Nobody Should Believe Me - S05 E09: Out of the Shadows

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Episode 8 was originally our season finale, but a source we’d been speaking to for months bravely decided to go on the record. This is Andrea’s conversation with Chalice Howard, Sophie’s friend of nearly 10 years.  With many similarities, being white single moms of adoptive black daughters and a shared faith, Chalice and Sophie found a kinship with each other despite living on opposite sides of the country. Chalice shares about her relationship with Sophie and the girls, the journey to learning about and accepting what Sophie’s been doing to C, and why she decided to contact Andrea. She describes how things came to a head with Sophie and gives a touching message to C and M. *** Please remember that this conversation is from Chalice’s perspective and experience, so we are not able to fact check certain dates/times, nor her conversation with Sam. We have invited  Sophie and other members of the Hartman family onto the podcast to tell their  side of the story, but at the time of publishing have not received a response.. As always, the door remains open if Sophie or other members of the Hartman family would like to tell their version of events. *** Links and Resources: Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy is now available from St. Martin's Press wherever books are sold. This is my first foray into nonfiction, and I co-authored the book with none other than friend of the show, Detective Mike Weber. This true crime saga covers three of Mike's most impactful cases and follows along with his game changing tenure at the Tarrant County DA's office. As a listener of this show, I think you will love the book. And if you are an audiobook fan, just know that I am the narrator. You can find The Mother next door in all formats right now wherever books are

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If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hello, it's Andrea, and today we have something really special for you that's a bit of a first here on Nobody Should Believe Me. In the months that we were reporting on the Sophie Hartman case, we reached out to dozens of potential sources to try and get as complete a picture about this case as possible. And while a number of people had quite a lot to say, the majority of them didn't feel comfortable going on record. And listen, I get it. There's nothing in it for anybody to talk to me. I

always hope that people will be willing to speak up on behalf of the kids, but everyone has to evaluate their risk in getting involved. And I respect that. But then, last fall, I heard from someone that I wasn't even aware of. And last week, that person decided that she wanted to go on the record. I've been out and about doing stuff for the book the last couple of weeks, and a lot of folks have been asking me how I handle being so knee deep in all this dark stuff all the time. And the reality is it can be hard, but it's also extremely rewarding a lot of the time, especially in those moments where I know

that the show has reached someone who really needed to hear it. And while I bear witness to an awful lot of horrific behavior in this line of work, I also get to witness people like Chalice, who we're talking to today, make the incredibly brave choice to see the truth and speak up.

And that's what keeps me going. So without further ado, please meet my brave friend, Chalice Howard. I wanted to start just by asking you, how do you know Sophie Hartman? How did you two meet? Yeah, so Sophie and I met back in 2015. We connected online through an adaptive parents Facebook group, I believe, something of that nature. We had both spent time overseas specifically, I had spent time in East Africa. And we had a lot of mutual friends on Facebook. So yeah, we had connected I believe the summer of 2015 and then met in person the following summer when she was over on the East coast. So yeah.

And what was your relationship with her throughout these past 10 years? Honestly, I would have said until very recently that she was one of my closest friends. It was a long distance relationship, but our girls are the same ages. I adopted my girls through the foster care system. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and her girls are obviously from overseas, but we were both white moms raising kids of color and so, and single moms. And so if anybody could understand the nuances and the unique struggles of being a single parent to two little girls from trauma. It was Sophie and yeah, I mean we talked on a weekly basis for almost the past decade. Nicole Soule If you can go back and I know you've been on a real journey so it can be hard to put

yourself back in that mindset. But like, if someone would have asked you before all of this, like, what is, like, who is Sophie? What is she like? Like, what do you think you would have said about her? Um, it's such a mind warp to go back. It's so hard to think about myself unknowing what I know now. But if you had asked me even last September, October, I would have said that Sophie is one of my best friends, a loving and devoted mom, someone who has been through unspeakable trials and has been

tested and tried and proven faithful. I am in a really different, more evolved place of faith, but I'm still deeply a person of faith. And so we had a connection through our shared faith. I probably, if anybody had asked me about Sophie, I probably would have gotten emotional because I was so proud of her and proud of watching her walk through the fire for so many years. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot now knowing what I know. There's a lot more red

flags that have come to the surface. But I believed the best. And my experience of her was that she was someone who just could really hang on when hope was thin. And you know, obviously given that you've known Sophie for 10 years, you knew her when this case with her younger daughter, C, and this investigation was happening. And you even came out to the Seattle area to visit with her during that, is that right? Yeah, twice. And what was your understanding of what was happening in that case? Yeah, so I remember exactly where I was when I got a Facebook message from Sophie saying, it's an emergency, please call me. And I think it was maybe a day after the girls

were taken, after CPS had come, and you know all of her things had been taken, her phone and her computer, so it took her a while to be able to get in touch with people. But she had eventually gotten to a friend's, been able to log into Facebook, and said, like, here's the number to call me at, call me. And when she said it's an emergency, call me, and it was kind of an odd circumstance, I immediately thought the worst because I thought that something horrible had happened to see. I thought she had died. I remember calling Sophie and she was just kind of monotone, like in shock. And she was just like, they took the kids. They took the kids. CPS came and took the kids. And I was

during the pandemic, I was in the middle of my work day and I remember like, it felt like the walls around me were like shifting. I was just like, what? And then she was like, they think I'm lying about everything. They took the kids. And I mean, I think we just sat on that call with like the silence and the chaos of it all. And I just kept saying like, no, no, no,

like this is impossible, what's happening? No, like I had so many questions but didn't even know how to formulate them. But I think she may have even said something like, I was always afraid this could happen. And yeah, my understanding was, oh my gosh, I had known that all through the years she had been seeing all of these symptoms in C that no one else was seeing, the doctors weren't picking up on. wow, this has really happened. Like, she's always been working so hard to get people to see what she's to see her life, see what she lives with on a daily basis. And it's come to this, they have

really taken her kids and think that she's lying. So yeah, that's what I thought happened. And you know, you mentioned that when you got this phone call, that the first place that your mind went, was that something terrible had happened to See. And you know, we talked a lot about what Sophie had communicated about how precarious See's health was to many of the people in her life. What was your understanding of C's condition? That it was life threatening. She had this horrible neurological disease called AHC and the line that I heard over

and over was she could leave us at any time. She could leave us at any time. She could leave us at any time. Any episode could put her into any kind of organ failure. And at that point, episodes were happening on daily, weekly basis. Hospitalizations were the regular. And so, yeah, I mean, it was horrific, but it wasn't, I was kind of preparing myself in being friends with Sophie that anything could happen at any time and she could be gone.

And yeah, it was just this really fragile tension we lived in, you know, it's really wild to be friends with someone whose child is in a medically fragile position that they're just kind of always hanging in the balance. But you know, we celebrated the good days and I just tried to be present as much as I could from afar on the bad days which were a lot. When Sophie would tell you, none of these doctors are taking this seriously, like this is, I'm, you know, and even the sort of narrative of like, I'm the only one who's seeing this, did that, like, how did, how did that strike you? Like, did that, did anything seem strange

about that to you at the time? Or were you just sort of thinking, oh, like, this is something that happens, like, you know, where doctors don't take something seriously, or they dismiss other's concerns? What was your sort of take on that at the time? I mean, honestly, I was completely, I was totally bought in. And my partner now is a pediatric occupational therapist. And so our relationship goes back over the past five or six years. And as a pediatric OT, she's in a position where there's oftentimes that she will interact with,

she sees kids on a, some of her kids, she sees once or twice a week. And so she'll see things that the pediatrician might not see or she'll see things that other doctors don't see. And she at times can be an advocate for a parent in those situations and, you know, communicate to doctors what she's seeing

through a therapeutic lens. And so because Sophie was always in crisis, I see now that I just learned to not ask a lot of questions. I didn't really have any reason at that time to question. Yeah, I just thought this is something that they're missing. And I also knew like she homeschooled her kids and they weren't necessarily out and about as much. I think my family and I have a much more social life

and my kids are in public school. And so, you know, I was just like, oh, you know, well, their life is a little bit isolated, so it makes sense that nobody else is seeing what she's seeing. She's providing the best environment for C, being there for her 24-7, keeping her in a safe environment.

