Nobody Panic - How to Understand 21st Century Sexuality

Episode Date: May 28, 2019

This week Tessa is joined by the amazing Mae Martin to talk about the infinite complexities of 21st century sexuality - the topic of her new book, Can Everyone Please Calm Down. Plus Mae agrees that Jafar is sexy, so that’s a win for everyone. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello everybody and welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Nobody Panic.

It's me, Tessa. As you know, Stevie is away for a bit and so there's going to be a run of a couple of guests hosting this thing with me. Some like maternity cover or holiday cover or like when A.A. Gill used to go away and then they'd write A.A. Gill is away. Right. Neathe reference. Too niche? No, never. He was a food writer and he used to, when he was away, they'd get someone else in and it was cool.

He famously, sorry, I interrupted you. Please. Didn't he famously say he killed a month? just to watch it die. He did some questionable things. Yeah, he was into hunting or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, not the best real friend. Okay, either way, Stevie's away, and I'm joined today by none other than May Martin.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for doing it. Well, you're in, you've come here to my flat, which is, makes it so. There's wine, there's candles, there's crystals, there's a garden in a jar. Yeah, what would you call it? Like a succulent in a jar? It's beautiful. Yeah, but I have bad names about those crystals. Please.

So I have like, I was trying to get into like amethysts and rose quartz and that kind of thing. And then I just read that crystals are like the new blood diamonds. Like all these crystals that we're buying, we don't know where they're coming from. And it's like kids getting them in crystal mines and stuff. Like apparently. So all of these new agey people are going to have to bin their crystals. Oh, God. It's so hard to be good at anything.

I know. And what do I do with the crystals I already have? I think much like old fur. If they're here, they're here. You can't get rid of them in protest, you know? Yeah, who would that help? Who would that help? Or start your own sustainable crystal business.

Absolutely. Find my own crystals. That would be the best. Take a retreat of women away. Yeah. Forage for crystals. Go into some caves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Find your own. Imagine, though, how satisfying. Imagine you're like in a cave, taking shelter from the rain. Of course. And then you see this glint in the back and you go, and it's like a raw ruby or like an emerald. How good would that feel? I've never seen a Ruby in the Wild. Do you think they just are like there?

I don't, yeah, I don't know, actually. Don't they run like veins through rock? Like a vein of Ruby? Or is it just like a little chunk of Ruby? I don't know. We'll know. We'll know when we go on the Crystal Retreat and go in there and find the Ruby. You don't see it so much.

But the 90s, all the films were just about finding treasure. There were a lot of ruby work in the 90s. And now you don't see as many rubies, as rubies. Emeralds, diamonds. I'd be more enchanted by a ruby than an emerald, I think, but I'd go back and forth on that. I understand. I like a clear blue for me. What is that, Sapphire?

Wow. That would be mine of choice. So the podcast today is about crystals, where to find them in the wild. It's not. It's about, it's about sexuality. It's a sort of, it's a loose meander through your new book, The 21st Century Guide to Sexuality. Can everyone please calm down? Is that the full title?

I think it's the guide It's can everyone please calm down A Guide to 21st Century sexuality I think is that what you said? Yeah You know I did it I said it slightly backwards Can everyone please calm down

A guide to 20th century Sexuality 21st century You even make a reference in there That you only recently knew What 21st century was And I was like yes I have been saying the wrong century

For a long time I thought we were 2O You know So I was like We're the 20th Of course Why would we be the 21st? I still

That seems so counterintuitive that the 1400s is the 15th It begins with 1-4, so clearly that should be the 14th century. I just can't wrap my head around. No. No. Anyway, before we do dive into that, what is your adult thing of the week? My adult thing of the week is that one night I put my phone in another room to sleep.

And, you know, everyone tells you to do that. I plugged it in in my living room and I went to bed. Just like cold sweats through the night. It was the worst night ever. And then I did it on a day where I didn't have to get up in the morning. It's my alarm clock. I just was like, what would it feel like to wake up and not have it? But it's like, yeah, I just got up, walked to my living room, got it and went back to bed.

Brought it back to bed with me. What time did you wake up to get it? I probably woke up naturally at about nine. And then you went straight to get the phone. Yeah. Went back into bed. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How did you sleep? Um, I don't know. I probably didn't have as many poisonous rays going into my brain and stuff. Mm. I don't know. Are you going to do it ever again? No. Okay.

Absolutely not. Okay, but well done for trying. Yeah, I feel so passionately about it and I do it every night. It's the last thing I see before I go to sleep and the first thing I see before I wake up. And I'm like, this is so bad, but I can't stop. Yeah. And I'm not even looking at anything. Yeah.

And I've read so many things that are like, when you do that, you begin the day with other people's stuff. Yeah. Rather than your own, you go to bed on their stuff and you wake up just being like, it's like you wake up and someone just like shouting their information. Just inundated in absolute garbage. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yet? And yet?

And yet? Anyway, well done. And someone will be listening to this first thing in the morning. They will have opened their eyes and just, because they can't be alone with their thoughts, click to play. You know, if you are waking up or going to sleep, then well done. And I hope you have a good day or a good night. Yeah. Or a good commute or wherever you are.

We're fucked. We're so fucked. We're so fucked. We're like beyond fat. That we can't be alone. But it's all just, I mean, what's the point of anything? I just read that a dead flamingo. you can still balance it on one leg.

And I was like, what's the point? What's the point of being alive? Even if you're dead, you can balance that. Let me go on one leg. And I found out that the moon is shrinking over time. And because the core is cooling. And so as it cools, it shrinks. And as it shrinks, it causes moon quakes.

So these earthquakes on the moon. So the moon that we look at in the sky is shuddering and shrinking and quaking all the time. How sad. Have we done that? No, that's not our fault. That's just naming it. We're good. We're out. We're in the clear. Yeah, we're safe.

