Nobody Should Believe Me - S06 E01: The Advocate

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

This season on Nobody Should Believe Me, we tell the story of Lisa McDaniel, who crafted a public image as the Director of Patient Advocacy at the Guthy Jackson Foundation while concealing her conviction for child abuse more than a decade ago. We begin with an introduction to the McDaniel family: Lisa, her husband Carey, and their children—Mishelle, Angellyn, and Collin. While the unraveling of their family began when Collin was “diagnosed” with NMO (Neuromyelitis Optica), to understand the full story, we must go back to where it all began: Hazlehurst, Georgia. Andrea and our producer Myrriah travel with Mishelle–Lisa’s courageous eldest daughter– to her mother’s hometown, where they sit down with Lisa’s younger sister, Sabrina. Sabrina recounts a childhood marked by emotional manipulation and physical abuse at the hands of her older sister. She walks us through Mishelle’s early years, how, as a baby, she was often left with relatives for days at a time, and then through Lisa’s troubled pregnancy with her second child, Angellyn. Stay tuned through the end of the episode for a preview of what’s to come this season. *** Andrea’s June 28th event with Lisa Jewell: https://townhallseattle.org/event/lisa-jewell/ Andrea’s August 1st event with Gregg Olsen: https://www.libertybaybooks.com/event/west-sound-crime-con-2025-local-authors-gregg-olsen-and-andrea-dunlop Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here.  *** This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources. The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources. Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes. This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant. These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization. The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections. Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchhousensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Well, here we are. Here we are. It's crazy. com to connect with professionals who can help. Well, here we are. Here we are. It's crazy. It's like this feels so surreal.

Where would you like to begin? I don't know. I don't know. Where do you begin? Meet my friend Michelle. Michelle lives in a small town in Georgia with her husband, where she works as a hairdresser. But despite her baby face and ever-changing rainbow hair,

Michelle has the kind of wisdom that can come from surviving a series of unimaginable horrors. Why? Why would you believe a stuff I can't overcome? Because you can. Because, Mama, please listen. Please listen. You're asking me to listen to you. Please listen to me. For most of her life, Michelle has been living under the weight of her family's terrible secrets. A story that only a small group of confidants and licensed professionals have known about.

The long and complicated saga of her mother, Lisa McDaniel, is one Michelle and I have been talking about covering on this podcast for years. Please listen to me. Okay, I will. But here's what I want to say first. Much has been my proxy is something that even B Yorker says you cannot recover from. She does not agree with that anymore, mama.

She doesn't even agree with that anymore. You're not. You're ruining my damn life. We can leave B Yorker out of this. That's what I'm telling you. You didn't hear me when I said it the first time, but I'm serious. I have talked to everybody and B Yorker and I literally told her at one point

that I didn't want to speak to her anymore because I needed distance from her because I didn't know how you felt about her. You have talked about her for years and I tried to understand your point of view going into this whole thing. I am here in your living room because I have empathy for you and I believe that there is

good in you. And I love you. I would not be sitting here right now if I didn't feel that way. Coming forward wasn't an easy choice for Michelle. There has been a heavy silence over the horrifying events that have reverberated throughout generations of her family. But that silence ends today. Where do you begin? Um, geez. This season on Nobody Should Believe Me, we're covering the complicated story of Lisa McDaniel,

her husband, Carrie, and their three children, Michelle, Angeline, and Colin, and attempting to unravel what happened, whether this is a story of a medical mystery or a different sort of mystery altogether. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. You can listen to the entirety of season six ad free right now by subscribing on Apple podcasts or on Patreon. You'll also get bonus content from this season as well as access to our subscriber-only show Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours.

