Nobody Should Believe Me - PRETEND: The Gypsy Rose Obsession, Part 2

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Her critics say Gypsy Rose Blanchard can't keep her story straight. So Javier sat down with her for almost three hours and asked about all of it. The pills through the feeding tube. The video where she tells Nick Godejohn she'd been hiding that she could walk since she was seven. And the Demona videos she has never addressed in front of a reporter. *** Listen to PRETEND: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend/id1245307962 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and nobody should believe me is taking just the teeniest, tiniest, tiniest little break at the moment while we gear up for a bunch of new things. We've got a mini-series coming. We have got a massive, mind-blowing new full season in the works. We're coming to YouTube. We're all over the place. But while we are off working on all of those things, I wanted to share the second in the Gypsy Rose Blanchard Obsession series from our friends over Pretend Pondon. As you know, if you listen to the first episode on our feed last week, Javier is doing a deep dive on the strange and deeply dedicated community of content creators and online sleuths who have devoted themselves to discrediting Gypsy Rose Blanchard's history of Munchausen by proxy abuse.

What Javier has found along the way is genuinely fascinating and illuminating. You'll hear me throughout the series, but Javier is still in the midst of reporting on all of this, so even he doesn't know where it ends. and I can tell you I will definitely be tuned in. We will be back next week with a brand new episode. And in the meantime, as always, if you want more, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon, and you will get access to our twice monthly subscriber exclusive show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours. This month we're talking about the podcast Love Trapped,

and we've got an episode coming up later this month on Maternal Instinct from Netflix, which was a very hotly requested one. As a subscriber, you'll also get binge drops for new series and seasons, as well as ad-free listening and access to the show's full archive. If monetary support is not an option, reading and reviewing the show, or telling a friend are also great ways to help us out. We appreciate you. We'll be right back with part two of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard obsession from pretend. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters.

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My team and I landed in New Orleans and drove straight to Gypsy Rose Blanchard's house. Well, almost straight. I stopped out of bakery first, picked up some bignets, a cafe O'Le, because why not, right? And I asked the bakery what they thought of their most famous neighbor. They see her at Walmart? Where was Gypsy Roe from?

I know she grew up around here, but... Is that like the local celebrity? Jipsy Rose Blanchard lives in a small town in Louisiana, less than 10,000 people. The kind of town where everyone knows everyone, everyone knows your business, and apparently everyone runs into Gypsy Rose Blanchard at Walmart. I flew down here to spend the day with Gypsy.

I wanted to see her in her element, where she lives, how she acts when the cameras aren't rolling. If this is all an act, surely I will see some cracks. In today's episode, I'm going to sit down with Gypsy and ask her the questions her critics say she refuses to answer. Every single one of them. I interviewed her for almost three hours straight, and I'm going to play you every single part of that conversation over the course of the series. But today, we are focusing on some of the biggest inconsistencies that have emerged since we all learned her story. The private videos, the text messages, the public records that the anti-Gypsy community has been picking apart for years. You're listening to The Gypsy Rose Obsession.

I'm Javier Leva, and this is probably. pretend. Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. Summer is the perfect time to change up your routine. Or if you're the parent of school-aged children like I am, just throw it out the window entirely. Bedtime routine, morning routine, who needs them? Why not just embrace the chaos and refresh your makeup routine instead with 100% vegan, cruelty-free makeup essentials from Thrive Cosmetics. Okay, so you know I love this brand. I am a die-hard fan of their vegan mascara, which comes in six shades and has over 40,000 five-star reviews. It makes your lashes look extra long by wrapping around each lash from root to tip, and it comes off with just warm water,

so no scrubbing and trashing your lashes. Another great product I'm reaching for this summer is Thrive's sheer strength hydrating lip tint, which I wear in muted rose, which is one of their most popular shades. This moisturizes your lips and gives them a pop of color without any stickiness. Another reason to love Thrive, with over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. And that's beauty with the purpose. We love it. So amplify your summer look with Thrive Cosmetics. Go to ThriveCosmetics.com slash nobody for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-I-C-S dot com slash nobody.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Summer is going by so fast, but not too fast for a wardrobe refresh. And I have two fun quince out in the wild stories for you. I was emailing with a doctor friend who's been on the show. And while we were not primarily discussing fashion, he told me that he was looking for some linen pants for his upcoming travel and did I sincerely recommend the brand quince that I was always talking about on the show. And I told him, yes, I do, Dr. Booze. I love quince. I love their linen pants in particular. My producer Mariah loves their linen pants. Quince linen for everyone. Also, I have talked about

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your every day. Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. That's QINCE.com slash believe for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the I pulled up to Gypsy's house and even before she came out to greet me, I had the answer to my first question. Is Gypsy Rose Blanchard getting rich off of her mother's murder? Well, if she is, she did not splurge on a mansion. She rents a tiny little unit in a modest forplex. Nothing fancy.

