Nobody Should Believe Me - Catching Up with Mishelle and Aunt Sabrina

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

In this follow-up to Season 6, Andrea reconnects with Mishelle and her aunt Sabrina to talk about life after sharing Collin’s story. They reflect on what it’s been like to have this information  out in the world, the reactions from their community, and the personal toll of public disclosure. Mishelle shares major life updates, while Sabrina speaks about the mix of relief and vulnerability that comes with finally being heard. * * * Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are bringing you something really special as we close out the year here at Nobody Should Believe Me. That is a check-in with Michelle and her aunt Sabrina from season six. And boy, do we have a lot to unpack with them about what's been going on since the season aired last summer, which was five minutes ago. 100 years. But before we get into all that, I just wanted to say thank you for all of your support this year. I cannot tell you how much it means to me. 2025 was a big year for the show. We put out two full seasons. I think they were our best work yet, and you all seem to agree, so thank you. And we also put a new episode on the air every week. It was a lot. And I'm endlessly grateful to my team for all of their amazing work this year. That's Mariah, Greta, Nola, Aaron, and

Robin, as well as Taj and Nicole, who worked with us on the main seasons, and of course, Dr. Bex, who does most of my Patreon episodes with me. I'm so lucky to have collaborators who not only help with the massive undertaking of keeping this show going, but are also fantastic to work with and really understand and support the mission of this show. Now, I'm assuming that most of you don't know much about the vagaries of the podcasting industry, so you may not realize what an absolute miracle it is to be able to make a show as ambitious as nobody should believe me independently. Podcasting, like most industries in 2025, is very volatile, and the fact that you keep tuning in, that you take time to rate and review the show and share it with friends, that you join our paid

subscriber feeds, that's what makes this all possible. The fact that we're not beholden to a corporate media company is exactly why we're able to tell the stories the way that we tell them. Those of you who've been around for a while will know that I tried working with a big media company, and it didn't go so well. Yet here we are. Three years later, humming along because of you. I know that 2025 has been a really tough year for a lot of us, and I know that the stories that we tell in this show aren't exactly comfortless.

But I am comforted by the community that's coalesced around this show, by the acts of bravery large and small that I witnessed in my reporting, and by the fact that there are so many people who really, really want to make a better world for kids. Thank you for being one of those people. I'm wishing you all a calm and restorative holiday, season. Remember, the battle is important, but so are you. We will be right back with our conversation with two very brave and lovely women, Michelle and Sabrina, and as for me, I'll see you in

26. Hello, I have exciting news. I am officially taking this show on the road next year. I'm going to be doing a series of Nobody Should Believe Me live shows next March. I will be in Los Angeles on March 7th at the Regent Theater. I'll be in my hometown, Seattle, at the Triple Door on March 18th. Then I'm headed to New York City for a show at Sony Hall on March 25th. And I'll be wrapping up in Chicago on March 26th at the Den. Tickets for all shows are on sale now. You can find a link in the show notes or on our website. We're going to have special guests, meet and greets, and more at these shows. We're going to have a great time. So go get your tickets now. Hope to see you out there. Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show. Now, podcasters

don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters. And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE. I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants. Immigrants make this country great. So nice to see both of you, Michelle and Sabrina. I think you're just officially Aunt Sabrina now on the show and in life. That's your everybody's on.

That's what a couple of our listeners said. So first of all, how are y'all doing? There I did my y'all, just for you. So Michelle, we have had a couple of follow-up conversations with you. but Sabrina, we have not talked to you since we were with you last May in Georgia. And so let's start with you and just how are you doing? And how has this been for you to have this out in the world? Well, it's been different because a lot of people here locally knew, kind of knew the situation or they thought they knew the situation.

they were shocked when they started listening to the podcast and I get a I mean like and everybody's had hundreds of questions for me but it's like I just I didn't know I didn't realize that's what I get a lot of so there's been a lot of that kind of contact like I didn't realize I have had people reach out to me saying you know they remember things incidents from school and stuff, but a lot of people are just, for lack of better word, shell shot around here, just listening to it because people that remembered really didn't know how deep it was. Yeah, and I imagine that's obviously, as we talked about, you know, Hazelers is a small town, and I mean, how has it been?

Is it like, are you seeing people in the grocery store and they're saying things? Or, I mean, is it kind of a, yeah, how did it sort of hit the community there, do you think? Well, I see, I get a lot of people when I am around town that'll run up and just, I didn't know. I didn't know the situation. And then I didn't know that you and her were sisters. And it's brought up a lot of mostly positive stuff. I mean, most people have been super supportive. And are like, I hope y'all get justice.

I hope, you know, you get the answers you're looking for. Of course, you've had a couple of people that are going to believe what they want to regardless and are negative. But, you know, you just blow that off and, you know, just go on because that's really all you can do. Because if they hear the story and they choose not to believe it, then they choose not to. So there's nothing I can do about that either way. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, and whatever you feel comfortable sharing, but in terms of people,

not believing, are there some people that just, I mean, I don't even know in this particular case would be interesting to think about sort of what not believing even looks like given sort of the detail that things were laid out on in the show. And is it people that have actually listened or is it people that are just sort of reacting to the idea of it in your experience? More or less, I think it's people that haven't actually taken the time to listen to the whole podcast and they're just reacting to the, nobody can really do that kind of thing. or I knew her. I knew your family or things like that.

But, you know, I'm like, like, please go listen. You know, just please just listen to the whole thing. And if you still don't believe it, that's fine. That's your opinion. But like I tell people, this wasn't a podcast that was put together overnight. There was a lot of research that went into it, like months and months and months and months and months of research. And there's evidence to back up what we've said and the things that have been talked

about it's not just if we randomly came on here and made up a pile of stories and that's what I tell them and I've had a couple come back and said wow you know I can't I just that that's unimaginable and it's kind of changed their opinions when they actually went and listened to the podcast in its entirety but there are a couple that just oh I just don't believe it so it is what it is for them I guess yeah no that makes sense and and how has that felt to have all that just public? I mean, what, like, what's that? You kind of talked about people's reactions and how is it felt to just sort of have this out in the world for you? Has it been a relief or has it felt really, like, exposed or what's kind of been your experience

of it? You know, it's a mixture. It has been relief, like just to get it out there. People know when you don't have to kind of not talk about it. You've talked about it. it at this point and but then there is this um man i hope nobody sees me uptown and ask me about that today because today's not a good day for that you know some some days it just really hits you a lot harder than other days and so some days i can talk about it and do really well talking about it and some days i'm a basket case when i talk about it so and it it's a real conditional on how people approach me with it i think as the how my response is with it Yeah, and that's just a good reminder for everyone listening and for all of us on this call

that just because you know about a terrible thing that someone has been through and they chose to talk about it at one time does not mean that you can rush up to them and ask them questions about it at any time. You still need to check in with that person and make sure that now is an okay time to talk about that and that they're okay talking about it with you in that moment because it is not a green light to everyone to ask questions at any time. Right. Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And I know you have some specific thoughts on the fallout that we'll kind of get to

and maybe some thoughts on the Guthey Jackson Foundation's handling of this, which we obviously talked to Michelle at length about. But before we dig into that, I just want to say hi to Michelle. And Michelle, how are you doing? You've had a lot of life changes since we even last talk to you. Yeah, I am good. I am freezing. You know, it's been, it kind of dawned on me, which is crazy that it just dawned on me recently, but it did really dawn on me recently, just how crazy and how much has happened in just the span of not even quite a year yet and a lot. And, you know, so I moved like over a thousand miles away from that little town of Hazelhurst and moved away from my aunt Sabrina. You don't say me about that. But yeah, you know, it was the best move for the time, you know, for my family.

