Nobody Should Believe Me - A survivor's perspective: unabridged interview with Jordyn Hope

Episode Date: December 28, 2023

In this bonus episode, host Andrea interviews regular guest and friend of the show Jordyn Hope, a survivor of Munchausen by proxy abuse. Jo shares their personal story of revelations of abuse and recounts the emotional toll of constantly having to prove their own sickness.  Andrea and Jo discuss the Maya Kowalski case and Jo provides insight into the parent-child dynamics, including the enmeshment, lack of boundaries, and parentification often seen in abusive situations. Andrea and Jo grapple with the complicated feelings around Maya's continued defense of her mother.   Jo also opens up about how painful it is for survivors to hear their abuse erased and denied. They offer a message of validation and fight to other survivors struggling with self-doubt in the wake of this high-profile case. This is a thoughtful, nuanced discussion around the themes of voice, compassion, and the ripple effects of denying abuse.  *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com   Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at [phone]   Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop  Buy Andrea’s books here.  Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here.  ***  Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Happy holidays. We are taking a little bit of a break today, but we have a wonderful bonus episode for you. This is my unabridged interview with survivor Jordan Hope that we did earlier this season. So please enjoy this episode and we

will be back next week with the first episode of our three-part season finale featuring my interview with Dr. Sally Smith. Well friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories

and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book,

and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes and if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Hey, Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments.

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call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hi, Jo. Hello. Thank you for being with us. You are a regular guest and friend of the show and real life friend as well.

So we're very happy to have you here. you start off by just refreshing us on who you are and how you come to this issue. Just a sort of quick cliff notes version of your story. Yeah. So my name is Jordan Hope, but I also go by Joe and I am a survivor of Munchausen by proxy. And I also now do a lot in the field working with other survivors and other people impacted by Munchausen. And tell us just a little bit about how you came to understand what had happened to you throughout the course of your childhood. So growing up, I had no idea anything about Munchausen by proxy. I thought I was sick my entire life. I thought I had rare blood diseases and asthma and a bunch of other ailments. And it wasn't until I was, I believe, 22 or 23, and I was in a abnormal psychology class for school and our professors started talking about what Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy were and suddenly I was

flooded with a bunch of memories and a bunch of pieces just kind of clicked together and I got my medical records sent to me and there had been reports made specifically about munchausen by proxy and page after page of my medical records very blatantly showed the abuse that I had gone through. Yeah. And as you mentioned, you do a lot of work with survivors in our peer support groups and as an individual counselor now. So in your experience, hearing from those folks, do most people have a similar experience where they realize sometime in adulthood that they were victimized, or do they have a sense of it when they are actually kids in the house? Absolutely not. Usually, I think, I mean, there's a lot to be said about when you're a kid, you couldn't really have these realizations because you have to believe that you're safe in the home that you're in, regardless of the abuse that is going on. And

also, you don't know it's not normal until you know it's not normal. So a lot of survivors I talk to, I mean, some people find out in their 20s, 30s, 40s, or later, and it's really sad to see. But a lot of people, there's been people who've had very similar situations where they were in a class in school for psychology, and that's when they first even heard the term and things started to click. So a lot of similarities for people with that. You at this point are years out from that initial revelation and you are still trying to make sense of your health and what is real. Is that right? Yeah, I just a few months ago found out that I never had asthma. And that still is a hard thing to be working through. I still have asthmatic like symptoms that come up and that I have to kind of find new ways to work

through and deal with. But there's a lot of different things. I mean, just yesterday, I learned that something that I like, thought was like going on with my body that I had thought was just like a normal thing is actually probably related to this like vocal cord dysfunction that was caused by my mother's abuse. And so it's like all these back and forths of still trying to learn some things that aren't real and that were just abuse. Some things that I thought were normal and are actually parts of different struggles and chronic illnesses now that I do have and trying to figure out like where the where they all come from. So one of the things that comes up a lot in this case is the psychological components of pain. And we're going to unpack a little bit of that a little bit later. But saying that something has a psychological component

doesn't mean it's not real or that you're not feeling it. And so what we're like now looking back, knowing that you do not have a diagnosis of asthma, which your mother, in my recollection, represented to you that you had not have a diagnosis of asthma, which your mother, in my recollection, represented to you that you had not just asthma, but like severe life-threatening asthma. Absolutely, yeah. It was severe asthma.

I couldn't run more than a few blocks without ending up in the emergency room. I was on steroids and nebulizers and things like that to try to manage. And so now sort of looking back, knowing that underlying diagnosis was not actually real, I mean, how do you look back on those incidents where you were having a quote asthma attack or where you were having an incident and you were brought into the ER? And I mean mean what what sort of like and I imagine that that is really sort of a complicated thing to look back on some of those memories um yeah what do you kind of make of what was maybe

going on with you that convinced you at the time that you were having really these symptoms because you were not sort of, you weren't quote faking symptoms. You were having it, but it's sort of more psychologically complex than that. Yeah. So I, it's interesting, like looking back at it because I mean, the doctors, you know, I had a, like a whole chart of, these are the things to do when you're in this zone or when you're in this zone. Like I had an asthma plan that the school had and things like that, that I was supposedly supposed to follow. So looking back at that, it's always interesting. But I think when I look back, I think it was just anxiety. I think I was having like panic attacks or anxiety attacks. And that combined with vocal cord dysfunction, a lot of times vocal cord dysfunction can be misinterpreted as asthma. And there are like some differences. Like for instance, my issue has

always been breathing in. And I guess with asthma, oftentimes it's breathing out. That's the problem, which I didn't know until very recently. And the vocal cord dysfunction, that can be caused by things like acid reflux, which was caused by the induced vomiting that was going on in infancy. So it makes sense where it would have all come from and where even doctors would have been confused by some of the symptoms. But when I would go to the doctor, to the ER specifically, they would often put in my notes or tell my mom that I wasn't having an asthma attack and that it was anxiety. And then she, of course, would make a really big deal out of it and would tell me about it.

