Nobody Should Believe Me - Gypsy-Rose Blanchard Part 1

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

In this episode, Andrea talks with Gypsy Rose Blanchard about life after surviving Munchausen by proxy, incarceration, and becoming a public figure without her consent. Two years after her release from prison, Gypsy reflects on what it means to build a sense of self after years of extreme control, medical abuse, and sudden media attention.  Their conversation explores the realities of Munchausen by proxy, including the systemic failures that allow abuse to continue and the long-term impact on survivors’ development, autonomy, and relationships. Gypsy shares what accountability and growth look like for her today.  * * * https://www.officialgypsyroseblanchard.com/ Follow Gypsy on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gypsyrose.insta Watch Mommy Dead and Dearest: https://www.hbomax.com/movies/mommy-dead-and-dearest/87b41129-1e1e-41ff-b32c-926711b94311 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea Dunlop, and today on Nobody Should Believe Me, we have a very special episode that is a full-circle moment for me and the show, my conversation with Gypsy Rose Blanchard. It seems unlikely that anyone listening would be unfamiliar with Gypsy's story. But as a refresher, Gypsy Rose Blanchard is an American woman who, after suffering lifelong munchausen by proxy abuse, conspired with her online boyfriend, Nicholas Goda John,

to kill her mother, D.D. Blanchard, in June of 12. 2015. Gypsy pled guilty to second-degree murder in 2016 and received a 10-year prison sentence. She was paroled on December 28, 2003, after serving about eight years. Gypsy and her story have been the subject of major media attention, including documentaries, dramatizations, a reality show, and extensive tabloid coverage. And we're going to talk about all of that today. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Fiscally responsible. Financial geniuses, monetary magicians.

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to get rid of these by tightening our filters. And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE. I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants. Immigrants make this country great. Well, first of all, I wanted to have you introduce yourself to listeners using the context that you would like. So who are you according to Gypsy? I am. Okay, so who am I?

My name is Gypsy Rose Blanchard. And I am an author. and I am a mother, a proud mother. I love that. I love that. So, Gypsy, we had an interesting sort of circuitous route to one another. Obviously, when you were released from prison, is it two years ago now? Two years, yeah.

Yeah. That was a big news story. Obviously, I have the only podcast that I know of that covers Munchausen by proxy cases pretty exclusively to this point. So obviously a lot of people asked. me about interviewing you. And I said to folks who asked me that question at the time, you know, I'd be much more interested in talking to her a couple of years from now. And here we are. So it feels really fortuitous. And I'm really happy that you reached out. So we originally actually met each other because your producers of your Lifetime series reached out to me and taped a

conversation where you asked me some questions. And so I was really happy to connect. with you in that context. That was when your baby was brand new. I remember seeing her on the on the on the on the on the screen there. And then you reached out to me more recently and and so thank you so much for for coming on. And my first question for you is just how are you doing? What's your life all about right now? My life right now is all about motherhood. And there's really little time for anything else. So I spend my day. doing the whole housework mom thing that seems to take up all of my time. I have few hobbies, but the things that my life is about right now is healing and learning how to navigate a life that is post-prison, but also post the surge of media attention after getting released. Yeah, I think it's fair to say you've had a

pretty unique set of life experiences. You know, growing up in an abusive home where you were extremely isolated, being in prison, which is another sort of set of very different social circumstances, I would assume, from the outside world. And then going into this period of your life where you were out of prison and you had this massive surge of media attention and online fame slash infamy, whichever way you would characterize it. Um, And now do you feel like you're in kind of a new chapter or has that sort of attention on you persisted? I am wondering like sort of how how that is now. I think it has lessened over time. You know, there was that initial surge of people posting about me and media attention

and everything. And now that we're, you know, two years post all that, there is still attention. it is not as much as it was in the beginning. But at least it's enough to where, like, it's died down enough to where I can go to the grocery store and only be recognized like once. That must just be incredibly intense. And I think, you know, I think a lot about sort of what your relationship with social media must be like because, you know, you, can you remind me how, and I know this is sort of part of your story, but how old are you, chronologically speaking? I'm 34. Okay, you're 34. Yeah. So, you know, these technologies were around when you were younger. I'm 43. So, like, I really was like the last age of person to, like,

grow up without social media and, like, I didn't have a cell phone until after college. But, you know, so obviously some of those technologies were around when you were growing up, but obviously you were growing up in very specific set of circumstances. And then, you know, I assume those things were not available to you, you know, the way they are on the outside when you were in prison. Facebook was a thing. TikTok was not. TikTok had came in to the picture almost at the middle to tail end of my prison sentence.

