Nobody Panic - How to Write That Novel - with Caroline O'Donoghue

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

To see you through the summer, Tessa talks to author Caroline O'Donoghue about how to write that novel you know you've got inside you. If it helps, please dedicate your first novel to us.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hi, it's Tazza. This is just a very quick note to say I am doing my show at the Soho Theatre this week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, the 16th, 17th and 18th of July. If you fancied coming down, I'd absolutely

love to have you. I'm sorry the tickets are so expensive, but you can use the code, which is for life, the number four and the word L-Y-F. I didn't pick the code, but I also didn't say no when they gave it to me. So which is for life gives you a discount. And yeah, thank you so much. I'd love to have you. Okay, bye. Here comes the podcast. Study and welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Nobody Do Panic. Hello, I'm Lisa. And Stevie in absentia.

Is that great? Why are you looking at me for approval in Latin? I don't know. I lost confidence in it. I liked it in absentia. Yes. And today's representative, representing Stevie, is my great friend, Caroline. Excuse me.

I think it's O'Donoghue. It is. Okay, great. How long have you? we've been friends for? Well, I've never said it out loud before. Genuinely. Wow. It's got a G in it and I didn't know if you had an Irish like a strong letter or something. Do you want to try it again?

More confidently this time. My great friend, Caroline O'Donoghue. Fantastic, thank you. Author, poet. Not a poet. Categorically, not a poet. Femfetal. A podcaster. She makes sentimental garbage. Yes, I do.

Is the name of her fantastic podcast. And the Dumb Women or. No, no, School for Done Women is on hiatus, but we'll be coming back at some point. Oh, lovely. And the School for Done Women. And I've roped her in. I've roped her in for some holiday cover. Yeah, very last minute as well.

It's quite exciting. Yeah, well, no, you knew you were doing it. We were just keeping, but today, and then I've just texted her a while ago and was like, do we do it now? Yeah. So the energy is high, and we're feeling good. What I wanted to, we're going to do as a topic, is something that so many people write in about, and I always think, I don't even know where to begin with this question.

It's about how to write a book, how to write a novel, how to, I do believe that everybody has got one inside them. Do you truly believe that? I truly believe it. And what do you think you mean when you say that, when you believe that? Because it's like, it's one of those sentences that we all say, but what does it actually mean? To me it means that if you have the right combination of snacks and drink at a party and people have mellowed out, they will tell you their idea for their novel. Sure.

Especially if you ask for it. But I think, no, I've never, I don't, I think everybody has something they think about on the bus or on long journeys or on plane rides. Yeah. And they're either like a good app idea. Yeah. Or a movie or a novel.

And I think most people have got them all. Yeah. I think that's, that's pretty correct. My dad has a great one actually. Which one? An app? A novel idea. A novel, yeah.

And since I've become a novelist in the novel. last few years. He likes to tell me all of his novel ideas in detail. Of course. And he always ends it with like, you can have that now. Oh yes. That's yours now. As if like the reason that novelists don't write more novels is because they have so few ideas. Yes. Yes. What are his good ideas? The good idea. The one that's um, he's, he has a lot of, um, ones that sort of pass him by for a season and then he gets bored of them. But the one he's really into is, um, a man who runs a school for the deaf. Um, right. Yes, he runs a school for the deaf. And the school is going out of business and

he, because he can lip read he is able to like find a way into robbing a bank or something because he basically is able to witness people and learn secret codes and things and he robs a bank for And is he dead? No, he just can

lip read. Right, okay. And basically he uses a superpower in order to get, it's like a Robin Hood story but with deaf people. That's not fantastic. I think it's quite good actually. Tell him you should carry on with his good idea. Well, I said I was like this is pure my dad now. He's like, oh, you should research that and do that. He's like, no, I'm too lazy and the deaf are very clicky.

Yeah, probably. If he himself is not deaf, hard to come in on the deaf community and be like, I've made something for you. Yeah, I've made a Robin Hood story about a non-deaf man who saves you all. Yeah, who saves you all. A non-deaf man is here to save the day. And everyone would be like, no, thank you.

Yeah. No. Yeah, well, he should write it. I think so. But once again, quite a lazy. man. Yes, I think that's it. I just think, like, write a novel or write your novel, as opposed to just a novel,

is always on those lists of, like, things to do, you know? It's a very interesting one, isn't it? Because I think it definitely, when someone says they would say, I want to write a book, they generally, they mean implicitly novel, because that's the thing, that's the kind of the format of book we all grow up loving and reading, don't we? I don't think most people grow up dreaming of writing a memoir, unless they've had a truly amazing life. Yes, yes.

I know I think people want to write memoirs. Yeah. I think people love a memoir. They definitely a trend. I think in terms of like when you're a kid and you're like, oh God, I've gotten the star on my essay for school. Yeah. Maybe I'll be a J.K. Rowling. Maybe I'll be a thing.

I think that's the first place your brain goes. Yes, yes, yes. No one in age eight is like, I'm going to write a fantastic memoir. Although maybe they... I actually think I probably did. Yeah, I said it. I have said that. Yeah, as of high, actually.

I think it's the same instinct that makes you write a will as a child Oh my gosh Of course I wrote a will Constantly revising my will Constantly rewriting a will Yeah I don't know where that obsession

came from Yeah I think people just loved Why it's such a macabre thing to do But everybody did it I think it's the idea That you can write a document That then causes drama

Yeah yeah yeah That you're just like People are gonna fight And like I remember It was like the same year I learned fractions For the same year I started chronically writing

Wills and like dividing up my fortune between my siblings in vastly unequal ways depending on how I feel felt about each sibling. Oh wow, okay, nice. I think for me it was about how you had these few possessions and it was like who will have them

who will have my great treasure. Yes, and also the fantasy of suddenly inheriting from the person you've ever managed. Yeah, I think it was the discovery that Wills existed. Yes. The greatest narrative device of all time, surely. It's fantastic.

I mean, it's so thrilling. Oh, my God. What great, like, what a more exciting room can you think of than, like, everybody gathered in black, the whole family, the sum here he is to read the will, drama ensues. I think the rule is, and we should probably get on to our adult thing. Sure, oh, sorry, yes, all right, Stevie.

All right, long-term fan of the pod. But I think the rule is, if you, great to open your novel with an inheritance, lazy to end your novel with an inheritance. Who ends it with an inheritance? I've just read a book where that happens. where it's like, oh, they're all having loads of trouble, what possibly will go, how will they get out of this one?

And then it was like, and she inherited a large diamond. No. Yeah. Oh, that is shitty. It's a bit, it's not. So if your novel ends there, shitty. That's shitty behavior. But it doesn't have to be a novel.

I think it's a book. It's a memoir. It's a great work of fiction. It's the history of the trains. It's sheep rearing and how to do it. It's whatever you think you'd like to put down on paper. Yeah. I truly do meet so many people.