Okay, that wasn't us. Fuck. Yeah. I just... I know. Oh, way. I don't know what to do. Oh, God. Mine is... Well, what would we consider to be viral? If you did a tweet, how many likes to think it has to get before you consider it viral?

That's a good question. I'd be really excited with over 200 likes. I bet you've had way more than that in your life. Rarely. Rarely. Rarely. I did a tweet this weekend that has just crested into the 7,000. No way. And I feel very regretful of it.

It says, guys, I'm at the beach, and I've made this foot penis. I'm absolutely thrilled. And then it's accompanied by this image. Oh my Christ. It's my foot. What part of, what am I looking at? My foot. Yeah.

I see. So that's the sign of your foot. And that is just that, my toe is just there under the sand. Okay. And you've covered it in sand and it looks like a dick. Yeah. So for everyone at home. With the veins and everything. The vein is so gross.

I've, it's... I'm like... You know why it's got that many likes? Because there are so many foot fetishists online. As has become apparent. Yeah. So I was like... I took it. It made me laugh so much.

I didn't really mean to make it. And then I was like... So basically it's me at the beach. I've covered part of my foot in sand. It looks... I have got very vainy feet. It looks exactly like a penis. It looks like a big, hard, vainy penis.

Yeah. It doesn't look... It doesn't look... It looks erect, yeah. It's awful. And then I was like... So I did the first bit and I was like,

maybe I can make the ankle and my heel open to the balls, which I then did. Yeah. And then I tweeted it thinking, that'll be funny and like, damn people

will think that's funny. And then 7,000 likes later, I was like, oh no, I'm in deep. And there are a lot of strangers with a lot of messages about feet and penises. Really?

And nothing, touch word, totally weird, so far. You're going to be on Wiki feet. I'm so nervous, yeah. But then I'm also like, if that's what you need to have it.

Yeah. Have it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wish I was something, I wish I'd done some like, I wish this wasn't my viral, my semi-viral moment. Yeah.

I wish I'd done some, like, great political piece, like some great takedown. But no, it's this foot penis. Well, now this is what you have to court. You have to court, this particular audience, this foot audience.

I know. I had a foot woman contact me. And she was like, I'd like to see your feet, please, on Instagram. And I always engaged when I probably shouldn't, but I was like,

that's okay, rather not get them out at the moment. And then she said, I'm coming to see your show at Sohith. This is what made me think. And she was like, I'll be looking at your feet, please wear no socks.

So I was allowed to wear shoes, but she didn't want me to wear any socks. It was going to be this secret thing between us, I think, in her mind. But I didn't do it, but... I wore the socks in protest. I definitely wore socks, but it's pretty harmless. And I kind of get it.

I think it's about that they're sort of secret. Like you don't get to see people's feet a lot. So I think it's about... Do you think the don't wear socks thing is like, she gets to go to the show and she's like, oh, she's not wearing the socks. This is the message between the two of us. It's only about the feet. And it's sort of transgressive to see someone's feet.

It's like a vulnerability there or something. I don't know. I mean, I'm talking like I'm also a footperson, but... Well, if you are, no king shaming here. We'd love to hear more about it, please do let us know. My price is £800. Really? Yeah, I've made a price, it's that.

You're bare feet for $800. One picture. I think my price is lower, you know. I think it'd be like $500, yeah. You can get us both for $2,000. It's baffling. You should pay separately. Seamlessly segueing from foot to the broad range of sexuality.

What inspired you, or what was the motivation to want to write this book. Why this book? Why now? Why did it need to come out of you? Well, I was approached by a publisher who said, would you like to write the book that you wish you had when you were a teenager? Something like, yeah, it would have been helpful for you when you're about 14. So I've done that. You've done an amazing job. It's really good. I'm really self-conscious about it and insecure about it. Part of me helps that people just buy it and Instagram the cover and don't read it because it's quite revealing, A, and then also I'm embarrassed about my grammar and things like that.

Oh, no. Well, genuinely that. But, yeah, thanks. And actually, I was feeling kind of down on it, and then I went to this book festival and read from it to about a thousand school kids. And then that made me feel like it was worthwhile because they were amazing kids. And, yeah, the premise of the book is, I guess I feel like these days, a lot of these issues are so highly politicized and talking about gender and sexuality is so fraught and it's often

used politically in debates and stuff and I think we lose sight of the fact that it's meant to be fun and we're talking about love and it's natural and especially for young people I think it can be really stressful to you fall in love or you have a crush on someone and right away you have to you have to worry about like what you're going to label yourself and you start worrying about what am I instead of who am I and it takes the fun out of it so it's it's funny and like light and it's so it's really funny and it's really great and I'm so glad that you feel better about it because last week you said to me like oh it's not really good and weirdly I took that at just like total face value sort of I just imagine like weirdly I was like oh okay well I guess maybe she got a ghost

writer in like Zoella or something she's like not particularly proud of this book and then I saw you at the hay festival with your that literally it seemed like thousands of young people had come like just wide-eyed to and who wanted to hear so passionately wanted to hear what you had to say and then having now read it i'm like oh this is such a good book oh thanks it's and don't think your grammar is but you write exactly as you talk and it just feels like spending time with you but on the page it's very um colloquial and conversational but they um those young people that generation is unreal and i just kept thinking yeah how different their school experiences from mine like i was because i was doing this talk and then at the end there was a q-and-a so

So there's like, yeah, a thousand kids, all between the ages of like 13 and, I don't know, 18. And they're standing up in front of a thousand other kids and being like, yeah, I'm bisexual and, you know, I'm having a hard time at home. But my, and people are cheering and you've got, I'm trans kids. And the most amazing thing was like groups of jocks, like straight dudes coming up to me afterwards and be like, yeah, I'm straight, but I want to be a better ally for my gay friends. Oh my God. Yeah, how can I be a better ally for my friend? It was like, I mean, you're doing it. That's insane.