So that was not something that I knew navigating before I got locked up. And what kind of, when you were in prison, what kind of sort of technologies and communications were available to you while you're in prison? Very, very limited. We had personal tablets assigned to us that through the course of my prison sentence, we were able to get more and more apps over time. Particularly we were excited about the phone app. So we were allowed to call our family on the tablet after. so long. And we were able to have like little games and stuff like that, but it was not internet accessible. Right. So you didn't have kind of unfettered access to social media accounts and that kind of thing. So, you know, then you come out of prison and then you immediately develop this just massive social media following, you know, millions and millions

of people. And, you know, that would be jarring, I think, for someone in any, set of circumstances, frankly, you know, I think the experience of going viral, I think can be downright traumatic under the best of circumstances. And this was obviously not the best of circumstances. So I wonder kind of like, yeah, how you've navigated that piece because, you know, I was listening to an interview with you. You're talking about that you had something like eight million followers on Instagram and then deleted that account, which I think for people, who are, you know, the large number of people that are pretty obsessed with building that kind of following or anything even sort of a percentage of that kind of following just sort of

feels almost, it just is inconceivable, right? So yeah, so talk to us about that kind of that decision and just some of the decisions that you've made around social media and how you've navigated that, because that's just the most intense experience I can imagine on social media. It is. So when, before I got out of prison, I had asked my then-husband, now ex-husband, to create social media for me. So Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. So he had made these accounts for me. So when I would get out, I would have access to them and already built a small following. So I think right before I got out, I had like maybe 500 followers. And then overnight, it went into the millions. Like we just kept watching. climb and climb and climb and climb. And so for me, social media was something fun. Like it was something that I got to do TikTok dances and little cute clothing halls and stuff like this. But there was also such a call to action for me to treat it more seriously as a platform to advocate. And so here I am, fresh out of prison, don't even have my own feet on the ground.

And people are like, you need to advocate. You need to be basically what you are in a night. And that was a lot of pressure on me. And then mix that with, you know, of course, the internet's going to do what the internet's going to do. They're going to build you up and tear you down. So after so many months, I started to see people trying to tear me down. And in the mix of all that, I was also on parole.

And so my parole officer had told me that it would probably, probably be in my best interest if I would just stay off social media. It wasn't a direct order. It was a suggestion. And so that's when I deleted the 9 million follower Instagram, but maintained the, you know, 9 million, 10 million, um, TikTok account. And so that's what kind of sparked that decision was just because I was tired of all the harassing phone calls that people were making to my parole officer falsely reporting me for anything and everything. So it's kind of like I have had a love-hate relationship with social media. There's so many people that do support me. And then there's also so many people that are part of the anti-JIP community.

There is two different communities, which is it's wild. I say they are just as extreme as those who follow politics. You have your pro-gypsy and your anti-gypsy, and they butt heads, they go to war. It is a serious thing. Like, it's wild. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you talked to me. You're talking about that sort of intense pressure for you, because watching from the outside, I just thought this young woman has been through so much.

they have not had time to heal, develop coping mechanisms, all of those things that really, you know, I had to do before I was ready to talk about anything that I'd been through publicly. And there are like many, many important distinctions between, you know, your experience and mine, namely being that I'm not a survivor of childhood trauma and that is different. I was older when I made the decision to talk publicly. and it had been a long time since that those events actually sort of happened in my life. And I'd had a lot of time to process. And it's something I've thought about a lot as, you know, I've interviewed various survivors

and as I've talked to people who are considering telling their story publicly, you know, whether they're a family member or a direct survivor of the abuse is like trying to help them make sure that they're ready for that because people are going to have opinions. You cannot control. You know, I always try and tell people like I can make, at a time, choices about how we tell the story and what to include, but I cannot control how people react. That's just not something that's under my control. And that experience, even on the much, you know, smaller level of being on my show, which it's, you know, we're big for a podcast, but we're not

talking about, you know, nine million sort of and like all this huge major media attention that you had. And like, you know, and I'll even talk to people who they really have a good intention around it. They say, I want to share my story because I want to help other people and, and I think that's a really noble intention, but the reality is it's not going to go well if that person's not feeling safe and supported in telling that story and feeling like they're really ready. And what I saw with your story was really no one gave you a choice about whether or not you were ready to take on that position of being this monolithic representation of all survivors of Munchaus and Biproxy, which is not fair. Exactly. It wasn't something that I was ready to take on at the time because I'm like, I'm still even trying to figure out how a curing works. I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate streaming because back in prison and before that, we had cable. Streaming wasn't a thing or at least it just started to be a thing that we didn't even have. So, you know, coming out, I'm learning how to survive, gain independence. When I first got out, I didn't even know how to drive. So that was something that I was navigating too. So it's like all of these normal things I'm just learning.