But yeah, it's just been, it's been a roller coaster. I mean, it's been, and the holidays are hitting kind of hard on an emotional level, you know. The realization kind of struck me again, really recently that this is the first full holiday season. I'll spend completely no contact with my parents. parents, like 100% no contact. We've been low contact on a couple of different occasions around the holidays. But this is the first year I'll be like 100% like nothing. And so that's been really heavy in a way that I like didn't expect on top of, you know, moving a thousand miles away. So there's just, it's just been a lot, you know, it's been a lot. But I think overall

I'm doing really well. Yeah. Well, it's good to hear. And yeah, I mean, it's, that is really heavy and I remember like that first Christmas that you know since she was my older sister there had never been at Christmas that we weren't together and that was just it was brutal like that I remember that hit me really hard and yeah even if your relationship with that person's complicated and all of that it's still really a feels like a big deal to not have them in your life at all and yeah so I wanted to ask so I know you haven't Michelle spoken to your mom since the podcast came out. Is that right? Not since it came out. No. Well, I take that back. I sent her one text message because she thought it was an okay thing to text my children, which it was a short-sighted

on me because I did not go and block her number off of my children's devices because honestly it just slipped my mind because they had not had any communication on so long. And she took it upon herself to text my children, which I immediately text her and was like, this is not appropriate. and I'm not sure what it is that made you think it was appropriate. But she read it and never responded. So that's been the only any form of communication since it's aired. Yeah. And what about you, Sabrina?

Have you heard from Lisa at all? I have not had any contact with her since before the podcast came out. I don't predict she'll be in contact with me. I was hoping maybe I would hear from Angeline, but I haven't really heard from her. Well, I haven't heard from her at all either. How has that been for you? Is that hard to sort of have, again, like obviously your relationship with both of them had been strained anyway, but I know that sort of putting all of this out there could really feel like a kind of final step and like a final severing. Like I think it seems to me both of you knew going in that this was probably the end of your relationship with certainly Lisa and possibly Angela as well. So how has that been for you? Well, I definitely knew going in that Lisa would probably never talk to me again, but saying that and knowing that and then having it really be real kind of hits different because it's like you expect her not to talk to you. And people, I think people are under the assumption that because we came out and told the story that we hate her and we wish bad for her.

and that's not the case she's my sister and I love her just like she's Michelle's mom and Michelle loves her so you still you don't wish harm on people you don't want you know but it just hits different that reality of okay

the last time I talked to her was really probably the last time I will talk to her and Angeline kind of hits a little bit different because we were close at one time she was close with my children at one time

I don't think any of them I've talked to her at all. So that's kind of being a different mindset for them because now she doesn't contact them because of something I did, which they understand the reason why it was done. They understand the reason why we did it. It's just a little, like I say, when you really know that that's probably the end of it and then really realizing after all these months

that it really is the end of it. But then there's a sense of peace that comes from not, having to wait on that other shoe to drop with Lisa, that's like very free. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember really experiencing that as well when the show came out. And like then, especially when I took the step of, you know, saying her name and saying all the details I learned about the case. And like, you know, at that point, I hadn't spoken to her in seven years, seven, eight years, probably. And so, but even so, it was like, once I do this, Like that's it. I remember feeling kind of like, well, like, that's irrational. Your relationship was already over. But it's like there's different kinds of over, right?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, we're going to get into what's going on with Angeline. And where in the world is Lisa McDaniel in a moment? But since we had spent quite a bit of time talking to Michelle about Gutham. Jackson's handling of this situation in the sort of initial days, weeks, months after the show came out and the revelations about Lisa. I just wanted to give you a chance to weigh in on that if there was anything that you wanted to say about the situation. Oh, there's a lot that I really could say. I'm very disappointed and the response that they gave. It was such a

generic. Well, we've covered it. We took care of it. It won't happen again. To me, they didn't really address the issues and the further issue is okay, they got rid of Lisa, but what about all those people

that Lisa brought in with her? You know, it just brings a lot more issues for me a lot of a lot of people that probably kind of have the same mindset that Lisa does and that's concerning for me because that community needs the research it needs funding it does and I think it hurts it and I think it for me it sheds a very negative light on the foundation because they're like okay well well we did the bare minimum and that should be enough and the bare minimum I mean you need to raise the bar so much higher than

that because you're in such a position, you can do so much, so many good things with your platform, but this for me has just toned everything about their platform. And I just, I wish their response had to been stronger. And I wish they had to really drawn some guidelines that said, hey, we will not do this. These are the steps we will take to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again to protect the people, to protect the patients we need to protect. the patients that Lisa dealt with, they're not protecting because she has their information on her personal devices. So they're not, even in the firing of Lisa, they didn't protect the patients. So I'm really let down and discouraged by that because, like I say, they had such a platform

to do good and this is just ruined their platform for me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I remember Michelle us talking about this and even talking about this with a colleague who was worried that they wouldn't even fire her because there is sometimes, not because of anything about Guthey Jackson, but just sort of about the way that institutions that have a reputation to protect will sometimes respond to these situations because of, you know, just like past experiences that we've all had. And so I think like, I think it's fair to say that like this was not the worst possible outcome. They didn't have the worst possible reaction, but maybe also not the best possible reaction either.

And, you know, I think it's interesting, like you were sort of talking about how people, some people, you know, maybe in the minority, but would have this very strong reaction to the idea of Lisa having done these things without sort of listening to the podcast and absorbing the details. And I think like that is such a real and human thing, right, where it's just like the idea of it is so awful that there's just. like a really strong reluctance to face it. And I, you know, I'm not going to speculate on what anyone at Guthey Jackson sort of is going through emotionally, but I think that's just something

that, like, is so endemic to kind of everyone confronting this abuse, right? It's just like, you have to, it takes a fair amount of courage to look at it in the face and just go, oh, no, this really happened. And I was really involved. And this was my sort of piece of it or part of it. Obviously, you know, mostly, for the most part, unintentional, but, you know, that was, that's a difficult thing. It's a difficult thing. It's not, not to excuse anything, but just to acknowledge how difficult it is. Right. Yeah. So, Michelle, well, let's just talk about what is going on with the rest of your family right now, with your folks, with Angeline, and your nephews, and sort of how this is all played out since we last left Lisa's doorstep there in May.

