Nobody Should Believe Me - Introducing: PRETEND: Chain of Command Part 1

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

In 1996, Sarah DeJonghe was a 20-year-old Navy Seabee stationed in Okinawa, Japan. Two guys in uniform approached her on base and invited her to church. She said no. They came back anyway. Four months later, Sarah was out of the Navy and on her way to a Bible seminary in Washington State. She didn't see it coming. Neither did the dozens of other military members who found themselves drawn into the New Testament Christian Churches of America, a church that has spent decades planting itself outside US military bases around the world, marketing itself as a home away from home for single, lonely soldiers. Former members say it's a cult. *** Listen to PRETEND now: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chain-of-command-part-1/id1245307962 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea and I have a very special treat today from my friend Javier Lava, the host of Pretend. I know that many of you already know Pretend, but if you don't, it's an investigative true crime podcast about con artists and people pretending to be someone else. Javier's new series is called Chain of Command. It's about two churches that have spent decades specifically targeting members of the U.S. military. Former members describe textbook cult tactics, financial exploitation, and a structure that makes it nearly impossible to leave. And the story only gets darker from there in ways that I think you'll find very familiar. We will be right back with episode one of Chain of Command from Pretent.

Insurance isn't one-size-fits-all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed progressives name-your-price tool for years. With the Name Your Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget. Enough hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises.

Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit Progressive.com and give the name your price tool. a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Cult leaders. Every cult book in America that's ever been written by real Christians has a list. J.W's Mormons, Seventh-day Adventism. Shall we go on? This is the voice of Michael Keckle, the CEO and the head pastor of the New Testament Christian Church of America. I know. It's a mouthful. So we'll just call them NTCC for short.

All of them are listed because the doctrines are erroneous. And some of them promote worship of a person over the worship of Jesus Christ. Those are the people who are all about themselves. Worship me, I have great knowledge. Look to me. I have a special revelation. Look to me. I have a special revelation. Look to me. A moron showed me the golden plates. These clips were pulled from the church's live stream page, and I got to say, your preacher shouldn't work this hard to convince you that he's not a cult leader. So why is Michael Keckle saying all this? After all, this isn't your typical sermon. It's textbook cult stuff, according to former members. Mind control, total isolation, financial control, check, check,

But what makes this alleged cult different is who they're recruiting, members of the U.S. military. In fact, they brand themselves the ministry to the military. NTCC churches are strategically located near U.S. military bases, especially bases located overseas. Their sales pitch is that they are a home away from home, a safe and welcoming space for single, lonely American soldiers. There are more than 100 NTCC churches worldwide. And if you believe Wikipedia, the New Testament Christian Churches of America, NTCC, has about 10,000 members. But former members believe that those numbers are inflated. They think that the real number might be closer to 3,000 to 5,000 members globally.

NTCC operates more like a family-owned business than a church. Michael Keckle inherited the whole thing from a district. founder, his father-in-law, Roger W. Davis, who died in 2014. By keeping leadership in the family, the succession guarantees continuity of power and money. A church leader even joked about it in one of the sermons. I'm the chairman of the board, and I'm the pastor of the organization. That's it. Pastor Kerko is a CEO. There's no other CEO in this organization. and it's CEO. I think that's chief executive officer.

Is that right? But he's not only that. Now, he's a lot of other things too. But he's a CEO and he's the precedent. He's the president of the corporation organization. There's a lot of authority invested in the CEO and the president of New Testament Christian churches of America Incorporated. But if you have a proud of...

