Nobody Should Believe Me - Love Trapped with Mishelle and Chalice

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Andrea is joined by two fan favorites, Chalice Howard and Mishelle Roberts. They catch up on life, reflect on how their friendships began through Nobody Should Believe Me, and share stories from their "Unhinged Memoir Book Club" group chat. They also discuss their recent listen of Love Trapped, a podcast about the years-long campaign of deception and false pregnancy claims surrounding former Bachelor lead Clayton Echard.  Subscribe on Patreon or Apple Podcasts for Part Two, where they discuss the books that have taken over their group chat! *** Listen to Love Trapped: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-trapped/id1878220033 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I have such a treat for you today. Two of my favorite past guests, Michelle Roberts from season six and Chalice Howard from season five, are here with me today together with some updates on their lives and a special report from our group chat, which we have nicknamed the unhinged memoir book club. Because we started this chat with a discussion about Lindy West's recent memoir adult braces. If you would like to hear that conversation, you can join our Patreon or subscribe on Apple podcast. But in today's episode, we are discussing the podcast Love Trapped, which all three of us

listened to together. And I just thought, this group chat needs to go on the main feed. So here we are. For those who have not tuned in yet, Love Trapped is a new series from Glass Media, the folks who make betrayal, all about the saga of Laura Owens, who became notorious for claiming she'd become pregnant by Bachelor star Clayton Eckhart. The series is excellent, and if you are a fan of this show, I know you will love it. We actually have a double episode for you this week, as tomorrow I will be airing my conversation with Stephanie Young, the host of Love Trapped. So stay tuned for that. And again, if you want more of my conversation with Michelle and Chalice, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts or Patreon to listen to Part 2 of this chat. You get two bonus episodes every month on that feed,

as well as ad-free listening and are very popular binge drops whenever a new season releases. Nobody Should Believe Me is a 100% listener-supported show, so we are so grateful to our subscribers and to all of you who tune in each week. We will be right back with Michelle and Chalice. With, I would say, easily, two of the all-time favorite guests from Nobody Should Believe Me. We've got Chalice Howard. Chalice, can you say hi? Hello.

and Michelle Roberts. Hi, Michelle. Hi. And you may be wondering, what are the three of you doing here in an episode together? And this came about because we have a group chat together. And I thought that we should bring some of those unhinged conversations that really usually have less to do with serious issues like child abuse and more to do with just other things. So here we are. Thank you guys for doing this with me. Totally. Thanks for inviting us. I'm so excited to like see your faces. This is very fun. So this is the first time we have been on a call together. I wish we were doing it in person. But let's just start with before we dive into all the many things that we're going to talk about today. This is really going to be an arts and culture hour. And, uh,

to bring our group chat to life. But before we get into that, I know people who do not get to be at a group chat with the two of you will be very anxious for a little life update. So let's start with you, Chalice. You are season five surprise heroin. So can you explain for those who may not know or need a refresher exactly how you came to be a member of the Nobody Should Believe Me, extended universe. Yeah. On season five was in production, I got a wind of that and found out that season five would be about my former friend. It's a weird thing to say. Former friend Sophie Hartman. And so, yeah, I was really compelled by the podcast. I binged it all very quickly and got in touch with Andrea. But yeah, I was someone who was shocked to find out that a friend of mine ended up being a

perpetrator and now I'm on the other side of it and just doing whatever I can in my little corner of the world to raise awareness. And we got to see each other last fall. That was really fun. That was really special. But I will say like one of my favorite things about making this show is that sometimes you just meet really cool people and you get to stay in touch with those cool people. And Chalas, we have had so many amazing conversations over the last couple of years since you first got in touch now. It's been like almost two years. Just about all of these sort of related things and would you call yourself a recovering evangelical? What's your preferred terminology with that?

Ex-Vangelical, right? And so we've had so many amazing conversations about just like religion and how that plays into some of these things, especially with Sophie's case. And I just feel like those have really helped me understand so much context around not just that case, but like, around what these sort of religious things that frequently get invoked in these cases. And so I'm just so grateful for to be able to have had those conversations and to just have been able to have you as a friend, as unlikely as us meeting was. You went from someone. I was like, I should probably touch base with this person and give my two cents to like, wait, we have so many. shared values and we laugh at the same thing.

Indeed. And then Michelle, so everyone on the show obviously knows you from season six and the queen. Oh, no. Yeah, the unequivocal hero of season six, no question. For those who may not know your story, which I don't know if that would be anybody who's going to be listening to this, but just in case, if you want to tell us briefly how you came to be on the show. And we'd love an update on how you're doing because you've had also a lot of changes in your life since you were lost on the feet.

Yeah, that's true. So if you don't know me, I'm just a normal gal from a normal. No, I'm just kidding. My life I think is anything but normal. I first met Andrea in, I think, the first ever much-housand support group. And that was really just really eye-opening. And we connected from there and just kind of developed, you know, a friendship. And, you know, we started talking, I think, even back then, several years ago now, about how would I feel about going on her podcast. Before there was a podcast. Yeah, before the podcast really, like before the podcast really existed and especially in this form. And just kind of something that we just kind of talked back and forth about for a while before it kind of came to fruition. Yeah, just talking about what I went through as a child, what I went, what my siblings went through as children.

Yeah. So here I am. It's been a, been a wild ride these past few years, but I'm glad to be where I'm at now. Yeah. And what has it been like for you? I know you have been presenting at conferences. You're presenting at one coming up here in a couple weeks. And what has that been like for you, especially after the show aired? Have you been meeting some folks that have listened to your season? Yeah. You know, it's crazy because I think. since the show aired. Really, I started like right as we were recording, I think, when I like went to that first conference last year and just like kind of did a little little five minute like you asked

me questions sort of panel vibe. And then that's kind of like, yeah, just branched out. And I've met some incredible people. I got the opportunity to go to New Orleans and presented Grand Rounds down there, which was amazing. I'm going to Absat. Yeah, in just a couple weeks presented last year at the same conference and then spoilers. It's supposed to be going to an international conference in August. Super pumped about that. It's really incredible. I don't know when this will come out, but I'm assuming that when it does, I will have also accepted, or I have accepted, haven't started yet a new job with CASA. And that's something that I really never dreamed of even doing. And can you tell people what the CASA program is for anybody who doesn't know?

