Nobody Panic - How to talk about toxic masculinity

Episode Date: November 13, 2018

In honour of International Men's Day on November 19th, Tessa and Stevie talk to comedian Phil Wang (the most toxic man of all) about to how to understand toxic masculinity, what it means to be a man, and the time someone had sex in the chapel at boarding school.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. And welcome to the hot, really chilled topic. And I'm really chilled out about talking about.

Seemly very hot. We're all feeling very worried. We did a feminism episode when we used to be the debrief podcast. And basically me and Tessa were just boiling hot and stammering and crying during the whole thing. So now we've decided to do how to deal with toxic masculinity. The other thing is a very important topic. And so we've got a man in. The man is Phil Wang, one of our good friends and top comedians.

you may have seen on just everything. Tasmasters, Lively Apollo, anything else? You did anything else? I did anything else, Phil. I did a gig, a Chinese gig the other night in Coving Garden with only British Chinese comedians. Well, you were obviously all by listening, so that was great. And a surprisingly Chinese audience, so you might know me from there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you are that gig. If you're out of that gig, you've known me most recently from that. Yeah, great, that's excellent. I'm also a certified man. as you are as you've touched on. Yeah, yes.

So he's bringing... An expert in toxic masculinity. We sprung the topic on him about five minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting to see what comes out. He's on the spot. On the spot.

We're going to quiz him. He has to speak for the whole of his gender. The whole of his gender. And also feel free to message him directly if you would disagree with anything and be as aggressive as possible. My handle, my Twitter handle is at Gokwant. So any... Any problems you have.

Remember when everyone got so upset when you were mean about what's his face? Tom Hiddleston. Oh, sorry. Tom Hiddleston. I'm confused. Phil got trolled so badly

because you just had quite a casual thing about Tom Hiddleston. I actually regret not going harder on Tom Hiddleston. I was in Room 101 and I wanted to put Tom Hidlson into Room 101. He didn't get put in to Ruma 1 and Hiddle's fans are still worse than angry. But, I mean, they were, they're mad.

They're not. There's no one who sent me anything negative about whom I thought, oh no, I've lost their support. I've gone, yeah, obviously, they're nuts. Their profile picture is low-key. And so I'm not going to take that to heart, you know. You shouldn't. Before we delve into it, what's the most adult thing you've done this week, Tessa?

I'll be asking you next. Can I deflect? Can you start? Yeah, I can start. I've got a whole list here. Oh, buddy. All right, mate. Okay.

Oh, have I done this one? Have I spoken about to you about notebooks and my very complicated relationship with them? I don't believe so. Right, so since I was little, I love writing in notebooks. Great. Every Christmas, my parents will get me out of a beautiful notebook or I'll see one in like paper chase

and be like, that, it looks like an old spellbook and all the pages are off white and the, oh yes, please, I'll get it. But you fall for that sort of the affected old. No, not always. Okay, so like Crisp and new and... The one I've got currently is quite like a modern art type of... She's basically an attractive notebook. Oh, okay.

All this sort of thing. I mean, look at that for like, affected. Tessa's Macbook holder is like, looks like a big old book. Tess is a sucker for things that are other things. A carrot that looks like a pen.

No, a pen that looks like a carrot. Sorry. You're not in a carrot that look like a pen? Would you have it? Would you eat it? Never. But it would rot eventually. I know, and I'd be sad,

but I would keep him till the end of his days. I put some little gougly eyes on. But, so back to the thing, notebooks. Like pens have. As I said, I thought, I hope we can watch. over that time. Notebooks.

The only downside is that they're really beautiful and I don't think anything I have to say could ever be of worth to put in it. Then I've bought shit ones and used the shit ones

to write down all my notes of just like things to do lists or whatever. One day I was just like oh my God I'm just going to use that the nicest one and just use it as a notebook for all my things.

Did it? Quite stressed about it. I've now got into it and now regularly I'm now working through all my beautiful notebooks that have just got like everyday notes in them anything because I think that like

I should bring joy and happiness and beauty to my mundane things. That is wonderful. So now I'm no longer stressed about using beautiful notebooks I don't feel like I have to write a full novel first go or like a spellbook. On the first page. It's so tough. My mum didn't buy for me but once saw in like a Christmas market

a notebook made with reindeer skin. That's horrific. Well, some of them are made with leather I wouldn't buy that Why, they're not endangered They're fine No, wait for this The cows

It was 100 years old She said leather Rainier skin No, then she said leather Oh okay Yeah, listen But leather is, you can have reindeer leather You can have reindeer leather, leather

You don't want to have a book Made of reindeer skin But listen, it was dredged up From a shipwreck Oh, okay From like 200 years ago The reindeer Yeah, no like they were like reindeer

like reindeer leather was on the, as in the skins were on this old shipwreck. They dredged it up and they've made notebooks out of like 200 year old reindeer skin and then like bound with these like beautiful pages. Those must have been expensive. They were expensive. She didn't buy it. Right. But I think about it quite often because I was like never will I have a thought good enough to go into the reindeer. You will.