And particularly, this is my next one, but Ed. Ed, write a goddamn book who, you know, says, oh, this is what I'm going to do this year. I'm finally going to write my novel. And then around the year comes again. And it makes people feel dreadful about themselves, I think. I think because a lot of people have gotten a little bit, like, have you gotten a few thousand words or a few chapters into something,

and then they've run out of steam, and then they just feel dreadful about themselves. And they see that as proof that they shouldn't do this, and they weren't, like, hand-picked by the gods to write a book. And I think that's a really. damaging way to think about it and something you can think your way out of as well. It's very much, if I've done it, anyone can, you know? Yes. Yes. Oh shit. We should just say your credentials.

This is Caroline who has written an actual book. It's physical. I mean, I haven't got one here, but I actually own two copies of the thing. And it's called Promising Young Women. And I don't just say it to two smoke up or us. It's fantastic. But also, it's there. I don't know anybody else who's written a whole story start to finish. And my second book is, it's weird with book writing as a career because people are like, oh, you've written one book when actually these things take a long time. So it's like, I've written my second novel, which will be out next year. That's finished now. But that I actually had to write twice because I basically deleted half of it. On purpose? Yeah, on purpose. And then start it again. And now I am halfway through a young adult series that will be out in 2021. Oh shit. So your second novel

It's unrelated to your YA series. Okay, so what's the second novel about? So my first novel was Promising Young Women and that was kind of a sort of a black comedy about workplace relations and sex and relationships

and how it works interplays of work. And my second novel, which is next year, that will be like a murder mystery set in Ireland. Yeah, it's a real hoot fan. And so there's a third novel, no, now. and then second novel comes out and then. And then it will be the young adult novels. Perfect.

Which are like a supernatural thriller. I spent about 45 minutes explaining the plot. Not just the plot, but the system of magic that exists within the world to my boyfriend the other day. And he said, oh, it's Tarot Jamange. And I was like, yes. Oh. That's exactly what it is.

It's Tarot Jamangy. Great. I mean, that is a, no one's ever said those two words together before. Oh, God. But that is an event an exact. an exact Venn diagram of my interests. I once spent a whole year just telling people how much I wanted to watch

the film Jumanji and Hook. And someone was like, just watch it then. And I was like, no. They were like, what an achievable dream. Just sit down and watch it. Both on Netflix, I believe. Yeah, it's so easy to, I mean, but it's so easy to do.

Not hard to come across. Not hard to find such an easy dream for me, but I just could not stop thinking about it. And then came home once, came home on New Year's Day. Everyone was in the living room watching Hook. And I almost cried. Because I was like, I've been waiting to watch this film

for so long. And I wanted the conditions to be right, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then we watched Jimangi. And I've seen recently the new Jamanji. I was very cross about it at the time when they first said they were going to do it. I was like, no, don't touch it.

It's perfect. Get it hands off here. I actually think it's fantastic. Really? Isn't it the rock in that? Yes. Well, he elevates everything he touches. He what, does it?

He elevates everything. Yes, he genuinely is wonderful. is a really beautiful, it's not a remake in any way, it just exists within the same world-ish, but it's just a really beautiful, it's really fun. Because for me, the appeal of Jumanji originally was just how that game looked and how it was set designed and how...

The board opening up. The board, yeah, and how heavy it was. The drums? And the thing in the middle and the counters were these heavy things. And like, every time you opened a board game, you wanted to feel like that, and it never did. It always felt so flimsy.

Yeah. You spent your childhood just like, wardrobes didn't open at the back. I know. Board games didn't happen. You touched things, you couldn't levitate anything with your mind like Matilda. And boy did I give that a go.

But you couldn't do any of the stuff that it was sort of promised you'd be able to do. Anyway. Oh yes. Adopt thing. Do you want to go first? What's your adult thing? Well, do you know what?

So I have been auditioning for this role for a long time now because basically every couple of weeks I send you a long voice note of what my adult thing is. I really enjoy them. Thank you. You rarely respond. Yes, well that's the way of things. But apparently that doesn't discourage me at all because I'm something like, walking around conference centre is sending you three minute long. I love them. But so this one happened actually a few weeks ago. Yes. So it's a little bit old. Please. But I, at the moment it happened, I was like, I cannot wait to tell Tessa. I'm so excited. Right. So I'm going to keep it. some of the details

of the story vague because I don't want some of the main players to be identified. Ooh. She's gossiping. Basically, I was in a situation recently where I was

hosting like an event like a summit of writers and there were several people on the panel, many of whom I had worked with before or knew socially or whatever

and there was one person who was much older than me, much more respected than I am, a real, a real titan. A real titan. Also a man, you know, so that's a dynamic. And I was a little bit nervous going into it because like this person, I don't, I don't know him and like if you're doing these things and I do a lot of events and a lot of seminar

type of things and a lot of workshops. And if there's, there's always that kind of question mark in your brain. It's like, oh, I don't really know what kind of energy that person's going to bring and how, like, you know, you've done these things before, how one person's weird energy can kind of throw off the whole room. So I went up to him beforehand and I gave him, I was showing on my notes and I was like, okay, just want to let you know what I'll be talking about, what I'll be asking you, you know, all this kind of stuff just to see where his gauge was. And he, I can only describe it as sort of throwing his toys at the pram and sort of being like,

I don't even know why I'm here. He basically kind of said he didn't really have any respect for the event that we were doing, what we were talking about. He was like basically knew that he was kind of the most had the most pulling power in the room in terms of the names that were involved. And I was getting,

I could feel the anxiety like rising in my chest and I was like, fuck this is gonna like be, I'm gonna be worrying about this person for the whole thing and whether I'm gonna have to pander to him and he's obviously very annoyed or he's whatever, not into this. And I don't know what to do

but I just, I don't know what came over me to have. I'm sorry, this is a real saga now. I'm so involved. I just, this is the best thing I've ever done. Oh my God. I folded my notebook and I placed it on the desk in front of me and put my hands over it. And they just said, you know, if you have complete contempt for this, I'm more than happy for you to sit it out. And what did he say?

He said, oh, no, don't worry, don't worry. I just, oh, I'm just joking. I'm just, he basically backtracked completely. And then he was an angel for the rest of the time and was a beautiful, beautifully, beautifully, behavior person. And it was just, it was one of the biggest life lessons I've learned in my, in the last many years of like, oh, you just have to like set boundaries for people and they will stick to those boundaries. Yeah. And I've never, I've never like had a moment in my life where I've been like, all right, like Goliath, I will be David. Wow. And it was such a small

moment, but I've been like congratulating myself for like two weeks. Oh my God, I'm so excited for you. That's a really wonderful adult thing. Thank you. It felt like a true ever thing. Yeah, that's wonderful. Thanks. What's your thing? Oh, I'm reeling.

I felt like I was definitely following a small Tessa voice in my head. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It does take practice, doesn't it? And to be like ready on the, to not to be like, not just be like, oh, you do need my voice in your head to do it. But like, you do need something there that's like, your instinct is be like,

okay, you be in charge. Do you want to do the, you do it? You know, like, I'll... Or like your instinct to be like, oh, we can just talk to the manager and maybe she can maybe perhaps get you an extra glass of water. Yeah, what could we do to make you happy?

