Nobody Should Believe Me - NSBM After Hours: Anatomy of Lies Part 1

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

We're unlocking an episode from the subscriber feed. Enjoy! *** This is the first part of Andrea and Dr. Bex’s coverage of the Peacock documentary series “Anatomy of Lies”. The show dives into the story of Elisabeth Finch, who was best known as a head writer on “Grey’s Anatomy”, and the lies that her life was built on. In their conversation about the first part of this docuseries, Andrea and Dr. Bex discuss Munchausen syndrome, the impact of false narratives in storytelling, particularly when it comes to claims of personal trauma, and how Finch’s claims intersected with the public discourse of the Me Too era. *** Listen to the rest of this series: https://www.patreon.com/collection/1433425 Watch “Anatomy of Lies”: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/anatomy-of-lies/6024435431465947112 Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media Hello, it's Andrea. We are going to be back with new episodes starting next week. But in the meantime, today I'm unlocking an episode from our subscriber-exclusive show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours, where Dr. Beck's and I cover a wide range of Munchausen and Munchausen-By proxy-related pop culture. These conversations are a little more casual, and I really enjoy having them. Today we're sharing the first in our multi-part series on the Peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies,

all about Gray's anatomy writer Elizabeth Finch, who pulled some of Hollywood's biggest names into her complicated, abusive deceptions. Just a reminder that as a subscriber, you get ad-free listening, you get all episodes of a new season the day they launch, and at least two bonus episodes a month. We've also got lots of great extras from season six up there now, including a catch-up with Michelle, extended cuts of my conversation with Aunt Sabrina, my recap. of the confrontation with Lisa and more. Subscribing is the best way to support the show, but as always, if that's not an option, rating, reviewing, and sharing the show wherever you talk to people also really helps.

And with that, here is the first part of my conversation with Dr. Bex about the anatomy of lies. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much, first of all, for being a subscriber. I am back with Dr. Bex, who I haven't recorded with in a little. while for the subscriber feed. However, Bex has been with me quite a bit on the main feed and we're working on a lot of things behind the scenes. But I just wanted to say to everyone, thank you so much for your patience as I, for waiting for this episode because I know I've been saying that we're going to cover Anatomy of Lies for a little while. And just to kind of be transparent.

transparent, the case that we are working on for our next full season, season six, is really difficult and it has just taken, I think, a bigger emotional toll on me for a whole bunch of different reasons than I sort of anticipated. And that has necessitated me taking some short breaks where I can, which is difficult with making this show because, you know, I and none of these are complaints. These are just to sort of give you guys a little bit behind the scenes, but, you know, this show has become my full time job. I'm so grateful for that. Obviously, we do cover really difficult material and we cover it really, really in depth. And that, you know, means obviously I have now a wonderful team, including you, Bex, helping me do that, which is so

appreciated. But, you know, in between our full seasons, which take by far the most work, you know, we're also producing episodes for case files. We're going to be doing some original reporting on case files with you, Bex. So everyone has that to look forward to. But it has just been a massive challenge to sort of keep the show going, keep the business of the show going, keep the content going, and also keep my mental health on track, which is sometimes the last thing I think about. So, yeah, that's all just to say. I really appreciate your support. Subscriptions to the show are one of our main. Thank you. Just got a tea delivery. Look at that. That's nice. Thank you, Kim. I know. She's the best.

And Kim is my nanny. So she's upstairs with my son. And she just made me a cup of tea. But, yeah, subscriptions are a main way that I am able to keep making this show. pay all of the fine people that work for me. And it is something that I think is probably going to be even more important given how tariffs may impact many of the direct-to-consumer brands that make up my advertisers. So just to say, thank you all so much for your support and, yeah, and for being so engaged with this show. So that's my preamble today. And today we are going to talk about the anatomy of lies, which is a peacock documentary about Elizabeth Finch. And before we get into all of that, Bex, how are you doing? How are you holding up?

Because you are doing a lot of reporting for the show as well and really taking on some of these duties in kind of a new way. So how are you doing? I think I'm doing okay. I might have said a couple days ago. I was kind of a little bit where you were. There's been a lot. I'm still working full time at the hospital, obviously, and then all of this. And I think it's just starting to overlap more and more. And a lot of people now coming to me, you know, where I know you were and you know this feeling of people kind of coming to you and asking for advice and asking for help and you want to be there for all of them. But it also, you become the one, like that one person that people come to. And I just think it's a lot on me. I think emotionally and mentally and I still have

a bit of a, I think a chip on my shoulder that I don't ever want to become not objective. I've told you this many times like that. But the problem is if every single person comes to me whenever they're concerned about something, right, that I know in life that anyone comes to me, it starts to be like that's all I'm seeing because that's what people are coming and asking me questions about. And so I just think I'm still trying so much to, like, have something outside of all this. So I remember, you know, that this isn't all there is. But truthfully, I was talking to a friend the other day and this is not rare. That's all I have to say, like what this show and what presenting on the subject and talking to people in institutions all across the country and various walks of

life, it's not rare. And people are seeing it and people are scared. And I think the fact that we're doing this show, although it takes its toll, too. I know it does. Like, it is so important right now because this, it is happening and we have to, we have to keep doing it because I just think it's so important. Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective, Bex. And I know, you know, for those who don't know, Bex is obviously working full time as a pediatric hospitalist, but also has been, you know, you've been dedicating a lot of, you know, your time unpaid to doing presentations at conferences and really have become such a voice on this. And it's so valuable to have someone who's in the medical community and has that perspective in addition to, you know,

in addition to your research and reporting that you're doing for this show. So it's just really valuable. And I think it just doesn't seem like an accident that we both ended up here. And I'm just So grateful. You know, I'm great. I'm so grateful for how involved you've become. And it's, it's really helped me to not feel like, oh, I'm the only person that, you know, people can go to. And, and yeah, I mean, we're, you know, we're not alone. We have amazing colleagues that we share on the AppSack Committee, which VEX is now an official member of the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by proxy committee. You know, but it's really, it's intense. And it feels like really worthwhile work. And, you know, often feels like exciting feels like a weird word, but I think it does feel, it feels good in a sense to sort of be on the vanguard of something and feel like your work is useful and helpful to people and reaching people. I think that's all very, that's all very heartening. And for me, certainly, that helps kind of counterbalance just the despair that you can get into. on the individual level of seeing these cases, it's just not easy to look at child abuse. And then also just like on the bigger level of like how the media is currently treating this

issue of medical kidnapping, which we will get into. But for today, we are in, I don't want to say entirely lighter territory, but lighter territory, I would say, than what we're currently working on for, for season six, for sure. Today we are talking about the Peacock documentary three-part series on Elizabeth Finch and just a couple of disclaimers at the top here. This is based primarily on our watching of that series. I have read the Vanity Fairpiece. I have read a couple of like Elizabeth Finch's response to the story a while ago. But really today we are just going through.

