Nobody Panic - How to Understand Boundaries

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

The recent publication of Jonah's Hill text conversations sends Stevie and Tessa into a deep dive into learning what is a boundary? Was Jonah using the term correctly? (Spoiler: no) How can you use them in your own life? Are we doing more harm than good weaponsing therapy-speak? Fascinating stuff if we say so ourselves.Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true, Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. You're really triggering me with your behaviour. My boundary is that your boundaries are causing this to be a breakdown of communication. Wow, so it's like boundary top trumps.

Yes. I can't emotionally hold space for your lack of boundaries within this boundary discussion. I don't have the bandwidth to hear you right now. Yeah. So I need to take myself away and hold my own space. I respect that. I'm going to eat this nut. Yeah. Okay, well, as you almond again, I will try and.

welcome everyone to this week's episode, which is how to understand boundaries. There's going to be a jumping off point that is a... It was a news topic. It was a news item that happened this year or last year, depending on where you're at. And where we're at in the schedule. And you may have missed it, which goes, it's never happened to you. It doesn't matter. So we're not really going to discuss the thing.

I don't want to wade into these two celebrities' personal beef. That's not for us to say. No. But I was interested by a particular aspect of it, which is a lot of it. And which has led us to this very topic. I'm so excited to jump in. I'm very excited to jump in because I think it's a very confusing area. I can't wait to wade in there with you.

Oh, my God. Before we do. Oh, yeah. Hello. Do you want to tell everybody your adult thing this week? So, we have four plants on our balcony. One of them is a lavender. And it has died.

Oh, yeah. I was going to say, and it is dead. It's dead. I haven't even seen it. I just know it's a lavender. It's dead. But is it? because I spoke to my mom and was like, oh, the lavender's fucked.

And she's like, oh no, it just, it just does that. It looks like it's dead. You need to cut it back. And I was like, how much was that just a bit? Oh, Jesus. So I just did. And I thought, oh, this is just, well, if it's dead anyway, fine. Cut it back.

Guess who's popped out. It shoots. You're joking. My mom. The lavender. When did you cut back? Important to cut back. Oh, it's either do it in winter or, no, in the end of summer.

So when it's like moving towards autumn, if you're listening to you're like, absolutely not, it doesn't matter because I didn't look it up and I did it. And so how long between when you cut it and the re-sprout is my question. Oh, I was cutting it at the end of, so it could sort of grow and it flowered. And then it looked dead. I cut it. And then through the winter, it just kept looking dead.

And then it started to grow in spring sort of, or just a busy, a long time. But we're now on its second cycle. Okay. Oh, there wasn't like a week. Absolutely not. No, because they go dormant and dead for a while, lavender. If I'm honest, I can't tell you what season that is. It's at the moment, it's summer now.

Okay, so it's a classic plant. It flowers and spring and summer and is dormant in winter and autumn. Because the thing is, my mum said exactly the same thing to me, vis-a-vis my dead lavender, and I have ignored it. And you will find that that will mean it will die. Yeah, so I'll go up. Get your scissors, cut it back to a point where you go, yeah, I've cut that back.

Right, okay. And then it will... All the purple tops gone? Are they dead? Certainly brown. Yes. You want to be doing that anyway. You want to be deadhead in a way.

It's basically using up unnecessary energy and take up unnecessary water and stuff. And actually it needs to be focusing on, you know, it's like if you've got some sort of infection in your body and you're really tired. That's what the dead leaves are doing. They're pulling focus for the rest of the plant. So you want to be cutting everything off. Like everything, everything. So it looks like a, it looks like it's dead and bald. And you're like, oh, he looks sad.

Oh, right. And he's going to stay like that for ages. For ages. And together as strength. And then he's going to bud. And if he doesn't, it means he really had died. Okay. And then you just, you've, no love, no loss.

No love, no loss. No harm, no loss. No harm, no loss. No harm, no foul. No harm. No harm. What was your adult thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't know.

I was just doing a little. What was mine? Oh, the lavender. Lavender. Oh, God. Okay. Okay. Mine is, it's absolutely off the charts.

