Nobody Panic - How to Tell if Someone is Lying

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Or IS that the title of this episode? Yes. Or IS IT?!? Yes. A deep dive in body language experts, what you can learn about eye movement, hand gestures, 'truth wizards' and always trusting your gut. Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Clarissa Maycock for PlosivePhotos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The date is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace. It's coming to London. True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September at King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Welcome to Nobody Pem. I do welcome you in. How can you tell? You'll be able to tell at the end of this episode. Hello, Tessa, Coates. Hello. Hello.

Stevie Martin, if that is indeed, your real name. Is it? Is it? Yes. She wouldn't have made that up. Yeah. She's a better one like, Jontie Pantscape.

That's right. Today's episode is about how to spot if someone is lying. I think it is a request that we had a long, long time ago. And we thought, ooh, that's a good one. And then Stevie Today was like, you know what? I'm really in. And yes, and I did some readings and found out some things. Oh, God.

I'm excited to share. But before we do, what's the most adult thing you've done of the week, Tessa? Mine is, I have been watching a show on Netflix called The Home Edit. Oh, why is it? Two women, two American ladies, they come to your house, they put things in rainbow order. Okay, yeah, I mean... You can imagine it. It's a real constant with you, isn't it?

Yeah, I love it. But it's made me understand something that I won't reveal yet. I will share it for my... Don't think I'm not going to do an episode about how much I like the home edit. But I've got a very small basement in our block of flats. The basement is not much larger than a person. It's a size of a person. Right.

Everyone gets like a locker basically that you could sort of walk into. Okay, yeah. Very small. Right. And obviously I've just thrown things in from floor to ceiling. You can't get anything unless it's immediately at the front. Yes, of course. As is the way.

As is the way. I've decided to make a home edit style shelving unit in there, really commit. Yeah, get it. Oh, my God, it's going to be sewn. Oh, you can't even believe how nice it's going to be. But the adult thing is that I've actually, rather than, Just like, I've been like, okay, I need shelving and then just buying some shelving. Or finding some wood on the street.

Or finding some wood on the street, as is my want. I've measured first. Oh my God, I've never heard you ever say that. Right? Word. I drew up a design idea. Well, I said you to that. No, no.

I've never, never like, I've drawn designs, but I've never written. On napkins. Yeah, I've drawn designs on napkins, sure. But I've never written a number beside them. This is true. You've combined a design idea with realism. Yeah. I've brought realism in because they do this.

They plan, they measure the space. So I'm just replicating what they're doing on the show. So I'm actually measuring, thinking ahead, rather than being surprised about the size of things. This is great. I know. I feel really excited. And I planned everything out rather than just going in blind and working out when I get there.

How does it feel to be doing that? It feels electric. Okay, great. When I realized how deep the space was and I was like, oh, I'll buy the shelf that's that. Then I actually went down and measured how big the shelf I had thought I would initially get would be. And it was like a doll's shelf.

I was like, wow. Imagine working out this now and not when it arrives. When it arrives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you've got all this stuff ready to go in. And you're like, oh, I'm just sat there with the doll's shelf. And what the fuck was I thinking? And now...

And then you have to make a basement for the doll. Right. Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, it felt incredible. I felt like a town planner. Wow. So that's where I'm at. I have actually done it.

But I have done, I think, a big important step for me. I think it's excellent. Yeah. It's huge. progress from me. I mean, it's also just huge progress in general, so congrats on that. Thanks so much. Similar sort of DIY, well, not a DIY at all, house-based one. Oh, yeah. I mean, about, I think, maybe a year ago, my adult thing was that I'd taken control of the thermostat. Oh, wow.

So I'd learned. I didn't remember that. I learned how to set the temperature. Okay. And schedule it. And I went to do my normal thing, which is to go, Oh, we need to set the temperature. So it comes on at certain times and it was off at certain times. And then just of walked away and hoped the shadow would do it. And then if he didn't, I just keep saying things like, oh, it's a shame that the temperature's not working. Until he did it. So then I was like, no, I'm going to go in with this.