Yeah, of course. So that's court-appointed special advocate. It's mainly made up of a bunch of volunteers are like the core of that. And they go in and are appointed to go help children and advocate for children. Does it always have to be an abusive household? There are a lot of different things, you know, from sometimes really nasty custody cases where the children just need somebody to show up for them and kind of be the person in between two parents that are arguing about them and just showing up for kids. And so I'll be kind of over some of the volunteers giving support to the volunteers that I'll have, you know, a case or two of my own. It's wild that all of this has happened over the course. I mean, I guess looking back on it, it's been several years now that

I've been kind of doing this work. Like it started, I think, even pre that first support group, like it started with me reaching out to be and has slowly built from there. But it feels like it's only been like, gosh, a year and a half or so. This has become something and helping other people and advocating for children has become something I realized I can do in so many different forms in so many different ways. I'm really excited about it. I'm really grateful, really thankful to you guys, especially for you, Andrea, for kind of opening this door for me, and I busted through it. You sure did. And I'm equally grateful to you for being on this whole journey with me, because like we said, this was the conversations that we had about your story.

I mean, those were right around the beginning of my child's support. And that was while I was working on the first season of the podcast. So it was like, you know, it was my passion project that I was just making and had no idea that this was going to be heading for this kind of a career pivot. And so it's been really so wonderful for me to have your support and friendship throughout all of this because there's been a lot of wild twists and turns. And on that note, it was funny because I was trying to think of like, I was like, well, I know Michelle and Chalice must have met through me, I was like, but I don't, I just remember that one day you guys were friends already and you were talking to each other. So I'm not actually totally sure how that happened.

So the way I remember it, I remember listening to, and of course, like, I knew behind the scenes because Andrea and I were like friends. And so I kind of knew behind the scenes, like, who Chalice was, but had no idea who she was, if that makes sense. Like, I knew about and I knew there was like a background source is pretty much all I knew. And, And so I remember listening to Chalice that episode that you did with Andrea. And I was riding in my car and I just boohooed the whole entire time. Of course I did. But it was just so impactful for me because at that point where I was in processing everything with my mom, it was really like hard for me to hear people talk about her and not have any empathy for her. And that's just where I was. And so to hear Chalice explain like to hear you like explain all these things and still hold such. empathy for Sophie and to still like have this like softness to you and not be like bitter and like hateful you know like you weren't saying hateful things about her like that was your friend man it just gripped me in a lot of like deep ways that I really needed at the time um and I remember texting

and being like so do you think you could like connect me in chalice or like I think I pass a message along first I think I like sent Andrea text and I was just like just like listen to her episode like can you please just let her know how impactful this was. Yeah, Chalice, what was that? Like, what was your memory of that on your, on your end? And like hearing, also similarly, like, hearing Michelle's season for the first time. Well, it's so funny because still, I just, I feel like these stories of families who have been so deeply impacted by this kind of abuse, it has the power to just, like, disrupt and

tangle a family in such terrifying and sad ways. And so I've been hearing these stories, but I feel very much like on the outside. And so I was really close with Sophie, but I think it surprised me that people were impacted by like, I'm just like a friend on the outside. And so you had said like, hey, Michelle sent me a voice note and I have permission to forward it to you. And I was like, what? Michelle wants to talk to me? Michelle wants to be my friend. And yeah, I think at that point, I was just so, it's such a disorienting experience to come to terms with having been deceived. And so most people in your circle can't relate to that. It sounds like something they hear on a podcast and they're like, oh, that sounds crazy. And also,

it's like, unless you've been in it, it's hard to be like, wait, how did you go for that for so long, you know? For me, it was such like a comforting experience to be like in my friendship with Michelle to be so listened to and cared for and to have like even in our, like, this is the daughter of a perpetrator, this is a friend of a perpetrator, to still find so much common ground just around our passion for both exposing but also caring about the deeper nuance. of what it looks like to move forward after you find something out like this. So, yeah, that was really fun to be able to connect with you. And then surprisingly, like with Andrea, I was like, wait, we don't just have similar stories.

You're cool. I like you. You're funny. It's a real vibe. And I think even though your stories and your vantage points are different, I think they resonated with people for similar reasons. And I think, like, one of the things that I saw is so much. much listener response to the two of you was just both your compassion for the offenders, right,

for the people involved and also just your courage and like your clear-eyedness in seeing what was happening to the children and really prioritizing that. And again, yeah, like not out of anger, not out of revenge. And I think that's just something that has really, I know it's something that really resonated with me and I know that's something that really resonated with everyone. And I genuinely have in the last year met so many people was I've been like presenting to. at medical conferences and stuff like that, who listened to the show and really talk about how it really helps them deal with the difficult parts of their job. And that means so much to me. And I think it is hearing from people like you guys and just remembering that like, you know,

it is such an isolating experience when you're going through it. And then I think to just like be able to, yeah, like reach out and connect with other people. And it's also very, very strange life experience to have gone through. And it's like very helpful in healing to like talk to other people that have the short hand already where you don't have to be like, well, here's this weird thing that happened. And it's going to make you really upset and like you're going to fall out of your chair and like that I'm going to have to deal with your emotional reaction. And I'm not really like feeling up for that. You know, so it's just, it's just good to be like. And even to be able to make jokes about it. I mean, I think like, like, Gallagher's humor. It's so needed.