We also have a free tier on Patreon where you can sample some of our bonus episodes and participate in weekly episode discussions. If monetary support is not an option, telling friends about the show and rating and reviewing on Apple are also great ways to support. If you wanna get in touch with us, you can leave us a comment on Spotify

or send us an email or voice memo to hello at nobodyshouldbelieveme.com. All of that information can be found in our show notes. Thanks for listening. Discover the magic of BetMGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck. in our show notes. Thanks for listening. at the casino. The excitement doesn't stop there. With over 3,000 games to choose from, including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz, and more. Make deposits instantly to jump in on the fun and make same-day withdrawals if you win. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. You don't want to miss out. Visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus

to wager, Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I got home last night and I was like, so how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm so nervous. Yeah, I think it's normal to be nervous. Michelle and I first met when we were part of the pilot support group for Munchausen

Support, the nonprofit organization that I founded in 2021. These days, my mentor, Bea Yorker, a professor emerita and longtime psychiatric nurse, is the sitting president. I still serve on the board, and Michelle is getting involved in the work as well. Bea has been devoted to this cause for decades, and she's the one who brought Michelle and I together. Michelle and Bea reconnected many years after the events that first brought Bea into the McDaniels lives. You and I talked a little bit about things when I first contacted you and

that was like what 2019 I believe after we found the records. Yeah I believe that's how I first even learned that your sister was still alive, that you were okay. And I gave the nurse, the NICU nurse, my email information. And I said, I would love to hear from both of the girls. What do you hope for with Michelle coming forward with her story publicly, really for the first time? What do you hope that that can accomplish? What I hope is that when the general public and when child abuse professionals hear from somebody's lived experience

that it is so much more impactful than reading data in a book. So I want you to be able to share your emotional reactions to your journey of coming to this place where now you know you're oh my gosh you're just blossoming and you're resilient and you're amazing and it's not because you had a safe childhood. You proud of Michelle? Oh my gosh, I'm so proud, so proud. Most of what can readily be found online

about Michelle's mom and the woman at the center of this season, Lisa McDaniel, relates to her work as the director of patient advocacy for a nonprofit called the Guthrie Jackson Foundation. How are y'all doing? Did y'all enjoy our breakout sessions today? I encourage you to call up your primary care physician, use your family and friends who may work at medical offices, ask for referrals, get out there, knock on doors, and don't give up until you get someone who will let you in their office to tell them more about NMO.

You do not have to be a public speaker. You just have to be able to talk to your doctor, talk to their staff, and just share your story. Because as Christine just told you, she has a story. But guess what? Each one of us in this room have our own story. That's Lisa McDaniel presenting at the Guthrie Jackson Foundation's NMO Patient Day. NMO, or neuromyelitis optica, is a rare autoimmune disease. Lisa is in her mid-50s with a youthful round face and the red hair that she passed along to her three children. You'd never

know from her carefully crafted public image that Lisa has done jail time for child abuse. Rather, her image centers on her advocacy around NMO and her work at the foundation — work which, as it says in her bio, was informed by her own experiences as a caregiver for her son. My son Colin was five years old when he had his first symptom of vision loss in 2007. We're going to go in here and get some of the stuff we talked about done, okay? Remember, they're going to take pictures and see how the blood works in your body.

Okay? Colin's always been healthy, never had problems. He just lost his vision completely in about two days. We ended up coming to Birmingham, Alabama to the Center for Pediatric Onset Demyelinating Diseases and saw Dr. Jane Ness there. She told us neuromyelitis optica and we had never heard of it. She explained to us that it was used to be thought it was a severe form of multiple sclerosis, that it's a very difficult disease and proceeded to tell us that

there could be times where Colin could be paralyzed in the future, he could lose his vision again, and just varying degrees of disability that he could have. This video begins with a shot of Lisa and her husband, Carrie, walking their son Colin down a hospital hallway in a wheelchair, then cuts to a professionally shot interview of Lisa in a leopard print blazer and a statement necklace. The other voice you hear in this clip is Dr. Jane Ness, the pediatric neurologist who diagnosed Lisa's son Colin with NMO. The picture Lisa presents online is of a gentle, soft-spoken southern mom whose mighty struggles

as the mother of a sick child led to her career as a dedicated advocate for other families. But nothing about Lisa is what it seems. Lisa McDaniel has worked very hard to bury her past. But that's the thing about the truth. You can spin it, you can push it down, but it has a way of catching up to you. A life built on lies just isn't very durable. Because sooner or later, someone might come along