with the president and the CEO of this organization, he is not leaving. Today, we're starting a new series called Chain of Command. Two churches, both targeting the military. And this isn't just a story about control and cult-like behavior. It's about the money they're pooling from their own members and from the U.S. government. I'm Javier Leva, and this is pretend. Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. I was presenting at a conference recently where I got to meet a bunch of lovely listeners,

and one of them was so excited to let me know that she was wearing some very cute, very comfy linen pants from quince. I really do love this brand. I wear it all the time. My team loves quince. My listeners love quince. Quince has expanded their offerings so much, and I love going on there to see what's new. I am currently awaiting my latest purchases. I got an Italian leather cross-body case for my iPhone in Emerald Green. I also really needed a transitional jacket for spring, which in Seattle can go well into July, so I ordered myself the water repellent windbreaker jacket in Moonstone Blue. You know the deal. Quince gives you luxury without the exorbitant price tag by working directly with safe ethical factories and cutting out the middleman. No matter what you're

looking for, clothes, shoes, handbags, luggage, home goods, quince will have a luxury version of it at a killer price. So refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash believe. A reminder that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show. And if you run into me out in the wild, we can bond over the fact that we're both wearing quints. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples Preferred, get free delivery, no minimums.

Staples Preferred unlocks up to 3% back, plus 10% savings on print and exclusive wireless offers. One less thing on your plate. Actually, a lot less. Visit staples.ca.comfired. That was easy. Why the military? Why would they target military members? One, they're very used to taking orders and to following authority. And number two, they come with a steady paycheck. Meet Sarah DeYoung.

I joined the Navy when I was 18 years old. When most people picture the Navy, they think ships, submarines, aircraft carriers. But the C-Bs are a different animal altogether. They almost never go out to sea. They are a construction battalion of the Navy. They build roads, bridges, airfields, often where people are actively trying to kill you. In 1996, Sarah left her hometown in Massachusetts with no idea where she'd end up and what she'd be doing. I got sent to Okinawa, Japan.

Being deployed overseas is a lot like going to college. You're finally free, out of your parents' house, in a strange new country. except instead of a dorm, you're in a military base in Japan. Of course, you're going to let loose. We partied pretty hard. It was a group of like construction men, so you can imagine, you know. And I was three months into my deployment. It was Christmas night, and I was doing my laundry,

and these two guys approached me on base, and they invited me out to church that night. So, you know, here I am halfway around the world. I am 20 years old. I'm far away from my family. It's holidays. I don't really go to church. I'm not really religious. But it seemed like a nice thing to do.

But I still said no. So who are these guys? Other military personnel? They're other military personnel, yes. Did you know them? No. No. What this is called, they've coined it as soul winning.

Soul winning. If you ever had a Jehovah's Witness knock on your door, you already have a rough idea, except these guys aren't going door to door in your neighborhood. They're hovering around U.S. military bases. Members are specifically sent out wherever young service military members are. Post exchanges, on-base housing, barracks. It's brilliant, if you ask me, because they send their own military members out in uniform to recruit fellow soldiers.

A soldier in uniform approaching another soldier. It's not a stranger. It's one of their own, right? They would send them out two by two onto all of the bases and posts around Okinawa and anywhere they have a serviceman's home. There was like two young guys, like my age, inviting me out to a church service.

And it's, like I said, it seemed like a nice thing to do. I was... But you said no. I said no, because I was just, it was kind of weird, you know? like I was expected to get in a van with them and go off to church. Like right now?

Right then on the spot. Yes. Really? Mm-hmm. So I didn't go. But I said, sure, maybe I'll go sometime, you know. I did not know how seriously they take a some time. So they came back the following Sunday morning when I said I would probably be willing

to go and I didn't answer my door. And then they came back that night. And that time I went. And were they creepy or were they like, no, no? Like really friendly. Like, okay. Now they show up at your house. Yeah.

Or your barracks. Yeah. So I went. Sunday night. I got in their van. All right. Oh, my God. I don't know what that's terrible.

I was thinking about it. So I got in their van. And they took me off post to this church service out in town in Okinawa. I was raised Catholic. So this completely new to me. You know, it was definitely not a Catholic church service and very much fire and brimstone. At the end of the service, this woman who was sitting next to me, she turned to me with the sweetest and kindest, you know, offer and voice. And she just said, you know, would you like me to pray with you?