The reindeer skin. Because that's the joy of it. You just be like, it doesn't matter. This notebook is not a sentient being judging my work. Also like how nice to whenever I go in my bag to be like. like oh god I've got to remember that plate I've got to remember to buy a pepper how nice to be like oh nice book pepper yeah rather than like ah my piece of shit book and what will I ever write that notebook now I've forgotten about the pepper like that's the issue the notebook is not your

final product the notebook is the no book is the toilet for your brain is where you shit out all the vessel yeah no not vessel the toilet is where you it's where you it's where you shit out all the stuff okay that you need to get out of your head to get to the good stuff right right at least that's how I see it yes right right you know the giant toilet I think it's a very common thing that people think. That, huh? That your notebook is a toilet. Mine specifically.

It's an absolute toilet. But that's such a great practice. I need to do that sort of thing. I do it on my phone, but there's something... It's not as nice. It's not as nice and you don't... There's a commitment. There's a commitment.

There's a commitment. Also, looking back, I've... Since I've started doing it, I've looked back at old notebooks. And it's so cool just to see, like, where I was in my life, where at the time, you don't think that you're keeping a diary of anything.

you're just writing down that you want a pepper. But then you can see where you were in your life and the sort of stuff you were buying, the sort of friends you had, peppers. You know, that was 2011 was the year of the pepper for me. But I'll see names. I'm like, oh, I don't see those people anymore.

But like I was hanging out with them loads that year. Like, it's really, really nice. Phil, what's the most adult thing you've done? This week, not in your life. This week, I went to the doctor because I have back problems. Oh, that's a adult thing. That's really good.

That's so adult. Yeah, I have my back. Well, actually, no, it's not adult because I injured my back. about five years ago and like it hasn't been fine since then. Oh God. But now recently it started getting quite bad again. So I've started going to an osteopath.

That's my back going. He's down. Phil is down, everyone. Lower the microphone here. I started going to osteopath who like cracked my back and puts like needles in me. It's great. Wow. And I started doing Pilates.

Yeah. Oh, Pilates. This is one thing my, uh, my osteopath does where she'll, like ready me like put her fingers either side of the vertebrae on the upper part of my back and she'll tell me to take a deep breath in and deep breath out and once on my breath is gone she just goes and she just cracks the vertebrae at the top of my back it's great it's a very intense noise isn't it yeah and it's deep it's deep in you it feels like the chest is cracking yeah you never have it it's really intense i scream sometimes because you have no there's no pain whatsoever

but the sound that comes from which is it's not it's not pain whatsoever but the sound that comes from within of a crack, your immediate reaction is like, well, I'm dead. It's very dramatic. It's so intense. And then you're like, am I okay? And you're really like checking in being like, everybody, everyone's still attached? Like, it's quite, it's quite an intense process. You don't really expect to be able to walk after it.

No. I guess I'm paralysed, but they did feel good. Yeah, but it's all the time, yeah. It's worth it for that moment. What's yours, Tessa? Mine is quite weak. I found a bunch of old pound coins in the house while tidying that I, had obviously not taken to the bank.

They were living in my side pocket of my backpack. And then I was trying to take too many things through Paddington Station. And I was attempting to do it like in like 10 feet bursts. Of course. Leaving them back, you know. People would say like, can I help?

I mean, this way that was like, please don't make me help. Like this is this girl. And I would be like, honestly, please know. And they were like, thank you. And then they'd like leave me there. And I was like, this is absolutely absurd. I found the trolley things. and was like,

I'm not paying a pound for the trolley. And then I was like, for God's sake, girl, pay the pound. And then they only took. The guy was like, oh, they're no use because they only take the old pound coins. And I was like, whoa! Here I come. That's great.

You get the pound back. But I then was on the train. I literally had to take it to the door. Then I was like, now there's nothing I can do. And then a kid looked absolutely thrilled. So I was like, live you. Oh. Not east for a third person

That's so far away from me And I Sorry I just desticulated while shouting Live your life to the child Live your life You put the trolley You get that pound back Oh great

Imagine how thrill you were when you were a kid And you found more trolley An old pound that you can't use Yeah but you The thought getting a trolley Like oh my god If I get this trolley back I can get the pound

So I gave that pleasure to someone else I love that you're still so thrifty And still like I'm not putting a pound in it I know it's so stupid Because I'd come to Paddington in an Uber Because I couldn't

get anywhere and then I was trying to get across the concourse and I honestly was like, I'm not paying a pound for that trolley. It is annoying though, isn't it? Yeah, but you're sometimes just like, come on, right. So, this episode I have wanted to do since International Women's Day, which is in March, and

so many people on Twitter and everything say, you know, when is international men's day? That's the impression of a man. Very good. A lot of people going, when's international men's day? To which some people said very flippantly like, like, oh, every day it's International Men's Day and then somebody said the truth, which is that it is on the 19th of November.

And what I really wanted to do was talk about those things and how we're not any good at celebrating International Men's Day. People don't even know when it is. Yeah, well, around International Women's Day, there's lots of, like, different, it's a great excuse for people to write, like, really in-depth, interesting articles about loads different types of, like, what it means to be a woman, the current struggle that we still have, all this stuff. And on International Men's Day, you just get, like, one man being like, is it today? Yeah. And that's it.

