Nobody Should Believe Me - Crime Close to Home: A Conversation with Madison McGhee

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Andrea Dunlop interviews Madison McGhee, host of the Ice Cold Case podcast, about her personal journey investigating her father's unsolved murder in 2002. They discuss the emotional complexity of the investigation, the challenges of maintaining objectivity, and the broader implications of failings in the justice system. Madison shares insights into how her podcast developed, her experiences with family backlash, and her determination to find answers. * * * Listen to Ice Cold Case. Follow Madison on Instagram. Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. with a fellow true crime podcaster I love, Madison McGee from Ice Cold Case. So as ever, if you want more from me and if you want to get the first several episodes of season four in your feed next week, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. And if that's not an option, rating and reviewing the show always really helps as does spreading the word on social media

or wherever you are chatting with folks. In 2002, when Madison McGee was six years old, her father JC was murdered in his home. The crime was never solved, and in 2020, Madison, who at that time was working as a television producer in LA, decided to pick up the case and try to get to the bottom of what happened to her father all those years ago. She then launched her show, Ice Cold Case, in the summer of 2023. As you can imagine, the stakes of this investigation could not be higher. And in the year that it's been on the air, the story has taken some extremely dramatic turns. I started listening to this show last year after I met Madison at CrimeCon, and I have been hooked ever since. I think you are going to love this one.

So I'm going to give you a little taste of the show with the trailer, and then we will head right into the interview. Enjoy. We didn't right into the interview. Enjoy. We didn't tell her the truth. This man died for no reason at all. They let it go. They let him die. But he knew somebody was going to get him. So it's scary. Sure.

There's no code of ethics out there. I want to find the man who murdered your dad. I've never really felt right about that. This is pretty raw shit that I really don't want to even talk about. I really don't know how I'm going to tell you. I just need to tell you the truth. Don't trust anybody, not even family. Welcome to West Virginia. They are some sick ass people. We're gonna find out. I know is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring.

And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if

you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.

Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Customer challenges faster with agents, winning with purpose, and showing the world what AI was meant to be. Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. Playoff football is here with BetMGM.

And as an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, BetMGM is the best place to fuel your football fandom on every game day. With a variety of exciting features, BetMGM offers you plenty of seamless ways to jump straight onto the gridiron and to embrace peak sports action. Visit BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older. Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hello, Madison. Hi. Thank you so much for being here with me to talk about your incredible story and your podcast, Ice Cold Case.

Thank you for having me. Oh, it's such a pleasure. I've really wanted to do this since I met you and especially after I started listening to your show because you and I met last fall at CrimeCon. We were at a dinner together and we sat next to each other. And I remember I sat down and said hello and just said, hi, you know, what's your name? Like, what's your podcast about? And you said, oh, I'm investigating my father's murder. And I was like, whoa. And then I thought, oh, I bet this is a person that I have a lot in common with because we are in that segment of true crime that is related to an incident that happened in our family, which I think is a very specific part of the true crime ecosystem. It is. It's really interesting that it is so niche because it shouldn't be.

But I mean, it is. We're like a part of this incredibly small sect of people that are doing what we're doing. So Madison, what is your podcast about? Ice Cold Case is about my investigation into my dad's unsolved murder in 2002. So he was killed via gun violence. He was shot. And that's pretty much all that there is to know. There was no real leads as far as who did it. There's all these theories, all these motives. There's just so into it, and then I started a podcast about it. And that's sort of where we're at now. You were very young when your father was killed. What do you remember about him? How do you remember your dad? This is a really interesting question because my dad was killed when I was six. And so as far as

even memory capability, I have about two years of times you remember. And now I've talked to so many people about my dad. I don't know what I remember or what people have told me that I've envisioned in my head or had dreams about, but I remember my dad being super charismatic, really funny. He was really well-liked. And I think that is something that stands out to me because I remember him having a lot of friends. I remember meeting a lot of people when I was with my dad, him introducing me to buddies who would come over or friends that he knew. He was really helpful. And I think that made him really popular. I remember him being kind of strict with my sister. She was a bit of a wild child. And so I remember them sort of getting

into fights when I was a kid because she was 16. So he didn't want her to go to parties and seemed really strict. And I wonder, being the younger kid, if when I got to that age, if I would have had any leniency, because I see that dynamic with siblings, I imagine a world in which my sister would have resented me for getting away with more when I was a teenager. Of course, I won't ever know what that was like. But those are the things that I really remember about him. I mean, obviously, he had a swag about him because he was a drug dealer who drove a Cadillac and was kind of like the cool kid in that community. But I didn't know how to place that at six. But I do remember him being kind of like this cool guyyear-old and a five-year-old. And one of the things that you realize when you become a parent is this idea that now you play this huge role in someone's life and that your presence or absence is going to completely define their childhood.

And it's this sort of scary thing to have on your shoulders. And to lose a parent that young, I mean, even you're talking about thinking about how would he have been with me when I was a teenager. And I would just imagine that in so many deep ways, his absence has just really echoed throughout your entire family and like your entire life. 100%. In a very similar way to the butterfly effect being a lot of small things that really dictate where you end up in life, there are, I'd say, like five to 10 moments in one's life that are really stark that dictate a shift. And definitely losing my dad is one of those things that I look back on when I'm like, okay, I am here in my life. And how did I get here?