And I was like, sure, you know, and so I did. Oh, that made everyone so happy. and they invited me immediately back the next day to the serviceman's home for dinner, for a home-cooked dinner and fellowship. And that right there is where I should have said no, because that's where they get you. That's just one red flag. That's not to say any time somebody's friendly, you should avoid them. But yeah, I could see how this progresses, right?

They love you. Yes. Oh, they, like, that's one thing I can say I felt like I just felt so embraced by them. And so, yeah, I said, I'll come tomorrow. I'll come to that. Okay. And I didn't have a car because we were on deployment, so we didn't have cars over there. And so they sent a couple to come pick me up.

Four months. That's all it took. December to April. Sarah went back to California with her battalion, spent the rest of the year getting out of the Navy. And by December 1997, she was headed to NTCC's Bible Seminary in Washington State. That's where the organization is. headquartered, by the way.

So I got there and I started their school, which was not really a school. It was so stupid. It was like you go to class, you pay money, of course. Everything was in cash, cash only. Everything's mandatory. Cannot be late for anything. Your name will be written down. You'll lose your semester.

You'll lose your money. You know, everything's so regimented. And there's rules for everything. You can't. Who were the students? Who were the students at this school? All military mostly. All ex-military.

So like new recruits, basically? Definitely. Yep. And it still is. And you had to pay money to go to the school. To go there, to live there. None of the teachers had any credentials. Your job as a student was literally just to write down everything they said.

And then you go home and you typed out your notes on a typewriter and brought them back. And that was it. Permission was needed for everything. Even to call someone on the phone. You couldn't have anyone over your house or fellowship with anyone. Can you reach out to family? They have this saying. Yes, you can reach out to them.

And they want you to reach out enough that the family doesn't start calling the office. But they will also, they will say, you can never go home again. Just remember that. You can never go home again. Like, it's not the same. They're not your real family. But they're my friends. And avoid them.

When somebody starts fighting the church that you attend, the church that you believe in, the church that you're following, the ministry that you're following. When they start fighting that, he said, mark them and avoid them. Are you buying into this? Or do you still think this is weird? I felt like, this is going to make me sound so...

I don't want to use the word stupid because I understand how I fell into it. But I really believed, like, this is what I've been missing my whole life. Like, when I felt happy, I felt accepted. I felt like this is such a clean, good way to live. This is what I should have been doing all along.

You know, it's, it really felt real. I stopped smoking. I stopped drinking. It was like an immediate change in my life. It felt real. And those are all positive things, right? Right, yeah. But it's a perfect cult if you think about it, right?

How unique is that, that somebody has to get, is deployed somewhere or station somewhere. They're away from their friends. They're away from their family. Like you said, they respect authority. They have income. And like, it's just check, check, check, check. And these people are often young. They're at this point in their life where they're trying to figure out who they are.

I mean, that's the age. When you're trying to piece together who you are and they come to you and you're like, here's this identity. This is who you are. Just like I said, like I felt like, oh my gosh, this is who I am. I was supposed to be. When we come back from the break, we're going to hear from another service member who was stationed on the other side of the country in North Carolina,

and his experience is eerily familiar. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and Game Sense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531. 2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGEM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. Before we go any further, a quick thing about the name NTCC. If you're in the UK, Jamaica, or the Caribbean, you probably heard the name New Testament Church of God, and that's a completely different church. That's a Pentecostal denomination with over 7 million members worldwide.

So no connection to NTCC whatsoever. Don't get me wrong. and TCC is still a pretty large religious sect. It has churches from the Philippines to Jamaica. So how does one man, Michael Keckle, keep control over all of his congregation? I'm not just going to be a half-bake, hippo-christian. I want the real thing. I want the whole enchilada.

Amen. Everything. You can hear the passion Pastor Keckle radiates. I want to call it for what it is. pray it through. So what rules do NTCC members have to follow? If you want to understand how this organization really works, forget the sermons, read the bylaws because it's posted on their website.