The Google, and also the Google hits for the phrase International Men's Day on International Women's Day are huge and nothing on the actual day. Yes. And so, like, if there was a proper big space of celebrating and writing these articles and talking and stuff, it wouldn't have the same. It wouldn't even be a question.

It'd just be like, cool, we'll do that on International Men's Day. Yeah. And then when is it and does it exist and all of these things? Exactly. Yes. And also, I think there's a huge problem just in general of talking about male issues and talking about stuff in general to do with that.

And I think we talk about, well, we've done episodes about feminism, we talk a lot about what it means to be a woman and all that business, but we haven't talked about the male side of things. And we haven't really ever done anything on international men's day. No, and I think something that Stevie said earlier and we want to be able to talk about is how the phrase like men are trash comes up so often and is such a sort of end game. People use it now as breathing.

So I was in this WhatsApp group, I was in this WhatsApp group full of like very strong, independent feminist women. They're really all excellent people. But this is like through line. It's just whenever they'll, they'll say like a story about

a bad experience they've had with a man, whether that's an ex-boyfriend, whether that's a cat calling. And it's very much like a support WhatsApp group. Someone will just go like, well, men are trash. And it's like, it's such a thing. Someone will always say that. And I just think it's,

and I completely get, you know, obviously a lot of men are trash a lot of women are trash. A lot of people are trash. We have to keep this perspective that like, yes, we're maybe different, but we're all humans and often it's a human issue. Are you a nice person or a not nice person? Then like

just expecting men to be trashed. And also, like it's such a hard, it's so easy of course if you're on the fence over here, not a man being able to shout men are trash and nobody on the men side wants to be like, yes, yes we are. You know, that's your life. You only get one shot at it and you

you rolled the dice and you got man and so you don't want to be like yes you're absolutely right I'll just I'll just plop off this cliff then like we haven't got the organizational skills to all be trashed together we we some of us yeah but I think

it's an expression you know it's just like of course it is yeah um it's like Sailor V basically men are trash right but language is so important so if it becomes like Selah V then what we're saying

yeah exactly we can't let it become we can't let it become we can't let it become that? Oh, men are trashed morning. Yes, yes, stop. I always found it mostly humorous.

Yes, it is. No, it is. Oh, it is. It definitely is. Yeah, yeah, it is. And some people do say it. I think online women say it as a sort of last, last resort of exasperation.

Of course. And that I also understand. But sometimes it is a person's actual manifesto. And then I'm like, okay, I'm not really going to listen to you. because it's not, this is very reductive. Yes, and I think as well, like, you know with the whole, like, well, I'm talking about Trump now, so there we go. He has those certain words and there's certain phrases

that he repeats and repeats and repeats. There was that rally in Mississippi recently, and they're all still chanting, lock her up. Like, Hillary Clinton, that is a long time ago. And there's not even clear who, which her were now talking about. No, was it Dr. Ford, was it, like, just lock any woman up. We'll take anyone up. Like, full families with teenage daughters, all chanting,

lock her up. And it's this thing where, where, like, yes, it can be funny. or it's a phrase and there's nothing and it doesn't mean but then it becomes a thing and that Trump's whole thing is like just repeat phrases and then it will become fact for people it doesn't matter that it's objective fact it's literally just those that that family chanting that believe it's fact so it doesn't matter and I think that's why them like we had women are so careful about language when in relation to men and like how men use language for women like there was that thing going around they're like history

that's his story that's actually not true but like that's not the source of that word but that was like a little thing that went on to the genuine etymology of the word story imagine but some people were like I can't believe it no wonder there's inequality and they're like right well

if we're going that deep in with words like history saying men are trash a lot probably you need to practice what you preach the other way the feminist movement and equality is very important but we can't get there if we just shit on everyone else because that's what's happened to us. So we have to learn how to talk about this stuff and we have to have compassion and we have to like, I don't know, just be kind, I think.

Also, every successful revolution against an oppressive power has always employed redemption and the phrase men are trash does not leave room for redemption. Yes. Right. Perpetuates the battle, and it continues the idea that there is a battle of the sexes and that there has been a loser, but the rightful loser is actually men. And so knowing you turn it around and then everything can be solved. Yeah.

But you just have to, yeah, you have to reach some sort of equilibrium instead. Yeah. The redemption thing is very interesting. When you say that they've always had a been redemption, what do you mean by that idea of redemption? So if you look at the most successful emancipations, in the last century they were the civil rights movement in America and the end of apartheid. And in both cases, the activists did not pursue a campaign of punishment by the campaign of redemption. And as a result, both movements were successful and mainly, mostly peaceful afterwards.

whereas that's not the case with things like communist revolutions or the French Revolution where an enemy was painted and a moral divide was created then you give you allow the victors to

to harm their perceived oppressors without mercy because that's right that's the thing to do and you've whipped yourself into such a frenzy as to like they're the bad people and we're the good people, then when you achieve what you wanted, then everyone just hates those people. So now you've just gone the other way and it's not equal. Yeah, exactly. It's just like a vendetta. Yeah. And I think the vendetta is like it's there, it's there between men and women.