Yeah. So, and I, you know, I found this out, I think, right before the show aired. Or maybe it was like right after. It was somewhere kind of in the midst. All of that timeline is kind of like, you know, a little intense. Yeah. But anyway, my point with that being I intentionally have chosen not to talk about it publicly because I was really trying my best to respect my sister's

privacy. It happened, like this, you know, thing happened right before the podcast aired after, you know, she knew the dates and my mother knew the dates and all of that. It was kind of finalized. And so I had been just to kind of place us, so this would be back in like May after we did our final interview and we had kind of given Lisa the deadlines because we were, you know, I'd reached out to her for comment and obviously, you know, spoken to her. And so they knew when the air dates were because of that. Right. Yeah. And I had verified with my sister, like what the actual air date would be after everything, all of that was kind of finalized. And we knew to kind of prepare her, you know, as much as I could. And so she went into labor with her second child.

shortly like I think it was like two weeks maybe before the show aired maybe three weeks um and I went over to the hospital there was like a really kind of dramatic thing seemingly happening I don't the details to me are fuzzy because of course they are um but you know she went into labor I went over to the hospital um our mom tried kind of through the nurses and stuff to keep me out and said that I wasn't allowed back and all this and then some very kind nurses of the hospital were like, no, absolutely, you can go back. That's your sister. So I went back to see her and I was in the room with my mother. My mother was there. And so that was really awkward moment. But I saw my sister and I saw my new nephew and they both seem healthy. And, you know,

I talked to her at one point. My mom walks out of the room. My sister then tells me that they are moving away. And like, again, to kind of place us where we're at, like we're all still in Georgia at this point. You know, there's still just a couple of streets down for me. You know, I'm still able to like see her some and kind of keep an eye on things as much as I can. And so she kind of drops this bomb that they're moving about two hours away from us. And I'm just kind of taken aback because the last real conversation I had had with my sister about any of this was she was still very much on the fence. Like she really didn't trust our mom, but like she felt kind of stuck and didn't know what to do. And like, those were her parents. So she was still kind of in the

throes of like, I don't know what to do with all of this information. And so to hear her say, like she was moving with them away, like two hours away from me. It was just kind of jarring because she's also has literally just given birth. I think this conversation happened like 24 hours after she had just given birth. So I'm like, you know, taking a step back. And I'm like, you know, well, when did you decide that? You know, is it something you should maybe put put a little bit thought in, and I'm trying to be really gentle, right? Because she's, I've, you know, I have kids. Like, I know that first several months, but especially the first few days after it's a blur, right? Like, you don't remember anything. And so I'm trying to be really

gentle, but I'm also really taken aback during the conversation. And I leave the hospital that day, and I had messaged her. And I'm like, you know, I really love you and I really want to be here for you and my nephews. And, you know, I just love you and your boys so much. And, you know can you please just like take a beat to think about moving away with them because that's really scary and um i think you're going to be really isolated because you don't really know anybody over there and um i i think she messaged me we had a bit of a tiff um a couple days after that because dhr defax was called um while she was still in the hospital after she had given birth and so she got really upset with me about that um and to clarify i'm not

the one that called DHS. I did not call defects, but I think she kind of knew that, because I was the only other really person, I think, in their close circle that knew she had given birth, because I went to a county outside of the county we were living in to give birth, which is another piece, right? That's just kind of like in the same little checklist of like going to the county over because people had eyes on her in the county we were in. And anyway, you know, we had a little argument about that, but she was still talking to me. And she was still, like, still my sister. You know what I mean?

Like, she was, I could still, she was just like shaken up by it all. And I was really, really scared for. And then she went dark for, like, two weeks. I did not hear from her at all. And it was jarring because I had no idea what was going on. I literally did not hear from her, not a text, not a phone call, not a social media post, like, nothing. There was no social and there was nothing. And this, she posts on her Facebook all the time.

so it was really jarring and I had no idea what happened and her birthday came and went and I tried to reach out to her on her birthday and I heard nothing back from her and it was very unusual and then she I just got a text out of the blue one day and she acted like everything was fine and I was like what is going on where have you been and she finally told me that the day before she was supposed to be she was supposed to be discharged she had some issues with her breathing and she claimed her O2 got down to like in the 80s, I believe, and she ended up in ICU for multiple days, and she has another trache now. But she essentially told me, you know, her oxygen level had gotten so low and that they had to intervene. So she was unconscious in the ICU for multiple days, and they inserted a trache again. So she hadn't had, she hadn't had a trick since she was a baby, right? no no um no she had not i mean there's no way i mean she she left the hospital you know when

she was a baby and um after mom had abused her and once she had the trache removed like yeah she had once she had the track removed she hasn't had it since no not at all um so that was really jarring um and come to find out to make it to make matters worse um some people started reaching out to me that my mom was friends with um and knew because my mom had told them that my sister was in the ICU and was sending pictures of my sister around to the friends that were still around of her unconscious in the ICU with the baby next to her. And so it's just been, if that is not just a continuation of all of the red flags,

I don't know what is. Why would you do that? I mean, if that was my kid, I wouldn't want anybody to see her in that kind of condition. Reproductive care is so important. And did you know that one in four people who can get pregnant will have an abortion? Abortion is an extremely common experience that deserves non-judgmental, compassionate, and personalized care. Our sponsor, CAREFM, gives folks a choice about what type of abortion care works best for them. They have in-person locations with private entrances in Atlanta, Chicago, and the Washington, D.C.

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Save more than 50% on term life insurance at select quote.com slash nobody today to get started. That's select quote.com slash nobody. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. I just want to sort of give us a bit of framing because, you know, again, like you both said at the top of the conversation, And I know that sharing details about Angelin has been one of the most difficult considerations that we've had on this show. I know it's been on your end and it's been on my end as well. I know Angela and I've known Angelin for a long time. I normally would not share details like this without someone's participation.