Oh, yes. You said, mamma, me. Yeah, that's how excited I was to remember my adult thing. So, I was currently dealing with my adult thing. So, I was currently dealing with my adult thing. I was currently dealing with a situation in which, as I imagine will be going on for the rest of my life, I cannot work out where my wardrobe is. Again, that wasn't where I thought the end of that sentence was going to go. Okay, the rest of the life, you can't work out where your wardrobe is.

That's right. I'm always just like, okay, so here's, I'm just living in small spaces being like, okay, here's one cupboard, but not, it's not enough cupboard for everything I need. Oh, you're trying to work out what cupboard to make your wardrobe? Yeah, but more like generally all the clothes, like where should they live? That sounded like you had a wardrobe of clothes and you just didn't know where it had gone. No, it's more just like a constant thing of being like, where is the blessed place? Where should the socks be? Absolutely. Where should I put jumpers?

Where should sportswear going? It's ongoing thing. Because then what will happen is the moment you get it right, your either clothing or circumstances will change. New wardrobe. Now you've got to do the whole thing again. A whole thing again. However, a thing that had become unsustainable and absurd is that socks were taking up. up three to four cupboards, like cupboard drawers. Like they were just, so in full cupboards eating with

there. There was no clear structure to what sock was where. There was socks here, socks there, socks there, socks everywhere. He's here, he's there, he's every fucking there. He's a sock. He's a sock. So I gathered all the socks in the home into one place in the middle of the living room. An assembly, a sock assembly. Sock assembly. Bald, paired. Ooh. Yeah. Did you have a bag for the loan boys? They remained just like on the table in the lone boys section. Your lone boy socks section is on your kitchen table. Oh, sorry, do you mean like, where are the lone boys now?

Yeah. Where are the lone boys now? I actually managed to do, I'm saying we because, remember I talked about in the ADHD episode, Wonderful Molly who has to basically come to my house once a week to watch me, supervise me to do these things. I was like, do not attempt sockpocalypse on your own. So Molly, Molly bald and supervised and we did socks together. That's really.

I'm an adult woman. And I have to pay another adult woman to come to my house and pull my socks with me. People pay cleaners to come and tidy their houses and clean them. Like, you're fine. We're all outsourcing where we can. Anyway, we actually did an incredible job vis-a-vis with the lone boys. They actually managed to find their pairs. All of them?

Yeah. And discovering a pair when you were like, there's this guy, hasn't. And then you're like, oh my God, here he is. And then you pair them up. It feels like old friends meeting, like you found their family. I get quite emotional. Yeah. Yeah.

And then they've got a whole bag. I just imagine when I'm like hugging and being like, you son of a bitch. Yeah. Where have you been? Tell me about your travels. Tell me where you've been. I've been under the bed for the bed for the bed. Two years.

I've never been living at the bottom of the laundry basket. She's been promising to wash me. She never will. I found then the biggest draw that had at this point been devoted to paperwork from like four years. I was like, why have I made this prime access? So I got rid of all the paperwork. Okay. Made it for the socks.

And I was like, but they're just all together, all the colours and bits and whatnot. Like I want them to be divided. Went to the roof with my electric saw. My mother's up there with the lavender. Cut myself to size some sheets of MDF. Oh, every story at some point. You fucking doing anything. Made myself.

She's made herself a sock divide of everybody. But it is hard to divide because then you're like, right, but what are we dividing by colour, by shape? Where are you having some bras? In the two small drawers above. Oh, great. Bras in one, pants in the other. Yes, you had a nature's natural divider.

Yeah. Two drawers. Nature's divider, two drawers. That's the thing. I wouldn't have to do this if I had nature's divider. Sure. Sure. Draws.

Normal drawers. They've just invented drawers. Okay, great. My God, I wouldn't be on the roof with my MDF if I had nature's divider. That's why I crave more space. But as it is, I've made that. And that is a boundary between two songs. Wow.

Okay, right, boundaries. Talk to me about why you wanted to do this as an episode. Okay, so in June of this year, Jonah Hill, and at this point, we will simply be saying the words allegedly and have, having simply no comment or opinion on any of this relationship. Jonah Hill was in a relationship, allegedly, no, he was, but with a professional surfer whose name is Sarah Brady. And they went out for an amount of time, and then they broke up and went their separate ways.