So it's not like I had a foundation to be like, okay, yeah, I'm ready to tackle on being an advocate right now because I'm still trying to heal myself. And a friend of mine had posed a question to me. And I thought about it long and hard. And the fact is, is that mainstream media, They want the story and to produce the story and put out the story when it's big and it's hot and it's fresh. No one is going to say, okay, I can see that you're not ready. We'll be back in two, three years whenever you're ready to talk, we'll be here.

That's not what they say. That's not how they present it. And so I have kind of thought about choices that I have made and not necessarily regret, but I feel like I could have done some choices differently for the benefit of my own healing instead of jumping right in. Yeah. And, you know, as other survivors are thinking about telling their stories publicly, as they're, you know, going on social media and thinking about talking it there, or if they're, you know, doing something that's sort of on a podcast or on a documentary, I mean,

what would your, what kind of perspective can you offer about the choices that you might have made differently. I think that if I could have gone back and done things differently, I would have waited to share my story in its entirety until after I've had therapy. Because I started, you know, I'm not saying that I regret writing my memoir. I just kind of feel like the timing of it, I wish I would have gotten intense therapy as I was or even before writing the manuscript. Because there are some things now that I have healed from that I can, you know, maybe elaborate a little differently on or have hindsight that could have helped me back then. But like I said, I am appreciative of all of the media outlets and the producers that have given me a platform

to share my story because I feel like in a sense that helped a lot of people. be aware of Munchausen by proxy. But it is kind of like at the expense of me. So that's something that now, two years later of being free, you know, getting out of prison, I am knee deep in therapy. You know, I'm doing the work. And as I'm doing the work, I'm starting to have realizations and understandings more of my feelings and give my feelings.

and give myself that grace. Hold myself accountable for the wrong choices that I've made, but give myself slowly self-forgiveness too. Do you know what I'm wearing right now? A beautiful cashmere hoodie from Quince. Do you know what I got my mom and my mother-in-law for Christmas? Kashmir sweaters from Quince. Do you know what I got my husband last Christmas?

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And speaking of layers, Quince has you covered from top to bottom. They have perfect teas, tanks, long-sleeve shirts, and outerwear. I'm currently on the wait list for the mixed media down and cashmere jacket. I got to put in a call. I want that thing so bad. If you've been listening for a while, you know that I love Quince and what's not to love? Everything is made from premium materials in ethical, trusted factories, and then priced far below what other luxury brands charge.

So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your orders and 365-day returns. now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E-com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. As a person who's in this community, your story absolutely has helped people have some working

understanding of Munchaus and Biproxy and at least know what it is, because that is. certainly, you know, these events happened in my own life within my own family. You know, I mean, back in the early 2010s was when this situation was happening in my family. And there was, you know, that was before the story of your case. And sort of watching that progression of awareness in the public and in the media has been profound. I mean, that's the thing that when I, you know, when I'm having that, you know, strange dinner party conversation of like, what do you do for a living? And I decide to answer that question, honestly, instead of just being like, oh, I'm a writer and stuff. But, you know, when I tell people that and then the minute I say Montchazam by proxy, I mean, almost everyone.

It's like, oh, yeah, the Gypsy Ro's Blanchard case, right? And obviously that has, it's fraught because there were, you know, some very sensationalized versions of your story that we can kind of talk about. And I'd love to know kind of how you feel about some of the ways in which your story has been represented and misrepresented. And I also know that you didn't choose to be the face of this and that that was not an active choice on your behalf to bring it out of the shadows. And so I just want to recognize that that has, I see where that has come at the cost of your well-being, safety, mental health. And I'm sorry that it had to be that way. And just know that, like, within my community of people, the professionals who've been working on it for decades that I've been so lucky to connect with, the survivors, the people that listen to the show, very much, very much rooting for you. Thank you.

And so, obviously, your story has been the subject of, you know, in addition to sort of the tabloid gossip and the sort of, you know, writing about you and every single thing you're doing and your romantic relationship. and et cetera, et cetera, has been the on and on and on, has been the subject of a couple of really substantive documentaries and dramatization, the act. And I think it has led to this idea that you personally have somehow cashed in in this big way on the events that happened to your life. And I don't think that perception is in line with reality. And you have been involved or not involved in some of these projects directly. Some of these projects happened to my understanding without your involvement or even your consent. So can you talk a little bit about how you were involved with some of these products?

And it's just sort of like what people may not understand about what it is to be a person who is famous in the context of being, you know, the victim and an accessory to a crime. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the documentaries, whether I had participated or not, I prefer documentaries compared to dramatizations that, you know, Hollywood created. And of course, you know, like the act, yes, they had some things that, you know, was factual, but there was a lot of also things that were fill-ins. So I get people that still to this day are like, I'm so sorry, you know, you lost your hamsters. And I'm like, I never had hamsters.

I had cats. But come to find out Joey King is allergic, I think, to cats. Well, they had to substitute with hamsters. I'm not sure. But, you know, I was part, my first documentary was Aaron Lee Carr's HBO, Mommy Dead and Dearest. and that was already being filmed when I took my plea deal. So it was kind of like everybody had done their interview. My parents did their interview.