So I just kind of rationalized, like, I guess that's why nobody else sees it. Yeah. And as far as the girls, you know, and you mentioned that you have girls the same age, and did you get to spend much time with the two of them? Yeah. Surprisingly, yes, we were literally on opposite sides of the country, but that summer of 2016, they were on the East Coast and they came and spent a few days with us. And that just kind of kicked off like what felt like such a dream come true of a friendship. Like we spent probably three or four days together, they came to our home. We went all

around Charleston and we always said, like we're twin families, everyone has a buddy. Like Sophie and I have each other, C and my daughter Myla, you know, we're buddies and then M and Aliyah. And that was pretty dreamy, you know? And so we saw them that summer. And then I think the following year,

they came to the East Coast again for treatment for sea at Duke. And then we made it a tradition that we would spend that time with them when they would be over here and kind of go and brighten those days where they would, sea would be getting treatment at Duke. And yeah, it was an opportunity for us to spend time together.

We'd get matching outfits for our girls. It was always, we'd make it a big deal for C. So it was like a fun thing. She and Milo, you know, we'd stay in a hotel and she and my daughter Milo would have matching jammies and we got them little matching jean jackets. And it was just like this fun thing. It's like, oh, we're going to make like this big,

scary Duke trip, like fun. And that was such a joy to do that. And our girls like, C and Myla are just like the funniest little quirkiest peas in a pod. And they adore each other. They're weird, really matches each other and they adore each other. Their weird really matches each other in the best way. So yeah, we did that for a couple of years. And then we, just a few years ago, we went on a vacation together. Again, they were back on the East Coast

and we went to Myrtle Beach and stayed a few days in an Airbnb. And in between all of those in real life connections, our kids would FaceTime constantly all the time, especially our little girls. They could just, I'd hand over my phone, they'd go set up in their rooms and they'd like play through the phone

and give each other tours of each other's rooms and introduce their dogs. And they could just gab and gab and gab forever. So yeah, it was long distance, but it was very real. And we really came to know each other's kids. And I mean, sometimes I'd call, Sophie would call and my daughter, my little one would see, oh, it's Sophie calling. And she'd answer the phone and she'd be like,

I'm talking to her, you know, and they'd go off and talk in the other room. And we prioritized the friendship because it was so special. It was so unique. That's like, what are the odds? Like Sophie and I are maybe a year apart. Our kids are all a year apart.

And yeah, again, everybody had a buddy. So yeah, that's really sweet. Yeah, I mean, I like one of my best friends has a, that's really sweet. Yeah, I mean, one of my best friends has a daughter that's a few years older than my daughter, but they are super buddies. And truly, it's the dream, right? Otherwise, you kind of have to try and make friends with the parents of whoever your kid makes friends with.

And that's a whole crap shoot. So yeah, I totally understand why that would be, especially because you and Sophie had all these unique things in common with the transnational adoption and being people of faith and all of that. This is one of the only times I've made a season and told the story without starting with a direct source. And I think one of the hardest things for me

about covering this was that I did not want C and M to be reduced to sort of characters from a true crime drama. And most of what we know about them was from Sophie's narrative about them. When sort of with M, the gymnastics stuff was the most prevalent and then with C, obviously the story of illness and the story of her impending death

was really the story that Sophie told in, you know, the documents and accounts that we had. Sounds like you really love these girls. And I mean, can you tell us like, from your perspective, like just a little bit more about who they are. Yeah. This will make me pretty emotional

because they are so special. They are, they're such special little girls. M is so bright and so thoughtful and so wholehearted. She's always been an amazing writer. And when they were homeschooled, like especially over the pandemic, when she would do different writing assignments, she would, Sophie would send them to me or

she would call and read them. I mean just she has such a gift of writing and articulating her thoughts and she's you know been through so much in her little life and she's just fun and funny and has such a pure heart. Um, she was obviously a gymnast, so she's just tough as nails. And um, yeah, you know, when our kids were together, like I remember she would watch all these tutorials and how to do her makeup on YouTube.

And then when we went on that little trip together in Myrtle Beach, she did my daughter's's makeup and I remember her telling Aliyah like just how beautiful she looked and she's just full of so much light and just to like love on my kid and um she's really special like she's the kind of kid like when you talk to her, you're just like, oh, you're a deep well, you know? And so she's really cool. And yeah, she's such a gift. See, again, we would just always get the biggest kick of how weird and wonderful our little ones were. They're just like typical second

borns like just off the rails like just anything that comes to their head is coming out of their mouth and yeah she had had and has I'm hoping, guessing a vibrancy about her and a silliness and just so many things that she's into. And yeah, she's such a cutie and so sweet. I mean, both girls are just overwhelmingly sweet and fun to be around and thoughtful. And yeah, they're pretty special. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

It's really nice to just hear some some stuff about who they are as people. So tell us where this takes a turn. How did you come to find out about the podcast? Yeah, so back in the fall, Sophie had actually reached out to me and told me about the podcast and said that she had found out that different people in her life were being contacted because she was being investigated for this podcast that was going to come out.

And it's another one of those moments, like I remember where I was sitting and I just thought gross, like how horrific, like who is going to dig into her life, like they are recovering from so much, they've just been through hell and back and you know I was there when everything was released to the media and seeing your dear friend on the headlines with the most horrific headlines is just, it's like a gut punch, you know? And so I thought, man, they've been coming in for a landing the last couple of years since this whole case. And now here it goes again. I was so angry and I talked to my partner about it. And I remember saying saying like, you know,

this sick podcast is gonna be delving into her story and don't listen to it. We're not gonna give them another single listen. Like we can't do that. And my partner who's a little more level-headed was like, you know, if Sophie's going to be investigated on this podcast and it has the potential to really mess with her life, like, we, like, is this some little known podcast that, like, 10 people are going to listen to it? What

is it? Like, let's find out. And so we did start listening to it. I definitely did not tell Sophie I was doing that, but I thought, yeah, what is this whole thing? And so I started at season one. And so this would be the beginning of the end because that whole time back in the fall is kind of a blur in my mind because as I start listening it is undeniable how the moms in the seasons that you are covering, just feel so familiar. And eerily familiar.

And just like, even as I'm listening, I'm like, this is weird that it's similar because they couldn't be any more different than Sophie. Like all throughout the process of beginning to educate myself on what actually is munchausen by proxy and What how does this manifest and what does it actually look like? I Still had some cognitive dissonance, you know

I knew I was listening to this podcast out of protection for my friend and to know what she was about to be up against. And I've told you, Andrea, like I went in wanting to hate it and was immediately struck by your sincerity and the warmth and the kindness in your voice, you sounded like someone I would be friends with, which was weird. So then I went through this whole wrestling of like, this really sucks. This must just be someone who's like,

has a good heart and is on a good mission, but it's getting it wrong. You know, maybe she's gotten it right in these other cases, but like, she's gotta be, this is wrong. She's all wrong here. And, but I didn't stop listening, I couldn't stop listening. And over the course of the next week or two,

like my world just started to cave in because every red flag that I had been suppressing for so long just came into Clearview and especially listening alongside my partner we're both just kind of looking at each other like why why does it feel like she's used a playbook why does it feel like what's happening what What is happening? How is it possible? This is my friend.

This is my like, this is like a hero of a friend who's only, you know, been overcoming all of these hardships. It's just, it's hard, even now, it's hard to even put words to, but there was just the most disturbing similarity between some of the narcissistic behaviors of the moms that you investigated. And when I could zoom out and look objectively, which

I still don't really know how I did that, I think the evidence was presented to me in a deeply compelling educational way. And yeah, it just all started to click and it was horrible. I genuinely could not be more excited to tell you about our next sponsor because I am obsessed with this brand. I had already done some holiday shopping for other people on Quince because I had heard so much about their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I got one for my husband and I got a Quince gift card for my daughter's teacher.