I listen to a lot of different true crime podcasts. But I especially like stories of like, I'm interested in stories around cults and how people get out. How do you get out from or something that's so pervasive and so heavy. And so in a way, it feels like we were part of the same cult because it's like, how did you get on the other side of that? There's so much you don't have to explain. And it's so weird to like be able to reference something. And Michelle knows exactly what I'm talking about and same thing with you.

It's like I, you know, recently met someone who was going through a very similar experience to Chalas. And she was beginning that experience well. I was talking to her and saying, oh, well, you know, I've, I know someone who is falsely accused of this. And I was like, uh-huh. And, you know, maybe, right? And like, what I always tell people is like, listen, if you find a false accusation of my proxy that is legitimately a false allegation of my proxy, tell me. Like, I want to know what that actually looks like. Because of course it's happened, right? Of course it's happened. And there's like one case in the literature.

And then there's one case I know of anecdotally, but it's like, I'm like, if somebody actually has that story, come and tell me because we will be the first to like unpack it. But I'm obviously skeptical of that claim. I just could see this person in real time just being like, oh my God, oh my God. And I was so happy when I met you, Chalice, because I was like, oh, this is what I want the show to do is just help people like in their own time, on their own terms, be able to put this together and not just have to be like, you know, that there's other ways to realize this besides being confronted like in a context of a criminal investigation or something where it's very, very hard to where you're just like, because that's just a show shocking. And we've all been through that.

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So I want to talk about the Unhinged Memoir Book Club, which is the name of our group chat, because we discuss Memoirs, because we discuss Unhinged Memoirs, and sometimes just because we're being unhinged in the chat. All three are true. But we also listened together to a podcast. Excellent show. This one gets, in terms of just recommending, like, just as a listen, like, that gets a two thumbs up for me, I think especially for our audience. I think we already did a feed drop with them when the show first came out.

So this is from our friends at Glass Media. They also make betrayal and betrayal weekly. So I know this team. I really like them. They are very lovely, ethical podcasters in the true crime space. they really take a lot of care what the people are on their show. So I always feel much better about listening to something where people are recounting their traumas when I know that the people behind the scenes are taking good care of them. So you can listen to Love Trapped and look good about

supporting Love Trapped. This for those that don't know, and it's a longer series, it's like 12 episodes and jam-packed. I'm like, they did not waste any of that time. I feel like, so this is the story of Lauren, Laura Owens, who people may be somewhat familiar with story. I kind of thought I knew this story. I had no idea how extensive the story was. So this is the woman who said after a hookup that did not involve full penetrative sex. Sorry, I do not know another way to say that. Did not involve baby making activities that she was pregnant by Bachelor Clayton Eckhart and I am not a Bachelor nation person. I have watched it occasionally episodes here and there over the years. There was like maybe one season that I followed like 20 years ago.

And then claim she was pregnant. And then it sort of kicks off from there into this whole insane story about her. So first of all, just like coming to this story, Michelle, did you know this story and are you at all a bachelor, bachelorette? I don't watch the bachelor. I don't watch the bachelor. I, when I tell you when you bring pop culture things to me, I feel like I'm living under a rock. Like, I feel like I know nothing. And I get on TikTok all the time. How do I know? know nothing. You have a very narrow niche. It's just like Taylor Swift. Yeah. And dancing. Right. Psychotic pickle videos. Pretty much. That's just. That's what she'll sell girl. That's, you know, yeah. No, and obscure like vine references. Over here in the left field, just in this

weird, weird world, you know, and I don't get any of it. And so I was, I had never, did not hear anything about the story. It had went in completely line. Like, when you said, we have to listen to this. I was like, okay, Andrew's recommended a podcast. Guess this is our new book club. moment and like went in blind. I didn't look anything up about it. I was like, is this are you? I hear some resentment from you that we did not read your Taylor Swift book. That's all I'm hearing. And it is we have to listen to this now. So I guess we're doing it. So I did not realize I was forcing it on you. I just have to be included.

Honestly, the resentment is I did not realize how much of a just like mom that doesn't get anybody's references that I am anymore. I don't. I don't. consider myself old, but I feel so old. I'm just like, I don't get any of these drivers I don't watch The Bachelor. I don't know what's going on in the real world. I still say six, seven to my kids, which apparently was a thing like last year and they, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. It's very old. Yeah. So, I mean, what keeps me young is I have, well, obviously young children, but I also have my nanny as Gen Z. And then I have Nola. So I feel like they keep me like, I'm like, they keep me hip, the truly like the oldest old person thing that could ever

be said. But also my husband is several years old. He's 47. And he has been an old man the entire time I've known him. And I think like since he was born. Like he was just born an old man. And he's just like, there was no good music made after 1995. And I'm going to be a snob about everything. And I'm just like, he would pretend he didn't know who Taylor Swift was or that he only knows about her because football. Right. Because she has a football team in my understanding. Yeah, yeah. Her boyfriend plays her boyfriend. I can tell you, I do keep up with that pop code. I feel like this is really, this conversation is very representative of what our group chat is. And just like, suddenly we're talking about Taylor Swift. Suddenly we're talking about, we're talking about something

serious and then we're talking about something decidedly unsurious. So, to hellas, what was your relationship, if any, with the bachelor, bachelor, bachelor's at bachelor's at Bachelor Nation, anything bachelor adjacent, did you know anything about Laura Owens and Clayton Eckhart before the story? No, not at all. We've, the Bachelor was broadcasted adultery, my mom used to say. Amazing. It was banned from a young age. And then I just like, used to try to watch it with friends. And I'm like, I'm bored. I'm waiting for the queer bachelor at. That I feel like is what the series needs to do. Like I think, I know I watched like a full season because I had a roommate in New York who's into it. And like we watch a full season together. And it's one of those

things where I feel like if you're watching a reality show together, it's just fun because you sort of get in like the horse race of it all, you know. It's also very fun whenever I can convince my husband to watch any reality television with me because his commentary is reliably just so funny. So you also went in totally cold. Yeah, for sure. So to sort of set the scene, and I think we can do minimum spoilers for people who who haven't watched, but I think there's almost no way to spoil this because you can sort of know the framework of what happened. And it's the details and the ups and downs and the in the moment reporting that really like get you where you're just like, oh, I did not expect that

to be the turn. And if anybody would be able to see the twists and turns of this story coming, let's be honest, it is the three of us. Because we know from ladies who be making up pregnancies. We know them kind of women. We know. And so Michelle, like, I feel like we are about as unshackable of an audience as you could find. And I was like, yeah, yeah, fake pregnancies, been there, done that, covered many of them, come back to me when it's twins.