Because in our old flat, he just knew all the things. And I didn't know any of the things. I didn't even know how to work the dishwasher or where the Hoover was, all of this stuff, because he basically controlled all of it. So I was like, right now I'm going to be the one who could. controls the temperature, thank you. So I got the little book out and like learn and programmed it all in. And then recently got sunny, we were like, okay, let's change it. And then I was like, okay, so I changed it. And then basically it was coming on at all different times, all different

heats. No one, I didn't know. And I just sort of left it for a bit, being like, I'm sure it'd be fine. It'll work itself out famously. Thermostat's like to just sort of change the temperature. They sort of anticipate what you want without you having to input them in. And then the other day I was like, no, I'm going to do it. And I figured out what the problem was. I troubleshooted the thermostat. That was my adult thing. I set it and now I've troubleshot it. Wow. Now the temperature works great. Oh my God. How do you feel? I honestly nearly burst into tears when I'd done it. I felt so strong. I felt like this fly is mine. Yeah. The air, I've controlled the temperature of the air in my abode. That's unbelievable. That's very powerful when you really think about it. That's unbelievable.

you, Stevie. It's unbelievable, largely. Now, the question is, Stevie, is that a true story? It would have been so cool. If I could say, no, it wasn't, and here's all the ways that you could tell, but I didn't have the thought. Oh, God, that would have been cool. I didn't have the forethought, but I could have done some of the things that people think it's the common myth about lying. Do you know something extraordinarily that I enlightened my passion for this particular subject? Please. One of the dreadful, small missing girls' cases that have happened in our lifetime. Oh, yes. One of the many. One of the many. I discovered that they put the family members to do that public announcement asking for information.

They actively put people that they suspect no more than they know to do the public. And then they look at it and go, she touched her left earlo. Recently, in one of the terrible ones where it turned out to be, you know, the grandmother's boyfriend, one of those dreadful ones, he did the public announcement. Hundreds of police investigators, retired ones, came out of retirement to be like, he knows where she is. And he did. Isn't that, oh, they're known as truth wizards. No, they're not. Yes. Are you joking? The truth wizard? Oh, bloody hell. The truth wizards, they came down from their trees. A truth wizard is a person who can detect lies with 80% accuracy. In the original study of

truth wizards, only 50 people out of 20,000 people were natural lie detection officinados. So there are many instances where people will feel that something isn't right about somebody. And the problem is that that can very often be to do with inherent social biases. So if somebody looks like they are, well, if a missing girl goes missing, say, imagine. There'll be certain people around her that immediately people will presume did it based on the fact. Well, it's also based on facts. So men are more likely to commit certain types of crimes than women are, all of that sort of thing. But sometimes that can go above actual lie to detect.

And also as well, there are certain people that you meet that you go and someone tells you a story and you go like, I just felt that was false. And what's difficult about lie detection is that, say, 50% of that will be because they may be exhibiting cues and ticks and things that on a subconscious level your brain is recognizing as being false. And you might not be able to say, oh, it's because he did this or it's because he or she spoke like that. but you'll just naturally make a gut response reaction. And interestingly, the gut response reaction has validity because we are able to read the context of things much deeper than our conscious can kind of understand. However, it's not reliable because you bring into every single interaction

you ever have. When I was 12, I was friends with a prolific liar who looked and sounded a bit like that person. Sure. Or you misread. Often nerves could be misread as lying. And a big thing as well is the way people immersexual. in high stress situations.

Some people don't actually feel emotion. And so that when you are trying to talk about something that has happened a long time ago, that you actually are not emotionally connected to, or it's really complex. Like, you actually are telling the truth, but you also hate them. So you're not going to, for example, cry because they said something,

because you actually hate their guts, but they also did do that, for example. So then you look cold. Then the jury believe you're going. So then you have to try and force crying or force, you know, and that can be, difficult. So it can look like you're lying, but actually, and you are lying because you don't actually feel that, but you're not lying about the fact. So that's why lying is so difficult

to detect. So there are various ways that you can sort of get closer to detecting a lie. The most, and I'll just start with the most obvious one, which is you have to think about the person that you are talking to and that you're trying to kind of detect the lie with. So if that person, and this is why we're not talking about being some sort of like FBI, interrogated because they don't know them, but like friends and people around you, you will probably be able to tell if someone is a bit of a liar anyway, because when you speak to them, do they tell anecdotes about how they bent the truth? Have you actually also seen them lie? Is this person reliably quite straightforward? Or are they not? And that's like the most kind of, they're the first