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shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich Schmeichsenbach. And perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich Schmeichsenbach. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe

Me On The Air was quite the rollercoaster. Podcasting is just the Wild West, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner,

You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator, Brittany Ard, took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell

their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes. So Sophie told you about the podcast, but she didn't tell you whose sister I was, did she? No, no. I'm just listening to the podcast and I skipped around a lot because I knew about the Kowalski

case so I'm like, okay, she's covering this Hopi Bara case. I don't really know that much about this person but I am kind of interested in her take on the Kowalski case. So I think I was just jumping around a lot kind of chaotically looking at like, you know, the titles of the different episodes, like looking for one that's going to be so outlandish that I could just drop this podcast and be done and be like, okay, that's just some salacious, like somebody on a bent to get a lot of hits

for their true crime podcast. So I was jumping all over and I knew that you had this sister, and that was also like a really compelling piece of it. It's like, oh, well, this has happened to her family, so she probably sees it more than most people does cause she's had to live through this, you know, or whatever. Um, but again, remember exactly where I was when you said the name Megan Carter and just,

I like sank to the floor in the kitchen. Um, it's like putting away dishes, listening with my AirPods. And Megan Carter was a hero to me. Megan Carter was someone who had carried my friend. I flew out to Seattle maybe three weeks after Sophie's kids got taken away and she was in a transitional living situation in a friend's basement. And I went and stayed with her there and, you know, it was all so fresh. They had just retained a lawyer and, you know, the kids had just come out of foster care

and been placed with her parents. So everything, it was just fresh wreckage everywhere. And we're just trying to see it path forward. I was there the weekend that she first met with her attorneys with Adam Shapiro and that all happened while I was there so it's very new but I had heard oh my gosh we've retained this attorney who has done one of these cases before and there's been a mom just like this who's been falsely accused,

and that lives right in the area. And I just thought, what provision from God? Here's another mom who's been through this. And so immediately, Megan was someone who was going to be a pillar of hope for Sophie. I remember Sophie telling me the number of days that her kids had been taken away, and so it kind of gave Sophie this anchor of you know you're just in panic mode like when am I going to get my kids back and so Megan was able to say this is going

to be a long process and and you got to suit up and get your head in the game but you can win this thing and I just remember thinking what a gift of grace that she has someone who's gone before her and can be the beacon of hope. And I read about Megan's story online and I knew the names of her kids. And, you know, I would have, I would get picture, I would check in on Sophie after I left Seattle and there would be selfies of her and Megan, you know, that it's like, oh, an unexpected friendship, you know, out of all of this horrificness. And so I'm listening to this podcast, but was so deeply moved by your story and what your family had gone through.

And so when I heard Megan Carter, when I had to grapple with Megan Carter is not who I thought she was. Maybe Megan Carter is not a hero. Oh my God. I came upstairs. I came to, my partner was getting ready for bed, washing her face, and I was just like, you have to sit down. And I remember just trying to explain. It's so hard to explain. I feel like, in a way, it sounds like I'm being

really dramatic, like I hit the floor and I can't think. But it's, when you find out that someone is not who you thought they were, I mean, it flips your world on its head. Rachel knew the name Megan Carter because Megan Carter was a hero and someone who stood by the Hartman family. That was really when it all kind of, there was no going back at that point.

No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely earth shattering when you find something like this out. And that is just like, I think a deeply shared experience for everyone who goes through a case, right? It's just like, yeah, it's one of those things where you remember exactly where you were, you know, there's like a before and after of your whole life with that kind of thing. So at some point, I get an email that was sent to like the, you know, general email box for the show. And was anonymous and but I thought oh this

has to be about Sophie. Can you tell me like what made you decide to reach out to me directly? I remember sending that message on Instagram. And I think I said something like, I have been listening to your podcast, I'm trembling writing this, I feel like nothing but a traitor, but I can't refute what's been presented through your podcast.

And I believe that you're investigating my friend. And I just needed to connect. Like I needed more answers and I needed some things confirmed. And so I remember initially I sent a message on Instagram and then you can like unsend. So I like sent it and I like unsent it like an hour later, just like in a panic, like, what am I doing? This is Sophie, like I can't do this.

I just remember sending and unsending that and I would send it and I'd be like, no, this is the next right step. I have to dig deeper. I have so many questions. I was still just like, maybe I'll connect with Andrea and I'll find out she's full of shit or she'll be like really invasive or I don't know.

I don't know what I was hoping for. I think part of me wanted answers and part of me wanted to just be able to throw the whole thing out. I just remember like weeping in between all of that, thinking like, I felt like such a traitor. I remember I said that in my email, this feels awful and evil.

How could you? And I kept asking myself, well, why don't you just go to Sophie? Tell her what you've heard and go to your friend. This is your friend. You share so much. And I knew that I couldn't do that. I knew somehow that bringing it up would be bad news.

And so yeah, I finally sent that email and you know, sent it anonymously and said that I wanted to completely keep my anonymity and you told me that you took that part of your job really seriously and yeah, that was the reaching out. Yeah, and then so shortly after that message came in, we got on the phone and I think we talked for like, I don't even, like two and a half hours maybe? We talked for a long time. It was at least two or three hours.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean it was just really extraordinary to hear from you. You know, I'm like, I'm aware that like, my voice is going out into the world without me and that people are listening to it. And you know, you hope it, you hope it moves people. And one of the things that I always hope and I'm like, I hope this show reaches the people it needs to reach, right? Like that's the whole point of it. Right. Um, and so I was very moved by point of it, right? And so I was very moved by the fact that it reached you. And it is deeply ironic that Sophie is the person who made that happen. Yeah, it was kind of amazing to like, just have these like, you know, lengthy conversations. I mean, the reality is not everyone, most people in fact, don't deal with coming to this realization like the same way that I did, right? Because we had really parallel

experiences of, I really remember, you know, like that conversation with my parents, where we finally sat down and like said the thing and said what it was. I remember having that conversation with my parents where we finally just said it all out loud. And it was, it was like, it was like a tear in the fabric of the universe, you know? And, and then we were grappling with what to do next. And I felt all those same things that, you know, you have gone through feeling like a traitor, feeling like I was betraying her, knowing that there was no possibility of sort of confronting her directly about it. Because I think I suspect maybe you have had some similar experiences with Sophie, because it sounds like you knew that, right? That's like one of someone you're really, really close to,

you would hopefully be able to sort of sit down with them and say like, Hey man, I'm having these feelings and I'm just like, I need to talk this through. And because you can't sort of have that like boulder of doubt, you know, in the middle of your friendship. And like, yeah, I'd had enough previous experiences with trying to sort of confront my sister on things or sort of trying to, you know, like, like, hold her accountable in some way or like asking her questions when

I had questions and getting that shut down and being dealt with this like really emotional, you know, how could you reaction that I knew that like that wasn't a possibility. And so we just had like such a common experience, I think with that and Just like you I Was like well, but like I don't see how there's any other option But to try and do now whatever I can to sort of protect the kids and I think

Especially because you were close to Sophie and in touch with Sophie and were someone who had a relationship with the girls, I was very concerned while I was making this season that there was, you know, it's unlike the other seasons of the show where I've made or I've been making it with the family members, with people who are in contact with the survivors or victims or what have you. And you know, the cases I've covered previously, even the Myakwalski case, those children were out of danger, right? And like, that is not how we either of us I think now see this situation. And so I think it was a huge relief for me

to have someone that could see how this family was doing because I do care about how my reporting impacts the people it covers. I care about that a lot. And I did feel conflicted to some degree about the fact that I was covering this without the participation of the family and without the consent of the girls, right? And that does feel different for me than the other stories I've covered. And I think that was why we took,

again, measures to obscure their identities as much as we could and all that. But it felt nonetheless important to cover it, especially because there was this lawsuit that Sophie was waging. And also because I felt that this was another situation where people understood this to be a false accusation, and that wasn't what the evidence showed. And I just thought, especially with the sort of climate that's been created with the Kowalski case, I just thought, I better cover this before Netflix gets hold of it, you know, really. And so I think it was a tremendous relief to have contact with you. And so, you know, for a number of months,

we were in touch, we were still in touch with Sophie. And I know that was really uncomfortable for you. Can you kind of talk through, like, what that experience was like and what our conversations were around that, like, why we decided to sort of go about things that way? Yeah, so... it's been such a wild past four months because even as I'm coming to terms with the

truth and even as I'm looking at our not so distant past, my relationship with Sophie, and I'm thinking about different things that have been said, or different diagnoses that have been mentioned, or different crises that have come up. And as I'm realizing this is what they do, this is what these perpetrators do, there is always a crisis. And let me tell you, in 10 years of friendship, there was always a crisis. It was not always C. And so even as I'm starting to realize that I've been lied to, that I've been dragged along for this crazy ride that she takes everyone on, at that point and today I still love this person I Do feel deeply protective of her children

