Nobody Panic - How to Understand Non-Monogamy with Lucy Beresford

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Well, well, well. Keys in the bowl everybody, we're really getting into the weeds with this episode. What is non-monogamy? What can it mean for a relationship? Psychotherapist, writer and broadcaster Lucy Beresford joins Stevie and Tessa for a frank and fascinating dive into the world of non-monogamy.Follow Lucy on Twitter @LucyBeresford and Instagram @thelucyberesford1Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The date is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace. It's coming to London. True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September at King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello and welcome to No, you're here too. I am. And would you like to be in a relationship with me? No, thank you, but thank you for asking. Thank you. It's always good to ask. It's important to ask. Number one.

Number one, top tip, please ask. Number two, we'll introduce who's with us. It is broadcaster and psychotherapist Lucy Beresford. Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us about non-monogamy, which is what we're going to be discussing today. And right off the bat, before we started recording, you were talking about the differences between non-monogamy and polyamory. There's so much to talk about.

Absolutely. But before we get into it, do you want to explain to us a little bit about, you know, how what your sort of job is and how you work with kind of non-monogamy? You know, like, why is it your speciality? All sorts of things are my speciality. Of course. I don't turn anything down. Right. Firstly, thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for being. And giving me the chance to chat just to have conversations. I love having conversations with people. So I'm a broadcaster and a psychotherapist. My clinical work is. around relationships and sex and my previous LBC shows and Times Radio shows are very much around relationships and expanding people's knowledge because I think people can be very nervous that everyone else knows everything and they're the only one that doesn't know what to do or what to say

or what certain words mean and what certain techniques are available. So my big mission is to demystify anything to do with relationships or sex and I work as I say in broadcast media but also one-to-one clinically, sometimes with couples as well. But it's interesting, couples' work has more of a vision of it being about relationship problems, like after something like infidelity. And I think sometimes what happens is that people want the space just to talk about things on their own with a therapist before they then go back into their relationship and start to have conversations, for example, around do I want to be non-monogamous? And that I find a really interesting moment. I think there's a bit of a momentum at the moment, maybe a bit of a zeitgeist.

Yeah, I've read loads of things in the last sort of five years about it, whereas before it was such a not, it was such a like a, oh, what's it very non-mainstream, basically. And now it feels like quite a mainstream concept. It wasn't mainstream. And I think what's been happening is that more conversations have been taking place, particularly in the media. And you've got a company like Ashley Madison, for example, who are the world's leading married dating website people. They've brought out some research recently around. whether the model of monogamy is really dead in the water, that actually people are feeling a little bit more, if I'm going to live to 120, can I imagine being with the same person for possibly 80 or 90 years? Is that actually a model that is sustainable? So I think what's happening is that people are reflecting on what their needs, what their desires are, and they're looking for ways to make their relationships fulfilling without necessarily wanting to end that primary relationship. So what Ashley Madison would say is, okay, well, how do you have conversations with your partner around saying, I kind of want more, I've been thinking about different things, how do you feel about it?

Some of the work that I've actually been doing with them with Ashley Madison is around, okay, well, what could those conversations look like? Where would they take place? And what would happen at the end of it. So what we've been looking at about are things like almost drawing up a couples contract. Not that I'm talking about getting lawyers involved. This isn't about, you know, spending money in any shape or form. It's about just having conversations and sitting and talking about your relationship. And even if you're not interested in non-monogamy, that's a really good thing to do with your

partner anyways, to have constant conversations about where we're going. What do you like? What do you not like? Because we, you know, our desires involve over time. I'm sure you've had experience with that. Listeners would have had experience of the fact that the person you are, yeah, five, ten years ago is very different to the person you are now, particularly sexually or romantically. God, it's fascinating.

I wonder if at dinner parties, if you say what you do, people say, and do you do like sex coaching? And then they're like, and is it naked? So I think that's... What's not the question? That's what's known as a projection. That actually, you're assuming that everyone will be asking the question that you secretly have been thinking about. And you're blushing.