the series. If this is a case that you all are really interested in and want us to do a deeper dive on the Patreon and potentially maybe even put together an episode or two for the main feed, please let us know. But, you know, this is where the Patreon is where we get to have a little bit of a lighter load in general. But I do think this is a really interesting case. And I think there's a lot more to get into that did not make it into this Peacock series. So let us know. where you want us to take this. And as always, if there are other things that are sort of munchaus and adjacent in pop culture, especially, there are a lot of things right now with Scamanda and

apple cider vinegar and the Belkipson story. So just let us know what you're most interested in hearing about. And we'll direct our energies accordingly. So, Bex, do you want to just start by telling us where this sort of, story begins. So we're episode one, the talented Ms. Finch. So for those who don't know anything about the background of this, this is the story of Elizabeth Finch, who in her, her probably biggest role as a writer was on Grey's Anatomy, although she wrote for shows like True Blood and Vampire Diaries early on in her career. And she was a very successful writer on

Grey's Anatomy. And during the course of her work on Grey's Anatomy, she also reported that she was suffering from a terminal bone cancer in her spine called Condro Sarcoma. And that was kind of where her medical story begins. And it very much intertwines with her work as a writer on Grey's Anatomy. And also then into her personal life when she kind of meets a partner and gets married. and is involved with that partner's children. So I think this is kind of unique for us. I actually think it's the first time we're covering an actual Munchausen syndrome or factitious disorder imposed on self diagnosis or thought, I guess,

that's what we're thinking or that's what it seems she is. And so it's kind of interesting looking at it from this level because we're taking it back to the imposed on self, but there are still children involved in this story. So I think as a Munchausen story, this one hit home, as does apple cider vinegar as well, with the impact that kind of is secondarily on the kids that are in the story. So I think we'll probably focus a little bit on that as well. Yeah, for sure. And interestingly, you know, we'll kind of get into our episode by episode breakdown of the story that this tells.

But interestingly, they really don't bring up Munchausen or infectious disorder imposed on another in the Peacock documentary. I can't. Yeah, the words actually don't come up now that you mentioned it. They do not come up. They do not talk to an expert. And I think it's really interesting. And I think one thing we can kind of unpack as we go through this is what, and this is something I think about a lot. What is the difference between someone who is a pathological liar, you know, and someone who has this specific, you know, psychiatric diagnosis? And like, where do those things cross over? Where is the line? what is, why does it become a medical thing? Like, what is it? Is it just the medical, you know, medical obsession plus, you know, these other traits, these other sort of personality disorder traits that make someone a pathological liar? So I think, I think that's kind of an interesting piece to unpack, because I think what you see in this case is a lot of, like, other very, you know, very deceptive, very manipulative behaviors that don't have anything to do with, with medicine or a, you know, diagnosis, but do sort of have that same framework of framing the person

as a victim, you know, exploiting traumas, this sort of like stolen valor element of it. So I think that's really, I think that's really interesting to look at. Okay. And I start off, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, did you watch apple cider vinegar yet? Have you watched it out of curiosity? I have not watched apple cider vinegar yet. So it is interesting. At the last, the last part, I'm not going to spoiled the story. But basically at the end, they play a run of the song Vampire by Olivia Rodrigo. And it's one of my family's favorite songs. That's weird. We listen to it. So I knew this song. And it actually hit me because in the course of anatomy of lies, there is also someone along the way who calls Elizabeth Finch, a trauma vampire, I believe is the terminology. And it really was very

interesting to me. So I think as we talk through this, but this idea of they are stealing other people's stories too. Like they're going on blogs and they're reading what other people are actually suffering from. A lot of people I know reached out to the show during the Kualski case about CRPS and saying, I really suffer from CRPS. And this is making it harder for me to get care because people are now doubting me or my story. And that's hard to hear. But I think it's very very true. And this one, I think, captures it completely that it's not just stealing these medical stories, but it's stealing all this trauma from people and making it their own and making theirs worse and more pertinent and kind of downplaying or somehow minimizing the other persons

because yours is so dramatic. And it's, I just, I feel for some of the people in this story very much show because people did seem to really care about Elizabeth. And just the amount of that kind of sucking of information and of trauma was was hard to watch. Yeah. I mean, that Olivia Rodriguez song is a banger, and now I will surely listen to it in a new a new movie. It could be our theme song, let me tell you. Yeah, no kidding, right?

I'll just play it out and hope she doesn't sue us. Okay, so this first episode of The Talented Miss Finch covers Elizabeth's sort of a little bit about her early life and kind of getting this job on Grey's Anatomy. So as you said, she was a television writer for some other shows. And it sounds like she just had this encyclopedic knowledge of Grey's Anatomy was just like a mega fan. And so they speak to kind of a number of people that knew her during this period. So they talk to, you know, someone who is a classmate of hers at USC. They talk to a college friend called Aurora who comes up a bunch of times.

And they talk to like a former colleague of her from Gray's. And, you know, I think like one, I think one sort of overall critique I had of this series is that I, I, there were so many other sources that I wished that we'd heard from. And that's just the nature of the beast, you just can't always get people to talk about that. But I did like, with the classmate from USC, I was kind of like, I don't really understand who this guy is. It's not clear to me that, like, he knew her that well. And I think I just have a very heightened lens towards this because I always kind of when we're talking to this. sources, you know, you, like, when we're reaching out to sources about someone, you always kind of want to be a little bit, like, just a little bit cautious about like, oh, does this

person just like have an ax to grind or they want their moment in the spotlight? And I'm like, I think my sort of take on the male classmate from USC was kind of like, I think this guy just wanted to get a documentary. It doesn't seem clear that he knew her that much. But I think Aurora and Jen and then the writers were like the ones who I could like feel their emotional impact through, you know what I mean, through the screen, that they were really affected. Laura really seemed like, yeah, she was very close to her. So they cover, you know, that she around this time has, you know, is reporting that she has this diagnosis of chondro sarcoma, you know, which she's used it as a serious brain, or excuse me,

serious bone cancer, you know, that can be life-threatening. And so it appears from the way that they tell this story that her diagnosis both helped her get this job and helped her keep it. because, you know, she didn't, it sounds like she wasn't, you know, from the people we hear from, she wasn't like the highest performer in this writer's room. And, you know, for those that, I mean, getting into a writer's room on a major show like this, I mean, that is one of the most competitive processes. So I think we can probably assume that like she has a fair amount of talent. She certainly seems smart, which is always, you know, like those are sort of

of the most diabolical of these offenders, certainly seems like people really liked her and that she was pretty charming and had a way to bring people in. But I think like it's, it appears that that diagnosis and that story about her being sick got her a lot of special accommodations and, you know, and like maybe disincentivized them from letting her go in circumstances where they might have otherwise, which I can understand, right? It's like nobody wants to be the person to fire someone with cancer. Right. And I think hearing it from the writers, again, kind of during the course of the show, because you kind of play through with them there, when they were working with her thinking she truly had cancer and then kind of after the reveal and just how, you know, their emotions very much changed.