That is definitely one of those that defined my personality, defined my sense of humor, defined what I ended up doing with my life. Losing my dad was definitely a big thing that really shifted, I think, a lot. And yeah, like a life-defining moment in ways that I don't even know I've fully comprehended. I'm not a parent, but if I am crazy enough to choose to do that, I'm sure that that will manifest itself in new ways then. But yeah, there's so many things that I've yet to experience, but I have noticed in interpersonal relationships and other ways where I am definitely different because of this lack of a presence of half of my DNA. I think if you lose someone in your immediate family, you know, obviously a parent, that's kind of the most impactful. I just don't think there's

anything that can impact a child like losing a parent. You know, I've thought about this a lot with myself. I was in my late 20s, so about the age you are now, actually, when all of this happened with my sister and we became estranged. And for me, because I was a full-on adult when it happened, it really bifurcated my life into this before and after. And I almost can't relate back with the person that I think of who I was before this happened. And part of that's because of the nature of the loss, right? For both of us, there's a lot of really complicated things that are entwined with that. It's, you know, obviously it's always tragic when you lose a family member, but there are sort of more complicated ways and less complicated ways that

that can happen. And obviously for both of us, for very different reasons, the ways we lost them are very complicated and continue to remain unresolved. And it's just a very specific experience. I'm not sure that people who haven't had that happen can totally understand what it's like to lose someone in your immediate family that you sort of have your identity so tied up with. It's funny, I don't even know if I realized it until I was older because I don't really have a before and after because I was so young. And so realizing as I was doing this podcast and learning about my dad and realizing my mom is not that funny and I have really bad depression and anxiety and my mom does not really understand those feelings and learning

about my dad and hearing about how funny he was and that he was depressed and anxious it was like oh that's where that relatability would have come from as growing up being a kid and going home and being like why do I feel this way my dad would have known what I was talking about and would I have felt more understood would I have struggled as much with talking about? And would I have felt more understood? Would I have struggled as much with this feeling othered because I couldn't place those emotions and feelings and thoughts into anything? Because my mom would be like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know if we've ever seen the documentary Three Identical Strangers. It's incredible. But when they meet each other and they're like, oh my God, we have the same taste

in women and we smoke the same cigarettes. We move the same and they talk the same and they hadn't seen each other their entire lives, but they were related. So they have these biological similarities and interests and it all made sense to them when they met. And I felt that with my dad as I learned about him to go, oh, that's where that came from. It almost validated a lot of that for me, which I didn't get to understand as a kid. So yeah, it's almost like a reverse loss in a way. I didn't know that piece was missing until I found it, I guess. Has that been healing for you to get to talk to so many people about your dad? Or has it maybe opened some new wounds? Any time someone asks me about this podcast, it is equally the best and worst thing I've ever done in my entire life. I think that there is this level of healing that has been wonderful. But

if you don't know you're hurt, do you really need to heal it? So I feel like there were a lot of things I didn't know about. I think in some ways, ignorance is bliss. And I didn't know a lot. I would argue in the same way that I feel like I was owed to know what happened to my dad. Would my life be better if I didn't? Probably. And so I wonder all the time if no one had ever told me my dad was murdered and I just thought that my dad had a heart attack and I was a 28-year-old living in LA, you know, trying to win an Oscar for best motion picture. Would this all bother me so much? I wouldn't have any idea that it happened.

So it wouldn't. Yeah. I mean, that is, I think, one of the biggest questions that you have to ask yourself before going on an odyssey where you are going to be picking through the deep, dark secrets of your own family is really interrogating to the best of your ability, which there are so many unexpected things that happen along the way. I think in some ways it's impossible to know whether you're prepared or not. You have to kind of ask yourself, do I want to know these things?

Will I be better off knowing these things? Will it help anyone to sort of know the truth? Especially like knowing all the details. Once you know them, you can't unknow them. And so it's a pretty treacherous thing to head into. And to your point, you were hanging out in LA, living your life. You've had an already successful career in TV and film production. And it sounds like this project came about in part because of the pandemic. I think we all had our little

pandemic projects when everything was shut down. So tell me about that decision to start looking into this, because obviously this happened a long time ago. Was it that process of sort of being in the space of sitting at home, having maybe too much introspection as we all were in 2020? What brought this about? I think it was sort of the combination of the curiosity because at this point I knew that my dad was murdered and that alone is just such a weird thing to find out that your dad who's dead was murdered. Just the heart attack. And it's like, oh, wait, no, no, no, no, no, murdered, murdered. And so that's always so strange. But having the time during the pandemic, and I had a lot of friends who were creating just the coolest stuff during the early days of the pandemic. And I was like, what am I supposed to do with this? I'm so curious. And I have all this time. And I think that's always the biggest thing is like, I can't look into my dad's murder. That's going to take me forever. And I've got a job or I'm working. And I think when you're working in a

creative field, it's hard to do creative side projects. And so at that point, it was like, well, now you don't really have an excuse. And we have no idea how long the world is going to be shut down. So you may as well open a case file and take a look. I didn't know that it was going to be a podcast in the beginning. It was truly like, let me get these case files and see what's there. It could have been, I get these case files. Okay, great. I've scratched that itch. I don't need to figure out anything else. I've read through this. It's unknown. The end. That is not what happened, but I didn't need to figure out anything else. I've read through this. It's unknown. The end.

That is not what happened. But I didn't know what was going to happen. And so I got the stuff after making that initial call. And then there was just too much there for my brain to just sit on and say, oh, well, nobody knows. And that's when I entered this very weird journey, life path, whatever this will end up being and was just like, I've got to figure this out. I've just got to know what happened.

This is so weird. And even if it wasn't my dad, I think I'd still be like, what the heck is going on? This is such a strange case. And so the added element that it is my dad makes it more enticing for me to look through it when I'm really not feeling like it. And that's sort of how this all started.

