Nobody Panic - How to Unlock Your Creativity

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Think you're not creative? You are. Every human being is creative in some way! Tessa has been doing The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron and Stevie has been doing Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert and they both discuss how to get the creative juices flowing in any field. Metaphysical field, you don't need to be sat in a meadow.Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true, Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. I'm so uncreative. Great, great. Mrs. Chadwick, my Year 5 art teacher,

said I'd never be able to draw anything. Mrs. Chadwick feels very specific. A lot of people have all kinds of feelings around their sense of creativity that's either like, oh, not me, I'm not creative at all. Life is just living out the narratives we've told ourselves. Oh, wow. It really is. But actually, the side of the thing is when someone says,

oh yeah, I'm not very creative at all. You're like, you are, by definition, every single person. is creative. You might be really creative with numbers. You might be really creative with practical things. You might be really creative with painting. Like there are very different. There's like a Venn diagram of creativity, but all of every single person has something. Every physical thing that you make was once in your mind. Now it's in your hands. You know? That's creativity. That's inherently, that's creativity. Like, are you kidding? You thought of it? And now it's here. Yeah. Wow. But we're really clear that like when we imagine

a creative person imagine like painting is still life and have to leave the party because I've inspired you know or something like that immediately as well uh is an interesting that whenever i think of creative person i do the same thing as you as we start talking very very posh very like this yeah of course you're like yes creativity is for the upper classes of course yes exactly and for no one northern not no no no it's uh too busy being down the minds of course obviously well there's no creative in the mind of course you're not being caught with rock are you crazy well how can the mind live and soar in such a dark environment. You know, it's what, and so, it's an area that we're like, oh yeah, creative, creative.

And yet already we've, there's so much emotion attached to it that everybody brings to the table of what creativity is and is not on your own personal journey with it. And often all of it is wrong. Well, it's wrong. Speaking of emotions and personal journeys, would you like to tell the people what's happening? We're doing a soft launch. We're sort of launching something. But Tessa can't stop crying about.

I'm not crying. Makes me feel like I'm got no... But I have many feelings, but I like to defer them. So in about three months, I'll start crying. Okay. So prepare yourself. But... It's not that bad.

Next week's episode is called How to Let People Down. And we'll be our... Not Forever, but will be our last episode for a little while. For a bit. We are taking a... break because I will be in a different country. I am going to America. It's all very exciting. It's a very exciting show. I'm working on a TV show and it's really exciting and amazing, but it also means I have to go. Yes. And it feels... This is the end. Imagine what the last episode is going to be. It just feels like a lot.

Yeah. and I don't want to let you down. You've not. I said so many times. Don't want to let the listeners down. Closive will never be let down because they've got off menu. I'm so sorry to inform me, that does so much bad in our podcast.

They don't need those. You're actually not letting anyone down. Yeah, but I also didn't want to just be like, by the way, there's a surprise for next week, because for me, if I heard that, I wouldn't be able to breathe for a week. Understood. I'm not one for, there's news tomorrow.

I'm like, no, now, give it to me now. Yes, yes. we'll discuss it in more depth next week I just wanted to give everyone a bit of a pre if I may I often feel this is a bit for me okay everyone here's the last song

one more song this really is very deep within you the one more song thing you've got to let the people you've got to prepare the people and then you've got to give the people a little bit of little something something afterwards you can't just be like

oh by the way this is the end you're like what no it's not the end it's just a pause for a little while and yeah just have having some big feelings. Yeah. Not as big as my feelings about creativity, though. Can't wait to unlock that creativity,

considering how it's gone while it's remained locked. Okay, well, shall we do an adult thing of the week, the penultimate one? No. I don't think we've done this week. I've got an on brand adult thing for you. Okay. It's actually both of ours. It's your bedside table.

Oh, my God. My bedside table. Thank you so much. You're so welcome. A while ago we did How to Sout Your Bedside Table, which I very much went into the episode being like, how I'll be helping Tessa sort out her bedside table. Then it turned out mine was so wild. I don't even think we even discussed.