and put all the pieces together. I don't know how this is going to land. And I know you're probably not gonna understand it. I've been in some support groups for probably two or three years and a really close friend of mine runs a podcast and she asked me to go on her podcast and kind of talk about everything that we grew up with and I agree to do it. I hope that it will be an opportunity to kind of air some things out and heal from a lot of things that I still don't have answers to. I know there's been some things,

and it's not all old stuff for me, but I just wanted to let you know before any of it came out or happened, because I do love you and I do have respect for you and I didn't want it to just be out there and you find it somewhere and have that. So did you give any considerations of what this is gonna do to Angel's life,

to your daddy's life, to my life? This is Michelle talking with her mother, Lisa. I have, a thousand percent. I have- Because you could literally be taking away our income and everything. You could literally be ruining everything that we work hard for, that I've tried to overcome and work hard for after all these years.

You can literally take our whole entire life away. You know what I'm saying? Well, I'm not here to hurt you. Feels that way. That not. Because you've always been very rebellious your whole entire life. Mama.

All I'm asking is some accountability. Nobody is irredeemable. I mean, what do you want access to all my medical records? No, I don't I don't I don't know mama, but I don't believe you and I don't trust you and if you're and I've been gaslit my whole life by anybody and everybody Things still don't make sense to me Don't because you have lied to us. Yeah, I have. I mean, just like you lied to me.

He's lied to us. She's lied to us. You're right. I have lied to you, but I have not lied to you to that point. And that is not the same thing. Lying is a lie. I understand a lie is a lie, but a lie is very different when you are causing yourself direct harm or causing your children in your life direct harm?

I did. I exaggerated it. Does that mean it's much house and by proxy? Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But here's the thing. Why label me with something? Why?

Why label me with something I can't overcome? Because you can. Because, mama, please listen. Please listen. You're asking me to listen to you. Please listen to me. The story we're covering this season gets at many of the core questions of this show. How do you cope with the truth when the truth is unfathomable?

Can dragging long hidden horrors into the light help us heal, bring us peace, even maybe reconcile with those who've harmed us? Or are there things that, even for the most compassionate among us, simply can't be forgiven? The weather has been nice here in Seattle, and this past weekend we got out all of our summer stuff. The pool toys, the slip-and-slide, the deck furniture, and I also turned over my closet. And when I did, I realized that it could use a little refresh. So I headed over to Quince to see what's popping in their summer edit and it did not disappoint. They've got easy breezy European linen shorts and dresses starting at $30. They've got beautiful swimwear, Italian leather

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And as always, you can find this information in our show notes. After you place your order, be sure to let them know that I sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select, nobody should believe me in the dropdown menu that follows. And remember that shopping our sponsors

is a great way to support the show. you that follows. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. We tend to think of the past as fixed, immutable, but the reality is more complex. Our history with our own parents shifts as we get older and reach new milestones. As we become ages, we actually remember them being. And particularly if we become parents ourselves, everything about our family of origin suddenly appears in a new light. I've learned this is an especially dramatic process for people like Michelle, whose childhoods were traumatic, whose memories buried themselves out of self-protection. As Michelle has found hard-earned stability and safety in her adult life, disturbing memories

have begun to reemerge. She has questions about what happened to her and her siblings, and leaving them unanswered has become unbearable. So we got to work looking for the truth in the small rural town where we lay our scene, Hazelhurst, Georgia. We had a Walmart and a huddle house. Okay, what is a huddle house? Because we do not have a huddle house in the North.

I've heard a lot about Hazelhurst, the town where generations of McDaniels were born and raised. It's a sleepy rural town three hours outside Atlanta. Now it was time to see it for myself. Do you know what a Walpua House is? rural town three hours outside Atlanta. Now it was time to see it for myself. Do you know what a waffle house is? I just learned. I mean I know what a waffle house is. You've never been to a house. I haven't really explained a waffle house last night when we were driving. Yeah. That is my producer Mariah, who was also raised in the south, and Michelle enjoying me

being a fish out of water as we chatted in a hotel room in the quaint little college town of Valdosta where Michelle now lives. I also discovered the uniquely southern miracle that is Bucky's on this trip so it was quite the cultural exchange. These are just not things we have in the north and then I was trying to sing her the Jonas Brothers song and she was like I don't know what you're talking about. She was like I know she's like I don't know what you're talking about. I know Waffle House. Yeah. We're gonna work it out. Yeah. I was like, no. She's like, I know. She's like, I don't listen to Jonas Brothers.