That's so cool. And, you know, that stat that like 40% of kids under 25 are not identifying as gay or straight, like that I think it's really changing. I hope. I think there's a lot of progress being made. And there's a trend towards moving away from labels and stuff, which I think is exciting. It's such a massive topic to even begin opening. As soon as you do with anybody, everyone's like, I've got so many things I want to say about it. But I think we go through this insane phase when you're a tiny kid where you want to,

you take your clothes up all the time and you run about naked and everyone's your friend and you have no concept of who is and is not allowed like in your group and what kind of person you have to be and then you are made to go to school where all of that confidence is just like stripped away from you until there's nothing of you left and then you spend your whole 20s rebuilding it to the place you were when you were four and you're like what a waste why did we do that bit in the middle and the more like people you know now are like who are at a stage where they like finally ready to be like comfortable with themselves and to talk about, you know, past experiences. The amount of people who are like, oh, I kissed at boys who were like, oh, I kissed a boy

at school. And I spent a year every night just thinking, oh, my God, I must be gay. And like, trying to really get into gay porn and not enjoying it. And then being like, and girls who are like, I was in love with, you know, Natalie Portman in Star Wars. So I was like, well, I guess this is it now. Like, how will I come out to my parents? And this, like, insane, like, this insane stress around it.

We all do go through, not everyone, but. a huge percentage of people goes through a distinctly bisexual phase before puberty. Like you're just like pretty non-description. Yeah, and everybody has weird experiences and stuff. Not weird, but like, you know, diverse and varied experiences. And then, yeah, you're right. You get everything changes when you go to school and you get stressed about what it means. And people come up to me after shows all the time, like grown men.

And when their girlfriends are in the bathroom, they're like whispering to me in total panic being like, I gave a blowjob at university. And I love my girlfriend. What does this mean? First of all, everyone's so stressed about the idea that bisexuality might exist. Like, everyone's like, am I gay, am I gay? And it's like, because they're like, because I have, you know what I mean? People don't even seem to entertain the idea that they might be by.

And then also, yeah, just the level of stress around labels. It's crazy. Where do you think it comes from? And how do you feel being this generation's guru on the subject and the only answer to our questions? Wait, which generation? Because I don't know enough to be the younger, generations, they're like teaching me and they know terms that I don't know and they're way ahead of me. Yeah, I, where did, where the urge. It was too many questions. How do you feel with people

coming up to you like, is it a role that you enjoy the like people coming up to you with these questions or is it a like, I don't know, panic, you know? Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah, I, I like to talk about it because I care about it and well, it's tricky. So, you know, when sometimes when people want to unleash all of their questions at me and stuff, they forget that it's my life or just sort of part of who I am. So it's a bit like unleashing all your questions about race on someone who's not white, you know what I mean? Which, and so I want to answer the questions and discuss it and stuff, but depending on the questions, sometimes if it's like, but in general, I like it. Okay. Yeah, I like it a lot. Yeah. But I can understand that that you like, you don't,

you're like, there's more to me than being, you know. Yeah, the gatekeeper. The gatekeeper of all and I'm thrilled that you're asking the question, but... And also, I don't know. Like, it's the most mysterious thing in the world. Yeah. But no, mostly everyone I know is, you know, so on point and open-minded. Yeah. The labeling thing is interesting because I always worry that...

Or I sometimes get, like, negative flag from, like, the older gay community who are, like, we fought really hard to have these labels and to proudly say them and really identify with them and stuff and the culture around it. So I never want to feel like I'm being dismissive of that, because I think it's... It can be useful, and we need these terms to communicate ideas and fight for rights that we still don't have. And it's all still so tenuous, the progress. So it sometimes feels a bit aspirational to be like, we're going to all be fluid and use labels and stuff. But I think it's a good aspiration to have.

That's so interesting. It hadn't really occurred to me, given that this generation is so much about people, not parts. Like, I can love whoever I want and I don't have to identify. And it hadn't really occurred to me that the generation that went through, like, Stonewall and all of these huge things fighting for their rights. wanted it like it was a huge thing of pride so now for that to be taken away to be like oh no we don't actually look grandpa we actually don't use then and you're like fuck you you've no idea like what my generation went through totally and i think what i reject is like being labeled by someone else like without my consent that's what sucks but i guess yeah of course you have to totally respect

people's wish to proudly identify as a certain label because there's like a great strength in that and like invisibility and being vocal about those things but i personally don't i don't i identify with any label, so I'm happy to be the kind of the champion of that idea, no labels. But yeah, it is so interesting and complicated, because especially I've dated a lot of people who've never dated girls before. And sometimes I feel like that sexual fluidity thing, that can sometimes be an easy route with internalized homophobia and stuff, to be like, well, I'm not part of that community.

I'm just like, I'm me, which is true. Like, I'm me. I just, you know, fell in love with someone, which is great. But you know what I mean? sometimes like, I'm like, why are you so adamant that you're not part of that community? People you've been with who have never been with a girl before who are saying, this is happening, but I'm definitely not gay. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't identify with like LGBT.

Right. People are like, go to a gay night or go to pride or those types of things where I'm like, maybe you have some like shame attached to it. For sure. Yeah. I think the shame thing is something that we, you know, because it's so in the news everywhere about like this new thing about kids shouldn't be taught about it in schools, which my feelings about sexuality come from a deep place of extreme rage

from a historical and biological perspective that are like if your idea of you know we shouldn't we shouldn't sexualize the children we shouldn't talk about anything that's not a non-traditional relationship which is what the law in Russia was like five years ago their wording was a non-traditional relationship you're like what exactly do you think the word traditional means like with this history that's like got every different type of sexuality under the sun and like multi-husbands multi-women, all of this stuff.

Multi-gender. Multi-gender, like, different cultures that have got all these different names and titles. And like, where is this insane, like, one man, one woman, one kid, white picket fence? It's pretty recent, I think. Yeah, it's insane. So it suggests, like, oh, that's what humans have always, like, that's the natural way of things. Like, that's insane. Yeah.