Yeah, exactly. You've got to really overcome that initial instinct which is to like you back down. Yeah. And you make this space for the other person okay. And you've got to really swallow that and be like, no, actually, we're doing things my way. Yeah.

But you're like the most amazing person at that I've ever known. Oh. I was like, wow. That's because I am always one step away from getting involved in a fight. Really? Yeah. Like if anybody's having a fight near me. Proper like T-bird.

I'm like, yeah, I'm cruising for a bruising. I'm just like, I'm here. I'm rolling, I'm rolling. I would just be circling the car part looking for fights to take part. Yeah, with your switchblade, just flicking it out and picking back again. Yeah. So anytime anyone comes up to me, I'm like, yes, some confrontation. But like you were in a workplace scenario, which you have given the respect to the other person.

Yeah. very hard then to, you know, assert your authority. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, what's your thing? Mine is, somebody told me about this last week, and I'm so sorry, whoever you were, well done.

I can't remember who it was. That if you, I recently, I just got the train to McElfield and from Houston last week, and it was very expensive. And I thought, oh, this is ridiculous. Trains. Trains. I was like, this is outrageously expensive. off-peak or advanced,

whatever the most expensive one. It was my own fault. Anyway, but I had to get there. And so what I did was something called jumping or ticket cutting. Yes, split-faring. Split-faring. Yes, I've done this once.

Go ahead for it. Yeah, it was magical. It was the most thrilling moment of my life. So I stood. But they basically break your journey into many separate journeys, but you never leave your seat. Yeah.

So I just, I'm stood at the ticket machine in Houston Station, and I put in London to Stoke on Trent, which is the first off in it, and I bought that ticket, and then it said, get a ticket from another station, so I put in Stoke-on-Trent to Macclesfield, and I bought that ticket.

Yeah. And what were your savings? Oh my God, nearly 100 pounds. Yeah. Oh, call me Eleanor Ferranti, because you're my brilliant friend. Who's Ilena Ferranti? She wrote a book, Call My Brilliant Friend.

Oh, it's good stuff. It's good stuff. I'm doing literary references. It was, and I was just beside myself. Yeah. So if you ever find yourself in the a train station thinking, I can't afford this train fare. See if you can do that.

Stood there in the train station. Did you feel like a proper, like con artist? I just felt fantastic. Did you feel like Dmitri in the film Anastasia? When he does what bit? Is he a con artist? Yeah, he's like, you know, always like forging papers to get all on the wrong train. And there has to be in red ink and then blue ink.

One of my first great loves. Oh, fantastic. So in love with him clearly. I mean, I can see him in my mind. He's got these rolled up shirt sleeves that would influence my, influence my satorial choice in men for many years. but I didn't know who had gone after it. I've obviously forgotten his job.

Yeah. Dmitri. Anyway, on the subject of my brilliant friend, books, Dmitri, the works of fiction. Let us segue seamlessly into literature. I decided I could write a book many years ago when I read a book called The Bees, which I think, in retrospect,

might be better than I give it credit for, or not. I mean, I did enjoy it. I read a few free samples of that book on the pool at the time, and I thought I'd be shy. imagine it's the film it's the hunger games but with bees yes a lot of very detailed biological information about bees

it's a coming of age story of a bee yeah but it's very like oh I I'm only supposed to be this one thing according to bee society but I dream of being this other kind of bee it's basically ants slash a bug's life isn't it yeah but more intense

and some of it is very interesting and I learn a lot about bees Oh, sure. Great learning by the bees. I didn't know the bees did that. But then sometimes there would be some spiders and they'd get involved and the spiders could see into the future.

And I'd be like, okay. So I don't know how much of this is accurate nature. Yeah. Anyway, I threw the bees into the pool. I read it on holiday. I was so cross when I finished it. It ended with getting a diamond as an inheritance. And the bee got out of there

and I threw the book into the pool. And I just thought, forget it. Forget it. I'm going to write my own. And then, of course, I never have. I just think about it on the bus sometimes. So for everybody who has ever read a crap book and thought,

I can do better, or anybody who has a story inside them, or anybody who wants to write about the history of the trains, or a B story, whatever you've got inside you, Caroline. Yes. Over to you. Over to you. I think what's actually really interesting about what you just said

is that the importance of bad literature in your decision to write a book. Because I think many people, when you ask people, their inspiration for why they wrote something, they'll talk about, like, the greats. They talk about like, you know, Tony Morrison or Scott Fitzgerald or all these people they read who are like, oh my God, the art is amazing. I wish to live in service of this. But I think bad books have a huge part in being a creative because it's like, oh, that moment of like, well, if this person can get a deal from a publisher, then why not me? I think that should

be the central to any I'm about to go write a book thing is why not me, you know? Why not me? Yeah. So my, my journey. into book writing was very, I was working at the pool for a while and this thing happened, which actually happens more frequently than you would think, which is a editor, DM me on Twitter saying, I'm interested in fiction from new writers, what do you got? Kind of thing, are you interested? Do you want to come in for a meeting? Yeah.

And when that happened, I was like, I have been selected by, I've been chosen by the ads. I am the bee. I am the bee. I am Katnais Evadeen. I volunteer into the arena I go. It's very that moment. And I think many people characterize getting into that book world by like, oh, you just need that in and that's the thing. But actually, like, you'd be surprised.

There are hundreds of editors sending DMs to similar people all the time just casting out lines to see, do you know what, she seems interesting or whatever. It's no guarantee that they'll buy a book off you. No guarantee that anything will happen really. But what it did for me was it gave me that sort of weird shot in the arm because I was always one of those people who was like, oh, maybe someday when I'm in my book. late 30s, 40s, one of my children have left home. Yes, yes, yes. When, when, when this is, they'll have this like opening of time that will just happen. Or I'll be on like, I always thought my head.

Oh, maybe someday I'll be on maternity leave and write a book. Like, yeah, the most condescending thing to authors ever, or to mothers ever. Mothers and authors. Mother's and both. But, yeah, so I kind of, I had this moment where it was like, and coincidentally, for health reasons, I wasn't drinking at the time. and I was also 25. And like when you've stopped drinking and you're 25, a huge part of your social capital calendar just like disappears.

Yeah. And I was like, well, fuck it. I'm not, I'm this young. I'm not planning a wedding. I don't have any kids. I'm like I can afford to get up really early in the morning because I'm going to bed quite early anyway because I'm not out. From the boring tea total loser.

Boring teetotal. Yeah, because about six months. Yeah, I'd stop drinking. I was like, it has this really crystallizing moment where I was like, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to do it. And then it just became this thing of like just writing, getting up before work every morning and bashing out 800,000 words and just going on like that until I had a book and then I sold it.