step. Absolutely. Okay, so we're going to go through some lie myths. Okay. If people look to the left, they are lying. So that's a real kind of. common thing because there's something about the science about eye direction, which has some validity, but it's not reliable. So basically, yes, people may look to the left when they're telling you something, but that could literally be because a seagull just flew past the wind. May I ask you a question? Yes. How many windows do you have in your house? Five. Okay. Which way is that for you? Right. Okay. Very good. Okay. So it was one of the ones I did. read about years ago that was like when you searched something in your memory, like right

then you went visually into your head to look. Yes. And there was no reason for you to pretend. So your memory bank to the right is where your eyes go and they did immediately. Okay. Very interesting. So that was your immediate place. Then then went straight up. Okay. Straight across there. Over there for a bit. And then round again. But I do think when you were truly counting, they were straight down there, which was very interesting. Oh my God. That is interesting. Okay, so lying myth, is it a myth or possibly true? So I would say that the memory search to the right, I would say, is a thing. But whether you can then discount anybody who looks, you did go round in a full clockwise circle. That means she doesn't know what

she's doing. So you couldn't like discount something, but your immediate one was straight to there. And when you went to look, you did go there again. So I can believe that that is a thing. But I don't think you can also, you know. Yes. And I think of an issue is that people, know that. So there's another thing which is what as well, if someone is trying to lie to you, there are certain things that people will do to kind of cover that because they know they don't want to appear like they're lying.

Well, that bit in Ocean's 11 when he's like don't look down, they know you're lying, don't look up, they know you don't know the truth. Yeah, and then I was always like, where shall I look? Yeah, cross-eyed. Cross-eyed, straight at them, straight ahead. Terrifying. And that's the other thing. The myth is that lies can't look you in the eyes. This whole thing is like, you know me in the eye and lie.

It's like, yes, that's the whole point. So people actually, perversely, may look too much in your eyes. I think like, like I would say both of us are guilty of lying about things, but they've always been like, I cannot come to this and I am sorry. I would say like, if I ever was on trial, everyone would have to come out and be like, the girl's an absolute fantasist, you know, she's, yeah, everyone would like, has she ever lied to be like, absolutely, she told me the story about, you know, like, but mine aren't

like, you know, so some people are like, I went to school with a girl who said that she was like born on a whale, you know, like all of this sort of shit. So like, not that, but like, I'm sorry, she was born on a whale. Yes, yeah. Famously, this girl said she was born on a whale. Okay. And so, like, my stories are absolutely embellishments for a good yarn. Yeah.

And they are, I couldn't attend this thing, but I was just very sorry, you know? Absolutely, but you're in the red zone, as I might. What's the red zone? If someone's trying to detect a lie, they'll be like, right, well, she's failed the first stage. Yeah, absolutely. But I would say, like, they don't come from a bad place necessarily, whereas I say neither of us have ever been like... I've definitely, I've definitely lied in a... meaningful way. Have you? Yeah, well I've had like, I've been in bad relationships where lying

becomes part of the relationship where you are like, and it's obviously not being like, I've killed someone, I've said that I haven't, or like, but like lying, the thing is is is that lying often always comes from a good place. Yeah. Like you don't want to hurt the person. That's, essentially, or you don't want to look bad. So it's those two things. And the one that's the less palatable one is not wanting to look bad. But I'm like, but I'm not. definitely like broken something and pretended I haven't. Oh right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when I'm like, I think we're all right. I've basically been like, we've never killed anyone and said we haven't. But I've absolutely broken things and said it wasn't me. Yeah, or I've told someone I felt a certain way about

them and I haven't. You know, I think lying is something that you go like, oh, I'm not a liar. And then actually like as human beings, it's if you didn't lie, you would be quite difficult to be around. socially. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. But it's about keeping tabs on it and trying to be honest as much as you can. I think there are only very few points in life where you are being like, you need to tell me the truth about this. Did you or did you not do this? And it could be like, are you cheating on me? It could be like, did you tell that person the thing I told you not to tell them? Yes. I did. There we go, yeah. And then if it's something that you perceive to be not that important, then it's like, that's the response. Like, oh, yeah, there's some gossiping. But then if it's something that's really going to hurt and you knew you really shouldn't have said something,

but you couldn't help it. Like, I think that I've done that where, like, I've got drunk or got, and I've sort of like told someone something. I've been like, yeah, did you hear this? Like, it's really bad. And then someone's like, you didn't tell that person, did you? And I've been like, no. And they were like, well, you did because you're the only person.