Come back to me when it's quadruplets, like, and multiples and it happened, you know, like in a helicopter. I mean, like, yeah. And yet, I will say, like, there was some pretty jaw-dropping moments in this. So, Michelle, like, what was your experience of listening to this story? So when I first started, I'm not going to lie. I was like, eh, this is going to be like, okay, like, I'm going to listen to have something to talk about with the girls.

I don't know, because I didn't know anything about The Bachelor. I didn't really know the story at all. The first couple of episodes, I was even like, I don't, again, I don't like men. It's a bias of mine. I'm aware of it. Do I plan on changing it? Not really. But, no, I started it off wanting to hate him because that's just who I am as a person.

And I started off kind of deeply hoping on some level that maybe this was going to be like an overhyped thing I was going to be able to poke holes in. I think it's because I'm always looking for a way, like, I don't know, for like one of these stories to come out where a woman's not psychotically unhinged. Like, I need that, right? I need that after what I have lived through. I need one of these stories where a woman is not like just the worst, just the worst of the worst. And so the first couple of episodes, I was like, no, we're going to give her the benefit

of the doubt. Now that I say that, I feel absolutely. crazy because I have amazing her capacity to give people the benefit of the talent but you really do that you are like so often the voice of reason and like well we'll wait it out and see I'm like really look at where it's gotten me jealous you're like is that maturity is it travel whatever um something to work out in there you know but no I just I it was just these moments of knowing what was coming and like screaming into the universe.

Like, please, somebody stop this train wreck because you know, like, you know what's coming. I honestly, the multiple men that this had happened to, like, of course, of course, she's done this before. The fake pregnancies. Of course. Of course it was twins. Like, of course it was. Didn't take them to get there.

And I do still somehow, maybe I'm just a little silly. But some, I do have moments still where I hear, like I heard. the twins thing and I was like, oh my God, like I was surprised. And then I'm just like, oh, no, actually, that's not surprising at all. But like in the moment, I think I am able to suspend belief long enough to be slightly surprised. Okay, so Chalice, yeah, I have many follow-up questions, but Chalice, what was your, what was your experience of, were you like, maybe she's not lying? Like Michelle. Okay, listen. You're like, this seems totally normal to not have sex with someone. And then

Well, I was like maybe he's like exaggerate. Like maybe she's... Okay, so to be fair, to be fair. He is set up. So she sets him up in this sort of like, listen. Like this guy has made some mistakes in his life. Like apparently he was not, he was like hated on The Bachelor because he wouldn't make up his mind. And then he ends up proposing to someone and then she says no, but then they get back together.

And then so the whole thing. And like, I was like, by the end, I found him. surprisingly sympathetic, but like you just kind of like clock him, you know, and you're kind of like, okay, like not somebody you really want to be on his side, right? You're kind of just like, oh, I just, I don't even have a reason, but I just feel like this guy kind of sucks, you know? So I do feel like they kind of set that up. So Chalas, take us there. What was your experience of listening to this? I think it's so bizarre about this listening journey is like, in a way, it feels like her lies seem so much dumber.

So I'm used to munchers who are like so calculated, you know, in a way. And in some ways, it's like once you find out, once you read their playbook, you know exactly what you're working with. But I couldn't believe how many things she was willing to lie about that were so easily disprovable. It was jarring. I don't know. Somehow I feel like she took the audacity of munchers and like took it to the next level. Like, yeah. I'm still kind of speaking about it. I'm just like, what? And that was for me also the surprising part, I think, because again, yes, and like, I think especially the three in our lives, right, we're all very smart, very calculated, very like methodical. They're not all like that. You know, there are offenders that are much sloppier and come up with much like stupider ruses. But I think when you are used to someone who's really smart and has sort of put these whole pieces together. And with Laura, it was like, I think what was so shocking about it was,

yeah, the audacity and the caucasity of it, you know, is just like that she really like was someone who leveraged her privilege to like sort of the nth degree of like, I'm just going to weaponize the entire legal system for just like my weird thing that I'm doing. And like, from the jump, the audacity of claiming you're pregnant when you did not have. an encounter that would leave one pregnant, biologically speaking. And I think that almost is like the true psychotic genius of it is that like he's so wrong-footed by that where he's like, how could you be pregnant? We did not have sex. And then he's kind of like, wait, did we? And like, I took a gummy and maybe that was it. And maybe she did this and maybe she went in the back,

You know, sort of like, and they do a good job excavating that with, with Clayton. When he was going through that, I was like, oh, God. Like, I just, I felt that of that thing that you do when you're just trying to reconstruct. And you're like, wait, wait, that doesn't make sense. And then you're like, but maybe, but why would they be doing it if they weren't? And why would someone ever do this? And you could just watch him go through that. And it was like, I found him much more sympathetic, I will say by the end.