And I was like, I don't listen to Jonas Brothers either. But it's just all radio. How could you miss this? This is everywhere. So, Huddle House is like a Waffle House. It's like a Waffle House, Waffle House adjacent to it. Don't say that in the South, because you'll get in trouble.

But I personally believe that a Huddle House is just a better Waffle House. However, that is probably the most controversial thing I will say on this podcast. Okay so you're talking about the home the hometown? Yeah. Walmart. Walmart and a huddle house. Okay. Which is, I mean that's where we hung out. Like as teenagers we hung out in the

Walmart parking lot or at the huddle house at 2 a.m. That was, that's where we hung out. Like, as teenagers, we hung out in the Walmart parking lot or at the huddle house at 2 a.m. That was, that's what we did. And we had, that's why we had babies so young. Because there's nothing to do. Yeah, there was nothing else to do. The cops would get mad and run us off from Walmart and then where else are you gonna go? Went home and had babies.

I don't know, I don't even remember where I was going with that. The next morning, we make the drive out to the town where both Michelle and her mother Lisa grew up. Hazelhurst is in rural South Georgia, and we head there on a bright, chilly winter day. There are few signs of life between Valdosta and Hazelhurst. Mostly, it's long stretches of beautiful country roads. On the day we drive there, there's sunlight sifting through the rows and rows of white pine, many of them bent at tortured angles following the devastation of Hurricane Helene. Yeah, I feel like there's... If you smoke a cigarette, it stops then.

There is like a, I think there's gonna be a good, just a little moment of like, Hazelhurst, Georgia is known for. Well, there was a murder. This murder? An American Idol star. American Idol star in the United States. gonna be a good just little moment of like, Hazelhurst, Georgia is known for. Well, there was a murder. This murder. An American Idol star. American Idol star and Angela from 98 Pianza. That wraps it up.

Remote as it is, I'm not the first true crime podcaster to come through Hazelhurst. In 2021, Fox Hunter covered the murder of Rondessou Coleman, a girl in Lisa McDaniel's high school class who was killed just before they graduated. Michelle is also one degree away from another famous Hazelhurst native, Will Mosley, the 2024 American Idol runner-up, who is her husband's brother. They don't have any known connection, however, to the woman who is perhaps Hazel Hurst's most famous resident, the truly iconic Angela from 90 Day Fiancé.

Angela, Angela, sit, sit with me. Angela, please don't disrespect us. I'm an elder. He's an idiot. You think it's funny, Michael? As we make our way into town, Michelle points out landmarks from her past. The turnoff to her granny's house, her mother-in-law's home, and the church where her parents got married.

Then, we finally arrive at the pizza joint where we're meeting Michelle's aunt Sabrina, her mother Lisa's younger sister. Hello. Listen, this one's not on me and I don't know why you're surprised I'm late to everything. And we're only a few minutes late. You're always late for everything. I know, but Andrea is too. So it's a combine.

Oh, boy, y'all matched. How are you? In my defense, part of the reason we were late was because our hotel had coffee but not breakfast, and then the breakfast we were late was because our hotel had coffee but not breakfast, and then the breakfast place had food but no coffee. And this conversation with Sabrina was going to be intense. Between that and my jet lag, tea was not going to cut it. So Sabrina, did you, you're born, raised,

lived all your life in Hazelhurst or? Yes. At 47, Sabrina is a few years older than me, and we have daughters the same age. I never know exactly how someone's going to feel about me coming around asking them to relive their worst traumas. But Sabrina puts us all immediately at ease with her funny, acerbic charm as we settle into one of the only restaurants in town, a dimly lit pizza joint with dark wood paneling and narrow booths. We post up in the empty party room, likely more used to hosting end-of-the-year sports banquets than nosy northerners with podcasts. Sabrina explains how she and her

sister Lisa grew up. That's loaded. It is quiet country until something happens and then everybody knows it. Because everybody knows everybody, it's kind of like everybody tries to know your business all the time. So if something major ever happens, it's not, it's talked about for decades and decades and decades. So people do not forget until something new happens. And then they'll talk about that and bring up.