So I know that's true. Certainly when I do say what my job is, there is that one niche that is much more interesting for everybody else. They're not really interested in me talking about anything other than sex, which just proves my point, which is that absolutely everybody is curious about sex and what everyone else is doing and are they doing it more than me and are they better than me?

Because people can talk about it quite honestly, but honestly is in massive quotation marks because you're still projecting a certain image of yourself and you still, you know, like with the kind of sex in the city era, women were sort of felt like they could be a bit more outrageous about sex. But then there was this whole, I remember when I used to be a journalist in the 2010s, the whole point of it was to be like alternative to the kind of sanitised view of sex or like, how to please your man.

So it was all these crazy things that women should be doing. And quite a few of us were like, I just want to have nice missionary position. What's wrong with that? We love being strangled. No, no, we really don't. Sometimes you don't. Yeah, exactly. But I think there's also that fear.

People reveal that they're going to give something. away that when someone says, so do lots of people fantasize about nuns? You know that you're kind of revealing something about yourself and therefore people don't want to do that. They don't want to give anything away. Whereas in fact, what really is at the heart of everything is we just want to have that really deep and safe connection. But I wanted to just pick up on what you said about the difference between like the words that we're using. So non-monogamy because obviously when you read these articles, they'll often talk about polyamory or and I don't know if they're being sort of, you can't really tell if it's

being quite broad and they're just sort of saying that because that's like the hot word at the moment or what it means. So like what are the different terms for basically not being monogamous? Yeah, so monogamy is obviously sticking with one person and being committed to that one person and non-monogamy is the umbrella term for other ideas which could be. So you stay in your primary couple and then you make a decision to have someone else or multiple others. and then you make a decision, is this going to be just about sex? Is it just going to be about emotional connection? Is it going to be short-term, long-term?

Are we always going to meet as a threesome or a four-sum or a fivesome? Or is it that I'm going to be here anchoring it and you go out? And then you anchor and I go out. So lots of different variations. And polyamory in particular, I think for a lot of people, again, the terms are so fluid. They can often mean just what the couple wants them to mean or even an individual.

But for polyamory, it would probably be more about saying, we're going to have more than one other. We're going to have. And we might interchange that over a period of time. And we'll have, but we'll only have that person because we know they live in a different town or a different country and they only come in frequently. All sorts of options are up for grabs.

You, in a way, as a couple, decide what that term means for you. And some people really shy away from the term polyamory because they think it has a negative connotation, which is a bit unfortunate because for some people it really works. But people who haven't been involved in it can be very judgmental. Well, they can be very judgmental about non-monogamy right off the bat, and which is why I'm, I think it's really important to recognize that you're not necessarily even going to have a conversation with your partner

and they agree to it. It might be something that feels really intriguing for you. It's a very difficult conversation. It's a very different conversation. It's what if they say no, and then you're just like live in your life, like they want to have sex with the people, you know, and that must be quite tricky. But if you think about it, that could happen at any stage in a relationship. You might actually say it's really important to me that I see my parents every Sunday and the other people

don't really like that. And then you're sitting there thinking, I'm in a situation where there's a conflict between what they want. Or it could be, yes, in the sexual area. It's like, I really like spanking. I really don't like spanking. So what are we going to do? Is it a deal breaker? does it actually mean that all the other amazing things that we have are now going to be thrown out the window because every once in a while you want to do this thing and it just really doesn't turn me on at all. So that kind of conversation could be being had at any stage

doesn't have to just be about monogamy. But I do think, again, when I was working with Ashley Madison about how to talk about this topic, I had in a way three main pillars. The first is do the work on yourself to really work out whether this is, is actually what you want to introduce as a conversation topic. Because there's no point in just, actually what could happen is that they could be listening

to your podcast and they could use that as a jumping off point to say, I was listening to this, I have been thinking about this for some time. So I'd really like to talk to you about it. But definitely do some work on yourself so that it's not just some random thing that you think about one day and then talk about the next because it is quite a big ask to go into a relationship say I'd like to completely upend how we do this and how many people are involved in it. It's quite hard as well to know what, I find it quite interesting how little sometimes I know what I want. Like I'll think I want something about anything. And then actually when I sort of sit

with it, I'll be like, it's actually how I wanted this, which was completely different. So I suppose yeah. Well, that's a classic example actually, because people might think, I think I really want to start talking about introducing a third person. Whereas in fact, what they really saying is, I'm really bored in this relationship or I'm really frustrated or I can't see it going any further and I kind of want one half, one foot in and one foot up. So I think it's really important to be very honest with yourself about why you might be wanting to introduce this. Is it because you can genuinely see yourself with your primary partner for the next 50 years doing this new variation on a theme or do you want out? Or are you just very bored? Have you been married for 20 years? The kids are