I've been Rebecca Vardy. Killeen Ronead. And then... Yeah, it was me. It was Rebecca. Dot, dot. It was Stevie Martin's account. Stevie.

But then, again, the reason I did it was because I thought I was doing a good thing. I thought that when that person knew, they would be able to change their behaviour. And I sort of thought too well of them. And actually turns out that they were a dickhead. And so, like, you know, there was a reason beyond what the person had told me not to tell them. There was a reason behind that that I'd gone, like, the thing is, as I see. seem better. And I think if they both just got along and everyone knew everything, they'd be friends again. And then I found out another piece of information and was like, yeah, no, I can see.

No, absolutely should not have told that person. So like, yes, they come from good places. But that's, I think, what people tell themselves who lie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it's that thing of being like, everyone's like, oh, I'm not a liar. But you're like, yeah, you lie constantly every day. You thought that the party was fun. It wasn't. I had a lovely time at the party. Thank you. That was delicious. I had a lovely time at your restaurant. Yes, you're hair is nice. Wow. Yeah.

I'm really getting in. Yeah. Yeah. Like I suppose everybody does that all day, every day that they consider not to be lies and they would consider a lie to be like, I do know where this thing, this body is and I'm actively not saying anything. Yes. And I think we've got some midsummer murder complex.

Yeah. Like I went through a very short period of time of being like, if I, whenever I saw anybody who was doing a show or something, I'd be like, I saw your show and it was great. And sometimes I hadn't, but I just wanted to make them feel good. And it was like, don't. don't say you've seen someone's show. Or like if someone says like, oh, there's like a film on, I'd be like, oh yeah, no, I heard of that.

And I haven't. But like, just don't say anything. You don't have to have heard of everything or like, be like making everyone feel good and complimented all the time. If you don't like someone's shoes, you don't have to go, they're the best shoes I've ever seen. Where did you buy them and then go and buy them? You could just go, just not mention the terrible shoes that you don't like.

Yeah. So there's like lots of different types of, in quotation marks, liars. but the broad thing seem to be lying to make everyone feel better. Then there's the more dark and sinister, lying because you enjoy manipulating people. Oh gosh. Yeah, and that's difficult. And then there's lying to get yourself out of trouble. And then there's why it lies.

And of course, the other thing is that just to go back to the myths and stuff, one of the myths is that like emails and what's something and stuff is where people are most likely to lie. yes in a social setting but not in like more serious like workplace because in a workplace there's a paper trail with emails so it's actually on the phone where you'll get more

dodgy lying happening in a work setting because nobody can prove anyone said in the thing so that's always worth keeping an eye on as well so those like the four main kind of myths that come up and then the seven steps

to telling whether someone is lying please. The number one is what we've mentioned about. Identify prolific liars in your life. Sure. Can they, have they caused harm to others in the past by lying constantly, regardless of where it's coming from. Step two is just my favourite. Find the nose. Okay. The story of Pinocchio with his nose getting big, obviously that's ridiculous, but there is a bit of truth behind it. So, according to this neurological director, he's named Alan Hirsch. Hi Alan. When a person lies, And we're talking big lies here. We're talking like on the spot lies, not like, I liked your birthday party. This is a great way of putting it. Blood flow increases to the erectile tissues in the body, which includes the tissues in the nose.