I gotta say, meeting her in person was a little awkward for both of us. The plan was to drive to my Airbnb to do the interview, 30 minutes deep into the bayou. We made small talk as we drove deeper and deeper into the swamp. We passed Armadillo Roadkill, past a dead baby gator on the side of the road. At one point, the water was actually lapping over the road. But it was a beautiful drive. Shrimp boats, stacks and stacks of crayfish traps.

She must have been wondering, where the heck is this guy taking me? We finally got to the Airbnb. I turned on the camera and started recording because, honestly, there was no time to waste. I handed Gypsy my phone and asked her to read the very first line of her memoir, My Time to Stand. Dedy Blanchard was 24 years old. She gave life to me. When I was nearly 24 years old, I took life from her. When did that hit you?

That connection. That was hard to kind of piece together because for a long time I didn't know my real age. And so when you're looking back and you're writing your own story and you're putting together a memoir, these things kind of hit you as you're just kind of learning about your life. And it's kind of like, wow, my mom was 24 when she had me. And then when I was 24, it's when the crime happened. That's just such an important marker in your life, you know? And one of the things that I thought was interesting in this book that added a lot more color to the story was your explanation for your breaking point.

You spell it out very clearly in the book. In the first couple pages that your breaking point was your mom wanting you to get throat surgery. Yeah, I know the surgery. So tell me about that. It was in 2015. and by that time I had had multiple surgeries and I was on multiple different medications. And I hit a point that it's like, okay, another upcoming surgery procedure. And then I start thinking to myself, like, is this the rest of my life?

Is this, you know, I've already been cut up. I have scars on my neck from a previous surgery. It's kind of like at what end? And I started thinking about that. And I started thinking about, you know, if it keeps on like this, like how much more physically am I going to succumb to what my mother was doing? Or is it always going to be this way? Is there going to be something that stops it?

And there was no end in sight at that time. To be clear, the procedure that Gypsy is describing is called the laryngoscopy. It doesn't require any cutting. It's essentially a small camera on a tube that passes through the nose or the mouth to look at the voice box. No incisions. By 2015, Gypsy was already 23 years old and had already been through more surgeries than most people experienced in their lifetime. So when a doctor started talking about going anywhere near her throat, she said it didn't matter what the procedure was called. For her, that was the final straw.

And so there was that part of me that just felt so. desperate to just like end it. And it was a big fear. Like that procedure had struck a fear in me that like what happens if my voice is taken? So I talk about that in my book, it's kind of like, okay, they're going to be working around my vocal cords. And it's like, I don't want to lose my voice. Did your mom have a problem with their voice? My voice is a lot of people make fun of me, but this is my voice. It is a higher pitch. But it was all surrounding. around, you know, the swallowing, the breathing, everything kind of was centered around the voice area and so the throat area.

But you've been criticized. I mean, people say that this is not, like you said, this is not your real voice. They make fun of you. I've seen videos that people make you front of you. I just wonder, how do you feel about your voice? I think I sound like my great, great grandmother. I like my points, you know. It changes based on emotion, so sometimes I'll be like, which is Jewish.

But, you know, I think that's just who I am. It's part of who I am. I mean, and that's, yeah, you can't help. Yeah, it's who I am. Yeah, yeah. And on top of that, you do have like a little bit of a southern accent, right? A little bit. It comes out more when I'm around my family.

Yeah, yeah. You see? It just came out. Yeah. Now, here's where it gets complicated because the narrative that we were all given was that D.D. made Gypsy sick. That Gypsy was the victim of one of the most extreme cases of Munchausen by proxy ever documented. But her critics disagree. They say Gypsy wasn't just a passive victim that she knew more than she let on.

