Nobody Should Believe Me - S04 Ep04: Breaking Free

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Jo reconnects with their friend, Kristin, who took them in as a homeless teenager after Jo was removed from Donna’s care due to her alcoholism. As a young mother in the midst of her own difficult situation, Kristin’s relationship with Jo had its challenges, but as they recount their time together, it’s a healing and clarifying moment for both of them. Jo continues on their rocky road to freedom from their mother’s clutches as they look for help from the medical community outside their mother’s influence.   *A warning for listeners this episode does contain descriptions of disordered eating. Please take care.  *** Links/Resources:  Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. National Eating Disorders Resources: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/get-help/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. This episode contains descriptions of disordered eating, so please take care. Resources are available in the show notes. The strangeness of what was happening with my sister hit me little by little and then all at once. Because, of course, these behaviors of hers with deception and medical issues went back quite a ways. We both moved out of the house for college when we turned 18. And, you know, I went to California for college and then went to New York for the rest of my 20s. And, you know, I was just being a young person and living my own life. And she was on the other side of the country. our family really stayed close throughout most of that time,

even though there was this sort of escalating series of strange things, which was really exemplified by the fake pregnancy that she had when she and I were both in our 20s. You know, you would think that that would have been enough. That's a situation that I look back and think, like, how could you not have understood how serious this was when that happened? And I think that she just had enough sort of markers of still having a normal life at that point. You know, she had this full-time job that she, as a nurse, that she'd had forever. She still had a lot of the same friends at that point. For myself and for my parents, it was when her son was born and

he was born early and he started having this, you know, series of escalating health issues that the situation just became intolerable. And I think when I talk to other people who are either family members or, you know, non-offending spouses or survivors like Joe, we all kind of have this commonality in our experience of like, it was our normal with the person and it sort of seemed normal until all of a sudden it didn't. And then you're looking back at a whole bunch of incidents that led up to that and you suddenly see them in this very dramatic new light. And I think for someone who's outside listening to this experience, it's easy to say, how could you not know something was wrong? What about this? What about that? And you don't realize like how, like how entrenched you are in that person's world when you're close to them. And I think that's obviously extremely potent for survivors because that's their parent and that's sort of the person who created their whole reality when they were growing up. One of the huge benefits from having some kind of peer support with this issue, so talking to other people who've been through cases, is that you feel

this relief that you're not crazy. I think being close to one of these people makes you doubt reality and usually for a pretty long period of time and when you talk to someone else who's had that really similar experience you just you realize that they're not crazy and that makes you realize that you're not crazy and you can both sort of describe sort of beat for beat such a similar experience. And they're just such strong parallels in these cases that being able to see that pattern and then sort of look back at your own history and see where those parallels are makes you realize that you're not crazy. You weren't foolish for missing it. You, you know, aren't culpable for caring about that person and trying to help them. I think one of the things that makes getting out of that space

that is the reality created by a perpetrator, what makes it so difficult for their children is that they have to leave the house and start to develop other support networks. That's sort of when we usually see survivors coming to some sort of realization about what happened to them. That happened for Joe because of Donna's alcoholism, because the reason that Joe was separated from Donna had nothing to do with the medical child abuse, and that revelation wouldn't come until later.

But the wheels were just coming off with Donna. She was just becoming much less functional by the time that Joe was a teenager. And this, ironically, you know, allowed Joe to get away from Donna earlier than they probably would have otherwise, and this very well could have saved their life. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.

Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and

shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with

you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Calling all sellers. Salesforce

is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here, innovation isn't a buzzword. It's a way of life. You'll be solving customer challenges faster with agents, winning with purpose, and showing the world what AI was meant to be. Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. If you'd like to support the show,

the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad-free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it.

Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For more, you can now find us on YouTube, where we have all of our episodes as well as bonus video content. With their older sister out of the house and both their biological father Reza and Dale, the father they grew up with, on the outs with Donna, Joe was alone with their mom a lot.

And as the abuse escalated, it became intolerable. As Joe got into their teen years, they started to resist their mom's controlling behavior, which only made Donna tighten her grip. In looking for sanctuary from their mother's abuse, Joe turned to more or less the only place one could look for help in Hutchinson, and that's the church. I guess maybe because that was when I was a teenager. I was probably 14-ish. And so that's when I started to kind of break away from my mom a little bit. And I think she felt threatened by that.

