Nobody Should Believe Me - S04 Ep05: Revelations

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Today we look back at Jo’s revelation in their twenties that they’d been a victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse: a moment that turned their world upside down. As Jo forges a path forward – reviewing their medical records and even confronting their childhood pediatrician – they discover how complex healing from this abuse truly is. Jo also opens up about their experiences with Dissociative Identity Disorder. We speak to Jo’s therapist, Angie, about their complicated system of coping mechanisms. We also bring in Jackie Rodriguez LMSW, QMHP-CS and peer support specialist Jade Miller to help us understand the deeply misunderstood and stigmatized condition of DID.  *** Links/Resources:  Jade Miler - https://www.peersupportformultiples.com/ Jackie Rodriguez, LMSW, QMHP-CS - Instagram  Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. Today's episode includes descriptions of child abuse and may be difficult for some listeners. Even for those of us who did not experience childhood trauma, memories of our younger years are pretty sparse. Partially because, for some of us who are hitting middle age, for example, these events took place many decades ago. But also because our brains store memories differently as very young children, which is why you can't remember, for example, being born. And this is why we rely on our parents, for the most part, to be the historians of our childhood. And this goes for our health history, too. I, for example, have a thin white scar from

the time I put a tooth through my upper lip after I jumped off the deck at age three, but I don't actually remember it. I do remember trying to catapult my friend off of a piece of plywood we found in the neighbor's yard and putting a nail through my foot several years later. Ah, the 80s. But only my mom remembers taking me to the emergency room for my tennis shot. But what if your childhood was almost nothing but these types of stories? With large swaths of your time being spent in and out of the hospital for an illness or emergency, and what if all at once, as an adult, you realized you couldn't trust anything you thought you knew? People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic

because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.

We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read

this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show

notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Calling all sellers. Salesforce is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here, innovation isn't a buzzword. It's a way of life. You'll be solving customer challenges faster with agents,

winning with purpose, and showing the world what AI was meant to be. Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad-free,

along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For more, you can now find us on YouTube, where we have all of our episodes as well as bonus video content. I was sitting in a class at the community college I was attending in St. Louis. And my professor in my psychology class happened to be talking about Munchausen's

and Munchausen's by proxy. And as she talked about it, I suddenly just got flooded with memory after memory. And I took out my phone and I wrote it all down in my notes and immediately emailed my therapy team, kind of panicked because I had never heard of this. And my whole life just kind of suddenly felt like it was over. To say this revelation changed Jo's life is an understatement. And today we're going to look at how they began the process of trying to sort fact from fiction about this most intimate piece of their history, their own body. By the time they learned about Munchausen

by proxy, Joe's relationship with their body had become deeply disordered, and the revelations about the abuse added yet another layer of complexity. At that point, I was struggling pretty immensely with an eating disorder. I've struggled with an eating disorder since I was 14. And I also struggled with OCD and depression and anxiety and just a whole slew of different issues and some PTSD from other traumas. So what was your therapy team's response when you told them this? Did they know about Munchausen by proxy? Did that sort of slot something into place for them or were they running to sort of catch up with the whole thing as well? They responded very professionally, I would say. I don't think that any of them really knew what that was. I assume that they probably looked it up and looked into it. But all of them kind of responded similarly, saying things like, well, that makes a lot of sense.

And then when I had my following sessions, we were able to start talking through it more. But at that point, I pretty much stopped eating. I was having some pretty severe flashbacks and things like that. And physically, just every time I would try to eat would just start sobbing or get really sick. And so that kind of ended up being the focus over trying to figure any of that out even. It must have been incredibly overwhelming. Yeah, definitely. It was a really, really scary time. And I mean, within a few weeks,

I ended up back in residential treatment, which was just an interesting experience since I had just been figuring out that I had this medical trauma to suddenly be in a medical setting. That must have been really hard. Yeah, it was really scary. And I just remember feeling so lost and confused. In order to get to the bottom of things, Joe began tracking down their pediatric medical records.

