastic reduction policy. And we have, we have. I'm so glad you're here. And the good thing is we have, you know, surf rider was founded by surfers to protect their break, their beach basically in California. And we've, and we've expanded out to all kinds of ocean protection, including keeping plastics out of the ocean. So we help volunteers basically all over the country and all over the world in a lot of local campaigns.

So all that local work with your city council, you know, saying that you want a bag law or banning banning the styrofoam, making restaurants have to use utensils that are reusable or to ask you whether you want one. So we've made a lot of progress with that. But now we're talking about addressing all the plastics that are on the grocery store shelves too. So when you're going to the store, like, okay, you know, addressing, like bringing your own bag is fine. But when you get to the store and everything is just covered in plastic on the shelves and you don't have any options, like trying to make that stuff made out of plastic that's actually recyclable. having reuse options is kind of the next level.

So I think, you know, I'd say, you know, if you live near Surf Rider, contact them and get involved. Like we have like coaches kind of to help you. But you can also just reach out to your local and, you know, all of your politicians and say, I care about this because they hear so much from lobbyists and from, you know, the plastics industry, the packaged goods industry who have people that are paid to, you know, lobby for, all their laws, but hearing from their constituents who, you know, vote them in the office, that really matters a ton. Yeah, and I would say, you know, try to figure out if there's

something else happening in your area, if there's some kind of push for, you know, single-use plastic reduction. And like I said, a big take home of my book is just trying to use less plastic. And so a lot of the time there are, depending on your area, there are already people or groups who are working on that stuff. So you could even just like use the Google and say like, you know, your town and plastic and like maybe something will come up. Or there's a there's a group called Break Free from Plastic and it's an international movement. They have tons of local affiliates.

So maybe there's one of those groups that's in your area or a surfwriter group. And those people are already kind of in the know and have some ideas happening. So kind of plugging in. Can I come back to what you're talking about the finances, about no one wanting to buy stuff and you saying that it was minus $17 to the ton. Is that right? So not only is it not making, it costing money to do it. And is that just like, is that, have we not found any use for it?

We can't make it a fuel? We can't do, can we not do anything with it? It's simply like, that's it. That's the end of the game for this, these plastics. Yeah. So it's slightly, if you're selling it to someone for negative $17, like at least you're not paying for the full cost of land. filling it, which might be like in the U.S. might be $75 or $55.

You know, you're paying for all that sorting and things like that. So that costs a little bit more. But you're selling it to someone who, you know, at that rate, they're probably not making it into like a fancy new product. They might be maybe turning it into like adding it to pulp wood and making it into a park bench or something at best case scenario. And there are there are a lot of moves by the plastics industry in particular. particular right now globally to kind of rebrand recycling to include waste to fuel.

So right now, incineration is something that happens to a lot of waste. And they're trying to now, you know, keep doing that, have that count as recycling or branded as waste to energy, which I'm not supportive of calling that recycling. And then they're also saying chemical recycling is another word they're using. And that's basically plastic to fuel. And so burning plastic. And that's not something we want to have count as recycling either. So I'm an attorney at the Surfrider Foundation.

I spend a lot of time working on policies. And so I see that the plastics industry is, you know, saying, okay, like, let's call this recycling. And let's get a bunch of government subsidies to build these big plastic to fuel or burning plastic kind of facilities. But I want to see facilities that actually take your bottle. and like shred them and then turn them into new bottles. And that doesn't exist. Is that not a, is that a, is that a, no, that's a dream or it's actually existed?