The relationship had fallen apart, and she released screenshots of text messages that had taken place in their relationship. And some of them were just him being a bit of a shit. And then some of them, the one that became very popular and everyone really started talking about, is he had written a bullet point list of things that he refused to have in a relationship. And he called these my boundaries.

And I saw this list and I was like, right, yeah? Like he comes across as an absolute shit, but yeah, those are his boundaries. But then what it sparked was this very interesting conversation in pitch. People were like, those are not boundaries. Those are things that you are enforcing on the other person in a relationship. Like you don't just get to say any old shit and then say, that's a boundary. Because it sounds, the word boundary is like, sounds like it's a psychological therapist sort of very important thing for you to do,

but actually you can't, it's, yeah, it's indistinguishable from just saying, I don't want you to do that. It's like, well, all right, fuck off. Exactly. I think, and it sparked two very interesting things. One is which nobody really understands what a boundary is. And two, if you can throw in some therapy speak in inverted commas, then you get away with doing all kinds of quite a bad behaviour. Yeah. Feels like that kind of switch. Do you remember when the self-care conversation was happening? Probably started around like 2012, 2013, 2014. Everyone was talking about like self-care.

And then suddenly it switched from like, you know, like, sometimes you can say no to things to like, it's okay to like not turn up to your friend's birthday and say and just like not give a shit and not text. Because you are in a space right now. It was like, well, I've got to maybe think about the context. Don't be a cunt about it. And suddenly, yeah, it became okay to just,

if you say the word like, I'm so sorry, I don't have to have the bandwidth, that you could just do anything. It would just, and there were loads of people being like, yeah, underneath all those tweets. And then people were being like, hang on, I think that's just being a bad friend. Yeah, there's a difference between like holding space for yourself and just not being a very nice person. Did you see the thing recently where it was somebody tweeted like, this is why I don't go for dinner with my broke ass friends because we wanted to split the bill and they insist on like paying for what they ordered.

And it was like, yeah, I simply like to go out with my friends who don't have any money and enjoy their company. I think, and I would be loath to say. Oh my gosh. But I think it was a joke because he was a father and it was his children. Right. Absolutely. Well done, sir. You've got one customer, hook line and sinker.

Okay. So I think the joke. But imagine. I think I think the reason it blew up, it's the feels like exactly. the sort of thing people say. Or the person who is like, if you need to ask for help, like moving house, book movers, like, or I'm never coming to get you from the airport. And you're like, why not? Like, be, what do you think friendship is? Or like being a neighbor or like being a human being? And then you get into a big, bigger discussion that's like, are we being

all boomerish? You know, when, you know, when people write things like, wild swimming, in my day, it was just called swimming, you know? And you're like, well, it is actually quite a useful phrase because are you in the pool or are you in a lake? Or are you in the wild. Or are you in the wild? That's what the phrase is there for. I don't make a big scene about it. I don't think it's boomerish to be like, sometimes, like, boundaries are fine, but sometimes you can paint them too far and be a dick. I think that's absolutely fine.

Okay, great. I say, as a millennial, probably being the most millennial thing in the world. But I don't think it is because also I think, like, when you're on TikTok or when you're like, I only say that because that's the only time I really like will engage a lot in, like, much younger people talking. There's that entire discourse is happening among younger people. It's not just older people going, come on. And young people are going, I'm, hold space for my triggers or whatever.

Okay. Firstly, he goes out with a professional surfer. Yes. And then he asked her to take down many of her surfing videos that were her job. She was at work. Right. And I believe she did take down lots of them. And then somehow overtext the conversation escalates out of control.

Please read it out. I absolutely will. Plain and simple. Then space, then colon. If you need space, colon. And another space. Oh, Jesus Christ. I feel sick.

Okay, here we go. Then a dash. Ah, why? Okay, because we're going to, here come the dashes. So if you need dash, surfing with men. And, okay, I don't want to unpack them, but what? Like, why can't she surf with men? Like, anyway, so if you need surfing with men,

boundaryless, inappropriate friendships with men, to model the concept of modelling. Oh, right, okay. To post pictures of yourself in a bathing suit. Which is her job because she's a bit of surfer. Yeah. To post sexual pictures. Friendships with women who are in unstable places

and from your wild and recent past. I mean, all of these are so subjective, right? Beyond getting a lunch or coffee or something respectful. Like what? Like a crucifix. A crucifix? Or making a crucifix together. Yeah, that, yeah.