The General Board currently led by Michael Keckle is the final authority on scripture, doctrine, and theology. Stay away from all those immoral idiots who do nothing but influence you for the bad and get around friends that are positive, moving forward, successful, doing good things. Get around the right people. Get the right God. And that's the thing I said to God when I got to say, Lord, I don't want something, phony. I don't want to give my life to something that's not real.

And I've found something real. And lawsuits between believers? Well, that's prohibited. Because if you're defrauded, abused, wrong, then anyway, you can't. go to court. You have to go to the board. The same board that has the final say over your employment, your credentials, your discipline. The people who may have harmed you may also be your judges. All property is held in the name of the organization, not the congregation. So if you're tithing for years, if your church built a building with your money, none of that belongs to you or

your community. It belongs to them. And your pastor doesn't answer to you either. He's appointed by the executive board. Kekyll's position as chairman has no term limits. It ends when he decides it ends, or when he dies. Nothing in the organization passes without his final approval. And your membership, well, that's contingent on your agreement with their doctrine, right? Because the moment you express any doubt, you technically have breached the conditions of your membership, which also means that you can be removed from church-managed housing. Which means you can lose the place where you sleep. Read all that together and you don't have a church.

You have a corporation where the members fund everything, own nothing, and can be removed the moment they stop complying. Go ahead and tell us about who you are and why you're here. Hey, my name is Andrew. I attended NTCC from 2004 by around, I was like 2014, I was like 2014, about 10 years like This is former Marine Andrew Shelton talking with Tracy Pelfrey on her YouTube channel called Stay Away from NTCC. I was actually in the Marine Corps. I was just fresh out of high school. It was April of 2004 when I came in to the fleet.

I was just young and single and got naive at that time, you know. And then one Sunday I woke up from my barracks and decided I want to go to church, you know, it was just, it was the moral thing to do. you know, that's how I was raised up. So there was a chapel just right in the corner. I didn't have a car then. So I got up, grabbed my Bible, got dressed, went out the door, walked down the street, around the corner. It wasn't too far.

And then as soon as it went down the corner, a car came up. And it was a man. His name was Marvin. And he was a real nice person. And he said, you want to invite me out to NTCC, which he gave me the card. And I looked down, and I thought to myself, I said, I had never had somebody about me out to church. because I grew up in church.

And I, like I said, I'd never had somebody come up and say, I want to buy church to church. It was kind of like a shocker to me. So I grabbed the card. I said, well, I'm going to the chapter down the street. I may come next week. He says, my phone number was on the car. Just give me a call. But the next Sunday, I called him up because I was a little curious about it.

So I called them up. I said, I want to go to church where I was off base. He came and brought me to NTCC. It was a real small church outside of Camp of June. Andrew attended NTCC for a few months, but soon after that, he deployed to the Middle East. The U.S. was one year into the war with Iraq. During the time I was in Iraq, I got hit by an IAD, I lost two Marines. They died in my family from me, and I almost lost my life too.

So I kind of woke me up. After his deployment, Andrew returned to N2CC. He said he made a genuine connection with one of the pastors at Camp Lejeune Church. I like Pastor Jason. I learned a lot from him. Pastor Jason asked me, he said, he told me about it before, and then he kind of like, he didn't say he bugged me, but he was kind of like, we have a home here,

and he said, he kind of explained it to me. He says, you know, we're welcome to come. You know, it was just really one forceful. Pastor Jason was offering Andrew to stay at what NTCC calls a serviceman's home. These true missionaries to the servicemen, to GIs, and we have a serviceman's home there. That's the voice of Roger Davis, the original founder of NTCC. A serviceman's home is NTC's recruitment center established just outside of military bases. These homes are specifically designed to recruit young, active-duty military personnel.