You know as I'm finding these things out and I want to make sure that I can Advocate for them or maintain contact or like keep this open door for their sake advocate for them or maintain contact or like keep this open door for their sake. But you can't just flip a switch. Like this is someone who I have built relationship with, who I have shared deeply troubling seasons of my own with. And so that was so tough. But the hope was, let's keep this relationship open to keep access to the girls available

and to keep a safe person who knows the truth in their life. And that was the hope was that somehow it helped that there was distance physically. We could do what we'd always done, which is our kids can FaceTime. And you know, there's like all this, it's like, now that I look back, you know, you and I were trying to handle this thing

as like prudently and carefully as possible, given the circumstances. But there was still this part of me that's like, maybe my kids don't have to know and they can keep their relationships with their friends. These are their friends. These are girls that they can talk to about what it's like to have a white mom.

These are girls that they have connected in a deep way with about not getting to stay in their family of origin and all of the trauma that comes from being an adoptee. And those friendships were rich and important. And so there was this hope that we can stay the course for the sake of the girls. And I can just play the part. Whatever that looks like. With the hope that, I mean I knew it couldn't go on forever.

You can't maintain a friendship where you know you're being constantly lied to and attempted, you know, all this manipulation. But there was the hope that there would be a point where we would visit again, that we would see each other and that I would be a point where we would visit again, that we would see each other and that I would be able to tell Mike I see you and I don't hate your mom But I know I know what's happening and I'm here because There will come a day where she I

Hope will see what is real and what is true and she will need people. Like this is in a much more intense way because this is a daughter, this is a child, but I mean Andrea I needed you when I was navigating this. I needed someone else to be able to say like you kept, I remember you kept saying to me like yeah this breaks your brain, this breaks your brain. I feel like so much of what I said in our phone calls probably felt so nonsensical, and you just created space and held space for me to, I mean, you held space for me

to talk about the things that I loved about Sophie, to work through the grief. It was on a daily basis, it was like, where am I today? Am I back in shock? Am I back in denial? Am I back in anger? Like what's the emotion of the day? And you have been and were such a steady friend and such,

there was nothing in it for you at that point. I was like, I'm not going on the air. I'm not going on record. I'm not doing any of that stuff. But you were in it for the reasons that I had hoped you'd been in it, which is for the love of these children, for the love of vulnerable children.

And so my hope was that, you know, when her world comes crashing down one day, because all of these, this podcast will be available to her, these investigative reports, like anything she wants if she ever digs into what suspicions I know are already there this stuff will be available but tragically like even her extended family who I I have so many good things to say about the extended Hartman family. Their hearts are good. I think they are very deceived and in deep denial that is doing a lot of destruction.

But they are good people. But good people is not enough. This is my next step to just reach in hopes that I say I keep saying M because she's older and I think she could come to what I know now about the siblings of these kids who are being abused. I mean any kid in the family like this is being at the very least psychologically emotionally abused if not abused in other ways. But yeah, I mean my hand feels it feels like M is most reachable. She'll be of a legal age sooner than C and sadly you know C has been given such a strong identity of disability that I can't even go there yet. Like I pray that one day she can come out of that and see who she is outside of that.

But that just seems so far down the road. So my priority right now and my hope is making some sort of reach for M. Yeah. Well, first of all, nothing that you have ever said to me sounded crazy. I find I have a lot of these conversations with folks that are in these same situations. I was like, the story is crazy.

You are not crazy. And I think that is one of the after effects of gaslighting, right? Is that you just find yourself really like grasping for reality. And yeah, having that shared experience is so powerful because even though I do now know other people who've been through it, it's still a relatively unusual experience, you know. And I was and am so concerned about these girls. And like I said, I take the ethics of what I'm doing really seriously and I don't hate Sophie either. I'm not out to get her. And so I was worried about the impact that it would have on her. And I think one of the things that like, and I really adore

my team and my producer, Mariah, and it's so deeply ethical and I really have a wonderful team, especially on this, our researcher and one of our producers, Erin Nijai and Nicole Hill, who worked with us in the season, and just really such a solid team to talk through some of these things with and how can we best approach this and how can we do our best to mitigate any unintended bad consequences on this family. And so it really was such a relief to be in touch with you. And I think there is this question of Sophie's family. And I think one of the reasons that I connected with this case, other than the fact that my sister was literally involved, was that Sophie is a very

strong parallel to Megan. Because there are these other cases that we've covered where they come from these chaotic families. And I think there's a real knee-jerk thing to say, I think especially because the most well-known case is the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case where Dee Dee Blanchard really did come from this, like, very troubled family and there was a whole bunch of stuff about, like, her father. And, you know, I think that people really want there to be an explanation for why someone does these things. And they want to be like, oh, well, they were abused as a child or what have you, or they were deprived in some way, or they had, you know, all these stressors. And certainly those things can contribute to child abuse as a whole. Medical child abuse

is in sort of a different category. There is no known sort of like adverse childhood experience big connection. And I think Sophie was from such a similar family in some ways. My family is not religious, but both Megan and Sophie are upper middle class, white women who are very polished, very presentable, very well educated, have all those trappings, and use the same very expensive attorney to get their children returned to them.

Those pieces were so compelling to me in explaining how the system works the way it does. And I'm so compelled by our family faced the same choice, and we went that way. And her parents went the other way and have continued to fund and support and enable everything that she's done. And you talked about wanting to hate me.

I sort of wanted to hate them. Or at very least I felt a ton of frustration with them. And it was really interesting talking to you about what they're like and what you've said, which is like the other people that we talked to on background for the story said the same thing. Like this is a really nice family. Like they're like for really good people, well liked in their community. You know, again, it would be easier, I think, if we, it would be easier if the people who were enabling monstrous things were monstrous themselves.

And that's not the case with the Hartmans, right? No, it's not. And I think one of the things, in addition to hoping that you could keep some line of communication with the girls, we were hoping that you could get through to the Hartmans. Can you talk about your conversations with Sam and your kind of attempts to maybe reach out to her? Yeah. So my relationship with Sophie has always been long distance and her family lives in

Michigan. I connected more with her family when I was out in Seattle. And they had come to Seattle to be there for her and the kids in every way through all of this. And so I don't know them deeply, but I know them well enough. And I kept open lines of communication with them as we supported Sophie over the course of what became a couple years. I don't really know these people, but we have this mutual love for Sophie and a deep commitment

to supporting her. And so I did reach out to Sam and we had a lengthy phone conversation and I did not tell her what I suspected, but I did reach out to tell her, you have to listen to this podcast. And Megan Carter is not who you think she is. I was kind of engaged to see, can you even hear that at all? And Sam was very kind. She is deeply kind. And I stand in such a torn place about the position of this family because on

the one hand I see them as more of Sophie's victims, more of people that have just been taken on a crazy train ride for at least as long as she's had the girls, but much longer than that I know now. And so, yeah, I reached out and the general response was just like, that family has been to hell and back. If you believe that doctors conspired against your sister, your daughter, and took her children away,

especially a medically fragile child, especially two children who have already lost their first family. One was being held and sheltered in the hospital, and one was put in foster care. And if you believe that narrative, how horrific, right? And so I was treading very lightly

because this is a family whose, you know, half of them moved out to Seattle, left their lives, dropped everything to go and show up for her. And as far as I could tell, really believed it all, to the nth degree. And so I know, I mean, there were times when my partner, Rachel, would say, this thing seems off about Sophie. This thing seems kind of strange.

