Nobody Should Believe Me - BONUS: Unabridged Interview with Jade Miller

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

This week, we are bringing you our full interview with Jade Miller, founder of Peer Support for Multiples and a multiple herself. This incredibly informative and demystifying conversation, goes into Jade’s journey to becoming a peer support mentor and the limitations of therapy for those with Dissociative Identity Disorder. Andrea and Jade also dive into practical ways to support those with DID, the spectrum of dissociation to multiples, and the realities of being a Multiple. * * * Links/Resources:  Check out Jade’s peer support platform and books: https://www.peersupportformultiples.com/ Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. with Jade Miller, who offers peer support for multiples. Jade provides a really helpful perspective on dissociative identity disorder, which is one of the issues we explored this past season and something that is fairly common among survivors of severe childhood trauma. For even more bonus content, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where we have all kinds of exclusive extras

from last season, and you'll also get exclusive episodes with me and Dr. Pax, where we cover everything from the ongoing drama of the Kowalski case that we featured in season three, to Gypsy Rose Blanchard, to the Justina Pelletier case. As a subscriber, you also get all episodes early and ad-free. Also, a reminder that we've got our season four mailbag episode coming up.

So be sure to email us your questions and comments to hello at nobody should believe me dot com. That's hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Jade Miller. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share

is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered

how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is

another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Calling all sellers. Salesforce is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here, innovation isn't a buzzword. It's a way of life. You'll be solving customer challenges faster with agents, winning with purpose, and showing the world what AI was

meant to be. Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. And the reason that I do that is because this is a field where there's not a lot of actual knowledge that's helpful that translates to helping people with dissociative disorders. So there's a lot of is, you know, that that kind of gap between that needs to be bridged between, you know, having that personal human experience. And that is, you know, we always say like with, you know, because I work with Joe also and we always say, you know, that's really that lived experience is its own kind of expertise and it's really important. And yeah, so I am very curious to talk to you about all of this. And I wonder if you could start by just telling us kind of briefly, like, how do you come to this work originally? So I am a survivor of extreme abuse from childhood. I think they call it organized abuse now. It used to be called ritual abuse. There's a lot of terms for it. So that was part of my history growing up as a little child, probably from infancy. And I did not really have any memories of it until my early 20s. But I did have a long history of mental health struggles, and nobody could really figure out why.

Also survivor of narcissistic abuse by my mother. And so trying to figure out like at 11, why am I suicidal? Why am I cutting? Why did I develop an eating disorder later? Just all of these things. It was like my childhood was a big blank. So I didn't like, there was nothing for me to work with because I didn't remember anything. So in my early 20s, which I have been told is very young for this type of thing, but in my early 20s, I started getting flashbacks of ritual abuse. Now, most people don't start getting flashbacks until their 50s or even 60s. So that is very young. I don't know why it happened for me so young, but it did. And I had

no idea what was going on. I thought I was going crazy. I thought it was another mental health struggle. I really didn't know what to make of it. I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know what it even was. And then at the same time, I slowly came to the realization that I was probably a multiple, which is the word for someone who experiences multiple selves sharing a body. So those two things together kind of made sense. And they also kind of made most of my struggles from life make sense. But I also didn't know what to do about it either. And so I've been in a healing process since 2005-ish. And most of what I found from that is that there's not a lot of resources for people

that are actually helpful. There's lots of books. You can read books. There are therapists, if you can find them, that say that they have knowledge of dissociative disorders, but like the large majority of my clients already tried working with a dissociative disorders therapist and it was not helpful for them. So for me, it was a little bit of like a cost barrier because I was a young single woman trying to just pay for an apartment and all of that. Some of it was a cost barrier, and some of it was just like all of the experiences I'd already had with the mental health system were anywhere from mildly to severely traumatizing. So I didn't really want to work with a therapist anyway, and I wouldn't

have been able to afford it, even if I could have. So my own healing journey has been very non-conforming to what someone's typical journey would be. But I've done a lot of self-education and just my own healing process has helped me sort of figure out some things that can be helpful for people. Wow. I'm almost overwhelmed listening to you talk between that, your experience and the experience of so many of the Munchausen survivors I've talked to because everything from that sort of like experience of, you know, that blank, those blanks in their memories to like having those revelations later in life. I'm curious to know, is there any thought as to why that happens so late in life? Because I've definitely heard from people that sort of had those revelations around 40.