Because you just watch him really grapple with this. And like, and then I think also the other. other guys that she'd done it to. It was such a portrait of like the sort of psychological torment that they put people through. And it actually like there were a couple of things, I will say, that like there was a question that was answered by this podcast that I had not known for years about my own story, which is that in my sister's case, right, she had this twin pregnancy that we knew didn't end the way she said it was long suspected it was completely fake. And when I had talked to her ex about this at length, he had recounted this story where

they had a big fight. He told her he was leaving her. And then she produced a pregnancy test. And she worked at an OBGYN clinic at the time. So he was like, uh, questions. And then he told me a story that she had come to visit him and he had her take a test and that it was positive. So then And that completely was just like, he was like, well, maybe she really is pregnant. And then, of course, she then had this whole story where she lost it. He's like, okay, she probably never was pregnant or maybe she was a little bit pregnant. You know, he could never like sort of put it together. And that detail to me, too, was like totally through me, right?

You're just like one of those things where you're like, well, the first one, yeah, she could have just like gotten it from somewhere. But if she was there and sort of like, you're trying to put the whole thing together. And then they reveal the specifics of one of the way she faked a pregnancy test, which came out, which that she had ordered HCG hormone. like if you take this like supplement or whatever that it can make it can cause a fault because that's what the pregnancy test is measuring and so I was like oh my god and I'm like so that you know and again I have no I have no proof of documentation that that's what my sister did whatever that

you know but you know we've heard right like this is not like fake pregnancies and fake pregnancy tests are very common in Montauze's stories and so I was like oh it's just very interesting to like know because they ended up going through all her medical records and found this order for this thing and you're like that's how she pulled it off and there was periods in especially when he's laying out his experience that were like actually pretty intense for me to listen to, just reliving kind of like you think someone's pregnant, you're questioning it or you're not questioning it and then they lose the pregnancy. And it's just like that thing of using a pregnancy to manipulate the people in your lives. I think this show did a really good job of like articulating

how damaging that is to the other people involved. And I really appreciated that. That turned out to be not by far the worst thing that my sister had ever done. And I think like with all of the folks that we've have been in our lives, like what they escalated to was so much worse that it's sort of easy to like almost minimize those things that they did early with like the other lies they told about assault or whatever else. You know, whatever else had sort of happened that like all of that crazy behavior that preceded the actual child abuse situations. It's very easy to sort of look at that as oh, that's like real level one. But I think like this show did a really good job. of articulating like how that psychological torment can really affect me.

And I was compelled by, you know, you see once again, it's like these people are targeting the empaths because as much as Clay Neckern has gotten a bad rap, when he believes at some point that she is pregnant by him, he's like, okay, like, I'm here. What do I need to do? You know, he's not like exiting the scene. He's giving her every benefit of the doubt. Like, this seems crazy. I don't know how this is possible.

but okay if it's real like I'm here and she just takes that for a ride because he does he does care on some level and he wants to be above reproach you know he wants to yeah and he wasn't like I think at least from the guys we hear from and certainly from him and I think one of the things the shows handled Michelle this is maybe what you're responding to with this idea of like oh like bitches be crazy you know like we never want to just like she goes into that in the last episode episode, which I really, really appreciate it. And it does kind of like tie it in because I think, you know, as women and as as much discourse as there is sometimes around being just a woman, it is nice to know that like these things can both and, you know, it's a both in situation. Like these people exist. These women exist. But it's not it's not the majority of us. But so I do appreciate the way she kind of tied that back in. And it did. Again, I went in with like the way he's described is pretty not great, you know, looking for a way out of here. But I think it really does help, I think, bring people back to the humanity of it and how truly devastating it is and how

I think a lot of like the noise around it, not that I really knew much, but like the noise around it is like in the way that is described, like the tabloids talking about it. And like all the internet drama talking about it, it gets very sensationalized. Again, like how many times have we heard about this, right? Like even tying it back to the show. Like, everything you hear about much housing is so overdone and over-dramatized and all this. And I think they do a great job of like really, really getting to like the feelings behind what people go through when you're having to interact with these people and questioning everything. And man, I got to say, the voice actor, they get to read her emails was so good. Yeah. She sounds exactly like her. And, like,

like just the tone of us. Like entitled kind of like, how dare you? Like, yeah, it was really good. It was very well done. Very well produced. Chalice, yeah, like for you, were there parts of this that just kind of having again being like an adjacent person who was pulled in, you know, like not a direct family member, but like somebody who really was like sort of pulled into the whole world of it

for a long time. Like what about this kind of resonated? Like how did this land for you? Yeah, it's funny. I remember there was a point where I just had this one thought immediately counteracted by another thought where I'm just like, how is he going for this? Like this is so obvious. Why is he giving her so much grace?

Why is he giving her the benefit of the doubt? Like I'm like, dude. And then I'm like halfway into that thought. I'm like, that was me. Despite all the evidence, despite all the red flags, despite all the contradictions, I wanted to believe that the person was telling me the truth. And so it was so interesting. It was like a reprocessing in a totally different context and story of like,

like I just kept thinking this whole podcast. Thank God, this woman doesn't have children. Because this is the very formula. Like she, this is who she is. But yeah, it was wild to just, again, in kind of a different like a not quite Munchausen situation to watch how these kind of offenders. bring people along and just twist you up because that was it.

It's just like, let me start a fire here and here and here and let me weave this chaos into this chaos into this chaos. And that felt so familiar. And it's just that like listening to him override all of his rationality. I'm like, yep, been there. And I think like the other thing that felt so familiar to me was that they kept as they, you know, as the story expands and they come in with these like, you know, there's two other men that she's done it to and they talk to like one of them and they talk to his partner.

and the thing that sort of felt like the like, oh, no, like watching a horror movie was that they kept expecting her to be rational. Yeah. And they kept expecting her to like, well, surely she's not going to. And you're like, oh. Like, and I think like that's where, you know, our lived experience, right, gives you a certain lens. We're like, oh, this person's not operating by the same playbook as you. She has all the time in the world. She doesn't care.

Because most people would hate to be in a lawsuit and be dragging stuff out and be going. But like, no, this person is getting enjoyment out of this. She's getting fulfillment out of this. She wants to be here, torturing you. And, like, that's what she's doing. Like, that's why she's doing it, right? I get that it makes no sense from a normal human context. But, like, that's not who you're dealing with.