And it suggests that you've not read or bothered to understand anything. Where is this, like, shame come from? It must be so deep in a way that people are just almost can't even look that far inside themselves. Yeah. like where has this idea come from? And it's, people are obsessed with, with the sex part of it. Like, they're like, oh, that means we're teaching them about anal sex. Yeah, you're like, well, yeah.

Where have you got that part from? Yeah, it's just about love, isn't it? It's crazy because there's definitely gay kids in those classes. Yeah, like the rat, the rat teacher recently got married on, um. Oh, yeah, the rat teacher. What is this thing? Their art works? No, no.

No, I think he's a rat, but what is, is it a show called Arthur? Arthur, it's a cartoon about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's called Arthur, right? Yeah, he's a big mouse. Gay rat wedding, yeah, and they had a gay rat wedding. And everyone's, like, horrified.

But you're like, yeah, the rats aren't, like, getting down in the church, in the cartoon and then, like, having sex with each other. Yeah, like, everybody's like, yeah, not everything's like, like, a gimp mask coming out. It's not like, that's not it. You're sharing a wedding, like, kids see weddings as, like, such a normal part of their storytelling, you know, so you don't see, like, in the Disney movies, there isn't, like, filthy sex in the stuff. It's just the wedding part and the kissing part.

So, why should it make a difference? who's doing that and why should we have this insane idea they're like, anal sex for the five-year-olds you're like, that's not what anybody is saying. But it is definitely changing and getting better. But there's so little representation still. And so many of the stories that we hear still

are so tied up with like coming out or like, I mean in TV and movies and stuff like a lot of those, although that movie books are coming out and that seems like, I think we just need lots of characters who are like incidentally gay or queer or whatever and their whole life isn't about. That's what in the book I talk about, like, I really thought growing up that it was just Oscar Wilde and Ellen DeGeneres. And I modeled myself after both of those people.

Like, they don't teach the, you know, Da Vinci and Isaac Newton and all these, and Alexander the Great and people that shaped our world were not necessarily straight. And that would be so empowering to learn as a young person. Absolutely. And it would also make you understand that like, oh, here's Isaac Newton who could do all these amazing cool things. and the fact that he also loved, like, a bunch of different people is sort of totally, is a cool part of his personality, but it's not the main thing about him. Yeah, totally. Like, much the same way as we're like history and then like women's history. Yeah, exactly.

And like, history and like black history. It's like, how can't just be like some cool stuff? And their gender and their sex and their sexuality was like a side part of that. Yeah, totally. And get rid of this idea of being growing up and being like, I hope this society tolerates me. And like tolerance. I hate that word. it's like, you built this society.

Like, you know what I mean? You're, like, as much a part of it, outside of it. Yeah. It's very moving, all these kids, I don't know, they're cool. They're all really cool. And they all call me, they all, um, sir, my lord. They call me, they use neutral gender pronouns with me automatically.

Even though I say, I'm a girl, like I would say she about myself, they just are very respectful because they're not sure. So they say they, we're really naturally. And I feel like older people are constant. So much hope for the young. Totally. They're going to do it. Anyone over the age of like 35, I feel like it's so stressed about the idea of a neutral pronoun.

It's like, but how do I do it? And to them, it's so easy. I love it. It's so impressive. I mean, it really started me in your book is about how you felt being made to learn algebra as a kid and just being like, no, no, no, too much too confusing, not for me, how the older generation feel about it. And it isn't so much like, oh, it's, oh, no, it's more like, I can't, I can't get my head around it. Like, you know, they, am I saying this? Is it Q?

is it plus? I don't know what to do now. And so my only option, much like a lot of us, I imagine, learned to make jokes to get out of having to answer the questions in maths, where we didn't know the answer. And you learned that if you could laugh your way out of it, you didn't have to reveal that you couldn't do this thing. And so therefore you fell back on this like, oh, algebra is stupid, you know,

in the same way that we see this older generation being like, oh, I don't even get it. What are they? A man, a woman, pick one. Yeah. You know, there was such an insightful way of looking at it that it was coming from a place of confusion and fear. I really empathize.

Like, I, yeah, that algebra. I remember, like, just getting my head around long division and then introducing algebra, not only was I confused, but I felt like rage. Like, I was like, how, this is, this doesn't make any sense. And, yeah, I think I said in the book, like, I would have protested against it. Like, I would have, like, really taken to the streets

from being, like, this is witchcraft. Yeah. but then yeah i think so so many people are afraid of asking questions now as well and and afraid of being labeled a bigot if they ask questions but then again people say that a lot they're like you can't ask anything anymore and it's like well you absolutely can ask anything you want but like how are you phrasing it are you are you really being aggressive or you know do you want to hear the answer like yeah yeah yeah and that's the thing is without you it was probably we did all oh we didn't want to hear the answer we didn't care but like we didn't get I'm a

It was unnecessary. But like it is a thing of like, yeah, I do. I do wish I knew. I wish I was on the side that understood it. Yeah. Rather than out here. And then it's this exhausting thing of like, oh, we got to educate everyone. Yeah.

And be nice to all these people. Yeah, but we do because everything's changing so fast. And we're experiencing this seismic shift with like so many massive issues. And if we don't want that like divide to get deeper, we have to annoyingly spend a lot of time explaining, I think. And having these. annoying conversations. Is that the only route do you think that we have to, you have to sit down with everybody you know and be like,

maybe. Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of, I don't know, or just put it out in the world. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Was there anything else that these kids were asking you that you really... That I found difficult.