Crocheting a prayer mat. Afternoon tea, probably quite respectful. I bet he would be thrilled with that. But no champagne. Absolutely not. That's from the wild and recent past. Right. Sure.

Then, so it says, if you need, and then this list, I am not the right partner for you. If these things bring you to a place of happiness, I support it, and there will be no hard feelings. These are my boundaries for romantic partnership, then completely new text. My boundaries with you based on the way these actions have hurt our trust. So, there's a lot of... It feels like so much of that is like, okay, fair enough, you want to tell me a list of things that you can't deal with.

Fine. I feel like it's the addition of that these are my boundaries and you have hurt, like, like, it's the guilt and the blame which is placed, which is. is completely unnecessary and with absolutely no idea that that list could possibly be conceived as anything other than, well, you should be okay with this. And also, this is your problem. And this phrasing of like, if these things bring you happiness, I support it. These are my boundaries for romantic. All this like very, you know, we're holding space. We're doing on saying. I'm being very reasonable. Because I'm being so reasonable. And then a psychiatrist

tweeted after it received this very large groundswell of people being like, he's just saying his boundaries and a nice, he's saying them, what's the problem here? And then people are like, those are not boundaries. So the psychiatrist tweets, the Jonah Hill stuff has been pretty instructive for having conversations about what boundaries actually are, brackets, limits on what you yourself are comfortable with, and what boundaries are not, brackets, placing restrictions on other people and the fact that not all boundaries are equally valid. So that's a very interesting idea that just saying the word boundary doesn't mean that they all have to hold the equal weight, which I thought was very interesting.

Because I read that it was like as well, like boundaries are something that you set yourself, but you can't possibly control others' behaviour. So say like, I remember a few years ago I had a friend who would make me feel bad. I think that's fair to say. I didn't really realise until I was doing therapy and I was like, I seem to be bringing up whenever I meet this friend, I seem to be leaving the interaction, feeling like a bit bullied, like a little bit like I used to when I was little and I was like at school

going bullied and I was a bit like well I suppose that's my life now my therapist is like yeah or you could like you could set a boundary here within yourself that it's like okay well I'm only going to meet this person if they happen to be there in a group because they're part of a group of friends and also you're not going to be the one to instigate one-on-one situations and if they do and if they instigate one-on-one situations you can just be busy and that's like you've set a boundary around yourself with that person and you have like put but you what you haven't what I haven't done is said to that person okay

you must only meet me in a one-on-one situation you must only do this you because that's unfair and you can only use boundaries to control yourself and to make a situation better rather than controlling the person whereas that is just a list of quite controlling behave like you can't do this and this and then this and then just saying the word boundary is that what the difference is I think it's exactly that I think when people used good examples of a lot of them were about alcohol And so if you were like, I know that I need to be aware of myself around alcohol. So one of my boundaries is like I make sure I don't go to nightclubs or I don't go to the pub. That's one of my personal boundaries.

But that doesn't mean anybody else in your life has to do anything with that information. Looking up how to set boundaries, it's so vague. It's all just like, recognise that you deserve to be treated with respect. You're a worthwhile person. That is very true. Take a second to define what the boundary you want, say in your relationship is. That's absolutely fine. Recognise what boundaries you'd like to set in place, what you need and want. All great so far. And then communicate your boundaries in a respectful manner. The issue with that

is, there's no actual no issues with those. But the thing is, so if you're thinking about, like I was speaking to somebody recently who's having a problem with their brother, who is, to be honest, she's talking about him, he's mean. He's obviously got a lot going on in his life. They've also got a lot going on in their family and they're all dealing with it in different ways. and the brother is dealing with it by basically treating her like shit. And all he's saying constantly is like, you are not respecting my boundaries. She feels like she can't do anything, right?

And he will bring up the term boundaries. Whenever she needs or wants something or steps forward or is like, and so she's very confused about where those boundaries are. If she wanted to put a boundary in with her brother, which she probably should, which is like essentially, if you didn't care about the context or how it would be received, you'd be like, I would like to put a boundary in

where we basically don't speak for a while because this is really, like, I'm struggling to communicate and you don't seem to like me and blah, blah, blah, blah. But the problem is, is that using that kind of like official speak gets people on the back foot. So what you can actually do is just put the boundary in. With that, like, just quietly put the boundary in and act accordingly.