And then I would think, oh, my gosh, they don't believe me, but I couldn't breathe. Like I clearly wasn't okay. And so then people constantly trying to tell me that I was like faking asthma when I really couldn't breathe and was really having struggles. I would sometimes fake symptoms in a way, like I would have more anxiety and I would end up having more breathing struggles because I wanted people to just be able to help me because I didn't know what was going on. Yeah. And that's such a hard position to be in as a kid. And do you remember what, you know, in those instances where doctors and medical professionals were pushing back on your mom, do you remember what her reactions were and sort of what the story she told you

about those interactions? Like what, what was the kind of narrative around those doctors pushing back? So I remember like very vividly, I was in, it was either fourth or fifth grade and we had run the half mile and I had what I thought was an asthma attack. And I went to the nurse and I remember like the nurse bringing in the guidance counselor and like the vice principal and the principal. And I was laying in a bed, breathing through a paper bag, and they were all just standing around me. And they called my mom instead of an ambulance, which at the time, of course, I didn't really understand. I thought I was dying. I thought they were standing around me as I was like taking my last

breath. My mom finally got there. And I remember when I got in the car, I was able to breathe. I suddenly was not having breathing issues at all. And I tried to tell my mom and my mom was like, no, you're gonna die. We have to bring you to the ER. You can't breathe. You're gonna die.

She brought me to the ER. That's when they were like, no, this isn't an asthma attack this is just anxiety and hyperventilating and my mom just like yelled at them and told them like how dare you like you'd say these things and eventually they did give me a shot to help with the supposed asthma attack and i calmed down and we were able to go home. And then my mom, I remember just going off about how like I could have died and how dare they say I didn't have asthma when I clearly like was having an asthma attack and just all these things. And I remember later on, like I would go to school

and I would tell everyone like this doctor that I had when I was in elementary school, like he tried to say, I don't have asthma, but like, I clearly do. I can't even run. And I just, yeah, I really bought into the story and believes that that's what was going on. Yeah. So it sounds like there was a lot of making doctors that disagreed with her, the villains. Absolutely. Yeah. She, she would really go after any doctor that tried to say that I wasn't experiencing whatever ailment or illness she wanted me to have at that time and I imagine for you that made you pretty wary of doctors and medical professionals absolutely I. I, yeah, I never really trusted doctors. It was kind of this weird thing though, where on one hand I was terrified of hospitals and hated doctors. I guess I wasn't so afraid of hospitals, but I didn't trust doctors because I didn't think that they ever

listened to what I was saying or what was going on. And I felt like I always had to prove that I was sick, where, but then at the same time, there was like a comfort with being in the hospital and having that attention and care and safety. And I wonder if you think, and obviously I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here, but I wonder if like part of that comfort you felt in a hospital setting was that because like how was your mom different when you were in the hospital than when you were out of the hospital? Like I just wonder about sort of how, because one thing that I noticed as a parent is that, you know, and my kids are little, but, and obviously for you, this goes back to the time that you were really little and the time that you were a baby. But, you know, I noticed that like whatever mood I'm in, like really affects them. Like they are so sort of attuned to like if my husband or I, especially me, you know, if we're grumpy, if we're sad, it's like they will sort of, you know, be more calm. If I'm calm, they act out when I'm, you know, grumpy and snappy and that kind of thing.

So I wonder if like, was part of it that, that your mom was different when you were in the hospital than when you were at home? Yes, I think there's a couple of things. I think one, that that's like a really big thing. I think at home, the memories that I have of mom are, she was like very distant or very much like on top of me. Like there was really no in between. It was always either just straight neglect or like she would be passed out on the couch

holding me down and I wouldn't be able to move. So there was like two sides of it. And it was always when mom wants to pay attention. If I like I jammed my thumb in fourth grade and when I tried telling her like she didn't have time for it, it wasn't going to get her attention in that moment. And she was on the phone with a friend or something like that. And so it was just like, wash it off and like, stop crying. And I like really needed her in that moment. So it was always, but then like a lot of times I would want to be playing or doing something, but then she would be telling me that I was sick or had a concussion or had something wrong and needed like that attention. And so I think in the hospital, one, she still was very hovery and was very like right there in everything

speaking for me and all of that, but was nicer seeming. She seemed to be kinder towards me. And I think at the same time, the hospital safety was like the one time that she couldn't be harming me and that I would kind of have space from her in some respect because I would be with the doctors or things like that. I would have food. I would have, you know, all those different needs taken care of. Because you were in a position where you were isolated with your mom a lot. And so, maybe it was sort of that security of having other adults around that also was part of it. That's really interesting. So, yeah, that's something that comes up a lot in this case is the conversations that, you know, Beata Kowalski was having with providers in front of her daughter, presumably with her daughter also

behind the scenes, you know, about this being a terminal illness, about hospital care, about death, about the sort of the looming specter of death. And I wonder, you know, you mentioned that also. And how did that, like, was that something that your mom seemed pretty fixated on? And how did that affect you? I definitely, I can't remember like specific times minus the asthma situations where she would say that I was dying, but it was like a very big message. I mean, I thought that I would die in my childhood. You know, I did got to do pageant when I was four because I was like the sick kid in town or things like that. And I definitely never thought that I would survive. I've always been very afraid of dying and very afraid of death. So when mom would say that I had a concussion and that I had to stay home and that I couldn't move or these things because I could die,

I would listen. Or when she said I couldn't sleep because I might die, I wouldn't sleep or things like that. So I very much, I guess there was a lot of messaging that maybe I just have kind of pushed away a lot of that. But I mean, even as an adult, I still am working through my fears of death. That's always been like a very big thing. Either me dying or my mom dying was always a really big thing too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just to kind of switch gears, thank you for sharing all of that with us. So one of the things we're really talking about this season is this expanding media narrative that is really on a roll at the moment

that there is a rampant over-diagnosis of medical child abuse, that parents of legitimately fragile children who are not abusing their children are being accused and separated from their children just in these huge numbers, right? And I wonder, both as a survivor and as a person who is working in the field, who honestly, you have probably talked to more survivors than anyone else in the professional sphere. I mean, something both you and I know from our work with the APSAC committee, of which I'm a member and you are going to be a member soon, you know, is that people have not studied survivors. And that's not because those professionals don't care.