Yeah. Yeah, I get... Or that, like, struck you as a question. Oh, what I find really difficult is when people say, I want to come out to my parents, but they're really homophobic and what should I do? because I don't know their situation. I don't know how homophobic their parents are. And I'm so scared to be like,

and I feel like what they want me to say is like, just do it, just rip it off like a band-aid, come out. But then I'm like, what if I tell them that? And they do and they get kicked out or it's horrific or it's like really traumatizing. So that feels like a lot of responsibility. And I'm always like, I think speak to the counselor first. I mean, I had an angry older woman shouting at me at this book festival. festival it was the first question of that so I did the youth one and then I did an adult one and just the difference oh that's so nice that you're so interesting is that a choice that you made that you said I want only kids at this one no they it was sort of organized oh yeah one that's such a nice idea totally and it was just kids and that was amazing and then in the evening was for older people and that was way harder the first question was this really angry woman talking about um if trans people are allowed in toilets we're all going to get killed basically she was so you could hear the fear in her

voice. She was being like, but we know that men are violent towards women and we're going to let them in the toilets. And it's, it's hard to get into a real back and forth because I can, it reminds me a bit of the like, well, if we let too many immigrants in, they're going to take our jobs. Because it's like, I understand where you're getting that thought, but it's just demonstrably untrue. So I'm always like about the facts and the stats. And I'm like, she will show me the, show me that happening. And, you know, trans people have been using toilets forever and trans, trans, women and the stats also show that trans women are the most at risk and they're the ones getting like but it's just it was a really tense it was very tense and I'm just trying to be I don't know it's hard

because you can see where that idea comes from totally especially um you know women who've fought so hard for so many things to them like oh now now this space that is was a space like a sacred space but like now everybody's allowed in this space and to take that immediate assumption of like that's a man in a dress rather than like that is a woman who feels like she was born into the wrong body and has gone through this huge undertaking to now live actively externally as a woman rather than just somebody who's just thought about it that afternoon yeah like and so conflating men with trans women yeah so it's it's it's really hard which is something you can totally understand if the idea of being trans if the idea of you know people being like your man or a woman

what's the problem it's such an easy thing today if you personally like the body that you're in. Yeah. And if you don't, you can't even comprehend what that would feel like. Yeah. It's so hard. And also, I'm not an expert. No, exactly.

And so trying to wait. And I guess I knew this would happen in writing the book that I'd be brought into these debates and obviously should talk about them. But it's really scary because I'm just a comedian. Yeah. Crucially. Yeah. And that's the whole point in the book, too, is that it's just quite light and funny, I hope.

and like, yeah, so it's a bit stressful that in promoting it, it's like these big, although I've said no to a few like panel discussions where I can tell that there's antagonistic people that are going to be on. Because I'm just not, I'm just not equipped with all those stats. And you know that feeling, you know, like when people start arguing about feminism or whatever and you're like, I don't have the stats that I need and I know that they're out there but I don't have them on the tongue. I feel like every panel show should come with a like dictionary corner where somebody is just

like on the stats. So A, people can't just make up any old shit and say like, I heard this and just like announce it as facts. And then it's like, so I'll be like, that's not true. And also when you're like, could we just get the, could we get the stats up, please, from the fact corner? And then they would say like this many people or this is the thing or this happened in 2006. That would be so good. Right? I think everybody, otherwise it's just people just shouting nonsense rhetoric into the abyss.

Yeah. That's why it was good with this book. I had a fact checker. And that was nice. Because I sort of wrote what I thought and then had a lot of people. came back with a list of like, oh, you've made that up. Yeah. Not true.

Yeah. Was there anything that amazed you or anything that you, a fact that you really, that blew your socks off? There's loads of good stuff. There's loads of stuff that I always thought anecdotally to be true, like that people who are vocally homophobic are often quite gay. But then that's supported by actual science. It did turn out to be true.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, they did a study of a bunch of men and the more vocally homophobic they were, the more aroused they were by gay porn. Like, it's just, I love stuff like that. And then I guess that's partly the message of the book is that it's so nuanced and it's not, it's not black. It's not black and white. And a fact that blew my mind was them looking up once into this, like, the history of the gay gene, which I'm doing an inverted comment for the listeners.

Which I want to say is like, X362 or something. And they announced it and like, and they were like, we found this gay gene. And everyone was like, hooray. And. Wait, did this happen? Oh yeah, this is, so truth. I want to say, it was like, suggested in the 70s when, like, genetics was just sort of coming to the fore

and people were just, like, given things a go and, like, there's a lot of monkeys involved. People were microdosing a lot of LSD. Yeah, people having a lot of big ideas. Yeah, they're like, we can cure everything. We can cure everything. And so they were thrilled with this idea of, like, what if there's a gay gene?

Yeah. And then somebody decided they'd found it and sequenced it and it had, like, a number. And then this is how recent it is, like, 1993, the Daily Mail's article about it used the headline abortion hope for mothers as gay gene is found. Oh my God. That's so recent and so mind-blowing that that's like, isn't, that's a true fact corner.

That one's been verified. Go look it up. But then it turns out that the guy who studied this gay gene and announced there was a gay gene and published it everywhere, it turned out he just like botched, he just made, basically made the whole thing up. And then a few years later, himself came out as gay and was like, I was so desperate to prove that this was a genetic thing and to have this like, oh, nobody's a, Like, that he just made everything up.

And we still, you know, things that are actually such a complex, like, grey subject. And then we just use it as like black and white. And then we throw these facts around and we're like... Yeah. When something like that comes into the public conversation as a fact and it's not true, it takes so long to... Yeah, like, you know, men and women's brains are so different. Something like that, that everyone just accepts this true.

And for a decade, scientists have been like, no, it's actually not. Please, stop that. It's like if your finger is big, you're like, if your ring finger is bigger than your other one, you've got two messed testosterone. Yeah. Is that not true? I don't think so. Because I look, my, yeah, my ring finger is like, way long. Yeah, so you're just like, that's a fact about me.

Yeah, I genuinely always was like, yeah, fair enough. That's really funny. Yeah, the gauging thing's so interesting. And I get that it, I think it's really comforting to people to have the born-this-way idea, that it's genetic and comforting on both sides. and it's been adopted as a slogan for so many gay charities even and stuff, but it's just not that simple. And it's just not true that it's that people are born gay. It's like a complex combination of nature and nurture.