We never even got to me. We never even got to you. We don't know what mine is. You've no idea. We need to do a part two. No, no, there's no need. Fuck how to let people down. It's because I...

People need to know part two how to saw out your bedside table. Brackets, what Tess's table is. It's just because I, everything you were describing, I was just slightly ahead of you. You know, mine was wine crate that I found on the side of the side of of the road. Right. And was like, exquisite.

Right. Of course, tumbling, tumbling. I just, I knew, that's why I was so like, I've been down this road.

I know what's down there. Yeah. And you found your way. So, yeah, mine was just a mess and there was loads of things tilting on it. There was a little happy ending to the story. So part of it was as well, there was like a light that is in the shape of a robot that's my partners.

And he was like tilted backwards with all the stuff. would just tilt backwards all the time. I then got a beautiful bedside table got delivered. Unfortunately, these two women in STEM and by that I mean us. I gave test the wrong flat number. Wrong flat number. Yeah. Then I attempted to tell the DPD driver, please deliver to this neighbour,

the neighbour being actually where it was supposed to go. Yeah. Then they gave me a very small window. I thought, well, Stevie will be in. Didn't tell Stevie. Steve went out. That was the end of that. It was in cost cutter.

I thought that's going to, where it clearly was like, it'll be sent back and I was like, that's 100% going back. And we've tried our best. She got in? Motherfucker, she got it there. I got in. Adort it. It's got, and we spoke about,

sort of as a joke that you'd have like one draw, just for your passports. That's indeed what I've done. Both in there? Both in there. Fantastic. New and old. I'm not putting anything else in that drawer just to commit to the bit.

Perfect. Then, huge twist. The robot, which you said, quite rightly, bring him in and I'll sell him for you. Because I was like, I didn't say I'd sell him. I just said I would take him and you have to trust that I won't let him down. Then when it came to me being like, I think I'm going to give him away,

I looked his little face and I thought, oh my God, we've healed our relationship. It was the bedside table all along. He looks very cute and I actually verbally apologize to him for how I trashed him on the episode and now we are friends again. What's your adult thing? I guess mine is you bought me a bedside table. It was a moving house gift, a wedding gift, a wedding gift, a bird's. birthday present.

Wow. Roll it into. Halloween. Of course. Famously. Our favourite celebration. But it felt nice to do something for somebody else that I, what's it actually. Well, that can be enough.

That's enough actually. No, it just felt good to, I guess I'm just trying to fix a big part of my character thing, which is like, I'll look helpful without a car boot sales for her and be like, no, let's just get it done. That's buying one. It's the version of being like, or get a man from Task Rabbit to, fix that now and we'll just let it, you know, it's done. So it was nice to like Google exactly what it was that you wanted and not have to be like, I bet my dad can put another leg on that. I know what you mean. You know, like that, like that energy. It was like, it came from,

it was like a well-made thing. It was a shop. I texted you on the bus on the way home from doing the podcast and was like, is it this? And you were like, it's that. And I was like, it's on its way. It's on his way. And then I gave you the wrong flat number and then it goes on to Costco. But the actual, but it worked. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. amazing. I love it so much. And it makes me feel so nice every time when I go to bed and I'm like, Mamma me! Just a couple of girls. And look at that creativity. Right. Now, I'm comming straight in to say, you've done the artist's way. Yes. A book by, I want to say Julia Cameron, but I've smashed it. Have I? You got it. You smashed it. This book is something that,

when you're at a party with some creatives, and they call themselves as creatives, they refer to themselves as creatives. They're not like, working a job. They're like, I'm not creative, and they secretly are. They're like, I'm creative. Someone will say, like, oh, I'm doing my morning pages, of course. And then someone else will go like, oh, yeah, no, I did that last year.

Oh my God, it worked a charm. I haven't done it in ages. I really should. And for ages, those words would just wash over my head. I'd be like, I suppose it's just things that arty people say. And then I eventually was like, what is that? And it's one of the tasks in the book.