I've listened to all the episodes of the show that are available. I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment. It's such a good show. It's so well done. And I kind of see you, and I recognize this had been my own experience as well, kind of heading into

the project like, okay, yes, I'm connected to this case and I'm sort of staying up here and I'm going to look at the facts, putting yourself kind of in the journalist's seat, right? And then maybe with some level of, and I say delusion comfortably because I think it was on my part as well, like I'm going to be able to stay this far away from it and sort of be able to stay detached. And of course, that's not what happens, right? Sure enough, that is also what makes it so compelling is that you're talking to someone who's in it. It makes the stakes feel so much higher, right? This is not just a random cold case that intrigued you. It's something that's really deeply personal. I love those moments when you're sort of throughout the show reflecting on how it's affected you or impacted your family and reflecting on what it's just like to be going on this journey where everything just has such high emotional stakes for you and where things feel kind of overwhelming or confusing. So, I mean, did that surprise you when you got into it?

What has that process been like of trying to be a journalist on your own story, basically? Yeah, it's been just wild because my dad died when I was six. So, I also felt like I would be able to sort of compartmentalize a lot because for most of my life, my dad wasn't alive. So, I didn't understand how emotional this would become in the beginning because I really did delusionally believe in my ability to compartmentalize all of this and really just be like, eh, this is just a random person, right? And when I'm reading through these files, if I can disassociate from the fact that this is my dad, then I'll be able to look at this from a pretty solid, objective perspective. And I don't really know a lot of these people. I don't know my cousins very well. I don't know my dad's siblings at all, really. So when I'm talking about these people, I actually can look at this from a journalist perspective because if any random

journalist hopped in, they wouldn't know these people either. So we're really no different. That is not true. My family's crazy. But would they be tagging and posting threats about a journalist? Probably not. They're just doing that about me because I'm family, even though they don't know me. So I don't know what I was expecting, but I definitely was not expecting it to be so emotionally and mentally challenging and complicated because, yeah, the wires get really crossed when you're trying to see this from this third-party perspective. but I also need them to send me more case files. How do you do that? And my opinion of them not investigating very well, even if I say that, a journalist could say that and everyone would be like, oh yes, of course, they did not do a very good job. If I say that, it's like, yeah, yeah, but that's your dad and they didn't solve it. So of course you're going to say that. But in the same ways that it validates my perspective being related to my dad,

it also invalidates a lot of things I say because you have to sort of prove that I'm saying that from an objective perspective, not from the perspective of being a family member. So it's very complicated and writing these episodes is just a nightmare. There's like hundreds of versions of every episode. I remember the one specifically about my family and my upbringing with my mom and my relationship with my mom was incredibly difficult to write. I probably wrote that in 18 different varieties from being really harsh on my mom to being really easy on my mom. And we landed somewhere in the middle. And I remember calling her to see, do you want to read this before we record it? Because once we record it, I can't go back and

do it again. I don't want to read it. Okay, fine. Put it out. She didn't love it, of course. Her coworkers are listening and it was very weird. But that was my perspective of what happened and how our relationship has transpired. But I'm also making a podcast from a journalist perspective. How do you separate the two? It's impossible. I don't know how to compartmentalize anymore. And I really believed in my ability to do so, especially because I come from a TV and film background. I do this all the time for other people. But again, that's not my story. So it's easier to say,

okay, let's focus on this. This is really juicy. How do you say that about your own life? It's very weird. Everything you just said really resonates with me and mirrors a lot of my own experience, right? Because I went into the show saying, okay, I will disclose that I have a family situation,

but I'm not going to talk about it to like talking a little bit about it getting a lot of pushback from my sister and then once I had the case files in my hands and my public records requests had come through once I had some of that documentation in my hand then realizing oh now that I know these details I absolutely cannot sit on these and then ended up recording an episode with her full name and all of the details that I knew. And that was a very scary thing to do. But also, I felt like I've just been sort of trying to follow my instincts every step of the way. And it just became clear once I was in it that the best way I can serve this project

and like do what I'm trying to do here with this is to sort of open that door to sharing my personal experience and being vulnerable. Because I started off interviewing other people about their cases, I was also watching people be extremely brave with what they shared with me. And I think that that helped me meet them there, if you will. It's just a very specific experience. And I think some people will criticize you for sort of not being objective. And I think you have always disclosed that this is your father's murder that you're looking into. So it's like the expectation that you're going to be detached from the story should never be there by the listener. That also was why I ended up feeling like I should say it

more because I was like, yes, of course I'm not objective about this. It doesn't mean that I can't recognize that bias and sort of deal with it accordingly, right? Which is what I feel like I see you in that process as you're making the show of sort of like checking for that, right? As you're going through it. And I think it doesn't make you the wrong person to report on it. I think it makes you the right person to report on it in a lot of ways. If you're not killing these people, then who is? That's what I want to know. Starring Kaley Cuoco and Chris Messina. The only investigating I'm doing these days is who shit their pants. Killer messaged you yesterday? This is so dangerous. I got to get out of this. Based on a true story. New season premieres tonight at 9 Eastern and Pacific.

Only on W. Stream on Stack TV. I want to tell you about a show I love, Truer Crime from Cilicia Stanton. My favorite true crime shows are the ones where I feel like the creator has a real stake in what they're talking about. And this is definitely the case with Cilicia, who got interested in covering crime because, like many of us in this genre,

she experienced it. In each episode of the show, Cilicia brings a personal, deeply insightful lens to the crime that she covers. Whether it's a famous case like the Manson murders or Jonestown, or a lesser known case that needs to be heard, like the story of a modern lynching. She covers these stories with a fresh and thoughtful lens, helping listeners understand not just the case itself, but why it matters to Our Understanding of the World. Her long-awaited second season is airing now, and the first season is ready to binge. So go check out True or Crime with Cilicia Stanton wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been listening to this show for a while,

you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new

network true story media where we are all about uplifting true crime creators doing the work and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows and i could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner you probably think this story's about you. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024, zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience.