And I think I tell people this story and that's always the moment where their face starts to crumble because they think the bit about getting up early in the morning, the bit about not drinking, the bit about this. and for which I have like two pieces of advice which is number one like it's no different like going to the gym or going to a run or whatever people think that it's like this

magnificently difficult thing but actually once you get into the routine of it it just becomes part of the thing that you do you know I could and I could never go to the gym every morning but enough people do it that it's like it's perfectly eminently possible it's no different to going to the gym and the second thing is that I realized about halfway into this

that I was actually the happy piece I'd ever been in my life. Like, I had no social life. I was only seeing my boyfriend and my colleagues and occasionally I'd grab someone for coffee. And I was so unbelievably satisfied because I felt like I was going into work every single morning and I was already like culturally and like personally in the black. Like, do you to mean? It was like any work I do on top of it today is just extra. Do you know what I mean? I've already serviced something that I think is really important. And I honestly, I think I've never been a better colleague. I've never been a better employee than during that like kind of year of my life. Because people always characterize

the writing of a book as being this painful experience. And it was actually, first of all, if you want to do it, unless you really enjoy doing it, like don't. Like, just fucking don't. Like, I think that's the first question you should really ask yourself if you're like, either someone says to you, you should write a book or maybe you think you should write a book. because like, do you really like writing a lot by yourself? Because it's a lonely, it's a lonely job, and you have to really enjoy it. And I think people imbibe that sort of,

writer-on-wee thing of like, you know, dirty pajama person with like, you know, just sort of hating their work and just always drinking and always finding a way out of it. And I think that class of person exists, but I also think they've unfairly characterized writing as like a bad thing to do when it's like really fun and really great.

Yeah. Yeah. It has got a terrible rap. Yeah. And that it's supposed to like, and also. So for example, okay, let me give you an example. So when the book that I, talking about the great literature that inspires us, right? The book I made the huge effect of me as a young person was Tony Morrison. I studied Tony Morrison when I studied English for in university. And I thought like, oh my God, this writing has broken open my world. Tony Morrison is widely known as one of the greatest living.

novelists of the 20th and 20% She wrote a lot of books but famously she wrote Beloved and Song of Solomon and what Tony Morrison did was she gave a language to like racism and slavery and stuff that was surrounded in magic so like for example

Beloved is about a woman who like murders her baby but then that baby comes back as a ghost as a grown woman and lives in her house and haunts the house and it's like it's the thing where it's like this is kind of tangent but like she because slavery is such a terrible mind-breaking thing to even think about a person owning another person. She creates this whole language and magicalness around it that was like, gave people a space

to talk about the hideousness of it by making it literally magic. And when I read that book, I was like, that's the kind of books I want to write. And I think people have moments with that with lots of great, great writers who are untouchable plints so high far in the sky. that gets them very, very discouraged. And I think what you have to remember then is that like, it is not your responsibility to recreate the books that you love. Yes.

There is like, there is a specific voice that is just yours, that you are cosmically appointed to write the kind of book that you're supposed to write. And for me, that tends to be young women having problems. There are jokes, there are issues. Sometimes there's a little bit of magic in there. and, you know, and people bring them on holidays and I like that. And I'm never going to be the Tony Morrison. But the thing is, is that, like, you have to let yourself,

you have not be too guided by your own influences, whether that means writing exactly like them or writing a book that you think is important, like important in inverted commas, you know? Mm-hmm. Like I always make the kind of, I think, sorry, I'm talking a lot. No, please. Don't ever apologise for talking. You know Bakeoff?

The Great British? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Do you know how like when they set them a challenge at the beginning and it's like, so they go around for their initial challenge and they go like, oh George, what are you up to? And he's like, well, I'm, you know, my grandmother had a raspberry patch when I was growing up. So I've used raspberry jam and there's some ginger in here because, you know, my, where I'm from grows the best ginger in the world. They tell you all this bits and their influences and their history and that's going to be their batter

and that's going to be their flavoring and that's their big mix. That's the influences they're drawing from. And then like Paul Hollywood is always like, all right, well, make it work or whatever. Basically, it's like, okay, like great, great stuff and then make it work. And so that's what influences are. That's like getting all that cake batter together and all that bits and pieces into the big bowl of the stuff. Okay. But then afterwards you've got to get that batter and just like put it into sponge tins.

make sure it bakes all the way through. Yes. And that for me, in this extended metaphor, is just story maths. Okay. The sort of the things have to make, you can't just like, you know, decide to yourself that you really want to be the next Tony Morrison and then just sort of sloppily try a few chapters of trying to write like Tony Morrison and then it all falls apart like wet cake. Yes. You have to find exactly how it is that you write. and have a, you can't just, like, you have to have like a whole arc as in like beginning,

a middle and end, a protagonist, a friend, an ally, a person who's an enemy. Like, you have to, like, have very structured acts. So the cake actually makes sense. Yes. I think people over, over exaggerate their influences and what they feel like, oh, I want to write a book about, you know, the Irish Diaspora and what it means to be a Catholic kind of thing. It's like, that's not actually a story idea. That's just an influence.

That's just something. of the cake batter. You need to get in the tins. Yes. I'm making sense. I feel like you're very confused. No. No, sorry, this is my face where I'm just grasping a good idea and I'm getting the visuals and I'm on board. So you're saying like, it's not enough just to be like, I want to write a sort of fantasy war epic, but with dogs. You're like, fun, but if you don't go and find the cake tin and be like, but who is the dog? Who is the hero? Who's the bad guy? What's the story? Why are they? Who are they fighting? Yes. What do you mean?

their dogs. Yeah. How does war work in this world? Why are they dogs and not cats? Why this? Yeah. What does that bring to the story? Where is this set?

What are the rules? Yeah. Like, what is the, what does everyone do for money in the world? Like, who builds the armor? Yeah. You're all great questions. Great.

Very excited about the dog book. I'm me too. I'm like, yes, please. And if you don't do that part of the, and do you think that making the batter, do you think we find it? That absorbs people. Yeah, do you think we find it so hard to go and get your caked in because it's sort of so exciting

to keep looking at your batter. Yes. Because the batter remains a full of all these fantastic, brilliant ideas and cool things and maybe these tiny few set pieces that you've seen in your mind or bits that you can imagine, you know, this big dog battle or whatever. Yeah. And then that bit is all exciting to think about, but actually going to get the cakedin is hard work now.

Yes. And now also, once you have put it in that cakedin, you have to accept. what the cake might look like when it comes out of the oven. Completely. And also, the cake tin is also a stand in for, as you can tell, I thought about it as a lot in my own head, but I've never spoken about it. I'm like, I'm thrilled.

So now that I'm talking about it, I'm like, this is mental. Okay. Yeah. I think as well, because people are so convinced that their idea has to be original. Yeah. They think that the tins, they don't need a tin.

Oh, yeah. They'll just line up a bit of parchment and scrunch that up and pour the cake batter into that, and they'll make these weird. weird spider shapes kind of thing. It's like actually formula, stories have formulas for reasons.