And we spoke to their longtime therapist, Angie, about the process of helping, Joe began tracking down their pediatric medical records. And we spoke to their longtime therapist, Angie, about the process of helping Joe sort through this. As they got their records, and there was a lot of different records, they brought them in and had pulled out pieces that we were going to process and talk about in session that, you know, some would have landed incredibly hard, some in terms of wrestling, you know, with what was written down and then all the emotions that encompass around the medical system. And then what does that mean in terms of relationship with mom? And, you know, it kind of just began to open up the doors for processing. Around this time is, you know, when honestly, shortly after the records came in and there

was that clarity, the eating disorder started coming in stronger. And, you know, it honestly also brings a lot more clarity even in terms of the needs that the eating disorder comes in and how as a way of even surviving and getting to the point to where they're at today, you know, and I've always said, I'm like, even prior to this, there was such, they have so much resiliency. And, you know, I, you know, reading through the records and starting to open up pieces that were already there, but, you know, of course, couldn't be named at the time. You know, just to continue to show their capacity

to work towards recovery and recovery in life, beginning to kind of peel back and see, there's almost like a hierarchy that comes in of like, what is most needed, you know, at this time when, not to say the crisis hit, but to a degree, because this heavy thing just landed in terms of finding out information about oneself that was there, but actually having the name for it and the records for it. And, you know, what is most needed in this moment in terms of stabilizing and then creating the capacity for more healing work to happen.

Having met numerous survivors at this point, this is a pretty common trajectory of discovery. Once they enter the outside world, something tips them off and it leads to the revelation that they were victimized. And most perpetrators are never held accountable. So even if survivors have some memories, for instance, of being in and out of court or interacting with CPS, they don't have anything approaching the full story of what happened to them until they start digging for it on their own. Imagine how disorienting and how terrifying it would be if all of a sudden your own body was a complete mystery to you. And similarly to Joe, many survivors also struggle with disordered eating. Can you talk a bit more about the interplay between the eating disorder and this abuse

and sort of, you know, both sort of generally with eating disorders and trauma. And then, you know, because you'd said like that you saw that almost as a survival mechanism. And that's really interesting to me. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah. Sometimes it can be, you know, the eating disorder for one absolutely comes in each behavior. If you look underneath, there's some sort of unmet need underneath the behavior or else it wouldn't be coming in and wouldn't be happening. So my, I mean, honestly,

my goal within it all is to, you know, get, dive into that curiosity around what has the eating disorder become? Because a lot of times it almost becomes like another primary caregiver, you know, and it becomes looking at the relationship between intimacy and food and, you know, and it becomes looking at the relationship between intimacy and food and, you know, how does food show up for you in a way that like people don't, and that could be restricting or binging, you know, on either side. But really food's not something we can get away from or else it actually does, you know, lead to, can lead to death if somebody's, you know, starving themselves. And, you. And at the same time, we're faced with it throughout the day. And so really kind of looking to see what's the relationship between

intimacy and food and how has it become a way of survival and what ways is the eating disorder showing up for you in a way that a primary caregiver and attachment caregiver has not. And it's incredibly sad because it's, you know, only like an illusion. It's not a person, but it also could lead someone to like being able to survive. And, you know, in some ways there's such gratitude, you know, towards it, but it can also be ultimately killing the person. So it's that dichotomy of like it's allowed you to survive and if it continues it could actually end up killing you I think what's so interesting in sort of the parallels and like the sort of mirrors of the perpetrator and their victim here is that like Munchausen

by proxy is also a maladaptive coping, like factitious disorders, whether it's on yourself or by proxy, those are also maladaptive coping mechanisms. They're things that people do to get their needs met, to take care of themselves, essentially, that are also harming themselves and, in some cases, other people. I didn't recognize until talking to Angie the ways in which eating disorders are also maladaptive coping mechanisms. And people are doing it as a way to take care of themselves and that it's something that can get them through some other difficult thing. And also, it's not a viable long-term strategy because it's also harming you. What are some of the specific things that you see Joe struggling with in terms of their identity, in terms of their connection with the medical system, in terms of their

connection with their own body? Like, what do you think are some of the things that really are sort of specific to this form of abuse? One struggle that I see is a lot of times a struggle between figuring out what is, what's real versus what's not. So when something's happening in my body and I feel something, is that real? And my heart breaks thinking that there's a question of, is it real? It's heartbreaking because it touches on the abuse. It touches on, I've been told these stories, not only told these stories, I'm part of this abuse.