If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes. I also think it's really interesting, something that I've been grappling with just in my thought process and things that keep me up at night is this idea that in a court of law, you really want to get it right when you tell the story because you really only get one chance to tell your side. And a prosecutor, defense attorney has so long to sort of go through and figure out what their storyline is and what they think happened that day.

I am doing all of that process in real time. And so this whole question I've been asking myself is, is it wrong to be wrong? If I have a theory and I explore that theory and I talk about that theory and I say, I think this is a route that it could have been. Maybe I'm going to look at this person for a while and see if it was them. And then deciding that, oh, maybe it's not, and I'm going to look at something else. Is that wrong? Will I get criticized for saying it was this person and then going back and saying, well, it wasn't? But really, lawyers are doing that behind closed doors to get to their theory. So I'm just doing that with an open door and you all can follow that process. I just think it's really interesting because I'm not a court

of law, so I should have every right to sort of be really transparent in my investigative process. We just don't get that a lot. So it's not really normalized to do that. And so I think it's jarring to hear someone's theory sort of from beginning, middle, and end of maybe deciding that that's not what really happened. And I think part of proving one theory is disproving other theories. And beyond a reasonable doubt means you have to be able to say, well, it couldn't have been any of these other things. So it's a necessary part of investigating, but no one really talks about that piece of it. And so I think what I'm doing is super rare and isn't done as often because when you normally hear podcasts about cases, they're closed. So you sort of go through the theory that ends up being true, or you go maybe down one

other theory to have the entertainment value of, is that it? No. Okay, it's this other thing. But you don't really get in real time, I'm investigating this because this makes sense. And then, oh, and that wasn't it. Okay, now what do I do? I don't want people to think when I'm making this show, I'm just sort of throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

It's all very well thought out and thought through before I do it. You're right that what you're describing is an investigation in real time. It's more of a risk to look at something that is either a cold case or a case that's developing in real time or a case where there was never a conviction. I mean, one of the things I deal with all the time is that in the vast, vast majority of Munchausen by proxy cases, there are no charges filed. There is no conviction. Our system isn't functional in catching it at all. And right now we're in a moment where a lot of perpetrators who've been investigated and not been charged are going to the media and saying they were falsely accused. And that's the big story in the media right now. So to look into those cases, you know, the first couple of cases we started with were cases where there were convictions. And it was like, case closed.

Once there's a conviction in one of these cases, everyone is like, that person's a monster and that person's a this, that, and the other thing, and kind of takes the complete opposite thing, right? But if there isn't a conviction, they say, oh, that poor mother, she was falsely accused, what have you. But those are the cases that I want to talk about, right? Because that's representative of most of the cases. And to this point, you're talking about your dad, and that's very personal, but it's happening in the larger context of like,

do the police properly investigate the deaths of Black men under these kind of circumstances especially, right? Or do they just blow it off? And what are the sort of other things that are playing into that? These are really important things to explore. And I think that exploring them in a personal way with a person who has some stakes, it's like, well, who better than someone who has some skin in the game? Because yes, you're potentially putting things out there that are going to affect a lot of other people, but they're also going to affect you and you're going to deal

with that criticism. Having someone who's sort of on the field, as it were, is a more ethical way to do it. And I also think if something happened to me and someone was making a true crime podcast about it, would I want that person to be a stranger or would I want that to be someone who'd loved me, who cared about what happened to me and genuinely affected by that outcome too? I think most of us would absolutely answer the latter, right? Because we're more confident that that person is going to try their best to get it right. Yeah, totally. You know, there's so much true crime content out there and this is so funny. And as someone who has a personal story, I even feel weird talking about this, but ethical true crime comes up a lot in these conversations that I have with people. If it were really about being ethical, true crime wouldn't exist at all, right?

It wouldn't be entertainment. So for us as relatives of victims, it's like, okay, we know this exists. We know this is happening. We know true crime is out there and people are making shows and exploiting stories and doing all of this stuff. So if we insert ourselves, we're getting as close to ethical as possible because we're connected to these stories. And so it's this really weird place to be in of like, is that wrong? I have all these questions about it, but other people are doing it, but does that make it right? I don't know. It's just all so strange. It's just so interesting to me as far as it is great that I'm telling my own story from my

perspective and it's empowering other people and that's amazing and I love that. But at the end of the day, for every one person that it's inspiring and encouraging, there's a hundred that are just listening for entertainment. And am I contributing to the problem? Am I solving the problem? I don't know. But here I am, and I'll keep doing it. But it is something that, again, I just think about all the time. And I don't know. Does that make any sense? It makes all of the sense. And I think it also brings to mind that saying like, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but it's like, here we are, you know,

this is the world we live in. And as you did, like I started my show because I just wanted to do it. And then we've had some really good success with the show and now it is a monetized thing and I have to have it that way because that's how I will keep making it and that's how I will keep making it. And that's how I can keep making it independently, which I think is really important.

Right. It's a full-time job. Oh, it's so much work. Yeah. Like it takes so much time. And, you know, if other people are going to buy homes in the Hollywood Hills because of their true crime podcast, I'd love to pay my rent with mine. Dear God. Right. And that's how it will get made

in the system that we have, right? It's not like we have some like public arts fund that's going to come in and, you know, do all that for us. You're right. It's as close to true crime as it can get. And I also think both you and I have backgrounds in entertainment and the arts. We both come from a deep storytelling background.