And then, of course, if that person is confused as to why you were acting in a different way, then you chat about it. And you can say, like, I just felt like you needed a bit of space. I felt like we were on it, we were getting on each other's nerves, but there's no need to send a big email being like, I'm putting this boundary in place so that we don't speak, but you don't need to say it nine times out of ten. And then if you are pushed to say it, you can say it in a

human way, rather than the moment you start using therapy speak. It makes people feel defensive because it makes you sound like you're, you're being superior. And like you've read this book or you've spoken to your therapist and your therapist has said that you must put, because they are so poisonous and actually it's a bit of, it's always a bit of both. Even if that person's been a dick to you, like you will have rubbed them up the wrong way in some way that you haven't realised. You have no idea what's going on in the head and I'm not saying that Jonah Hill is his girlfriend's fault. What I am saying is we don't know their past. She may have cheated on him. Like we actually don't know. But like what he's done is he's been too specific and he's sort

of tried to, it's the therapy speak that's the problem. Also the kind of like big list of all the stuff. And it's like, this is for you and your own private. at time. Yeah, absolutely. And I think he obviously should have got out of the relationship a long time ago if all these things. But she's so sexy, the lady. The lady is so sexy. And that's quite clearly the issue, isn't it? It's clear that he was not in a place to be in this relationship and should have got out. But also, like, one of the suggestions, if you are trying to put one of these in place, is that there's a lot of, like, I get very upset when I see you doing this. And so for that reason, I won't be coming to that party because I'm like, but again, when you say, people have

use the phrase soft and hard, but the soft ones can be, the ones just in your head. You know, you don't have to tell everybody about them. And then maybe the hard ones are these, like, very concrete,

sorry, everyone does have to know this, again, like, alcohol or something like that. Absolutely. That's something that you would publicly say. Like, I'm no longer speaking, like, I've got friends who's falling out with his mom.

And he had to tell her, like, he had to actually say, like, he did say, I'm going to have to put a boundary in place here because this has got to a point where it's unsustainable for both of us.

It were hurting both of us. I'm just going to have to go in communicado for a bit. But just so you know, I don't love you. It's just that this is not good for either of us. And it's like, that's the way of doing it. That sounds so healthy. Because it is, yeah, because it just, and I think there's no way of cheating a healthy boundary or not.

It either is healthy or it's not. And Jonah Hills clearly isn't healthy, is it? Like, he's clearly not in the right relationship. If you're having to put that much in place so that you can just function as a couple. And that's the thing, even if they were things that they, this is, somebody has clarified it very helpful about that they are guidelines we create within relationships to make sure we feel safe and respected. They outline the expectations our friends and partners can have for us within those relationships. They are not demands, nor are they attempts to strip someone of their personal or professional autonomy. Do you have a personal boundary? Or a professional boundary? I have a boundary that was put in place by my partner. Okay. Which I think so. when we first started seeing each other, if said the wrong way or if said flippantly, would sound sort of odd.

But as with, I think, every boundary, you can't just, like, put it, you have to, like, talk about it a lot

and make sure that it's not something that is basically more than a boundary. He's very different socially to me. He's very socially anxious, actually, is the thing. And so things like wedding, he doesn't drink as well, things like weddings and stuff like that.

That's like, for me, it's like a fun time to go and have some drink and have some dance. And that's hell for him. It's like eight hours. I think it was eight hours having to socialise with people he doesn't know, which is his nightmare. And everyone then gets so drunk that you can't really speak to them. And he really doesn't like being around loads of drunk people.

He just finds it quite like stressful. And so halfway through, after like a few sort of like failed tend to not really talking about stuff, it was like, okay, the boundary, it's for me not to expect him to come to those things. because I, it got to the moment, I sort of was more stressed him coming along. He was trying so hard. They were just like dripping in sweat. So what we do now is it's just like, I basically presume no unless he goes, actually I will, I would like to come to that.