And we don't know. And who cares? It's like... Crucially, who cares? Yeah, why? You know? Only in the last like 50 years or so the gay has been a term that you could have been born gay. So what if it didn't exist before?

Totally. I think the idea that cultural factors could play a... role in sexuality is really scary to people. Because it's like, yeah, but we know that that's true. They play a dominant role. Yeah. Because you look at cultures that are predominantly bisexual, just because that's like predominantly the culture.

Like ancient Rome or like, it's interesting. It is that. It's like, we just all want to get to a place where you're like, you don't have to say, you know, a female doctor or like a female comedian or, you know, black presenter or, you know, a gay judge. You're like, just a judge. Like, just a doctor's a person.

so we don't have to be preceded by this title. Totally. And then it's like lose, lose for me, because then online people are like, well, just shut up about it or why can't gay people just stop talking about being gay? And it's like, well, first of all, I'm making a living. Second of all, like, yeah, I'm getting asked about it all the time still. So that's why I'm writing about it and talking about it. And it's like, you know, if you didn't have the same rights as everyone, you'd talk about it too.

Yeah. I think it's so, yeah. For you're like under threat of violence all the time. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's such an, like, I think everybody sort of has a book they'd like to give their 14-year-old self. And I bet everybody would at some point in that book talk about sex in some way. Or like, here are some things you need to know. Here's some stuff that is going to be confusing for years because no one's going to tell you properly

because there's this insane shame culture wrapped up in everything and everyone's nuts. Everyone's insane. And also, what's frustrating is like, yeah, it's a book about sexuality full stop, not just LGBT. It's like everyone has a sexuality, and people forget that. They're like, well, if you're straight, you're normal. And if you're queer, then you have a sexuality. But we all have these weird and complex things that we're attracted to. And it changes over the time.

We all, like, wank to weird shit and have weird dreams. And no one's attracted to an entire gender. Everyone's attracted to, like, specific types of people. Like, it's all so interesting. Yeah. So it's such a universal and human thing, not a niche issue. No, it's so massive. And, like, if you want to be able to do it.

your weird foot shit. Do it. Then this is your fight too, you know. Yeah. Do your weird foot shit. Yeah. I think the moment that like everybody fell in love with the fox from Robin Hood. Exactly.

We're all like, oh, this thing is a spectrum. Like, I'm deeply in love. With this fit fox. And you can't really understand. I think it was that he rolled his sleeves up in a cool way. Yeah. I fancied Jafar. Just like, you know, power dynamics are fit.

Right? Yeah, yeah. He's like an iconic misogynist. And he was like, yes. Yeah. chain me up jup exactly coming in your weird hourcloth

yes hypnotize me with your snake stick yes I will do what you are yeah I always that bit where it goes red and there's like and she's pretending to fancy him like that feels almost like a weird fanfic

part of yeah it's like this can't be in the actual film yeah but it's so weird that that part exists in her sort of like princess layer slave outfit and it's so weird and sort of as a kid you like wanted

to be like, yeah, like, keep going. Like, do it. Exactly, let's see where this goes. Like, we want to see it. He becomes that giant snake, too. It's phallic. We're like, yes, please. I sort of felt that way about Ursula, the Sea Witch and Ariel, too.

I was like, Ursula wants to fuck Ariel. It's palpable. Why doesn't she just do it? Yeah. She's got all those tentacles, like, yeah. Oh, no. Tenticle porn is such a massive thing. It was introduced to me at university, and I was like,

no, you've made that up. And then they showed me, and I was like, oh boy every porn exists yeah if you can name a noun you can put the word porn after it yeah and it's out there

yeah my friend showed me Pokemon porn I'll never get it out of my mind but it's live action it's like someone painted entirely yellow like Pikachu no Jesse and James yeah

it's really amateurish but yeah yeah that's part of the magic I've got so much time for amateur porn where everyone looks like they're having a wonderful time yeah totally like the second

and that's the thing I think of like if more people always talk about like women making porn but like I think the main thing that women would bring to it is like is everyone having a nice time is everyone actually coming is everyone actually coming like that's what I'm not morally against porn at all but you can just tell that they're not coming so then I'm not

into it how good would it be if men were like comfortable using vibrators and like yeah yeah yeah and it was all this just like everybody's cool to be like hey what are you actually into it's not this like big performance piece it's not this like oh I'm here sort of to get off on how big guy I am you're like well let's let's let's let's explore your extremely fragile masculinity. And maybe you can cry and I'll hug you and that's porn. Like, is that what you'd like? I remember I was in rehab.

Okay. And I was, so maybe I was like 17, I think. And they had this health class and this woman came in and it was me and a bunch of dudes. And it was a rehab day program. And she said, today we're going to learn about the female anatomy. And I was like, I got this because I've been like sleeping with girls. And I am a girl. I don't know if you know that.

And so she was like, let's just start. Let's all draw a vagina. So I was like, this is where everyone's, I was like, guys, this is so easy. And I drew one. And then the woman was like, that's not it. Like, I don't know what, you've drawn it wrong. I was like, what? What did you draw on?

I guess I just didn't. Like a hat. Like I drew a hat. No, I'd like left out stuff. And she was like, it was just so crazy to me that, yeah, I've been sleeping with girls. And I am a girl and I still didn't know what it looked like. That's how deeply, like. uninformed and ashamed.

You don't know what any of the parts are called. Like, you have no concept. Like, sometimes boys will be like, partners of mine who in the past have been like, where do you weave from? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I'm not 100% sure either. And we've got this like whole thing and go,

you know, and only recently we've understood that like the clitoris is not this like one P size button that everyone's like, where is it? You're like, it's there, you moron. Like, it's literally there on everyone. It's not a, it's not hard to find. But not only is it, that's just the tip of the iceberg bit that it's this massive thing that's like, you know, inches long.