But it sounds like there were a lot of times where, you know, she would start writing something or something happened. And then it was her work would kind of drift off. And everybody else, stepped up because who doesn't step up for a colleague that has cancer or that's sick. I mean, we all do it. When people are on maternity leave, we cover them, paternity leave, whatever it might be. That's what you do as a colleague. But it was interesting to me because the way writers' salaries work, they mentioned during the show, is that you aren't only paid for the work you do on the show. You're paid every time the show airs in syndication. Every time your words are kind of spoken on screen, whether in repeats and on now all the streaming services, you get

royalties for that. So even though she was like the primary writer of an episode, all those other people who stepped in for her when she was sick are not getting the same royalties as she is. So there is, in this one, there is that financial gain too, I think, that that I know was frustrating for these writers, but it was also that emotional heartstrings. Like, everybody stepped up for her. And like you said, even to the point that they said, she, basically she won't be fired. So she, in a way, she had the ultimate, you know, protection. And that's an interesting piece of the sick role is, is that protection, I think. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, even though we talk as we've talked about with factitious disorders like malingering or malingering

by proxy where you are engaging in these behaviors for a material gain so for money for extra time off for work for accommodations to avoid getting fired you know i think those are like uh malingering behaviors but i have never seen a case of munchausen or munchausen by proxy that didn't have some crossover right so i think like there is also tangible benefits and it's sort of like if someone would do it outside of those, which I think this certainly fits the bill because there weren't tangible benefits to all of these lies. But it seems like she used her alleged cancer diagnosis pretty deftly. So I just wanted to ask you, Bex, are you, what is your relationship with Grace Anatomy? Are you a fan? That's a good question. So actually, I will admit seasons like

one through three. I want to say I was in med school residency. I don't know. I was definitely early on and I was I watched it religiously I did I love the characters Patrick Dempsey oh like definitely one of my things dr. McDreamy oh for sure I'm definitely a McDreamy I'm definitely I'm a McDreamy I'm a Patrick Dempsey but I'm also old so that might make sense um but I think we're in the McDreamy demographic yeah oh definitely um and then you got a little gray the little salt and pepper anyway side checked so um but I did watch it very religiously I remember up to the point. I remember very, very vividly the hospital shooter episode when the shooter came into the hospital. And that one, I mean, I was, I was affected by that. That scared me. It really brought

home some things for me about what career I was getting into. And then it just started to get to that. I can't handle things when they start getting to that unbelievable level. Like how many things can happen at one hospital to the same people how many times can they die and come back to life right it became very soap opera and i think that as a physician too there were starting to be a lot more medical discrepancies and things like the surgeons were doing everything let me tell you surgeons operate all this other stuff that they were doing um that sounds great but realistically their job is Great. So I stopped watching probably season three or season four. Yeah. Okay. You know, it all begs the question, Bex. You know, we've got a show that is really pushing the boundaries of the believable, you know, the medical information that it is presenting does not add up. Does this show itself have much of it? Is it an allegory for? Is it just attempting to get attention? Because, you know, once you start out, asking, how does this series of terrible things keep happening to this same group of people?

I mean, it makes a question. Actually, that's so true. That's kind of a joke, but it does. But well done. Yeah. You sort of think about like how Elizabeth exactly fits into this. And you're kind of like, I mean, it seems like fertile ground for someone whose mind operates this way. I mean, Meredith's life is like a walking, oh my God, how did one more thing happen to Meredith Gray, right? It's just like if any of the characters on the show, we're presenting the series of events. We would have questions. It's true.

It's true. Yeah. I mean, I watched the show in its early years. I was a big fan in the early years. I mean, I watched up through, like, I think where I lost it was with the whole Izzy and Denny storyline. There's like a scene where she kind of has, like, sex with his ghost. And I was just like, I think I might be able to know that. Right.

And so, you know, this show pretty unfamiliar, and I would love to hear from you all, if you are fans when you stopped watching. Are you still watching? I think it's on episode. It's like on season 1,026 at this point. This is just like, but yes. To your point, it's like the bachelor at this point. Yeah. It's like uncillable. Like we'll keep going probably until they're like people stop watching. But you know, this is like, yes, to your point about like the revenue potential for the writers here, it's like this is. as a show, especially like, you know, this system and television in terms of like residuals and streaming is like changing a lot. But like certainly at this time when she joined the show was like that that potential for income is just massive when you're talking about a hugely popular show that's on a network that is like a major sort of tent pole show for a network that's then being played in reruns forever and ever and ever. So yeah. So I think just some kind of pieces that stuck out to me from this first episode as we just kind of trace her getting into getting into her role in Grays. You know, as we said, she, they speak to a college friend

called Aurora and she had some stories that just, I just was, I just found her to be very sympathetic and really thought, oh, this person just got, especially like, you know, you meet somebody really young. And I think the implication there, right, was that they were both, was that they were both part of the, like, LGBTQ community, is that right? Or am I making that? Yep, and had a brief relationship at some point, yep. Yes. Okay, thank you.

I just got lost on the details there. But you can see, like, you know, they connected in college. They had this experience and, like, together. And you can see where, like, this bond formed maybe before some of these behaviors were so, you know, we're getting outrageous. And I think that's a really, that really, you know, resonates with me as like, like she knew her before. Right.

Exactly. When I think about sort of the trajectory that, you know, not only my own sister, but like a lot of these people go on, right? It's like, you made someone in their early 20s. Like, these behaviors might not be as extreme as they're going to get in like four or five, six years. And there were a lot of parallels, I have to say, talking about Elizabeth's trajectory that really reminded me of Hope Ybarra, who we covered in the first season of the show. And she had this alleged, again, a form of bone cancer called Ewing sarcoma, this equally sort of like rare and aggressive. And she, this detail about Elizabeth giving her friend, Aurora, a copy of the book, The Fault in Our Stars, which is a young adult book about a girl who has cancer, really reminded me of like, you know, Hope Yobar giving her brother the last lecture and this kind of just like sort of strange, like, that she was being a little, it sounds like she was being a little like coy about it with her friend and this diagnosis. and then her going to the Mayo Clinic with her.

Did that scene strike you also? Oh, very much. Because this act, well, we may get into, I think we are going to get into the Bell Gibson story, but there's a scene about this in apple cider vinegar as well with the, you know, always asking someone to sit in the car and not wanting someone to come in, so driving to the treatments but not coming in and because they want privacy or don't want them to have to suffer through that. But then Aurora describes a time where she actually went in because she was like,

what am I doing? This is my friend. She's going through something. Like, I want to be there. And the wanting to go in really pissed Elizabeth off. Like definitely got very angry and kind of, you know, accusatory or nasty to Aurora. And Aurora said, you know, I let her get angry. She was sick.