And other people may not be okay with that. So other people may be like, no, I want a partner that comes with me to all the staff. And that's great. But I don't need that. So that's why our relationship works, because we had to talk about it and I had to really think about whether it was something that, that would bother me or not, and it, and it doesn't. Does that count as like a boundary that he was like,

I need this for me because I feel bad all the time, like that I'm not coming to stuff? Absolutely. I think that where it would have fallen apart is if he'd said, you aren't allowed to go to the things. Exactly. Because I don't want to go to the things, so you aren't allowed to go on your own.

Or if you conversely had been like, you must come with me. And there have been the odd time, which we keep an eye on, which is, for example, if I'm out a lot, which is like there's birthdays or there's lunch, and he's not coming to them. And then they'll be like, well, we haven't seen it to them very much. It's like, well, this is because you make the decision to not come.

So there's like a balance there of like, you have to be aware that that is going to have a downside. And I have to be aware that that's going to have a downside. And we both have to be like, I have to be aware that if I'm going out loads, I want to organize things just the two of us too. But that I shouldn't have to constantly do that because that is his decision to not come. So it feels like a healthy boundary is something that you are constantly re-evaluating. and checking in with yourself, especially in a relationship that's like your relationship. With a friendship one, it's easier because it's somebody who's quite periphery in my life. So that just sort of raises its head occasionally.

I'll just go, do I feel comfortable being with this person for a bit? Yeah, I do. That's fine. And do I not? Well, then I know I've put set a boundary in place. So I'm absolutely fine to cancel. And I'm not going to feel guilty about that. And they don't know, like, I've set that boundary really because I didn't need to tell them.

Yes. They don't need to know it, I think, is an interesting thing, isn't it? because sometimes, but the partner one, you sort of do need to know all of them. I think with my partner, he works in an office and has a pretty set routine. And so when he comes home, he would like a bit of time to himself. Decompression time. If you will, whereas I'm immediately like, la la la la la. And think decontression time should be illegal because it is kind of, because in a minute we'll just have to go to sleep and then it will be quiet again until the morning.

And then you'll go to work again and when will you hang out with me? Absolutely. However, if he had said, you need to shut the fuck up for two hours a day, I would be like, well, I'm leaving this relationship. But what he did say, what we got to was, I really, really need to be quiet for a bit when I come home from work. He comes and he just sits on a sofa in silence. Where does he go? Just as a soap, he's watching Formula One. That's very nice.

Or sometimes he's doing, you won't believe what the Swedish expression is for watching videos on your phone. Mouse cinema. Holy shit. That's the best. That's the cutest best thing I've ever heard. Mouse cinema. Obviously, I don't like it. And I would prefer that he was not watching World War II feats of engineering on the mouse cinema again.

But I love him enough to be like, that's a thing that you need. And when it was expressed to me as a thing that he needed as opposed to you do this and it pisses me off. When they say, like, you know, communicate your boundaries in a respectful manner, it's, it's, Jonah Hill thought he was communicating those boundaries in a respectful manner. I think that's the worrying thing is I agree. I think I believe he did think he was doing a good job. Yes. Which is so stressful. It's so stressful.

I'm concerning that you truly thought he'd done a good job of that. A boundary should, when you have to express the I statement version of it, it should ultimately be quite cringe. Yeah. I know that I need to not talk for an hour a day. It's vulnerable, isn't it? I know that I get jealous when you don't wear many clothes. That is inherently a cringe statement.

Whereas when you dress like a slut, that is, you know, defamation. But yours, that you retain the power in that, yeah. Exactly, whereas it comes from a cringe place and you should be brave enough to say the cringe statement. It's all about being vulnerable, isn't it? You've got to be vulnerable. Wow, wow. Men do find it harder, don't they? To be vulnerable. And so he hasn't managed to be vulnerable at all there. He hasn't said, I'm an insecure man. You are so beautiful. I'm so scared about losing you, blah, blah, blah. He's said you look like a slut in a bathing suit and you're not allowed to wear one anymore. You're probably fucking all your friends. And you're fucking all your friends and you shouldn't be able to have these, the wild and

recent past shit, all of this, it should always be, here's my cringe, here's my cringe, would you be okay to meet me in the middle vis-a-vis the cringe? Yes, and because once you are genuinely, the word vulnerable again, is also therapists, because he probably believes he's being vulnerable in that message. But he's not, yeah, if you're conveying a boundary, you basically have to be aware that if you don't feel like you're being a bit submissive and you're like losing your power a bit, you're not actually setting the boundary in the way that you think you are. That's it.