It's because there's just been a limited amount of sort of resources devoted to this. But we are, you know, you and me and B Yorker, you in particular are really on the forefront of talking to so many survivors and you sort of have information and data at that at this point is new, that nobody has collected before.

And so I wonder what you have to say about that narrative of these false accusations are happening all the time. Yeah, if that were the case, I think that most survivors would have gotten out of their homes much sooner. Most survivors wouldn't have siblings that have died at the hands of their abuser. There wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't have been stuck in my home if there was this over-reporting that

was happening because even when there's a lot of evidence to it being clear abuse, most kids aren't able to get out of the house even with that. So that's very much, I mean, my situation, right? There were reports made. It was very evident page after page of documentation, very clearly stated I was a healthy child who just needed time away from my parents and things like that. And yet I was stuck in that home. And so if over-reporting of this happened, I wouldn't have been stuck in the home for so long. So it just doesn't really make sense. I mean, I am the first to say that there are issues with the medical system and that there are issues. I'm in school to be a social worker and there's a lot of issues within the social work profession. I see that there are issues. You know, I'm in school to be a social worker and there's a lot of issues

within the social work profession. I see that all the time. I'm very aware of that. And a lot of what is happening now after this movie came out, there's just no, it doesn't make any sense what people are trying to claim. It doesn't match with what's actually going on.

Yeah. And to the point about the issues with, which we are going to, you know, do a little more unpacking of that this season because this is something that I'm very curious about as well. You know, there are these huge issues% of family separations that happen in this country are not related to abuse. They are, you know, sort of these neglect allegations that are or neglect issues that are related to poverty and substance abuse, right? And so very much in my estimation, and I think a lot of people's, you know, situations where if the family was given more resources, those problems would go away. And it is not a problem of an abusive parent. It's a problem of a parent who is struggling in some way. And so, you know, in terms of, I think what is really sort of coalesced for me is that the people who are coming out and calling themselves, not every single one of them, but like many of these people who are calling themselves victims

of the system are not victims of the system. And they are taking up space that doesn't belong to them because there are a lot of victims of the system. And it's not related to medical abuse over diagnosis. And so I think it's like, it's offensive on sort of these two levels, right? Like number one, that I don't think it's happening. And I don't think that it's, I think it's making children less safe by saying that it's happening

and it's making parents scared and all of that. But it's also taking, you know, resources and it's taking air out of the room from people, you know, who have lost their kids because they were born with, you know, marijuana in their system or because a social worker came to their house and they didn't have enough bedrooms for however many kids they had in the house and like stuff like that, where those problems are comparatively so fixable compared to this, right? Which you have to have so, I mean, both you and I know just from having talked to all these people, like you have to have so much evidence to get anything done. And in that case, it's usually, you know, we know of situations where, you know, maybe the abuser was separated for a couple of years and then they got their kids back and they had another kid.

And I mean, it's not like it's not. I just don't. We I don't think either of us. I mean, have you seen any evidence that that is happening? Like we are going to talk to someone who we who was legitimately falsely accused this season. And I think it'll be really interesting to sort of compare and contrast. But I mean, have you like do you see any evidence of this happening? No, I think everything you're saying is so beautifully put. In one of my social work

classes right now, we're talking about this exact issue with how oftentimes neglect is seen as child abuse when it's really just a lack of resources and accessibility and obviously capitalism and things like that um oppression but it's neglected we you don't really see it as much like you're saying with medical child abuse which isn't to say that it never happens as you're saying what you're going to speak to somebody who was falsely accused there. But that's like how it always is, right? Like with sexual assault cases, it's like so many times people are like, oh, it's over. People are just saying this. It's over said when really it's like so underreported. And like, sure, there are false allegations made on probably everything and anything that you can think of. But if you look at the bigger picture

and like look at what's really going on, like it's way underreported. And even when it is reported, most of the time it doesn't even get past the initial reporting phone call because nobody, still most people don't know what medical child abuse is and don't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole

for so many reasons. Because they might end up as the villains of a Netflix film, for instance. Yes. So what were your initial impressions? We watched the Netflix documentary Take Care of Maya as a teen. What were your initial impressions upon watching this film? Yes. I know we spoke in the roundtable discussion about this too. And like I said on there, when I watched the film, I didn't know much at all going into it. I obviously hadn't read any of the things that I've read now or talked with any of you guys about all the other stuff going on behind the scenes. So I just watched the documentary and I felt so many emotions, especially for Maya and related to so many of the different things that she spoke to and felt I felt angry at the doctors

and the social worker and all these different people. There's different parts of it that I could very much relate to as a kid that was being abused and had just doctors do inappropriate things. And as an adult who does have some like chronic health issues and just how the medical system looks to me. So there was like a lot of, I like, yeah, really felt like I could relate and felt really angry about a lot of things. And it wasn't until later realizing like how one sided the documentary was and realizing that like I had been tricked.