Like, you know, she has a right to be angry. And I think that's that mentality as well that you let people get away with. things like there is right i mean you forgive them certain things i always say that about parents which reminds me kind of of the koalski when these doctors got on the stand and we're like do you know how many times a parent yells at me in a day like it's not this is not that rare like people are going through stuff they they aren't at their best they want to take it out on someone and so i think we do we forgive a lot and um and she said that and it just i think there was part of her who was should I have, you know, recognize these signs earlier, but I just wouldn't have even thought it because

she was my friend and she was sick and I was just going to keep being there. You know, I wasn't going to ask the hard questions. Yeah. And I think like, you know, we don't, like there's a very, you're in two very different mindsets if you sort of like, you know, and we'll talk about sort of how Jen went to her ex-wife went through this evolution of like, you know, when you are in believing mode, you're looking at things very differently from when you get into like sort of investing in your mode, right? And so I think like those are two really different lenses. And yeah, it struck me that Aurora said you can forgive anything when your friend tells you they're dying. And I was like, well, that's really like kind of the heart of it right there. Exactly. And that was the, that's the line I think I highlighted as well.

And it, I said it has links to apple cider vinegar that we can talk about after we cover that. But a very similar thing with, with Belle's partner going through very similar of wanting to put her on the spot wanting her to be honest, wanting her to show him, you know, records and things like that. And then when she didn't want to, him saying, but she was sick, she has a right to not show me those things, you know, or whatever. And so again, like this feeling that something doesn't feel right, but you would never, you're just like, they're sick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, just to say, like, with both of us, you know, you're sort of talking at the top of the episode about how, you know, when you're looking at these cases all the time, you can get into this

mindset of like, you know, oh, am I so fixated on this that I'm seeing it everywhere. But I think you and I have really strong, like, checks and balances for that of like, we also understand that, you know, you don't judge someone just on how they're acting. Like, if they're acting weird or they're acting erratic, like stress, dealing with illness, the healthcare system's insane. You know, all of those things can make people act strange. And acting strange is not the same as one of these behaviors. So, yeah, I think that's kind of like, but you can see how when people are getting caught into it. They're like, well, I haven't had cancer. I wouldn't know what that's like. So maybe this is how people act, you know, and it wouldn't necessarily stick out to them. Right. And I think in my career,

if I get, you know, the feeling or I'm questioning or I start to notice behaviors, I do have the benefit of having the medical record that I can look back at and see. And I've told you the cases I have reviewed, I am searching for the real diagnosis. Like, I am looking because I want to be proved wrong when I'm going backwards. And often, as you know, when we've dug into these cases, it only multiplies. And it's, it almost makes me sick to my stomach because I'm like, come on, just one. Just one. I want to go back and I want to realize, and not to say I have not been wrong, like when my spidey sense goes off a little bit for sure, but like the ones, once I start doing a deep dive into the ones that are extremely concerning, it is, it's like you want to find it and you don't. You just find more deception or more falsification or more question marks than you started with. And I'm sure that's how these people feel, but they don't even have a medical record. They're still, their only source of information is the person. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I mean, the reality is, like, we don't, you know, this is sort of like, you know, our tagline for the show is like people, like people believe their eyes, right? And it's like, I mean, this happened to me recently with someone I know in a different context, but where, you know, like, you meet a person and you get to know them in real life and you're not necessarily like going to go down some internet rabbit hole about them. But then maybe like something starts to seem a little bit off. And then you do, right? But it's like the offness has to sort of. of like build. And you're probably not going to go down that rabbit hole on the first sign of

something being off. It's going to be like a couple of things over time. You know, so yeah, it's just to give a lot of grace to people that get pulled up in these. So, you know, so she goes about her work at Grace. And now she gets into this kind of pattern of, as you said, you know, like vampire behavior, ironic, because she did right on not one but two vampire shows. I know the irony, right? Yeah. And this is, well, it's like, it kind of makes sense, right? In the way, it's like, vampires and medical stuff. Like, that's what she, those are the shows she wrote on. So it's like, I know. And it's almost like this put her sort of obsessions to some use there. And unfortunately,

could not keep it confined. And, you know, I thought it's like, I'm, I'm a fiction writer. And I've thought many times, I'm like, why can't these people just funnel this into fiction? And it's, it's interesting because she did. But, like, also, like, she was not. There was no line between. the fiction she was creating for, you know, her television shows and the fiction that she was creating in her own life story. So unfortunately, it's just like, oh, there just was like no barrier there. So she writes, you know, an Elle magazine story about her cancer. And there's this like Friday Night Lights support campaign with like Kyle Chandler coach. By the way, I love that show. I love him too. Yeah. I just love that whole show. And she writes an episode.

based on her cancer that gets a lot of attention. I will say, like, I think just because even in this era, like, the sort of 2015, like, Grays had already gotten, like, pretty melodramatic. And so whenever in the peacock dock, they, like, interspersed these clips from the shows, like, it just was, I don't know. I just thought that was funny. I thought that was, like, unintentionally funny. No, I think it's what you said is actually so accurate that, like, but you almost

wonder, it's like when she kind of, you know, joined the show, I agree. it was probably already starting to escalate, but then I kind of do want to go back at some point and watch the couple episodes or some of the ones that she wrote that they really kind of talked about and see if I'm just wondering if I would have watched them at the time and been like something about this is suss or something. I don't know. Let us know subscribers if that's a project that you want us to underdick. I think we could go down about a thousand Elizabeth Finch rabbit holes. So if you guys have the appetite, just let us know. It's fun for us when we get to watch TV. I mean, That's like fun watching, right? Exactly.

Yeah, that's fun TV watching. So, you know, around this time, and it was very interesting, like, having this be, you know, so relatively recent, but like just really remembering all of these, you know, movements and just being in a very different timeline than we are now. So this was, you know, around the time that the Me Too movement started. And so, you know, she then starts claiming that she had been sexually harassed on the set of vampire diaries. I think she also wrote about that as well, did she not? I think it came into, I think everything came into the story somewhere along the way. This one was back more to her time on Vampire Diaries, but it sounds like it's something that she did continue to hold fast to even as we get further into the story.

This piece, she never, she never wavered and said that, you know, there was a director or a producer that, you know, harassed. her. But the thing is, I think there's, it sounds like from other writers on the show who actually went out and questioned her and asked her about these things, that there was a lot of, like, I don't know. I don't want to discount that this happened. But again, it's just like when the pattern of things add up. But it sounds like some of the writers and people that worked with her had questions about that being true as well. Yeah. And she never named the person. And now, also to put a caveat there, that there's lots of reasons that you wouldn't necessarily name a person

in this context, right, because you're afraid of retribution or blowback from someone that you're legitimately scared of. And I think the claims of both sexual harassment and sexual assault that come up in these cases, which they almost always do. I mean, they are so ubiquitous. This is something we struggle with so much on the show because you don't want to just assume that someone is lying just because they've lied about other things, right? Because, unfortunately sexual harassment in Hollywood, sexual assault, you know, broadly is very common. That's what the whole Me Too movement was about. And so that's not to say that it could not have happened to one of these folks that is claiming it. But it's so frequently, you know, the nature of the accusation is not corroborable or like verifiable or, you know, it just seems sort of suspect on its face. And then you have to put it in the context of someone who would lie about something. really serious for attention. And once someone's proven that they would do that, you know, I think it is, it is appropriate to see that with a certain level of, uh, suspicion. And then,