It's in the race. It's in races. It's in like old and young. It's in like leave and remain. It's like, there's no space for redemption anywhere because everyone's so furious. And even if you are on the side where you're like, oh shit, I think I am in the bad group. You're like, I got to just double down here because I can't admit. Yeah. But it's such a complicated issue. I think there's a lot of people who don't know what to say

and they don't know like where's the line and should I get involved and what am I supposed to do? I think the general sort of rule of thumb is like the more men that like feel confident to like call each other out and just be like, hey man, not cool. Not cool is our favorite phrase

because we think it's not cool. Not cool. And then there's no sort of. It's the worst thing I can, it's worse than fuck you. your disgrace. Yeah. That's like, okay, whatever.

Not cool is like, I thought you were better than that. It's, it's that I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed. Yeah, but equally the not cool, it's awful and cuts to your very quick, but fuck you, Phil Wang, makes you go, fuck you.

But if I go, not cool, Phil, you're like, oh, it wasn't? Oh, why? I was thinking about why. Oh, no. Do you know the worst ever not cool moment I ever had? And it's fucking awful, man.

It is terrible. and I remind me, I am reminded of it all the time, and it happened in 2013, 14. Oh, God. And it's relevant to the conversation. And I want to preface it with the, I want to preface it by saying I have grown since then. Of course. I was, I was, I was, I ran a gig in Camden with a friend, Johnny. It's no longer running.

and I would take in the money to the tickets. It was very cheap as like £2 or £4 or £4. And a couple came in, and there was a lady and a man, and the lady had like a big wad of cash. She was holding a big water cash, and she pulled out a £10 or $20, and she handed it to me, and I took it. And I got the change, I wrote on the hands,

and I just handed the change to the man. Right, yeah. And she saw me do that. and she said not cool that is powerful and I felt like I cannot overemphasize how big this

wad of cash she had was she looked like the richest woman I'd ever seen in the world she could not have held more money and I still instinctively handed the cash of the mat and then I apologize on stage when I got up

not to her directly because I didn't want she might not have wanted that but I just, you know, I had to exercise that demons straight away. Yeah. But that not cool stays with me. Yeah. All the time. And it's very valuable.

I think you need to use it within... What would happen if you, Philwag, you're with some mates. Think about friends you have, maybe if you do have them or you don't, who are towards the laity end of the spectrum. Like, I have friends who are like that, but I'm like, sometimes they will say something with them is not cool. And I'm always... And now, I think I do go, like, that's not cool.

and then just continue talking about something else. You'll say out loud that's not cool, then move on. I'll do it once. Okay. And then the other times I'm too frightened to say anything, because often I'll be the only girl in that scenario. But I will feel like, I feel like suddenly, as a girl's saying that,

it's like, oh, I think I was a feminist, great, now you're turning off on evening into a fucking feminist rally. And that's not what I'm doing. But as a guy would not call work if you were in a group of things, and some guy, I don't know, shout to something gross at a girl, or said something like slightly off.

Yeah. Would not cool work as that, or would you still feel a bit like, like, what was that thing? I think in those cases, not cool as I know even in enough. It seems to be passive to me. But would you be able to be quite aggressive

in a group of guys? I mean, of course I'd like to think I would be, but in practice it, I don't know. I mean, if there wasn't any other, if there weren't any women around and they said something, especially if you're comedians, there's always some tacit's assumption that it's meant in good faith

or it's meant ironically or it's meant as a joke. And I think we can usually tell when it isn't. Yeah. And I almost, I sort of believe in sort of, if you don't hear or say something, you're not heard by it. And so if there's not women there to be heard by it, maybe not. Yeah. If it's not an ongoing problem with a specific man,

then it probably might not bear. ruining the evening for. Of course, yeah. And you can't constantly be like a social justice warrior in every single conversation that you have. Yeah, because that is tiresome and not actually the most morally valuable

thing to do, I think, all the time. Yeah. I come to it. Well, like, okay, I'm just going to change it slightly. I think I'm quite lucky also in that our social circle is relatively progressive, right? Yeah, I think so. I think as comedians, one would hope that they are.

Yeah, our age group, our profession. our social political circle. It's all, you know, it's all relative. I'm being a terrible social justice warrior with some of my family, my like extended family. And, you know, at Easter, everybody just teases me. I mean, like, I'm like double down on it because I've carved out a niche for myself

to, like, call out all the, like, wild racism and sexism at the table. And, but I'm aware that I'm not, while I'm just, like, slamming the table constantly, shouting things. it's also taken like ingest but I'm aware that I'm achieving nothing like I'm not doing any good here

I'm playing a cartoon part I'm playing a cartoon hit part here and shouting like toxic masculinity damages us all like while banging the table achieves nothing yeah and worse it can prove their point I'm really annoying I'm really annoying and like

the other day to my dad my dad who I'd like to say is raised daughters and is a fantastic man but also does sometimes say some really questionable stuff like I think it's like that's just an it and that's their generational thing

and certainly not as questionable as some people but anyway it's there and I have now taken to just I invented this character that's like oh yeah you know what Tom you're absolutely fucking right like you know what you work you work all day you come home and the women in your life are blah blah blah And I thought he would hear that and be like,

oh, yeah, shit, that is how it sounds. Like, I sound like this real, like, white van guy. Oh, and I thought, honestly, I thought he'd be like, thank you for showing me. And he went like, his eyes lit up. And he was like, where have you been all my life? When did Tesla get cool? When did the Tesla get cool?