This is my partner who I love, who I is the, you know I will be adopting my children when we get married and who I trust with my whole world. And even I, when she would say, that seems weird, I would get defensive. I would say, well, you don't know her. You don't know what she's been through. It's not if you knew her. And I couldn't hear it. There was a time when I couldn't hear it.

There was a time when I couldn't hear it. There was a time when I would have my suspicions. I remember initially reading the police reports and thinking, this stuff is weird. This seems off, but I would show it away in light of all these other things in our friendship. I do have a very real fear of the wrath of Sophie. I have at different times throughout our friendship. I do have a very real fear of the wrath of Sophie. I have at different times throughout our friendship been cut off or been given

the silent treatment for different things that I've done, always making me feel like I was the problem. I wasn't afraid of Sam. I knew calling Sam and reaching out to Sam that she would be kind and that she would listen and that she would hear me in earnest, but I knew it was a step too far to say, I think that Sophie is abusing your nieces. I knew that was too far and I knew it was just too much. It's too earth shattering. This was shattering my world and I am living my life

separate in Charleston. Like my life could blow up, but still kind of go on. When you more than anyone know, like when it is your sister, your family, what does this mean? What are the ramifications of this? And so I couldn't say everything that I knew, but I pleaded with her.

I said, listen, I don't think Andrea is who we think she is. I don't think she is on this vengeful mission to make a really great True Crime podcast and deceive all of these people. I think she might be wrong about some things, but listen to her tell the story of her sister. Listen, you have to listen, you have to listen. So remember I sent her three episodes and I just said,

will you please listen to these? Hoping that she would hear what I heard, which was undeniable. The similarities, the personality, the walking on eggshells that you have in a relationship with someone like Megan or someone like Sophie. Though I've said this to you, like that unspoken do not cross her.

I thought maybe this will feel familiar at the very least. And she couldn't answer whether or not she would listen to the episodes. I know even bringing it all up was just, she's like, it's just so much. You know, it was People Magazine online. It was Huffington Post. It was all of these different sources. I think she felt like it's already been covered. You know, it was People magazine online. It was Huffington Post. It was all of these different sources

I think she felt like it's already been covered. I've seen it all she was in trial. She's heard the opposing side But it is wild how you can armor yourself against the truth when you are committed to a certain Narrative and committed to not betraying someone who has said in no uncertain terms, do not cross me. So that's the position she was in. Yeah. I mean, it does feel so familiar, right? Like you think about these sort of things that I brushed off or the times I did defend her, you know, it was like when she had her fake pregnancy and then like somehow I managed to blame the boyfriend for that, which is like, I don't know how I made those mental leaps, but I did, right? Cause it was like, yeah, it was definitely cause he stressed her out and then she

just faked a whole pregnancy. It's like, that's not, that's not an explanation that made sense, but emotionally to me, it made sense at the time and then thinking back on yeah These periods were before she had cut me off, right? We're like I was thinking about this the other day because there are you know There are such frequent financial shenanigans that come up in these cases and we talked about some of that with with Sophie's case, but like You know previous to any of the pregnancy stuff, like actually right before the pregnancy stuff, you know, Megan had committed check fraud and

my parents bailed her out, but she was very mad about it. Like she was mad that they were, I think because they were kind of trying to hold her accountable in some way. And so she was very, very upset about it. And then she got mad at me for like, quote, siding with them. Cause I was like, well, you know, you did like do the thing. Like I didn't kind of understand why they're mad. And then she didn't talk to me for like three months. And then when she got quote pregnant, that was when she got back in touch with all of us.

So it was already like, oh, any attempt to like confront her will be seen as a betrayal. So it's like, yes, they do the wrong thing that is harmful. And then somehow everyone else has to apologize for it. It's very bizarre, but it's very like, believable to me that Sophie's younger sister is also in that dynamic with her and understands that you support their version of events 100% or you are dead to them. And obviously that is what happened with, I know it would have happened to Sophie's parents if they had declined to fund all of that. Presumably it would be the same thing that happened to my parents when they declined to help make and file a lawsuit against Seattle Children's because, you know, then they never saw their grandchild again. So I think the

fear, the fear is real, the con, you know, like that and understandable and I'm empathetic to it. I'm not empathetic to putting that over the safety of the children. And I also think one of my sort of lingering questions, and I think you have some insight into this because you have been sort of on both sides of it, believing the narrative and then seeing the reality, is that Sam and presumably their mom and to some extent their dad, we're sitting in this trial,

heard those doctors present, saw that evidence, have seen everything that I have seen and that you have seen and much more, because all of this took place in family court and so there is presumably a large amount of evidence that has not made it into the public record or at least a large amount of narrative that hasn't made it into the public record.

And you know, you mentioned seeing these reports a record or at least a large amount of narrative that hasn't made it into the public record. And you know, you mentioned seeing these reports in the press, reading some of the charging documents, like you're a very smart, thoughtful person. You're not a person that would, you know, read to me as someone who just like hops on board with the conspiracy theory of the week. And yet this narrative of medical kidnapping, right? And you'd said even you'd seen sort of the Maya story before you'd encountered the show and everything and sort of thought, oh, that there's another example. And you saw my sister's case and you were like, oh,

there's another example, which is like how confirmation bias works for all of us. But like, why do you think that made sense to you? Like, how did you sort of like see it in a different light? Yeah, if you're familiar with the Enneagram, I'm a two, I'm like a helper, like, deeply empathetic. And I think when you grow up middle class, upper middle class, you live in a separate reality than a lot of people. And so at one point in my life, you know, I remember when I was 16, I was teaching dance at my dance academy. I was really involved there. And I found out that one of the moms was being like horrifically abused. And I was, I was made privy to a lot of information. I realized now at 16, I shouldn't have been, but this mom was like confiding in me.

And that was the first time I realized like, uh, horrible things happen to people. People without resources are really screwed and people don't believe victims. Like people don't believe women. And so that was like a cracking for me. And then, I don't know, just my life circumstances took me to kind of realize, oh my gosh, I've lived in kind of an idyllic world where we have enough money to pay for groceries

and I've never worried about my electricity getting cut off. And, you know, I, you read the Hunger Games, you're like, oh, I like kind of live in the Capitol, you know, like I just live in a world where things work out for people. And then you're introduced to a world where things don't work out for people and people do go from one horrific trial to the next. And you know, as I became a foster parent and as I worked at a sex trafficking safe home or volunteered for a time, like I just had these different experiences where I'm like, horrible things happen and people do stand by and listen and know and they don't

do anything. You know, and so, yeah, I just sorted it into one of those things that like horrible things happen, you know? And I accidentally placed Sophie with a ton of privilege into a category of people whose lives really can just spiral, keep spiraling out of control without resources because of the color of their skin or because of their sexual identity or gender identity

or all of these things. I just like, I missed, I just have become so deeply empathetic to a fault that I believe people. I believe people very easily. If you tell me that you need something, I will try to help you get it. Like, yeah, I just, I've seen enough suffering and enough people look the other way

that when someone's suffering and says like, well, you look this way, like I've tried to build a life where I do that. And so I'm always kind of being drawn into the plight of people who are living outside of a world where everything works out for you. And so, yeah, I believed that medical kidnapping was a thing. I believed I was kind of bought into that.

And I followed different people's Instagram pages who had had their children taken away. And you know this, Andrea, it's still hard to make sense of like, what stems from systemic racial issues and true injustices of authorities, CPS, the police, unjustly taking families apart or providing interventions that end up causing more harm than good. Like I had some sort of framework for that. And I allowed Sophie's story to just fall into that framework. Does that make sense?