I approach the show with a strong sense of we have to tell a story that people are going to want to hear. I know the information that I want to get to those people and I want that information to be out there and I think it can help a lot of people, but we also just have to keep people tuned in.

You are creating an entertainment product and yes, there are times when that feels deeply, deeply weird because of the seriousness of the nature of what we're talking about. But at least being connected to it if we're even going to compete with everything else and fight through the noise. And I say this in one of my episodes, if it weren't for me making a show that sounds the same as a Wondery podcast or a Tenderfoot podcast or any other major network that's creating at a really high level, if my show didn't sound like theirs, you wouldn't listen and you wouldn't know about my dad's case. And that's just the truth of it. If we don't do that, then our stories don't get heard. And I feel like a little aunt waving

my arms in the corner, screaming, going, please pay attention to this. This matters just as much as JonBenet Ramsey or anyone else. And I couldn't get anyone to listen. And then I made my podcast and now 10 people listen, but you know, somebody is paying attention. And so, yeah, it's this, I just struggle with, I want to look back and I want to be really proud of the work I did. And I just don't know if I ever will. Will I wonder if I just bought into all of the mess and played the game so hard that I became part of it, or did I really fight through it and make a change in it? I don't know, and I wonder what will happen there, but. It's a good sign that you're asking yourself those questions. I ask myself these questions also all the time. And without getting into any specifics, my experience with some other true crime podcasters

that are maybe not coming from the place of having a connection to it, I don't know that they worry about these things that much. And I think there are a lot of true crime podcasters that come in with a really hot take about a case that is not necessarily backed up by the facts, where they have not done the reams and reams and reams of research that you and I do, and they have not rewritten the episode multiple times to make sure they got it right and were sensitive to the parties involved, et cetera. I think there are a lot of people just boldly going forth with really harmful stuff. It's the process of the asking the questions that is maybe the thing that keeps you on the

right track, you know? Yeah, totally. Such a good point. And I think that it is funny that you say that. They aren't asking themselves those questions. And I am incredibly hard on myself, as I'm sure you probably are as well, to make sure that it's right. And to know that other people aren't doing that, and I know that other people aren't doing that, is really interesting because,

yeah, of course we're the ones asking ourselves these questions, and we're the ones who are literally connected to the stories. It's just funny. Yeah, I mean, part of that for me, and I'm sure for you as well, comes from that we're coming into it with this previous lived experience of having the media either get the stories in our family completely wrong and or completely ignore them. And watching then the sort of larger topic, for me, Munchausen by proxy, for you, all of the sort of various deaths of Black men and how those get ignored and like missing white woman syndrome and kind of all those other things that play into what you're doing. We've seen how bad that feels when the media gets it wrong and like that has personally impacted us. And so we are, of course, going to be much more conscious about what we're putting into the media landscape. And one thing that you said in one of the later episodes of the first season that really hit me hard was you were talking about how conflicted you feel about this process of trying to investigate your

dad's case. And you said, I didn't want to do this and I shouldn't have to. And I was like, boy, if that's not the mantra of like those of us that are in this family member true crime space. I don't want to be here. If your podcast is the most successful thing you ever work on, which for me, my podcast is by far the most successful thing I've done arts wise. I feel very conflicted about that sometimes because if I could exchange that for not having this had happened to my family, in a second, I would, right? You're bound to feel conflicted about that, but you're like, listen, if the systems had done their job, if the police had properly investigated your father's murder

and found out who killed him and held them accountable, if you had that justice to be able to let your family have some peace about it, if in my case, the prosecutor had made a different call when they were referred to charges from the police and actually pursued that case and seen it through and justice was done, then I wouldn't be sitting here. I would not have ever felt compelled to get in front of a microphone and start talking about this. The reality is, and I think it's a very complicated reality, I met some other people in CrimeCon last year where we both were that I was really impressed with what they were doing in terms of victim advocacy and really doing some pretty important work with their true crime podcasts.

And I think that is possible. And it's also extremely depressing. We're all sitting here with the limited resources of independent podcasters or podcast networks trying to do the job of the police, the prosecutors, CPS, whatever it is. This is not a role we should have to be filling. But here we are. I think the thing that people don't necessarily understand about the position that maybe we both have found ourselves in is like, this is a last resort. Dragging all of my family's dirty laundry out into the public sphere is a last resort because there was no other way about it. Nothing else was going to get anybody's attention.

And that scrutiny and that public pressure and having those names out there, as much as it can lead to backlash for you, and it sounds like it has with family members and some other people that are connected to this case, that's one of the only things that can put pressure on a situation to where you can get answers or the officials involved will do something or they're at least have to like kind of answer for it, you know? Oh, yes, I do know. I think about this, honestly, on a daily basis. I think about how much time I've spent on this show and investigation. I think about how much money I've spent on this show and this investigation. And I wonder what I would be doing or buying if I didn't have to do that. And if you really break it down, it's honestly insane. I didn't grow up in Belmont