And how do I build a different relationship with my body like told these stories, not only told these stories, I'm part of this abuse. And, you know, how do I build a different relationship with my body and tune into my body and respond to the way that like my body needs and how much of the abuse starts to come in or gets tugged on within all of that? And does that mean then when I feel something in my body, do I begin to dismiss it? You know, because I'm fearful that like maybe there's not anything happening in my body, do I begin to dismiss it, you know, because I'm fearful that like, maybe there's not anything happening in my body. And so I need to just keep moving along and disconnect from my body. I feel like they have done so much work, you know, around tuning into their body and sifting through what's getting triggered, you know, on the past. And, you know, and some of that would hit on trauma in terms of like how other people

navigated the situation with them in the past, you know, while the abuse is going on, you know, the medical abuse and then outsiders in terms of how they were responding to the situation. And it, yeah, all of it's incredibly heartbreaking. Joe's feelings about doctors are complicated, to say the least. As we heard in one of our previous episodes, they often felt like safe adults to Joe, something that was in short supply in their childhood. But there's also some very real anger there, because ultimately, Joe was left in an abusive household. It's worth saying that doctors are in a difficult position in these cases, and this is a dynamic that's only getting more fraught in the wake of the Kowalski case that we covered last season. But once Joe had their medical records in hand, they realized that the doctors' concerns about them went all the way back to the beginning.

There's definitely doctors that were aware of what was going on by the time I was, I'd say, one and a half or two years old. If you look in my medical records, they started to make some very clear notes about these different things that my mom was doing, or they gave placebos because they knew that I wasn't really sick, or just how they would write things. It was very evident that they knew what was going on. And by the age of four, they started making reports about possible Munchausen by proxy, even though nothing ever came of that or happened from that. But there was also an anonymous letter that was written, I believe when I was four years old. I have no idea who wrote it. They called me Jojo in the note, which was something I went by when I was really little by close family. So it must have been someone that knew me really well. And they wrote a letter anonymously to the hospital that I would go to. And they said that they were concerned that my mom was giving me cancer medication because she had access to that. And once again, nothing ended up

coming of that or happening, but they did put that note. They had like a whole separate file that they kept at the hospital that my mom couldn't get access to that had all of the more serious sort of accusations or things that were going on. Why did your mom have access to cancer medication? Well, my mom also has Munchausen syndrome. And since she was pretty young, she has faked different ailments and illnesses. And supposedly, according to her, at least, she has had cancer at least three times that I've heard about. According to the research, previous Munchausen behavior is really common in Munchausen by proxy perpetrators. And anecdotally, it's come

up in almost every case I've looked at. There's also a high comorbidity with the cluster B personality disorders. So that's narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline personality disorders. And there's also a high instance of severe depression in these cases. So that's all to say that these are certainly people who need psychiatric help, and that's something that I do want to maintain some empathy for. Though whether perpetrators can ever safely be around children or vulnerable adults is another question entirely. It can be really problematic to talk about Munchausen by proxy as primarily a mental health disorder disorder because that often leads courts and child welfare entities to see the solution as getting some mental health help for mom. And that is sort of the end of things.

And that's not sufficient in these cases. Was she taking you to the same hospital over and over again? Were you guys in an area where there was – because a lot of times we hear about, you know, mothers taking their children to a bunch of different hospitals, and that's kind of one of the hallmarks of this abuse. Were you mostly seeing the same doctors? I lived in a very small town. The nearest town next to us was a 30-minute drive. And so for the most part, we did go to the same hospital. For the most part, I saw the same doctor for a lot of my childhood. And then there were some specialty doctors that I saw at like Children's specifically, but it was really just those two hospitals

for the most part that I went to. Were the doctors making reports to Child Protective Services? Were they making the reports to the police? Who were they reporting to? I get kind of confused because when I requested my records from CPS, there was never any note of any of that. And so that could just be because

they never followed up on it or thought that there was anything going on. I know at one point, I believe when I was four, there was a guardian ad litem that was assigned to my case. And there was a lot more reports that were made at that time. But once again, when I got records from CPS, there wasn't anything about any of this. So I'm not really sure where that discrepancy comes from. So you don't even know if there was ever an investigation into your mom? No idea. I know that they did some video surveillance and had video surveillance of her over reporting and of her possibly inducing vomiting on me by various means. But that's pretty much as far as it goes. There was the letter from the guardian ad litem where she at the time when like I said, I was about four,

she had written that her recommendation was for me to have more time with adults other than my parents. And her hope for me was for me to develop a self-identity of being a basically healthy individual, which is very interesting given the fact that at that point, I supposedly had all of these really severe illnesses and ailments. With everything that you know now, what do you think was going on with that guardian ad litem or really any of these adults within the system that that were supposed to be protecting you? Do you think they just weren't taking it seriously? Do you think they didn't understand that it was just lack of knowledge? What do you think was happening there, if you can guess? I think a lot of it was lack of knowledge, lack of understanding this type of abuse.