So oddly, people's noses can genuinely become itchy when they're lying. Wow. Which is why Pinocchio is lying cues in his nose. It's not really a coincidence. And there's a very great, not great, video Bill Clinton. They found that in his grand jury testimony with the Monaco, Lewinson, It's a good thing. Neurologists found that when the former president was truthful, he literally never touched his nose. However, when he lied, he gave a split-second frown and touched his nose once every four minutes during the last. Wow. And also, Clinton ended up touching his nose to love 26 times during his testimony. Mismatched hand gestures is the other thing. So often that's when people will gesture with their hands, but they'll, for example, be looking in like the opposite direction. So they use the Bill Clinton example again. He looks to his left, but points in front of. him. When wrongly accused, people will look often directly at their accuser and if pointing, we'll point in the same direction, not in a different way. And that's because they feel full

conviction in what they're saying. Whereas if you feel any lack of conviction, then you may not know what to do with your hands on a subconscious level because you're overthinking it and you've lost conviction in what you're saying. So there may be things like unfinished sentences as well, unfinished thought trains, going to make a gesture and then kind of like backing out of it. but they may be holding eye contact with you the entire time because they've picked one and that's the one that they're running with but they can't control all other tells, if that makes sense.

And often the first tell that people know about is the eye contact thing. So that's why people will actually probably go for that one over what they're doing with their hands. I suppose it comes down to like casual lying and active lying. Yeah, intense lying. Lying with intent. Like an actively like, I know I have done a crime

and now I will pretend I have not done a crime. Yes. And that becomes like a performance of, I'm very conscious of my hand gestures. I'm conscious of all my words because the entire thing is fabricated. It's not a memory. Whereas more casual lying of just like, I had a lovely time. You're not as aware of yourself. There's less to hide.

Yeah, you're not in a spotlight. If you're lying and it's one of those intent lines, you feel like the spotlight is literally being shined on you. And you're like, everything I'm doing. Everything got mannerism is, I'm aware of everything. And so I think it's just about like it turned like how to spot them. The first half second after you've asked somebody a question is probably where all the answer is. Yeah. Their uncontrollable response before they, like, put their mask up.

And if your gut feels weird in that half second, even if you're like, I couldn't really put my finger on what it was they'd done specifically. It's like, yeah, probably trust your gut. It's this like your big erect, itchy nose got hot and red. Well, all of those little towels and things are like a percentage of it. But the big percentage of it is if there's something wrong, and I'm talking about it, big thing, you will get a sense of it. Obviously, we're not talking about if you're a judge. We're talking about like partners, friends, family members.

You know, we could say all the list till the cows come home of like the things to look out for. But ultimately it's like, you know this person and is their behaviour in this moment not on brand? Yeah. You know, years ago, my housemate came home. Absolutely wild. Like came in, shouted like, hello, I'm home.

I've had a good day. And then like, March. around and was like, how are you? And eventually I was like, what? What's happened? And then she was like, I fell off my bike, but I didn't want anyone to know. So I thought I would style it out by pretending I had a really good day. I was like psychotic behavior from you. And so like, just like listen to that bit that's like, what's this? What's this and what's going on? What are they trying to hide? But that's difficult because sometimes lies can be really hurtful, especially in relationships and things like that's the big lying thing, isn't it? That people want to want to.

want to know about, is he cheating? Is she cheating? Are they cheating? But it's because you don't want to see it. And so your brain will protect you very well, even to the extent where when it all comes out, someone goes like, oh, I think I did know on a certain. I did know. I just didn't, you know. So they were actually living in this state of knowing and pretending they didn't know, whilst fully functioning and sort of thinking it was fine. And it's when you say it like that, it's crazy. But I've been in a relationship where that happened. And it was just like, I completely, knew. When I look back, I, a hundred percent knew that he was cheating on me. But in that moment, or in that time, if you devout, I'd be like, no. Like, it's like, also, 100% didn't.

Because, like, my brain had, like, sort of was protecting me and was showing me all of the things that, oh, well, you're being silly, there's no hard evidence. It's like, well, there's enough, in there, you know, there's enough circumstantial, soft evidence. Some soft evidence, a soft launch of evidence from, from him. Yeah, I think that's also the, one of the biggest kind of stumbling blocks, which we obviously mentioned right at the end, but what the, the biggest sort of stumbling blocks to detecting if someone you love is lying to you because you're often, you really are blinded by what you want the outcome to be. And that's why there's a lot of like, you know, oh, well, if he touches his ear,

she touches his nose. If she touches his nose, then they're lying? But yes, you want those very definite signs. But actually, often you will already know the probability of the answer. and you can like that's like where your basis comes from because somebody who has never once exhibited any trait or lying or anything or cheating or anything is one thing but if somebody is a proven, has a proven track record of not being truthful