10 years old enough doing their own thing and you're now looking around thinking what do we do what do we do for the next 30 years so be that in my view is initially be very mindful about why you're presenting this and if you're absolutely certain that it's something you really want to introduce then initiate the conversation and that's the next bit of the pillar is how to have that conversation yeah and it's really important in my view that you prep it so that it's a very serious conversation. You take it seriously. You're not driving to Sainsbury's and looking for a parking space and suddenly say, oh, by the way, that other supermarkets are available. It doesn't work for any supermarket. Actually, this is a conversation. It's all I'm saying. But kind of say to your

partner, I really love our relationship. And I've been thinking about this thing that maybe we could do as wondering whether we could have a really good conversation about it. Maybe every dinner, maybe we could go for that walk on Sunday that we'd always promise ourselves, but set aside a goodly amount of time to have that conversation. And then in the conversation, talk about what you want, but also listen, do a lot of listening to hear how that's received. Because of course, you may find that they say, I'm so glad you've said that because I've been thinking about exactly the same thing. And that would be amazing. That's the dream, isn't it? Yeah. That's what you want to happen. And then they may not. They may be very uncertain. I imagine quite defensive would be,

because I'm sort of a non-nonomomist, which is monogamy. And if my partner sort of started to talk about that, I imagine I'd feel quite stressed. But if he wasn't sort of like picking up on the signals and just kind of like absolutely bulldozing and just keeping going, you'd be like, stop. So you have to, I suppose, really look at the body language of the person. Because also as well, like initially it might be something that they kind of go,

oh my gosh, but then when you talk more about it, they might kind of... I've got a few friends that are in non-monogamous relationships and apart from the fact that every time they talk about it, I'm always like, so how does it work? Like, what's the admin like? Like, what are the rules? And I always find it interesting about how they came to that agreement. And often it's really quite early on.

And it's like something that they both sort of knew going in and then they decided to do. But it does seem like, yeah, just the crucial thing is just being on the same page as your partner, making sure that you're not just sort of bulldozing the relationship. One person that I know had that conversation and their partner was very receptive, but that's because their partner is quite a passive and receptive and was like in their heads like, okay, I suppose that's what they want and that's what I have to do to keep them.

And that's very difficult. Like it's very difficult and of course it doesn't work out, but it is fascinating. Although again, I would stress that that happens in relationships all the time. Of course it does. There are all sorts of choice if people have kids because they're too passive and the other person said, let's have kids or let's not have kids. The conversation and the compromise and all the stuff is like it happens with all the things. all the time, people being like, I want to watch Spurs every Saturday all day, and the other person's

like, I don't. This is, this difficult conversation is only a sex thing, being like, it's actually you have it all the time with your partner every day about everything. And this compromised exactly what you said. They're about like people make that compromise or that passive decision with so many things in their life. And it doesn't have. There's negotiation that happens a lot. And sometimes we don't know that we're negotiating. And sometimes we give things away because in fact, they're very easy to give away. And other times we're really, as you say, defensive about the things that feel very protective and feel very important to us. And this is a classic example where someone is going to have to break cover and say,

this is actually what I've been thinking about, how does that sound? And you're right, it might take a bit of time. You'll definitely need, I'm sure, to have more than one conversation. And what I say to some of my clients is, you know, be prepared. If it's really, really important for you, you might have to play a long game. You might have to introduce them to this podcast. You might have to send them to YouTube to watch. videos so that they can become acclimatized. You'll know your partner's style. You have to kind of