And so she started saying, like, I was a Jesus freak. And she would tell me that my neighbors were going to kidnap me. And she would tell me and others that the church I was going to was a cult and like how bad it was and all of these things, which at that point in my life made me want to go more because I didn't want my mom to be like happy. I was really mad at her for drinking. Nothing to do with MVP stuff. Like high school is the first time I ever told anyone anything that was happening in my home. Prior to that, when I started getting more involved with church, where I started, I opened up to my neighbors and my youth leader for Youth for Christ. He was the first person I ever told anything that was happening. But all these people then that started to be in

my life that were involved in church started to think I was making up illnesses and stuff. It was my choice to be healthy and I could just stop having an eating disorder and I could stop being sick and even though I was still in the home and all the other things. Without the context of the abuse that they were suffering, the other adults in Joe's life didn't understand that whatever disparities they were noticing between Joe's alleged health problems and the seeming reality of their health were not the result of Joe's choices, but of their mother's. And this set up a confusing and often adversarial relationship between Joe and their body that would manifest in myriad ways

over the years to come. Just how fraught this connection had become was something that Joe wouldn't even fully have a handle on until they obtained their medical records as an adult and began to understand the scope of their mom's abuse. I think it wasn't until I looked through my records, what, few days ago that it really hit me how deliberate it all was and how like so many of the illnesses and things were so like planned out like it'd be planted seeds of oh she's having these little symptoms and then all of a sudden there'd be emergencies and things like that like there were so many seeds that were being planted that then like exploded and turned into something really big. And I still, it's really hard to grapple with that and understand it. And I know, I mean,

looking back with all of it, it's like she was very deliberate about everything. She pitted me and my sister against each other our whole lives. You know, like I was the thin one. I was the athletic one. I was the sick one who needed attention. And she did it deliberately, right, to make it so that like I would fight with her and she would fight with me. Like we would fight over who was mom's favorite and who could get attention from mom. And then she would like, if she was mad at us, she would give you the silent treatment and like wouldn't talk to you or would just cry. Like I remember starting in fourth grade

writing poems to her. The first poem I wrote was For You, Mom. And it was like a three page poem about like how good she was and how much I loved her and needed her and stuff like that and that just kept going where I would have to write these letters and stuff which ironically one time I like looked through my mom's stuff and there was like I found a letter from the person who I thought was my dad and then from another one of my mom's exes where they wrote letters to her about

how amazing she was and how much they loved her and how much they wanted her to stay in their lives. So she knew what she was doing and she had us all wrapped around her finger. She knew exactly what strings to pull

to get us to behave in the ways that she wanted and needed in those moments. Joe was isolated with their mom, who was really deteriorating by this point. Given that Joe had been coached to be terrified of Reza, and he wasn't really in their life, the only other option was Dale, who also really wasn't up to the task of parenting. When I was 14, my mom's alcoholism had gotten a lot worse and it had become pretty unsafe to be in my home. The cops were there quite often and we were

quite well known around town for that. And so when I was 14, I was finally taken out of the home by the cops for the alcoholism. Absolutely nothing to do with the Munchausen by proxy. And I was put with my dad for a little while. However, once my mom went to rehab and had this like miraculous recovery, I was placed back with her, even though on the way home, the social worker literally said to me that she knew that my mom was still drinking and there was just nothing that she could do

and so I ended up back in the home at 15 16 and once I saw that my mom was still drinking and knew that there was really nobody that could help me. And so I ended up homeless from 16 to 18 until I was able to move in with my sister as an adult. But I never, within all of that, I had never really recognized that I wasn't sick. I still thought that I had all these different things. I can remember my asthma suddenly going away. And I had told myself that like, oh, I've just gotten really good at pushing through it. And I'm just like, acting like I don't have it. But I still thought I did. I thought that it was just like, I was stronger than it or something like that. But that is when my when I got taken out is when my eating disorder started. And I think that that was kind of since I was no longer in and out of the hospital

because of my mom, I think that I started to be in and out of the hospital for this eating disorder because I didn't know any different. and the hospital had become such a safe place in a way for me to be taken care of. And I was a kid that was homeless, and so I needed some sort of care still. Eating disorders are more common in people who experience childhood trauma, and many Munchausen by proxy survivors

report struggling with them as Joe did. Joe was also a teen during the early to mid-aughts, which were a particularly bleak and ruthless time when it came to body image. Not that it isn't a problem today, but back then, any deviation from the ideal of lean muscle and no discernible body fat would mean a full-on public shaming. Say Jessica Simpson mom jeans to any millennial and watch for the full body shudder. So being a young person during this time, you kind of had no chance to begin with. Our sense of self as teenagers is always pretty fragile, but Joe's had been utterly poisoned by Donna. I had formed this vision of myself as this evil, bad, manipulative, contaminant of a human. And that's kind of how I viewed myself in the world. I thought that bad things happened to me because of me and that it was like all my fault. And I think that was reflected a lot, especially in