I fell right into everything that they wanted me to fall into because of the different ways that I could relate. And it's hard when you see those things, it can be hard. Like if you're so validating and it's hard to see, oh, there's a whole other side to this or there's all these other things that could be going on. Yeah. I mean, I agree with you that I think in terms of it being an emotionally effective film, I think it did its job clearly, you know, and they they pointed you to the it's sort of like, look at the thing we want you to look at. And, you know, there was a lot of like dramatic music and they played the 911 call and they, you know, showed all these pictures of them as a family. And I mean, it's really like it tugged on the heartstrings that you wanted it

to tug on. And so, yeah, I think that that's, that is how it, how it struck me as well. So that is what watching this film is what started us all on this journey that we're now on through the thousands of pages, thousands and thousands of pages of court depositions, et cetera, that have been done on this case. And you have read Maya's depositions, and I wonder what you think about what she has to say. And if you could just describe kind of what, you know, what, so there's, I think, three different depositions, but they were all sort of, I think they kept getting interrupted because she got really upset. And obviously, I mean, this is like, I have thought so many times about just sort of the ethics of putting a traumatized kid through all of this. It just seems really cruel. But nonetheless, what did you, like, what did she have to say in her depositions? And what, you know, what was your, like, sort of interpretation? Because I am very interested in what you said about you could sort of put yourself back in that kid version of seeing

doctors that are disagreeing with your mom as the enemy and you know and all of that and really just relating to like a lot of the experience even that the film showed you through that certain lens so I wonder what what your thoughts were reading her what she had to say yeah it was definitely hard to read through some of it it was hard to read through some of it. It was hard to see, like you're saying the ethics of it. Like I, um, uh, my heart like literally just goes out to her. I, I think after I read it that night, I had a dream that I like met her in person and I was like talking to her and I was just telling her that I was like, so sorry and that I just wished that she could be a kid and was trying to yeah like comfort her it was a very very vivid dream um but because

it's just so sad I mean I think it's in her affidavit where she says like I'm 14 but I'm really mature for my age and like I know how court proceedings and all this stuff go. And it's like, she's trying to prove that she knows a lot. And like, my heart is just breaking because I'm like, no, be a kid. Like, go, like, go have fun. Like, I get you have been through a lot. Like she's been through so much and she's just still getting everything taken away from her and like so many opportunities to just be a young child, adult in the world. So that, first of all, that like really affected me a lot because I mean, I went through, I would say similar things just with not ever getting to have those opportunities because

I was always having to try to prove that I had been through something or that I wasn't okay or that I was sick or all of that. And it took so many years away from me. I mean, I would say literally until last year, like a year and a half ago, I would say I just didn't get to have any experiences of just being okay enough in the world and having a different identity. So that was really hard. Reading and seeing like how intense that they were going at her. It seemed like a lot of what they were going at was like, oh, you were faking or like, oh, you couldn't have had these issues. And this is, sorry, this is when the defense is doing the questioning. And I don't know if it's technically called cross-examination when it's a deposition.

I'd have to check with Jonathan. But like, so this is when, and I'm trying to remember, I think it was Hughes who did the questioning during the deposition. But yeah, that was, yeah. So when the Johns Hopkins team or when the defense was questioning her, is that what you're talking about? Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks. That was really hard to read because I would have responded in such similar ways to her. Like I, one, I didn't realize that I was a victim of Munchausen by proxy until I was in my 20s but two like if any whenever people came at me trying to say that I had faked anything I would get so defensive

because like I just I still needed help I was still hurting and I still did have struggles I didn't know like I wasn't trying to manipulate anybody. And I really did think I had those issues. So seeing, I really felt for her and how she was responding because I, like I said, would have responded the exact same way. And regardless of what physical things are going on, psychosomatic things are going on, whatever it may be, there was still clear medical abuse that was happening that's I mean right in the records and we're like very evident by how she responded since that situation and all of that so it's just really yeah it's really painful to see how much she still feels she has to prove how sick she is and was and how just like the wording she would use and one of them she like talked about how not sure if this was the affidavit or the

deposition but she talked about how she if she hadn't received the ketamine like she would have died within the month and that's like so sad to me because once again there's like a lot of evidence contrary to that statement and just that plus all of the comments of being held captive or her captors and how the wording that she uses like does not seem like wording that a child or a teenager would be using and so it felt reading it it felt like very much like brainwashing or a lot of things being like told to her and of course you take in those stories I mean like I said I thought certain doctors were evil and bad and out to get me and just people in general I thought were out to get me and just people in general, I thought were out to get me and trying

to kill me my whole life, you know? So it's like, as a kid and as a teen, you believe what you're told and it becomes your reality. It becomes the way that you see the world. Yeah. I mean, and I think that happens in abusive situations in a particularly intense way, but it happens in non-abusive situations. Like, listen, I went off to my, I went off to my liberal arts college believing that trickle-down economics were real. And, you know, that's just something I absorbed in my household. You know, we all get, we all get our ideas from, that's the, that's our, that's, that's where we get most of our ideas when we're growing up, right? And then we go in the world and we figure out what we really think about things. And yeah, I mean, it, mean, that all struck me to the language

and just like, I, you know, it has occurred to me, readings through this documentation, and also certainly watching, you know, we've been trying to watch as much of the trial as we can, and watching this play out, like, what an impossible situation she is being put in because regardless of what was going on with her health, regardless of the veracity of this diagnosis of CRPS, whatever it is, what you want any child to do is embrace their health, embrace their idea of themselves as someone who is capable, embrace their feeling that they have a bright future. And I really get the sense listening to this and especially listening to some of these doctors on this stand this week, you know, that what she is still being told is really counter to that, right? And that if she sort of really wholeheartedly embraces a bright future and good health, that she, I fear, and this is like a betrayal of her mother and that she might be implicating her mother if she says that her health has been getting better over the last few years. And also now she's being put in the position where that would be a betrayal of her remaining parent, her father. with Johns Hopkins is very contingent on the fact that not only that she has this diagnosis

and that it was so serious that they needed to give these life-threatening treatments to address it, but that also sort of that they didn't do anything wrong in those treatments. And so she's really like, I don't know what she could possibly do I mean she's just been painted into such a corner and it seems like such an unfair position to put a child into and I think you know I see why the deficit like the defense has to question her and it was really painful because I don't I'm like I don't think I think my reading of it was like this child doesn't have any answers for you like this child is not going to be able to give you an objective sense of what happened to her and that is not because I want to take her voice away or because I don't you know but I think like if you look at

the situation what is playing out what is at stake for her family and like especially in the wake of her mom's death how could she have a sense, an objective sense of like reality? And also there's, you know, all kinds of things with trauma and memories and the stories we hear afterwards that get woven into those. It just doesn't seem like a fair position to put her in. And yeah, I mean, my heart just like really breaks for her.