It was already being made as I was going through my trial, or not trial, but court proceedings. All that was left was for me to speak. So on the day that I got sentenced, I gave my interview to that. and I never got to watch it until I was released because we didn't have HBO in prison. So that had you watched it. Have you watched it now? I have and I cried. I cried.

There was a part where I hug my dad and I'm like, Daddy, I don't want to go because I was being sent to prison and I was just like bawling. But watching that documentary, you know, that's the documentary that started at all, you know, before any of these other. ones, that one was the first one. And I became well known, but it wasn't until the act came out that it threw me into this category that some, I don't particularly like the term celebrity because I don't think of myself as that, especially when you kind of trace back, what do you infamous for? I don't like that. It's uncomfortable. for me. But it did spin me into a category of well-known in the public eye. And I was getting so many messages on my tablet in prison, hundreds and hundreds a day. And I feel like I became a

character in a TV show. It was no longer, the documentary had a foundation where it was, okay let's tell this girl's story but then the TV show turned me into a TV character and that was hard to be seen as someone like you know so much about my life I don't know you you're a complete stranger but you know everything about my life um and then I went on to do um can I just can I just ask can I just ask about the act um did the producers or the actors or anyone I mean did they consult with you? Were you involved in that project at all? Not at all. I was in no way attached to that project at all. Yeah. And I, I, that has been my understanding. And I will say, like, I don't think that's ethically sound from my perspective. I don't think it is either.

And, you know, I've watched both. I watched the documentary made by, Erin Lee Carr, she's a tremendously capable director. Very much. You know, and that they interviewed Dr. Mark Feldman, who's a, you know, close friend and colleague and was really my entry point into talking to people in the professional sphere about this. So it felt very different to me. And, you know, whenever I'm asked about your case, I sort of, if you're going to watch sort of one thing, sort of either watch the things, watch the things that you participated in.

because it did really feel as though, and I actually was, that was my first interview about publicly, because this was around the time that my novel came out that was based on my family situation. It was my first time talking about any of it publicly. And I did an interview with Vanity Fair about the act and some of the other things and was sort of talking about what I felt it got wrong about Munchaus in My Proxy. And also that I was very frustrated that. Patricia Arquette, who plays your mom in the act, was saying some things publicly about Montchazin by proxy that were very misleading and, you know, saying like, well, I just tried to think about when I'm worried my kids are, and I was just like, oh, no, this is not like that.

You're giving people the wrong idea about what this is. And it just became clear to me watching the roll out of that, oh, these people did not bother to, and I mean, I know almost all the main experts on this now. They didn't talk to any of those people. They didn't reach out to Mark Feldman. They didn't reach out to Be York or Mary Sanders or, you know, they just did zero due diligence. And it's like here there is this moment of maximum visibility for this abuse. And again, it's not fair to make you a monolith for that. But nonetheless, here it is.

It's on this big stage. They had this huge opportunity because that was a huge hit for Hulu. That was the most popular show that had been on Hulu at the time. And I was like, they're doing press about this. you know, Patricia Arquette's doing it, Joey King's doing it, the producers are doing it. They have this unprecedented opportunity to just say something real and smart about Munchausen by proxy, and they absolutely did not. And miss the mark for sure.

Absolutely missed the mark. And then I also, you know, when I found out that you were not involved, not compensated, that's not like, just to say to all of my true crime fellow creators. And, you know, we make decisions about, you know, there have been instances where we have told details about someone's story and they weren't involved. That is one of the most difficult ethical dilemmas we have on the show. And the only reasons we've gone forward with it was because we felt like it was important to protect the children in that situation. And otherwise, I wouldn't do it. And there was no such, like, there's no such argument for the act, right?

That was just taking the most sensational sort of version of that story, dramatizing it for. or entertainment purposes and money, right? And none of which went back to you, to any survivors. Like, there might have been a net benefit again just like from awareness about munchausen by proxy existing. But like there was no intentionality from the creators of the act to do anything more with it than tell us. No, not at all.

I will say that I want to say maybe it was two years later after the act was created. one of the producers. I don't remember which one, because it has been some time, but he understood that I was done really wrong. And he did, again, this was not compensation for the show. It was his own money that he set in a trust fund for me because he acknowledged how wrong it was.

And he told me he's like, I can't speak on the legitimate. of it, but I can tell you this is from my heart. This is what I want to do. This is for you. And I told them, thank you so much. And that was that was that. So that was very kind of. Yeah, that's a, I think we can recognize that as an individually ethical choice to write or wrong that, you know, probably, probably wasn't entirely his call. But it sounds like that to me speaks to a recognition of why that production was not ethical to begin with. Right.