You know, that so-and-so that did so-and-so back in 1997. Yeah. And it's always like, well, you know know that person is related to that, you know, you always have that kind of relation. And I've always said, man if I can ever move, and then, because you go whether like Savannah or Atlanta or somewhere, and nobody cares who your mama is, nobody cares who your grandma is or your grandpa or whatever. They're just like, oh, where are you from? So it's just, it's different because everybody knows everybody.

Which is a good thing sometimes, but then people try to get in your business too much. Sorry. Nobody has anything else to do. Yeah, it's like there's nothing else to do, which is the downfall because there's really nothing to do. So, we don't have a theater. We used to have a theater and a skating rink. We don't have either one of those anymore.

So it's for kid, kid-wise and stuff like that, it's quiet but nothing to do other than go to school and do like the school activities or stuff like that. I told them yesterday that's why we all have babies so y'all... because there's nothing else to do. I mean... I've never really thought about it that way. But okay. I mean that probably is the legit reason. Adrienne didn't even know what a huddle house or waffle house was until this trip.

You said what now? She didn't know what a huddle house or a waffle house was. Hey wait what? I'm going to get emails about waffle house for the rest of my life aren't I? Hazelhurst only has about 4,000 residents so it's no surprise that everyone is up in each other's business. Timber is the main industry and families and communities are tight-knit out of necessity. Tell us about your parents. It's weird because as you get older, like as I've gotten older and grown and had my own kids,

I realized that a lot of things, especially my mom would do, was not normal, but you think it's normal because that's what you grow it at him. But like my dad, he always, he worked, it was called a cooking company over in Lumber City. And he worked there until it closed. So my dad, when I was younger, he worked what they called the swing shift. So he would work days and nights. So, he just expected you to behave, do what you were told, and you just really didn't have any problems at that.

My mama, everybody thought my mama was great. Let me just say that. My friends thought she was fabulous. Everybody thought my mama was fabulous. But my mama would be like, if you don't do this, you don't love me. And y'all just don't love me the way it, y'all, you love your daddy, but you don't love me because you don't treat me the same as you treat your daddy.

If y'all love me, I wouldn't do that. And it would be nothing other than we wouldn't have all the clothes washed or we wouldn't do the dishes immediately. Typical kid things. Well, y'all just don't love me. And like then when you're growing up, you think, okay, that's just normal.

Everybody kind of deals with that. But then you get older, you're like, that's not normal at all. But like I say, all my friends loved her growing up. They thought, oh, your mama is great. But my mama, I always said my mama had a switch. It was like she was one person when she was around you and she flipped the switch when your friends were around.

Do you think maybe that set up kind of a dynamic where you felt like you had to take care of your mom's feelings? Yes, yes. It definitely was a, let's tread lightly, let's not do anything to upset her because that just made the days even worse. But it was, it was a delicate balance because looking at it now, I see a lot of Lisa's personality was the same as my mom's. But then it was always a delicate balance. You had to dance around mom and her feelings, but you had to tiptoe around Lisa too because

Lisa always had a keen way. She could manipulate my mama, just you know, she could and she would have my mama convinced that something she did that I did or my little sister did and so when my daddy came home it was like well what did you do that before and I'm like but I didn't I didn't do it at all you know she would it was just you always had to just tread the water, trade the water, trade the water. Discover the magic of Bet MGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck. Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as

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If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Spending this time with Michelle's Aunt Sabrina was only my second opportunity to get ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— estranged, their relationship seems unlikely to survive Sabrina's decision to be with me today. Because Lisa's child abuse conviction more than 20 years ago? That's just the beginning of this story. And did you have any like health issues? Who? Lisa. No. Well when she got to be like maybe 14 or 15 and maybe it was 16. She went through the trying to make herself throw up stage.