I know specifically for my pediatrician because I did confront her as an adult. What's up, Spotify? This is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour. We didn't have any guitar picks and we didn't have time to go to the store, so we placed an order on Prime

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So good. So exciting. I haven't, well, I haven't seen you in person since I came to confront you in 2018. Oh, it hasn't been that long. I was excited that when you came that I remembered that we had hidden some confidential files. I could say, you know, you're an adult now. You can have these files. And they had stuff in there I don't think that you had access to before. As we record this, Joe is sitting in the same studio with Dr. Wilson, who they have not seen in person since Joe marched in ready to confront the doctor they thought was responsible for all of their pain and suffering. These days,

Joe and Dr. Wilson are on great terms, and I'll let them explain how it all went down. I mean, it was like, I was in that class in college, and my normal psych class, and then we had talked about it, I was like oh my gosh this happened to me and then you know obviously I went through treatment and then while I was there and saw all the records like most of the highlighted records were all records that Dr. Wilson wrote and I was angry I was like she knew she knew and she let me stay there and that's like not okay um and I was like I'm I have to like go meet with her and tell her I'm alive and it's not thanks to her and just like teach her about this and so this doesn't happen again good for you and so I yeah

I remember calling to make an appointment and they were like, what? What do you mean? Like, none of it made sense. But I was persistent. I was like, I don't know what else to do. And I think that's like one of the hard parts is as an adult trying to get a hold of any doctors that you did see is so difficult. Unless like the doctor knows you and is like, oh, wait, yeah, let this happen. Usually, like I've been told, they'll be like, oh, we'll give them this message, but then they don't even do that. So it's like, and it's like a weird thing, right? If I'm like, oh, I want to talk to this doctor

that I saw as a kid to like talk about medical child abuse and what happened. Like that just doesn't make sense to a lot of people. So I've been very, very fortunate, one, in even getting my records. I, every day, work with people who can't get a hold of any of their records for a variety of reasons. And I wouldn't have even gotten a lot of the really more, like, severe notes and stuff if it hadn't been for Dr. Wilson in our in-person meeting. And so that's like, I'm very fortunate for that. And I've also been fortunate in the fact that my doctors did know and like were trying to help and have been like so kind in talking to me now as an adult. But I remember going in, I brought my friend Heidi and Heidi waited in the waiting room and I went in ready to like throw hands or something. Just kidding.

Metaphorically. Metaphorically throw hands. Yeah, I could never. I would never. But I was angry. And we just cried. We cried a lot. And she just told me that, yeah, that she was, like, surprised I was alive. And more than that, that I wasn't addicted to drugs or anything like that. And everything about how I viewed the situation changed in that moment. I think until that moment, I blamed the doctors. I thought this abuse was all the doctor's fault. And in that moment, I was like, oh, the doctors tried.

They did literally everything that they possibly could and are actually the reason that I'm alive. You've heard Joe say this, that someone kept them alive, a few times this season. And I want to underscore here that this is not hyperbole on Joe's part. One of the reasons we still advocate so strongly for reporting abuse, even though it can feel hopeless, especially in the current climate, is because slowing down the abuse or limiting the perpetrator's access to their victim, even temporarily, can mean the difference between life and death. So when Joe says this, they mean it literally. What do you remember about Joe?

Oh, I mean, she was a cute little thing and sweet and quiet most of the time. And started taking care of her when there were medical issues coming up or supposed medical issues. And then I was seeing you more frequently and trying to sort through what was going on with you. And I guess in a nutshell, it just went on for a while until I was getting very concerned and somewhat suspicious and trying to document things. And then her mother took her out of my care. Yeah. So what, do you remember about what flagged this as a possible abuse situation for you? What was the pattern that you were noticing develop? Exaggeration of symptoms. the mother seeming to be overly solicitous with myself and the medical people

where you were starting to get concerned that she was getting some secondary gain out of her child being ill a pattern of unusual symptoms that we couldn't really confirm. So you did take the step of reporting your suspicions of abuse. Yes. What happened when you did that? Well, it's the same thing that happens a lot of times is that you get a lot of questions about, do you really think this is true?