And I think in some sense, she's right at the center of this. And in some sense, she's completely lost in it. Like her and her well-being has been completely lost. Yes. Yeah. I full heartedly agree with everything that you're saying. I know I've been talking a lot to my roommate about like, as I've been reading some of the different stuff and just, I mean, this whole process of everything happening in the world because of this has been just a lot to process so I've processed a lot with my therapist and with my roommate but as I like talk to my roommate we just we do we

keep coming back to like how sad of a situation it is and how like unfair it is and it's none of it's her fault and her doing in any way shape or form and like it just sucks that like you said she's being put in the middle of it and there's uh there's just so many so many issues so many issues with it and obviously like my my mom I didn't get taken out of the home because of her, that munchosomiproxy I got taken out because of her alcoholism. But even just like, as I was an adult, I had to stay sick for a long time to meet financial needs, to meet basic housing needs, to meet basic housing needs and things like that. As I was homeless from age 16 to 18, I had to be sick so that I could get help in different ways. And so it makes so much sense to me why she would have to stay. There is no other option for her given like everything that's going on in her environment. People are sort of making her

this figurehead of the falsely abused movement. And I just think that's, I think that's, that's so wrongheaded. And I just, yeah, I mean, I, I, I will say it more plainly than that. I mean, I feel like it's exploitative of her. And I really question how Jack Kowalski could think that this is the best, because this is drug on for six years now. And so, like, you know, I, and who knows how it's going to sort of play out from here. But it just to make your, I mean, to sort of have her revisit this again and again. And I think, like, you know, there are some questions, like one of the things that struck me in, and I don't know if this is a piece of documentation that you read, but one of her, but I did want to ask you about it, just this piece of it. So Dr. Wassener, who was a general practitioner who saw both Beata and Maya Kowalski, and he saw them for sort of a year and a half period of time, I think, because it was after they moved, he saw them five times, I think he had a total of five, five visits with Maya. And he's testified on behalf of the plaintiff, so on behalf of the Kowalskis. And he said in his affidavit that he thought Maya, and who was at the time nine years

old, thought that she was really quite independent and wouldn't be subject to pressure from her mom. And that he thought she could sort of, I can't remember, I'm paraphrasing, but sort of like, oh, that she wouldn't be, this wasn't Munchausen by proxy abuse because she seemed like she could really speak for herself. I mean, what do you say? How does that land for you? I did not read that yet. But hearing that, I feel a lot of things. I was that kid. I was that kid that seemed very mature, that was very mature, that was very independent. That, yeah, was very, I mean, my sister is 12 years older than me. So I was always hanging out with her and her friends. I was always with people way older than me and

always was able to like fit in and mask in whatever way. And at 15 years old, I had back surgery that I didn't need. And I had rods and screws put in my back. So I think that doesn't really make any sense. You can be mature and you can, but first of all, usually a lot of times that maturity or that independence can come directly because of abuse or because of neglect or because of what it is that you're going through where where you're not able to express your needs, or get help, or be dependent, because you know. Right, like kids can, kids who are in abuse situations can often, I think, seem, and this is something that's in the peer-reviewed literature, not just your take on it, but that they can, it can sort of adultify them, or parentify them in a way where they're being made to be the caretaker of their parents' emotional needs.

And so it does make them seem more mature. And I really, that comment in particular from Dr. Wassner's affidavit stuck with me because I was sort of saying, well, so like only weak children get abused? I mean, that just seemed, that seemed sort of horrifying to me. But so another thing that struck me in reading some of the questions that they asked Maya about in her deposition was this concept of Beata writing both a blog and emails. The emails really struck me that she would write. She had a blog that she wrote in Maya's voice. And, you know, part of the reason we know that that was her, I'm sure there's like forensic reasons, but just from us looking at these, you know, at the documents is that she was narrating Maya's experience in Maya's voice while she was in a coma. So obviously Maya was not writing this,

but something else that came up during the deposition was that Beata would write emails and it was unclear to me who she was sending them to. I think Beata might have just been sending them to herself. So sort of like as a diary kind of. But she would send these emails that were in Maya's voice about Maya's health and her experiences. And that struck me as just the blog in her voice, having talked to some other parents who've like gone through cases where they had a, you know, medically fragile child. There's like a, there's sort of maybe an explanation for that. It's still a little strange given how old she was, but sort of like, you know, that they, oh, we're trying to share information. We're keeping people updated. Like, okay, that I could sort of see an explanation for that. But

the emails, I mean, and I wonder just like, how did that strike you? That seemed very, that seemed like a really strange dynamic that the two of them had in that sense. I mean, what did that, what was your take on that? Yeah yeah it definitely felt like a really big red flag to me and very like yeah very concerning because I think that that to me was where I was like oh okay I've been saying like you know we'll never know for sure if it was Munchausen by proxy or like what exactly was going on right we'll We'll never have these answers. And what I'm like reading through and like looking at things, to me, it's like very evident

that there was the medical child abuse. But when I saw the emails and the blog posts or the Facebook posts or things like that, that's where my like red flags start going off for more of the Munchausen way proxy pathology and abuse in that way, just with all of that. And I mean, you know, thankfully computers weren't a big thing when I was really young. So my mom wasn't like online in that way, really. But I mean, some of the things that's like very similar, I feel like, to how my mom would have like spoke.