Yeah. And my daddy got really got upset and got aggravated with her and kind of got in her face about it and so she kind of quit doing it. So I think it was more of a I'm just going to do it to see the attention I can get off of it, because she loved some attention. Can you think of some other examples of stuff that really struck you as her trying to get attention? She did a lot. She would just do random things. We were at one of my dad's friend's house, their phone rang and it

was Lisa and she's like somebody threw a brick through the window and daddy's like well let me go y'all stay here let me go see you know what's going on. He's like call the police you know and when he got there and yeah there was a big hole in the future window. She had threw a brick through it and tried to throw a brick through the window next to it. And she will never say it was her, but it was her. I mean, she just, because they found no evidence of anybody else being in the yard, no other shoe prints,

no anything like that. She would do stuff like that all the time. Anything to call and say, oh, I need help. I need help. So even if Lisa didn't have the health history in her youth that we often see with perpetrators, there's always this common theme of deception and finding, or creating, opportunities to be a victim. One of the perpetually confusing things for me about looking back at my own childhood

with my sister Megan, whose case I've covered in depth on this show previously, is that even though I do see signs of trouble looking in the rear view, my experience of our childhood together was mostly good. But for Sabrina and Lisa, not so much. And see, that's the thing. People assume that what happened, what she did to Angelin was like the first sign, but there were so many signs when we were growing up.

My dad had this butcher knife. It was probably 10 inches long with a three or four-inch handle. There were so many signs when we were growing up. My dad had this butcher knife. It was probably 10 inches long with a three or four inch handle. She would get it and chase us. And you're her, you're the youngest sister? I'm the middle. You're the middle of three sisters? I'm the middle of three sisters, yeah.

Okay. So like I said, that butcher knife, she would take it, especially my little sister. She would do it more to my little sister, but she would for no reason. She would just randomly grab it when my parents were gone and just chase. And then, you know, those old cast iron frying pans, she would get them and chase you around the house. And she would just do all kind of like mean stuff like that, but it was never her fault. It was never, well, I just did it because I was mean. Because she was. It's, well they did X, Y, or Z, and that's why I did it. I think we were excited to get rid of her.

Just to interject, by get rid of her, Sabrina is talking about when Lisa disappeared into her relationship with her then boyfriend, now husband, Carrie. Nothing more sinister than that. At least not yet. I mean, but then you have to understand she was just so mean to us. I mean, she did. It was never her fault.

It was always somebody else's fault. You said something to her out of the way, or you looked at her funny, or... I mean, it was just random stuff, like little things that shouldn't trigger being chased by a butcher knife or a cast iron frying pan, that she would do. And then as she got older and started dating Carrie, that was when, you know, everybody wore class rings, like their boyfriend's class rings, and she would take it and turn it around and she would hit my little sister, especially,

upside the head with it and just, she just always, she wanted attention. It becomes clear as we dig into Lisa's backstory with Sabrina that chaos and drama have been a constant theme. And Lisa's relationship with Michelle's father, Carrie, was no exception. When she started dating Carrie,

she told my mom and dad that Carrie was four years older than she was. And Carrie was almost 11 years older than she is. So he was closer. 26 and 15. Yeah. 20, yeah. So he was closer to like my dad and mom's age category than I think, because it was, you know, if you look at it.

So... I did the math one time, and he was closer to Naina's age for like, I think, four or five months. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the first lie. That's how it started. The fact that this relationship began with a lie is fitting for reasons that will become clear as we go. Today, this relationship would be a crime, but at the time in Georgia, the age of consent was 14.

Yikes. And then it just, it was one lie after another lie after another lie after another lie, and then you just get, my mom and dad just got to the point that they just didn't believe me anything. By the time she got married, she had caused so much chaos and drama with her relationship with Carrie,

that you were just, you just got tired of hearing the argue in that nighttime, you just got tired of hearing it. And so it was just like, yeah, let's get rid of her. Once Lisa was out of high school and married to Carrie, it wasn't long before they got busy doing what the rest of Lisa's peers were doing, making babies. And then, so they got married after high school and then she gets pregnant with... Yeah, but I was excited she was having Michelle, you know, and you know, everything was good

for a little while. I don't know if you remember, but... Yeah, I remember when I was born. No, I mean, you were born, and you were just a few months old. She started getting left at our house all the time. Like I did? Yeah, you did. Yeah, but even before that, they...