And isn't the parent just anxious? You know, like, well, in another case, not Joe's, but I took this to the correct persons in the county, and they told me, it is not a crime to lie to your doctor. So they didn't feel that someone lying was any type of crime or anything that they could investigate or prosecute. So they said, well, if we prosecuted everybody that lied to their doctor, then we'd have so many people in jail that, you know. And that's part of, that was a little bit ago where we were kind of talking a lot about Munchausen by proxy,

which put the focus on the parent. And now we've kind of gone to more saying that this is more like child medical abuse. So we need to look at it more as the medical abuse of the child rather than trying to figure out the state of mind of the parent who's doing it. But trying to get that through to people is very difficult. How do you distinguish as a pediatrician in terms of when you're going to report or not when it's an abuse situation potentially? How do you distinguish between is this an anxious parent or is this someone who is abusing their child? Well, you know, it's probably 99 anxious parents to everyone that's a child medical abuse.

And sometimes they'll maybe exaggerate a symptom because they want you to take them seriously. But their focus is on the child. And you can talk to them, and you get this understanding that they're worried about their child, and there's a real symptom there. And they're usually relieved once you sit down and talk to them and explain things to them and figure things out. I had lots of anxious parents. They loved their kids. And they learned to trust you, and you treat treat the kids and it's normal. But when we start getting into these weird symptoms

or when the parents have told us multiple different stories or I go back into those records and I find out they've been to six or seven different doctors and told them different stories that don't make sense. And I see that the kids had lots of interventions that I would consider harmful. Then I start to worry about the parent doing this as a way to abuse the child for whatever reason. Right. So very different to have a situation where you're seeing evidence of intentional deception to practitioners, right, than a parent that is anxious. Because, of course, I have two little kids. I think especially

with, you know, your first one, right? It's very normal to be anxious about everything, right? Yes. That's what I do every day. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's this, to my mind, pretty unwarranted fear that by raising awareness of the existence of this type of abuse that doctors are going to get sort of trigger happy about reporting and I don't think that that's really I don't worry that that's going to happen exactly for the reason you said right because if you were reporting on every parent that seemed a little anxious or who seemed like maybe they were exaggerating a situation then you would you know, a huge percentage of the parents that you're seeing. Well, and there's a lot of disincentives for us to report anyway.

I mean, there's a lot of time involved in this. It's certainly not reimbursed. There's a lot of people that will say that you're doing this for wrong reasons or question you about it. There's a lot of reasons not to over-report. There's even legal reasons. I mean, you can get sued. There's lawsuits out there for people who brought up issues of possible medical abuse.

And the parents have sued them or gone on media and sued the doctor who suggested it. I have seen horrific abuse by parents under the guise of medical issues, whether it's actually causing the injury to their child and blaming it on a medical or a mental health condition or actually causing the physicians or surgeons to abuse their child. It's a much more horrific type of abuse than, like I said, hitting you with a baseball bat. Yeah, and I get the sense a lot of people don't quite understand how dangerous this form of abuse really can be because if it becomes severe and it often

escalates over time, we see that pattern a lot, it can very easily be life-threatening. I don't get very much follow-up on these patients, and a lot of them don't make it. First time Joe came back to me, I was like, hey, hallelujah, she's alive. She's alive. I want to tell you about a show I love, Truer Crime from Cilicia Stanton. My favorite true crime shows are the ones where I feel like the creator has a real stake in what they're talking about. And this is definitely the case with Cilicia, who got interested in covering crime because, like many of us in this genre, she experienced it. In each episode of the show,

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While we were in Hutchinson together, a trip that, as you can imagine, had triggers around literally every corner, Joe opened up about one of the consequences of the extreme trauma that they experienced as a child. Jo has been diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder, or DID. I have DID, but I am starting to kind of take on more of the new language around, like, multiplicity. Because I think that, especially, like, with where I'm at in my own healing and things like that,

I don't see it as a disorder in any way. It's a product of severe trauma for sure. And it's just how my brain operates and works. And there's just a lot of different alters or parts all kind of fragmented off, living little lives. I think since being here, I think in my normal life, I guess, outside of this trip, it's been like a lot more like co-consciousness is kind of what the term that we use a lot. It's like we're all on a bus and sometimes I'm driving the bus and so

that means like I have access to like my body and my words and things like that and then sometimes I'm on the back of the bus and I have no ability to do anything but I can see what's happening and I feel like it's gotten to a point for the most part where I feel like all the parts that need to be around are kind of like driving the bus together and working together so there's not what we would say like time loss so I'm not like forgetting things or ending up in weird places or like things like that but sometimes that happens depending on maybe what's going on but it's been like more cohesive I feel like in my daily life.