Yeah. And there's a reason why, like sometimes, you know, when you're watching a film and you started to get like uncomfortable or itchy and you're just like,

kind of, don't you? It's not really, you're not really into it. It's because someone has missed a beat on a very, on the plot line, right? It's like they've missed a step on the stairs and you're like,

oh, what, you know? Like there's a, we're programmed to, you know, you're an anthropologist. Like we've been telling us forever and they're programmed to hit certain, beats and some people think I think that like oh no I'm gonna like do a first person epic where they never leave their room yeah the thing and they'll just live in their memories and they're like

you want to be the best writer in the world like before you even hit that yeah you yeah I do two things on that that like one is and I think we'll get onto story maths I think that's such a fascinating idea and I want to hear your math lecture um but um I had a great quote that was um learning your craft won't take away from your genius. Yes. So I think it's so whatever it is that you decide to do building a wall, writing a film, writing a book, creating anything. It's so easy to be like, forget it, I don't need the rulebook. I'm better than that. I'm making something new. I'm making art.

As well, it's the way that we talk about artists as well. It's like when we watch like an E True Hollywood story about someone or whatever, people still watch those. Who? You know, ETru Hollywood stories where they were like hour long epics about like, and here's how Sandra Bullock ripped up the rulebook for actresses everywhere. It's all about like that language of ripping up rulebooks is something we love hearing about. We love it.

Yeah. It's just, it's like crack. And we all think that it's everyone's job to rip up the rule book every time. It's not. Sometimes it's your job to follow the rules. Yeah. And like, you know, it's that thing about Picasso, about how he had his like years as being a very conventionally talented artist and drawing people in perfect proportion and all that.

And then he did his mental stuff. But I think people use stories like Picasso as being like, oh like they use it as a defense of ripping up the rulebook and not as a defense of learning all the rules first. Yeah, you're absolutely right. When we look at the great masters and we're like, look what all these people, these crazy things that people did. Without doubt, every one of those people,

even if you didn't, and we have got to see some of Picasso's early sketches when he's like 11 and it's like the most beautiful thing anyone's ever drawn. But like sometimes we don't get to get to see the back catalogue, but 100% what's in the back catalogue is like painstakingly learning. anatomical drawings of birds. Getting it completely right. So when you want to fuck about, you know exactly what you're doing.

Yeah. And also you're in a position to defend your own fucking about. Yes. You know? Yeah. It's like free jazz or whatever. Yeah.

If you never played an instrument, you're like, they're just fucking about. I'll get that a go. But everyone's going to be like, get off the stage. Like, nobody wants this. You do have to know how to play the flute before you can just like toot,

toot about on jazz flute, you know? Totally. Yeah, absolutely. So, let's... Sorry, I feel like I'm jumping the gun hugely. Don't jump the gun. There's not. There's no gun.

There's no gun. The gun is mine. The gun's yours to jump as you wish. Where do you think you jump to? I don't know. I feel like I'm already talking about like, oh, your ideas about stories are wrong or whatever. No, no, no. I think you're in completely right place.

So story maths. Tell us what it is that you know now on the other side from where you began. Or what are your story, what's your story math? Yeah. What are you passing on to the young page? Young page. Please, Master. What story math is there to learn?

Well, I think the simplest, when I'm, I started, I was familiar because I studied English at university of something called the hero's journey, which I think you're probably familiar with too, but if... Only from your tarot work. Really? No, I do know the heroes. So for people who don't know, the hero's journey is this kind of theory that all stories, whether it's the Bible or Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or Star Wars or whatever, they all

follow the same pattern, which you can draw. But if you look up on Google images, there's a circle. At the top of the circle, it's like, our hero leaves home. And then it's like, his next thing is like,

he meets a wise man. And his next thing is, you know, a first conflict. And then after the first conflict becomes the first ally. And then after the first ally becomes the big conflict.

And then it's like this whole thing. And I'm not describing it perfectly. But it's broken up into 12 segments. And it's very like, these are the beats that you, hit in a traditional story. It's like, you know, Harry Potter meeting Hagrid,

the Euro Wizard Harry thing. That's what's called the CTA or the call to adventure. Call to Adventure. Yeah. The CTA. The CTA. Write it down, everyone. Yeah.

Honestly, Google this. It's a very, there's lots of interesting talks about it all over the internet. But when I, so I was familiar with this. And so when I had by writing my first book, I just got a big sketchpad and I drew a huge circle in Sharpie. And I did all the 12 segments.

and I wrote all the what the segments were, I called adventure, all that kind of stuff, cult of adventure, meeting the elder, all this. And I wrote them all in pencil, and then in pen, I put my story beat next to it. So I was like, my character Jane, you know, Jane gets a promotion, that's a cult of adventure or something. And I would write that in.

And then, so that's why you need to sort of plan your novel in advance, or it's always better to plan your novel to advance, because you're, if you can plot those things in this very structured way, what that structure then allows you to do is to have fun in getting there. If you're not worrying about like, oh, when the next character's going to come in

or when the next plot point is going to fall, if you know when that's coming, you can just have, spend this lovely time being like, okay, this character's job is to like make her feel, make her doubt her self-esteem or make her doubt herself worth. But how does that manifest?

And how, one of the interesting ways we can show that and what do and don't these women share with each other. So what you start with is a very formulaic thing is like, this character makes my character doubt yourself, but once you drill down

into the why, it gets so much richer and you can do anything with that, you know? Yeah. I think that's my structure it allows for so much creativity, you know? I think something that I think puts people off when you read, when you hear

the sort of story maths is it's always, you know, young boy leaves the village to fight the dragon. And it's like, why does he leave? First of it, so the first part is always like, understanding that you have to believe the choices that your character has made. Because as soon as you make that face

watching any movie, as soon as you're like, they wouldn't do that. Like, that's why? As soon as you start doubting the world, the choices they've made, then everything is lost. There's no point watching this thing anymore. You're like, okay, the third youngest brother,

he needs to win the hand of the princess so he has to kill the dragon. We're like, we understand it, we believe it, off he goes. And that's always how they teach it in these, you know, the call to adventure, the thing. And I think if you want to write a story that's just, that's so much more simpler than that

and is not a fighting dragon epic, it's so hard to take those big, what feel like epic rules, meeting the elder, the night of, the dark night of the soul. Yes, yes. It feels very hard to put, if you write quite,

you've written quite a fun little sort of adventure romp or that's the sort of story you want to tell. It's hard to take the language of this sprawling epic and translate it onto the rom-com or whatever, even though they are the same rules. And so I think it does a bit of a disservice if you're, as soon as you start reading

the call to adventure, which I do think is very cool, you know, The Dark Night of the Soul, all of this sort of stuff, you're like, oh, that doesn't apply to me because I'm writing something quite fun and lighthearted, but it does, it applies to everybody, it has to apply. Yeah.