but also you never sort of just want to blanket say anything. I know. I never want to, I get this gut feeling where I'm like, oh, I don't want to take that lightly because I know that could have also maybe been a trigger for other things later if that did happen to her. I don't know. I think I, so I do agree with you. I think we, we do this every time. But it's, it is it's still that it's being a woman it's being um having been present during all the me too stuff and knowing how much is going on so having this empathy for these people and these women and then at the same time questioning her her version of the story but it's kind of i tell my kids like the never cry wolf right you i mean it goes back to that that's like a fable right or

something like the idea that right if you if you it's you have to be careful because if you are constantly saying something what about the one time they yell from the other room you know he got hurt and i'm like oh my god like hurt hurt hurt or hurt hurt you know what i mean and i have to run out and look but it's like what about the one time that it really is so it's you you know you have to there is something about taking things with a grain of salt at some point when it just lines up time and time and time again. And I'm sure there's one that's true somewhere in there, but how do you, how do you suss it out, I guess? Right. And, you know, also I think it's really worth mentioning and examining and part of what this sort of the overall picture of the harm that these

people can cause is much like, you know, they can throw doubt on certain diagnoses or certain, you know, things that are very real, but that they are faking. The same thing, right? I mean, lying about, you know, if this was a lie, if this was a fabrication. Again, we don't, doesn't sound like we know one way or the other, but certainly it was suspect. You know, that does an incredible amount of damage to other victims of that and other survivors who, you know, at this time in large numbers were coming forward with their stories. And, you know, I really remember, you know, from there was these two stories that were, and I don't know if those are sort of like in the same general time period but the um you know duke lacrosse case

and then the um and then the case uh the uva case the jacky case which was covered by rolling stone and those stories were later found to be not credible and full of holes and like bad reporting and like all kinds of things and that then unfortunately you know that's obviously sad for everyone involved that's sad for the people who were you know like for the you know boys team lacrosse team that was that was wrongly accused and for you know the the people involved in the jackie story but it also you know then really gives a lot of um gives a lot of uh of uh of credence to this idea that like that oh like women are just lying or they would just come or they would just do that for attention and like yeah the reality is a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny percentage

of people would ever do that for attention but they exist you know and i i've asked mike weber um you know, is a frequent contributor, like about this question of like, well, when people lie about sexual assault, like what are the sort of circumstances when that happens? Like, is it like how it is very rare? And what you would look for is, you know, I mean, number one, like, because I think it's so tricky with sexual assault because they're like, there are often other circumstances where people don't have perfect memories or couldn't corroborate the details. And it did happen. Right. So that, That alone is not like lack of hard evidence is not, again, that may make it not criminally prosecutable.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But so I think that's where it gets so tricky. But he says, like, you know, if you're looking for, you would look for sort of a history of someone lying purposefully to hurt other people or purposely for sort of like personal gain and attention. So I think this pattern of like being a pathological liar, like that's when it usually comes up or someone like is doing it in a custody dispute or, you know, like that kind of thing. So I think, you know, it is important, like we sort of can't pretend that these, that false accusations never happen because we need to be aware of the circumstances under which they do happen so that we can sort those out from the vast majority of other instances where people would never have anything to gain by making a false accusation.

And I think it's actually like that is the framework that, you know, we are forever in search of a case of a genuine false allegation. of much house in my proxy. We have not found one yet. And it's still one of my bones of contention because I think I just can't say enough that reporting child abuse is a hard decision every single time. It is never with a wanton disregard for all these things that we do it. It is not. There is no money in our pockets. There is no benefit to the hospital for keeping these kids. I promise you, it is not financial gain. It is a hard decision as is separating a child unless you know it could save their life or their well-being or whatever. And so in these cases as well, it's like, it's, I will never

judge someone like based on, you know, their recollection or their reporting of something like that. And even in this case, that was the part that I almost just kind of breezed over and was like, I really hope that didn't happen to her. But I'm going to focus more on these other parts that you could kind of prove or no didn't happen and leave that as if it happens, I feel for her. I hope she's, you know, processing that or whatever happened. But it's all the other ones that really just built the, that one aside, everything else still built the tower, I guess, in my mind as far as my concerns. Yes. Yes. Me too. And I think, um, oh, me too. Good job. Oh, sorry. Yeah. I mean, I think like, also it's just like this is, this is very interesting.

I think, like, Elizabeth Finch is around our same age. So it's like, there's a lot of, like, shared cultural context. Oh, yeah. I also just think, like, you know, like when I was in my 20s, working in New York, I mean, sexual harassment was just like of the air we breathe. You know, it's just like, it was like really cannot emphasize enough. Hopefully this is not quite this. I don't think it's as bad after Me Too.

I mean, I don't think it's done all the things that we hoped that Me Too would do. But I do feel like people are at least a little, who knows now in Trump's America, but people are like a little bit. more aware of this and like just like oh yeah like you just really can't like you know say things like like that in a work environment um but i mean it's just like oh my god like every myself and every girl I know just got like constantly sexually harassed at work and I didn't think there was not even that many men around like I worked in book publishing so for the most part it was like a safe and I worked in a hospital and I can tell you it happened and that's sad to say but I mean restaurants are just like a sexual harassment factory like when you're a young woman so it's

just like, you know, it's like, yeah, that all stuff was like all really, yeah, it was all really pervasive. And I'm glad that there has been pushed back. And also like, yeah, I think this is, this is just a tough one to like, it can be also like quite tough to quantify exactly like what is, you know, anyway, whatever. That's like a whole other rabbit hole. But, but yeah. So this is like during this period, you know, we're like 2018 now. She just really like seems to have. And she's writing a lot of personal essays during this time for like women's magazines and stuff, which just makes me jealous because I was always wanting to write for some of these email notes. So, you know, I just feel a little bit salty about that. Just kidding. This is me when I was younger. I wanted to be a magazine journalist. Anyway, you know, where she sort of has a connection to every major thing that's going on. So she, you know, has the sexual harassment claim during me too. And then, you know, there's a big conversation. in 2018 because of this, like, unfortunately successful rollback of reproductive rights. There's a lot of conversation about people being, you know, more forthright about their adopt.

This shout your abortion movement, which I could be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, feel free. But I think we started by Lindy West, who's a Seattle writer, who I really admire. Sounds right to me. Yeah. And so then she discloses that she had an abortion because of her cancer treatment, which is another really strong. parallel to Hope Ybarra, who, you know, said that she lost a pregnancy, lost a twin pregnancy because of treatment chemotherapy that she was undergoing for her ewing sarcoma, which of course

never existed, nor did those babies. So I think immediately that was one where I was like, hmm. Oh, that part got me. Again, it's like knowing, I think we all know humans that have gone through real similar situations, you know what I mean, in life and whatever. And so it just, when you line them out, it just starts getting kind of, you get very frustrated. But her whole, you know, if I continued chemo, it would harm the baby. If I stopped the chemo, my cancer would get worse. I had the ultimate, you know, decision to make that, like lose, lose. There's no way, you know, and I had to make this terrible decision, you know, to have an abortion.