warm them up in a way to get them to change their mind about something. But once you are on the same page, that's where the couple's contract comes in this document, which again, I don't want to make it sound like anything really heavy hitting, but it is unbelievably helpful to have things written down. Because in the joy of the moment of, yes, let's do it, we're really enthusiastic. It's going to be brilliant. You need to make some ground rules and say, what is the admin going to be? How does it get structured? And also, what happens if some of the rules are broken? You'd probably have a similar situation, although you don't go on a second date and say, so how do you deal with infidelity? If we were to get married and 10 years down the line,

no one has those conversations. But this is a brilliant opportunity to actually sit down and say, So what would we do if, you know, how do we address things like safe sex? Is this just going to be about sex or is it going to be about emotional engagement? What happens if one of us gets jealous? Everything is down there. And in a funny way, all couples ought to be having conversations of this depth a lot of the time. But we forget to do it. We get into these little safe grooves.

But actually what you need to be doing is having conversations all the time, whether you're monogamous or non-monogamous about where are we going? What do you really love? What do you miss? It's come under the brella of non-monogamy, but I would love all couples to be doing this, to have a relationship audit at the end of every year. Yeah, relationship. If your partner is unfaithful and you're in a monogamous relationship, you both sort of need to be on the same page with what would happen if that happened, you know, or even if it's like, even if that isn't actually, because when it actually happens, I imagine it feels very different to academically discussing it.

I've given a TED talk on that. Oh, great. The TED Talk title really draws you in because I think it is that particular dilemma, which is infidelity to stay or to go. Because in theory, everyone's like, no strikes. You do that to me and you are out. But actually the reality in what I've seen in my work with my clients is all too readily. People are like, but I've been with this person my whole adult life or I've been married for 10 years or we have two children together or whatever.

the reason is I love that person and now and now this has happened. So it isn't just a case of going. So now what are the options? And I think that's absolutely right in a monogamous relationship and in a non-monogamous as well. You'd say, that's fine. We're cool. We're chilled. We're modern. You can do your own thing and actually what then happens, people feel very differently. So I think that contract. I think it also needs to be audited or monitored. I can't think of the right word. Yeah, like updated if one of you changes their mind. Exactly. Let's look at it after a month. I always say after the first month, for sure,

because it could flare up all sorts of really interesting things or mobilise different emotions. And then maybe once you're in the rhythm of it, maybe every six months, maybe then at least every year. But that's because I think every relationship should have a relationship order. Yeah. Yeah. I love doing that. I love that.

I follow a lot of Reddit form in which people ask advice. from the internet and people sort of screenshot the best ones and put them on Twitter. And one of them was a man who I think had an American, two kids and was bored with his wife and had suggested they open up the marriage, which he imagined would be him having all this hot sex. And then he wrote something like, I absolutely fucked it. I haven't got a single date and she's having the time of her life. And I want to, can I now say, let's go back to how we were.

And you're like, no, and she should leave you. like, and that was what the... You should definitely have a relationship audit, sir. Yeah, exactly. And I think there's so many people who don't go through this bravery of the relationship audit, and actually so many relationships deserve to be looked at to be like, maybe this MOT, this car is not roadworthy anymore. Yeah. And we have to be brave and be like, this doesn't serve either of us. But there's also, I think there's a fear that maybe that's where the fear of having an audit comes from.

Because maybe it comes from that with me sometimes in past relationships, they've been not good. Like I haven't wanted to talk about it because I'm frightened of what will come out. And I think there's this thing of like your relationship has to be sort of this or it's not right. Like red flags or if we disagree on this one fundamental thing, well, does that mean that we shouldn't be together? Whereas actually you can work through lots of differences. But like so for example, if that man had had a conversation, like it might be that they can actually work out something that allows both of them to be really happy. but it is that like all or nothing where we're all like, well, that's happened. So I suppose the relationship was over.