Since being here, I feel like, it almost feels like constant switches. I feel like different parts are like, oh, am I supposed to be out right now? Wait, no, it's supposed to be me. I think it's supposed to be me. And it's just this constant back and forth. And then I just feel kind of everything,

my brain feels kind of, like, cloudy or foggy. So I just feel like it's, I'm in this weird dissociative sort of state. Like, I'm still aware of who I am, like, where I am in time and space and all of that. Dissociative disorders are a deeply misunderstood and stigmatized phenomenon. And this is something I was keen to learn more about, partly to understand Joe better and be able to support my friend, but also because this is important to the work of helping Munchausen by proxy survivors, many of whom experience intense levels of dissociation as a reaction to the severe childhood trauma they've experienced. Even among therapists, thorough knowledge of DID is pretty rare, so we were lucky to

find a therapist who specifically works with clients who have DID. My name's Jackie. I'm a trans therapist in Austin, Texas. I do a plethora of things. Right before this, I was finishing my master's in social work. And for the past year, I was working with the local mental health authority doing case management for people that were going through schizophrenia, DID, some of the more trauma-based. I mean, they're all trauma-based mental health issues, but like those tend to be really intense and chronic over the lifespan.

So that's most of the work that I do there. What causes DID? A really messed up lottery system of like trauma happening whenever you're young. And usually when trauma happens at a young age, people may end up having post-traumatic stress disorder or some sort of personality disorder or like did and really it's just there's a million different factors that can go into like what ends up happening with somebody like their intergenerational trauma just like the trauma of their like ancestors um the way that they were raised by their parents, specific like big T traumas that like might happen like in one instant,

like a tornado or some sort of natural disaster. So I really, I wish I could tell you more specifically, like if this happens, then this happens. But it's really like if this happens, all of this could happen. Sounds like this is maybe one of the less well-studied disorders that, I mean, has there been a lot of research on this? How has that research sort of evolved over the last several years, 10 years, what have you? I have opinions on the research. Yes, please. Yeah, so I guess since the inception of psychology, research about DID has been very dehumanizing.

And we can see that portrayed in media as well, how characters that have DID are extremely dangerous or are totally not in control of what's going on in their bodies. But the reality of it is that these are normal people are like um are totally not in control of what's going on in their bodies but like the the real the reality of it is that like these are normal people that just are a little bit more split than the rest of us and like there's different like therapy modalities that believe that all of us are somehow parts but there's the integration of all of our parts are a lot closer and the trauma of like going through something very heavy could like

split those parts up further. When you're working with clients that have DID, what sort of things do you work on in terms of treatment and coping mechanisms and that kind of thing? Yeah. So the primary work that I've seen in my neck of the woods is usually psychoeducation, which is just, like, naming the things that are happening or that they're experiencing, giving them, like, words that could, like, resonate with them and make sense, or giving them tools to, like, explain to their peers or to their friends or to their family, like, why this, like, thing exists and how this is not like a scary thing and this is simply just another like state of being that a lot of people have have gone through and it's not something that needs to be othered or cured or fixed. Yeah so it's mostly like destigmatizing work that we do.

Joe explained to me that for them DAD feels like being on a bus full of people. Sometimes you're the passenger and sometimes you're the driver. They can typically observe what is happening, whether they're in the driver's seat or not, but not always. Jackie explains another way to conceive of this experience. I would say it's a lot like how a family tries to navigate one part of the family having a hard time. So like in like a four person household, like a kid is like struggling with school and the rest of the family is just trying to help them like support their goals to do the things that they want to do. So it could be very much like that, just like all of it happens inside one body instead of everyone has their own body and like this reality that we're in.

As Jackie mentions here, the depictions we see of DID in popular culture are not good. Multiplicity is either played for comedic effect, as in the popular Showtime series The United States of Tara, and I love you, Toni Collette, but yikes. Or people with DID are portrayed as untrustworthy and dangerous, as in the 2016 M. Night Shyamalan film Split. I've never seen a case like this before. 23 identities live in Kevin's body. Did something happen?