then you obviously have to take them from a completely different baseline which is much higher up the scale which is more likely to be like okay fine they're not touching the nose but they have cheat on every person they've ever been with for example so there's that as well which I think yeah it's very difficult to kind of overall say this is literally exactly how to say when someone is lying. But yes, trust you got a little bit more than I think we feel we should. Because we don't want to be paranoid, jealous, crazy people. And when people turn and point and get angry back, that says so much more about actually what's going on. You know, if you ask somebody, are they lying? And they're

immediately defensive, furious. Their response is kind of out of proportion with what you said. Or they immediately, you immediately feel like, you walk away with in like, I'm a terrible person for even having asked, then there's a reason that they've made you feel like that. You know, it's like the gaslighting thing. Or big nose. Also their massive fat nose. Gosh, what a lot to chew on and dwell on. I was just thinking, I think a good one, and I know we're coming to the end here,

but like if you do believe someone is lying to you about something, try accusing them of something you know for sure they haven't done. Like if you know they've eaten a yoghurt or something and then be like, did you eat this although you know they definitely have any in the yoghut. Yeah. You say, did you eat the yogurt? And they're like, no, it wasn't me. But if they're like, why would you say I ate the, you know?

And then you're like, okay, that is there. That is how they behave when threatened in any way about anything, even things they haven't done. Yes. You know? But I would say, like, most people being accused of something, they definitely haven't done, would be like, no, why do you think I've done that? Yeah, like, incredulity rather than being angry.

Being angry. It's such a sign, isn't it? Especially within relationship. And also, if I was accused of that by a partner that I hadn't done, I think I would be like, Oh no. And why do you think that? Like it would be a sadness. What am I done to make you feel like that? I'm like, oh, I'm really sorry that you. What's, oh no. What's happened? What's happened? As opposed to like, how do you throw them from the balcony? Yeah. I'm be like, I did it. I absolutely did. You know, I wouldn't immediately jump to Fury. Yeah. But who's to say? That's the basic. That's the episode. Who's to say. We don't really know. But a bit of fun to hear about it. She is. It's ultimately, as with so many things, try.

Yo gut. And I will end with a lie I once told. Oh yes. In my first year at university, in my first week. In fact, Ben Starr, a friend of the podcast. Friend of the podcast. Friend of ours. Podcast listener. His extremely cool older girlfriend who did not go to the university came to, I was in a play with

him. I was a fresher. I felt very like, oh, here I go. She was talking to me after the play at the aftercast party. And she had a badge on from an Edinburgh play. and I was like, oh my God, I loved that play. And she was like, I wrote it. I was like, uh-oh.

I haven't seen that play. Luckily, I just kept saying how I'm good it was. Then she was like, were you in Edinburgh? And I said, yes, I was doing a play. Toad, what a lie. I just had visited for the weekend. Terrifying lie. Just wanted to be cool in front of the cool girl.

She was like, oh, what play was it? I was like, oh, my head was like, you idiot. Like, of course she's going to say, what play? Yeah. So, but I did know that my. My friend, my very cool friend, was up doing a play of The Master and the Margarita. So I say, oh, you wouldn't have seen it. It was the Master and the Margarita.

She was like, oh my God, I loved it. So not only, and I had not seen the play. And you were not in it. I wasn't in the play, but also I hadn't seen the play. If I haven't got any concept of like, I haven't read the book. I don't know what happens. Is it just a master? I mean, I know it's got a cat on the poster, but I still haven't seen it to this day.

What's the Margarita? Is it a pizza? Like, I don't know how many characters there are in it. Right. She was like, oh my God, I loved that. looking at me in the eye, I was like, oh no. Then she was like, who were you? And I'm like, correct question.