WM, which is Carrie's dad, had money and they were spending it left, right, and sideways. So they were kind of always going somewhere. When she got pregnant with Michelle, that brought her a lot of attention, you know. And so she was good to stay at home for a little while because, you know, it got her so much attention, you know. And then when Michelle got a few months old, it was like, okay, the attention kind of faded away.

So it was like, okay. And of course, you know, she's a baby. Everybody wants to keep a baby. Yes, we liked you because you were a baby and kid. There is always a pattern of troubling behavior that precedes munchausen by proxy abuse. And that's why these narratives from family members are so crucial.

They were there for all of the foreshadowing. But there is the question of why and how pregnancy and motherhood kicks this into high gear. My kids are six and two, so I've been through this period of my life pretty recently. In the best-case scenario, pregnancy and having a brand new baby aren't crisis situations in and of themselves, but they command a similar sort of all-hands-on-deck attention, especially on your first one. People send food and gifts and go out of their way to come and meet and hold your precious little potato. So it's easy to see why this could kick attention-seeking behaviors into high gear.

And after this period of attention ended, Lisa didn't seem to have much attachment to or interest in little baby Michelle. She was at our house that night. She called me mama before she called her mama mama. Is that real? Are you making that up? I'm dead serious. I'm dead serious.

You started saying mama one day at mom, well, I wasn't married then. I was still in my home. And it was my, she was calling me mama. And I'm like, I hate you. I love you, but I'm not your mama. Because you're a teenager. Yeah, I'm a teenager. So I'm like, I love you, but I'm not your mama. Most of the time when we guide her, they would drop her off on the weekend, I guess, like when he would be off. And she would stay three or four days and they would come get her. And then when the weekend came, she'd stay three or four days and they'd come back. I don't know.

Lisa really never worked. Like how was Lisa as a mom in that time period. Well, it's kinda hard to say because when Michelle was first born and was a baby, she seemed to be attentive and everything, but then she started, you know, leaving her at everybody else's house. So, I would say, you know, part-time mom, maybe. I mean, for lack of better,

because it was just hard to get that feel because she was always at our house or at W.M. and Bernice's house. So she was never really around parenting her. I mean, like I say, it's hard to kind of gauge what kind of parent she was because she always left her. And then I got pregnant with my oldest one, and she was born in 96. She was born in October of 96.

But when I got pregnant with her, of course, you know, you get a lot of attention when you had, you know, an out your pregnant and everything. And you could just tell and Lisa's face and how she acted that she could not stand it. She absolutely hated it. She could not stand it. And just how dare you take any spotlight away from her. Which of course was not my intent.

Then the next thing we know, she was pregnant with Angelin. Fabulous! You know, I was happy for her. Who wouldn't, you know, be happy for somebody, you know, having a child if that's what they want to do. My oldest was born in October, and then right after that, it was one thing after another, after another. I fell down the doorsteps. I need to go to the ER. I fell down the doorsteps again. I've called the ambulance.

Just all kind of little things like that. The reality is she never fell down the doorstep. She threw herself down the doorsteps one time. The reason why I think she threw herself down the doorsteps is because the way they said she landed right with the edge of the doorstep right directly in her stomach. Anyway, that triggered the whole series of events with Angelin coming early. She got pregnant on purpose as a way to get attention for herself, but I don't know that she ever really planned on actually the baby

surviving, if that makes sense I'm saying. This insinuation that Lisa got pregnant with Michelle's little sister, Angelin, and then interfered with that pregnancy to draw attention to herself might sound shocking, but to me, it's all too familiar. Fake pregnancies followed by fake dramatic miscarriages, along with real pregnancies followed by induced obstetrical complicationsriages, along with real pregnancies, followed by induced obstetrical complications and premature births, are absolutely textbook in these cases. The timing of my older sister's pregnancy hoax is a good example of this. It came right

in the middle of a falling out with my parents after she had committed check fraud, which for the record they did bail her out of. And it also came right on the heels of her boyfriend breaking up with her after discovering she'd been abusive with his son. Most people would never use it, but a pregnancy can be a pretty powerful trump card. And Lisa was a master at dragging people into her warped version of reality. When you get so good at telling a lie, she has an uncanny ability to make people believe, well, not us anymore, but she can make people believe just about anything she wanted to, about anybody.