Former members tell me that recruiters lure service. service members to these locations by offering a hot home-cooked meal and Bible fellowship. Once there, the recruits say that they are subjected to intense love bombing. The most dedicated recruits claim that they are pressured to move into the serviceman's home to live with a pastor and his wife. They are then expected to pay rent, which is only about $150 a month. Did you have to get it cleared with the base, the military, to be able to go live there? No, no, not really. I know when I started living there, there was a lot of questions I rose up about me living there. I know one of my staff and CEOs came down. He had kind of like talked to me about me living downtown. And then he said that he was a little bit concerned of what I was doing. He knew of a Marine one time that did somebody similar. Now, I don't know it was in TCC, but he said that, he said, had a church at one time take all his money away. And it really messed up his, uh,

answers and they just kind of told me it's like this scary story about a GI long time ago that dealt with a church one time. That guy, he was on it. I mean, it sounds like he cared about you and he saw the red flags before you did, maybe. Andrew was too busy to see that NTCC had taken over his life. Our schedule in Jackson, North Carolina, dinner was on Monday. And then Tuesday, I believe was soul winning, and then Wednesday was church service at night. Then Friday was a Bible study. Then Saturday night was a church service. Then, of course, Sunday morning and Sunday night. So that was our schedule. Let's get back to Sarah DeYoung, who we heard from earlier. She told me another red flag happened when he came to dating. There was no dating. There was no, well, there was a courtship process. But, um.

which I went through. Can we go into it? Yes. Sure. You absolutely can. So, you know, there's no dating, but so far it sounds like a lot of control, which is now another red flag. Yes. If you're in a cult, because they control your daily life, you know, they control where you live, right?

Where you live, where you express. But now you're saying they also control who you date or who you are. Who you can even talk to. Right. So tell me about that. If you were single, you weren't allowed to talk to anybody else unless it was after a Sunday night church service. And it was in the fellowship hall. And all the men sat at one table.

All the women sat at another long table. If a man wanted to talk to a female, if he was interested in her, he would approach the head pastor, Roger Davis. And he would say, sir, everybody called him, sir. could I please have permission to talk to sister so-and-so? And you had to do this in front of everybody. And so if permission was granted, then that guy would approach the woman's table and say, Sister, so-and-so, would you like to talk on the wall? That's what it was called talking on the wall.

Is this in front of the other person or is this in private? This is in front of everybody. Oh, my God. How embarrassing. Yes, absolutely. Now you painted this picture. You're in front of this large congregation, right? And you want to talk with somebody.

It's usually the guy that makes the first move, I'm guessing. So the guy says, I want to, what was it that you said? Talk on the wall. Would you like to talk on the wall? I want to talk on the wall with Sarah or whatever. Like, how, then what happens? So if I agree, I stand up from the women's table. And you can imagine how awful that would be walking up to a table full of all women who are like,

like, you know it. And then you've got to get up. But this sounds like a like a net and Netflix like love is blind or type of like what happens You say no or whatever It's horrible like sometimes I said yes just because I didn't have the heart to say no Like how awful is that you know? They sometimes like slink out of there if a woman said no I'm cringing just thinking about it okay so so he says I want to I want to get on the wall

Is that wasn't we talk on the wall? Talk on the wall so along the wall, it was just a little desk set up, you know, so you would sit in one and he would sit in the other and you would just talk for however long the fellowship lasted. And when the head guy Davis said, he would always say, good night, folks. That was it. That was your warning. And you just got up and you left. And that was it till the next time. So I did that. And I got married to a stranger virtually. We had a stranger virtually. We had a probably spoken maybe 10 to 12 times in a year ever. There was no phone calls. There was no email.

There was no dating. There was nothing. We had never even held hands. We had never been alone together. And we got married in December 1999. You were attracted to him? Were you excited about it at the time? I could tell you 100%.

He's not my type. He never was. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, belabor this part because I know that it's personal to you, and you rather would talk about the cult in general. But, but I mean, what did he talk to you about? Like, when you were on the standing on the wall? You talk about marriage and the ministry.