I've heard from some people in their 20s and 30s. It's sort of obviously very situationally dependent on if they get some distance from their perpetrator, if they get sort of that outside perspective that can kind of trigger that. But it's really, really strong parallels that I'm hearing. And I think, you know, a lot of the survivors we have spoken to have suffered with some form of dissociation. So I wonder for us if you could give us like a working definition from your perspective that you like for being a multiple. Sure. I mean, very simply, I would say being a multiple is having one body that has many selves in the mind. So you have many independent selves who share one physical body. And most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can

happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Now, there are another group of people that identify as multiple, and this is where it can get really tricky with the language because they identify as multiple, but they do not identify as trauma being the source of their multiplicity. A lot of infighting in the community. There have been a lot of attempts to come up with different labels so that we can differentiate who is talking about what, but it is generally well understood that most of the time it comes from extreme and prolonged trauma.

Yeah, and at a really young age, right? Yes, usually beginning very young. Yeah, I'm reading some of your writing and watching a couple of your videos. I think like a lot of us, a piece to this that I, in talking to Joe about their experience, a piece of this that I really relate with from having done some, you know, trauma therapy of my own is that sort of concept of the inner child, right? And I think that's something that like a lot of people relate with. And can you kind of talk to us about how you conceptualize that? Because that's a big

part of your work and that's, you know, what your books are about. Like, can you talk to us about how you conceptualize that? Because that's a big part of your work and that's, you know, what your books are about. Like, can you talk to us about that sort of concept of talking to either the child within yourself or maybe multiple children within yourself? Yeah, I think a lot of people who don't identify as multiple would probably relate to having an inner child and whether it's, you know, one inner child, that's a composite of all of their childhood, or it's different inner children who embody different experiences of being a child, I think maybe there are more than one age or more than one parenting, to act sort of in a parenting role to your own inner child. Because otherwise, you will be looking for other people or even other things like addictions to try to meet that need or heal that pain if you don't do that for yourself. And of course, we do need people like other people can meet a lot of those needs for us. But I think it has to be balanced with us trying to meet our own needs.

So how did you get to know Joe? Because I know that you and your work have been incredibly helpful to them and talking to you for 10 minutes, I can see why. Yeah, you guys have such a shared experience. But can you tell us a bit about how you got to know Joe? Yeah, Joe has been following me on Facebook since I've had a Facebook presence, which has been since I think 2014. And I honestly can't remember because I talked to so many people, whether they've been in any of my small groups or not. I facilitated different recovery groups over the years. I used to moderate a big Facebook group for dissociation education. So I can't remember how we started talking, but I do know that I've witnessed a lot of their struggles over the years and just tried to be an

encouragement for them. Just tried to be supportive. And they just seem like such a sweet and caring person. And I so admire all of the work that they're doing. I just so admire that they've recovered and that they're doing this work with you. I just really, really admire them as a person. So they've just always been super sweet to me and I try to be supportive to them. Yeah, no, they are a light in the world for sure. What's up, Spotify? This is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour.

We didn't have any guitar picks and we didn't have time to go to the store. So we placed an order on Prime and it got there the next day, ready for the show. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Playoff football is here with BetMGM. And as an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, BetMGM is the

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Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So I'm curious for you, what motivated you to sort of take this, take your story public, essentially? Because that's always something I'm really interested in being a person that hosts a podcast about, you know, where people talk about their very difficult things that they've been through. I just wonder what that, you know, what made you decide to tell your story in

that public way? Was that really more about like offering support to other people? Was it about kind of debunking kind of some of the myths of this or what led you to that? A little bit of both, honestly. Like I've read a whole lot of the stories out there of people who identify as multiple. And I just feel like a lot of the impression that people are left with is that this is this sensationalized spectacle that, you know, is very odd and unique. And I just don't agree with that perception. And I don't think it really helps us either though my story itself is probably not that common, but to kind of show that we are all connected and we're all on this spectrum somewhere.