At some point, Gypsy was playing along. One of the things in your book that I thought was really interesting was you went into a lot of detail about taking some of your mom's pain, like the toxicotin. And I found that really interesting, and even the fact that you would sometimes put it through your feeding through to get a high quicker. Yeah. When did that start? So I wouldn't say it started like right after my teeth started being extracted. So they had put me right after surgery, they put me on a medication called a rock set.

Mm-hmm. And it helped with the pain. But then after I started to heal, Then I think I was already addicted to it because it's like, okay, now I want that feeling again and again and again. And my mom was on pain medication because we were in a car accident in 2001, and it left her with a bad leg injury. She was prescribed Vicodin, and so I knew that that would give me probably the same feeling. And so I started taking her medication in the placement of that original medication. What age do you think?

That was probably 16, 17, 18, 19 throughout those years. And did your mom know? She knew some of it. She would, you know, crush up a Vicodin for me if I would say I'm in pain or, you know, could I have what we would call a cocktail? And it was a Vicodin and a X together and mix it up and then put it through my feeding too. So there would be sometimes I would ask. ask her for a cocktail, and then it was other times that I went behind her back and took her

medication. So let's get into it. This episode is all about inconsistencies. Jipsy's critics say that she's an unreliable narrator because she can never keep her stories straight. Something as simple as did you go to school has spawned so many different answers. Here's a compilation put together by a content creator on TikTok. Growing up, like I missed out on all those like milestone moments. But it's like going to kindergarten and now... I attended school for one year. Kindergarten.

And how far did you go in school? Um, I got the second grade. Remember going to school? I've never been to school. Never got to go to kindergarten? No, sir. Four different answers to the same question. I would imagine that your childhood could be a blur at moments, right?

Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about like the education that you do? did get. Right. Okay. So by my memory, I didn't attend any kind of formal education. Now, when we were writing my memoir, other family members were interviewed, and their accounts of what happened were taken into account. So per my, one of my aunts account, is that I did go to kindergarten, but then no formal education after kindergarten. So there has been some discrepancies about like how far into the school system. Exactly.

And it's just my memory versus the memory. Do you have any memory of like the actual? I don't have any memory of like going anywhere that was like a school type of thing. She changes her story every other time she talks. That's Allora Flowers, co-host of Into the Weeds, a podcast that she runs with her mother, Amber Deats. Their work on the Gypsy Rose case is what put them on the map. And these ladies have done their homework. When the HBO documentary came out, Gypsy's story felt settled.

She was a victim of medical child abuse, and as a result, she had her abuser killed. That was a story, and for a while, most of the story. of us didn't even question it. What nobody anticipated was that after Gypsy walked out of prison and back into the spotlight, a mountain of private videos, text messages, and public record would resurface and put her entire life story into question. People have called some of these FOIA videos the Gypsyen files, and it's kind of become a meme online. The gypsyen files have taken over social media, and a question I kept asking myself is, like, why are there hundreds of videos that are just getting leaked now, post-Gy-Gy getting out of prison, where she's legitimately in drag.

Like, what are these? When we come back from the break, we are going to dive into the Gypsy Files. Summer is the perfect time to change up your routine. Or, if you're the parent of school-aged children like I am, just throw it out the window entirely. Bedtime routine, morning routine, who needs them? Why not just embrace the chaos and refresh your makeup routine instead, with 100% vegan cruelty-free makeup essentials from Thrive Cosmetics. Okay, so you know I love this brand. I am a die-hard fan of their vegan tubing mascara, which comes in six shades and has over 40,000,

five-star reviews. It makes your lashes look extra long by wrapping around each lash from root to tip, and it comes off with just warm water, so no scrubbing and trashing your lashes. Another great product I'm reaching for this summer is Thrive's sheer strength hydrating lip tint, which I wear in muted rose, which is one of their most popular shades. This moisturizes your lips and gives them a pop of color without any stickiness. Another reason to love Thrive, with over $150 million in product and cash donations to 600-plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact, and that's beauty with the purpose. We love it.

So amplify your summer look with Thrive Cosmetics. Go to ThriveCosmetics.com slash nobody for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash nobody. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. We just got back from a lovely week of family vacation, and while I am bummed, it's over, I am so happy to get back to my own bed and my own bedding, which recently got a major upgrade with a new set of Bowlin Branches' Signature Organic Cotton Sheets. I do not mess around with my sleep, and these sheets.