So I spoke to someone who works regularly with folks in this community to give us a more realistic picture. I'm Jade Miller. I have been a peer support worker for about five years now for people mostly who are extreme trauma survivors and all have some kind of dissociative disorder. Jade has a complex and harrowing history of childhood trauma. And after facing numerous barriers in trying to get mental health treatment for her own dissociative identity disorder, she developed a network to better inform and help those living with DID. Can you talk a little bit about what does the media get wrong about multiplicity? killer personality. So I don't think any multiple is any more likely to be a serial killer than anyone else in any random cross section of the population. And honestly, like because of our

trauma histories, most of us are more likely to be hurt by someone else than we are to hurt someone. So I think that's probably one of the biggest things. And I think too, that they make a lot of mistakes about like portraying the switching that we do as this like big, dramatic, noticeable, like dissociation is about hiding and blending in and being able to function even when we shouldn't really be able to function. So I have met some systems that do switch very dramatically, but that's not common. That's not usually the norm for multiple systems. Yeah, because I'm thinking about when it's been portrayed on screen, you know, it's like the person like suddenly turns around and

they're like wearing a different hat or something and they like have a completely different voice and they're like, so-and-so's here. And it's like, obviously extremely cartoonish. I mean, I'd love to hear from you, you know, if you can give us sort of a better viewpoint on what that feels like, what you mostly see. You know, obviously no person's experience is monolith, but like what is a more typical presentation of being a multiple? if you were around someone who was having that experience of switching, like, would you notice typically? Or would it be, you know, what would that normally present like? Well, I think for me personally, because I have the knowledge I have, I am more likely to notice. But I think by and large, culturally, it probably happens a lot and people are socialized not to notice. So it could feel more like an energy

shift from the person, or it could feel like a mood shift. That's probably what people call it most of the time. If they're seeing that in someone that they're close to and not comprehending that, no, this person is actually a multiple, they probably see things that look like extreme mood shifts and they may be extreme sometimes, but they may not even be that extreme all the time. Rarely do people use a different voice. But I mean, the voice that we have is the voice that we have. So I mean, they might be using a slightly different tone or a slightly different, I don't know, like timbre or voice, but I don't know that it would be that noticeable unless you know what you're looking for. I really liked this metaphor.

It said it feels like they're on a bus full of people and sometimes they're driving the bus and sometimes someone else is driving the bus. They're always there, but like they're not always completely at the wheel. And that sometimes that's been very extreme where they had, you know, periods where they didn't like sort of got somewhere that they didn't know how they got there and that kind of thing. And that was really scary. But these days, it's mostly like, they're always aware of their surroundings, but sometimes they're just not completely in the driver's seat. Is that sort of, I mean, again, I think everyone probably has a slightly different experience of it. But I mean, is your experience kind of analogous to that? Or do you have sort of a different way of conceptualizing it? It is these days. It wouldn't have been in the beginning. Like in the beginning,

it was more like you're either driving or you're like in the back of the bus. Okay. Okay. That's a more extreme version of dissociation. That must be really terrifying. It can be. It definitely can be. And I mean, I think people don't necessarily understand that like there are situations you can be. It definitely can be. And I mean, I think people don't necessarily understand that there are situations you can be in as a dissociative person that are also traumatizing. I mean, there was a time when there was just so many traumatic things going on that I, as a part, wasn't present for about a month. And when I came back, people don't understand that like, this is traumatizing too, to realize that you've missed a month and you don't know what's happening with work and you don't know how your child is and you don't know anything. So that itself can be traumatizing.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what does that, what does that feel like? I mean, do you feel like you're sort of literally haven't been there and you sort of, does it, you experience it as though you sort of almost black out for a month and then you're back? And I mean, how do, like during one of those periods, how were other people understanding what was happening to you or were they not? They weren't. So it's like someone came into your house and flipped the calendar and changed the clock. And that's all you know. And there's evidence of things that have happened in these other dates that supposedly went by, but you don't have any neural traces to it. Wow. Yeah. And that must be extremely isolating. It sounds like there's also sort of a spectrum of dissociation that people can just get lost in thought while you're driving and you're sort of on autopilot and you don't remember the ride home