Or the fact that I got to be in pageant when I was four years old because I was like so sick or things like that. So I related in that way to that. But yeah, it was a very big red flag. Yeah. So just sort of like broaden our scope to this this case um as i've been reading through these depositions from the doctors that have been hired as experts by the kowalskis or are you know testifying on their behalf and i don't say hiring in some suspicious way like both sides pay experts for their time that's doesn't mean what they have to say isn't valid that's just like what you do when

you're in a court case. So, you know, reading through the experts on their side. So, you know, we have, we mentioned Dr. Wassener, who's obviously speaking from his experiences with Maya. We, I believe Dr. Kirkpatrick is going to testify today. He is a real interesting character. Dr. Chopra, who did one evaluation with her later on, you know, after Beata's death, spoke on the stand. And I had this real growing suspicion that these doctors didn't believe that medical child abuse was a real phenomenon. And that's confirmed by some of their own writings. And also, as I dug back into the court filings, there was actually

a motion made by the Kowalski team called the Dobert defense. If I'm not right about that, sorry, I am not actually a lawyer. I feel like one right now. But which basically, the argument that they were making is that Munchausen by proxy is junk science. So basically, not only are they saying Beata didn't do this, they're saying Beata didn't do this because no one does this. Because this form of abuse isn't real. It's based on junk science. Now, just to clarify, it is not. It is based on a whole ton of like 40 plus years of peer-reviewed science. So it is very much not junk science, which is why this petition was dismissed. It strikes me that actually even in the absence of that filing, like that is sort of still the argument that they're making. And I wonder what you have to say to that. And also just like on an emotional level, like what does it feel like for you to hear something like that, to hear these people making that argument.

Yeah. I like don't usually get emotional on podcasts or like in the work that I do, but this is what gets me every time. It's so, so many emotions. I feel so angry because one, obviously I'm a survivor. So to go out and have people that are now protesting and doing all these different things, trying to say that this doesn't exist, literally is like saying that I don't exist. I don't matter. And my life does not matter. And I have fought for 28 years for my life. So I, I would say that I do matter we all have so many similarities. The weirdest things in common, the like oddest characteristics that just seem to be case through case to case, like everyone has so many similarities and you see perpetrators of this abuse having the same characteristics time and time again. So if it didn't exist, you just wouldn't think that there could be red flags or that there would be all these obvious signs and similarities when you've never talked to these people and suddenly you just keep hearing the same things

over and over again. So just, it's clear that these people are not talking to survivors and don't want to hear these things. I mean, yeah, I know that I oftentimes I still I mean, I work in the field and I'm a survivor and I work with survivors. And there's so many times that I will be like, is that did I make this up? Like, is this real like this? It can't this real? Like this, it can't be real, right? Because it doesn't make sense. And in the support groups that I facilitate for survivors, pretty much every group at some point, I have to say like, you guys, it won't make sense. Like we can't make sense of this because there's nothing to make sense of. Like, how do you make sense of your mother trying to kill you for attention for your whole life? Like, there's just no, you're not going to get to an answer.

And I think society as a whole obviously isn't ready to hear that or to like work through that complex. And so it's just like, yeah, even as a survivor, I question it or I don't want it to be real. I would much rather it be like, oh no, I was actually sick and I miraculously got better. And like, I did need all these things. I would much rather that be the answer

and that be what I like have to heal from and work through is actually being a sick kid versus the reality of like what happened. And it just feels, yeah, I get so emotional because it's like, I finally survived. I finally started to build a life. I'm finally doing these things. And to have so many people being like, no, no, none of it's real. It's all fake. It's not real. It feels like a desperate attempt to pull me back. It's so hard for me to not suddenly be back in the shoes of my childhood self that desperately wanted this life and to feel dependent on having to prove myself again. I am an adult. I have proven myself. I have a whole life outside of that now. And I have security and safety and stability. But as I keep hearing people

doubt that this is real, it feels like I'm just a child having to prove myself again and nothing I will ever do because apparently my life isn't enough proof. So it feels like nothing I ever do will be enough to tell people that I was hurt and that I was abused and that I wasn't sick and that I deserve more. Yeah, I mean, it really, I'm so sorry. I just, yeah, I mean, it's horrible. And it's an erasure of a whole group of people who've already been through so much. And I think, you know, part of why, I think part of why this narrative

is activating for all of us, because it's activating for me too, because it's not the same, you know, my involvement with this. But, you know, I've had a lot of people, you know, including some extremely spicy emails from my sister's attorneys over the years, tell me that I am delusional, that I am just obsessed with this, that I'm trying to use it to make a name for myself, that, you know, et cetera, et cetera, right? And so like, it's sort of like,

you didn't see what you think you saw and your life experience is not valid. And what you have to say about this, you know, in your case, like your personal experience, in my case, again, my personal experience of like growing up with this person and seeing all these things. And like, that doesn't matter. It didn't happen. It's not what you think it is. And you're

victimizing this other person by saying it is. And yeah, I mean, I go through the same thing, right? Like even, I talked about this last season, we were talking in depth about my sister's case, even going back through those files, I am always looking for something that could be a plausible explanation. And at one point, you know, because Tina, our lead producer, was going back and forth with my sister Megan, she, you know, sent them specific questions for comment, right? We wanted to give them every chance to say anything that they have to say. We've always been open with that. And so, you know, we put together this list of questions and I, between that and the deadline,

which they did not opt to answer those questions, between that and the deadline, I really had this thought where I was like, what if there's an explanation for all of it? What if she has some really good answer to all of this? And it's like, because there's part of you that still wants that. And I think what I want people to understand too is that like we go through this doctors go through this too having one of these cases on their hands is a nightmare partly because it can play out like this one has and ruin all of their reputations for the rest of their lives also just because they've had their trust violated

they've been used to abuse a child that That's horrific for them. They would much prefer that there is some logical medical explanation for what is going on with a child than that it is abuse. They are not out there hunting and trying to make a case for that abuse. That doesn't make any sense. There is no motive for them to do that.