Them's the rules. Them's the rules. Like I saw, I remember saying this fantastic, play once called The Animal and Children took to the streets and it was all sort of puppetry and theatre and music and it was so brilliant and then right at the end

there's sort of a narrator voice and I don't think anyone's speaking in it and there's all sort of magic bits and it's really cute. Anyway right at the end the hero who we've been following can go one path and like go back and get the girl or go off

and just go to go leave the town and start his life for fresh and the narrator's like, where should he go? And everyone's like, go get the girl, go back for her. Like, she said she loved you. Everyone's like so invested. And then they're like, of course not. That's a happy ending.

And that's not what life is really like. And then he leaves and he goes the, it goes to nothing. And even though you're like, yeah, you're right, that is what life is like, we don't always get a happy ending. We don't always get the girl. You leave being like furious. Totally. You are furious.

Everyone left that theater being like, I can't speak. I'm sorry, I'm so angry. Like, it's only an hour long and it has stuck with. me for 10 years how long since I've seen it. Because you're so furious. Furious that you didn't go back because there is a reason that we want stories. There is a reason that characters make big choices and aren't real people because we don't want life is difficult and confusing and chaotic and doesn't follow the rules and we love the

rules. We want the happy ending. Yeah. Like the end of Dodge Ball. Oh my gosh. This is it going to turn. Sorry. From like offbeat theater to Dodge Ball.

The film Dodge Ball. also ends with the baddies with Ben Stiller's film team. The original ending that Ben Stiller wrote, his team just win at the finals. Like the baddies just win and the average Joe's team don't get the money and they go home

and that's the end of the film. It ends with the penalty shootout and they win. And that's how he originally wrote it and it went to like test audiences and everything and everyone was like, no, obviously no. And no matter how funny it is to be like, oh ha ha ha, like it doesn't matter. Like you can't pull the rug away from an audience or a reader or anything at that point because we're like, we're too invested,

we've here for the happy ending or any sort of conclusion just to be like, that's what it's like in the real world. The baddies would have won. Isn't enough. We like, we want catharsism. We want the story to come to a conclusion. Yeah. I don't think that's necessarily making sure that the good guy wins every time.

No, it doesn't always have to be that. I just think it's, you have to make it so that the audience doesn't feel looted. Yes. We don't want to be looted because we've bought into this. We've read your book for all this time. We've, yeah, exactly. It's why, like, you say, even if it's like a bittersweet ending.

Yeah, absolutely. Any end, like, you know, she just gets a, you know, it's sort of like, and then it was all a dream. We're like, well, why did we read it then? Yeah. Like, I think to stay in the realm of like sports movies, please. One of my favorite ones is, do you know, whip it with Ellen Bage?

Oh my good, yes. And so in the end of that, she doesn't, the team don't win. Like, the, the roller derby team don't win. And the opposing team who is fronted by Juliette Lewis. Yes. this is very, very scary Juliette Lewis

who's been kind of bullying her and it's like really old, right? Yeah, she's like in 40s. And she keeps being like, you're too young.

Yeah, and she kind of says to her she was like, how old are you? She's like, I'm 18. She's like, I'm 39 years old. Do you know how old I was before I found out

I was really good at something? 37. And it's like, and it's kind of a thing even though she's a villain you're like, you've given some shades to that character.

You're like, oh, it's actually okay that she's one because the other girl has her whole life to be the winner. Yeah. So I don't think it's about making someone the winner every time or whatever, but it's like, it's just the meat of that is so satisfying

because we love those characters so much. Yeah. Like the end of Bring It On, for example. Of course, the Clovers win and not the Toros. The Clovers should win. The Clovers should win. They tried way harder. They made a better routine.

They worked much harder for this. Of course it should be the Clovers. And even though we're following the story of the Toros and Kirsten Dunst, you know, we and the team look to her when it says that they got second place. and she goes, second place, pretty incredible. Like, yeah, and you're like, yeah, you're right. And really the win, the miniature win was the, was the realization that like second place at Nationals is still pretty incredible.

And that friendship was the true winner of the day. It's the friends we made along the way, you know? So it doesn't have to be like, oh, everything has to go well for our hero. It's just like there has to be some kind of, we don't have to, yeah, whatever the opposite of feeling looted is. Yeah. Satisfied, we have to be like, good story, you know? That came to a good conclusion.

I had a podcast recently with Sarah Manning who repeated something that Marion Key said to her and it actually changed the ending on my second book where she said to give people a love story and not a happy ending, it's fucking rude. To give people a love story and not a happy ending. It's fucking rude. That's really nice.

And then I just, yeah, I rewrote the ending because it's like, you know what, you're dead right? Yeah, dead right. We've invested, we've come all this way. What other sort of barriers do you think people have when they want to write a book so badly, but they don't, they can't seem to get it off the ground? I think it's the thing that you brought up right at the beginning,

which is that like you write a few pages, you have one rainy Wednesday afternoon, and you think, oh, bloody cracks with that novel, I guess. That'll be done by two times. Make a flan and write a novel, I suppose. And they write a bit, and then they read it back and it's not, they're faced with having to transition from it being, you know, an idea to suddenly it's on the page.

and it's not as good as they thought it could be. Especially because it's also, generally tends to be hyper-literate people who know what a good book looks like and see that their book, or the 5,000 words they've written, aren't as good as the books they love and therefore are worthless.

Yes. And so I think that's very tricky. I think, you know, so many people say, sort of write that, get out of your system, put in a drawer, don't look at it for many years, crack on, do your next one, or whatever. But I think no matter what you are trying to make in your life be that,

a table or out of wood or a brick wall or a, you know, whatever it is, a show, a book, a film, a movie, you go through that like circle, oops, or that like seven-step process that like, I think goes, this is an amazing idea. Oh, it's actually much harder than I thought. Oh, this is really bad. Oh, I'm really bad. Oh, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. Oh, yeah. Oh, maybe this can be okay. This is quite hard, but it's going to be good. Oh, this is going to be great. Yeah. And I think most people don't even get through the seven steps.

Yeah. They get to like step four and they're like time to abandon this and never speak of it again. Yeah, exactly. And you have to push through that bit that said this is going to be the worst thing in the world before you can come out the other side. And it is such a cruel. Such a cruelty that in order to make anything good, you have to go through that horrible step.

And essentially like the essence of, because like books take like, you know, a year, two years generally. And to live with it. any idea for that long it will seem stupid because you've turned it over in your head so much and it just seems like the most facile, idiotic idea in the world.

You're like, even if you were writing about like genocide, you'd be like, oh God, it's just like, oh, it's so stupid. Yeah, why would anyone want this thing for me? And I think there are better people, who cares? Why would anyone want this book? Yeah, even if the idea feels important, yeah, but why should I be writing?

Why me? Yeah, and I think that's a trap that a lot of people fall into. And I think it's also why... I think everyone falls in the trap. It's just only some people manage to climb out. I think everybody falls in it. Yeah.

And you just have to keep planning out of it. I'm sorry I interrupted you. No, not at all. I think that's why a lot of people, when they're picking their first project, they pick the most serious idea they can think of. Because they think that if they... It's something our friend Tash says a lot.