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the FOIA files. And you'll hear us use that term throughout the series. Technically, their Missouri public records obtained through state records request, but FOIA stuck, so we're going to go with it. The Into the Weeds podcast submitted a series of public records requests. And what came back would change everything. So tell me about the whole FOIA process, because this is like something that a lot of reporters do,

that work in newsrooms, not like amateur sleuths. And that's quite an investment. And just tell me, like, how did you get to that point where you wanted to invest that kind of money? And what did you think you were going to get when you, you know, because you don't know, you're paying all this money, but you don't know where you're even get, right? Yeah. So I'm a historian at heart.

I found out about Gypsy as I was about to do my podcast. So when I started interviewing. people and learning more about Gypsy, I was like, you know, I really want to know what happened. So I was like, okay, what do I do? What do I do? I did the FOIA. I got denied because I asked for the medical records. So I did another FOIA request and I got approved for that request. So I just wanted a repository of information for people to come to their own conclusions about what happened in the Gypsy Roe case. That was it. I had no further intentions other than to make this little project for myself. When the files finally arrived, Amber and Alora had more than a dozen private video exchanges

between Gypsy and Nick during their relationship. Surveillance footage showing Gypsy walking completely unassisted, full unedited police interrogation videos. Let's just put it this way. If Gypsy's case ever went to a full trial, this evidence could have seriously. damaged her defense. It took like a year and a half at least for us to get everything in. They even got their hands on Gypsy's prison emails.

There's thousands, thousands. She has a whole stuff. Four of these bad boys. Show the side of it so you can see how big it is. Oh my God. Those are small prints. Small teeny tiny prints.

And you have four of those? Yes. You see how small that is? That's all of her emails and there's four. of these that are that big. These files were groundbreaking because for the first time, we had videos that directly contradicted what many of us believed about this case. Have you ever seen the video and she's in a pink dress and she's showing Nick that she can walk

first time? Let's play a club. I wanted to show you a video special, something that had shown you before, mainly because I was scared to and I didn't really know how to. I'm going to show you. Gypsy takes a step back and twirls. But she says to Nick that she had been lying to her mother since she was about seven years old. It's not just you that I'm keeping it a secret from.

It's sort of like everybody who knows me. I don't even know how we got started. She said that she had an operation, had a seizure on the table, and she was paralyzed. But what they didn't know is that it was temporary paralysis and not permanent. At the time, I started to get my feeling back in my legs and I hadn't tried to walk then,

but I was too young and I just kept myself And throughout the years, I tried to tell my mom a few times. And I guess I was just afraid of her not loving me as much as she has if I couldn't walk. You know, I didn't want to make her sound or lose any love from her. I guess that's the reason why I kept a secret from her. And so I just kept it to myself.

out for a long time until 2011. Now, here's what her actual medical records say. During a neurological exam in 2009, Dr. Lepichon documented zero strength in her lower extremities and noted that her legs were weak and floppy. But during that same exam, while Gypsy said that she had no sensation below the waist, the doctor noted that she flinched when touched lightly on her legs. And from the age of seven until 2011, she was telling Nick that she was lying to her mom

and that she was afraid that her mom would love her less if she was able to walk. Mom's kind of in denial in a way. I don't really know because I guess it would be too hard to explain to all our friends and everything. And one thing, I never want to pose like a liar. And believe me, I would like for people, to know the truth, but being as it is, I would lose a lot of friends, I think.

The harder question is, what Didi knew and when? There are really only two possibilities. Either D.D. genuinely believed Gypsy was paralyzed and had no idea that her daughter could walk, or D.D. knew and used it and played along. Well, first of all, it's kind of a hoarder situation. So it would have been kind of hard to get a wheelchair around there, not saying it's It's impossible, but it's a little hard. Especially in her room, it's a total mess.

I don't know how she could have gotten onto her bed without some kind of help. It just doesn't look like a wheelchair's been around in there for quite some time. Alora is referring to the crime scene photos that were part of the public records release. And she's right. That house was not very wheelchair accessible. So she said that her mom, like, eventually caught her walking or something like that. She had to come clean. Sorry, it's been a minute.