So there's no need to be afraid of people who are multiple. There's no need to be awkward around them. There's no need for us to have to hide. I don't think. I mean, I think if this is something that's more culturally understood and accepted, then we wouldn't have to pretend like we don't have this or that we haven't been through what we've been through so just lots of different reasons but mostly mostly what you said yeah um i i wonder what are

you know when we talk about this is obviously something with a huge stigma and i'm sure a lot of that is not helped by the media portrayals of it because the ones i can think about top of my head are like the ones where someone, one of their personalities is a serial killer or something like that. So, I mean, can you talk a little bit about what does the media get wrong about multiplicity? Yeah. The biggest thing I think is that there's something dangerous about us because they just love to do the lazy writing of like, oh, well, this mystery is solved by this person having a serial killer personality. So I don't think any multiple is any more likely to be a serial killer than anyone else in any random cross section of the population. And honestly, like because of our trauma histories, most of us are more likely to be hurt by someone else than we are to hurt someone so um i think that's probably one of the biggest things and i think too that they make a lot of mistakes about like portraying the switching that we do as this

like big dramatic noticeable like dissociation is about hiding and blending in and being able to function even when we shouldn't really be able to function. So I have met some systems that do switch very dramatically, but that's not common. That's not usually the norm for multiple systems. Yeah, because I'm thinking about when it's been portrayed on screen, you know, it's like the person like suddenly turns around and they're like wearing a different hat or something and they like have a completely different voice and they're like so-and-so's here and it's like obviously extremely cartoonish. I'd love to hear from you you know if you can give us sort of a better viewpoint on what that feels like what you mostly see you know obviously no person's experience is monolith but like what is a more typical presentation of being a multiple? Like,

if you were around someone who was having that experience of switching, like, would you notice typically? Or would it be, you know, what would that normally present like? Well, I think for me personally, because I have the knowledge I have, I am more likely to notice. But I think by and large, culturally, it probably happens a lot and people are socialized not to notice. So it could feel more like an energy shift from the person, or it could feel like a mood shift. That's probably what people call it most of the time. If they're seeing that in someone that they're close to and not comprehending that, no, this person is actually a multiple, they probably see things that look like extreme mood shifts and they may be extreme sometimes,

but they may not even be that extreme all the time. Rarely do people use a different voice, but I mean, the voice that we have is the voice that we have. So, I mean, they might be using a slightly different tone or a slightly different, I don't know, like timbre or voice, but it's, I don't know that it would be that noticeable unless you know what you're looking for. Yeah, that's really fascinating. And just as we're talking about this, I mean, I think like, you know, something we say to someone when they're like, sort of everyday interactions, you say like, oh, you seem really off today, or you seem not yourself, right? Like, that's, yeah, that's a really, you know, quote, sort of like normal behavior. And I think, you know think there is so much of this, actually, that is, it sounds like, a lot more relatable than the sort of very cartoonish portrayal that we mostly see in the media.

So that concept of, I think whenever we're really close with someone, we can kind of tell maybe when they're going back to their, when they're reg when they're like regressing, which is something that every person does and like in a given situation or like how people sound different around people they grew up with and they might sound around co-workers or sort of that like code switching that people do. I mean, I think there's like, there's many versions of this that are, that are very relatable and it sounds like it's really just more, this is on a spectrum, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I've heard a description that kind of irritated me at the time, but I actually think it has some merit to it. It's like if you had six identical, like what do they call them? Sex tuplets who were all imitating each other. Because your body doesn't necessarily change and your voice doesn't necessarily change.