That, that happens, but it only happens for those high value plastics, what that actually like kind of makes sense to get made in something else. So, okay. I want to see, like, I want to see a shift towards more things being packaged in those high value plastics. So we can actually, you know, do that kind of, we call it mechanical recycling with them. And then also having more. or reuse systems. So I don't want to see like, especially government investments. I don't want to

see investments in like burning plastic. I want to see investments in having maybe buying your beer in a glass bottle that then gets returned and washed out, refilled with beer and sold to you again. Whereas most of our bottles are getting just kind of smashed and then very like inefficiently returned back into a new bottle or just used as something like kind of used. maybe in cement or something like that. So we have a whole lot of work to do. You mentioned about like the coffee cups and wishful recycling. Is there any more things like that that people would presume a recyclable or fine and just aren't? Yeah, anything that you wish people knew. Yeah. And so I think there, you know, there's wish cycling that is a problem that's just because

it's like a lot of volume that the recyclers have to deal with and just kind of throw away at the end. But then there's some stuff that is actually makes it a lot more difficult for the for the recycling and facilities. And so one thing is tanglers. And so things like they get tangled in the equipment and make it. So the equipment has to get like shut down to have things cleaned out. And so one thing I mentioned is our plastic bags. So those those are plastic films in general get caught in the gears of the recycling facilities. So don't recycle your plastic bag. And a lot of people want to do that. But that's something to really avoid. Sometimes a lot of the time you put your actual recycling in a big plastic bag. And they'll like rip that open basically and kind of dump out everything onto a conveyor belt. But if you're putting in all those other films and plastic bags into the big bag, then that's going to go on the conveyor belt, go into the system and kind of get caught.

It'll get caught on the more valuable stuff like aluminum. of cans and like those more expensive plastic bottles and make it harder for those. I can kind of contaminate those and get stuck in the machinery. So don't recycle. Like you can some places let you bring them to drop off, but or just try to avoid them as much as you can. So you rip, so you take those like flimsy little plastic boys off the robust boys and you just and then you put the flimsy ones in with your non-recyclables and your more robust looking plastics in the recycling. I see. And plastic bags, if you must, you can put your recyclables in the plastic bag because they'll just get torn open, but don't put plastic bags in the plastic bags, because

that's a nightmare. Yeah, they're small, they're hard to, you know, the ones that are big, they just rip open and they can, you know, usually throw away. But all the small stuff, it just, you know, it's kind of a nightmare if you're putting it in in the bins, unfortunately. So that's one big, big warning. And then other things like people put, like garden hoses and electronic like extension cords and those kind of rope like things. Those get caught in machinery a lot and cause a lot of problems or things like clothes. Don't, you know, don't recycle your clothes. Like those need to go to some kind of other facility.

And then batteries. You can never recycle your batteries curbside. They need to go to, you know, be brought back to the store. But all the rechargeable batteries that have lithium. and those can cause explosions and fires. So don't put them in your recycling, Ben. Okay. It's fascinating.

You can see people's like mindsets of like recycling plastic. Well, like the extension cords, I suppose they are plastic. I think obviously stuff in that. I think it feels when you put it in, and I wouldn't put an extension cable or a battery. And I also here I think most supermarkets by the exit have like a big clear thing for battery. So I think it feels very instinctive of where batteries should go. But I can see the logic of being like, oh, this extension cable has plastic bits. And I feel like I can't fix it, but somebody must be able to use the wires and things in here.

They must be useful. So I think it's that of feeling, rather than it being like, everything that goes in this bag will go into a machine. And the machine will be ruined rather than like a person will sift through everything for you. Yeah, like the borrowers being like, what can we use from this? It's like it's not the borrowers. It is a machine. And the machine will break if you're, I think that, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's just so kind of, it's so opaque as far as what happens next. Like so many people just feel like, oh, I'm a good person because I'm putting as much as I can into this, into this bin. And it'll all get sorted out at the other side. But, but knowing that, you know, yeah, it's not the borrowers. It's not someone who's thinking like, oh, I hadn't thought to recycle this before. But now that I see it. So yeah, just giving them what they want and avoiding, especially avoiding the stuff that's harmful. And then another thing is, or small.