so that's a mild experience of dissociation and then you've got like moderate where you may have like extreme mood swings and maybe some loss of memory loss of continuity between those mood swings but not not super extreme doesn't disrupt your life, isn't super noticeable. And then you have like the full-blown multiple identities who are operating independently and usually outside your awareness. And that's when you talked about the amnesic barriers, is that what you're talking about where you don't have memories of what the other parts are experiencing? Yes. So they're not sort of in communication with each other. Correct. And that sounds, I mean, that sounds like it would be a pretty significant barrier to

functioning. Yeah, it definitely can be. Now, most people who are multiples from trauma do have functioning parts. Otherwise, they wouldn't make it so long. They wouldn't make it at all, probably. But a lot of times over the many years that they have to utilize those functioning parts. Otherwise they wouldn't make it so long. They wouldn't make it at all probably. But a lot of times over the many years that they have to utilize those functioning parts, the energy that it takes to keep those amnesic barriers in place and even like keep their functioning parts functioning, they just wear out. They get exhausted. If you don't have someone reinforcing those barriers, they'll just break down naturally over time. But it usually takes a while. It usually takes until 50s or 60s. Wow. And so that's sort of the concept of the functioning parts are being protected from knowing the full scale of what happened. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's really heartbreaking.

For those of us that have someone in our life that struggle with these things, what can we do to be a good support for that person? I think a really good start would be to just ask that person what they need from you, what they need to be comfortable, what they need to feel supported, because there are probably going to be parts inside that are more shy. And there may be parts inside that really do want to have outside friends. Like, I don't know if people understand that, like, sometimes just being a member of a system can be very lonely. Like, all you have is your other inside people. And that's not to undermine, like, the importance of them and the camaraderie that can be there. But just being able to have friends, like, as an inside part can be really significant. And I mean, if you think about how much trauma is involved

with developing DID, a lot of times they didn't grow up having the just everyday experience of having a bug that they can watch a movie and eat popcorn with. Like you don't have to be willing to listen to flashback memories of extreme trauma. You can just like be open-minded and let whoever, whichever part wants to be out, just be out and be cool with it you could ask um your person like do your parts want to be noticed when they come and go um if they do then maybe you can ask every now and then if you perceive like an energy shift and just say like hey who's with me now and just ask um i think the best start though would be to ask your friend because they'll tell you and it may be very individualized.

Something that has struck me often as I've been making this show over the past several years is that we as humans always have more in common than we think we do. And it's worth finding a way in to understanding one another's experiences. If you've never experienced it, dissociative identity disorder, much like the Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy phenomenon that we talk about on this show, can be tempting to put in a box marked scary shit that will never ever affect me. And I honestly wonder sometimes how much the appeal of true crime content is doing just this,

holding the things that we're afraid of at arm's length as though, quote, don't get murdered, as the latter half of one famous show's tagline goes, could actually be actionable advice. But I think this is the wrong way to look at things that scare or unsettle us. And I think that leaning into our curiosity, as long as it's paired with empathy, can take us in

the other direction. Since having these conversations with Jackie and Jade and talking more to Joe about their experiences of multiplicity, it struck me what an extraordinary thing the human mind is, how it finds such ingenious ways to survive the seemingly unsurvivable. And there's so much of this that I also just find relatable. You know, on some level, we're all many different people at once. We have the person we are around our closest friends and our family, the person we are to our children, the person we are at work, the childhood self that sometimes comes up at a moment's notice.

And DID is certainly a much more extreme version of this, and that's not to undermine the very real challenges, but we all contain multitudes, don't we? As Joe and I have grown closer over the years, their multiples have begun to see me as a safe person. And occasionally, they reach out. And I find this really touching. Honestly, I feel honored.

And if it sounds strange, it's really not. They let me know when they're there, and Joe lets me know when they're back. It's just like when a friend lets you in on any vulnerable piece of their history. It just makes me feel closer to Joe. Next time, we go to the doctors. The TV show, that is.

Throughout the show, Jordan has claimed her mother inflicted repeated medical abuse and that she's a victim of Munchausen by proxy. Her mother, Donna, has a different story. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar. And administrative support from Nola Karmush.

Music provided by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Shupak. With additional music and sounds from SoundSnap. And thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the Wild West, y'all. And these experiences are

what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify, as Britney revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Britney is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories

of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.