And he literally said, do you want to go to the pub? Oh, my God. He achieved the opposite. He was like, he was thrilled to have this, you know, like, we were talking about like women moving. a table in a restaurant that like if you sat down with two women and you said like, oh, can we move? You'd sit and you just wouldn't even think about it.

You'd carry on the conversation. And if you were with a man, they'd be like, why are we moving? And it would be like a big scene about like moving tables in a restaurant. Such a tiny thing that like became this big debate. And I said like, well, Tom, you know, if a man moved, there'd be a good reason for it. To which my dad said, you're absolutely right. No. Propagating toxic masculinity.

This is a cheap, nothing. I wanted to ask Phil, what's your experience of toxic masculinity? And it helps. It's a big, stupid, over-the-top question. But it just in terms of, like, I know how I feel about it as a woman. But what do you feel about it as a man? May I just put the definition in here? Yes, that's good a time.

Say, like, you know, let's say get urban dictionary up. Coulson masculinity is basically being this sort of prototype of a man. And it's being these very sort of classic exaggerated masculine traits that you're particularly being sort of unemotional, that you aren't allowed to know tears. You know, you're the breadwinner, you're this powerful. man you're not vulnerable you're never weak you don't cry and also it has elements of like violence and also an element of sexual sort of aggression in there that like you should be a man who could get the girl and that's what a that's sort of the idea of toxic masculinity and so I think it's

so I think it's got the word toxic in there because it's so incredibly unhelpful and it's also it's pervasive and it's innocuous so people I've seen elements of toxic masculinity in guys that I absolutely adore. And they, and then when you go like, you obviously, I would never be like, excuse me, that's actually quite toxic. Like, I don't say it like, but in your head you go, yes, it's that level.

If someone who's a full feminist and like really, it's just, it's something that is drilled into boys when they are too young. Yeah. And it's constant. It's a constant, like, this is what a real man is. And anything that deviates from this real man is, you know, is feminine or wussy or girly or not,

allowed and that's a negative and therefore it means that any thought that you have that is a bit effeminate you're like oh i got to crush that i mustn't show any tears and also it's this very if you look at like for example like sort of indiana jones or something if you look at any sort of harrison ford's movies there's a lot of sort of literature on the internet about it that like there's a lot of him just like getting the girl when she says no thank you oh yeah oh man every every one of your favorite 80s movies has a rape in it that that then they become their girl girlfriend. In every single one I've seen.

I watched, I really lately, I, really late, I watched, I watched, um, I watched, uh, Blade Runner. Yeah. He rapes the Android, next scene there, his girlfriend. Yeah. In Rocky, he rapes Adrian and then Adrian's his girlfriend after that. It happened in every single one. I need to rewatch Blade Runner.

That's broken my heart. Bond holds down a lot of ladies who are like, no, James, no, James. I'm literally saying no, no, thank you, James. If you didn't hear that, that was a no, James. No. There's this breathy, it gives this idea of like it. They do like it. They really want it. They do want it. They have to say it. They have to say no to be a prim proper lady, but they do like it. So to me, to Tosuke masculinity is just an imbalance of your priority, right? Because as all of us, as humans, you have to find in your life a balance between strength and compassion. Yeah. Right. Right.

That's, that's, that's, that's, you have to find a balance between strength and compassion. Exactly. Because historically, men have been charged with strength and women have been charged with compassion. Right. But as, as societies have modernized, you have, I guess. and become more egalitarian and less based on pure survival instincts, men don't need to be that brutal anymore. And women don't have to be that passive to men anymore. And so we're sort of trying to meet each other in the middle now. And sometimes women are too compassionate,

and so they're told to lean in. And then sometimes men are too, well, for lack of a better word, strong and are told they're being toxic. And so it's just, and the regularity of which men fail at this determines how toxic that individual is. So I guess I'm relatively not that toxic by guilty of occasional toxicity. How do you feel when you, obviously the not cool thing was terrible. The not cool thing was terrible. But yeah, how do you feel about it and like how do you feel about knowing that you may have some toxicity?

How would you like people to, how do you think it can get better? Awareness is always good, you know, and be aware of, So when you do it and you're aware you've done it, you've done something uncompassionate or selfish or violent even. Well, take note and apologize and try and make up for it, I guess. But there's some people for whom they seem to be lost causes. I mean, especially a lot of the guys who went to school with, you know, I can't imagine coming back from that.

It got really bad in my school, I went to a school in Bath. And there was a real bad atmosphere there of boys will be boys. It was like a con. That's such a thing. And there was a private school as well, which I think can exacerbate that. Yeah, it matters. Because there's like a sense of tradition, old-fashionedness that can add to that. And, oh, I mean, it got really bad.