high school by different people that could have been, should have been, were supposedly mentors and things like that. And so I just, there was nothing really in me that said like, oh, my mom's bad. I think, you know, obviously I knew that she was like an alcoholic. So I knew that she had a lot of issues with that, but I still didn't have any idea about a lot of the trauma and abuse I had really gone through. So in 2016, when I went out of state for eating disorder treatment, they had wanted me to write a timeline where they wanted me to write all of the memories I had about what I had been through throughout my life, which let me just say, nobody should ever be told to do that when they first start treatment. But when I sat down to write my timeline, I was like, huh, I don't have any

memories pre being like 13 years old. And so that was very weird experience. Like all I could remember was, like I said, being like kind of happy and fun and having like a decent childhood. And I but then I struggle with dissociation and whenever I would dissociate I'd be hiding in closets or like really really fearful or unable to talk and so I was like why when I'm having this dissociation and appearing younger am I so scared but my only memories are of being happy and carefree and having fun. And like, this does not add up at all. And so I reached out, that's when I reached out to family members and teachers and people from my past. And how old were you when you first went to treatment for

grading disorder? When I first went to treatment, I was 16. Joe has been in the process of trying to put their memories back together for the better part of a decade now, mostly from afar. I really admire their bravery because I know how hard it is to come to terms with what this abuse really is, to really look at it in the face. And that's why most people, including some survivors, avoid it at all costs. My sister didn't have nearly as profound an impact on my identity as Joe's mom had on theirs, but coming to terms with who my sister is has had the effect of recasting my childhood in an entirely new light. Everything looks different. The way that my sister's pets always seemed to be the ones that got sick.

Her suddenly getting close to anyone who was ill or impaired. As Joe and I have become close over the years, we've spent some time unpacking this dissonance and asking these questions. Was anything about this person real? Did they ever really love me? I know how emotional it is for me to talk to people from my own childhood. Sometimes I hear from people who don't know anything about what's happened with Megan and just casually ask me how she's been. Or sometimes they find this podcast first, and then it's a very different conversation. And for me, at least most of my memories are still there, even if they don't make sense.

For Jo, coming back to Hutchinson must feel like walking into a forest with a blindfold on. How does it feel being back here? It has been such a whirlwind and really, really weird, honestly. I'm already emotional. Thinking about how far I've come and all the things that I've like survived to get to this point and knowing like how little of my story has ever really been shared and how much impact I think that it could have on other people. And just like, yeah, just the opportunity to be here doing this and that it's all real and really happening and literally just the fact that I'm alive really makes me emotional probably

every day. What's up, Spotify? This is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour. We didn't have any guitar picks, and we didn't have time to go to the store, so we placed an order on Prime, and it got there the next day, ready for the show. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime.

Playoff football is here with BetMGM, and as an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, BetMGM is the best place to fuel your football fandom on Prime. 19 years of age or older, Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. One of the people Joe remembers having helped them survive this precarious teen period where they were struggling with homelessness was Kristen. Hey! Oh my God! Kristen had her own struggles growing up in and around Hutch, and at the time, she was raising a small child

and in a troubled relationship. I miss you so much. But Kristen and Joe saw each other for who they were, and they did their best to be supportive. They kept a hold of each other like imperfect ports in the chaotic storms of both their lives. And while they'd seen some life updates here and there about each other on social media, like so many of us do with friends from childhood,

they hadn't been together in the same room for almost a decade. Oh my god, it has been 10 years. I know. 10, like a literal decade. A literal decade. Actual decade. Kristen is a pretty Midwestern mom who arrives in a cute floral dress. It's February, but the unseasonable warmth has the locals dressed for spring,

and she has a big warm smile. Joe met Kristen when she hired them as a babysitter, back when her kids were little, following an unfortunate incident with a different Hutchinson teen who decided to use her babysitting time to throw a wild party at Kristen's house. Joe and Kristen crack up as they remember the series of events that led to their fortuitous meeting. Joe had been kicked out of Dale's house by this time, and unmoored as they were,

they still struck Kristen as completely trustworthy. I just, I feel the same. Like, Joe has always been my sister. Like, you've always been family. Like, Joe has always been my sister. You've always been family. Like, we've always been family. And I love you so much. Like, from the instant I met Joe, like, it was like, I remember she was wearing like, little neon shorts. I picked her up to come babysit for me and I'm like this this girl is adorable and I remember coming home after and she'd watch the kids and she'd made them snacks and had like the cutest like setup for them and was just so absolutely wonderful with my kids. And it was such a change because we actually met through a previous babysitter situation that was exactly the opposite of that.