Yeah. And really that a penis is just the external version and a clitoris is the internal version. And it's not just like men have got all this stuff and women haven't got anything. It's like, women have got it all. You just can't see it. And it doesn't have to be this like, oh, well, it's too, literally like algebra. Oh, it's too hard. So forget it.

I don't know anything. Oh, women is so tricky. It's like, hello, I'd like to learn. I'm open to being vulnerable and getting it wrong. Totally. I've had like straight women say to me, I'd, yeah, I want to sleep with women, but they're so. complicated and I don't think I could make a girl come and stuff. I'm like, why have you internalized this myth? As if you can't make yourself come, it's like what I, you know what I mean?

Orgasms, like, certainly when we were teenagers, like every book, every thing of Cosmo was like how to come every time and like how to have like multiple orgasms. Is it a myth? You're like, what? Yeah. If you keep giving us this like ethereal like the female body, where is it? The treasure, like the ruby. It's like, of course we'll get this idea that like it's hard to do, but it should just be like, of course everyone can come every time. That's not like a once a year activity. Yeah. If you get the book out and commit for four hours, it's like, that's, it's so easy.

It's like, that I think is one of the big, that would maybe be in my 14 year old book. It's like, one, you still won't know what a four skin is many years later. Yeah. And you've seen plenty and you still can't fully grasp it, so don't worry about it. And two, orgasm is not this, like, mythical challenge. It's so easy and it should not be a scary thing that you think. Totally. Did your parents talk to you about?

No, they were hopeless. Oh, really? Yeah. They were really hopeless. That sucks. I think they... What was it fine? Like, did you get it elsewhere?

It was fine. I mean, I certainly... It was, I mean, I've come out the woods, but like, I was absolutely fine. But I definitely did not understand anything. Yeah. But also, like, nobody wanted to kiss me in high school. Yeah. It's not like I was fending off it going badly.

you know, I just didn't know in the corner for many years. Nobody ever sat me down and explained anything. Yeah, I was super lucky that my mom was really unembarrassed about, like, drew diagrams, and I remember... But you still couldn't do the diagram. I still didn't do the diagram, yeah. But then I remember being about eight or something, or no, eight's too young. Maybe I was 10, and we were all out for dinner, and my mom was like,

mate, you masturbate, right? Should we talk about that? Age 10? Yeah, she was like, we haven't had that conversation. yet and I never had. And then obviously that night I did. And then from then on every day, forever. Oh my God, that's amazing.

I'm not even going to tell you how old I was. So old. Really? Yeah. Like, so old. And so then me being like, oh, it was fine. I made it out of the woods. Like, I clearly did not.

Like, I... You must have been so frustrated because you must have been having the feelings from watching, like, weird TV and stuff. Yeah. But you just, it never went into that. I think that, like, internalized shame thing is such a massive thing that you, I sort of was like, oh, it's... Yeah.

But also I don't think the feeling It wasn't like I was like Oh I desperately want to and I'm I mustn't I actually just like didn't Didn't get there yeah Didn't I didn't know I don't know I guess It's not like I was sort of

Or maybe I was this deeply frustrated teenager Yeah Maybe I just wrote a lot of poetry or something And I think it's not that I didn't I think I guess it's like didn't know That I had this energy that needed to go somewhere Yeah yeah I guess it's that

But oh my God I was late to the party Really? Yeah I sort of wish I'd been later to the party in a way Yeah, we're two ends of the spectrum Yeah, we are, yeah And it's certainly early doors It's got to be a happy medium

Yeah, for sure But yeah, we both turn out, okay? Yeah, I think so. We made it out. Yeah, we're all right. Everyone's all right in the end. Yeah, mostly. I'm so aware

I've taken up so much a good time. No, I've got nothing to do, are you kidding? I'm so glad you're here. Oh, I've been watching this show The OA, have you heard of this? Oh, where they can do... They read minds?

They can interdimensionally travel. Of course they do. Yeah. So it's on Netflix. And I'm obsessed, but I'm weirdly the only person I know that watches it. No one I know is into it. But it's, yeah, when you have like a near-death experience, you travel to another dimension.

It's so good. Oh, fun. I think it's good. But I don't have anyone else confirming that it's good. I think, listen, take ownership of your likes. Yeah. If you like it, you like it. I like it.

Great, good for you. My only understanding of the OA was that my housemate, every time I'd come home, they'd be like, I'm watching it again. I'd be like, well, you don't like it, so stop. That's exactly my relationship with it. Oh, well, don't watch it then. Do I need to tell you to stop it? I'm just weirdly embarrassed, I think, because the lead woman in it, her mouth is always open slightly.

It's slightly, or, like, parted always, and she's, like, breathing heavily, and she's really annoying, and she wrote it as well, so I sort of hate that I love it because she's quite weird. But what can I say? I love her, too, deep down, it's, like, just a love-hate thing. Look, take ownership of your loves? Yeah. Love that. woman. Yeah, I love her and Ursula the Sea Witch. Oh, God. Yeah. I just love all the villains. I always wanted them to do well. They're always the campest ones too. Right, they're so fun and camp and great.

Like, you just wanted to hang out in their lair. Like I remember once, and maybe one of the Shrecks or something, we, like a third Shrek, we briefly visit a pub that's just got all the villains in it. No way. Yeah. And one of them's playing like Priscilla Queen of the Desert on the piano and like, they're all there like Carrella Deville and I'm just like, pause the film, let's stay here for like ever. Like, let's just explore that for ages. I mean, in my mind, Jafar is like doing shots at the bar and like everyone's just talking about their shit. But you're like, yeah, obviously the villains are the best.

Totally. Ursula's, her like, the sketch work for Ursula is really fun if you ever go and look it up. It's all of them. Based on a drag queen. Yeah, yeah. She's just so amazing and you're like, what a fantastic, she moves. And I mean, now it'll just become a fan piece for Ursula. Yeah.