And it has always been the presence of her two babies that has really changed the sort of. ethical calculus on that. And I know that that's really, obviously, you're also concerned about her and her health, but this is just such a dangerous situation and it's such a scary situation. And so I just wanted to kind of ground us in that for a moment because Michelle, I know this is something you've been wrestling with talking about publicly. And because at this point, you know, despite our efforts and the efforts of many lovely listeners from countries around the world who've gotten in touch with the Birmingham Police Department, there has been no investigation initiated. And, you know, although we know that defects has been called on the family,

at least that one time that we know of, you know, there's been no intervention that we know of. And also, like, it's difficult. It's difficult with what they have to. work with. These investigations are difficult at the, even at the extremes. And, you know, we've also seen how, I mean, we've seen all the failures that happened. And that's not to blame, you know, the people who are currently working there or on this or in the past. It's just sort of how badly the system is set up for this. So, you know, we're sort of back to where we started with the reason for talking about it publicly being that they keep, moving, and I mean, we're speculating about why, but, you know, they keep moving and the effect of

that is that watchful eyes that might have been there as a protective mechanism are no longer there. And so this is sort of, again, the one mechanism that we have that you all have to protect the kids. And so I just wanted to make sure that we set all of that because I know this is not you dishing dirt of your sister or like, you know, or trying to. to sort of punish her, right? I think it's not this, none of this is supposed to be, or none of this is meant to be punitive of Angeline as concerned as we all are about her choices. So I just wanted to make sure we said that. Yeah, I appreciate that. And to be like really clear about it, again, I had debated on like saying anything. Like I really did not want to say anything because

she did tell me that in confidence. And she had not shared it to my knowledge with very many people. and she is very isolated where she's at and in my parents' house. Like, she really does not have the ability to talk to anybody or associate with anybody outside of this small little bubble that Lisa has created. And I was really trying hard to kind of find the line between protecting her and what she's telling me and making sure she has a safe place to tell me things. And the only reason why I decided to talk about it today is because she recently posted her version of the story or a little bit of it on.

social media. And so she's now posting pictures of herself on social media with the trache and kind of told people. And so that's really the only reason why I'm talking about it or had kind of made the decision to talk about it is because she kind of like put it out there. And I and I do know that there are probably some questions floating around about that because I have seen a lot of people that have reached out to me that have listened to the podcast that are still friends with her on social media, kind of thought. following her post. As I'm saying it, question if this is like the right thing to do, right? Because on some level, maybe I should just shut up because there's at least some eyes on her.

I mean, it's all social media. So it can be, I mean, we all know social media. It can be extremely fake. But there's at least people aware of what's going on and then kind of seeing this playing out on social media. And so it at least helps me know that there are people who know what's going on because I've talked to these people and they are following her and they are kind of interacting with her on social media. But that's really where I'm at. It's just I feel like every time I talk to anybody publicly, I'm going to, it's eventually kind of come, going to come down to my sister's not going to be able to justify talking to me anymore because I've said too much at some point because right now I get the strong impression that

she's not supposed to be talking to me. And I'll put it like that. Well, I, I think you're doing what you think the best thing to do. And even though it's social media eyes, it feels somebody, you know, watching because the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand, they think this should be a simple process, but they don't realize it's so hard because not only do you have several states involved, it's multiple counties where they have moved so much and stuff has happened in all these different counties. And like you said earlier, the watchful eye is no longer there when they move from county to county to county. And so it just makes it more difficult. And I just think a social media eye watching, even though a lot of stuff is so fake on social media, I think something's better than nothing because if they're taking the time to reach out to you, at least they care enough to reach out. And I know we personally know, me and my husband Wesley know several people that live in the area that they living in. So we have people more or less quietly trying to get more information and to kind of watch them.

And I say quietly because, you know, they wouldn't know the people that we have contact with there. So I'm trying to help you, Michelle. help. Like I say, any help while at this point is better than none to me. Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. And I think Sabrina, you had said when we were talking about Lisa sending around that picture of Angeline with the Trache and with her baby laying next to her, which is obviously a very difficult image, given all the history, given what that means, having Lisa herself send it, right? And, you know, that sort of coupled with when, you know, one of the things that we heard from patients who'd

been formerly working with Lisa at Guthey Jackson was that because Guthey Jackson did not communicate to their patient population, what had happened in advance of the podcast. During that time period, Lisa had been reaching out to some of the patients she'd worked with and telling them that she was on leave because your father had cancer. And so, you know, This is obviously just adds up to kind of evidence of that pattern, just continuing, right? Medical crises all around her all the time, fabrications about medical crises, because as far as we know, your dad does not have cancer, is that right? No, no, he doesn't have cancer.

And yeah, and I think that's, that is sort of on the bigger level, like what we know about these perpetrators is that it is an incredibly compulsive behavior. there's no reason to believe that they will cut it out, that it will just sort of find a new outlet. I think that's something that people have an experience or don't have any kind of experience with these situations. They assume it just goes away. They assume, oh, and it doesn't.

And what we're seeing is a true picture of how much it doesn't go away. And in the Angelin situation, I love that child to death. and I have tried, me and Wesley have tried and tried and tried to help her. And just situations like her sharing, Lisa sharing Angelyn's picture on social media with her infant child, a newborn child, you know, my question is, what could Lisa have done to that child in that time frame where Angeline was unconscious? Not conscious, you know, stuff like that terrifies me because, you know, one of Angeline's children looked so much like Colin did.

And I've always been like, what's going to happen when he hit the age? Colin did, you know, when all this started happening. And then you have a second one, and then you're sending pictures of your unconscious adult child with her infant child. That's horrifying to me. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just not a photo, I think most of us would think to share, right? just not something you would think like, oh, I'm going to take a picture right now and text it to my friends.

Right. Yeah. And, you know, I think Michelle, you know, we've known each other for a long time. We've known a number of other survivors. And I think you're a lot closer to the survivor experience than, I mean, I would consider you a survivor, but you're sort of not being the main target. and then for me, obviously, being several more layers removed. You know, I think we've learned a lot from some folks about what that experience is like

and how strong that psychological manipulation is. And I think there is kind of, I think sometimes with child abuse in general, but also like this, you know, this form of abuse in particular, right, of this idea of like, and I saw a lot of this sort of around the like Gypsy Rose Blanchard story, which is obviously the one story that most people, you know, have heard of if they've heard of this. And this idea of like, well, she was an adult. Why didn't she just leave? And like, you know, and it's so, it's so short-sighted because she was and she wasn't. You know, she'd been kept in this really dependent relationship. And that's one of the things that we hear really consistently from

survivors, including one that we talked to for our upcoming season, you know, of just that their parent was giving them this constant narrative of you'll never be able to live an independent life. you'll always need me, you know, and really trying to not let them out of their sphere of control. And we've really seen how treacherous it can be for adult survivors to not get sucked back into that vortex. And I think it's really, really hard to watch someone just get pulled back in. I mean, the more I've sort of learned about those folks' experiences, the more I think that that challenge is going to be pretty omnipresent for a lot of survivors. Not everyone.