It's like art about an important subject does not make important art. Tash Hodgson everyone and I remember the first time I ever tried to write a novel was I had written a short story and it was published in an online thing and then an agent got in touch with me

and I was delighted and I was like oh I'm going to write something now I just have any ideas so I immediately like I started working on this novel idea and it was so embarrassing it was like the memories of an old woman during World War II

and like all the terrible things that happened to her at the war and all it was like it was so ham-fisted and so like me just chucking dead bodies as a subject to try and make it more important and therefore make myself feel more important and like I had a friend recently who was contacted in a similar way that I was contacted and by an editor asking oh you know we love your voice you know would you like to come in for a thing I hope she doesn't mean me saying this but like she says me okay so I've um the come and they've approached me and she's like a really funny woman who's like known for her like her lightness of touch and everything she's like so I'm going to go and

I think when I pitched them a book about homelessness. I was like, no, they've come to you because they think you're funny and effervescent and wonderful. And she was like, what am I going to do? Just like pitch them some sort of idea about my life where I do this and this and this. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. I think because especially women, because we're made to feel that like, oh, all women do is just write about who they bang. And then they call that art or whatever.

There's this thing like, oh, I'm not going to be that. I'm going to be someone who writes. you know, a prestigious great literature. Exactly, yeah. From a man's perspective when he goes to Armenia and, you know, something weird happens. You know, they try and go as far away from their own personal experience

because I think it's personal isn't serious. I think I'm being super intense. No, you're not. I just really recognize exactly that trait in myself and in so many other people, the idea of like I've got to step away from everything I am, not even in a conscious way it's not like I must never bring my true self out

it's like oh I've been offered this opportunity and this platform my platform therefore must speak about the most serious things like I must talk about these but if you didn't go through them they aren't your story to tell so tell your own story and if you and you can't then and then if your instinct is like

well I don't have anything to say it's like yes you do you definitely do of course you do every person in the whole world has an interesting story that is unique and you know the only happen to them because it did only happen to you. Or even like an experience that's... So for example, my first book was set in the advertising world

because I... It's been very simple to me because I've worked in the advertising world for a long time and I was very aware of the very specific foibles of that universe. The story was totally fictional and it was about a work place affair that I never had. But the fact that I had like experience, like five years of experience in this industry that's very specific and full of like lots of weird human quirks of behavior and that I was able to relay that. I didn't think of that as a skill

or like a, I think when we think of like, oh, bringing personal experiences or whatever, we think it's only important if that personal experience is having survived a war. Yeah.

But like having worked in a very specific industry is enough. Do you know what I mean? You can just take that little nugget of what you know about the world and just run as far as you can with it. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Oh, God. I can talk to you all there about it. Yeah. Is there anything, that you, any other like great, well, I'll start a snippet that I once read about Neil Gaiman

who is the author and I was going to say illustrated but that's not correct at all, so just author. Yes, Neil Gaiman, the author. His quote was when people point at where there can be edits in your work,

listen to them. When they make suggestions you can ignore them. Yes, that's very true. So if somebody points at something and is like, I thought it was weird and this again is like for any of your work in whatever capacity

you know your spreadsheet your presentation your table you're building whatever if someone says oh this feels weird this you know we don't believe it

it feels weird that she would go with him to the party yeah if that is that you can be like you can listen to that thing if they then say wouldn't it be more fun

yes if she went in a hot air balloon Like that, you can ignore the suggestion, but you do have to listen when someone says, it doesn't sit right with me that this thing, this felt weird. And so if someone is like, there's something about your table that does,

that slightly, you know, is with the table. I am looking at a table, which is why it's the only point of reference currently for me. You know, you don't have to listen to when they say, what if there was like five legs instead of four? Like you can ignore that part, but you do have to listen when they say, oh, it does feel weird when you sit still.

the grain is weird, the height is weird or whatever. Yeah. So you can, because those are, it is ultimately for somebody else to experience. And if they, if something doesn't sit right there is probably, that is probably. If someone just says to you, like, I just don't really believe she would do that. Yeah. There's nothing, you can't, you can't, be, well, yes, you can't, well, yes, you would. Because obviously she said that whole thing with the dad, so clearly.

And they're like, yeah, I hear you, I just didn't believe it. It's like, there's nothing you can really. Nothing you can do about that. Yeah. Yeah. If you didn't. Unless change it. You have to make...

You make the change. You have to... If it's totally obvious to you, why they did that, why the character did that, you have to tell us that along the way, you know? And I think actually,

the editing experience is something that doesn't get talked about enough in terms of writing books and stuff. And it's actually, it's been a great comfort to me because I always assumed before my book was picked up that editing was basically like...

Spell check, like glorified spell check. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's a typo. Here's a comma. Oh yeah, and you said that it takes like three hours to get to Dublin when it actually takes two hours and 15 or something But my first book went through

I think about 17 different versions Wow With the editor, yeah And so that's just like me pinging back this huge document Changing things and like my editor was so unbelievably rigorous And obviously that's a bit annoying I mean you just want to be done with the fucking thing Because you've been working on for fucking two years or whatever

But also it's so freeing When you're writing a first draft of something because you have to remember anything you write in a first draft there is maybe a 20% chance it will even make it in the final book which can feel like

a real disappointing thing or like it's really not very encouraging if you feel like you're writing words that won't make it to the final thing but if you twist that in that big oh these words don't even matter

is I even make it to the final thing I literally have to just like muleishly like fucking carry these words up this hill so we can get to the next plot points. We can next night chapter so that,

da, da, da, and they don't have to be good. They just, things just need to happen and the plot just needs to move. And you can come back and just make them good later. Like, as I said,

that's so wise. At the top of the podcast, like I said that my second book, I threw out half of it. And that was because, so I wrote the book, I wrote it sort of in between Promising Young Women being finished

and Promising Women coming out, sent it to my editor, and then I spent the summer promoting Promising Young Women. And then I came back to the draft six months later and I was like oh it's dreadful it's just dreadful and it was those huge swades of it that didn't even really make sense like there was one bit like this is a very realistic um murder mystery set in rural ireland and for about three chapters I implied that the

protagonist could see the future can they no they couldn't it just felt like a fun thing to do in that moment I was I don't know maybe I was fucking high I didn't but like the thing is like most of it got thrown out and rewritten and I don't see that as being a waste I think that material needed to exist so the next layer could get onto it that you know that book The Power that Naomi Olderman wrote and one of the biggest books of the last few years

that is set in like a very like a dystopian universe or whatever and she threw out 100,000 words of that book because she was like I spent 100,000 words explaining that world to myself but I needed to throw it out because I don't need, the reader does need to know, yes, and in this year, this is when this happened

and da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. We don't call them chairs, we call them squares because of this, because of our legs are weird. Like, they don't need to know that. They just need to know that I'm comfortable in this world. So, like, throwing away material isn't a bad thing. And, like, I honestly, my kind of motto for writing has always been, like, use every part of the buffalo, you know?