Like, there's one guy, there was a guy and a girl got in trouble for having sex in the chapel. Okay. And the chapel had to be reconsecrated. Okay. But that's fine, that's just funny. But the girl got excluded. What's the other word? Expelled?

Expelled. She's never allowed to come back? Yeah, and the guy got suspended. And so is allowed to come back? Oh, Lordy. And when there was questioned, what was the answer? No one questioned it, I guess. If they did, it was brushed under the carpet.

Yeah. And the culture was. Well, the culture is so bad, and my head of sixth form, shortly after I left, went to jail for having sex with one of the 15-year-old girls. Good. Oh, my God. Well, there's a lot of things that that's not surprising. It isn't.

You hear so many of these, like, all boy boarding schools. Like, I used to go out with somebody. There was all. And the stories he would tell me, I just couldn't cope with how bad it was. Like, if you were remotely, if you were shorter than a specific type, you just got called gay. Yeah. Like, what? And like, obviously, like, as, you know, as old as we are now, we can be like, that's ridiculous and sort of hilarious because it's so stupid.

But what are you a little kid? And you're like, what, 12, 13, 15. That's just, it's drilling this thing in you. And, I mean, you can see it in the adult male that I used to grow up with it. Like, it was very clear where he was from because his thoughts about women and men and just how his relationships with other men. And this, like, alphaing thing, which I've seen. now recently something happened in a, I was on holiday and my boyfriend got called a gay boy in a bar because he was like, he just was wearing nice clothes I guess

Phil Fanz is hilarious Bill Vines is hilarious. Bill Vines toxic masculinity hilarious but I I found it funny and then he was like he wasn't being like flipping, he was like trying to start on me, Stevie like that's that's what he's doing he's seen him with a girl

he's look at everyone else in here like I don't look like everyone. That's what guys do and I didn't get it just like sometimes he may not get when I'm like, I'm crying so hard because a man looked at me or something. And I realized that I don't understand it. I don't understand the kind of like hidden laws that men will often have with each other

in a group of men and literally not all men. But like there is something that permeated that as women we don't get and I kind of want to understand it more and I think it does come from that like boys will be boys thing. Yeah, it's also a competition and I mean, to be honest, I don't, I'm not very attuned to it either. Yeah.

Because I've always, you know, I've always tried to appeal to the, well, it was never an option for me to be that kind of man, you know. Yeah. I think you have to be quite, you know, into sport and into things that are literally combative. Yeah, to show how you are the strongest. Yeah, whereas I've always been more into comedy and art. And so, we celebrate, which celebrate, but they'll celebrate different values. And they'll celebrate those build within you a different sense of the value construction. You don't feel the need to prove yourself by being aggressive.

Whereas they were brought up in an environment where that was how you did prove your value by being aggressive and winning. But I find, and this is from like doing stand-up and, you know, stag groups. Stag groups always come in the same hierarchy. There's the stag who is sort of the head. But the real power behind the throne is like the enforcer character. He's a quieter one. And then there's the clown who's usually the fat one. everyone makes fun of and he's embraced that

at least on the surface yeah yeah and then like a really dumb one and then you're miscellaneous see that's absolutely fascinating because that is so true now I'm thinking about at school there was this like group of guys who were just horrible bullies

but there was only one that was the bully and then everyone else fit it into those categories the guy that clearly wasn't attractive enough on anything that massive quotation marks to be all good at sport but he was funny so he kind of got a free pass because he could make everyone laugh

and then yet the miscellaneous is hilarious because there are so many of them there's all standing around and they're like occasionally saying like yeah right and I think that goes that goes through like that goes through to now like people don't change just because they're out of school

like that I think that is now groups of male friends will have similar structures and I think I'm just trying to like find a way that you can bring it up or you can talk about how if there's any difference that can be made I guess just like understanding it like you say accepting it

knowing that it's there and being aware also as women being aware that it's not a nice thing to hear if like as a guy it's not nice thing to hear like well it's because you're being toxic or like it's like yeah I don't think it's a phrase that we should use and I think your redemption thing is so spot on

that like fighting fire with fire just makes the world burn but like attempting to be like hey like I mean hey let's talk about what you've said there or like finding another route in and if it's like... Also, toxic is very vague and people are much more receptive

to a specific... And also like... A specific challenge. And I think something that you're seeing at the moment is when I talk about as like Brett Kavanaugh trial that happened in the autumn that like this guy who wants to be the Supreme Judge

and everybody sort of came out in this like, well, boys will be boys and you know, let's not accuse him of the thing that he did when he was a teenage boy. And it's clear that he knows he did this thing and that he doesn't think it's a problem. Like he doesn't think he did anything properly wrong. He's like,

it was a bit of... found in a cupboard, like, what's the issue here? And when you see people really coming down on this, like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, let's not start throwing things around. It's because everyone's like looking through their own back catalogue and being like, oh shit, were those? Are those not okay? Because I've got a binders full of things I did.