Like some of them really like the minute they can get out of there, they cut that cord and they just never look back. And that happens also. But I think it's also very likely that they will have a lot of trouble cutting that relationship off. Well, and I think it's really important, you know, something, you know, you had talked about in one of the follow-up episodes we did. And it was like there's these systems in place, right? like nobody truly understands what survivors go through and there's a lot of like in something that's kind of honestly like sat heavy with me is how people so easily it almost seems like had such an easy time being very positive to me because i mean yeah i consider myself a survivor of my mother

of you know somebody of a perpetrator of medical child abuse however i don't consider myself a survivor of medical child abuse. And there is that very distinct, very important difference because I don't know. You know, I don't have that experience. I was not medically abused the way a lot of these survivors are, the way my sister was. And it's really important because, you know, I think people just have an easier time, like, looking at somebody like me and saying, oh, well, she was a survivor and she's doing great. And like, she's doing wonderful. And she's a, and like, the truth of the matter is, like, that's not entirely true. You know, I have had a lot of mental health. issues, even just being around and watching it and being raised by somebody like that. And I

can only, you know, understand from that small piece of it of just how hard and difficult that has been for me. I mean, I'm in 30s now and I'm finally emotionally stable. You know, like, it's taken a really long time and a lot of mishaps. And God forbid, if you guys had talked to me when I was in my early 20s, the disaster that, you know, they would have come from it. But yeah, I just, you know, it just kind of, you know, what you were saying, Andrea, about, you know, it is really difficult for these survivors, if not downright, in some cases almost impossible. And I just, you know, I wish there were like better systems in place and a better support in place for those type of people because they can't come out and turn into an adult and then be a, you know, what we consider as society a functioning adult, right? Like, of course my sister thinks that like she's going to die or her kids are going to die or the right thing to do is to have her kids around. her grandparents and she's stuck, right? I mean, she has literally stuck there. I don't blame her for it. I think there are people out there who probably do. I thankfully, I have been able to stay away from a lot of the, if any, negative commentary about her. And it's not to say, like, it is always easy for

me because there are times where I am vehemently mad at her and I'm very frustrated with her. And I just wish I could shake her and just be like, can you just please see what is going on in front of you and protect your kids. But I also, I know that I can never understand the gravity and the weight and the ropes that these perpetrators have on their children. Yeah. And just to reiterate something, yeah, I mean, people have asked, why don't she just leave? And that has so many different layers to that because they've convinced her that she needs them, that she can't function without them. And honestly, I think her mindset is she can't function without them.

And that's just the reality. Her mental help has took such a hit because of everything she's been through. However, I do realize you can't go through your life and blaming what happened to you as, you know, why you act the way you do. and like with Michelle like I won't get into any details because that's not my that's not my story to tell but you know it hasn't always been easy for Michelle either she had to go through hell and high water watching this stuff and seeing all this stuff and like she said her mental health you know she she's healthy now and I'm so proud of

her she's come for such a long way but it wasn't always like that she struggled tremendously I'm seeing it. So that's something I really want people to understand is we're not mad at... There are times we are mad at Angeline, but we love her and we care about her. And we just want her to be safe and we want her children to be safe.

But in safe, why don't she just leave? That is just not the simple answer that people think that it is because, and maybe I shouldn't say this, then Angeline can't even function at a job for more than about a week a week and a half at the time. So when you don't have the capacity

to go out and function at a job as an adult because you have been so manipulated and you need me, you need me by your parent or your parents. And that's the mindset you have. If you can't go and function

more than a week and a half, two weeks at a job as an adult, you can't, you are kind of stuffed in that place because you just can't you don't have money you don't you know you can't just go sleep on the couch you have kids and that's what people i don't understand why that's so hard for people to understand if you can't function as a job how do you live on your own how do you take care of your kids so i can totally see why she thinks she stuck there and they have convinced her that she has to be there because like i say she can't even function as as a normal

adult as far as just being able to hold down a job. And that, you know, and this, that's critical to be able to do that. Yeah. And I think, you know, yeah, there's so much in what both of you said. There really resonates with me. And I think we do have, you know, I mean, number one, we tie every element of survival, from housing to health care access to everything, right, to the ability to function in employment.

and we are not equipped to deal with any member of society who can't do that for any reason, right? Because they're a disabled veteran or, you know, because they have a long-term illness or a mental health issue. And we, and some people are really quite cruel about that. That's an element of our society that I really don't love. That there is this sort of punitive thing of like, just get a job, you know? And like that as though that is sort of this solution for everything. And I think in all of my conversations about child abuse, I think there is a recognition, A, of how the systems fail, but also why we don't have or how we can move towards a society where this isn't happening, period, where, you know, children do not end up back in a home with someone with people like Lisa and Carrie. and then have to carry the damage of that for the rest of their lives because that isn't fair.

And most people are not, I mean, I think it's been a difficult. I don't want to speak broadly about this population or speak on their behalf because, well, yes, well, I am close to the issue again. I'm not a survivor in that way. You know, but I certainly think like it's going to really depend on people. There are some people that, I mean, are able to go. go on and function in their adult lives in ways that people recognize as healthy and productive, right? They go get their education. They get a good job. They, you know, like a family, they buy a house, whatever all those sort of markers are of people that, and people love those

stories, right? People love to say, like, well, look at that person. Like, they did it. They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, you know? And like, and if they can do it, you know, everyone should be able to do it. And that's just not. That's so far from reality. And I think you know, while we're talking about having better interventions with this abuse and preventing it, hopefully, I mean, we are nowhere near that in the conversation right now. And I, you know, I just had a great conversation with Jim Hamilton, who's a psychologist and a really well-regarded expert. And he was sort of talking about this idea of like what could be some preventative aspects in the health care system, especially not these sort of extreme cases like Lisa. But, you know, I hope we'll get there where we can start talking about how to prevent this abuse from

ever happening. But we're certainly a very long way away from that now and sort of I do think the focus should be on intervention and separation when the abuse is discovered, especially because it's almost only discovered when it is something really severe like poisoning or, you know, suffocating or those kind of things that are really putting a child's life at risk. And I just don't think you should get any more. It's my personal opinion. I don't think we should give people more chances once they've crossed that line. And the reality is those systems are not now in place. So what we have is children who are going to, by and large, be sent back to those households or stay in those households, be raised by those perpetrators, and end up with the same issues that we see so many

survivors struggling with right now. And we have an existing population of adult survivors that we're just finding, right? Who are just coming together and coalescing and coming sort of out of the shadows in any way. And we have to figure out how to take care of them, too. And it's just so complicated, you know, feeling frustration, especially because Angeline has children and it's not just her, that's perfectly understandable. But I really admire both of you for maintaining your compassion because I just don't think we get anywhere without that. And I, you know, when people sort of condemn, this is like that's so unhelpful. And like, yeah, sort of condemnation and judgment. Now, of course, like, there is the complicated factor that, you know, you are technically

an adult in the world, your behavior impacts other people. If you make the choice to have children, your behavior impacts people that didn't have a choice to be here. It is really complicated. But I just, I think maintaining compassion is really the only way forward. And I really wish that we didn't see gainful employment as the only mark of a worthwhile person. That would be great. I'd like to live in that world instead. Exactly. Yeah. Yes, because people don't realize the mental health if you're not your mental health directly affects everything you do and you see the people you see somebody and you think oh well they look healthy why can't they work and for a large amount of the population that's a true statement

but there's a statement of the population that that doesn't just because they're walking around and they look like they're healthy doesn't mean mentally that they're prepared for those kind of situations. So like I'm like you, I would rather live in a world where we could, you know, address that issue and not say, oh, just get a job and that's going to fix everything because clearly it does not. And to be clear, like I, in my 20s especially, like I lost multiple jobs because of my mental health, like, you know, straight up, you know, I was in that position where, you know, and I was, I'm grateful that I had a lot of wonderful people around me who could take care of me and kind of help me even if it wasn't always the greatest. But, you know,