So you were working full time, had two little kids. And then, yeah, what did you know about, what did you know about Joe's situation when you met them? Not a whole lot, very, I don't like to pry. I very much like people to give whatever they're willing, and I don't ever wanna make anyone uncomfortable. So I didn't pry too much. I knew that they needed a place to stay.

I fucking love Joe. Like I, their family, like. And so I knew that there was rough tension in between Joe and mother. And I didn't know exactly what that all entailed until a bit later. There was, I remember one, the time I met her, you had been staying with me, I don't think for very long and I don't even recall what she, she kind of stormed up to the apartment. She like knocked on the door.

I don't think she even said hello. She like asked whatever demanding question and left. Like it was a very weird, awkward, tense, not normal conversation. And that was the impression that I had of her. And then I didn't have any real interactions with her after that. I had seen her at graduation party. Jo has a lot of happy memories of Kristen from this time,

and the young mom was a lifeline for them. But they also carried some mixed emotions about the relationship. Sometimes when I think back, I think I felt like kind of like a burden or like I was just kind of like, yeah, a burden, I think would be like the best word to describe that. I've always felt kind of guilty. So it means a lot to hear like you say those things because I didn't know how you I Mean I know that you've always still like showed up and still Like loved me and stuff so I knew all of that, but I didn't know

Yeah, you've never ever ever been a burden to me Joe. You've only ever brought light to my life when we were living together and we couldn't anymore because we both were struggling with an eating disorder that was competing and not doing well for either of us. It was healthy for us both to not live together at that point. And that was not non-you we both had that and i love you like it's that's a side you know i i fully understand that feeling of feeling like you're a burden because it's a trauma response i understand i felt that way too and that's what keeps you from asking for help from anyone is because you don't want to burden anyone but Jo you've never been a burden.

I think that this has been like the craziest part of all of this so far is nobody has been saying the things that I like expect them to say from like the memories that I have which obviously are from like my little kid teenage brain um watching these two talk I feel like I'm witnessing Joe's story of themselves be rewritten in real time I can see from Kristen's face that she loves Joe and the warmth between them is palpable I know this isn't what Joe expected, that they felt like somehow there was something they needed to atone for. I definitely feel like I caused harm. And I mean, for a long time, right, I like held beliefs that I'm like bad and evil and manipulative. And like, all I do is cause harm and things like that.

And I think over the past couple months, that shifted with just different revelations that I've talked about having. And I can recognize that I still caused harm as a kid, as a teen, as a young adult. But I could also recognize that it wasn't like, I was ever like trying to like hurt anyone and that it was just like I was unwell, I was in survival, like I was literally a teenager that didn't have a place to live and was like trying to get through school

and all of that sort of stuff. But I can like, so I can recognize that that but i think it feels really different to hear from like other people like i don't hate you or like that like you weren't a burden or things like that it feels really really confusing because i think i've been starting to know notice that it seems like more people were aware of what was going on. And obviously you were like, had to have been somewhat aware since I was like living with you as a teenager. But it's like, so I know people were like aware and it's like, I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways.

Some of it because I didn't have words to verbalize like what was going on. I didn't have any idea what was all happening and stuff like that. So it makes sense, but it's just so confusing to kind of hold both. I really did have a village. I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life.

And I was still in a really shitty situation for that was like out of a lot of people's control. Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Joe say all of this. What are you thinking? I like fully, fully understand everything that you're saying like i totally get it and it it hurts like i hurt i hurt for a 17 year old joe i hurt for child joe that carried that you'd never we all cause harm. Like all of us.

Especially when we're teenagers. We're growing. We're shitty. My teenagers, I love them, but they're shitty right now. We all do shit and we all cause harm. And you didn't deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has... None of that shit was on you.

None of it. You weren't evil. You weren't doing anything. You were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box box as we all were. And I think that 10 years makes a big difference in being able to recognize that and just the growth that has happened. I mean, psychologically and it's incredible. It's incredibly enlightening.

Just as Joe's first grade teacher, Mrs. Becker, did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe's high school graduation party. She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe when she didn't do anything. Like literally Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was very, just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to, you know, know this is, this is my Joe. This is like, and again, this is many years ago.