And again, it was not just the story. It was the worst version of the story that I didn't want to, but I had to. to. And her quote that I wrote down was, I just wish people would know, like, I'm more than the tumor in my spine. I'm more than what my uterus can or can't do. Like, so stealing like the woman piece of that. And I know people who have lost fertility because of, you know, cancer treatments or whatever things have occurred. And it's just when you, just when you've lived enough life, you've seen it really happen. And so when you start to hear these, you just can't help but get, you know, get angry.

And that quote just, I was like, who, she just, she just says all the right things to make people feel, you know, sympathy for her. And it's a real, like, there's a really, like, melodramatic tone to it. And it's always like this framing, which I feel like, again, feels very familiar to me of, like, I don't want sympathy. Like, I am going to write a 2,000-word essay on this and talk about it all the time on social media, but it's not because I want sympathy. And sort of like, it gets couched in this.

language of like I'm raising awareness or I'm part of like this movement and like to say like that all can be extremely valuable and like a lot of women were speaking up about a lot of really hard things during this time and it was getting that it did I mean I do think again like Me Too movement all the stuff was not perfect did not quite have the you know effects that we would all hope was not perfectly executed was not perfectly inclusive all that is true and like I do think it was a shift in society having been a young person before it and you know that's really to be admired, and also people just have the right to tell their personal stories. But again, sort of just like using that the way she did.

And also, I mean, like, and I can't, no, listen, with the recognition that sexuality can be fluid, that it can be encompassing of many different, you know, eras and partners over time, I wish they had sort of explored, like, okay, did she have any relationships with men that could have resulted in a pregnancy because it's just another you know again it's not to say that like obviously again with all of those caveats but like it's another piece of the story that sort of makes it less likely um to be true and so or cast sort of some additional questions on um on on the on that piece of the story um so then the next big thing that we have her sort of uh claiming to be a piece of is this tree of life.

synagogue that happened a shooting. There's a horrific hate crime far right shooter that shot up a synagogue killed a number of people. It was absolutely horrific event in October of 2018. So, Baxia, can you tell us what we learn about her claims as to her connection to this event? So this actually did happen close to where I grew up. And so I did hear about it kind of firsthand from people that lived in the area or people that either were you know have been first responders those kind of things or just again when it happens it's like when pulse i say that word wrong people make fun of me um the pulse shooting that happened here in orlando like no i didn't know anyone that was there that night but i know people who go to that club and it's across the street from

the bagel shop where i take my kids so there is something to be said like when when something happens in your hometown or in your town like it does it hits different there's something more real about it when people you know can send you pictures because they live down the street or whatever but in this case she basically told the people at grace that you know quotes such as you know cleaning up what was left of my friend so not just that it happened but it happened to a friend and not just that that she was physically the one there at the synagogue cleaning up the bodies um so not just she maybe knew someone not just it was in her hometown not just whatever it was that she was at the epicenter she was cleaning up you know the bodies and that that must have been so traumatic

and people saying it's just like when the people are saying and all i could think was man finch just can't catch a break you know and it's yes i get that i we've all known people who get in a rut where you're just like gosh darn it like can something just go right but this i mean this just started to be like everything that happened that year also happened to her and happened worse. Yeah, it's just her putting herself at the center of every major conversation that's happening in the headlines. It's like she, yeah, I mean, it's, and the sort of, again, I think it's one of those things where, you know, she like is saying these things. Okay, I'm in this synagogue cleaning up body parts like if you if you are looking at it from a very sort of like

just in the context of this story where we know her to be dishonest and like also just like looking at it from a sort of dispassionate lens because she was tweeting about it and stuff so it's like you just saw one of those tweets you might be like that's weird like why is a writer from california being called upon like why would they even let her in there like it's you know like doesn't doesn't make any sense right but it's just not again like if someone is telling you this in the context of as a tragedy you don't necessarily look at it that way and people like because people have compassion and empathy for others they just sort of go oh my god that's so horrible and like don't necessarily pick it it apart or maybe they sort of file it away as like that seems like a weird thing maybe she's

kind of exaggerating a little bit but there is this is basically true and they're just sort of like you know exaggerating a detail or two um so that will definitely come back around yeah um and uh then And we also speak to a re-hear from a former colleague Kylie Reid about a story that she confided to Finch about that then ended up being the basis for an episode of Grays called Silent All These Years. And again, this was very much during the Me Too era, the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, kind of this like the longer tale, I would say, of the like sort of Me Too era. And I have thoughts about this as a writer. Bex, how did this piece of the story kind of strike you? I liked Kylie personally. I thought she was, she's a right bit of sassy.

Like you could tell when they were asking her about pre all of this happening, she was like, yeah, I really liked Finch. But like you could tell like it was like she couldn't wait to finally say like what she kind of really thought, which I'm sure it's hard to put yourself back. in that spot where you did believe in everything, it's hard to go back to that. Like, once you've seen the truth, it's hard to remember what that felt like to trust her and believe her. So I did feel for Kylie.

And I think I can't imagine knowing I have a friend who is a writer of any sort. I mean, you're a writer, right? But if I told you something in confidence about my life, something traumatic, something I went through, and you just went on to write about it in a hypothetical sense, and then take the credit for the story and then get accolades for that story. And in this case, Kylie was also a writer. So she could have written her own story. Right? If she wanted to write about it, she could have written about it. It was like, and then it doesn't even sound like Finch came to her and said, hey, I know you told me this. Like I am thinking about writing an episode

about this, right? No, it was like when it came into the writer's room, Kylie's like, hold on a second. And, you know, the story of Kylie is that, according to her, she found out in this kind of time period that, sadly, her biological father, who she'd never known, was actually her mother's rapist. And there are stories like this, especially now in the ancestry DNA age, where we can find out things that parents may be kept from children their whole lives, when they realized they could go out and do their DNA and find out it was not true. I think it's for parents are being more honest with their kids and kind of telling them the story. And then this is where the character Joe on Grey's Anatomy really starts playing a big role

as almost this alter ego of Finch or like that she feels very connected to this character. And as a result, the stories of Joe seemed to start very much paralleling the stories of Finch. The first being that Joe finds out that she was conceived of during. the act of a rape against her mother. And then that this episode became very, very, like, highly, like I said, highly accolated. There were a lot of people talking about it. And it's probably one of those episodes. To be honest, I don't remember when it came out, which surprises me. I'm surprised it didn't just, like, come up on my feet. But it sounds like something that people were very moved by. And I don't know if you want to tell about like the picture in the, like

a picture they took with all the staff. Yeah. So this, I think this came. out around the Brett Kavanaugh hearings in 2018, which I think it was all that same year. Yeah, I really remember this time because I was just a side anecdote, but if the Patreon and subscriber feeds are not for that, then what are they for? I remember this very vividly because I was listening to the Brett Kavanaugh hearings on NPR while I was driving down to go walk my dog And I was one billion months pregnant because I was right before I had my daughter, Fiona, pregnant with my first. And I was just like in so much rage about it. And then like that was the day that an old man decided to walk up to me and rub my belly and say, wow, you look as big as a house.