It just creates problems for them. And like then they have to deal with trying to help a child in a system that's like not built for them. And like, then they have to deal with trying to help a child in a system that's like not built for that. And so it's nobody's idea of a good time, you know? So yeah. And I just worry about like the effect that this has all had on having on all survivors that are hearing this story. And I mean, yeah, I think you and I can both speak to like, we did the pilot group of survivor peer support group together we co-facilitated that and like having that experience of like listening to people tell their stories and

just like watching everyone's face and being like what like me too me too me too me too and just like where the the patterns are so similar and for me like the first time I met the APSAC committee which was the first time I met anybody who knew anything about it like telling them my story and being like are you guys ready I have a crazy story you're gonna be so shocked and then just like watching their faces be like yep yep check check check and just like they'd seen everything before and so yeah again like to then be told oh yes this incredibly similar thing happened to all of you and yet it's not a real phenomenon it doesn't exist okay so just a couple more questions I wonder what you think about this idea that is really being attached to this narrative that Beata died to save her daughter.

Yeah. A lot of thoughts. I think... My brain's like, there's so many thoughts. I mean, my mom has attempted in front of me a decent amount of times. And yeah, there's always, well, there's always two stories with my mom where it was always either like, um,

she was like really struggling, you know, because of being a victim to different things or being sick or whatever. Or she was like struggling, supposedly, because I was like a bad kid. So there was always like one or the other. But either way, there was always like a lot of things going on with that. And I mean, I very much could see if the same thing sort of thing happening in with my case, if it had gotten to a point where I had actually been separated from her. Well, I mean, I guess when I was separated from my mom because of the alcoholism, within a couple of months, my mom ended up in an induced coma in the ICU for three weeks because she drank so much. And I still am working through that and not blaming myself for it because it very much felt like, oh, this happened because I was removed from her. This

happened because she needed me. We were, you know, it was us two against the world and suddenly she didn't have me. So if I had just stayed, then it would have been different. Yeah. So kind of similar in like that sort of a sense of the letter that was written and all of that sort of stuff. Like I could see my mom writing something very, very, very similar. And I think. So sorry, here you're talking about the suicide note from Beata and what she had to say to Maya. Yes. I, yeah. I mean, there's so many times in my life that with how enmeshed me and my mom were that it was like, like I said, simultaneously, it was the only reason my mom was alive is because I was with her. And then simultaneously, the reason that she didn't want to live was because I was bad. So there was like a mix, very mixed messages. And to this day, sometimes I'll be like, oh, maybe if I just

lived with my mom, she would be okay enough. And like, I could take care of her and she would be able to like live a different life than what she's living. So it's like, I hear all of that. And I also, you know, I have struggled with suicidality. I have been hospitalized for attempts and I'm grateful that Iality, what I've seen from friends that have struggled with this or things that I've read or learned and all of that. There's often it's more attempts usually come in because of feeling trapped or feeling like there's no way out or things like that, which I'm sure that she was feeling with everything that was going on. But to say that you're doing this to save someone when you know that she was safe in a hospital,

I get that there was different. And there was an active plan to, I mean, we're going to get into all this, but there was an active plan to release her into her father's custody. So, I mean, it was not, it doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny. And I worry that Maya could feel guilt

over that happening. And there were some really interesting comments that Maya herself made during the neuropsych eval that she was given at the hospital, where it certainly struck me that she felt responsible for her mother's emotions in a way that did not seem like a normal sort of child parent. Because I can tell you, like, okay, and my kids are younger, but, like, you know, my kids are, like, if I'm visibly upset, they're upset. But, like, they're not, like, out there thinking about, like, you know, it's just like there was sort of an over concern that felt

almost parental, like that, you know, that she was really worried that if she got better, I mean, this was one of the most striking moments in this, that she said that she was worried, you know, kind of intimated that she was worried that if she wasn't sick anymore, that her mom would be sad and that she was already so sad. Okay. What did you make of kind of Maya's comments during that evaluation? I only read part, I think, of the neuropsych eval. So I did not read all of it. I think I struggled with reading the neuropsych eval because, yeah, I had my own neuropsych eval because yeah I had my own neuropsych eval done and I think that I

I had a really bad experience with that and so I think I was I couldn't like objectively read it for what it was very well without my biases kind of taking over yeah and we're going to ask Dr. Mary Sanders about that too. And I think her being a child psychiatrist, I think that'll help give us some, some framework. Okay. So just, just kind of like two quick last things. So I think another thing that struck me is like, I'm so sad for Maya. You're so sad for Maya. I think everyone, hopefully in this situation is prioritizing her. And it's like her, the fact that she loved her mom and misses her mom is not proof of anything in terms of whether abuse happened or didn't happen. Because kids love their parents even when their parents are abusive. Like, I think that's a bit of a

wrong idea that Maya defending her mom right now, it doesn't tell us anything about what actually happened, right? Yeah, that's, yeah. When I look back at the records from when I was like taken out of the home as a teenager and stuff that the guardian ad litem, social worker and court appointed counselor, like stuff that they would write in their notes. Like it was so clear how enmeshed I was. Okay, my mom's the reason I was taken out of the home. I'm the one who did speak up though about it, right?