Like, what, like, that's really your whole role as a female is to be a pastor's wife. And so you talk about, like, what his calling is for God. Like, is he going to be a pastor or a serviceman's home director? Because serviceman's home directors, the pastor of like the military churches. We talked for rather a long time, 10 to 12 times over like a 10-month period was pretty long.

I knew people that got married after just like a few weeks. So, you know, I'm sure I asked him about his family and things like that too. But you really don't know each other. Anybody can put on a mask for an hour. Yeah, I mean, you don't know somebody, you know, like that. But so, so now you're, in this marriage, and once you're in a marriage, can you talk freely?

Yes. Yeah. Okay. So that's when you really get to know each other, right? How long did that relationship lost? Oh, my gosh. Well, we divorced in 2019. And leaving that marriage was like leaving the cult all over again.

By the way, Sarah was not the only one. Andrew also claims course of control when it came. came to his love life. Right before his second deployment, he met a girl outside of the church. She started attending NTCC right around the same time he was sent back out to war. I got deployed, but before I went,

I told her just write me a letter, kind of keep in touch with her. Six months later, when he returned, the girl that he thought he was dating had moved on. Did she write to you? Oh, she never wrote to me. That's the thing. I started to go back when she never wrote me.

I know why because what happened was Reverend Gandhi actually hooked them up. And he's done that before. And of time's past, he's known to do that to hook people up. And the thing is, he waited for me to go on a permit. He waited for me to go out. And then when I came back, I thought it was kind of odd that they were just together so close. That's the thing about NTCC is like they will hook people up that they see fit to their eyes. To their eyes.

To their eyes. They think, well, this person. should be with this person, this man should be with this woman, this woman should be with this man. Even though they were never meant for each other, they would make the decision for them. There was one couple that the husband left the church. He left their organization. But the wife wanted to stay. This woman, she had two daughters.

She was a single mom after she divorced. Andrew says that the pastor had other plans. He had in his mind, well, let me hook up Andrew with this woman, with two. little daughters. And he never asked me, do you want to be with this woman? He never asked me, hey, do you like her? He never, and he never, actually, I think nobody really knew that what she went through a divorce to later on. But she was first off her divorce. And then he decided he wanted to hook us up. Like I said, he never bothered to ask me if I wanted to be with her. I was tried to avoid her. I didn't want to be with a woman with kids. I was trying to fight. I would try to

fight this situation. The thing is, the situation got worse. He kept pushing on her army, trying to, try like, you know, maybe if she can bother me, I will cave in and, you know, start dating her.

But the fact that the weird thing is that I knew who the husband was. He was a nice person and also it was weird. That had to be weird. Well, I wouldn't want to date a woman with two daughters that I knew who the husband was.

We fellowship with each other. We sold one together. I know I sold one with them a couple of times. We had barbecue grills together, you know, this and that. And all of a sudden, he leaves, okay, there's his two dollars you can raise up. I did not like that. Yeah. He really was, made it to the goal that he would, that he was going to hook his out no matter what.

In church, I'll be in one situation, one place. and she will walk over to me, but then look at me, but then I'll walk away and then she'll get closer, you know, and things like that. Like I'll go to one corner of the church, like kind of get away from her. Then she'll kind of discreetly follow me there. Sometimes I would drive down the road, and she would be in a parking lot waiting for me to drop by, then she will come out, drive up behind me.

And she's done that a couple times. Me and my friend went to Walmart, and as I turned around, And there she was. Oh, no. I knew that one, it's like, I knew that Gandy told her where I was going to be. It was very just obvious. By the way, Gandhi was one of the pastors. I came out and I said, hey, sister, I want to talk to you very quick and this and that.

And I talked to her in the parking line. I said, just in case you think I, you know, was interested in you and this and that, I can't remember exactly what I said. But I said, what to let you know, I'm. not really interested in you. I never will be. But she cried to the pastor, and he brought me in office, and he chewed me out, and he said, I don't like you attacking my church members. So you may be wondering, how exactly do you leave a church when you're under so much control? Here's Sarah DeYoung again.