Well, that's why I gave the TED talk actually because I thought it was very unfair and you get a lot of critiques from outside. Of course. Everyone's saying, leave him, dumb. Get rid of her. Everyone else shimes in and tells you what they think because they're coming at it from their own perspective. And I think that you can only really get the connection that you want intimately if you're prepared to be vulnerable. So that husband, who's now feeling, you know, dateless and Norman no mates and his wife's off having the time of her life, it's going to be really brave to go to her and say, I made a mistake. And I'm jealous of what you have, but I really, it may be value you even more or whatever else he might say.

That honesty is so important in a relationship. And you're absolutely right. You can definitely move past that. We all know couples who've been married for sort of, you know, 30, 40, 50 years. And everyone wants to know the secret of that. they imagine that it's been this incredible happy 30 or 40 or 50 years. And what you discover is, no, there was a lot of really difficult stuff. And there might have been times where they all thought, I'm going to leave. And unfortunately, for many women, that was an option that

wasn't available for them, maybe a generation ago because of, you know, finances or whatever. And before that stigma. So things have changed. But a lot of the time it's about muddling through and just saying we are going to get through this together. Having said to which, as I said, if the infidelity is repeated, I think it's fine to stay and work it through. But if you then discover that there's a pattern and that every three years or every time they change a job or whatever, if you discover that you're on the receiving end of a serial cheater, then you definitely have my permission to go. But also, that's a breach of the couple's contract, isn't it? Because it's like, it's a monogamous relationship and, okay, there's been a transgression, shall we say.

and everyone's moved past it and the work that both of you, but mainly the person who's been cheated on, has had to do to get back to the level of like forgiveness, then it's betrayed again. So it's similar to the, but with the non-monogamous contract, you know, say if it was like,

okay, we're gonna, we only have sex with people in this sort of particular way or like if you go off and have sex with something, that's fine, but it's not an emotional connection, then you find out that they have actually been. Each couple has their own sense

of what is betrayal or what is... Oh my goodness, absolutely. While you were talking, I was thinking of a friend of mine, and she was very clear. She had said to her husband, who's also a friend of mine, if you were to have a sort of drunken snog at the office party, we can talk about that. Even if it was a one-night stand, we can definitely talk about it. But if it's more than that, then we can't. And he's always known that that's the leeway I've got. You need to work out what you as the couple can sustain, what your rules are going to be. And that's why it's really important that there are moments where outside influence doesn't really get brought to bear.

And the couple's contract is a classic example of that. It's got to be what the two of you want, singing from the same song sheet. You must have seen and worked with lots of non-monogamous people. And so you've seen the sort of pitfalls as well of like, you know, what can go wrong. Would you say that the couple's contract is one? And like basically not being on the same page as one of the main sort of things that you say that go wrong? No, the thing that goes wrong is that the human heart is hard to predict and that the person with every good intention will go in saying,

I do not see this as being an emotional engagement. It's purely going to be about sex, it's going to be at fun, spontaneity, frivolity, we're going to bring new energy in and one of them falls in love or one of them finds that the connection is just too deep. and I'm going to have to be honest and say that that's what I've observed in every single non-monogamous relationship that I've had to work with. Now, clearly, that's a self-selecting universe of people because they are now coming to see me because there has become a problem. Yes. But nevertheless, it's theoretically true that the problems could be different.

And I'm saying to you that it's always the same problem. I did biological anthropology at university. and I was always specialised in primates and monkey penises loved it, was always very clear that humans aren't supposed to be monogamous and that sex and love are like two separate things. And in my current relationship, current sounds like I might leave them at any time. But we is very, we do have a bit of a, now this and it's completely theoretical and we've never done it. But we had this a couple's contract that was like, we both travel quite a lot.

And it's like, if you're in a different city and there's flirting and kissing, fine. live your life. What happens on tour, stays on tour. What happens on tour, stays on tour. And I was very clear, like, you just have to tell me, because the lying is the part of it that I don't care for. Because I think the power of the cheating and something happening behind my back, I don't want to know.

But I want you to tell me. And I was very clear, like, you can, if they're really hot and, like, famous and you're like, come on. I met this actress. Like, of course, I have sex. Yeah, because I have a pass, just in case he's listening to your podcast, Daniel Craig, if he comes knocking. Fair.