No, it really does. And I think, you know, I will tell you that when, you know, when I have been looking at these sort of stories about medical kidnapping in particular, like, as a whole, or like the separations that happened. And I mean, I think And I think the biggest misconception to my mind is that the doctors are doing it. Doctors don't have the power to do that.

Doctors do a medical evaluation, and then they present that evidence that they collect to whatever authorities are making those decisions. So the fact that they place the blame so directly on the doctors, you know, that like, oh, this is a this is a conspiracy headed up by Dr. Weister at Children's, like, that to me, just as a framework is very suspicious. And now that is not to say that especially and I will tell you, like, if it is a non white parent, or, you know, a parent that

is not like middle class or middle class, especially, then you look at, all right, there could be other things going on with the system here that are unfair, that are dragging this out, that are meaning this person can't afford. But it just doesn't track for a white mom, let alone a white mom who can afford one of the best defense attorneys in town. Sorry, that's not how the system works. And I understand where you're coming from. And I think a lot of us do understand that there are problems within, quote, the system. And the system is many systems.

They are all different in every state. There are different problems with different ones. They affect different populations differently. So there's so much nuance. And to sort of group it under this whole thing of families are being torn apart by these doctors. And then I find it especially galling that given that, there are families that are so disenfranchised by the child

protection apparatus. And we had that wonderful expert, Dr. Jessica Price, on to talk about her book where she was talking about some of those stories. And those were, you know, yeah, black moms that had been really put through the wringer. And those were really like sort of deeply human stories. And then all of these, you know, like the fact that most removals happen because of neglect, which is far, far sort of, you know, that far more attached to resources than abuses. And these stories that have been highlighted in Take Care of Maya, in Mike Hixson's box work,

in USA Today and elsewhere, these are not those stories. If you want to go and find extraordinarily sad stories about families who've had their kids taken away unfairly, those stories are out there. Those are not the ones they're featuring. And I think it makes me doubly mad that, you know, the people like my sister Megan and Sophie Hartman and Jack Kowalski. They're exploiting then that experience of parents who do unjustly have their kids taken away. And it's just sort of like insult upon insult, you know? Yeah. And I think another thing that, that plays into this in my situation as to why

I was so given over to this narrative of believing that Sophie was being victimized by the system has so much to do with my evangelical background and my understanding of spiritual warfare and how when you're doing God's work, you're going to have, you know, you're going to fall out of favor with people and, you know, Satan's out to get you and the enemy will try to take you down, especially if you're practicing that passage from James, pure and pure religion is to care for orphans and widows. And so when you do that work, you will put yourself in the direct line of fire for the enemy and he will try to take you down.

I thought that way for a very long time. It's embarrassing now, but I had a very deep theological framework for spiritual warfare. And so that was another thing I sorted. You know, I've come a long way, even in the last four or five years. And, but you know, one of my go-to thoughts when I found out about all this is,

this is spiritual warfare. This is the enemy trying, you know, Sophie is living out her purpose, caring for these formerly orphan children and bringing them into a home. And that is what you hear in church. If you do the Lord's work, you have a target on your back, you know? And so that checked out. And Sophie would reiterate that, you know, all of the ways that she has been laying her life down for the Lord and following the straight and narrow and living a bold life of faith

and how much suffering and struggle comes with that. And she had been priming and prepping me for years to believe, see, this is what it's like to live a life of obedience. This is what it's like to live a life of obedience. This is what it's like to live a life of faith. See how many people don't like me? Now I go back and I'm like, well, you're very abrasive. And I see now you don't really have long, deep, rich,

lasting friendships, because you don't actually know how to build friendships with people. You don't have that capacity as someone who I believe is narcissistic. But at the time, it just all made sense. And again, I realize now, this has been life-altering for me because I realized I am very susceptible to getting in a current and just being taken by the current. And I was very much taken getting in a current and just being taken by the current. And I was very much taken by Sophie's current, which was I live a life of obedience and radical love.

And so I will be, the enemy is gonna try to take me down, the enemy being Satan. Yeah, and I remember you and I talking through this piece of things while I was researching the case and that was very helpful for me as a person who did not grow up as a person of faith. And I really wanted to approach the evangelical piece of this with care because I don't want to make it, you know, like it's not the point is not to dunk on people who are evangelicals or people who are Christians or be like, you know, look at these idiots or whatever, whatever that kind of thing, because that's not how I feel. me reading Sophie's memoirs, reading her journals, just reading how she presented herself and

how she appeared to really sort of even think about herself when she was in her own time and on her own time writing journals, presumably not for an outside audience. That that really struck me of like, Oh, well, that's pretty convenient framework for someone who wants to do this, because then you don't have to assign any human motivations that make sense to the people who are out to get you just be like, Satan, you know, and it's sort of a, it's like a thought thought shuts down any sort of further questioning. And it was really interesting to see even how Sophie, you know, her relationships with these churches and I, I have obviously deep ideological differences with like the churches that she went to. And yet with the church here with pursuit, I mean,

I feel like those people were victimized by her. And I think that there's every evidence that they really did care about her and care about her girls and try and support them. And, you know, I really feel a lot of empathy for them. I just wonder to like, you know, we're sort of talking about with Sam and even with with where you were at before this of like, there's this desire, like when you're trying to maintain a relationship with a person like this, and you love that person, and you don't wanna lose that person, there is this thing of like, I think instinctually you know, if you look too closely at it for too long,

it might break through. And so you just kind of like, look away, look away, look away. Totally. And once you're, look away, look away. Totally. And once you were, you know, it's really, it's like that matrix moment, right? Like if you take, I think it's the red pill, right? That wakes you up to reality and it's like,

oh, then you just really can't go back. You know, and so like once you had like made that step and then you were looking at some of this documentation, you know, in particular, Sophie's journals, which obviously are quite disturbing to read. Like, what did that? What did that feel like for you? I'll use your words. It breaks your brain. It's because you're looking at something. You're looking at these investigative reports, you're looking at something that's so familiar to you,

that you know so well, but now the lens is flipped and you see it in focus in a different way. Me looking at all of these facts, Sophie was always clearly in focus, and it was about Sophie as the victim. And through your podcast and through the other education I did around Munchausen by proxy and this kind of abuse, it takes Sophie out of focus and it puts the children in focus. It puts the other glaring realities into focus. And so I eventually came to a place where I chose, if Sophie is telling the truth, then it's okay to stop defending her and just look at the facts.

I had to come to that. I'm like, with anything in my life, if you have to cling so tightly to something for it to be true, like you might wanna loosen your grip a little bit. And I realized I have been clinging so tightly to something for it to be true. Like you might want to loosen your grip a little bit. And I realized I have been clinging so tightly to being there for Sophie, believing Sophie against all odds, against everything she's coming up against.

I will be a faithful friend. I will be one of the people that believes, you know? And so when I chose to come into a place where I'm like, I'm gonna put that on a shelf. I'm gonna let Sophie's life and reality just sit there, and I'm gonna look at this stuff. And if it's true, then all of this will crumble and I will, Sophie will come back into focus

and it'll be fine. But as soon as I stopped mentally, emotionally, psychologically defending Sophie, which now I realize was like a full-time job in our friendship, was you have to keep these things at bay. You have to keep telling yourself like, you have to stop, once you stop making all the excuses, it all just caved in very quickly, very quickly. Yeah. So I had to, in order to see the truth,

that's like to take the world of defending Sophie and like put that on a shelf and to step back from it. That is scary. That is a scary thing to do, to take something that you've known, that you've believed in, that you've invested in, that you've given yourself to, a friendship that you've poured yourself into, and to have to look at something else that may mess with that. I would read, I read the journal entries, the stuff that was in the reports, I read

the reports with Sophie's voice in my head. Nobody ever believes me. You know, I have a target on my back. Just all of this stuff that she had told me about her reality. And then, so I go into those documents just ready to defend, you know, and thinking, I just lend myself like,

oh, you know, it's really weird what she said, but like, I've lied about some stuff before, and you know, like, oh, like I've, you know, done some like very benign shady stuff in my life, like we all do, and you just think like, oh, if all my stuff was like put out there, that'd be embarrassing. And then you're just like, this is not those things.