And so if you're listening, this is what we will, when we're referring to the artist's way, it's a book, it's a book that helps you unlock your creativity. That's the kind of like crux of it. I didn't get on with it. Tessa did. So we're going to talk a bit about that. And then also like other ways that you can unlock.

Other ways in. I think it's a very unlock yourself. Exactly. And the actual strapline of the artist's way is a spiritual path to higher creativity. Now we will be discussing that second word there. Thank you. Obviously. And it has a picture of a mountain on the top.

And Jesus. And unfortunately, Jesus. It's a course. It describes self as a course in discovering and recovering your creative self. And it was written in 1992. And that will be almost immediately apparent. It's maybe the most 90s book you'll ever come across. Yeah. The Fresh Prince of Ballet being a very current show. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Like CV is saying, like, it's something that. It's like, sure will, Julia. I'll try my best. I'll try my best. I was like, there's a lot of that in there. Like CV is saying, like, it's something that maybe you've heard people say before or that people are like, oh, yes, I've tried that. And I definitely been hearing people say it for 10 years. And then people are like, oh, you must try it.

It's a book that walks you through 12 weeks discovering and recovering your creative self. Of course. And it has, like, tasks in it and homework things and things that you're supposed to do. I will say, I have the physical one that I got from a carbure. and it felt very like, the his my sign, you know. And I will say about the artist's way,

like you being like, I had a little go, not for me. This was, when I, I did it this last summer, and that was my third attempt at it. Right.

And it does say early on, like people, on average attempt this like four or five times before they managed to be like, okay. And it starts by being like, listen, we're going to be using,

we're going to be using the word God. This is the thing. Yeah. I think I wasn't expecting, to have that so constantly in a thing about creativity. It was like, just so you know, I'm going to be using the word God. I was like, all right, why? Why?

I can't believe if you didn't close the book. Yeah, exactly. And then Julia is, to her credit, pretty quick to be like, listen, I'm going to say some stuff that feels pretty cocoa maloco. And she's, like, quite openly like, it's going to sound kooky. It's going to sound spiritual. It's going to sound stuff that you're going to think, this is an orgy. I want to leave. Yeah.

This is a religious orgy. I'm out of here. And she's like, and that's totally fine. and people do leave and then come back years later so that's totally fine. I won't be mad that you've left. And she's like that if it helps, though, try and replace it with another word like the universe and see if like that feels easier to you. So if someone had been like when I said like, oh, I found this book at the car boot sale

and it felt very like, oh, that's a bit of a sign. If someone had been like, well, that was from God, I'd be like, that's the end of our relationship. If someone had been like, the universe, I'd be like, well, exactly, let's have lunch. You know, like. Right. that's interesting because I didn't, I, I thought as well as I can't play it with the universe, but it was two, it was two at the time, and I tried it maybe 10 years ago. At that time, it was to the university for me.

But I did another book, which will be almost, I'd say the counterpoint, but it's not, it's very similar, but I did it really recently, which is Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic, which is about unlocking creativity. And I'd say 99% of it is like, oh, my father. fucking God. Yes, this is what if it. Amazing. Don't monetise it.

Having a job, don't like quit your job to write a book. Like, keep going with your job and then try and find like fun playing times around that. And don't tell anyone so it's like exciting for you. And like all these like fun little things. You're like, oh, this is a cool way looking at. And then one percent of it is like ideas are entities and they float around. And if you don't give them attention, they will leave you. You're like, right.

But, and again, she says, this is a, this is me, this is a bit of a mad bit, but like, and you're like, well, yeah, it is. And I don't agree with that. But at the same time, there's enough of other stuff. And you change as a person. So I think that the artist's way would probably suit me now because I could read, only because I've read Elizabeth Gilbert's book and was like, this weird thing about, like, you know, ideas being alive, I can gloss over it, which means I can probably gloss over where I couldn't gloss over when I was like 27. and like, I've got my thoughts and that's it, whereas now I'm a bit more calm and a bit more open-minded. That's very wonderful to hear. And to say.