County, Ohio, so I don't really have this sort of complaint. But I do think about if I had, and my mom lived there, and my family still does live there, they're paying tax dollars to pay for a police department to protect and serve their community. And I've spent nearly $100,000 to do their job. That's crazy. And so that is something I think about all the time. And how if they had solved the case or even given it more time and attention, it may not still have been solved. That's okay. But if I had felt like they had done everything that they could do to solve it, trust and believe I would rather be doing anything else than making my dumb little podcast. I'm not kidding. My dreams in life are to do things completely outside of true crime. This was never the goal. I never was like, oh, thank God my dad

was murdered so I can hop into this industry that I really want to be in. I'd rather be a dentist than do this. I do not want to do this. And it's frustrating every day because now I'm in it. One of the things I've been saying is the only way out is through at this point. I've gotten myself into this and now the only way to go is all the way through the end. I don't really feel like I have another option and my heart is pulling me in this direction. But it is incredibly frustrating to be like, I have to do this because someone whose actual job is to do this didn't do it. I do feel like a lot of the times I'm screaming into the void and I wonder, is this all going to be worth it? I have friends who ask me this at dinner or just in casual conversation. They're like, what will be enough for you? Is it solving it? Is it taking this to court? If you look back on this and it's like, oh,

this was worth it, what is that? I don't know right now because right now it feels like I'm sort of spinning my wheels and I'm like, what is enough for me after doing all of this and spending all of this time and giving up friendships and ruining relationships and my family ties are completely severed because of this. It's like, what at the end of the day happens that makes me go, oh, it was all worth that. It was all worth doing all of this. I have no freaking clue. But I do wish that in my case, the Belmont County Sheriff's Department 22 years ago would have done enough to solve this case so that at the end of the day, at least when I was 16 years old, my mom could have been like, hey, your dad didn't have a heart attack, but he was

murdered. And there's a guy in the Ohio County Correctional Facility that's going to be there for the next 15 years because he killed your dad. And that is unfortunately not what was said. And unfortunately, planted a seed in my head that got me here. It's a tough question, right? We both are following a really strong instinct and internal pull to do these projects and also probably have necessarily measured expectations about the outcome as it pertains to our individual families. It sounds like you have been wrestling with that of, is it solving my dad's murder or is it some other outcome or is it feeling like I've chased everything down? And I think that's even a little bit where for the moment I've landed,

obviously these are like evolving situations, we're both still right in the middle of it. Whenever you have an unsolved case in your family of any kind where you feel like they didn't catch the person or the person who did it, in your opinion, was not held accountable specifically, there's this really, really deep feeling of helplessness. That's a really difficult thing to live with. For me, at least, being able to have a place to put that and be like For me, at least, being able to have a place to put that and be like, okay, maybe I'm never going to be able to help my niece and nephew, but maybe I can help some other kids or maybe I can just give people a place to talk about their story. People hear it and they feel less alone and they feel less isolated. Both of us as

storytellers, I know that like we see the value in that, right? I don't think that the cavalry is going to come charging in because I called them out on my podcast and be like, you're right, we were incorrect. Let's take another look at this and let's do the right thing this time. I mean, I think it's like you have to have your expectations measured and maybe the outcome is just knowing that you did everything that you could do so that it's not just like sitting there on your chest of like,

I should have looked into this. I should have done it. Once you start, it's pretty hard to turn that off. Oh, yeah. I'm just a naturally curious person. I think creating things is sort of an outlet and has been since I was a YouTuber in middle school and high school. But it's almost like you can't stop. You've opened the can of worms. It's like, what are you supposed to do? Just be like, anyways, back to normal life. It's impossible to do. I'm hopeful that I can solve the case in some way. I've said this from the beginning. I do not know if this case will ever go to court. I don't know if there will ever be enough evidence. I do not know if anyone will come forward as an eyewitness and say, hey, I was there. This guy did it. I was also part of it. Cut me a plea deal, whatever. However, I would like at some point to get to a place where maybe they've come to me and they've said, hey, I did it or I was there and I know what happened. Here's the truth. And there won't ever be enough to convict me. So there's

really nothing that anyone can do about that. But if I can go to bed at night and know who killed my dad, I think that will be enough for me because of the work done to get it to this point, the lack of evidence collected, the shoddy investigative work. I really had to set those expectations of like, there might not ever in the court of law that exists in the United States today, there might not ever be enough to convict someone. So I have to be okay with just the knowing and the knowing being enough. I have a weird amount of empathy for people and actions that they commit. In high school, I went to a Christian weirdo little high school in West Virginia.

So like our textbooks were the Bible. It's so crazy. So we had this conversation. I was in 12th grade. I was a senior in high school. And there was a conversation we were having in like our politics class. And the question came up about the death penalty

in the United States. And at the time, I did not know that my dad was murdered. So this is very strange. We were talking about it. And everyone in my class, of course, these West Virginia folks are like, yeah, we love the death penalty. If you kill somebody, you should die. And I remember raising my hand and going, I don't know about that. If somebody killed my parent, I said this, I don't know if I would want them to die because they've got families and maybe kids and parents and siblings and whatever else. And like their whole family has to suffer because they killed someone, that's crazy to me. I've lost a parent. I know what that's like. Imagine my dad killed someone and now I

have to be fatherless. I can't even visit him in prison because someone thought he should die. And lo and behold, I had no idea at the time that my dad was murdered. I do believe Ohio has the death penalty, and it would never be up to me, obviously, the punishment level, the sentencing for murder in my dad's case, but I would never, ever want someone to die for killing my dad. And so if, for whatever reason, I find out who did it, and I know that they could never be convicted, and they just get to live their life, I might be okay with that. I don't know, because I don't know who did it. But I'd imagine that the knowing would maybe be enough. I think that's beautiful. And I think it just speaks to like the fact that I think you have the right intentions with making this show,

which is that you're trying to get answers because those answers are important to you and could potentially also help some other people in your family rest with this and that your dad just didn't get the justice that he deserved. That's just an important thing to like have answers and have some sense of closure on it. And you're not on a revenge journey. That can be hard for people to understand because they're trying to imagine maybe what they would feel like if they were in your position and maybe they would feel differently. And I think that's okay. That maybe gives you a better chance of getting what might feel like a good outcome of this. You know, the reality is if the police messed it up 22 years ago, the idea that they're

going to sort of unwind it now is pretty complicated. One of the things that you have to face when you decide of your own volition to become a true crime podcaster and start digging into all this stuff and reading police reports and doing FOIA requests and all that kind of thing is how ineffective a lot of these systems are. And having reported last season on a case that people had really strong feelings about and seeing kind of some of the reactions to this, I forget that maybe people are walking around living in a world where they think that the police solve most murders that happen or where they think that people don't abuse their children.