Who was I? And then she holds me by the shoulder and she goes, oh, my God, you were the witch. And I say, yes, I was the witch. To this day, I don't know if there is a witch in the Master and the Marketer. And I just, that was a turning point in my life. Because up until that point, I had just been like, oh, I've been, I've done. I wouldn't ever say I've been to Japan, but had I been some... This is funny, it's like, that, I know you're saying that as an example,

but it's like, I would think I would never lie about it was being to Japan. Simply never lie about it. I'm sorry, game. But the only thing off the table, Steve, we both know it's Japan. You would never, you'd never lie about Japan. And then I wouldn't say I'd been to Japan, but had I been to, you know... Asia in general. I was just thinking like, because I've got no concept, but had I been, like,

I've been to the Edinburgh Festival for a weekend. I've embellished that. I'm in a play for the whole month. I've got a kernel of truth. The truth has got out of control. I mean, yeah, fully, yeah. Fully. But that, so that had been most of my life.

Up until this moment, oh my God, you were the witch. And that was true at the end of that. I was like, right, that's it. I've got to stop saying, I've been in play. Why are you saying these things? What's it for? And also, you have led an interesting life.

Like, you don't need to make stuff up. Yes. Idiot. Yes. And so that was truly like an end point for me. That's very good. Well, look, we've all delved a lot into our lives. Into our backstories.

Into our lives and our lives. Our fantasies. I like the idea that everyone is saying is like, I mean, they are just two liars. Like, that's not normal. But like, everyone does it. Everyone says they've been in plays and everyone just flies. No, no, no. That's what I'm saying.

Like, I have still got primary school, me being like, that girl is born in a whale. I said I was in the master of the margarita. I told people I was a ghost when I was six. Thank you for joining the podcast. See you and everything. What? When I was six, I told everyone I was a ghost. But in what sense?

They, I got mothers. Oh my God, so sorry. I told people my name was Aurora. From Sleeping Beauty. Her name, and I said, it means the dawn, which is, they called her Aurora. It means the dawn. I would say that. Right, so sorry, you told people you were a ghost?

Yeah, because I made a mistake, told everyone what my date of birth was. And I said 1888 instead of 1988. Right. And then everyone was like, well, that means you'd be like an old woman. So I burst into tears, went home because I thought my parents had lied to me and I was actually an old woman. Right. And then when I came back into school, I really. Oh, actually, I think I'm a ghost.

So then I thought, and then I thought, okay, I think that's probably, and I think, and I had to be, had to have a conversation with my parents where they're like, you need to stop telling people you're a ghost because the teacher has noticed. And also I told them I could only go through certain types of wood. That's why I couldn't pass through walls.

Oh, wow, wow, wow. Yes, that was a, yeah. And that, okay, firstly, how old are you? Like 16? No, no, no, no. I think I was like, oldest eight. Eight does feel old. Yeah, eight.

Very old. Oh, yeah. Too old. But what you've tapped into there, I can only go through certain types of wood. Yeah. Is when questioned on why the ghost can't do things. Absolutely. Once you can make that jump to like, I've made the rules within the lie.

Yeah. Then you're lost. You're on a dangerous path. In fact, I said, I remember the only type of what I knew was because we'd done it in school where they'd like throw it up in the air and like how light it was. So I said, I can only path through balsa. I remember that specifically. Because there's any type of what I knew. Okay.

Oh my God. Look, if you've got any more episodes, I read all the emails. I don't. I do. I just don't reply to lots of them, and I'm very, very sorry. We will deal with them very poorly 18 months later. Yeah. That's what we can offer you here with this podcast.

Nobody Panic Podcasts.com. Also, you've got your classic Twitter at Nobody Panic Pod. You've got your classic Instagram for me at Stevie M. The S's 5. You can message me with the suggestions. And we pray love. What's Tessa? Come and get involved.

There she is. Just Tessa Coats on Twitter. Have a great. Weak. Don't lie. Don't lie, guys. Don't lie where you can help it. Yeah. Wow. You know, being like, oh, I didn't enjoy your birthday party I thought was rubbish. That's not nice. You know? But like, don't, if you can help it, don't. Honesty, always the best policy. All the best things come from place of truth.

Yeah. And even when you think you're making something better, I think, let's just get all the facts out there. Get all the facts out there. How many of those goddamn midsummer murder episodes would have been resolved if someone just hadn't lied up, It's always about, like, there was a deep family secret and we all thought it was best not to reveal it. There we go. Just say it. Reveal you, okay, that's the take home.

Goodbye, everyone. Reveal your big family secret. Hope that's helpful. See you next week. Goodbye.