And I mean, I think that this senior citizen is lucky that I just only yelled at him because boy did I. But anyway, that is again aside. It's crazy how you can remember those things though, right? where you were exactly when something happened totally is a really and like the you know so it's like christine blasey ford was was testifying and incredibly brave um you know and so this was like a moment of of sort of it was this a real like national moment right where it was like we were watching someone like so many of us really admired her um for doing that and then it was so heartbreaking that he got confirmed anyway and it didn't seem to sort of slow anything down and this was like our

you know, this is this sort of early chapters of a moral crisis that we are now like majorly in the throes of. But there was a lot of conversation about these, you know, how we should sort of like look at these incidents and all that stuff. So I think this came out around that time, which was why it hit so hard. And so, yeah, they had this scene. And I, again, because I don't know what happened in the episode, I don't know exactly with the context. But they're wheeling, they're wheeling, you know, patient down the hallway. Because then they have like a rape in the hospital or something where there's like a rape pregnancy in the hospital. I think that's really good for a patient.

And that's why it all comes out. That's why it all comes out. And so they're wheeling this patient down the hall. And in this scene, they get kind of like all of the female members of the cast and all of the female members of the writing staff lined up, lined up along the hallway that they're wheeling her on. And then they have several, you know, people in scrubs pushing the gurney down the hallway. Elizabeth Finch is in scrubs and she gets a cameo and she's like pushing the um you know pushing

the bed down the hallway and then they like pan to like poor Kylie you know who's like on the just like standing just like kind of with the ranks and like doesn't get the doesn't get the sort of like central central casting so I have to say with this story I do feel I liked Kylie as well um and I think she probably at some point kind of looked because I think she's a bit younger so she probably looked Elizabeth Finch as someone she admired at one point. And I think that that would feel horrible to have your personal experience, like, you know, feel like it had been exploited in that way. However, I will say, like, now, obviously that exact thing is not something that I would ever do.

But, I mean, there is kind of a, like, bad art friend, if maybe probably the only one who maybe remembers this scandal. but if anyone else is like big into like publishing scandals which you know are very like intramural you know there's this article uh you there's like this in the new york times like years ago about this like again very like writerly nerdy sort of debacle where like someone had told a story about um about uh donating a kidney and then they told their friend that and then their friend worked it into their short story and like made the person sound really obnoxious and then it was like this whole debacle of like she tried to sue her and it was like a whole thing and it was like it was kind of like okay well we do have to sort of distinguish between I think what this made me think of is like we do have to distinguish between like that's bad behavior and like you you could argue I think that that's that's pretty unethical but it's like that's just kind of like being a shitty friend right like it's not necessarily like that is something that writers especially like you know people in this very competitive environment of like a writer's room i mean writers rooms like i've never

been in one but i have friends talked of you know i've have friends that have written for television i mean this is a savage environment you know like it is a very very competitive so i think like that kind of qualifies as something that like someone who was nowhere near as extreme as elizabeth finch like probably also may have done so it's not to excuse it but i think this was just like this was like in a slightly different category for me um and i i gather that the actress and finch have maintained that this was about the Brett Kavanaugh hearing, you know, sort of inspired by the Brett Kavanaugh hearings rather than being based on Kylie's story. But I think like, I mean, I believe Kylie that she told her that. And I believe that Elizabeth Finch stole that and put it in her

writing and used it and exploited it. Again, pattern. Pattern of. Right. Again, because of the pattern, right? But I just, this just did strike me as like a little bit, like, not on the level of like her other wrongdoings. And. But I think it started a precedent, right, of. kind of this was like the first time she kind of at least started to work things in that were there, you know what I mean? And then the pattern starts happening more and more where things are happening to her that then are paralleling into. Yeah, I think it just, I think the reason it sort of struck me as a little bit funny what the thing about it that struck me is a little bit funny is the idea of like the people who, you know, like the Vanity Fair writer or like the people

who are, you know, at Peacock making this documentary sort of acting pearl clutchy about that when I'm just like, okay, this is something that everyone knows, like, happens in writer's all the time. So, like, don't be friend writers. Yeah. No, you know, and the, yes, and the, uh, the lesson is don't be friends with any writers. No, I was kidding. Um, but yeah.

So, um, but, you know, writers rooms, like Hollywood writers rooms in particular, I, I would say. other writers are obviously guilty of it as well, but, uh, but yeah. I still feel like you go to your friend and you're like, hey, I'm writing this episode. I don't want it to bring out your trauma or something, right? I wouldn't. do it. Like, just to be clear, I'm not excusing it or saying, like, I'm just saying that, like, it's probably a lot of writers, like, in Hollywood in that. Or using some pieces. Might do something

like that. Yeah. You know, again, not to say it wasn't a shitty, not to say that Kylie Reid did not, yeah, appreciate, you know, as a friend, like someone being, you know, more sensitive than that, obviously. Hopefully, I don't get canceled for that take. Anyway, so then around this time, again, as you're saying, she's sort of like merging with this proxy character, Joe, on the show. And then Finch in 2019 checks herself into PTSD treatment. And I believe the tree of life shooting that she was allegedly present for or involved with was the trigger for this PTSD. That is her reasoning to the show for why she's seeking treatment. Right.

And it was in Tucson, Arizona. It's called Sierra Tucson. And basically when she went there, one of the little ironic pieces is she went by Joe when she was there, which is the name of the character on Grey's Anatomy. So again, there's this weird kind of connection. And I'm sure that's, I mean, I don't know. Like you said, I've never been in a writer's room. But I'm guessing, like, even when I watch shows, there's always the one character that I'm like, oh, she's kind of like me. You know what I mean? Or someone that you would, I can still remember. Do you remember life goes on the show with The little boy with Down syndrome, the brother with Down syndrome, and Patty LaPone. Corky? Yeah, Corky. Yeah. Okay, yes, I do. I do.

So Becca was Kelly Martin. And her name was Becca. And she looked like me back in the day, like glasses, the short hair, all that stuff. So I just remember connecting with her. So I can see where, like, there's going to be a character that you feel more strongly, probably attached to. However, like using the name in the, like the facility also. so just a little odd. And then again, this is where she meets Jen Byer, which, who, I don't know.

I just want to put out there that I just, I feel I felt every emotion she felt when she talked, she was so genuine and real to me. And someone who, like, is probably way too much of an empath, like to some fault probably in my life over time of, like, taking on people's. but like just her body language and how how she would i don't know i could very much feel this and i know this was still very new when she came out and spoke about it so i give her a lot of credit she's been through a lot um and she was very just right off the bat i had a lot of empathy for her and i didn't even yet know how much of a victim she was going to be yeah i mean the gen jen i think

was like, A, the strongest source because she just was, you know, so close to finch for so much of this and probably the most, her and her children are the most impacted. And yeah, I really did find her like to be very, to be very seemingly like just credible and empathetic. And again, I have not done any due diligence on her. So I don't, you know, but there's, she has a really complicated backstory. It would be interesting to look into it. But she certainly comes across. And I know she's doing well. I think the last I looked like the, she and her kids are doing very well. So that's what I only hope will continue to me. So we can we can hold on to that as we kind of go through all of this. Right. Horrible stuff.