I'm just like, oh, wow, I can't even like put myself back in that mindset. And maybe I was one of those people before all of this came into my life. Like I'm sort of the opposite of you. I have a long memory of a whole life that I lived where I was just like, la, la, la, the world works and things are good. And it's never going to happen to me. It's never going to happen to my family. I was just about to say, but we're the delusional ones.

And these people are going around going, oh, nothing bad ever happens. Yeah. Or like this person got her kids back. Surely that means there was evidence in their favor. Nope. Wow. What a world. What a thing to imagine.

Yeah, surely they get everyone. Surely the system works and convicts people and everyone looks at the evidence with a clear head and judges never make the wrong call. And, you know, it's just like, wow, I can't imagine. Isn't that so funny? If a car kept breaking down more often than it ran, you'd get rid of the car. And I mean, statistically speaking, the system doesn't work more often than it does. And for whatever reason, nobody's like, wonder if we should fix that. It's like the opposite of if it's not broke, don't fix it.

It's like, well, if it is broke, you got to fix it, right? It's like the opposite of if it's not broke, don't fix it. It's like, well, if it is broke, you got to fix it, right? It's like the opposite. But it's so wild to me that we tout our judicial system worldwide as one of the best. I mean, I've lived in other countries. I've spent a lot of time traveling. And the connotation is that the American judicial system is top-notch. And I'm like, that's a system that honestly, on paper, works less than it does. And that's crazy to me. In all fronts. I mean, not just in our situations, but on every level. Yeah, 100%. And I think people bring really strong

emotions to these things. And people have really strong emotional ties to their feelings about the police and, you know, the carceral system and the justice system. And obviously, people bring strong emotions to the idea of child abuse and child abuse investigations. And something that happens all the time with me, especially, again, as I dug into a case where people had strong feelings about it and where there wasn't a criminal conviction because the perpetrator died in the middle of an investigation, is this idea of people will say, well, there are so many problems with the system. And you're like, yes, correct. You know, for example, with child abuse, 76%, three quarters of family removals happen because of reasons related to poverty and resources, problems that can be solved by giving those families money, essentially.

I'm talking about the 24% that are child abuse cases. Most child abuse cases are not prosecuted, and those children are not permanently removed from their parents. Talk to the people you know. You knew people who were abused as children that were raised by those parents and had CPS coming in and out and never did anything. Those problems coexist and they are all intertwined with each other. You kind of get people painting these things with such a broad brush and just like, oh, CPS is bad and therefore anytime CPS is involved, that parent's innocent. It's just like people come to these completely bizarre conclusions. And it's only once you're digging into these things that you realize like,

oh, these are complicated systems and they are made up of human beings who are doing human shit with all of their biases and all of their follies. These are not these systems that are purely functional. And like, there are good people and there are bad people. And they're like, you know, sometimes people will be like, oh, this podcast is pro-cop because I work closely with a detective that is on my show a lot. And I'm like, no, no, I'm pro that cop. I was like, I like that one.

He's doing a good job. He's doing a good job investigating child abuse perpetrators. Like, I want him to be able to do his work. It's the whole system around it that is like problematic. I think it's really given me a respect for how complicated this is and how people are just making calls. You realize, oh, there was just cops that were human beings that came to the house that day and did or didn't do what they were supposed to do. And there wasn't like this structure in place and all these protocols where

they were going to be held accountable for it. Same with mine. It's like, oh, there was a two year long police investigation that was then handed off to a prosecuting attorney who's an elected official. And that person made a call. And they just made a decision based on a whole bunch of different factors. How popular is this going to be? How's it going to play out in the media? Are we going to get the W on this? What can we sort of blame it on or not? And it's just like, oh, that was just a person sitting in a chair looking at a case file making a call at the end of the day. People who are not familiar with it would be shocked like how much it comes down to that kind of thing. Just a lady, just a dude, just whatever non-gender conforming individual, whatever, sitting in a chair making a decision based on whatever complicated set of factors and personal motivations they're making that decision on. Oh, yes. It is so weirdly political. I mean, everything is, in a way, politics and capitalism all kind of go together. And it's terrible because there's people sort of just left in the mix, in the middle. And those are the ones who are sort of defenseless because they don't have the resources or the knowledge to sort of play, again, the game to make things right for themselves or for their loved ones.

And some people are able to sort of figure that out early on and play the game well enough to sort of find justice for themselves. And I think that's always I'm rooting for those people. But some people just don't have those resources or the knowledge. And that's why there's a massive percentage of people who don't get removed from their homes or cases go unsolved. And it's all just left to die, lack of a better word. Yeah. And just kind of languish, having known Mike Weber, the detective who's on our show a lot, for years. There's this famous case, the Geronimo Aguilar case in Texas that was a sexual assault case against children. And it was a guy who was a, I believe he was a pastor. And it sat on some detective's desk for seven years,

and he picked it up and got a conviction. Just the thought of that and like that that's happening again, more than it's not happening, especially in violent crimes. That's where the clearance rates are really low. Murder and sexual assault and child abuse, I mean, these are the kind of cases where they're not getting solved more than other kinds of cases. And I think that that's shocking to people that maybe just have a little bit too much faith in the system after watching too much Law & Order or something. Totally. Oh, my God, I know. America's Most Wanted was like my favorite show growing up, and they would always do the like, and we caught the guy episode where they're like revisiting, you know, an old thing. And I'm like, are they acting like this happens all the time?