So I helped get myself out of a dangerous situation. And this was though with regards, sorry, this was with regards to her alcoholism, not the medical child abuse. therapy or to the social worker or things like that. Even after, like I said, I at that point was angry at my mom. I was so angry because I knew about the alcoholism. I knew that what was happening between us wasn't okay. And yet after I got taken out, all I did was fight until they put me back. I fought tooth and nail until they brought me home and then once again that I like bought that too and was like how could you put me back here and want it out again so but it was just like there's always been this back and forth and to this day there's this like back and forth where

I am very aware of the fact that my mom has never and is incapable of loving me or expressing any emotion, really, for that matter. And I can recognize all the trauma and the abuse and all the things that aren't okay. And I don't want a relationship with her. And on that same note, I still love her so deeply and will sometimes star six, seven, call her just to hear her voice. And then I'll hang up because I just need that comfort that I think I'm like getting from that. And I still, like I said, if she called and said that she loved me and she was sorry, there's so much in me that I would want to move back in with her and take care of her.

Because even after everything, like I still, yeah, I still love her so much. And I still do defend her at points and say like, you know, she was sick. She didn't get a chance. She should have been able to get help when she was a kid and didn't get the help that she needed. And it turned into who she is now and all of that. should have been able to get help when she was a kid and didn't get the help that she needed. And

it turned into who she is now and all of that. Like I still have so much compassion for her. And I think, yeah, just in general, I have a lot of compassion for people that most people wouldn't and that most people never will. And I don't see that very often with like 99.9% of the population. I think most people just don't see in other people, which I very much attribute to the violence. And I have like a sticker that says like, you'll never know the amount of violence it took to become this gentle. And I really, that like always, I will read it a lot of times in support groups with survivors and a lot of people get really emotional when they hear that because it's just, it's just, it's true. Like no matter, because of what we've been through, we have way more compassion and empathy and it's, yeah. Because it's like a, it's a survival mechanism essentially.

Yeah. Yeah. survival mechanism essentially yeah yeah so if you could say something to maya like what would you say to maya oh uh wasn't prepared for that type of a question um getting emotional again but if i okay we're a big feelings show yeah can't not have big feelings around at all i guess um i think i would just want maya to know like she doesn't that it's okay like she doesn't have to do this. Like she does not have like, I believe her. I believe that she was sick. I believe that the doc, that different doctors made her uncomfortable and that she like had to do what she had to do and like that she was just in such a survival sort of place like I I see I see the pain that she went through I see all of the different pieces of that and I

I get it I understand it and um I am not accusing her of lying about anything at all. And I don't need her to prove herself. I think she survived. And regardless of, is it that she survived her family? Or is it that she survived the hospital? Or that she survived the whatever? Whatever it is, she survived and like she's gotten to this point and like she doesn't I would just want her to know she doesn't have to

prove anything to anyone anymore and that she can just she can just have a different life she can be she can heal she can still have a voice and heal and like all of that. And she can also keep doing the different athletic things that it seems that she really enjoys doing. And she can keep doing school and keep having like all these different experiences that don't have to do with any of the past. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I want the same for her. And I think one of the most complicated questions for me in even tackling this and honestly, like, you know, the other seasons of the show we've done, we've done with the families it happened to. It's so different to be sort of talking about a case from the outside like this and obviously doing it in such a way that obviously I don't think Maya herself at this moment would appreciate very much. And I sort of thought like, well, you know, I don't know if it would be better. I think for you, for a lot of the other survivors, that reckoning of understanding what happened to them has been really important. But part of that also is because their parent is still alive and they

still have to deal with that person and they need to like understand that person for what they are but as Beata is not I sort of and like it's not my place to say what's best for her obviously but like you know I sort of wonder like maybe whatever story she needs to tell herself about what happened to be okay is fine. And she just needs to like go forward and have a life. But I really hope that the status of being a celebrity victim is not going to define her because now she has been on the cover of People. She has been in this Netflix thing.

And you know that this whole story and this whole narrative has just totally consumed her young life and like I would just like to go see her be normal and like you know not in the spotlight and not having to sort of play the role of the sad beautiful girl at the center of this horrific case you know like I just don't think that is like a very healthy thing to impose on it on a kid so I think like I hope, I hope that whatever is best for her to tell herself about her life and what happened, that she does that and goes

forward and hopefully has good relationships with her dad and her brother and those other people around her that clearly love her, like watching her uncle testify. He clearly adores that girl. I think being put in this position of saying that this abuse is real and somehow that's, we're against Maya is really horrible because we're not. We're for her and we want the best for her. And, you know, whatever she wants to sort of like do is her own business, but I hope she just gets some distance from this. And just as a final thing, you know, we talked about how this is kind of impacting you

and the survivors that we know. So for survivors who are listening to this and who are not yet part of our community, number one, you are welcome. You can get in touch. But like, what do you want to say to survivors who are hearing this and feeling some of those things that you were feeling about sort of having their

experiences and even sort of their entire identity erased by this narrative yeah yeah I think I've been thinking about survivors so much because I know I am far along in my healing. I am like, have a lot more separation and things like that. And understanding and all of that sort of stuff. And a lot of people that reach out, you know, they're just finding out about that they went through this, like within the past week, within the past month, or it's more recent oftentimes. And so I can only imagine like, if this has made me have panic attacks and cry a lot and like has really affected my like mental health and well-being, I can only imagine how it could affect other people to see these things or to hear what's going on and all of that. I think my biggest message to survivors is we see you and like we are fighting

for you still. There is a lot of people that are fighting behind the scenes, on the scenes, everywhere. There's a lot of people that are fighting still and that like we're not we're not going to back down or anything like that. Like our your life matters. Our lives matter and our stories matter. That's beautiful. Yeah. And I'll just add to that that like you you know we we made this show to give you a huge part of the mission of this show is to give voice to this and give survivors a voice. So we want to hear from you if all this resonates with you.

Well, thank you so much, Jo. Thank you. Thank you so much.