Yeah. He's a big of like, I would never. Like, I would never ever stop you with, like, Daniel Craig, if, you know, Megan Fox showed up a party and was like, I'd be like, obviously go for your life, you know, you must. But I was very clear, like, there's not to be any laughing. There's no laughing. If you laugh with somebody else. Having a fun time. No, that's a no.

And it's really, because it is theoretical and we're not done it, like, but those are the rules. Like, it's really easy for me to be like, yes, you can have this completely sexual, hot sex with Megan Fox. and tell me about it afterwards. And why would the laughter be such a thing for you? That's the emotional bond. That's the emotional bond bit of like, I don't want to laugh with somebody else. Because if he's laughing with somebody,

that's the thing about like, the sex thing is so like physical and it's like going zip lining with somebody. Like it's so separate. Is that what sex is like? I've always wanted to know. It's just a physical thing, whereas the laughing is this emotional connection.

and the thought of him laughing with somebody else is very stressful for me but the thought of him having sex with Megan Fox is sort of fine but if him and Megan are like getting a bagel in the morning like that's so sad so like I think so no bagels or laughing

oh yeah no no actually has to no branch that's not allowed okay yeah it's basically just sex nothing else yeah but I think it's so easy for me to set these rules and say this stuff and then exactly what you said there about the emot that's where it goes wrong that is the downfall that is in my heart of hearts has been and like, that's what I think, what if? Because what if he's laughing with Megan Phop is quite funny.

Yeah, because you might have have a one-night-sum, and then she cracks some absolutely classic gags. You're like, well, now, I can't leave now. That would be the break of the contract. That would be those consequences are too much. That's too hard for me. So in fact, the idea of a couple's contract for a non-monogamous relationship is a bit of a no-brainer.

I think most people listening to this will recognise that actually that's not something really weird or something really novel, that actually on some level, even if it's not actively written down. I don't know whether you've, you know, no, it's not written down. It's framed on your wall.

Yeah, it's framed in his luggage everywhere, so he always knows the rules. It's always in my passport. Yeah. So it's just, yeah, I think every couple would understand that there are these rules that get created and sometimes they're not really spoken about but everybody knows you don't do that.

That's the line. Yeah. It's just that this makes it more healthy. This is about saying, you know, on the 8th of June, 2023, we did agree that in an ideal world, we wouldn't fall in love. We would only have it for this. We'd only have maybe one extra marital partner at a time.

We're not going to tell your parents. We're not going to tell the children. You know, all sorts of things can come into play. Are we going to tell any of our friends? That's really interesting. Are we going to go on holidays with these people? Oh, no. I'm not going on holiday with Megan Fox.

No, thank you. I like her it's always Megan Fox. It's so interesting, isn't it, of like, what people are. people's boundaries would be and how you've got to have these conversations with your person because people might be so different. And I'm like, do we say tell our friends, do we go on holiday with them? These are these like huge questions. Because maybe let's like a friend in then suddenly you've got other people's judgment that may sway your feelings. And now everyone's exactly, exactly. No, no, you're completely agreeing. Like other people's opinions are here. People are going,

you know, Stevie goes on holiday with Megan Fox now and she's the third. And I'm really, Tess is on the spare wheel. She's just watching Tess's partner. She's there. back the box I remember when they're like God, but what are they up to? But like maybe, I don't know, maybe what you're saying about like all these couples that make it for 40 years

like everyone's got their own personal thing going on. I don't know if you saw them season two of White Lotus but there was this absolutely toxic but extremely hot American couple who were both of them dreadful people and they were cheating on each other but the sort of message at the end of it

was that like they were making their marriage work like they were very in love and they were very happy and while what they were doing was sort of mad they did have this sort of unwritten contract and it was clear she was a bit sad though i did get that impression there's a lot of wistfulness then she sort of banged his friend to kind of like get back at him i think like there's a book did she walked onto the island with the oh yeah maybe i'm reading it back but like i really felt like they were quite genuinely it did show that things work

even if traditionally you'd go god leave him yeah why should she leave him that's my point actually that you never really know what's, you never really know what the unconscious fit is for people, the reason why we get together, which is usually to do with kind of childhood trauma and childhood unresolved issues that we're often seeking, you know,