That's it. Yes. because, Christ. God. Wow. Yes, if you aren't being in that fearful, vulnerable place, you aren't setting the boundary at all. Recognising your own failings and that's, because we all have failings.

Like with your friend, you know, you being like, you've gone to that place of fear and vulnerability. You've been like, this makes me very sad, which is a crint, like, and not to call you cringe. Oh, no, it is cringe. That's a cringe thing to be like, this friend makes me feel sad. And then you've gone to that place to set that boundary within yourself and been like, this is what I'm doing about my cringe. Yes, yes, rather many. I think what happens is so many people are not.

You're a dick. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not meeting you in again because you're a whore. Because you are. You're using that therapy language to make it sound like you're doing something that you're actually avoiding doing. But we do that all the time. Mamma, yeah.

Mama, wow. We do that all the time. What do you mean? No, people do that all the time, don't they? Like, people will say, like, I watch this really great musical. There's gone out called A Strange Loop.

And, like, there was a scene that really struck me, which is so it's about the protagonist is gay and it's black. And in the black community, there's a whole, added stigma on top of, you know, just just being gay. And his mom just keeps telling him how she loves him and is loving and understanding whilst not like, whilst being, and that's why we have to stop you being gay, essentially. Right, right, right, right. And he's consistently a bit trying to show her, like, look at what you've done, look at the harm you

have done, look at all of the way you talk about my cousin that died of AIDS, the way you talk about, like, this and this, I was terrified and you've created this sort of terror in me and, like, But college does accept me and she's finally like, oh my God, I get it. And that's why we should stop you being gay. And he's like, I can't reach you. And so there's this element of like humans will often like state what they are. Like family will stick together. And the families that say that all the time are often the families that aren't sticking together because they want to.

Like you just say what you want to be rather than actually doing. Because it's so much harder to actually be vulnerable. But it's easy to be like, well, I've used these words so I am being vulnerable. It's like, no, you've got to actually feel it. You've got to feel like you want to cry a bit. That's the only way. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

There's one tip, and it's that. You've got to cry with it. That's so powerful, Stevie. Well done. But you were the one that, you're the one that said it. You've said about it. Yeah. I'm agreeing with you.

No, I think we got that together. We both had revelations. In this wild and boundary list, recent past of our relationship. We should set boundaries, actually. Yeah. Just my final thing, I'm being like, it's every Disney movie, every parent. if they were just able to say the vulnerable bit, could just go to their cringe and say,

I'm so scared about losing you, particularly because your mother was killed in that mermaid accident. Absolutely. And you're very young. And you're so young. You're my favourite. And you're my favourite. And I'm so terrified of losing you.

This is why I'm so harsh with you. And I'm sorry. This is where it comes from. I, I, I, I. These are my ideal things to deal with. Instead of saying, you cannot leave the palace. you are not allowed to do anything.

Jasmine and all of them. It's just, and it comes from a raw, vulnerable, scared place in which they should have been able to address their cringe and instead they put all these women into the cage and they said you have to go into the cage and I'm right and you're wrong and then what did the women do? They broke out of the cage.

So there wouldn't be a film and that's, so basically, in a good way. Yeah, you're right. They just been like, Jasmine and I'm sorry I'm doing this and she could be like, well the thing is, Dad, I understand that. But also I could do this and we could compromise.

What's the film? Yeah, what's the film? Boring. There would be no Jafar probably. There'd be no Jafar. And that's the message, I think, if we all take home to be like, but if you do fix your boundaries, there will be no Jafar. So that's on you.

Okay. Okay. And Jafar's inherently problematic as a character, and we don't want Jafar. Okay, right. Aladdin is quite a problematic film anyways. Listen, we'll be discussing that off air. On air, the next episode.

How to watch the problematic film Aladdin? And why you shouldn't. Okay. If you want, don't you be saying coercive control on other people. Absolutely. I'm sitting the boundary that I won't be watching. You won't be watching it yourself. I've watched it enough, all right?

I've watched it so many times. Okay, goodbye, everyone. Bye, everyone. Goodbye.