And to say. I bet it felt good to say. It did. And I think it's a really great place to be vis-a-vis being open-minded. And I think if you attempt to, because there'll be like, there'll be like 10 tasks at the end of each thing. And some of them, I was like, I'm not fucking doing that. But some might be like, very interesting. And so I think going into it, accepting that like you won't like all of it.

But some of there's some interesting ideas in there, I think, was like an interesting way to go into it. So I did it last summer. I think the reason that what pushed me, apart from the finding it, was my friend Monica Heise, who's been on to talk about her amazing book, really good actually, but also how to have a dinner party. I remember, yes. Monica was like, oh, yeah, it's Coco. But she was like, but I've never not done it and not made something while I did it. And I thought, oh, that's so interesting.

Because that's the only thing you basically want it for is so that it unlock something and you make something. So if there is like a project that you want to do or like you want to return something you used to do or you want to start learning guitar from scratch or anything like that, I would really recommend it as a like companion to that project. Is it more writing or is it for everything? Because I forgot creativity.

It's absolutely for everybody and it really continues to like focus on that. Great. So there will be so many times that I guess obviously people assume the top three sort of like writing, painting, music. or something, but she really goes out of her way to keep listing so many, you know, bridge building. Right, yeah, okay. Architecture. You're like, interesting, right.

Yeah, you're right. That is creative, you know, so each chapter's more and more avant-garde stuff gets listed. So, like, any, you know, you're thinking of designing a bridge or building something or... Cutting a hedge into a swan. Cutting a hedge into a swan. Consider this book as a companion along the way. The main principles of the book, and again, like, people read it as I did and was like, not for me, not for me, are these morning pages.

So the thing about the morning pages is that Jesus suggests that every single morning you wake up and you write three full sides of a stream of consciousness with a pen. I had to... It hurt my little fingers. My hands. I had to go to just, I got a notebook.

It was actually, I started doing it the day after the Operation Mincemeat press night. Oh yes. And I bought so much merchandise because I was beside myself. There's actually a photo of you. Like, you know how people have boards behind and you get photos when you've gone to a premiere?

Well, Tess is like, almost like to the side of the camera and you're just holding loads of bits and you're crying? I'm crying. Yeah. I've got the mug. I've got the vinyl. I've got the... But what I also have is this notebook.

It's bright yellow, little A5 number. And it says half-assed ideas. And then the half is crossed out and says whole-assed ideas. And I was like, I think that's exactly the amount of like, dumb but nicely put together notebook that I need. Like, I think if it was like a more fancy, I couldn't do it. And if it was already crossed it out as well, so that you can cross your own stuff

out because the title's crossed out. It felt really perfect. And I was like, okay, great, we'll start. So I couldn't do the A4 because that is too fucking much for me, but I could do three. I was like, Jesus Christ. And I remember I started, I did one paragraph. And you're supposed to just like start and just start writing anything. Like get it all out of your system.

I just panic about what to write, obviously. And then I remember I'd written like a paragraph and I was like, that's probably enough. And I went to like check the book. And it literally said, like a paragraph is not enough. No, you have to get to the end. And then I was like, oh! And then I was like, can I just write like the word poo over and over again? And it basically says like, if you must, yes, you can just write poo for three pages.

So I was like, okay. And then after like a couple of lines of that, I was like, well, this feels stupid now that I'm being allowed to write poo. And then, you know, you're just supposed to like put everything down. And for a while it will be, your pages will literally be, this feels fucking stupid. Why am I doing this? Like, this is so dumb. I'm just, poo, poo, poo, poo, poo, just trying to get to the end of the line. oh my god how many more pages blah blah blah blah oh it's actually quite a nice day so that's

hopefully nice it has been raining for a bit and now it's sunny and i feel a bit better today than i did yesterday actually truth be told and this shade of yellow is actually quite nice and actually i've had a bit of i had a bit of a fight with jeremy from hr the other day and actually then like stuff like just starts right okay coming out and then the point is that you are never to like read it you don't read it back you don't check it you don't spell check it you're just like and done close and the idea is that you try and like get some stuff out in the morning how many times do we sit down to the podcast and then before we record, we're like, sorry, can I just get this off my chest? Oh my God, today I did like a 20 minute rant. I loved it. It wasn't relevant.