But she's like, oh, you know, I had to come clean and she finally found out that I can walk. But I lied to my mom for years and years and years. And she didn't know that I could walk the whole time. Here's what we know from the people around her. Her uncle, Claude Petrie Jr. says that everyone in the family knew that Gypsy could walk, that he personally saw her running, jumping, playing on the trampoline when her mother wasn't looking. Another uncle, Evans Petrie, says that Gypsy could walk before she and Dede ever left Louisiana. I had that DD forced her into a wheelchair to scam the system.

And here's what makes all that even more significant. I have Gypsy's medical imaging results from that same period, MRIs of her thoracic, lumbar, and cervical spine from 2000 to 2001, and every single one came back normal. No abnormalities, no evidence of anything that would even explain paralysis. So I asked Gypsy to settle this mystery once and for all. I was curious about you're not being able to walk at home. So the only time that I would walk inside the home is when my mom wasn't there.

How about getting into bed? Getting into bed, I would get into bed from chair to bed. Like she would get you, like she would have to carry you? No, she didn't have to get me. I'd move myself. It was, you know, any time that I shown any kind of, hey, I don't need the chair. I don't, am not as sick as what you're saying. She would get very upset.

And then we would argue for days. And then this is where kind of like the manipulation came in is where she would like take her love away. We had animals. We had cats. And so she would like favor the cat over me and then just speak to me in such a mean way. and then be overly affectionate to the cat. So I felt like she was taking her love away from me any time that I would show independence

or any kind of voice to say, hey, this is not right. So it was like she was conditioning her. Gypsy told me in our interview that Dee Dee always knew she could walk and manipulated her into keeping it a secret. But that's not what she told Nick in that video. So after our interview, I emailed Gypsy asking her to clarify.

She says that the video has been widely misunderstood, that she wasn't confessing to hiding anything from her mother. She was just trying to explain to Nick that every time she tried to acknowledge that she could walk, D.D. would get angry and punish her. So she stopped trying. She said she gave D.D. what she wanted to avoid conflict. She calls it coercive control. Going along with Dee Dee's version of reality, not because she was complicit,

but because it was the only way to survive the day. And honestly, I can see that because when you think about it, it's actually a brilliant form of control. D.D. made Gypsy hold the secret. Carry the illusion. Make it seem like it was Gypsy's idea, not hers. These FOIA videos revealed a sight of Gypsy she did not want anyone in the world to see. They were private videos meant for Nick Godaghan and his eyes only.

And she was young. Can you imagine if the world got to watch your videos from your late teens and early 20s? I mean, I would be mortified. The videos that were recently released in December of this last year, the FOIA videos, those were between Nick and I through the course of our relationship. And a lot of the videos, they are what any couple does in a long-distance relationship. some is sexual, some is not. Those videos, the sexual ones,

should not have been released to the public. Green County Sheriff's Department was supposed to redact the nudity. They were supposed to redact anything that had sexual content in it. They did not. They sent a thumb drive with nudity, everything. Here's a Laura with the Into the Weeds podcast. Unfortunately, we were accidentally sent an explicit video or two. Three of them.

Three explicit videos. But the one that I'm thinking of is a 40-minute long video where she is completely nude in the middle of the living room. The phone's going off. You can hear like laundry in the background and everything. 40 whole minutes or more for her to just feel so comfortable to be in the middle of the living room. I don't do that. You know what I mean? naked and just doing all this stuff, like she's not going to get caught.

It's not a big deal. Or her even being in Dede's bed and being sexually explicit. And naked. And naked. In Dedy's bed. We will not show Gypsy's naked body. We have never sent that video around to anybody. We will not send that video around to anybody.

The Into the Weeds podcast never published the explicit videos. Unfortunately, other people have requested those same files, and it's already out there. Gypsy and Nick built an entire world together online, a fantasy world where Gypsy played a vampire slave named Demona, and Nick was her master. And in that world, they said things that pulled out of context and dropped on TikTok would alarm any parent, any social worker, anyone. See, Master, it is your one and only Demona, your slave forever and ever. Today, you won your anniversary. Gypsy is on camera wearing a big curly brown wig and a red dress. And what makes us so unique from other couples is that you and me have a vampire and human relationship.

Gypsy pulled out her phone and logged into an old Facebook account where she and Nick interacted. She showed me post after post of cartoon erotica. A lot of the role playing that you did with Nick, talk to me about that world because there's people that do role playing, and it's all fantasy, right? And it's centered around a macabre, and for some people, it's easy to understand the distinction,

and then for people who are not in that world, it just seems, like, very bizarre. Tell me about just the role playing that you had with him. Who introduced that? So Nick introduced it. So I actually, I logged into the old Facebook account. Do you want to see some of it? Yeah.