And sometimes that was my parents, you know, like to be clear, there were times where, of course, my mom wanted to be the savior and the hero and would step in and say, oh, yes, please come run to me. Like, you're so right. And like, you're not capable. So just come to me for now. And then one day you will be. And then that one day never comes, right? And when it did come is when I was a problem again, right? Is when I could show up myself as capable.

And honestly, another factor, taking it back specifically to my sister, that. I was going to kind of mention earlier, I think for her and for her situation, it has gotten even more complicated because, you know, Brent and I were talking and I think it kind of occurred to me. And I think even, I think my husband said it. I think, you know, he was like, do you think there's a chance that she's taking the brunt of your mom's abuse? Because she knows now that she's stuck there with her kids is the only way to keep her kids safe. And I do believe that there is unfortunately probably some heavy truth to that because yeah like this you know these perpetrators this type of abuse it is very impulsive I 100% believe that my mom is now abusing

my sister to not touch her children because she knows there are so many eyes on those children there has been multiple defects intervention she knows right she knows the moment one of those babies end up sick the world's coming for and like with angeline she isn't a adult. And so it is easier to slip through the cracks. And you, you know, I've had conversations with multiple people about, well, is there adult protective services we can call in? Is there any sort of route? We can go here to protect her. And at the end of the day, when you talk to my sister, 90% of the time, she seems normal, right? Like, she seems to be within her mind. She's able to have conversations, you know, like you and I are having. And nobody's going to take that seriously,

you know? And I think, I think Lisa very well knows exactly what. what your point was, she very well knows it. And it's sad, it's really sad to me that Angelin's still taking the brunt of abuse, because I agree, I totally think she is. I think she's taking it because, A, I think she doesn't want that for her children, but like I say, her mental health is not where she can function enough to do something else. So she's going to take on the abuse because she knows what can happen to them. And then Lisa knows exactly, oh, like Michelle said, if one of those kids get hurt, they're going to be right there.

But for Angeline, she's an adult. And if she says she's fine, they're just going to take her at her word. We already are not great about handling this abuse when it's children. And it does happen to adults. I mean, we've heard many stories. You know, Brittany Phillips, who is the perpetrator we covered in season two. Her mother died under very suspicious circumstances after she moved to Texas. to become her caretaker, you know, Gypsy Rose Blanchard's mother, D.D. Blanchard, her mother also

died under her care. I mean, it's sort of a part of the pattern for adults to get sick around these folks as well. And there's, I mean, yeah, unless the person is, like, unless you can somehow declare them mentally incompetent, which is a pretty high bar, which is generally a good thing. Yeah, it's just like impossible to intervene. And, you know, in saying there, um, and maybe I'm totally out of line the best. I don't, you know, but, you know, that has made me question Lisa and listening to the other seasons of your podcast, especially when she came out and said that she was on medical ease

because Carrie had cancer. Now, in saying that, I don't believe Carrie was innocent in this whole situation because he knew the situation, but I've just wondered when she said he had cancer, if he was kind of her next target to be blunt about it, I guess. Well, to kind of add some framing, and I'm going to be very careful in how I frame it, because I don't want to give away any, I don't want to like take something that's not really my business and put it out there for the world to hear.

So I'm not going to go into too many details. However, I believe strongly that that's a situation. It's my understanding that my mother, after they moved, did become a caretaker for an elderly person, and that elderly person just recently passed away within the last few weeks. Oh, I did not know that. I don't know that. I just, I don't know.

And we know this because of social media posts and that person's obituary and, yeah. So, I mean, we will say that person was elderly, however. Yeah. Obviously, that is a, that's a scary situation. Yes. Yeah. Because again, and I think we, the reason we are able to sort of give it this framing is because just to sort of remind everyone, well, you know, while we don't have all of the answers about what happened to Colin, there was a lot of alarming evidence about that. And we do know what she did to Angeline. So there isn't a question about what she's capable of. And, you know, there are. also isn't a question about like whether or not that behavior continues, sort of unchecked if it's allowed. I mean, that's just what we know from other cases. And it's not, you know,

having that intervention is not a deterrent, right? And there is, for other forms of abuse, there are people that are sort of able to be rehabilitated and sort of be safe parents after that, but not for this. Yeah. I mean, it's, I just say all that to say, like, yes, we are speculating on sort of what may be happening, what might have happened, but we are not speculating about what Lisa's capable of. That is information that we have. Right. Yeah.

And, yeah, Michelle, I know, you know, something you and I have talked about a lot is, like, making the choice to sort of dive all the way in, right? Like, which, like, you and I have both done in our various ways, obviously made with the show and my book and all that stuff. and you've been doing trainings and you've been involved with Munchaus and Support, and that's been amazing. And you've been such an amazing asset to that. But that's like definitely not a choice everyone would make to sort of go, all right, I'm going to go learn everything I can about this. Because like as your understanding deepens, even though it's helpful in some ways, it's also painful

in some ways. Because then it's like you have to face it. You really have to face it head on. And that's a difficult thing. And I don't blame anybody for not, you know, like a number of people that have talked to me about their experiences, kind of like that was the last they wanted to talk about it. And they wanted to just move on with their lives and not think any harder about what, you know, what led their loved one to do those things or what have you. And I, again, I understand that choice. And then there are a lot of people who do sort of want to be involved. And, you know, something that you said to me after the show came out and after, you know, this deluge of like other stories about your mom came out and other people were getting in touch, you know, a lot of people

with you in particular, and Sabrina and I'll be interested to know if you had some of these experience I expect you did, but where it was like other stuff that you didn't know that your mom had done and financial fraud and other sort of narratives that she had been spinning throughout this time period. And like you made this comment to me that really resonated with me that you were sort of realizing and knew that you had. had that you didn't know your mom at all yeah i mean it's it's weird because i i was able to like think back to conversations i was having with my mom like where where her and i relationship was at the time where she was telling other people these things you know and i had no idea she was

telling these people these things and um like the financial fraud was i think one that just like kind of it really like solidified this perspective of me because you know there's all these things going wrong in her life and And she is calling me and she is texting me and she's so sad and she's so upset. And she's like, oh my gosh, I just don't know what I'm going to do. And it was, you know, this whole thing. I won't get into it because it's a long story. But, you know, and she's texting me all of this, like, I just don't know what we're going to do. And I'm just really sad. And like, it's just so financially draining and da-da-da-da. And what she's doing, right, is guilting me because she wanted

my help at the time. And I did not give it to her. And I kept that boundary, which I'm really proud of myself for looking back on it, especially, but then to find out at the same time, she is just like being, and I felt really bad, like even keeping that boundary, saying, mom, I can't help you in this. I felt really bad in the moment even doing it. And so to look back and see the proof of it, like the text messages and the proof that, you know, the timestamps and everything's there and knowing she was telling people, like she was defrauding people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars during the same time where she has come. coming to me and asking me for my help because of X, Y, Z.