Like, that's not the story you're watching here. Like, yes, she will keep this going forever. Yes, she will keep extending the protective order that she has against the one guy, which that part was so heartbreaking. Because, like, I think they handled this well in the show. So one of the men, she has a domestic violence restraining order against, and there's no evidence that he ever did anything or assaulted her. And they were in a relationship for a while. And having just come off this season seven where there was two of the cases we talked about, where the men had extensive histories of domestic violence, and seeing like that the police and the court, like, they did nothing in those situations. like it's just seeing how like the majority of the time like we do nothing to protect women who are

actually in those situations and then seeing this person because she has wealthy parents and she's white and she can present herself a certain way as a victim and whatever else like and is just so manipulative that she is able to use these systems in a malicious way and I think again in like a way that women are accused of using the system but don't right I mean John Stewart said the same thing about his ex. He was like, she would use the police just to get back of me or whatever. And I was like, there is no evidence that this woman did this. There is evidence that you were hurting this person and that the police were called and then the police didn't do anything. I was like, that's what the police reports show. And then so to see someone actually doing that.

And I think like, I wonder what you guys kind of, what your reaction to like, and again, I think they handled this one. But I think there was like this, there's almost sort of this like heavy question when you're presenting a story like this. And I think I feel this a lot with the show of like we all feel this very like unfair burden to be like how are we going to represent women like women are this monolith that like needs good PR all the time you know at lest people just decide that we're manipulative harpies who you know whatever it's like there's so many stereotypes that it's like we feel like we all have to be like you know no we don't hate women it's just these ones you know that are doing the bad thing and like I think they handled that well

when they were sort of addressing the like believe women of it all, right? And that's like a very well-meaning catchphrase. I don't think believe women actually works as a rule because women are human. I understand the image is behind it obviously and it's a good, well-intentioned, but I think it's like, it's a tough phrase when you've had the life experiences that we've had because you're like, and sometimes. It's not as nifty of a catchphrase, but I think we, I think it's sort of like, well, Weber, if you're listening, he'll say, believe the evidence, right? Like, and also like if someone is, and I think like believing people who are victimized,

because I think you could tell that one of the things the men were struggling with is this idea that they were the victims in this story in a way that they were not expecting to be victimized in this way. And like did not, I appreciated Clayton Neckar. I mean, Clayton Neckar, honestly, he comes off pretty well by the end. And like he, like he says something along the lines of like, I don't want this story to be taken as look at these crazy bitches that are just out here to trap a man. Like, I don't want it to be that. But yeah, what did you guys think about kind of how they handled that question? Yeah, I mean, again, I kind of said it. I went in with like, that was the presentation. And I think

I personally struggle with that, clearly. If this episode has taught you nothing else, you know, I do struggle a lot as a woman who hasn't been believed in a lot of scenarios, a lot of really awful scenarios, right? Like, as somebody who's been told that she's crazy and as somebody who has kind of to be kind of transparent and vulnerable here who has been through a court system and been told I was crazy and been told I was the problem and been told I was making stuff up. Like, that is really harsh and that's really heavy. And it does kind of make you want to. And Andrea, I didn't really like, I think realize how much that like ingrained in the back of your head until you said it of like you do feel like you have to kind of pioneer for all went like you can't say

anything bad about another woman even if it's deserved even if it's not like talking about it's literally follow the evidence right like the evidence is here i'm not calling this woman a name because of my personal biases or feelings i'm calling this because look at the evidence like look at what she's done and so i i really did like appreciate that moment at the end where she kind of goes through that And like Clayton kind of goes through that and says, like, you know, I don't want this to be that. Like, I don't want this to affect my relationships moving forward. I want to be able to move forward. I understand this is not an every person I run into on the street sort of thing.

So I don't know. It did has kind of like questioned or made me kind of question how harsh I can be. And 90% of it is like joking in just, you know, that sort of thing. But of course, I think I hold some also personal biases there, of course. And I always appreciate any sort of media that can make me question my own biases. I think that's a healthy part of being an adult. So yeah, I think they just did a great job. And I really appreciate Clayton's perspective on that.

I really appreciate like that angle, you know, because he could have not. He could have just kind of let it be. And that would have not been, you know, like he could have done that. And that would still have been okay. He didn't have to sort of thing. So. Yeah, I thought it was handled really beautifully. I think the podcast is such an important.

podcast. It feels a little less niche and probably more accessible to people, but it's revealing a pattern of behavior that I think people just think is too far-fetched. And I'm really thankful for the way that the story was told. You know, they're not positioning. Nobody's like the hero. It's just like, this is just like a regular ass man who happens to have a bad rap from acting kind of shitty in the media. And so we're not like hailing him. It's just like, this is his real story about how he got swept up into nobody ever sees this coming. Yeah. No, and you don't, right?

I mean, that's the, and that is why people get pulled in, I think, and get stuck in their own disbelief and sort of, I get the sense that he and the other guys who, the other, and the other they sound like they're also like nice guys. They have, you know, they're married. They have kids. Like, they're sort of following the script of what they think. It's like, okay, you get someone pregnant. You show up.