No, that's the thing. But it was a morning page. It was a morning page. Like, and I took that from you. I was glad. I was glad to take it. You know, it is, it is just like, before you begin the podcast, it's like, I'm going to bring too much of this energy to the podcast. Can I tell it to you? Great. It's done. With morning pages, though, the thing that I, so I stopped doing it after about three days. Sure. I do write a dime in the evening. But like, so I sort of like, well, I'm already doing it. And then I also was like, well, sometimes I'm bringing some energy to the party. Yeah.

And sometimes I'm like, no, I think my energy is good. I think I'm ready to start writing and I'm quite happy. Oh, God, do my fucking morning pages? Well, I've got no energy to bring to the party. And actually, all the energy that I was going to put into my good creating work, I put into my morning pages, I can't read. Well, I would say that, and Julia would answer you to say that, and she, the spirit compels me as long she's here.

How she died? again, you mustn't ask me that because I simply don't know. And I'm always committing one way or the other. That's the one thing you can't commit to. Never. No. So she would tell you that partly it's to get out, you know, get it off your system, but also it's to teach you to get to the end of three pages when you set out to do three pages

and to force you to complete something as opposed to checking like, is it good, how I done well, did I make that, you know, it's like, did you complete it? That's all we're asking you to do. A really big thing that I really took up from the, you know, from the, you know, early pages of it is that she says whatever it is you're attempting to do build the bridge write the novel uh your job is not to judge your job is to do and so she's like i want you to you know write a page of your novel and it's i don't i didn't say good page i didn't say page that's going to stay till the end i said uh write a page and so it's about like taking that pressure off you in your

you know paint a picture not a picture a picture and that like how much we constantly judge ourselves and hold ourselves back. And so this idea of like, and this is where this thing comes in about like, the ideas are flying around and you're just the vessel. I do remember that element. And I do remember she described something that I just, I remember her going, and now I'm out. And then I closed the book.

It might be this one about like how the ideas reach you. It's like through the Lord or something. Again, it's best if we say the universe, you know, through the universe. It's a nice metaphor for the real feeling, which is, for example, mapping on to what Elizabeth Gilbert is saying, okay, so I might not believe that ideas are literally things that are floating around and I catch them. And if I don't pay them attention, they leave me. But if I have an idea and I don't actually do anything with it for long enough, it does become stale and it does, or someone else picks it up. Or someone like, like, so it's really, so that does happen.

It's just like an almost like a nice anthropomorphized way. of describing the undescribable. Yeah. Wow. Wow. It's exactly that. Someone wrote the book. It's me.

Julia Cameron. This whole time. I'm sorry if she's died. Oh my God. What a reveal that would be. You look good for it. Thank you. I think it's exactly that.

It's a tangible way of trying to grasp something massive that actually, while feeling crazy, as long as you don't like, no, no, no, not for me. You'd be like, okay, I'll see, I'll listen to it. I'll, you know, her idea is like, if it's, if you're trying to, you know, write something or, or, you know, you're trying to fix a problem. And if instead of trying to like, fix it, you just like, open yourself up the idea that like there are just like radio waves going. And you're like, okay, let one of them. If I sit here at the desk, you know, one of them's

going to sort of, and I, but not just like just wait here for it. I actually like begin working on the thing. Something will the right. Trust that it will come. But what does she call it? Completely possible. That's what... Let's pick up with a lot. The muse. You're mus.

And that's saying like every artist... You know, we can be sniffy at that, but like every artist sort of through history has described the muse in some kind. When Michael Angelo was asked about creating David, he didn't say, oh, I, this is how, you know, I sketched it out and then I did this. This is how I made his small, small, small Willie. He said, I found this block of marble and David was in there. And my job was to let him out.