She just moves in this, like, unbelievable. sexy way while also being an octopod, you know. Tell me about it. Right, right, I will. Do you tell us about just, we've got to come to the end. I don't want to take up all your evening.

And we've got to watch the O.A. next. Yeah. By the way, it's so nice, because I feel like we always see each other at parties and stuff. We never get to sit down and have like a proper chat. It's because you never have any enough time to be like, can we talk about all the things? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're always like,

everyone's doing a bit and people are really. Yeah. No, you have, you're fantastic. stand-up special, which is called Has a title? Yeah, it's called dope, but it's on... Of course it is. But it's not the whole of dope.

No, it's half of that show that you might... Yeah, as you do it. Thanks. Yeah, it's half of that, yeah. Which is a fantastic show. But it's under Comedians of the World on Netflix. And if you're a Bet, Bet, Midler,

check it out, but also it's a really great show. I talk a lot about Bat Midler, and then I don't know if she's seen it, but people keep tweeting it at her, and if she has seen it, she doesn't like it, she hasn't engaged at all. To be fair, I describe in detail her going down on me.

If I were her, I'd be, I would be pretty horrified, yeah. If I was her, I think I would think it was very funny, but I would not know the coolest way to respond. I might be like, I need to keep my distance here. Yeah, yeah. For me, I'm like, there's nothing, there's no right way for me to come out here. Yeah. Like, to you.

Yeah. She can't just at you be, like, cool, special. She's got to make some kind of joke about the thing. And if she does, she's, her only route there is to be like, do you want to go down on me after I sing a song? You've not given her an open goal there. Yeah, and to be honest, I kind of hope I never meet her because she's... I think that's important.

She's something else in my mind, you know. She represents so many things. And I did see her live in New York. Yeah. And how was it? Unreal. Yeah. It was in Hello Dolly.

She's in her 70s. She absolutely smashed it and got a standing ovation almost every time she spoke. Very disruptive. It's a narrative story. Like, there's people trying to do a play. And it was like... She's just coming around and be like, oh, hello, darling. And everyone's like, woo-hoo!

Yeah, I bet it's really hard work. Yeah, keep watching, go and see her, but I think it's important that you don't meet her. Yeah, I think so, yeah. I think she has something very different in your mind. But you have that on Netflix, and then coming out in the spring, in the summer, in the autumn and the winter.

September. In September. Yeah. This will be autumn, I guess. Soon, isn't it? Real soon is your sitcom for Netflix, which is called... Actually, it doesn't have a title at the moment. Oh, nice.

I need help. The working titles, May and George. but I need help I keep coming up with titles and then something will come out with that title. Titles are hard. Why?

What came out recently? It was really called us and then that Jordan Peel movie came out and then, yeah, it's gone through lots of titles. What about Georgian May? George and May is possible, yeah. Is there anything else that you've been...

Just that sitcom, man. I really hope people like it. I'm really scared about it. No, no, is there any other titles? Oh, any other titles? Yeah, okay, I love this Elliot Smith song called Say Yes. I think it's really romantic

and a beautiful song, so I really wanted to call it to say yes, but everyone's like, well, that means nothing. They're right. Yeah, yeah, it's not good. May and George is,

or George and George is a lovely title. And I think... I didn't pick that. That was picked for me as a working title, but you don't mind it? I think it's so nice because in the vein of like Harold and Maud or like when Harry met Sally, it's like, it's a really classic romantic story.

And I think the use... I think George is such a, Will it be a spoiler if I say that George is not a boy? No, I'm sure people will assume, yeah. So the fact that George, you've given this, like, very sweet old man name, George, you know, which could easily be like, you know, a gardener, you know, to... May and George sounds like, to a lovely old couple in the 70s who solved crime, like low-grade crime. So for it to be...

And then it's so not that, but it is, in its own way, like, it has a lot of heart and a lot of... It's growing up, I mean, now that you... Yeah, you're selling it to me. Yeah, yeah. But I think Us is also a nice title, but again, like, it doesn't say much. It doesn't say much, whereas, like, Manjoge is like, that's what it is, and that's what it's about, and it's a really sweet, lovely story. And also, I think, I always, when I think about titles, try to think of people going, have you seen May and George? And, like...

Do you like that? Yeah. Does that sound good to you? Yeah, definitely getting excited about it. And then people being like, oh, I'm really loving this show called May and George at the moment. It's on Netflix. It's not what you think it's going to be about. It's really, yeah.

Cool. Right? I'm really excited. Yeah. So that's coming out in September. Yeah, thank you so, so much for doing this. Thanks for talking to me. I don't know what I've said.

You said such perfect things. Do you get scared about that at the end? You're like, I don't know what I said. Oh, no. Okay, good. I was in and out because I was, yeah. Can you out a laugh track? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll stick that in. Just a, it's Bette Midler, just laughing and clapping from the background. Your live shows on Netflix, your sitcoms on Netflix. Your book is out now. May Martin's romp through her sexual ideas. Pretty much, yeah, yeah. Everybody, can everybody just calm down?

It's really lovely and it's in all good bookshops. Can everyone please calm down, but it's close enough, yeah. I just said that. You said, can everybody just calm down? The just is not in there? And the everybody's not in there. It's just, what's it called? Please, call.

No even please. It's called, can everyone please calm down? Okay, so there is a please. Can everyone please calm down? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. By May Martin. And it's really lovely and I cannot recommend it enough to everyone.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for sticking with us to the end. And just be yourself. Be yourself. Have a nice day. Have a nice day. May is open to all your questions.

It's her new job. Yeah, I genuinely am and I'm single and... And the Twitter is at May Martin? Yeah, at the May Martin. Oh, sorry, of course. Do you have a blue tick? I do, yeah, I do blue tick. Classy.

Is your Instagram private or are people allowed to go there as well? So public. Okay. Yeah. And her Instagram is at Who Raymond? Yes, yeah, yeah. Nice. Thank you so much and have a lovely week.

Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.