I left that group in 2002. When I told him I wanted to leave, which I fully expected him to stay. He had never told me he wanted to leave. I thought he was going to go tell on me because that's what spouses usually do. And then they remarry. But he said, no, I want to leave too. And so we left. That's interesting. And let's talk about that because usually another aspect of cult is that they make it very hard for you to leave.

Can you just pick up and go? You're in a prison, but it's for your mind. Yes, you can walk out the door. And they would say that all the time. Nobody's keeping you here. There's the door. Go if you don't want to be here. But it's literally your whole life.

You don't, you've let go of all your old friends. You really don't see your family. A lot of people are living there on the church's property. And then there's the fact that you truly believe if you leave, you're going to hell. They drill it into your head. It's something every single day, church services, soul winning, prayer meetings, classes, you know, special classes. It's nonstop.

It's nonstop indoctrination. And then once you leave, I would imagine that this community of people that you built, right? These are probably the only people you correspond with in the last few years. Now they're out, right? You can't. They shunned. Yeah. You're shunned, right?

100%. Yeah. And so now that's another thing that keeps people from leaving is because once you're out, you're out and you're alone, right? You lost everything. After we did this interview, Sarah told me that it's a stretch to say that she was forced to marry him. It was more like high-pressure tactics on the young women to get married ASAP. When you're in a religious sect, especially one the size of NTCC, you have a hard time seeing the forest from the trees.

At first, you think, oh, it's just my church that's the problem. Back to Virginia. then I realized one just candy was the whole organization. We all come to that realization. This woman, the hookups, the controlling, and all the just badgering, just this manipulation. It just drained me. It drained my spiritual life too. We talked about the way that the church controlled their lives.

Next time, we're going to talk about how they control their wallets. Will I pay my tithe? Well, wonderful. The tithe. to the preacher. When you don't pay your part, you stole it from him. That's next time on Pretend. So now I have a question for you.

I have never served in the military, so I had never heard of NTCC, but I was wondering, have people who served in the military? Have they heard of NTCC? I know for sure that some of my listeners are former military or current military members. Have you heard of NTCC? I would love to know if you did or if you have not. Send me an email at Javier at pretendradio.org, a voice memo, whatever. Or drop me a comment on social media to let me know what your thoughts are on this episode and this church.

I also want to point out that I reached out to church leadership, Michael Keckle himself, and I have yet to hear back from that. If you want to hear early episodes of this series, I'm releasing them early on Pretent Plus on Apple Podcasts and on Patreon. Not only are you getting early ad-free episodes, but you're also helping out this little old podcast, which, by the way, went from a hobby to a job. And unlike most jobs, which have steady paychecks,

sometimes income goes up when you have like a hit series like the stocker or Lodana, and then sometimes your revenue goes down. But if you enjoy what I'm doing and you want to support the show, I really highly recommend. And if you can, right, if you can support the show, in this economy, throw three bucks. That's like a cup of coffee a month, and it really goes a long way, because I honestly have had a hard time. I had to stop paying my producer, I had to stop paying my

editor for a long time, and, you know, it's tough. So if you can help out, that's awesome. If you can't at least leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it's a good way to send a signal to the platform that lets them know that people are enjoying the show and they're more likely to recommend it to somebody else. Another way that you could help the show that does not involve money at all is to pick up your phone and text a friend. If you enjoyed this episode, text a friend and say, hey, this podcast is awesome. Check it out. That goes a long way. But I do have some good news. I was burning on both ends, writing and editing episodes, and it's been slowing me down. So I finally bit the bullet and brought Punez Sinoi back from the podcast pundits.

And he helped me edit this episode. So shout out to Punez for helping me out. That's all I got for this week. Please let me know if you're enjoying the show. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of Part 2 of Chain of Commands. Talk to you soon. That was episode one of Chain of Command from Pretend. There is so much more to come.

So go follow along by subscribing to pretend wherever you get your podcast. guess.