There can be like shifts in voice. And it is amazing sometimes how much the same person's voice can vacillate and even their body language. But for the most part, you kind of have to know what you're looking for. You know, when I talked to Joe about this, and we've known each other for quite a long time, and I've only recently talked to them about as we were getting into making the show and this was really coming up and they decided it was something they wanted to talk about, you know, more publicly is really the first time that we've had long conversations

with each other about it. And the way they described it, I really liked this metaphor. They said, it feels like they're on a bus full of people and sometimes they're driving the bus and sometimes someone else is driving the bus. They're always there, but like they're on a bus full of people and sometimes they're driving the bus and sometimes someone else is driving the bus. They're always there, but like they're not always completely at the wheel. And that sometimes that's been very extreme where they had, you know, periods where they got somewhere that they didn't know how they got there and that kind of thing. And that was really scary. But these days it's mostly like they're always aware of their surroundings, but sometimes they're just not completely in the driver's seat. I mean, again, I think everyone probably has a slightly different experience of it, but I mean, is your experience kind of analogous to that or do you have sort of

a different way of conceptualizing it? It is these days. It wouldn't have been in the beginning. Like in the beginning, it was more like you're either driving or you're like in the back of the bus. Okay. Okay. That's, more extreme version of dissociation. That must be really terrifying. It can be. It definitely can be. And I mean, I think people don't necessarily understand that like there are situations you can be in as a dissociative person that are also traumatizing. I mean, there was a time when there was just so many traumatic things going on that I, as a part, wasn't present for about a month. And when I came back, people don't understand that like,

this is traumatizing too, to realize that you've missed a month and you don't know what's happening with work and you don't know how your child is and you don't know anything. So that itself can be traumatizing. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what does that feel like? I mean, do you feel like you're sort of literally haven't been there and you sort of does it you experience it as though you sort of almost black out for a month and then you're back? And I mean, how do like during one of those periods, how were other people understanding what was happening to you or were they not? They weren't. So it's like someone came into your house and flipped the calendar and changed the clock. And that's all you know. And there's evidence of things that have happened in these other dates that supposedly went by, but you don't have any neural traces to it.

Yeah. And that must be extremely isolating. I mean, because that's not something, I think there are these other things that sort of, you know, people understand pieces of, but that's obviously on an end where that's a pretty unique experience. What do you, so you mentioned that a lot of people that you talk to a lot of, you know, clients and people who are doing peer support work with have had really negative experiences with therapists. And can you sort of maybe talk us through some of what do therapists and maybe other professionals do that intending to be helpful that maybe is not so helpful? And kind of where is that gap in the lived experience of it and in the sort of academic knowledge of it? Yeah, I think therapists can sometimes approach multiplicity and probably other things too, I don't know, with the idea that they know what's tell the client what their goals should be, which is disempowering for the

client. Because like, if you want them to have goals that they're actually excited about, they need to come up with their own goals. And some of them aren't even appropriate. So that's one thing that I've heard a lot from people. And also, just lately, I've been hearing a lot of talk about therapists saying they'll only deal with the person that they deem as the host or the core. And not everyone identifies as having a host or a core. That's very old language. And I mean, if people identify with that, cool, that's great. That's awesome. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with someone telling people that they should if they don't. So they'll say, therapists might say, well, we're only going to work with the adult self. Well, cool, but the little selves were traumatized too.