All right. So I don't know how, like, do you want to go into this stuff? And this is Emma Rose is... Emma Rose was my account that I was using at the time. So Nick would send me all of like these memes and so a lot... This was back in 2015. Yes, back in 2015. So he would send me these memes.

So a lot of daddy stuff and like bondage, right? So what does that say? She was his lifeline. He was her sanity and as a woman with like a choke collar. So like, I mean, he would send me all these and it goes on and on and on. So this was definitely, from what you're showing me, this is what he got off on. Yes, yes. This was his fetish.

Like, this was his thing. And I'm not kink shaming or anything like that. You know what I'm saying? This is just, you know, this is something that she wanted in the relationship. And this is your first relationship. Yes. So, I mean, it's kind of like learning how to drive and then going to the auto bond, right? Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Because it's like, that's like hardcore shit. Yeah, it's definitely not something that, you know, I'm probably sure I've heard of like, oh, well, you're top dog or something like that. Something very minor of it. But like role play for me was like, oh, hey, dress up as a prince and a princess. Whereas role play for him was this dominant, submissive thing. When I asked Gypsy about the bondage and the S&M dynamic with Nick, she was clear. That was Nick's thing and he introduced it.

But then there's Dan Glydewell. Dan Gleadwell is the man that Gypsy met at VisionCon four years before Nick ever came into the picture. Dan testified under oath at Nick's post-conviction hearing in 2022, and what he described was a relationship that started off as a friendship and evolved into something more. They started video chatting, they exchanged explicit videos, she sent nude photos, she dressed up in costumes, she used fictitious character names. Dan described Gypsy as shy and timid, but then the defense asked him about the power exchange dynamics. Whether it was something that he introduced, whether it's something that he asked for, and he said no. Quote, if I'm being honest, I developed a taste for it from her.

end quote. So according to Gypsy, Nick introduced it. That's what she told me. Dan says otherwise under oath. But you gave into that in the relationship, right? You had different personas that you played according to your book, right? Because I know about Demona or Demona. Demona.

Demona. But then there were other ones, right? Yeah, there was like a kitty and candy and stuff like this. And it like, it became where. You know, he had different multiple personalities, so it's like I made some up too to like match them. I was like matchmaking with these alternate personalities. So yeah. And I guess you know where this is going, right?

This is going to the Demona video part of it. Yeah. I know that we want hopefully lots of children. If we have a boy first, we're going to protect. him and protect our children from the outside world because they can't know about us. They can't know about you being a vampire. But we're going to protect them and keep them educated on what not to say in front of people and make sure that they understand the severity of keeping this secret.

I'm going to pause here. Protect our children from the outside world? It's interesting, right? The parallels to the dynamic between Gypsy and her mom, D.D., Gypsy says that D.D. kept their secret about Gypsy's real health from the outside world, too. But that's not the part that I want you to hear. Let's play the tape. And if we have a girl, the way it has to be is if we have a girl, she has to lose her virginity to you because you are, the master of the household. So I'm going to have to explain that to her whenever she comes of age where it's time to explain it. Other than that, like when she's seven, I won't explain that, but around 13 I'll explain. In the video, you do offer this imaginary child that you have

together, like on her 13th birthday or something like that. And you offer it up to him, right? Help people understand that are not in that world. What was reality versus what was fantasy? How do you explain that? Okay, well, Nick had instructed me to make certain videos. Certain videos were replying to certain versions of his personalities. These videos were a product of scripts that he would give me, say this, wear this. I'm about to play you one of the many videos that Nick sent Gypsy. In this video, it does seem like he's instructing her to include certain elements in her videos back to him. Hi, Gypsy and Dimona.

I forgot to add one thing to that video, and I'm going to make this a separate video, but it's still about the other one that you both are to make. Gypsy, you do have something's expected to wear. So do you, Dimona. You wonder what it is, don't you? Nick's videos are bizarre and not easy to understand, but pay attention to how he's talking. It sounds like he's giving her specific instructions. And I did give Gypsy a lot to remember.