But my overall impression was that she very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn't present as a parent, from what I could tell because Joe is living with me and didn't have didn't see her didn't have like she didn't come by and check on her to see how she was doing the graduation party I have pictures of us together at my grad party. So I reached out to my mom and said, hey, I need all of the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party.

And my mom was like, you have to give these back. These are so important. Oh my God, yeah, that's right. You better not ruin them. I still have them, all of them. I just have told her that I lost them or something or I ignore the texts. But for years, like probably a good decade, she would like randomly reach out and be like, do you have those pictures? And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're mine. That's literally me. But so I like got these big poster boards and kind of put together all these pictures and got help because I had no idea what I was doing. I think at that time I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, like people had been warning people about me and to stay away from me because I was like a bad kid

or something who's to say but they did they did the performance they made food for the grad party I you know I invited people I was 17 and like put together this whole thing as someone who was so sheltered my entire life, no idea what I was doing. But we got some people to make some food. My sister's husband's mom made cupcakes. That's right. And then I like reserved a space at a park or somehow. Literally don't know how any of it came together.

But, and then, yeah my my mom showed up I'm pretty sure Dale showed up um I want to say Raza might have showed up but I can't remember I'm pretty sure he did because I remember me or he was maybe going to I remember being terrified that both my dads are going to be, like, in the same place at the same time. Weird enough having my mom and dad there. But, yeah, my mom came in and just acted like she had put it all together. Kristen had essentially taken over as Joe's parent during this time. Not that Donna exactly thanked her for it. I don't remember my mom ever coming into your house at all. I do like that.

That's how I met her. Like she came to my house and maybe it was even when it was like did the pictures. Maybe that's what like, but I just remember like her coming and just say, I think she was like, where's Joe? And I don't remember. But it was like she didn't ever acknowledge me or say, like, hi, I'm Joe's mom. Nice to meet you. There wasn't that introduction. Yeah, there was no introduction that ever happened. It was like, where's this?

Okay. After she met Donna, Kristen began to understand that this went far beyond the normal parenting tension. I had, like, my mom and I had some rough years. I think like all teenagers do, but it wasn't the same dynamic. And I think I was a bit shocked when I think I connected with Joe over like kind of issues with mom but then when I met her I'm like this is not this is not the same because like this is not a normal communication between mother and daughter like it just wasn't I don't know. It was very, it didn't seem loving.

It seemed, it was very, like, coercive and demanding. During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked that what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse. I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Jo through their story on social media and kept up to date that way.

And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that kind of wanting attention demandingly. I don't know. Do you remember me ever like being sick or having like different physical issues I guess going on?

In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no that no yeah which actually that makes like so much sense I talked a lot about how I think once I left the home I wasn't sick anymore like in that way like I wasn't going to the hospital for asthma or for like neutropenia or all these like wild things that I supposedly had but it was the eating disorder like took over in that way. And I mean, you know, I was in and out of treatment centers. You work in the medical field. Did you have, before hearing Joe's story,

did you have any awareness of Munchausen myproxy? No. I'd heard of it. I'd known of it, personally seen it. No, not to my knowledge. Did you have any training about it or learn about it in any of your medical training? No, I mean in school in psychology I learned about it just as much as along with a whole slew of other psychological disorders, not in depth no I have read more into it obviously since and I think that it's definitely the alarm bells go off a lot more in that and I also work in urgent care I have a bunch of jobs but I also work in urgent care as a medical assistant. And there are definitely, I see warning bells there because we get that repetitive mother bringing their child back with the same type of symptoms and situations. And I think that knowing of this definitely creates the awareness to help future people.

Like, awareness is, you can't fix it without being aware of it. Mrs. Becker also, like, commented on, like, she kind of, like, became aware of the extent of more of my trauma also through social media and it's like interesting because when I think back like I was obviously I was living with you so like you knew like certain things but I feel like really most of my life like I kept so much to myself I also repressed so much and like I didn't have awareness. Like you could have asked questions and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really, I blocked like pretty much everything out until like 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions and I still don't think I would have had the words

or the language or any sort of the like understanding. I just knew that I was unwell. How does it feel to see how far Joe's come since fucking glorious? I want to tell you about a show I love, Truer Crime from Cilicia Stanton. My favorite true crime shows are the ones where I feel like the creator has a real stake in what they're talking about, and this is definitely the case with Cilicia, who got interested in covering crime because, like many of us in this genre, she experienced it. In each episode of the show, Cilicia brings a personal, deeply insightful lens to the crime

that she covers, whether it's a famous case like the Manson murders or Jonestown, or a lesser known case that needs to be heard, like the story of a modern lynching. She covers these stories with a fresh and thoughtful lens, helping listeners understand not just the case itself, but why it matters to our understanding of the world. Her long-awaited second season is airing now, and the first season is ready to binge. So go check out True or Crime with Cilicia Stanton wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film,

or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich, Schmeich's own dog. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the Wild West, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in

the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.