So who's going to help them? There may be some logic behind it, like the adult self should be the one to help the little one, but the adult isn't going to know how to do that necessarily. So that's unhelpful in general, if they'll only work with one part, usually the one they deem the important one. So those are a couple of things I've known lately. I'd have to dig back to try to think of some other things that people have said, but just a general lack of understanding, like they need grounding skills. That might be true, but grounding isn't going to stop someone from dissociation if they get

triggered. I mean, that's really for more mild experiences. So, I mean, I could, you know, I could rub a rock all I want, but if, you know, I'm leaving consciousness, I'm leaving. Yeah. It sounds like for you over the years since you've had this revelation, since you've been on this healing journey, that things have gotten better overall. And what are some of the things that really helped you along the way? Yeah, it's a complicated question because I used to be a person of faith. I am no longer a person of faith. And it's not entirely because of the people who helped me, but they definitely contributed to it. So I worked with the healing ministry for about four years. It ended badly. But some of the things I learned while I was working with them are universal and

don't necessarily have to be related to religion. So just slowly coming to realize that all of my inside people are good, even though they may have been forced and coerced and victimized and had to experience a whole lot of different things, they're good. They're innately intrinsically good. So that was a huge revelation for me that really didn't come all at once. It kind of came over time. And I think also just being able to communicate with other people inside, because a lot of times there's this big fear from more guardian parts that the functioning part cannot know about the trauma or they won't be able to function anymore. And so a lot of the work has to do with building rapport between the guardian and the people who are functioning and sort of helping them realize that yes,

they can still function and you guys are actually stronger carrying this together than you are trying to carry it separately. So for me, it had a lot to do with like allowing all of the parts of myself that I could to know what had happened, which can be difficult. I mean, there was a lot of grief. I don't know that I've necessarily processed all of it yet even, but just starting to come to accept that this is what happened and grieving the childhood that I didn't actually have that I thought I had. So just there's a whole lot of different elements. There's a whole lot involved. Attachment comes into it a whole lot. And my broken attachment with the prayer minister that I was working with ultimately led to me realizing that I had to

attach to myself first. And that may not necessarily sound like it makes sense, but you have to have some sort of attachment. And it's different than self-love. You can perform self-love without any attachment to yourself whatsoever. But it's different than self-love. It's just this basic belief that you can and you should put your own needs first. that this happens, dissociation happens as essentially like a protective mechanism, right? Like it is a survival mechanism. So it makes sense that you would feel that like, and I think like that's just anecdotally from talking about survivors and sort of when they started to have these revelations. I think it often is, and I think this can feel a little bit paradoxical because they're like, no, but my life's in a really good place. Like it often is and I think this can feel a little bit paradoxical because they're like no but my life's in a really good place like it often is when they either get some distance or they're in a healthier

you know they're they're in sort of a healthier place or in a healthy relationship or something where actually like then that stuff starts to bubble up and I I wonder if that's sort of like when it feels safe is sort of when it starts to come up because that's when you know I think your brain has a sense of when you can handle things or not, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. That's my sense too. Like people will ask me sometimes, like, you know, I thought things were going better and then all of this stuff started, you know, coming up and now I'm falling apart. And I'm like, well, I see that as a good thing because it sounds like your body and your inside system is feeling safe enough to look at this now.

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About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes. So one of the things I've understood about sort of the evolution of thinking on this um on multiplicity is that there used to be it used to be sort of the rule to try and get folks to reintegrate and i again i'm not super well versed in all the treatments for this but um is that kind of going is there some different thinking about that now of the idea of like essentially

kind of getting rid of the multiplicity and that that may not be the best way to approach it? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things about that. I think that is another one of the antiquated theories that therapists hold on to because if their training was 30 years ago, then that's what they got. And that's another area where they really need to listen to their clients over their training. But functional multiplicity is sort of the term I think that gets thrown around. But the complexity of it for me is that I believe everyone has parts. So I believe everyone who doesn't have the amnesic barriers is a functional multiple personally. Because I mean, I think that's just healthy and human. I think we're born with like a standard number of parts. And I really think the diagnosis should be amnesic barriers. I don't