Then I gave Demona, I suppose, a good amount to remember too. So you have a lot to remember. If you have to listen to it in your ear, yes, your earpieces, while you're, have it put into your laptop, and you write down each topic, just remember them all, just so you make sure you please me. Then make sure you do that. I'm serious. You want me to be pleased, you want him to be reassured. The same thing with you, Dima. You want to write down the topics I mentioned for you, you do the same. The only reason that you might have to do foresome is because I am known to be homosexual one out of us all.

And I'm not ever going to make excuses. Those videos were disgusting, and I regret them. They are deeply disturbing. I now have a daughter, and if anything like that was to happen, I would go back to prison. I would go back to prison if anybody even thought about my daughter like that. It is disgusting. And to this day, that gets thrown in my face. And I'm like, you have to understand, where's Nick's responsibility and all of this?

Like, he's the one that asked me to make it. Yes, I didn't have to make it. I didn't. Those things should have never came out of my mouth. I know that. And I regret that. And that would never realistically happen. I'm appalled and disgusted.

And all I can do is apologize and say, you know, that's not who I am. Now, before you start saying, you know, spiraling. Here's how I think about this. Gypsy grew up completely isolated. She had no friends. She didn't go to school. She had no normal frame of reference for what relationships are supposed to look like. Whatever she knew about sex and intimacy, she probably learned it from the internet. And we all know what the internet teaches kids about sex. Girls being choked, pain, dressed up as passion. I mean, contemporary porn looks like torture videos these days. In my view, that's what she had to work with.

She also knew that she needed help to get out. She needed someone willing to come get her. And she knew what men wanted, dark, intense, violent sex. So the question isn't whether Gypsy introduced that dynamic to Dan and later to Nick, because she liked it or because that was her kink. The real question is whether she believed that that was the price of her freedom. But what I can tell you is that this dynamic, becomes a thread that runs through this entire story,

right up to the night of the murder on June 9, 2015. Sex and Escape. In Gypsy's world, they're completely tangled up together. Next time on Pretend. Before the murder, Gypsy and Dee's relationship was spinning out of control. She came at me and I got scared and there was a BB gun on the table, kitchen table. And I grabbed it out of fear, and I released the BBs at her. Gypsy supporters will tell you that's not the act of someone running the show.

That's the act of someone trying to escape. And she wasn't. She created her own murderer. She has turned into her mom. She is doing the manipulation. I truly believe that Nick would not be in prison for murder today, had Gypsy not manipulated and worked him for two and a half years. That's next time on pretend.

So at the end of part one, you heard me talking about newly released prison phone calls made during Gypsy's eight-year prison sentence. There's a lot coming out fast, and it's honestly hard to keep up with, but here's one little nugget I thought was relevant to this episode. In this clip, Gypsy is talking to a man about breaking up with Nick after the Demona video. was right after he told me that he wanted to have our daughter when she was like 13. He went on about like, I don't know, this like virginity type ceremony trip. And he was like, if we have a daughter, then at 13 she had to give me her virginity

and I fucking cussed him out and broke up him. He was very fucked up. So, I mean, whenever I'd try to be normal, I'd break up with him because I knew it was unhealthy. All right, so that was part two of the Gypsy Rose obsession. If you want to listen to more episodes, part three is available right now, and as soon as part four and part five are available, they will be dropping on Patreon and Pretend Plus on Apple Podcast. We still have a lot more coming.

I've spoken to a lot of people for this series, mostly on the anti-Gy side, and I'm really curious what you guys think. I will be releasing bonus content and lightly edited full-length interviews. because honestly, I interviewed so many people and there is no way that I'm going to be able to get all of that information into these episodes. But if you're curious and you want to learn more, these bonus interviews are going to be available on Pretend Plus on Apple Podcasts and on Patreon. Also, I don't know if you guys have looked at the comments on Spotify, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, but they are wild.

The comments are like a whole different show on its own. I knew that this series was going to get people talking, but I had no idea. idea how intense it was going to be. All right, that's all I have for today. Thank you for listening. Let's roll the credits. Hi, I'm Rebecca, a pretend Patreon supporter. Today's episode was written and produced by Javier Leva. It was edited by Puneith Chenoy with the podcast fundance and theme music by Joe Basile with the chicken.net. If you're a Patreon supporter and you want to read the credits for the episodes, shoot me a message. All right. That's all I got. Talk to you next week.

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