Yes. I remember specifically last summer, I went on holidays with my friend Jen, and I felt really like guilty that I was spending so much time just lying in her parents front garden just like watching her mow the grass and not doing anything and I felt like oh I shouldn't be on holidays I should be working I shouldn't be writing on my novel da da da da da da feeling really really guilty that I wasn't working and not appreciating that things percolate when you're not working and anyway so what happened was she was mowing the grass and all because the grass hadn't been mown in so long all these insects started coming out and started biting her and like all these big red welts

were happening on her skin and that she was reacting really quickly and then they started attacking me and it was suddenly this like really beautiful holiday scene became like apocalyptic and that scene is in my second novel with other characters with different characters obviously and it has different significance but like if I wasn't chilling out doing nothing that would never have happened everything counts everything that happens to you counts in some way not working it sometimes as important as working you know yes the most valuable lesson of all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think always that, like, if you're sat at your desk waiting for inspiration, it's never going to come. You have to take yourself out and walk it off and go and, like, find it from somewhere else. I mean, you write TV shows and stuff. Like, I find that I can't really write fiction for more than three hours a day.

After that, it just becomes crap. And the rest of it is just, like, walking around and answering emails, do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, how much made-up stuff can you make up a day? Yeah, is that an actual question? Yeah. No, exactly.

None. Well, that's the thing is like... Like a couple of hours maybe? Well, I don't write... Well, also, firstly, I actually have not written any TV shows, but like I... Let me have. I have... Well, I haven't.

I haven't. Not to be shows that are currently on air, but you've written many scripts. I have written many scripts. I think, no, I don't work for that. I mean, I'm always sort of thinking, and I run a lot and I, like, walk and I wrote both my Edinburgh shows on the move. So I wrote them both. I think the word, there's a difference between like writing and typing.

And I wrote them on the walk between the train station and my parents' house. And every time I was walking, it takes 45 minutes through a field. And that's sort of where I talked it out loud. And that's pretty much where I wrote all my stuff. And so very little happens. And then I would get home and like, or I would, like, just put my voice memos on. And I would walk and talk. and record myself

and most of it was nonsense and unusable. That's great, but that is as much as as sitting down is... Yeah, exactly. And so that's where I did... Yeah, so I do a lot of my thinking on the... On the hoof. Yeah.

On the hoof. We've got to come to the end, but I truly don't wish to. Luckily we can hang out next week. This has been such a joy. My last thing is about Game of Thrones and about you saying about building the world and Naomi throwing out. Naomi, of course, our pal.

I've thrown Naomi. But throwing out 100,000 words. Once she had understood the world fully herself, I think one of the great reasons that Joma Thrones has become so popular and was even a popular book before even the television arrived, is that that world is fully formed. Like, it absolutely exists. Like, you understand taxation, you understand where the money is coming from,

you understand who cleans the streets, you know why people across the... other you understand like everything it's like you understand what they do for entertainment you understand what board games exist you know what people do for sport you know what they do for fun like you know their folk songs their religions yeah the differences with like within their religion yeah the differences within the difference within the difference within religion and so that information was not probably exists I think you can buy the like you know the companion books that have

all that she says as though she doesn't own them all but like that that information the book does not begin with, you know, a sort of explanation about religion in this world. It doesn't explain it to you. It, like, allows it to, like, filter in and give you just enough piecemeal. People don't want to read a Wikipedia page. No one wants to read a Wikipedia page. Like, well, do they? I mean, I don't know.

But, like, it doesn't just sit down and explain the thing to you. It allows it to filter out, but because it fully exists. So I think that is, you know, George, our friend George, obviously did his homework. You know, he built that well. before he started writing it, he knew the answers. And also he had built dozens of worlds before that. Before that, yeah. He wrote so many books before Game of Thrones.

Yeah. Yeah. And so sometimes he's like, it's never being in me your first way. You just got to sort of crack on. And you have to know those answers. You kind of just sort of sit. George probably just saw like somebody with their tit out and a dragon or whatever. And it's like, that'll be fun.

You probably saw one of those like black t-shirts that has like a naked lady with a sword and a wolf howling at the moon. Yeah. And he was like that. That's it. That's what people won. And he was right. they did but what they needed more than that

and the reason that so many fantasies have fallen in his wake is that there was not that effort to be like how does this world exist? Yeah and I think it's the same with like I think it's true like the reason why Harry Potter will remain like the defining fantasy thing of this

generation I think because we understand that world so perfectly and it's not I don't think anyone individually cares about Harry, Ron or Hermione no truly we could be gone they could be cut gun but we care about Diagonally and like quidditch

and house points and we believe everything there like we this is how the world works this is who runs the bank like this is how you go to work like we know it that's the thing like reading those boots

allowed us not just to follow Harry who in my mind is a dickhead and I've said it I've said it she said it I've said it the boy's got serious PTSD but he's a dicket but there's no therapy in the wizarding world there's no therapy in the wizarding world

and there does need to be We read those books So we ourselves could run around Hogwarts And get to explore all the stuff Like that's what we wanted from that And that's because it exists So my point is guys I truly believe in you

There's no reason you can't write This generation's Harry Potter This generation's great work of literature I truly believe Lies inside you Yeah and I honestly think I've done it

Like I was And she's a moron A moron you know You're not You're so wonderful Thank you. Also, my last bit of advice is don't go from zero to novel.

Don't go from like, okay, I was quite good at English in school. Now I'm going to dedicate every waking moment of my spare time to writing a novel. Start off with a few short stories. Start a few essays. Don't punish yourself. Don't feel bad for not doing something. Make sure you really want to do this before you do it, you know?

Because it can be very lonely and hard and you have to really like it. That's my parting ball. Yes. But with that in mind, if you think it's for you, I believe in you. It's going to be a hard slog, and there'll be moments when you think this is the worst idea I've ever had.

But I think, if you think there's a story in there, don't let yourself get to the end of your days and think, I could have done it. Be like, just do it. Do it. Get it out of you. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. This has been truly a... Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Never a chore. Caroline is at Caroline Adonoghue on Twitter. No, I'm at Zaroline on Twitter. Oh, right. Do you know anything about me?

No. Like, Z. C-Z, A-R-L-I-N-E. Yeah. Okay, so it's the word Caroline, but she's the Tsar. Yeah, but Russian royalty. C-Z-A-R.

And no one else had that. No, it's, I was on Twitter really close and A. Yeah, she got in early. She's a real, she's before our time. Same on Instagram? I'm Zara Online on Instagram. Oh, there's no time for this. There's no time.

I'm very sorry. Sarah on Twitter. Zah Online. on Instagram. I have a book called and a young women. I have a podcast called sentimental garbage. Listen to them all. Thank you. Thank you much. You did such a better job of selling herself then. I did wandering through

misspelling your name. Thank you so so much for joining us. The Twitter handle is at Nobody Panic Podcast and the at Nobody PanicPonickPod, sorry. And the Gmail is Nobody Panicpodcast at gmail.com. And thank you so, so much for hanging out with us and making it to the end. And we will see you next week. Okay. Bye-bye.

Bye!