think the diagnosis should be parts. I think the diagnosis should be, you know, dysfunction between the parts or whatever. But yeah, a lot of people either don't understand or misrepresent what integration is. And integration comes from the viewpoint that the mind started off as a whole and trauma sort of shatters it, like you'd shatter a glass plate. And so logically, people have thought that, well, the answer must be to stick all the pieces back together, like you're gluing together a piece of broken glass, and, that fixes it. And I don't necessarily feel that that's fixing it. I don't see the parts as the problem. And I think that's where I differ from a lot of even therapists is that the therapists feel the parts are the problem. I do not see the parts as the

problem. But my definition of integration, if you wanted to call it that, is that all parts are out all the time. There's no lack of awareness between parts. There's no lack of communication. There's no lack of cooperation. If you had to call it something, I don't know what you'd call it. But for me, if you want to shoot for integration, which again, is totally up to the client, it would be all parts are out all the time. Nobody dies.

Nobody goes away. Nobody's not needed. You need all parts of yourself. Otherwise, you're missing parts of yourself. Yeah goes away. Nobody's not needed. You need all parts of yourself. Otherwise, you're missing parts of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that really does resonate with me. I mean, it sounds like maybe you're sort of thinking like, okay, everyone is sitting at the table, right? But no one is like, no one has to go away. No one has to leave. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense that sort of if you had a certain part that you developed that for a reason. And that, yeah, I mean, it almost seems kind of like cruel to tell someone that they have to get rid of all those people that are part of them.

That doesn't necessarily make very much sense to me. But so I wanted to tell you when I was going through and I was looking at your website and looking at your social media, I stumbled upon something that kind of made me oops. Because I realized that when Joe was explaining their experience of this to me, I was like, wow, that's fascinating. And I understand that this is not maybe the most helpful thing, although understandable why people would think this is very interesting. And those of us that are just interested in psychology, but maybe why is that not maybe the most helpful thing to say to a person? Well, I mean, I personally loathe the word because I've heard it so many times. And it's usually from people who don't have any personal investment in me other than just, you know, whatever entertainment value they can get.

And so I just feel personally that the word is dehumanizing or otherizing maybe would be a better word. I usually hear it from people who are looking at my life and even my selfhood as something that's a source of entertainment for them. And it really invalidates the trauma that those pieces of me represent. So like, how would you like for someone to say if you told them, you know, some of their some of your deepest traumas, wow, those traumas are fascinating. Like, it wouldn't really land that well with you. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that does happen to me quite a bit, actually. I mean, well, it's, you know, I think it's really

interesting. And I think that it's okay, because I have a podcast about it. So I mean, like, if people weren't interested in it, then I wouldn't, you know, wouldn't be able to educate people. And I think there's always like that. It's like a really interesting line. But I do know exactly what you mean, right? And obviously, with me, with Joe, I am very invested in them. But it's something I've never heard someone describe. And one of the things that's so beautiful and unique about Joe, and I think that just in talking to you today, you obviously share, is a very profound ability to describe that

experience in a way that people can understand, that is very relatable, that is, you know, not everyone can put experiences this come most people cannot put experiences this complex into words and so I think like I always look at it I guess and I I completely understand I think especially with multiplicity because the depictions of it are so cartoonish that people are just like wow weird tell me about that like yeah I completely understand that um I think you, with Joe having known them for so many years and having known how they are in the world to know that this is something they were experiencing all the time is just really surprising. And I think it made me realize how little I sort of understood about

this piece of their experience. And I think like, it's always my hope. I mean, because Munchausen by proxy is another one of those things where like, I mean, this is, and I have had the same experience as you where sort of the only depictions of it are in horror movies. So that's a really alienating thing to be like, okay, this thing happened in my family

and the only place I see it depicted is not in a context where the humanity of anyone involved is being, you know, is being considered, right? It's just a like, very like, ooh, look at this creepy, crazy mom that did all these, you know, things. And it's sort of, it doesn't, you know, that doesn't honor the humanity of people's experience. And I think that whenever there's something that is particularly interesting to people, that is an opportunity to help them understand better. And so, yeah, I hope that's what we can do with,