Yeah. And you're sort of like, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. If that's what helped you to make fans... that, great. Great. You know, if you're, if you just sort of pivot your head about being like, all right, maybe the thing is already out there and I just have to, and then it takes a bit of the pressure off you. That's probably the point of it, isn't it? I think all of these things in

they're like, Cocoa, cookie talking. It's like, oh, it's actually for this. You know, the morning pages, oh, somebody learned to write three pages when they were told to. Oh, we've taken, so maybe we can do that now when it's a creative thing. Maybe we can take the pressure off the idea of being like, ah, what is David and be like, he's in there, begging to come out, let him out. Yes. You know, like, oh. Yes, because a lot of the, And there are a lot of the similarities as well with the book Big Magic is about the idea of just sitting and waiting for your muse is so unhelpful. And actually it's like it's a, you have to work in order to beget more work. So sit down and write.

Like sit down and do it. And sometimes you won't be able to and sometimes you will be able to. But like it's you make your own opportunities. You make your own opportunities to allow yourself to be the conduit for these ideas. Exactly. Yeah. Gorgeous. Our whole thing is about progress, not perfection.

Yes. Because if you sit there waiting to be like, I can't paint until, you know, because it won't be perfect, I can't do this. If it's like, I didn't ask you to be perfect. I ask you to do it. Yes. You're like, okay. I'm bloody do it. Tough love, the Lord.

Okay. No, I like that a lot. Yeah, that sort of stuff. It's all, as well, what's nice is it's so much of it can be distilled into like, get out of your own way and just make it. But if that, if telling people that worked, then we'd all do it. So you need to be told in many different ways. Exactly. And sort of tricked, basically.

And so you are sort of along this 12 week course being sort of tricked into that of being like, I'll get out of your fucking way. And just like, just do it. Stop. Don't read it back. Don't check it. Just fucking do it. And there's a whole bit in there about something she calls shadow artists. And the idea is that there are people who are artists who are like, I'm making the thing.

It's not very good. But I'm making it. And there are people who are like, I can't or I won't or I, you know. And she's very clear about working out who in your life is an artist. and who is a shadow artist. And so then there's a whole bit about like making sure that you, if you're in a place but you want to talk about like being creative or you want to like show somebody your work or your writing or something,

you make sure that you show it to someone who is an artist. And I'm using that lowercase aim, not to mean a painter. I mean like who's like open to this stuff. This is so good. Rather than somebody in your life who you is like, if you've written a novel, don't show it to somebody who themselves is desperate to write a novel. Yes. Show it to somebody who has.

He was written a novel. So that they're able to be like, are they not bringing any jealousy, any vulnerability, any defensiveness to the table? You know, don't show it to someone that you know is desperate to be a painter who's then going to be like, oh, well, the colour's not very good. I haven't been very creative recently. I've been working on one thing, which is my live show. And then that's kind of it. And then when I moved out of London, I had a bit more perspective. And I'm like, oh, yeah, now what do I want to do?

I kind of want to do more things. Maybe I want to try this and whatever. And I've got a shadow artist friend. I see now. and I was like at Buddles that I do sometimes work with them and so I was like oh I've got this idea we could do this that would be really fun and then immediately they sent me like three links to maybe like 20 years ago 14 years ago 10 years ago

of something tangentially that could be the same genre and it was like cool like obviously I'm not going to write that film with Jason Bateman like because I'd do a different one, I see now. But rather than go like, you're a shadow artist, I was like, oh, you're not the right person to give these ideas to you because I forgot that that is what this person does.

Talks themselves out of their own projects often. I don't need that. Amazing. And so good of you that you were able to be like, okay, my fault, but I'll give it to somebody else, as opposed to what you might do if you were earlier on in your journey and what you might have done 10 years ago, be like, oh, fuck, okay, yeah, my ideas are bad.

Yeah, or like, it's already been done. It's already been done. And it's like, no, all ideas have been done. And it's like, and how... Everybody has already been done. Exactly. It's all been done, mate. There's nothing original. Imagine literally anything, the craziest thing you can.

Yeah, it's been done. Yeah. You can come up with the plot or an idea and it can be the same. And you can go, oh, that's kind of like that film or that's kind of like this. And in the old days I'd be like, oh yeah, no, of course, but my stamp on it. But then I'd be like, I don't really know what my stamp is. I don't really, I don't trust myself to be able to actually just not write the same thing. And everyone will just go, but that's that.