Yeah. And then so you've, you know, you've had some projects sort of starting, you know, filming when you were sort of towards the end of your prison sentence and then with this lifetime series that kind of followed you. So yeah, I mean, what's your experience of that been like? And why did you decide that this was the sort of your, the next move was reality television for you getting up? Yeah.

It wasn't something that I was, you know, expecting necessarily because I had did the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose Blanchard. And it was our lifetime documentary. We finished that. But, you know, there was the option for the network to kind of pick up more episodes post-prison. And so we just kind of went on with it. So it was like a continuation on the original prison. and confessions.

And then it became its own second season and stuff like this. So it kind of was a doc you follow. And it was wonderful to film. We had a great cast crew producers. Everybody was so lovely to work with. And it was something that showcased that it was like a time capsule of what I was going through post-prison. Yeah.

And, you know, watching that, I'm so glad to hear that you had a good experience with the producers and the production because I think that makes, you know, that makes all the difference, right? And like, and people's intentions and how they want to present the story, you know, you have, I think being on the production side, you recognize that you have a lot of power over how that person's story is presented. So I'm glad you felt like they used that well and that it served you well. And I think it seemed, it seemed very clear to me, why it would be important for you after all of that, after the act and all of that kind of thing, to tell your story in your own words and really take, rest some control over the narrative. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice to be able to just kind of like show the good and the bad of me. It's kind of like, yeah, I made some good choices. I made some achievements. You know, it showcased, you know, unfortunately, you know, me going through my divorce and

things like that. But that's all real stuff. It's like my life is no longer a bad. prison and, you know, necessarily the trauma of my past. It's kind of like everything that I'm going through on a daily basis is my current life. And so I just, I wanted the opportunity to show people like, okay, this is, this is me who I am today. Love me, hate me. These are my choices. They might not always be right, but they're real. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health, from the big milestones to the quiet ones.

wins. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today. Medcan. Live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. I wanted to just kind of pivot back and ask a couple of questions about your mom and kind of some, some of the, maybe some of the misperceptions that I think are really, will really probably resonate with a lot of fellow survivors. So you've said in interviews that, you know, it's important to you that people don't see or characterize your mother as a monster.

And that's something that really resonates with me. So how should we see people like your mom? What's a better framing? I think a better framing and keep in mind that I do go through lots of emotions and I have mixed emotions about this topic on a daily. So one day I could say I don't feel like we should categorize her that way. And the other day I'm still healing. So I'm like, she was terrible and I talk a lot of crap. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, taking my emotion. out of it and just working on facts alone. I think that, you know, my mom grew up in a time

where mental health was not talked about. It was not addressed. Things, whenever it comes to your emotions and your mental health was just swept under the rug. So I think it's so vastly important for people to recognize that individuals like this are normally people with low self-esteem. And I feel like given support and therapy and the acknowledgement that this is an issue that they have, it could be addressed and possibly treated. You know, I feel like they're not monsters. And I asked you this question, you know, last year, whenever we got to have our chat, I asked you because it was a question that plagued me for so long. Was my mother aware that what she was doing was wrong? And you told me that yes, she was aware.

And of course, I went through my own emotions after that call. But that is something that is hard for survivors. It's a hard pill to swallow. And it's something that, no, we can't sweep under the rug. that they are, you know, they are aware of it, but maybe, maybe you can correct me, is it something that they cannot control? And then their, therefore, therapy needs to be the intervention. Because I think that, you know, these people are humans, whether their actions are wrong or right or justified, not justified. They are humans and they are someone's loved one. You know,

they are someone's mother, they're someone's father, there's someone's character, there's someone's caregiver. There's someone to someone. I know that sounds rich coming from me, but it's just part of it. I mean, it's extremely, it's extremely complex. And, you know, what you're expressing, those are feelings I've gone through about my own sister. I asked that question of Dr. Mark Feldman when I first met him. Does she know? Do people who do this understand what they're doing because I think it's a much more comforting idea to think, oh, no, they really believe their kids sick or they're, you know, they're confused or they're having this sort of mental health issue that makes them sort of not culpable for their behavior, right? Because it's really horrible to think about someone doing this in a calculated, premeditated way. And, but that is

the reality. And I think it's like we can still face that reality. and preserve the humanity of everyone involved. And I think that's important because I think when we make monsters out of perpetrators of crimes, we're holding it at a distance, right? Like as watchers were saying, well, that would never happen to anyone I know. That would never happen in my family. That would never happen in my neighborhood. That would never be a mom that's on my PTA.