This is not those things. This is dark. This is dark, And this, this is, you're really in Christianity in the world of good and evil. Like this is actually evil. And so it took so, I mean, I give a lot of credit to you, Andrea. I can say no questions asked. I would not have been able to do that without, nobody should believe me. I would not have been able to do that without the educational work of advocacy that you do through this podcast, the careful way that you tell these stories.

I was given the right resources, which was this podcast, to educate myself about what this actually is. There was a time when I was like, you know, I could really just stop listening and go on with my life and I could call Sophie and tell her how horrific this is and just keep doing what she's asked me to do, which is to pray for her and to be available to her family through.

I could do that, but what? So it eats away at me for the rest of my life, like what the reality is. And I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. Yeah. It became, it's wild to think that something that I defended so fiercely became disturbingly obvious

when I just stopped defending her. Well, I appreciate all those things you said first of all. And I, you know, I think like that's exactly, it's really truly exactly what I, what I hope the show will provide for people. And I think everyone who's been through one of these situations at some point gets into this sort of self recrimination piece of it, or you just go,

oh my God, like how did I, how did I keep doing this? Like how did I, how did I defend this person? How did I believe them? Like I feel like such an idiot. And the reality is like, no, you're not an idiot. You're, you're been victimized by that person. And like they, we all function that way. Like we all live in a basic sort of emotional truth that, you know, is varying degrees of detached to or detached from or attached to reality, right? It's just like how humans are. Um, so you are not in touch with Sophie anymore. No. Can you tell us how things eventually did come to a head between the two of you?

Yeah. Listening to the podcast, being in communication with you, I would read these documents and the evidence is just overwhelming. I would process these things with you. I process these things with other close people in my circle. I had just come to a place of firm belief that this is exactly what I'm looking at. I'm looking at medical child abuse. I have been deceived. And so I was compelled to contribute whatever I could to the story that you were telling because I believe that it needs to be told for the protection of these children. People have to know. People have to keep eyes on them. And so, you know, I had shared things here and there. The podcast was eventually released. Sophie began to be suspicious of me. There were probably things that

she had told just a handful of people that eventually got to you as it should. And she sent me a very, what's the word, accusatory text message. And this was a really tricky place. I'm gonna pause on that. This is a really tricky place because again the fuckery of all of this is that I am aware of what this person is doing and how deeply at risk her children are. And as this podcast is about to release, I am deeply concerned for her mental health. I might, reaching out to her dad,

reaching out to her sister to say rally around her. I don't want something bad to happen. Enough bad things have happened in this family, my God. Yes, Sophie has been behind pretty much all of them, but I don't want the worst for her. I'm still crazy enough to think maybe there's a 1% chance somewhere that she could get healing and actually live a life worth living.

And so I didn't want bad things to happen to her. And I was earnest and honest in my attempts to say, family, people who know her, take care of her. It's gonna be hard because the truth is coming. But when the accusation came back to me, like, have you said something? You've said something. It just burst the dam because, you know, that you've had to process all these emotions, but there was anger because I thought, here you come pointing the finger at me. And I am now aware

And I am now aware that the number of lies, the number of betrayals towards me are so innumerable. It's laughable, except not laughable because it's just devastating. But I didn't wanna have a conversation. I didn't, there's no confronting someone like this. And so I couldn't, you know, I had been like, you know, keeping my cards, lying by omission,, you know, I had been like, you know, keeping my cards lying by omission, if you will, communicating with you while keeping relationship with her for the sake

of the kids. But I couldn't, that duplicitous life, for the birds, hate it, terrible. 10 out of 10, do not recommend. I couldn't do it. And so when that was finally like, she was basically saying like, did you do it? And I was like, yeah, I did. And I sent her kind of like a final sign off message that just said like, I love you,

but I don't believe you anymore. And please do not contact me unless by some miracle, which I do believe in miracles, you choose a new way of life. And if you, my door is always open to the truth and it is slammed shut for anything less than that, which is what has made up our entire friendship is deception and manipulation.

And so I sent that message shaking and trembling because again, despite it all, there's grief and sadness. And I blocked her number and I don't expect to ever hear from her again. But if she ever listens to this, I hope I do hear from her. I don't think you're all bad, Sophie. I don't, I think you could be really brave and do the right thing.

And I would pick up our friendship again. And I would be there for you, like I have been, if you will be honest. In a heartbeat, like I love her. I care about her as a person. I don't understand all the factors that have contributed. I don't know how it's gone this far. I don't know how she's become who she's become,

but I believe that she has deep pain. It's not an excuse, but I think there are reasons. You know, you listen to the Hopi Bar case, and on the one hand, it's so disturbing and so horrific, but I'm a human. I realize that no matter how upper middle class you live, like life still hurts, trauma still happens, things still happen.

At some point you believed that this was the way to receive love and you were sorely, devastatingly, horrifically misguided and you have made horrible mistakes. But I don't think anyone is beyond the reach of grace. I don't think anyone is beyond the reach of grace, I don't believe that. And so, I hope against all hope that there could be healing for that whole family, and I will always be championing that for that family, no matter how villainized I am.

You know, I've been immediately cut off, blocked on all the things you can be blocked on from the family. And I know that the story about me is that I'm a traitor. And it's heartbreaking because the truth is that I love that family. I love Sophie's parents. I think they're good people.

I love Sam and her family. I wish them all well, but for the love of God, would you guys open your eyes and protect those children? You know, I think probably one of the reasons that we did connect as much as we have is that I know that you mean that and that you hold all of those complicated truths about Sophie. And it is so complicated for those of us, you know, something I talk to my friends who are survivors about a lot,

and that remains, you know, complex for me, where on the one hand, this behavior is so cruel and horrible and damaging. And I don't ever want to soften it for anybody. Right? Because we do that too much already. Like, oh, they're struggling with a mental illness. No. Right. No. Right. No. It's inexcusable. They're doing what they're doing.

They're committing these horrendous acts. They're putting their children in danger, they're lying about it, they're manipulating everyone. It's very dangerous behavior. And I don't think that that precludes us seeing the humanity in them. And both the conversation with Hope and one of Sophie's journal entries in particular, the one where a lot of her journal entries are these extremely florid, plugging into this narrative about herself as Jesus, essentially, right? On this, I'm this martyr and my daughter,'m talking to God and really framing herself that way.

And then there's this one entry where it's very plain spoken, it's a very different tone, and she just sort of says, yeah, I'm a compulsive liar. I've done this, I've done that. This is when it started for me around the age of four, I remember feeling this way. And you know, that the only way that I could be loved and be worthy of love was to have it the worst. The highest need, yeah. Right, and I mean, I felt like that was the truth. And that felt-

Maybe the most honest thing she's ever. That felt true. And it really broke my heart to read that because I just, I can still remember a version of my sister that I did really love and was really close to. And whether that's sort of the real her or not, or whether that was always a mask, or whether something in between is sort of, you know, a deep and open question. But I think about that, about her being younger in particular and being in that kind of pain, and it makes me really, really sad. And I do think that Megan and Sophie are in a lot of pain. I think it's a sad and a horrible and destructive

way to live a life. And I think they do so much damage to others and they also do so much damage themselves. And I think it really also, you know, thinking about the lack of connection that you would have to feel with other people to be able to do these things, the lack of empathy that you would have to feel to commit these acts, that must be so profoundly lonely. I mean, tell us, you're a mom also, like, you know, I have two little kids, like, the love I feel for my kids is like the most rewarding thing ever. You know, like it's like, is the best and like just your relationships with other people, whether you have kids or not, like having deep relationships with other

people and trust with other people and connection to other people is like the thing that makes life worth living. And I think like the way I feel about it was like, while I was digging into this case, I was just like, it's like the more I learn about Sophie, the sort of more remote she is, and just talking to people who knew her. And you were one of our background sources, but we had others.