And then as you get older, you realize, like, you can't help but put your stamp on it. no one can help but put their own. Unless you literally copy something out word by word, you will bring your own, like, thing to it. So that is such a creativity killer looking at what has come before. Because when the books that I read, like, I could just be like, well, that's that plot again, but just with different characters and written in a different way. And I want more of it, please.

That's the thing, like, even if you were told to write, like, a kid goes to magic school. Yeah. You'd still make a totally different. There are other books like that. You'd make your version of that, you know, like. And if in your life you're like, oh shit, yeah, I'm surrounded by shadow artists. And actually, I don't know if I do know any artists.

And then it's like, okay, maybe, you know, you just need to do a little bit of more legwork and, like, find, like, a creative class or a community space or something. They're like, there might be other cool people. But then it will feel, like, so refreshing that there are people just, like, saying their crazy ideas at the buffet table after circus class or something. And then you're like, I've got a cool idea. And instead of someone being like, Jason Bateman did that, they're going to be like, sick? Yeah. What if, oh, that's a great idea or it could be this, this, this, you know, and it'll just be like, oh, okay, yeah. You know, like, oh, yeah. We say yes rather than no.

We say yes rather than no. And like, you don't realize until you put this new filter of shadow artists on something. How many people in your life are that? It doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. You just need to make a list and be like, these are, this is what, you know, these friends can't serve me in this way. And I must make sure that I protect my creativity by not showing it to these people. And I have so many people in my life that I wouldn't, but I know now not to show things to because

I, for years, interpreted their behaviour as like, my work is bad as opposed to you yourself are creatively unfulfilled and you're being mean to me because of this. Yes, exactly. Everyone just projects all the time. And yeah, just the two small other things

from the book that Oto Cohn, one was about that all creativity, whatever you're trying to do, is your creative project is climbing a mountain. And she's like, we all think of mountain climbing as just like straight up from top to bottom. Of course. Really, we are spiraling constantly round and round. She's spiraling that mountain. Oh, baby. She's like, you're walking a mountain path with a very slight incline round and round all the way to the top of it. And I was like, hmm, go on. She was like, it means that you will repeatedly see the same view, but from a slightly higher elevation.

Oh, my God. And it really made me change my thoughts on. like, you know, like if I was working on something and I got some notes on it. Every time I hand something in, I'm like, the greatest piece of work that's ever been a mission. Right, great, yeah. And then I get notes. And then I was like, throw everything away. Burn it to the ground.

I'm the worst girl in the world. And that happens every single time and every single time it feels new. Yes. And I have, like, I could not have expected this reaction. No, could anyone have predicted these feelings? And instead, now when it happens, I'm like, hello, hey pal. It looks like we've seen this view. before and remember you just keep walking and you get through it you don't need to throw yourself

off the mountain every time at this juncture and so it's an interesting thing of being like there will always be the point where you think where you go through the bit where you think this is the worst thing that anyone has ever made and then you come through it being like okay I think it's I think it's all right actually I think this is part of the mountain as part of the mountain somebody not Julia Cameron but someone else talks about this of seven steps of a creative process which is this is a great idea followed by like I'm great Followed by, oh, wait, this is really hard. Oh, this is really bad.

Oh, I'm bad. I'm the worst. Oh, no, I think I can fix it. Okay, it's different, but it's going to be okay. Oh, actually, it's good. Oh, I've forgotten the whole thing. And so each time the next one happens, you're just in that bit where you're like, I'm bad.

And you just mustn't leave it in the bit where you're like, I'm the worst. Yeah, I always forget the concept of how many other people are often, with most creative pursuits where there's so many other people who are, especially writing a book, for example. There's like so many edits, so many people, so many drafts. And actually, I always sort of feel a bit like whenever I was writing anything, when I'm writing my live show, when people have given me advice and I've taken it, I've been like, oh, it's not mine anymore because I couldn't do it myself.