So anything that's really tiny, like less than two inches by two inches, those are really just going to fall through the cracks at the facilities. So, you know, if you're grabbing little, all these tiny, tiny bits of plastic, those are most likely going to fall through the cracks and end up going to a landfill as well. So, and also another reason to try to avoid that. Why are we supposed to put them? Yeah. One kind of policy I'm working on with New York City Council is, is condiments and utensils upon request. So when you're ordering food, having a pop-up where you say,

okay, these are the ones that I want, kind of like ordering toppings on a pizza. So you can say exactly what you want rather than kind of just everything being shoved in a bag, which is what happens with delivery a lot of the time now, where you just kind of, you're like, okay, it's customary that you get all of those utensils and napkins and packets regardless of what you have at home. and so kind of shifting, shifting that mentality. Rather than just doing it through delivery,

you can call your Indian takeaway and be like, oh, by the way, I'm actually fine for chutley and I'm fine for this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then thanking them if they actually send you what you want it, because I think, like seeing that there's that kind of feedback for it too is really helpful, I think. Yeah, the small things is such a surprise because a couple of years ago,

the famous picture of the seahorse carrying the, you know, tip earbud around and everyone was like my lord we must put the cue tips and the recycling but then to be like no that's not helpful either you just need to not be buying cue tips you don't need them yeah so I think it's but I think and I'm sure the instinct on seeing that image and seeing it was like into the recycling must go into the recycling don't let it go to landfill don't let it end up in the sea but actually it's like it's going there anyway like there's nothing don't have it in the first place I was wondering if we could end on something hopeful yeah so I think we're really headed towards to larger policy change in the U.S.

I've been working on a federal piece of legislation called the Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act that really looks at all cycles of plastic, like from production, putting moratoriums on production for new plastics facilities, like having national laws about bags and extended producer responsibility, like holding the manufacturers of products

responsible financially for paying for the recycling. And so making them really want to shift to that like better like higher quality plastic so they can recycle it. And so that's something I'm excited about. And it's something you're already seeing really happening in the EU and other places. So like we know how to fix a lot of this stuff and we're starting to get there. And I think, you know, having people involved, having people call their their legislators and say, hey, this is something I care about. I think is part of it. So that's, that's my positivity for the end. Okay, okay. I feel hopeful. I feel hopeful-ish and I also feel like I'm armed, even though it was hard to hear sometimes, armed with the information I now need to do things like take my cotlarita places, ask to get containers, use your own container where possible, and just keep it out. Also, little things like, you know, when you see like the onions and they're in like a weird little bag, and then there's loose on it and you're like, I'll get these little bag onions. No, get the loose onion. And just keep on top of the little things that we can do while the,

well, Jenny's all across the mass of changes. Oh, this has been horrendous, quite frankly. This has been, I feel like an... In the best way. This was a real... I was definitely in a real sort of like, ignorance is bliss scenario of like really thinking how well I was doing

and it turns out I was not doing well. Yeah, I have a bit of a downer sometimes, but... No, it's so important. It's so important. And we can't just sort of put our head in the sand and been like, yeah, they'll fix it. The borrower will fix it. The borrower was...

And if you've been listening, like, I would like to know more. Please go and buy Jenny's book. Can I Recycle This, A Guide to Better Recycling and How to Reduce Single Use Plastics? Because that's what we all obviously should be doing that. And what are your handles where people can like follow you? On Instagram, Jenny the Freckle. And there's also Can I Recycle this book, C-I-R-T book on Twitter. So, yeah, follow me.

And if you get the book, please post about it on social media, especially things like let us know, let me know what things you're changing or you've learned. I love to hear that stuff. Yeah, God. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, but also for all the work you do. Thank you for being our guiding light. And thank you very much for listening. You can follow us at Nobody Panic Pod and do get in touch with us.

If you have any, see you next week, guys. It's all going to be okay because we've got Jenny in our corner. It's all going to be okay. Thank you so much, Jenny. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Go!