Even if you're like, I don't recall having sex with that person. But like she says it. So, okay, it's like, you know, you just sort of follow him like being like, okay, what does, what am I, what am I supposed to do here? Like, what's the next right step? And it's so easy to get caught up in that. We just got back from a lovely week of family vacation. And while I am bummed, it's over, I am so happy to get back to my own bed and my own bedding, which recently got a major upgrade with a new set of Bowling Branch's signature organic cotton sheets. I do not mess around with my sleep. And these sheets are incredible. It feels so. good to crawl in there after a long day. My husband, who is a very hot sleeper, also loves these sheets because they are extremely breathable, and they get softer after every wash. There is nothing worse than having sheets that are scratchy or bunch up. I am a middle-aged woman with two small children. Sleep is precious. Sleep is everything, and I love these sheets so much. I also got their

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Summer is going by so fast, but not too fast for a wardrobe refresh. And I have two fun quints out in the wild stories for you. I was emailing with a doctor friend who's been on the show, and while we were not primarily discussing fashion, he told me that he was looking at for some linen pants for his upcoming travel and did I sincerely recommend the brand Quince that I was always talking about on the show and I told him yes I do Dr. Booze I love Quince I love their linen pants in particular my producer Mariah loves their linen pants quince linen for everyone also I have talked about how much I love Quince's Italian leather handbags and I saw one of my neighbors wearing the quince

sling bag in Cognac out at our town's 4th of July parade and it looked so chic and cool that I went and bought one for myself Seriously, so many people I know love this brand, and for a good reason, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman so that you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And they have so much to choose from. So whether you're looking for last minute summer essentials like swimmer or sunglasses,

or if you're already looking at fall with their cashmere sweaters and outerwear, accessories, home goods, they've got you. So upgrade your every day. Go to Quince.com slash Believe for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash believe for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. So one of the things that sort of struck me listening to it, which was honestly like a little bit tough, even though I do not blame any of this on the team. Like this is,

this is like, not a criticism of the show, but just I think was emotionally difficult was sort of like the people who've been harmed by this woman rightfully want justice and like Clayton specifically says you know he wants her to like go to jail and I was kind of like oh sweetie even when they hurt real children they don't go to jail and like I mean sometimes they do but it's just like it kind of felt like oh that's like that's a fantasy like that they would that they would come down this hard, especially someone in that position, right, who can afford really good lawyers and has family support and everything else. And I was just like, oh, I think you should like find a new dream because I don't think that's how this story is going to end.

But I think I also felt a little bit, some kind of way, about the tremendous public support that these men got as this went to trial and went to the courts and they got all these. And that's totally understandable because of course this is a big story that happened because he was the bachelor and like this same thing has happened to other men that did not ever get this kind of support and see justice and all that. And I think Michelle maybe I'm just looking at you and I'm wondering if this hit you the same way because here we are we can't even get authorities to look into Colin's death. And the dissonance there, it's not because I don't want there to be some recourse in this woman. I think there should.

Even what's happened so far, even her being taken to court and being held accountable at all is more than it's happened in a lot of cases and in yours in particular. And I mean, to be so clear and fair about it, are they deserving of support? Yeah, absolutely. My mother never probably ever walking into a courtroom to be held accountable for my brother at all. Never going to happen, right? Like, I kind of understand that. That's where we're at. Like, that's the reality of it. It sucks. but like, but that's not to say that like these men don't also deserve like support. Absolutely. Does Laura Owens need to be held accountable? Absolutely. But it does kind of like almost sting a little bit and not that I, not in like a I blame society or I blame or anybody else. Any other like victim going through it. I don't I don't hold like blame towards anybody for it. It just does sing a little bit that that's kind of the society we live in. Right. Like people are so drawn to like drama and. television and the celebrity status of it all, that they will go to bat for these strangers and not for like kids. I mean, that just kind of, it just kind of sucks. It stings a little bit.

Yeah. And there was, so there's a moment when I'm listening to the show that I was just like, I almost had to turn it off. And then I was like, no, I'm going to get through it because I've been enjoying listening to this and want to hear what happens. So Megan Fox is a huge YouTube journalist. And she, in the context of this story, was very into report. She was like, did a lot of reporting. I think she covers a little bit of pop culture stuff in addition to the true crimey type stuff that she does on her channel.

I'm not going to pretend I'm extremely familiar with all of her content, but I know she does kind of a mix of those two things. So not surprising, but she was like, they interviewed a bunch of times and she was very behind like, yes, justice needs to be served and let's hold Laura. Owen's accountable and she did these terrible things. And I was like, Megan, that is so great. Can you hang on to that lens a little bit harder? Because Megan Fox is an avowed munchasm by proxy denialist. She had Gregory Anderson on a ton of times during the Kualski case. She made a nasty video about me in particular. She has made nasty videos about child abuse pediatricians. She has one

called the Munchy Bunch. So she is like a hardcore abuse nihilist. So I was like, you can accept that people will do this, but then with like the sort of next level of this behavior. And it's just about broke my brain. I yet don't know how to deal with those feelings. And I'm not like upset that they interviewed her or whatever. It's like not even about that. I'm just like, this is a strange experience for me personally, knowing this person's reaction. And I'm just like, knowing this person's reaction. to like my reporting on the Kowalski case. And like, apparently there's like, and I did not watch the video because I don't, I don't engage with stuff about me and this.

Again, what other people think of me, including Megafox, generally not in my business. But people did bring it to my attention and they're like, oh, she's going to, she like said she was going to like fight you or something. I was like, okay. And again, I don't know that's true. I did not fact check that. But like, or like offered to, I don't know. She's made, she made some video about me and like paywall did or whatever.

So that just like put a really fine point on my sort of like, yeah, like people. rally behind these men, and they should, but then when you explain that someone else is using the same pattern of behavior to harm a child, then they will ride or die for the person who's harming the children. It just doesn't. And like this specific person, Megan Fox has actively done that on the context of her platform. And it's just like, I just, my brain was like, the amount of triggers you were able to push through to get through the spirits and still enjoy it on the moment. Yeah. I mean, it. Again, it's kind of like the Elizabeth Gilbert.

Like, I was like, I had a time. Like, I was compelled. There was, I mean, I will say like overall, I mean, it's so compelling. And I think they did such a good job with it. And I think knowing how solid that team is was making it. I was like, yeah, I just like sort of trusted them to not take it totally sideways. Yeah, I did. I did find myself, like, dealing with some triggers.