What's up? This is like the one time, you know, that this happens. And yeah, it's sad because there's so many people sort of left without answers and just really have no idea what happened to their loved one or kids who grow up to be adults who are wondering why no one stepped in. And the answer is that the system does not work for everyone. And there is a very small subset of people that it works really well for and a large set of people that it does not work really well for. And the people who make all of the decisions are part of the small set of people that it works for. So they don't even realize, I think, sometimes that it doesn't work. So they're not thinking about fixing it because to them it's not broken.

And that's the problem. The further I get into this, the more I, you know, am exploring these sort of ideas of like, maybe these just are not the systems that we need, period. And the system just doesn't work from top to bottom. And that is sort of disorienting in a way. And I also think about the creeping bad feeling that I've had as of late is, oh, maybe the system is working the way it was designed to work. It's not the way that we think it should work, but I think maybe it's working as it was supposed to work according to those who designed it. Oh, of course. I mean, I even think about my dad. And if my dad was murdered because of his confidential informant career, then it's because of the way that the system was set up.

And as a result, through the loop of everything, the system killed my dad. dad was living and drug dealing is an area where, not to get all conspiracy theory, the government was funneling cocaine to these areas and arresting Black people. And that's just what was happening, the war on drugs. And my dad was involved in that and probably at one point a massive beneficiary of that because he was making a ton of money. And then got caught and had to turn and become an informant. And now he's dead. There's a lot we know about what went down at that point in history. And from my perspective, especially as I look at this sort of parents' rights movement that's attached itself to these false accusations of child abuse, heavy scare quotes around all of that. It wasn't that long ago in the United States where child abuse wasn't considered a crime at all. It

was just people disciplined their children as they saw fit. Children were seen as the property of their parents. And that was the way we looked at it. And these are relatively new developments. And I was like, this is a movement to take us back to that place. That is a time that there's no small number of people, unfortunately, who I think wants it to be that way and thinks that what goes on between parents and children should not be the responsibility of the government. It's moved in the right direction, and yet it's so fragile. Similar with some of the stuff that you're talking about. It's like we're just on the brink of having some awareness about how the police deal with Black communities, etc. But the progress is

so fragile. Things maybe have gotten better since the 1990s, and yet still the overall system is tough. So that's just, you know, a couple of small problems that you and I with our independent podcasts are going to fix. So that's what we're doing here, guys. Madison and Andrea, solving the world's problems from our microphones. I mean, I did when I was a senior in college. My sorority did superlatives, and I won most likely to run for president. I think legally you have to be 35 and you are quite young. Do you think you can get it together in time for the 2024 election? Because listen, I would love nothing more. I think I have, what, two more elections after this one before I can

legally run. So I have time to really let things go to shit before I come in as like the hero of the story. But if there's like a country left to run for president for, I will think about it very hard. Two more election cycles and then Madison McGee for president. I mean, listen, reality television star as president, why not true crime podcaster as president? Totally. I think I'll be in your cabinet, babe. I mean, I love like a little blazer and, you know, like cute pics. I'm in. That could be very cute. That could be very cute for you. For Gen Z, you know. Well, this has been so wonderful to have you on. Can you tell everyone what you are doing, where to find you, and how best to support you?

Yes. I have a podcast called Ice Cold Case where I'm investigating my dad's unsolved murder from Belmont County, Ohio. It's Ice Cold Case on Instagram, Ice Cold Case wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Madison McGee, Madison underscore McGee on everything. If you type in my name, I should pop up. You can send tips if you have any info. That's cool to literally anything. You can email me, DM me. I don't care. I'll take them. If you somehow have my phone number, then great. You can write me a letter. I think the Jehovah's Witnesses have my address because I get all of their mail. And listening to the show is obviously the most helpful. Downloading the episodes, all the things,

writing reviews, yada, yada. If you are listening to this podcast, you probably know all that, but you know the spiel. It all really helps. And tell your friends. We're going to put also, you're doing some crowdfunding right now. I know everyone hates talking about crowdfunding, but people should be aware that, as you said, to make a show that is the quality of yours, and you put a lot of effort into your show. That is something that takes resources. And so nobody likes asking for money, but I'll do it on your behalf. So if you guys have a little bit of money to put towards the podcast, put it towards Madison's.

It's an excellent show and I want her to be able to keep making it. So yeah, listen to the show. I love it. It's my favorite true crime podcast I've listened to in a long time. Yeah, get in there. Get on the journey.

It's a fascinating, fascinating project. And I am just on pins and needles to know where it all goes. Thank you. You're going to make me cry. Was there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about? Is there anything else just you want to say to our listeners before we let you go? No, this was like incredible. I mean, this was so fun in like a weird way because it's also like therapy, but like really enjoyable and such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. This means

the world to me. I mean, I adore you and I think you're amazing, but this was just such a treat. Yeah, it was a treat for me as well. I literally have so many more questions that I could ask you, but I really want people to listen to your show. It's so good. I appreciate it. Thank you. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments

about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. And if you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich Schmeichsenbog. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About

You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand

new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.