The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna. The hospital. I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis and I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota and I've been here for 34 plus years and I took care of Joe when she was young on and off. I remember Dr. McGinnis being a really safe safe person. I yeah I remember just always feeling really safe and like I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me. Um, but she was the first person that I ever told that I had been like purging to, um, I mean, she asked like outright,

like, have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, oh my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. Um, I said yes. And then I know for a while I like saw her weekly, um, to get weights and draw labs and just like make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't, um, causing too much physical, physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about, I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Jill? Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all, you know, kind of coming out in the 90s. Yeah, I think, yeah, my memory really once the eating disorder kind of was more like full force. I didn't have

many other health issues. It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of, a lot of the appointments. Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her? Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder, was some of her dysfunction, is my impression.

But your grandma played into that, too, too what do you mean well I think when I was looking at your tart last night I looked at one note from Melrose your initial evaluation and they said something about your grandma said you know told you to always suck in your gut or you'd look fat so I don't know if that was if you have that memory too oh yeah I do have that memory so that's not really a healthy thing I think that people should be saying to anybody but yeah I think there was plenty of issues to go around yeah yeah I remember that like vividly I was wearing my like green and blue swimsuit and um I like sat down and then my grandma was like no like stand up

stuck in your stomach before you sit down otherwise like you'll look fat um and that did stick with me for like I mean for so much of my life I would do exactly that because I thought that's, like, what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started, like, weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but, like, it just became, like, a... How old were you? Probably around seven. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I have a picture of me in that like little bathing suit And I was like Yeah, I was a very tiny kid like I needed more food and to be eating like I was unhealthy So then to be telling me that I like should suck in my stomach because I'm like looking a certain way or things like that I mean obviously all fat phobic and like inappropriate regardless this piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable and I am certain I'm not the only

one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood so yes just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies, because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.

I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services. Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?

Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because they're three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I kind of had that in the back of my mind. You know, when people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen by proxy depression anxiety whatever it is it goes on your problem list and you review that before you see every patient so you kind of have oh these are the things they've had in the past I had a long problems list. Yeah. Yeah, it was really long.

So, but I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you, and we were focusing on what you said, and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and... Telling me to eat. Trying to get you into treatment. I mean, because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. You know, I think, like I say, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home.

But I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on. Because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic I I told you I think more than like anyone um which says a lot right if you like say like I didn't really say much um but I remember like yeah coming into the appointments I was always nervous because I always thought I was gonna get get in trouble or something not like because you ever made me feel that way but just because like I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or like doing things that were harmful so I was always like nervous about that but at the same time I liked coming in I guess every week like I liked that like you you were like my support like you

were like that adult in my life or whatever and um I'm sure that that like played out with the struggles with the eating disorder you know like to keep me being able to come see you every week and things like that um because I just needed that safety and that safe person. But I, yeah, cause I remember it was like, yeah, like a love hate relationship with coming here. Like I didn't want to, cause I didn't want to tell you that I was still not doing what I was supposed to, but then at the same time,

I just wanted to have someone to talk to for a little bit. And I think that's pretty common and pretty classic. You know at the time we did not have like the mental health unit didn't do a lot of eating disorder stuff and I had other people with eating disorders who would come to weigh in with rocks in their pockets and things like that. So, I mean, it was, you have to really be careful. I thought that just smelling food, the calories would like seep into my skin. And like, so I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now like, sometimes I'll be'll be like wow it's kind of weird that I'm just eating but like that's like the most it's just like a slight thought where I'm

like whoa this is different but like now I'm like oh I'm hungry I need food like I don't really think it's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives so I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come. Because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call it your childhood then. I think it's reasonable. And you've just really, really turned yourself around

and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back. Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Jo and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has many selves in the mind. So you have many independent selves who share one physical body. And most of the time it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen

is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar. And administrative support from Nola Karmush. And thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich, Schmeich's and Bog. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air

was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the Wild West, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal

history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.