But I think it was, like, kind of helpful to reprocess and kind of helpful to even the Megan Fox of it all. I was kind of like, it's a little bit know your enemy. I think it's just another. measure of like how what we are up against in that like people can put the dots together in a certain situation but then if you confront them with something that is more awful then they just go their brain just goes nope the Megan Fox thing specifically that feels such it's such a convenient narrative for her I don't know her but it's just like that feels very convenient for her to be able to to be such a denier, but then also rally, rally for this cause,

because how do you not see? Like, that feels very intentional. I don't feel like that's a, you are so close to a situation type of thing where you like can't see it because you're being gaslit so much and you can't rack your brain around it because you're close to this person. That type of behavior feels very intentional that she is like intentionally looking beyond it on purpose for one reason or the other. And it also is probably like a little for her favor to be on that bandwagon. From my general understanding of her and I refuse to do more research on her unless it's absolutely necessary. So I mean, I think she had Gregory Anderson on a ton during the trial. So I think she's a medical kidnapping person. I think she's a, I don't know. She might be a Q&ON girlie.

Who knows? Who knows it again? I refuse to find out. I will not be learning more against Megan Fox or more about Megan Fox. Well, anyway, any final thoughts about the podcast? I think they're making more seasons. So I'm very curious to see what this show does next. But I thought it was really well done. And I think these stories of like helping people understand like how people can weaponize victimhood, weaponize systems of justice, weaponize femininity even. I mean, I think there's like some really interesting stuff in there that is important. important to talk about because I think it's like if you just let things exist out there as a stereotype, then it's almost like I'm always curious to know if they, like, I want to hear a story about a false

allegation of much husband by proxy because then what does that look like? And so it's like, there's the trope of the woman who lies about a pregnancy to trap a man and you're like, that's what this looks like. So if a person's not doing this kind of stuff, if they're not like this level of unhinged, then they're probably not lying about a pregnancy to trap a man because they would be doing other weird things. It's like the whole idea of that. of like a bunch house by proxy that perpetrators put out there that it's like, oh, they just have this one diagnosis that person doesn't understand. It's like, no, it's like that and 8,000 other things that you're doing. So I think it's helpful to talk about the 8,000 other things.

I also just think there's an interesting other conversation about like, oh, well, this like single desperate woman, like, well, that makes sense. But then again, we like put mothers on a pedestal. It's like they would never. Yes. Yeah. And it's like, no, this person, I'm glad this is being publicize now because for God forbid future children, I feel like, will be protected in a different way because of all of this stuff. You know, imagine if Lisa and Megan, it's like prior to all of this stuff was exposed. And then Megan Fox really will be in a pickle because you be like, we hope that that just doesn't happen. I just hope she does not have kids. I mean, she's in her, how old is she? She's like 40-ish, right? I mean, not that you can't have kids at 40. I had my second baby at 40,

But, I mean, one hopes, one hopes that this person just does not have children. I do not feel bad saying that. I think this person does, this person does not need to have children. Even if she doesn't perpetrate this abuse on him, this person is a deceptive, chaotic, manipulative person. And I don't think, I just don't, I just don't think everyone needs to be a parent. Call me crazy. I don't know why he would draw that conclusion.

What has she done? Oh, the other thing I wanted to ask you guys about, what did you think about her parents? I feel like this whole entire episode has been me just trying to find humor in every single thing because I guess that's just what I need and where I'm at in my life today. Ask me tomorrow I'll be an emotional wreck. But like today, today we're laughing. So, so sorry. If I had that level of support from my parents growing up, I would have been unstoppable.

I mean, I still am. Don't get me wrong. Correct. Yeah. Honestly, that's further thought. for later. Maybe the reason I am is because of the lack of support. But anyway, I'm just saying, like, imagine giving that level of support to your kid and they're like a good human, though. I mean, beyond all of the, of course, beyond all of them, just like cannot ever do anything wrong,

always forever making excuses. But oh my God, are there not some problematic issues with her dad too? Like, I need a whole podcast with somebody deep diving into her parents. That's what I need. Because there is some tea there. Andrea, if you ever get enough of telling MbPA stories, maybe you can take a left turn into whatever is wrong with that woman's parents. But then what's the through line between these parents and those husbands? That's really fair.

At some point, you're so committed to... There's in so deep. That's a really good point. Yeah, it's like, I think in the beginning you're defending, and then before you know it, you're just like fully on board. Like you're seeing it, you're watching it, and now you're co-signing it. You're in the delusion at some point. Yeah.

It's just far, though, because it's like, this is the child. Like, I cannot wrap my mind around it. I feel like I have follow-up questions. about her dad's illness because for obvious reason now I don't know anything about that so I'm not insinuating but of course you hear about that it's like you hear about a secularly parent you're like oh oh and then also her mom just seems I was like oh this might be an apple didn't fall far from the tree situation I mean there's like this police tape of her where she's just like 10 toes down for her daughter shanagan's and you're just like oh you are part of the problem here like Michelle you're called it support. I think this is like enabling of that. I'm like, your daughter is a grown woman. I mean, and it's like the other way this is very muchy is like, oh, she does not like to have a job. They don't like to work. Arguably scamming is a full-time job. But it's like, you cannot get these ladies to just go to a regular job. Well, I thought the first many episodes, I was like, they're not really talking about her parents.

And I'm like, oh, probably couldn't get a comment. Maybe her parents have distanced themselves. Even though I was just like, surely they don't know. And then you start diving into that and you're like, not only do they know, but they are like rallying in every possible way. And it's just, I mean, it's like we've all seen it, right? I mean, like with, you know, Michelle, your dad and with Sophie's parents and with my sister's husband and her in-laws, I'm just like, it does not matter how much evidence you put in front of these people. It will not change their minds. That was part one of my conversation with Michelle and Chalice, two of my all-time favorite people. If you want to hear us talking about Lindy West's memoir, Adult Braces, you can find that right now on our subscriber feed.

And be sure to tune into the main feed tomorrow for my conversation with Stephanie Young. Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.