you know, with these conversations about multiplicity here. But yeah, that just, that struck me because I was like, oh, that's, yeah, maybe that wasn't like the best thing to say to Joe in the moment. I think the phrase is like, wow, that must've been really hard to go through. Or even if I haven't told part of my story

that I've shared the multiplicity piece, which I don't a lot because I don't expect there to be common knowledge. But even just someone saying, wow, I can see how brilliant you are from having survived all of that, or just acknowledging that this piece of me that I'm sharing might be unusual and interesting in that they've never run across it before, but also it comes from really difficult things. So I think acknowledging both of those things is a helpful response for me. The commentary about the word fascinating, at least on my social media, was a lot primarily addressed to mental health

professionals, because if a therapist says that, to me, that's like a big red flag. I'm like, I think mental health professionals specifically should know better. Yeah, I can see where in a therapeutic setting that would not be the appropriate thing to be like, wow, you know, that's fascinating. So on that note, do you feel in your experience that multiplicity is probably a lot more common than people think it is. Absolutely. And I have good reason to think that besides my clientele, there is a scale I think everyone is probably familiar with if they're mental health adjacent at all, the adverse childhood experiences scale. And if you look at the statistics there, I don't remember the statistics right off the top of my head. I'd have to have it right in front of me.

But there's a high percentage of people that have had at least one. And then even though the percentage goes down slightly, there's a much higher percentage of people that report four or more than the percentage of reported multiplicity. And if you've had four or more adverse childhood experiences, the likelihood that you're using dissociation as a coping mechanism, I feel is very high. So it doesn't mean everyone who goes through trauma dissociates, but it is a tool available to every human for the most part. So I do believe it's underreported. Yeah, I mean, and that makes sense, right? Because I think anytime that you have something where,

number one, the representation of it in the media is sort of cartoonish and not relatable. So people are not going to like see themselves in the serial killer mystery character that finds out that they were the killer all along or whatever. And then there's a high stigma, right? Because this is something, I think this is something where people sort of fear like, oh, you know, if I tell people this, then they'll think I'm, you know, they'll just like, they'll be like, oh, that person's crazy. I mean, basically, like, which is obviously a terrible word to use. But I think that that seems to be obviously the fear. And then, yeah, and then you have in the professional sphere not that much good and updated helpful knowledge about it.

So anytime you have those things going on, I think you're going to have an underdiagnosis problem. Yeah. And I also think there's probably much higher instances in marginalized populations and autistic populations, because just having those identities on their own can be traumatic in the culture and in the world that we live in. So there's, I think there's much higher instances of trauma in those populations. So the likelihood that they use dissociation to deal with this ongoing trauma, pretty high. That's a really good point. Yeah, where you see sort of those layers of, yeah, layers of things going on. So can you tell us about what are the differences between dissociation and multiplicity? I mean, are they different or

are they sort of on a scale? Yeah, it's a good question because the community itself has tried to come up with different language around the terms so that people can understand what they're talking about. So multiplicity and plurality is another term that's used, is anyone who shares a body with multiple selves for any reason. Now, dissociative identity disorder, DID, is considered to be something that develops as a result of extreme and prolonged trauma. Okay. And then is there, it sounds like there's also sort of a spectrum of dissociation that people can experience without having the multiple identity piece. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So on one end, you have like the mild experience, like daydreaming, or even like highway hypnosis, a lot of people have experienced where you just

get lost in thought while you're driving, and you're sort of on autopilot, and you don't remember the ride home. So that's a mild experience of dissociation. And then you've got like moderate where you may have like extreme mood swings and maybe some loss of memory, loss of continuity between those mood swings, but not super extreme, doesn't disrupt your life, isn't super noticeable. And then you have like the full-blown multiple identities who are operating independently and usually outside your awareness. Okay. And that's when you talked about the amnesic barriers.