to repair something from our past in our present relationships. And therefore, that's why it is, that's a whole other episode. Sorry, that's so deep, and you're just very casual, I'm like,

we're looking to repair. Please continue. All I'm thinking about is my past, but please continue. We'll do that another time. Another episode. I think that that is why couples often stay together because it's working on that unconscious level,

but they're often having to compensate in other ways, maybe by having other relationships, or there's a lot of rouse, or there's a lot of time apart, or they're too close together. But I think if we recognize that all relationships are just mud, we're trying to make the best of it, because most people are terrified of being on their own, then people will make lots of trade-offs.

They will make a judgment call that I'd sooner keep you with Megan Fox in the picture than not have you at all. That might be what some people would say. Yeah, we're all kind of like patchworks, ever-changing patchworks of people and it's kind of okay to like, because the idea of opening it out

and then being like, oh, I want to fold it back in, please. It's like, well, is that a failure? And it's like, no, of course it's not. It's like, so for example, if your partner did come back and was like, I slept with someone. And you were like, oh my God, I feel absolute dog shit. Like, that would be okay. And it doesn't mean that you have to now be like, well, that's the end of our relationship.

It's like, no, the next stage is talking. Redo the contract, please. Yeah, yeah. That's the thing for me. I have some changes. Yeah, yeah, you can amend the contract every year. My hubris. I overbelieved how good at fine I'd be.

Was there a single laugh? Was there any point where there was even an approaching of a laugh? Yeah. Like, it's so, yeah, it's so tricky. but because it's, I think, yeah, I'm quite like traditional in my things, but that's, but it's taken me a long time. Like, we've done on the podcast before about one night stand and I was like, I didn't like them. And I've always been like, God, I'm so lame. You're like, no, it's just that I don't like them.

Like, I need an emotional connection to have sex with someone. I absolutely need that 100%. So I couldn't go out and have some sort of situation, animal situation, and then come back and be like, I didn't feel anything. I would have felt something. So that's the contract that I have, but that's very different to your contract, clearly. And that's fine, you know, and that's what makes it work. I find it just really fascinating. But again, it goes back to what we were saying right at the beginning,

which is, is it okay to be me? Is it okay for me to have my vision of what works for me? And if it is the missionary position, and if it is being in a relationship with just one person and not having one night stands, then that is you. And that is going to be okay. It's not just the missionary position. I'm not really, you're not right.

It is okay. I've just told you. I'm just told you. It's okay. Yeah, no, I know, I know. Missionary. Absolutely. 10 minutes. We're going to wrap up now then, hadn't we?

You should get ready. So I can prepare. Get home and prepare. Start limbering up. Did you, by chance, see the Louis Theroux documentary about polyamory? Yes, but quite some time ago. Yeah. I just, I really felt watching it that there was lots of married couples,

one of whom was, had asked to open up the relationship and was having a lovely time. Living their best life. And one party who had learnt the word compersion, which is finding joy and the other person's joy. And he's like incredibly just sad. There's just like one quite famous shot of this incredibly sad man who's desperately in love with his wife, who's asked like 10 years ago to open up the relationship. And he never found any partner. She found many of them, one of whom stays every Thursday night.

And he's like, do you want a tea? And they're both like, no, we're all good. You should head up and you look tired and you should go to bed. And he's like, okay. And then he just like so forlornly goes upstairs to bed. And I think it gave this like, at what point do you just like be like my sadness and the relationship is too much? But is it okay to be me?

At what point do you have to say the line of like, this is actually killing me, making you happy when I want to be missionary it on Thursday with just you? Like at what point do you have to say that is too important to me and more important than you? I think that's a question that a lot of people end up asking themselves in a relationship is at what point do I have to say that I don't think I'm being treated with respect or I don't like you drinking or I don't like the way in which you talk

to me or I don't like the fact that you don't support me with your mother and people's thinking to themselves, can I do this for another 20 or 30 years? Or have I got to give myself the chance to find someone who does make me feel valued who doesn't say horrible things to me when they've been drinking. So again, I think whatever you might be asking me around in the realms of polyamory and non-monogamy is actually just a variation on what any conversation happens in romantic relationships. Because because we do make lots of compromises and a lot of those compromises are around, I don't want to be out there again on my own. That was a line given to me by a friend of mine many, many, many years ago who cancelled her wedding.