And I did talk to a number of people who know her and knew her. And I just sort of felt like, Oh, nobody knows this person. This person's unknowable. And that was what I ultimately felt about my sister. And it's like, people think they know some version of Megan and they don't because she's unknowable because everything is a lie and it's everything is there's no sort of like an adulterated version of her that is connected to another person. Everyone's sort of a prop in her play, you

know, and I think like that really is like yes that's horrible for the people who are being used as props but it's also horrible for the person because they're at the middle of it in there alone. And I mean I think we can like I don't think it's wrong to feel empathy for a person who's having that experience in their life because it is sad. But you have to like, see the truth in addition to that, because otherwise you're not going to keep the children safe or anybody else. It's like you can't be safe around a person like that unless you see what you're really dealing with. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and you know, I can, I still, there are nights

I can't fall asleep and I'll just cry and cry thinking about what a lonely, sad existence. I believe that this is someone who is hungry for love and to be known and just has chosen, has chosen, let's be clear, has chosen to get that hit in one of the most deeply destructive ways. And that's devastating. That's just devastating. I don't want that for anyone. But the priority shifts from the adult who is choosing this to here I am willing to talk about this case, willing to publicly say I have been lied to. I mean, there's so much I can't say, but I mean, when you start combing back

through the years of it all, you just are like, oh, none of it was real. That emergency, that emergency, that crisis, that crisis, that diagnosis, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. It was always something, none of it's real. But it is time, Sophie has been the center point for a very long time and I am willing, out of my love for her,

as much as she and people like her could never believe that, like I love you enough to decenter you and hope the best for your healing. And now to do whatever I have to do, whatever I feel compelled to do, whatever is the next right step to extend a hand of help to two little girls who are in a very dangerous situation. And so this was my next right step.

I take no joy in, you know, ratting her out or saying it's all true or being the person who comes on the podcast and says, I know her. This isn't fun for me. This is not inherently rewarding. But I am compelled to do the uncomfortable thing and to do the thing that's hard. And this is hard. It's hard to say I was deceived. I believed, you know, this is hard, but it's right. I can and I will do the next right thing and the next right thing is to extend myself as, you know, we called each other, like, I've been her girl's auntie and the girl's,

Sophia was an auntie to my girls. It was a, it felt deeply familial. It felt deeply like this was gonna go the distance. This is crazy, but there was a time where, working to the finalization of the adoption of my girls, I mean, this is how far in it I was, and there's parts that are like embarrassing, but you know, whatever it is, what it is.

But there was a time when I had to choose, I'm a single parent, if anything happens to me, who do my kids go to? Sophie was on a list and at the top of that list because for everything that we know now, there's a different side to all of these people. That's kind of disastrous in my mind, but there was a time when I thought

that would be the next best option. Yeah, it's a lot of loss. It's a lot of loss for you. It's a lot of grief. You know? Yeah, yeah. For all of us, for my family, for my girls, it's a lot. And I mean, I can personally vouch for you not being here

with some kind of vendetta because or to gain something because trust me and my producer can back me up on this one as well. You know, when we're when we're sort of looking to talk to people about these stories, like the last thing we want is somebody who's like, yes, sorry, let's do this. It's a little like, oh, maybe you want to do this like maybe a little too much. And then you wonder if someone's trying to settle a score or something. Then yeah, and I know that like, especially considering like where we started this conversation of like, this can never be out there, my name can never be out there. And then,

you know, it really was just like watching you evolve. And then really this conversation came about because you had shared something on your Instagram about the book and the show. And I was like, I wonder if Chalice is feeling like she wants to talk about this. And then so we had that conversation. Since stepping into this whole world and this new understanding of what medical child abuse is, there's another incident in my life. There's someone else I know, a friend of a friend. You know, it's not that, I wish it were more rare than it is, but it's popped up in another place

and I've talked to other people and it's popped up in their life. And I feel like my work, like the whole work of my life is like, defend those who are defenseless, you know, care for the marginalized and the oppressed. These are tenants of my faith that I still cling to and what I believe it is to be a good person.

And so, yeah, this is the next right step. You do the hard thing and you talk about the things that are in secret. It's my dog's. You give a voice to the things that are not being given a voice. And this is such a deliberately successfully silenced form of abuse that there are not the safeties and the protocols in place. And so now it's this new unexpected part of my life that I never wanted and I'd love to back out of, but I want to do the work.

What does that look like to protect children and to advocate for children who are in harm's way? Yeah. Yeah, I mean like same all around like this is not what I expected to be doing with my life um you know and I'm glad that I've gotten the opportunity to do something that feels valuable and um believe it or not this was not not a longterm plan to have a popular podcast that I just was like, you know what I'm going to do. Um, so tell us, it's been so wonderful to get to have this conversation with you. It's one of many conversations we've had and hopefully will have in the future.

Um, but I really appreciate you doing this with us. And just lastly, and, and I think, you know, when we were talking about this, like, what we both hope, and I think what we maybe realize about, like, hearing about your experience of listening to the show, you kind of realize, like, there's so much fear around confrontation when you're in one of these situations.

How the person will react, how the family members will react, whether or not you will be believed. And because you've been gaslit, you worry that you're crazy. And I realized that having some kind of passive way to process it, it can be really helpful. And so I think like, I think we both hope that M in particular, you know, but see also, will somebody listen to this because it will hopefully give them a way to like process that information that does not involve taking a personal risk off the bat. And so if they do hear this, what do you want to say to the two of them directly? And I love them both so deeply. And they are like nieces to me. They are. You always have been so

special to me. You've been friends to my little girls. You have made their lives better and richer and fuller. And Aliyah and Jemila love you and our family loves you. And there's nothing that we wouldn't do for you. Our home, our hearts, our money, it's all like open to you and we'll believe you, we'll always believe you and I promise to keep fighting for you however I can and to keep fighting for your family and in my own way to keep fighting for your mom who I know you love and when I say I'll fight for her I will do that in

a spiritual way I will pray for her I will always keep a soft part in my heart to her. But the Howards love you so much and we see you. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for all the pain. Thank you so much. That's really beautiful. And you know, I guess like, I said this to hope. I put this out on the air, you know, in the beginning, I think there was like this part of me that was hoping, obviously that Megan would listen to it and be like, Oh,

look, my sister has gone and learned all these things where she can help me. Right. Um, you know, the accepting of that help is like a totally different story. But I think like, um, I, I know I'm the enemy big time. Um, but like also, I think you and I have the right idea about what it means to help someone like Megan and Sophie, right. Because like we can connect them with the people who built the treatment model for this. Right? That is possible. Not easy. But it's possible. I think it's really important to like sort of, you know, first like keep the lights on for the kids, right?

But then like for them too, like you said, if they ever wanted to come out of this, there would be another way. There's always a way. It feels so far gone. I admit that it's gotten so dark. But there, I believe that for every human, that there is always a way. Sadly, so often there aren't people to support. But there are. There are people that know everything

that have been hurt the most by this. And even I, even Andrea, like we will still reach a handout and say like you too are worthy of rehabilitation. You are not a monster. You have made monstrous choices. You are not a monster. You are human worthy of love. And if you choose that, you won't be alone.

You won't have to choose it alone. Is there anything else that you wanna say before we get off? Thank you, Andrea, for your brave, brave work. You have given your life to something so unglamorous, so unsexy, and so messy, and so dangerous and crazy. And it is for love, and it is because you are a person of unspeakable hope. And I'm so thankful. I hate everything that I know, but I'm so thankful that because of your work I'm on the other side of a delusion. And this work is so important and will liberate so many people and will be a hand on someone's back when they feel

so alone in the wake of uncovering these terrible truths and reckoning with abuse and reckoning with all these things you are lighting away and I'm so thankful and it's taken immense courage and you just keep waking up and choosing to do it because you have a heart full of love. And so thank you. I really owe you so much and I'm deeply grateful. Oh, well thank you so much for saying all that. That just means the world to me and I'm so grateful for you as well.

And thank you so much for being here with us and we will keep talking about the next right step. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich Schmeichsenbach. And if you've been with me for a while,

you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators doing the work and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows.

And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify, as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories

of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love, Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love, You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week

by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.