And the reality of what we know about this abuse now is that it absolutely could be, you know, your family member, you know, in your situation, you know, your mom did have a history of abuse and came from, you know, I think as you've really revealed a family of some pretty significant dysfunction in her own right. My sister didn't. Hope Yubara didn't. There's many perpetrators that there are some perpetrators that come from abusive backgrounds. There's some that don't. It isn't this sort of like cyclical thing that it is in some other forms of abuse. And so, you know, I think it's important to grapple with it. And I think there are these pieces that really we have to kind of tease out when we're talking about it's not a single intervention. There's the question of like,

can this person be treated? And I know you're going to have a conversation with Dr. Mary Sanders. Is it dear friend? And I think we were talking about also setting you up with Dr. Kathy Ayup to maybe have a conversation for this show, which I think would be really helpful to you. But, you know, yeah, it's like the treatment is very, very challenging with this. Very challenging. There's going to be the reality is there's going to be a very small number of perpetrators who are going to acknowledge their behavior. And that's the first step for treatment. So there is a treatment model.

There are, you know, there are steps they can take, but it's a lifelong recovery process. It's, you know, and it's it's unlikely. I think we can assume that, like, yes, we should look at treatment. We should always hold that space. And we have to be kind of realistic about that. And then I think there's the totally separate question of, is this a person who is safe around children. And you can still preserve someone's humanity and say, but, okay, you've crossed some lines here where we're not going to take chances leaving children alone in your care. And I wanted to

ask you, you know, because this is a question, I think that it's really important to me to ask any survivor. Like dealing with child abuse is quite complicated as a society, right? When is it better to remove the child from that situation? When do we give someone a second chance? What interventions do we use? just speaking for you, not on behalf of all men, you know, by proxy survivors everywhere, what do you wish had happened in your situation? I wish that my mom would have been caught early, early on because if there could have been something that he got caught, a lie,

something I could have been removed from her care and put in the care of my dad. and that would have avoided so much because, you know, a lot of people, maybe not the, you know, the true supporters and the people in our community, but there are the naysayers that don't even acknowledge me as a survivor because they feel that I was diagnosed with micro-deletion 1-221.1. and they sort of say, well, you were sick. You were a sick child. Therefore, she didn't have Munchausen by proxy. Or she was never formally diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy. So how are we labeling it that?

And maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Yeah, I can. And that's something that we talked about a little bit when we talked for your show. That's a really common misperception slash. bad faith argument depending on who's making it. You know, because there are people who are very invested in the idea that this just isn't a real form of abuse. And so that is an argument that they use. So number one, there is no, it's a complete false argument that if a child has a real health condition, that means that is sort of exculpatory, right? That like that means abuse is not

happening. Of course abuse can happen if a person has a real thing. Because Munchausen by proxy abuse encompasses exaggerating, inducing, and fabricating, you know, illnesses in a child. And so I don't know anything about your genetic condition that you do have, but I would guess that quite a lot of the interventions that your mom, you know, applied had nothing to do with your condition. And so it doesn't mean that they can't make it worse. And we know, and also, so there's that. And that comes up a lot, right? Like a lot of perpetrators will say, well, I got this diagnosis from a doctor. well, okay, but if you got that diagnosis from a doctor and you use deception to do it, well, then that's abuse. And even if that diagnosis is real, if you are making the condition worse, if you were lying to doctors about symptoms, if you were pushing for unnecessary interventions, those things are all still abuse.

So abuse can absolutely still happen with a child that has a real condition, and that's just a complete misunderstanding of this abuse to say that it can't. And as to the second thing of being formally, you know, diagnosed. Yeah, your mom was not criminally convicted and she's not formally diagnosed. There is still evidence of abuse because of your experience, because of what doctors have reported, because of what's in your medical records. And that is actually typically how, and I'm curious to know about how your process of how you were able to put a name to it. But, you know, that is, I think, again, a misunderstanding of Munchausen by proxy being primarily this diagnosis, you know, the psychiatric diagnosis of fact. dis disson disorder imposed on another. It is in the DSM, but like it's abuse, it's a crime, and there either is evidence of that crime or there is not evidence of that crime. And in your case,

there is evidence of the crime of your mother's abuse. And therefore, there is no legitimate question of whether or not you suffered abuse. And anyone who's saying that there is at this point, as your story has been well explored, you know, and Mark Feldman obviously participated in the documentary, he's as unassailable of an expert as there is. There, there's, there, is no legitimate question about that. I'm curious to know, obviously, while you were in the situation, you understood that something was wrong, something bad was happening. When did you first discover that this was a thing called Munchausen by proxy? What was that sort of process of revelation for you? You know, what's so interesting is when I was living in the abuse, I didn't even know that

was abuse. I thought my mom's weird, my mom's overbearing, controlling. It's like I didn't have the language to articulate what I was going through. And there was, there were people that I reached out to. You know, everybody was like, well, why don't you, why didn't you tell someone? Why didn't you ask for help? It was that I was saying things like, don't tell my mom this, but I'm telling you this. or my mom's a little controlling. She's a helicopter mom. But I didn't have the language to articulate. I'm being abused.