So I had to listen to other people. And I suppose that is also me very much projecting because often it will be, my partner who is a male and I'm like people will just think that like my more experienced male partner wrote my show for me because when I did my first ever show on my own on my first ever work in progress preview proper preview of an hour

the first thing someone said was did your boyfriend help you because very similar to his stuff and I was like no he didn't and he hadn't seen it before and it also isn't similar to his stuff and it was just silly because it was like I took that to be like, oh, I need to make it mine to prove.

Everything I do must be the weirdest, freakest, most unique thing in the whole. It's like, no. And so I'm very much putting that on, and once I've realized that, and then I've had like friends come and you yourself as well, gave me some great notes, then I've kind of had to try to let go, but it's still hard because I still read the notes, even the best ones, and go, why didn't I see that? Like, God, I should have seen that.

Like, that's so silly that someone else has to tell me. And like, no, that is literally part of creativity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. And so every time now when you get that note and you're at that bit, you're looking at the view and the view is, here we go around again. And you're like, this is a worst town I've ever looked at. I hate it. I can't have worse. You'd be like, no, this is the same same. This is. Oh, look, what comes after Notes Town? Hey, real nice area. Improvement Town. Lovely view here where we're like, hey, things just went up again. This is a good looking show now. It's such a thorny old issue because it's so real in your sense of self and in shame. and guilt and blah, you know.

I mean, there's so, there's whole sections on guilt in this book. You know, a lot of it is like, it's so recently written after the AIDS epidemic. And so, like, that's really infiltrating a lot of the thing of being like, there's a lot of, like, one of the things is like, list is like, list your fears about being creative. And one of them is like, if I'm too creative, I will get AIDS. And you're like, gosh. Fuck me. Gosh.

Good God. Well, look, that's maybe how people felt in 1992. Well, that's the thing is, like, you have to think it's because. It's like a, that's a very specific time reference, but I think it's that thing of like, wow, we can have attached so many irrational fears. That is true. You really do. To our concept of creativity, you know?

And like, or like, if I'm too successful, like, terrible things will happen to my family, you know, or like, not in like a, you know, the mob will come for me because I'm too powerful in the art world. As in like, you know, the balance will, I'm not, you know, sort of the shoe will drop if I get to do this thing or like, proper toil and work is working down the mind. Oh, but that's like, you can feel that now. You know, like, I feel that now, like, that I'm doing okay. in my career for the first time that I'm not,

there's not, I think this is the first time where I'm like, I do feel like things are going okay. Yeah. And I'm absolutely beside myself with like horror at my own days. I'm like, well, I need to be much more unhappy. I need to work so much.

This is too nice. I don't, and then you, he's not doing that. Like, this is ridiculous. This is what people say. And then you go, no one feels like that.

You're like, oh no, I'm feeling like that. I'm feeling like that. And maybe that's a human universal. And late stage capitalism, baby. It told us you just got to work and work and work and you should always be pushing and you can't ever have a nice time. And how crazy is that? Like your thought was, my day was too nice.

This isn't allowed. It was too nice. Very relatable content there for us after the last episode. No more relatable than if I become, if I paint this picture well, I'll get AIDS, you know? Sure. But they come from the same place, which is like we are mad. Your brain is just putting too much on something. Because we've decided that we mustn't be allowed.

to be creative because, you know. Yeah. And then she writes this beautiful thing about like, you know, the people might be all like, and someone from a very religious background being like, oh, to be creative is to be flippant when like to work. That's what God's thing is. You're like, look what God made.

Like, he made, he decided that every snowflake should be different. And have an exquisite beautiful pattern. And you don't think that God that made snowflakes doesn't want you to make nice pictures. Of course he wants you to dance and paint and do music and stuff. Look at the state of the world he made. It's gorgeous. Yeah. Maybe I do believe in God.

Actually, I've got a copy. I'm going to reread it. Let me know how you get on. My friend Julia Cameron. Yeah. Who is also me. Yeah. But also Jimmy Cameron.

A bit of fun. I hope that was helpful. And see you next time. See you next week. Oh no. It's got to cry. Bye. Bye.