Yeah, and someone, someone sent me, which I think I shared with you, but someone sent me a, like, voice memo that they had from her making that same ask. And it was just, yeah, it was, like, quite surreal to listen to. And you just sort of realize you're like, oh, there was all of these other, there was the conversations that you were in and the conversations that we knew about and what she said on her social media. And then there was just, like, tentacles and tentacles and tentacles. And it is.

It's never ending. Like, there was some. weird, crazy conversations she was having online with people that, who knows if they ever, you know, who knows if what she's claiming happened ever happened. And that doesn't really matter. But it is, it is bizarre. And it's to know that I never knew her. And there's a grief in that to know that I never knew who she was, you know. And it's also really, it really messes with your head because then it's like, it's the holidays and like, you know, we're going to celebrate Christmas. We're going to look at Christmas lights. And we're going to decorate cookies.

cookies with my kids and those are things that we did with her, you know? And so it's just, it's weird because I look at it and especially this time of year, like, I have really mourned a relationship with her. And there has been more than one time recently within the past few weeks where I've really wanted to pick up my phone and text her and check in on her and just, you know, talk to her and then having to realize that like that version of her was never real. Even the parts, even the bad parts I did know. Like I knew, you know, some kind of bad stuff she had done to my sister, not all the details. But I kind of knew that she wasn't a good mom for a really long time.

That was just the surface of it, you know? So it's a weird, complicated, complex grief to know that you never knew this person. And it really, I don't know, breaks down a bit of your psyche to realize that the person you were raised by in the same room with and have a lot of good memories with, you know, we went on a cruise with them one summer with my kids. I finally, right before we moved up here, I finally went through and deleted all the pictures off my framio, the little digital photo frame. I finally went through and deleted off all the pictures of her because it was just like, I didn't really know her. Like, I knew a version of her that she wanted me to see sometimes, but yeah, no, I, that really

resonates with me and I, you know, Sabrina, I wonder for you, like, because your relationship with Lisa goes back to when she was a child and, like, my experience of, you know, being, and I'm closer in age a bit than I think to Megan than you are to Lisa, but, you know, this experience of like how I grieved her sort of evolved kind of along the trajectory you're talking about Michelle, where I had this initial grief of like, she's not the person I once knew. She's changed. And I sort of thought of this like a death, right? Like there's this person that I grew up with and I loved and it was this and I had these good memories of. And then that person changed so much that she's just no longer there. And then the more I learned and especially

I think hearing other people's stories and sort of this detail coming out and that detail coming out I'm hearing this sort of just looking at these, like, all these facets of the things that she'd done and how far back it went and how much deeper it was than what I initially knew about. And I think I had that same experience, Michelle, that you're describing of like, oh, the person, I don't think the person that I remember was ever there in that way. And Sabrina, given that this is someone that you knew from childhood, I just wonder, like, how is your sort of experience? And we were talking about sort of these different levels of loss, right? Where it's like, okay, you've been kind of a strange, but now you're really a strange and sort of like, you know, as you've learned, like, you know, you have this period of your life when you were kids and then you had this period of life where you knew what she'd done to Angelin, but you were maintaining a relationship with her to be in, you know, the kids' lives and like, you know, maybe still trying to hold on to some idea that she

had gotten better and like, what's that trajectory kind of looked like for you? Well, it's been hard. I guess it's kind of hard to explain, but. I'll try. Lisa, just looking back and thinking about it and thinking about, I mean, they were some good times. Do not get me wrong. There were, they were sisterly times where we got along really good and, you know, it seemed

like things were great. And then Michelle asked me, did we have any pictures of her, you know, and I went back and we live in, now we live in what was my grandparents. home. So we live in a family home and going through stuff, there's boxes and boxes of pictures. And I just went and randomly grabbed a stack of pictures. And I got to looking at photos and, you know, she always had a hateful face. She was never smiling. She was very rare in pictures that she smiled at all. She just always looked like she was miserable. And I say that because looking back, you know, I've got tons of messages of things that she did in high school,

that people remember her doing and things like that. And I remember those things when people, when messaged me, there were some of them, I'm like, hey, I do remember that. I do remember when she went through her little passing out spells at school and she lost a lot of weight and got really thin, really quick, and was making herself vomit and all these things that, I don't think, I don't think the Lisa that I wanted to know ever really exists. I think that I had an image in my head of how she, that how I wanted her to be, but I truly

don't think that person ever existed. Lisa was always mean, she was always hateful to us growing up, you know, my little sister one time she chased her around the house with a, with a butcher knife that It was probably 10 inches long and just different things like that. So I think I in my brain made myself think that these images I've had of her existed that never really did exist if that even made sense because just looking back, she caused so much chaos and so much terminal in our family before Angeline was born. And a lot of it started when she started dating Carrie.

I mean, that whole relationship started out in turmoil with a bunch of lies. And I think it's been hard for me because I've had to grieve the person that I invented. I've had to grieve the person that in my mind I wanted to be there. But the reality has really sunk in that that was never really the person that was there to begin with. Yeah, I think it's the same for me. And I guess the one thought that sort of gives me some peace about it. which if this is helpful to y'all, you know, take it or leave it. But, you know, I always think, like, well, the good memories that I do have are because I loved her. And I remember loving her

and being happy in her company. And those good memories were real because they're my memories. And so I always kind of try and say, well, like, yeah, it doesn't, like, I don't. Like, I don't. Like, don't have to go back and erase all of those and say, oh, those weren't real or put those under, I mean, they are in some sense under a shadow, right? But it's like, I almost feel like actually that this, they were under more of a shadow before I explored all of this and before I faced it. And now that it's sort of like, I have a fuller understanding, I can just look back on those and be like, yeah, this turned out to be a really complicated person. But like my experience of that in my childhood, I did have a happy childhood. That doesn't.

doesn't actually change that because I was there. I was having an honest, you know, authentic love for that person. And that's, that's what I sort of, like, I get to keep that, I guess. That's how I think of it. Yeah. I mean, that makes perfect sense to me. It really does. It really does. Yeah. Michelle, what's going through your mind over there? I really wish we were in person. I know. I know. I wish that Bryant was going to walk in the door with 15 pizzas from village pizza, having cleaned out village pizza. Right, right. Don't tempt him.