This is what's going on. So you were just talking about how one of the things people have said to you is sort of like, why didn't you speak up? Which, by the way, is an unfair expectation to put on any child that's being abused or any young person that's in an abuse situation, especially one as complicated as much husband by proxy. So, yeah, so you were saying that, like, you were making comments sometimes to people in your life. And there were obviously signs. There were obviously red flags for what was happening to you. And I have to believe that, like, if, you know, your dad in particular understood what Munchausen bioproxy looked like, if the doctors who were treating you, which we'll talk about it in a moment, had maybe better understood what Munchausen by proxy was, you know, there might have been some more intervention, but that should never be put on the person who's being victimized, especially because how intense the psychological manipulation is. You know, like, victims in the midst of this are often not going to have that framing. And so we can't expect victims to be like, hey, I'm being victimized in this specific way. Here is the intervention please execute it on my behalf. Right. Exactly. And so it's like my father, he didn't understand what much has a bi-proxy.

was before all this happened. Obviously, to some degree, I think my mother did. But as for myself, I didn't understand. I never heard of Munchausen by proxy before. It was not something that I ever read about, heard about, watched a TV show about. So it wasn't until after being arrested that, you know, I'm sitting there having an attorney visit with my public defender and I'm just, you know, telling him all of this stuff still in my firm of reference of not having the language to explain what I was going through, but he was

able to get a lot of what was going on from medical records. I mean, the first thing that flagged it is I could walk. It's like it's not like he had to dig and try to find this, this act. it was pretty easy by just looking at the fact that I could walk and then kind of like where she could walk. So how is how is this happening? Because she's supposedly paralyzed. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, yours is a case where it's not always this obvious. Yours is a case that was pretty obvious. I think that's almost like the classic thing, right, of like, you know, a couple things that came up in your case, right, the sort of like, oh, they have these alleged issues with eating that are not real.

They're in a wheelchair and they can't move except that they can. And, you know, I think the other thing I wanted to ask you about, because you were technically, chronologically, an adult when those events took place, there is kind of the, there are these sort of like two points where interventions could have happened to prevent the worst possible outcome. And, you know, one of them is when you're a child, right? And then you're talking about child welfare and an intervention that involves custody and that kind of thing. And obviously, in your case, that didn't happen. And I'm so sorry that that didn't happen. You deserved better. You didn't deserve to be left in that situation. And then there's this other period where you're an

adult, but obviously part of your story is that you were deceived about your actual age. and deceived about your abilities to live in a dependent life. And that's a very common part of this dynamic is that I've seen many, you know, teenagers, young adults, you know, their parent will try everything to keep them under their control, under their roof. They will convince them that they will never be able to live an adult life. That's an extremely common part of this story. And so I think that's another thing that people are really not aware of is that you are not

out of the woods once you are, you know, physically grown. And so, you know, you had a couple of attempts to leave before, you know, before you know, got together with Nick and all of that. So can you give us some insight on, you know, that piece of the experience and, you know, you talked about what you wish someone had done when you were a child? What about during that period? What would have helped you get safely out of that situation once you were no longer a child? Absolutely. You know, that's a question that, you know, and that's a weight that I put on myself is that, you know, when I was a child, it's kind of like, okay, I'm helpless. You know, there's very little that I can do. And then once I became an adult, the power dynamic sort of shifts and the blame sort of shifts, I guess, even on my own shoulders. It's kind of like a coulda, shoulda, woulda thing. And so, yes, there were many times that I probably could have, ran away. I did attempt twice, failed attempts. There were times that I could have called the police, but was too afraid to. But at the end of the day, I do feel like, even though I was an adult,

I was working with a maturity level that was not up to date with my chronological age. So yes, I was 24 when I got arrested, but mentally and emotionally, my development was stunted. So I could have been, you know, a teenager in that mind frame because of zero life experience. You know, most people mature and grow with what life experience? So if you don't have that as your foundation, you're not working up to date with your age, I guess. And you don't think about these alternatives. And so for me, I just kind of wish that I would have had the language to say, hey, I think my mom has Munchausen by proxy.

I wish I would have heard of it back then. So I could have told someone. But again, it's kind of like hindsight's 2020. And I can't go back now. So it's just. Yeah. No, and I don't think it's, you know, the purpose of sort of asking. about that is not about your personal regrets or what have you. I mean, I think it's really

healthy that you take accountability for your actions. I think that's appropriate. And I think that that framing for people in their understanding of this story is really important because I think if people are projecting what they themselves might have been like at 24, right? Like when I was 24, I was in my, you know, first job in New York City after graduating college when I was 22 and had had, you know, all kinds of, like, healthy support systems and was encouraged to be independent by my parents and had all kinds of experiences with peers that develop, you know, it's like just like all of those things are purposefully kept from Munchaus and Cy by proxy survivors in the vast majority of, in many cases, you know, especially like sort of the cases on the extreme ends.