I mean, what a brave thing to do when, you know, all the announcements have gone, where the invitations have gone out and that kind of stuff. But the thing that held, the reason why it got to the pitch of having to do it at such late notice, or late in the day, was that she had not really wanted to ever be out there dating again. And I think that fear of being on their own, fear of being lonely, fear of regret, that holds a lot of people. back from saying I am not being valued or treated respectfully in this relationship and I need to get out and therefore that man who I do remember that I do remember it being very sad but I also remember thinking and he can't leave because the the pain of leaving he imagines will be greater than the pain he's now going through whereas he's made the decision that he will put up with that this pain because the other pain which he does which is more abstract where

as I was reading a great book yesterday called Battle Ready. It's a motivational book. This guy was in the SAS and it's very much about, you know, harnessing your mind. And right at the end, he mentions somebody he did know, a woman who'd been on a course with him. And she had said something like, yeah, and I left my husband after reading one of your books. And he was like, oh, gosh, I'm really sorry. And she said, no, no, no. It was the best thing.

It was, you know, short-term pain for long-term gain. And that's, you know, that's how some people. will need to reframe it in order to get out. But if they can't reframe it, then they'll have to stay. Yeah, of course. That's such a wise way of you. I mean, you've been so credibly wise this whole time, but that's that then being like, if you can't reframe it, you have to stay? At no point have you said, he should leave or this should happen or you must be brave or you should make this decision for yourself. You've just said, if you can't reframe it, then you have to stay. And you're like looking at that sad man, you're like, he has to stay now because he's decided this

pain is this and you've not, I guess that must be such a part of your work that you don't bring your opinion to the table with a couple and be like, obviously leave. You have to be like, you've made this decision and this is where your level of pain is at and you've decided your current pain is smaller than your perceived pain when you go. I think that, yeah. And also with the polyamory, we've talked a lot about the person that makes the decision, but the person who is brought to and then, you know, it has to evaluate whether they're still having a nice time each time and whether that if there is pain there or if it's difficult is it too difficult for them like is it worth the relationship difficult you know like that kind of

stuff it's like a constant balancing but like like like you say that's with everything you know so it's just like another category of am i willing to put up with this is this and like you know we do it in our relationships all the time like someone will say something or want to do something like okay do I well like really okay yeah I like I like the most of the more. I like really okay yeah I like I like more than that decision that you just did. I think that is really the overall theme of this episode because even though maybe the headline was about saying, we're going to talk today about something that maybe you don't really know very much about

or feels a bit out there, actually what I'm here to say is it's no more out there than any other conversations that you may have had with your partner about anything else. And that's the nature of relationships. It's a constant evaluation, a negotiation of where we're at and where we're at and where we're going. And that's what makes relationships so beautiful. It makes what's make them so challenging, I guess.

And no relationship is perfect. That's the key thing. So just make sure you're in one that makes you feel you're able to show up as your best self. Brilliant. What a great place to end. Gosh. Thank you so much, Lucy. That was so fascinating.

It was really eye-opening, and I'm excited to listen to your TED Talk. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Immediately, we're all going to go and watch your TED Talk. Where can people find you if they want? Do you have any, like, social media? Yes, I'm on Twitter. Great.

At Lucy Beresford. Great. And on Instagram, the Lucy Beresford one. Also, if you're interested in married dating, Ben, Ashley Madison is the site I imagine that you go to. And do you, are you currently accepting new clients and people who want to come see you in a one-on-one basis? Yes, I'm always always interested in having a conversation. Yes, always interested in having a conversation. That's so nice.

Excellent. Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. and we'll see you all later. I'm off the draft of a contract. Fantastic.

I'm off to meet Daniel Craig. I'm off to punch me, Fox.