And I'm, you know, it's, how do you get that dark? Like how do you, I don't understand how people cannot see the true color she is. It's a neighboring cycle. It's one thing, it's one thing after another, after another, and I don't, I hardly ever communicate with her because it's just every time you do, you're

just waiting on that knife to get twisted a little bit further and a little bit further. And you know, you get to the point where it's like, look, I forgave you. I had never told her I forgive her. I forgive her for my peace, not for hers. I forgave her for me, for my inner peace, but it's just constant. And that's the reason why I don't have a lot to do with her, because every time you talk to her, it opens the gate for her to twist it a little bit more. And in my adult life, I don't have room for that. And I don't want my kids to learn that. I don't want my kids to have to deal with that and think that

that's acceptable, because that's somebody who's related to you. But that doesn't mean you have to accept how they act or what they do. She's my sister, do I love her? Yes. But I love her from a distance because I don't have to accept her in my life. Making a show like this, you have to watch out for people who want to settle a score or punish someone who's harmed them. It's too precarious of a place to be in when you're taking the vulnerable step of sharing something like this. I sympathize deeply with people who want to make abusers pay, but we just don't do revenge

journeys here on this show. We look for the truth and we tell it. What happens next isn't really up to me. I look for people who really shared the ethos of this show, which is about bringing this abuse to light, about protecting kids, and educating those who we've trusted to do so. It's why I knew that despite how harrowing this particular case is, Michelle was up for the challenge. I've watched her wrestle with the decision to go public. I've watched her interrogate her own motives. And that's why I'm so sure they're the right ones. I'm sitting here outside on the balcony in San Diego preparing for a conference on much of my proxy and being able to speak. I know that I've really

struggled with doing this because my mom does this. My mom travels and she talks to doctors and she gets presentations. She's given presentations here in San Diego, and I've been so nervous and worried, does that make me like her? I'm sitting here and just kind of hits me that this is not built on lies for me. This is not built on manipulation. I just told the truth. Lisa McDaniel would like you to believe that the version of her found online is the real her.

The Lisa who has, according to the Guthrie Jackson Foundation's website, educated more than 50,000 people on her son's rare disorder. My name is Lisa McDaniel. I think I know most of you. What I do is I go out and I talk to doctors and hospitals, really anybody who wants to listen to me in my Southern term. So the way I started was with my son's pediatrician, told her what I was wanting to do, because as you guys know, sometimes our doctors don't know. What I normally do is start with a personal story,

make it personal. You need to get their attention because you want to make sure they understand your disease. I always start off with a little story about Colin. You can pick your own story. Grab their attention right away. That's the easiest way to make sure they're hearing and listening to you. It's very simple and very easy to do. Any questions? Well, since you asked Lisa, actually I do have a few questions for you. This season on Nobody Should Believe Me. I'm actually amazed from what you're telling me that this child lived through this. He said, do you think your sister's doing something to her? I'm like, don't ever say that again. Neither one of those children were suffering because of a disease.

How somebody could do that to a child that was so little and so helpless. Still to this day haunts me. The judge gave full custody back to them. I stood up and I told him, I hope you don't sleep. When you go home tonight, you have no idea what you've done and you should be ashamed of yourself. There's a pattern. This fits a pattern and it is lethal munchausen by proxy.

The longer it sits with me and the more I think about all these things that that doctor said, the more I am so pissed off. As a caregiver, you pour yourself into advocacy and helping other people. That's who I am at heart, as a helper. My mother tortured my brother brother and these doctors and this hospital went along with it and they co-signed on it and they helped her torture him. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me,

Andrea Dunlop. Our supervising producer is Mariah Gossett. Our senior producer is Taj Easton. Assistant editor and associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Research and fact checking by Erin Ajayi. Engineering and mixing by Robin Edgar. And administrative producing by Nola Karmouche. Music provided by Blue Dot Sessions, Sound Snap, and Slipstream Media.

Special thanks to Michelle Roberts, Aunt Sabrina, and the fine folks at Village Pizza in Hazelhurst for letting us monopolize their party room for many hours.