They're not in school. They're not allowed to have relationships with peers. They're not allowed to have romantic relationships and develop all of those things and try things and fail and develop a sense of independence. And they're often told, you know, which I believe you were in your case, you'll never live an independent life. You'll always need me. And you're going to die young. And so that's like they create a very purposeful terror of the outside world. So the expectation that you could just leave, I think is just an absolute misunderstanding of the situation.

And I don't know. I would love to think that the police would have given you some helpful resources. Truthfully, I don't know because there are plenty of police that don't even understand that this is a crime when it involves a small child. So having an adult call them and say I'm in this situation. I don't know. That could have been intervention, such as, you know, my mother claimed that I was homeschooled. And as a small, small child, yes, she did. homeschool me for a small time. But then she became, I don't know, got to the point where she didn't want to anymore. And there was, you know, she was telling the doctors in the hospital, oh, she's homeschooled. Her homeschool, we call it Angel Heart Academy and give them that information,

but it was never registered with an actual school district. And it was never followed up with. And so that was something that I fell through the cracks with. So it's kind of like, yes, the school districts could have helped had I been, you know, aligned with that with real homeschooling or something. And then there's just other avenues and other things that could have been those points in which intervention could have happened. And it's just like falling through the cracks of every single one of them. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's deliberate, right? I mean, it's deliberate, right? I mean, that isolation is deliberate. And the homeschooling thing comes up in so many, not just Munchausen by proxy cases, but other abuse situations where, and of course, there are many, you know, homeschool families and homeschool parents that are not abusive. But unfortunately, for opportunistic abusers, it creates a situation where you don't have the child exposed to the outside world and, importantly, mandatory reporters of abuse, right? And a lot of reports

about Munchausen by proxy come from schools because those teachers and school nurses and administrators are if the child is in school, they're very aware of the child being taken out of school for long periods of time and they're observing the child for longer periods during the day. You know, my kid, my oldest is in school. You know, she's at school all day long, right? If I was telling the school, oh, she has, you know, she has this seizure disorder and she has all these things and all of these problems and then they're observing her being a normal child during the day. They're going to have an inkling that something is up. So that is, I think, a part of the reason why, you know, why they keep them out of school, right? They don't want other eyes on the child. And I think,

like, eyes on the child is always healthy for the child. I don't think there's any, truthfully, I don't think there's any argument for a child being isolated at home with one parent. You know, even in situations where, you know, children have profound disabilities, you know, what we hear from those parents, and we have, you know, a fair number of parents. of disabled kids that listen to the show, so I've, you know, talked to them and heard their feedback is that they really try so hard to make, to have their children have normal experience, you know, quote, sort of normal experiences, you know, or just like interactions with their peers, have as much of a life outside of their medical situations as possible. And so, like,

there's just no scenario, I think, where having a child be isolated that profoundly could ever be good for a child. Right. I agree. Yeah. And so, you, you. So, you. So, you. You know, You know, you were in a situation, which is, again, very common, where doctors clearly suspected abuse. You know, the doctors who spoke in the documentary describe this, you know, one of them, I believe, describes seeing you walk and that you were in a wheelchair. And I think for those of us that are knowledgeable about abuse, just absolutely tearing our hair out at that comment. because you understand that this doctor is breaching their ethics and honestly breaking mandatory reporting laws because I just think, sir, you're describing a massive red flag for abuse and you did not report it. And, you know, we've covered situations on this show, a couple of them, where children died because of doctors' failure to report abuse, that they suspected that they knew about, that they described very accurately, like what you are describing is abuse and you are describing

a situation where you did not report it. I'd imagine that's really a hard thing for you to reflect on. And actually, you talked in an interview about that you at some point were considering legal action against some of those doctors. I was. I was. And the only reason why I haven't is, you know, I was in prison for eight and a half years after all of this, you know, sort of happened. And so in the time that I was in prison, a lot of people are like, well, you could have had all the time in the world to build your case up, but it's like I didn't have access to the internet to try to find lawyers and do all this sort of outreach and all this kind of stuff. It wasn't accessible to the fullest ability at that time. And then once I got out, it's like with everything with the media and the documentaries, writing my, book, then getting pregnant, and my pregnancy, it's like life was just way too much to take on now another court case. So it's like, yes, you know, now that I am starting to kind of settle into a calmer life, I can reconsider that avenue and see number one statute of limitations.

What are the statute of limitations? If they have expired, then that time is up. There's something I can really do, right? Thank you so much for listening to the first part of my conversation with Gypsy. And, hey, there's much more to come. So we'll be back next week with part two. Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Administrative support from Nola Carmuch.