Yeah, well, I've seen a renaldo thing's really interesting because it is, I just saw a headline. We just did do it. Like, it's something, like, it was back in 2009 or whatever, and she said no, and then there's like a printed document of, she said no, and no, and no. And now after he said, I'm sorry, I'm usually a gentleman and all of this, but he's now saying it didn't happen. And it's very confusing because it's very like the footballer kind of thing is such a toxic

environment. Like no footballer will ever come out as gay. Like, I mean, everyone thought he was gay. So I was quite surprised this. Doing that with women. It's kind of like a free pass. So footballers will be terrified because there's so many stories of... And you would if like you're that powerful and you're that famous and you've got that

much money. You're like, you've got this sort of free pass. And then it's like, lad, lad, lad. Here we all are behave. Definitely not gay. Definitely not gay. Yeah. We're all naked in the showers.

But like, let's get some women in here. here to make sure no one questions anything that we did like you know and it's such a intense environment obviously loads of questionable stuff people have happened it always amuses me to think how much men have sex for other men yeah a lot of the time we have sex it's not for us saying just saying you have it yeah or at school like like guys now saying like yeah I mean like we did used to talk about our wanks a lot and I was like what like what So then that would mean that they're wanking just to talk about it, to say that they have.

And then lots of guys that are being like, I never did, but I just said I did. And then when anyone questioned me, like in the 40-year-old virgin, that film, which again, toxic masculinity, he's fine to be a virgin at 40. But when he goes like, and what did the boob feel like that you? And he's like, oh, it felt like a bag of sand. Yeah.

He clearly hasn't felt a boob. And like, that thing of like, you're not a man unless you're like plowing through the women. And like, you know, and I don't know, there's something so wrong about. it because there shouldn't be a definition of like one thing just like there shouldn't be a definition for women there shouldn't be a definition for men. I think it's something that like has to begin with the next generation and it's something of like teaching schools and we have to

get this sort of all the lies about what people did at parties and everyone needs to like admit that like it and be like you know what I haven't touched a boob and I'm okay with that and the imagine school. I remember an incredible I haven't touched a boob and I'm okay with that get that on a t-shirt. I remember university an incredibly good looking boy saying he was a in the coolest way possible and I was like Jesus Christ he was just like oh I actually haven't had sex and I remember being like I've never ever heard anyone say that with that with not they didn't go like oh my god it wasn't like this to me in secret it was said to many people and like it was there was such confidence I was like oh my

yeah but he must have at least known he was good looking then that's cool if he wasn't good looking that would be the least cool thing you about yeah you're right but you can be not good looking and you can just like we've talked about it before on the podcast about like there's something about people that just are who they are and just say stuff like that. And because they've said it, like, it's the person, like, not cool guys. And you're like, wow.

What gave him the authority or her the authority to think that she can say that? And I'm glad and she can have that authority. To have that sort of self-confidence to be like, yeah, I'm a virgin. Like, is great. And it's such a thing that, but I think, like, you can't force school kids to do that because they just won't. No, I think you can quietly feed, like, confidence and just owning, and if you are, that thing, I think, So right about what we said about strength and compassion.

If you are on the compassionate side, just being like owning that and being like, this is the thing I'm good at and this isn't, it doesn't have to do, I'm not lacking because I'm not in this camp. This is who I am and I'm allowed to be any kind of person that I want to be. I just feed that into the kids until everyone of them comes out like confident and strong and okay in themselves.

And they won't because it's always going to be people, not nice humans who don't like other people. But all of it comes from fear that you aren't the right sort of person. Of course you don't think they're being told to be one. what you want to be is in conflict with combating toxicity because it's not so much that you should be who you want to you're allowed to be what you want to be but that you have responsibility to others isn't it i think if you don't hurt anybody in being who ever you want to be then do what yeah i guess if who you want to be is a sada is for some people that is jenny what they want

to be yeah i guess is finding that it's and that's so tough isn't it's like why do we say you know the boys who want to do ballet you go live your time truth but the boys you want to punch animals were like you may not live your truth like you know where do we that's a whole that's a whole other camp and if that's what's inside you and that's the thing that you want to do like who are we to say like

this one is all right and this one can thrive and be okay and this one we stop but crucially we as girls as well it's exhausting and I am angry quite a lot sometimes but I think we need to try and control it as much as possible and show that compassion and show

that like basically not go around say all men and trash. Yeah, it's on us totally. It's a symbol. It's, and it takes a lot of work and you're like, oh, I'm exhausted. I don't want to be the teacher anymore. Like, you've got to be.

Like, we've got to be banging at this glass ceiling until the generation behind us get to crack it. Like, and if we don't be the ones who smash it, like, that's okay. We broke it enough for it to break for someone behind us. And you have to like, take on that that's what your role is. Yeah. And just keep letting that space and be like, hey, let's talk about that thing you said.

And can we. Yeah, rather than shouting, fuck you, whang. I can do that. It helps, I don't mind. It won't help because you just want to shout, fuck you back. I'm pretty passive. I don't know.

I'm pretty too. Well, at least we figure out how to talk to Phil Wang. Like, I think, yeah, I mean, we've essentially just, we haven't solved anything, but you could never solve this, because if you could, then it wouldn't exist. I think there's also,

we should also accept the gradual nature of this improvement. I was hoping it would be sorted. And impatience, and impatience just makes it worse. Like, of course, things are not ideal now, but there's so. so much better than they used to be.