I ordered the pizza around my house, just by the way. You know, it's just, like I said, it's just I'm really emotional this time of year. And this is the first year, just having no contact and just that reality setting in, you know, that like I do wonder. And Andrea, as you were kind of saying that, I can't. kind of occurred to me, like, those memories are really real for me. And the heaviness with that is, I get to keep that, but, like, were any of those real for her? You know, was there ever a moment where, like, is she capable of feeling real love? You know what I mean? The way, the way you and I are. And so I think that's it. I think that's kind of what hit me as you were kind of talking

about that is, how sad of a life that is, of, like, being devoid of, like, what real love is. And it's kind of crazy because it just occurred to me. Like she used to talk that way about her mother, like about my nana. You know, she talked, she always said that she never felt unconditional loved by her mother. Like she was never able to feel that. She didn't know what unconditional love was from her mom. And it's so it's just kind of, it's kind of wild and it's still kind of like when I think about it really deeply in moments like this. It is kind of crazy to me because it's like she was able to express.

set like she was able to explain that she never felt unconditional love from her mother but also her love was conditional like her love was not unconditional love and so it's just it's interesting to me and it's also really sad that she was able to to say that um and realize that but then not she was not able to like give that to her own children if that makes sense it does and i agree with you that I think that that's where I land, you know, that's kind of like where it can be really hard to have compassion for people who've done the things that Lisa has done. And I think where I sort of like tend to relocate it in a moment is that like to be able to love and to feel connected with other people is the single thing that makes life on earth worth living. and to not be able to feel that is, it is like the saddest thing I think I can imagine. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's hard. That's, it's hard to explain that to people. And to hit on my show's point, what Lisa said about our mother, I can believe what she said about her. because me and Wastley have had the conversations many times that what I thought was normal in childhood growing up you realize it's just so not normal because our mom was always well nobody loves me nobody cares about me if you cared about me you would do this or you would do that and that's the kind of thing and I think that's probably what Lisa was probably talking about when she didn't feel that unconditional love because as I get older

and process things and deal with all these things that have happened, I've learned in the holidays hard. The holidays are hard. The holidays hit really hard. Of course, my mom's been gone for nine years now, I guess, and my dad died on Christmas Day, actually, what, two years, three years ago this year.

And just looking back, you do realize that love wasn't unconditional when it came to my mom. So with my kids and with Collie Bell especially, I just try so hard, you know, to make them feel to show them. We do go overboard, but I try to show them, you know, I try to always show up, you know, and be there for the important things. that are important to them because just because it's not important to me doesn't mean it's not important to them. So, but yeah, I can, I can resonate with, with, um, why Lisa would say that about mama. Well, I think you guys are both, um, you know, we were sort of talking earlier about, I'm just kind of like to wrap all this up, but we're talking earlier about how, you know,

sometimes our expectations about how people are going to show up after being through a big trauma are kind of unrealistic and maybe unfair. But I do think it's a really admirable thing when people who did not have the parents that they deserved and whatever that, to whatever degree, really show up for their kids and just try their level best to be really good parents and to be loving parents. And I definitely see that with both of you. And that's something I really admire about both of you. And yeah, I mean, I just want to kind of bring us to a close here again. I I so wish we were sitting on the porch and, you know, eating pizza and being able to chill out in person. And I don't want to tell you both that, like, this was a really, obviously this is such a hard story to tell.

And I know the whole team feels really honored that you trusted us to tell it. And our audience resonated so much with our audience. And it's meant so much to our audience to hear from both of you. And I just have, I have to say I have such good memories of being with you. both in Georgia. I just those were like, looking back on, I was like going through all my pictures from this year. And I was just like looking at those pictures. And, you know, especially Michelle, you and I got to spend so much time together this past year. And I know it was really hard. It was a really special experience for me. And I just, I just have, I just, I'm sending both

of you so much love. And yeah, I mean, is there, is there anything just else you want to say? We would love to have you back on and sort of hopefully there will be kind of developments with the situation in the positive eventually. But, yeah, is there anything you guys want to say just as we wrap up here? Well, I could still talk for hours. I've gotten to a point where I don't talk about it as much, you know, because I've done so much processing this past year, but I still find myself, like, wanting to talk to survivors and just talk about this abuse in general.

So I'm always, you know, I'm a yapper in case you guys didn't know that already. we love a yapper obviously me too professional yapper yeah but yeah i mean i just you know grateful does not even begin to cover it um i guess my final thoughts are i have started looking back on like this whole year um when i go back and listen um to those first recordings that we did it is like i finally got all of my emotions back this year as you can't tell because i think i've our three times we've been recording, but like if you go back and listen to those first recordings we did, I was there, but like it's almost like the emotions were still very removed from it because I had spent so much time like dissociating from it and just putting it in the back of my mind

and just because I wasn't able to just get it all out and process it and just purge it. And so that's really been just a really wonderful experience, hard, but just great to kind of have that realization that I just, it was. It was like a floodgate, right? This whole year has been, um, A big floodgate of emotions, but it's good because it makes me feel like more whole as a person, right, that I finally kind of got back all those different parts of myself. That's beautiful. And Sabrina, what about you? What? Any final thoughts for today?

Never final final. No, because I would love to talk to you any time. Listen, I think the listeners just want you and Brent, like, and Michelle have your own podcast. I think we would just be like, Sabrina and. Talk about it. Talk about life in the South. We would love it. We have talked about the podcast,

but more than anything, I'm so grateful for all the work you did and for Mara and everybody who had a hand in it to bring the story out. It's being emotional, say the least, but there are so many people who have reached out and, you know, not necessarily in this situation,

but are going through hard situations that just need to talk to somebody. And so I just want to say, nobody has ever unlocked. You know, if you need help and you don't have anybody to talk to, reach out to me, contact me. Don't ever think you're alone

because this has been so therapeutic for me to be able to do this. And if it, you know, we've said the whole time, if it just helps one person, if it just helps one person, that's one person. And if that person can help with somebody else. So I just want everybody to know that they are loved by somebody,

and there is somebody that cares. And to reach out, because there is somebody that anybody can talk to. And like I say, if reach out to me, I may not know you, but I'll try. I'll give up my dirtiness, and that's the one thing I've learned. I've had people to reach out to me that I'll probably never meet in my life. that have shown so much compassion for the situation and I just want to extend that

to others and let them know that you are never in this by yourself. She's everybody's Aunt Sabrina, truly. Everybody. I love everybody. Aunt Sabrina loves you. Oh, well, girls, another lovely time with you. Nobody should believe me is produced

and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.