Yeah. And so she checks in and calls herself Joe. I mean, yes, I think that does kind of fall under the category of like, you know, like weird, artsy weirdo shit that someone also might do if they were not this person. But, I mean, heck, I have a pseudonym. I shouldn't probably talk. But, you know. Talk to me. Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, but I also think like part of actually what struck me about that more than just like the sort of the using the fake character's name, you know, is like this idea that, yeah, because I think as a writer, like I can understand like really identifying with a character you're writing about. They get very in your head. Like that makes sense. To me, it's really the self-aggrandizement piece of like, oh, I have to use an alias because I am so famous that, you know, know, everyone will just, like, want to get close to me or, like, because that was what she's saying, it was like, my privacy. And I'm just like, people don't know television writers. Right. You know, like, you're not, and I'm guessing there wasn't internet access. I mean, yeah, it's just like, you're not, like, it's just not that, it's just like not that serious. I mean, that would be like, yeah, the, it just, it's just that, the self-aggrandizing piece, I think was the, was the thing. And I'm just like, do you? Or are you just like looking

for another reason to lie? So she starts, uh, around this time, um, um, This also story comes about, her telling her friend Aurora, I believe, is the person we hear this from, Elizabeth starts claiming that her older brother, Eric, was abusive. And the people I wanted to hear from the most that they do not talk to are the brother and the parents who also understandably maybe have no interest in being public about this experience. but I certainly would be curious to know what their thoughts are. I think he's a physician. He is. Yeah, he's a doctor. Yeah.

And yeah, so, I mean, that whole thing. And again, you know, like these allegations about abuse and childhood, that is another really tricky piece of these cases because this something people are always asking us about, like, oh, does this person have, like, what kind of like looking for the reason of like, what made this person this way? And they look at, you know, oh, well, were they abused as a kid? And it's like, well, they started saying they were once they were really on this trajectory of terrible behavior.

And of course, some of them were, like some perpetrators are abuse. Unfortunately, child abuse is common. But, yeah, it's also something that like every offender at some point says that they were abused. So it's, again, just difficult to get to the bottom of. But yeah, so she checks in and as you said, she meets Jennifer. And so tell us a little bit about Jennifer's backstory as we know it at this point. point because it is so harrowing. And just, yes, Jen's story is just so heartbreaking. And this stuff has been, I believe, you know, fact-checked. So this story is very much real and very,

very traumatic watching it. So, I mean, the very basics is that Jen is a mother to five beautiful children. And the father is this guy Brendan, who was both physically and mentally abusive to Jennifer and to the point that she had a restraining order against him. And again, the shake in her voice and the sound of how she talked to me, I just, I, that is somebody who's been abused out. It was just so telling that it still affects her despite how strong she is now and how how well she's doing. But basically to the point that she was having, you know, dissociative episodes and developing

her own extreme psychiatric issues because of all this trauma. And she ends up losing her children or her children going to state custody. And so this is kind of part it sounds like maybe of like a mandated where she had to get help so she could get her kids back. But she also wanted the help because she wanted to get her kids back. So she was going and truly trying to, you know, process what happened to her and get to a point. Like she even felt unsafe taking care of her. kids at this point, which was so sad.

Like, she was like, yes, people are saying, I'm not safe to take care of my kids, but like, I don't know if I'm safe. Like, I was in such a bad place, you know, and that she wanted to be better because she loves these kids above everything. And she goes to a place where she thinks she will be safe, where she will be helped, which it sounds like the other people around her very much were helping her. And then to meet someone like Joe slash Elizabeth Finch, who. Again, the story of the brother and the abuse came up after Jen started telling her story

about the abuse she suffered at the hands of Brendan. And so it was that taking a story, making it your own, but then also making it very dramatic. And then she continued that story then with the people she knew back home and, you know, used it kind of for sympathy, whatever, back at home too. mirroring her. And yeah, this whole story about Jen, and again, she doesn't get into a ton of specifics, but it really, it made me sad for so many reasons because, you know, we do talk about these other circumstances where mothers or just parents, like mothers can harm their children because they are having mental health issues and, you know, being so deliberate to

distinguish something like postpartum psychosis or a dissociative episode as things that can be, can be harmful to kids, right? Obviously, like if you have a parent that's having that struggle with their mental health, you may not for a period of time be a safe caretaker for your kids. And that's really heartbreaking, but that those should be treated so differently than, you know, someone who's engaging in munchausen by proxy behaviors because it is not that, right? It is not someone suffering from delusions or dissociating or, you know, doing something where it's like genuinely like, oh, that's a mental health issue and that woman needs health and support. And especially given that those dissociative episodes appear to be tied to the abuse to a suffering at the hands of her very scary sounding ex-husband, you know, who is threatening her, who's stalking her. And, like, that is something that happens.

And we talk about disassociation on the disassociation on the show from time to time because it comes up a lot for survivors, right? That is a very, like, well-known response to extreme trauma. So I think you just, she's so sympathetic and it's just horrible to think about her coming for help and then ending up finding Elizabeth slash Joe. And it was interesting, Joe does not during this time bring up her alleged cancer to the patients, her fellow patients there. Right. And that's striking too. It's interesting. It's come up in these cases before, like where Maya Kualsi went to the one doctor and talked about everything except the fact that she'd just gotten back from Mexico, was put in a coma with a 50% chance of death, like didn't even mention that as part of the history. And it was almost like, it depends which

version of the story they're telling. But that's very, it's like the people kind of found out after the fact people that were in the therapy with her like wait what she was also a cancer like they didn't it didn't even and you would think in the course of therapy group therapy talking about your story and PTSD from one thing or another that it would have it would have come up and people that were there who came out who again I give credit to them for coming out and speaking out but said that she she actually didn't talk that much which is interesting but she very much listened And she very much asked questions. And so is that a person who cares and who just, who wants to be there for someone and

listen to their story? Or is it someone who's getting fodder for their future endeavors? Material. Yeah. And I think like that is an interesting piece of it too because I think a lot about the way that these, that, you know, people who engage in these behaviors mirror, like mirror people who are really empathetic, right? That they seem like very caring and that they are like, seem like, oh, wow, that person really is such a good listener or whatever. But like, it's always opportunistic,

right? It's always as a means to like, how can I, like, what's interesting about this that I can kind of pick, pick for myself. Okay, so we will wrap up part one here at the end of our first episode. And we will be back with more. So again, let us know your thoughts on this story. Let us know if you want us to do a deeper dive on pieces of it. I do think this is a really interesting one. So thank you so much for being here, Bex. Thank you.