And it will get better. The moral arm of the universe tells them. People are doing huge, massive jumps in learning in their brains that, you know, we're realizing things that we didn't know were bad or bad. And it takes a lot. And I think that's part of the frustration the Brett Kavanaugh's of the world are having. In that genuinely, those decades ago, the moral standards were different. So why am, so they think it is unfair for me to be judged by today's standards for something

I did when the standards are different. Which I would now not do because now. I know, but then you're like, would you not? Like, it's impossible to tell. It is impossible to tell. Whether he has fully grown and it's like, it's okay. Like, I actually would never do that now and I understand it. Or whether he's just like saying that.

Like it's impossible. But we can't, just like we can't always, you know, I would never dream of being like presuming a woman is lying about an accusation. We also can't presume the other way as well. You can't presume that the man did it as well. Immediately jump to the other. I sound like Trump. But that's the thing isn't it.

It's like, when David Cameron, when they said he put his dick in a pig, everyone's like, I don't need any evidence. I'm on board. I don't need another word. I know that to be true. Whereas we want to believe baddies did things and we don't want to dream that Christina Rinaldo did anything bad because people got pictures of it on his wall. Like we don't want Woody Allen and Louis C.K.

And although like the heroes, we can't bear for them to go down because we like them. Whereas we're like David Cameron, yes, please give us more. Yeah. On this guy. We'll have it. And we don't need to. be told that if someone told us that isn't true about the pig everyone's like don't believe you. I think it's true.

The most compelling rule of thumb I read was in response to the whole hashtag I believe her thing. Yeah. It's not the correct response to accusations of sexual assault is not just to believe the victim, but to take the cases seriously. And that's what hasn't been happening. So the cases were not taken seriously. Yeah. It's not that the victims should have been believed outright every single time,

but the cases are simply not taken seriously. So as long as you take the cases seriously, as you say, and actually look into it. the intricacies of whatever happened will hopefully come to the right decision. Yeah, and I think it's that and it's quite right, it's like, doesn't help I mean, while obviously Dr. Ford, I'm sure, was like real buoyed up by this like outpouring of support. She's having a horrible time, I think.

I know, and I don't doubt that for her, she's having a nightmare, but I imagine it was like, I'm sure that helped her and it helped people feel united around her. Exactly that. There isn't help just like keep the sides at war. Let's have this like impartisan middle ground that's like, thank you everyone. Let's have a proper investigation.

It's coming from both sides. People hate, like people are too far going like immediately not believing it. And then there are people who are immediately believing it. And it's just like everything. Neither. Both of those. To her credit, that is her attitude and not his.

She's the one who wants an FBI investigation. He's on who doesn't. So I think in that in that case, we use that as an example, but I think it's all year. I think it's about like the people that around it that like most of us will not be involved in an FBI investigation in our lives. Touch wood, everyone.

We'll only be like, touch wood, everyone. We'll only be. following it from a distance and rowing MI5, fingers crossed, will only be rowing about it in the pub with limited information and having this like furious row and picking sides and I think that's a space where everyone needs to like stop joining in like let's calm down take it on case by case rather than be like this is this says this

about men this means that men do this of course lots of men do do that means that one man did this in this one instance and let's keep taking it and rather than making these huge sweeping generalizations that men are trash. And I just really hope that we don't come across like Trump in this. But I don't think I have. I don't think so. I thought, I've not thought that. Except for when you've said I'm like Trump now. That's the only time. Until you've raised it. No one was even thinking it. Right. The red cap isn't helping. Yeah. And the fact that I'm a Trump supporter. It doesn't help. Um,

make him make a great again cap. Yeah. Not, not great. But if you like, I mean, I'd love to hear about any thoughts you have on it. Emails. Nobody Panic Podcast at Gmail. and tweet us at Nobody Panicpod or me if you want to just really like direct abuse specifically at me at Stevie MBSS is a five at testicoats at Gokwan no what is it Twitter is at Phil N wang end for November Phil N wang is you middle in November is a lovely name of Nathaniel I'm afraid oh that's very powerful yeah join in the debate in a calm way come in and I think yeah keep calling people out keep off offering space for redemption and learning and improvement and admit that, you know,

not everyone has to be perfect first time around, but if people are trying, then, well, you know, well done. Trying is important. And, yeah, we have, like, there are people, there's a lot of toxic masculinity out there. And I think we just have to, like, I literally don't know how to stop it. And I don't think we can, but talking about it helps. And being aware that it's happening rather than being like, that guy's a prick. Be like, that guy's a prick for a reason.

And it's sad rather than, like, I hate him. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, everyone's just, you know. And don't send your son to an old boy's boarding school. Or if he does, equip him with all the skills he needs before he gets it. Loads of weaponry. The bionic arm. They need to get into the hunger game.

That's, otherwise they can't get in. That's the bottom. Have an amazing international men's day. And if you are on Instagram or a Twitter, be nice to a man today. Be nice to a man and post about a man that you love or your dad or a brother or a husband or a boyfriend or somebody in your life and say good things about them. Yeah, let's cover... Compliment a man day. Compliment a man day.

And a smile wouldn't heard once in a while. And on that note, goodbye!