Is that what you're talking about where you don't have memories of what the other parts are experiencing? Yes. So they're not sort of in communication with each other. Correct. And that sounds like it would be a pretty significant barrier to functioning. Yeah, it definitely can be. Now, most people who are multiples from trauma do have functioning parts. Otherwise, they wouldn't make it so long. They wouldn't make it at all, probably. But a lot of times over the many years that they have to utilize those functioning parts,

the energy that it takes to keep those amnesic barriers in place and even keep their functioning parts functioning, they just wear out. They get exhausted. So some of the amnesic barriers coming down just happens with age because if you don't have someone reinforcing them, like in the case of ritual abuse, if you don't have someone like reinforcing them like in the case of like ritual abuse if you don't have someone reinforcing those barriers they'll just break down naturally over time but it usually takes a while usually takes until 50s or 60s wow and so that's sort of the concept of like the functioning parts are being protected from knowing the full scale what happened yes Yes. Yeah. That's really heartbreaking.

So you touched on this a little bit, but I'm wondering, especially, you know, given that I have someone in my life that I care about very much who has DID, what can those of us who, I mean, just in being sort of better about it out in the world, but for those of us that have someone in our life that struggle with these things, what can we do to be a good support for that person? I think a really good start would be to just ask that person like what they need from you, what they need to be comfortable, what they need to feel supported, because there are probably going to be parts inside that are more shy. And there may be parts inside that really do want to have outside friends. Like, I don't know if people understand that, like, sometimes just being a member of a system

can be very lonely. Like, all you have is your other inside people. And that's not to undermine, like, the importance of them and the camaraderie that can be there. But just being able to have friends, like, as an inside part can be really significant. And I mean, if you think about how much trauma is involved with developing DID, a lot of times they didn't grow up having the just everyday experience of having a bud that they can watch a movie and eat popcorn with. Like you don't have to be willing to listen to flashback memories of extreme trauma. You can just like be open-minded and let whoever, whichever part wants to be out, just be out and be cool with it. You could ask your person, do your parts want to be noticed when they come and go?

If they do, then maybe you can ask every now and then if you perceive an energy shift and just say, hey, who's with me now? And just ask. I think the best start, though, would be to ask your friend because they'll tell you and it may be very individualized Like there's some systems that may just want to come and go and not talk about it and just you know Observe life on the outside and go back in when they're ready. So it really just depends on that system. That's that's great advice um, well, this has been so helpful and I I just think this is like a really beautiful, this gives us a really beautiful framing for how to look at this and hopefully to be better support. So those in our lives who may be struggling with something like this, and I also just

to put some better information out there into the world, because one of the best things we can do in telling our stories is to help others feel a little bit less alone. So thank you so much for helping us do that. I really appreciate you having me. It's been such an honor and very fun. Thank you. Oh, well, would you like to tell us about your books? Because you have you have written a series of books, and I would love to know a little bit about those and where people can find your books where they can find you if they want to know more about you and your work. I have a series of books called the Dear Little Ones series, and they're all written for the inner child or inner children. And they are just letters from me to the inner child. The first one is just in general explaining, like, this is the reason why things happen sometimes. It's not your fault.

This is what you can do to help yourself and be friends with the people inside. The second book is about difficult relationships with parents. So it helps little children understand like sometimes parents aren't the best parents and they get to choose what they want to do about that when they get older. And then the third one is actually about integration. So it's explaining that if they want to integrate, it is a choice that they get to make. But integration does not mean dying or going away. It just means everybody is needed and everybody is out all the time. So those books are on Amazon. I think we can do bulk orders on IngramSpark. And my website, if anyone wants to

talk with me or work with me, is Peersupportformultiples.com. Well, thank you so much, Jade, for being with us. Thank you. I really appreciate you guys having me. It's been so fun, and it's great to meet you. Oh, it's great to meet you, too. This is really wonderful. I just really, I love, I love getting to have these kind of conversations for work, and this has just been extremely helpful. And I know our listeners will really love hearing from you. So thank you so much for your time and expertise.

Thank you so much. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we

are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024, zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Britney is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell

their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.