Nobody Should Believe Me - S07 E02: What Happened to Knowellan Kelly?

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

After John Stewart, a Florida man charged with–but never prosecuted for–the death of his girlfriend's 15-month old son reaches out to Andrea to tell her she’s all wrong about his case Andrea goes on a deep dive to find out what really happened to Knowellan Kelly, the baby who lost his life ten years ago. John–who was featured in Take Care of Maya–claims that doctors and investigators falsely accused him: but the truth turns out to be much more complicated.  *** Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media Please note that this show discusses child abuse, which may be difficult for some listeners. For resources about abusive head trauma, go to shakenbaby.org. So you know him well enough. Okay. Maybe I'm a bad mom for letting my boyfriend babysit my kids. I'm sorry, I apologize.

It's my fault that Nolan is dead. That is not what we are saying. Hey, no. It is the fact that we have baby Nolan you are his mother you are his caregiver you are his voice somebody needs to stand up for Nolan

what do you want me to say yes I think he did it I think he's capable of it I don't know that I don't know him that well obviously I don't he's never shown any signs of being that type of person in front of me what happened to Nolan Kelly

This is a question that has lingered for a decade now. John Stewart, a man who'd been dating Nolan's mother, Danica, for five months at the time of his death, was originally charged with his murder. But John was never prosecuted, and neither was anyone else. This case is a tragedy, and there was a grave injustice here. But much of the media coverage about this case has focused not on the fact that a baby was murdered and no one was held accountable,

but on the alleged injustice done to John. And this, too, was the focus of John's email to me last July, which began, dear, misguided, wannabe journalist, and detailed a litany of ways in which he felt he'd been victimized by Dr. Sally Smith and, in turn, by my reporting on the case. John is not one to mince words, as you'll hear, but I was intrigued by his email. I'd mentioned his case only briefly on the show, but John was upset at my framing of Sally Smith, who he claimed had lied about his case. I try never to lose sight of the fact that I'm reporting on real people and their real lives on this show. And if I ever hear directly from someone I've talked about, I think I owe it to them to listen. And I was curious about this case. A child had been murdered, and all these years later, there seemed to be so much uncertainty about what exactly happened. I was also increasingly aware of the deluge of media stories about alleged instances of wrongful accusations of abuse of head trauma.

So, I figured maybe the... the universe was giving me a nudge. We responded to John and told him that we'd be happy to look over any documentation he wanted to send along and happy to speak with him to get his side of the story. I didn't actually think he'd agree, but I was wrong. To start with, why don't you just tell me why you reached out to me? What was the impetus for that? Well, I was actually watching Dateline.

And a show about Dr. Vega being involved came on. And I was like, you know, I started thinking about some things, you know, in the past and everything. And so I contacted Chat GPP. And so then I asked them, you know, about my case in particular, Chat GPT. And it brought up your podcast. So I looked at it, listened to it, and saw that I felt that you were basically defending Sally Smith erroneously. And I needed to put it out there that Sally Smith is, I call her malpractice Sally. She's a doctor.

She's supposed to do no harm. And she has done more harm to so many people, it's my embodiment. But we're not going to talk about any other cases. We're just going to talk about mine in particular. what she's done to my daughter, especially, and things like that. So, yeah, so that's why I reached out to you because I didn't feel that it was right. It felt like the right thing to do to hear John out, and it was a conversation that I genuinely wanted to have. John was offering me a chance to ask the questions I wish my fellow journalists would ask in these cases.

You say the doctors lied about you, so what did they lie about exactly? We presume innocence in our legal system. The bar for conviction is high, beyond a reasonable doubt. The onus is not on the accused to prove that they didn't do the crime. But in the court of public opinion, the alleged abusers are the ones making an accusation. If you're going to claim a doctor falsely accused you of abuse, that's a serious claim that has serious impact. Undermining public trust in doctors unnecessarily causes a myriad of problems that can escalate into a full-on public health crisis. Measles outbreaks anyone? John was making some big claims about Dr. Sally

Smith, and I was listening, but I was also going to have some questions of my own. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. A reminder that if you want to listen to the six episodes of Season 7 ad-free, you can do so by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Patreon. You'll also get two bonus episodes

a month as a subscriber. This month, Dr. Bex and I are sharing some big updates on Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins and re-watching take care of Maya so that you don't have to. If financial support is not an option, we'd love it if you could rate and review the show wherever you're listening or share it with a friend

or two or five. Nobody should believe me is a proudly independent production. We're only here because of you. So thanks for listening. After 19 years, they're back. Frankie Munis, Brian Cranston, and the rest of the family reunite in Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. After 10 years avoiding them, how and lowest demand Malcolm be at their anniversary party, pulling him straight back into their chaos.

Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. A special four-part event, streaming April 10th on Hulu on Disney Plus. Danica Crawford was a mother of four young children with a troubled history. Both she and her children's father, Chris Kelly, had struggled with addiction and been in and out of jail. Danica had a tumultuous but tight-knit relationship with her family of origin, and at the time she met John Stewart, she was living with her father, Larry,

in a house adjacent to her mother and a number of other family members. Her father, Larry, regularly helped out with her kids while she struggled to get clean. Things eventually fell apart between Danica and Chris after their youngest child, Nolan, was born in July of 2015. And when Nolan was almost a year old, Danica met John Stewart. How did you meet this? How did you meet John? I met John on plenty of fish. Okay.

Is he the only guy you met on plenty of fish? Mm-hmm. Okay. The only guy I've ever met off the internet. I was with my kid's father for eight years. This is Danica talking with the detective. Did he contact you or did you contact him? You contacted me.

Okay. And then obviously you guys agreed to meet on July 21st? Yes. Where'd you mean that? Our first date was at. Riverwalk it was a kind of a play date he brought his daughter I told my kids they played on the playground and we just kind of sat on a bench and you know talked he was a date how did he seem then he seemed I mean to be honest with you I

haven't had I don't have a very good track record you know what I mean I dropped high school and started doing pills and getting in trouble and I met my kid's father and we were pretty much inseparable from day one and we kind of got together and just continued to make the same mistakes with each other and you know I've been in my fair share of trouble he's been in his And it was all pretty much because of, you know, the pills. And then eventually December 1st of 2014 was the first day that I took methadone at the PAR clinic.

And I've pretty much been off of everything ever since then. Have you left at all or? No. No. No. That's good. I mean. It's very good.

I mean, I went through the pills, you know, as high as I could go, as many as I could go, and then it eventually got to the point where all of a sudden there's everybody's doing heroin, you know, so I obviously transferred from pills to heroin, and then, okay, it was the first thing I ever took methadone. And everybody told me, you know, everybody that had experience with the methodome program and told me, you know, you'll try and do it once or twice, you know, in the first week or two you take in your methadone. But eventually, you know, that first or second or third time, however many, you know, depending

on your mindset, you'll realize that, you know, the methadone really does work in blocking the effects of opiates. And it did. And then that's when I realized that anything from here on out, as long as I'm on the methadone, anything that I do from here on out is pointless. And that's when I, you know, I've been just taking care of my kids, moving with my dad, and taking care of my kids, and, you know, dealing with their father being in a prison. I'm doing everything by myself. And I, you know, decided that I wanted to, you know, after some conversations, you know, between me and my kid's father, I realized, you know, early July, that's when I realized that I didn't think that.

It was certain that work out between me and him. Danica was trying to pull her life together, but addiction is a tough road, and she was definitely still vulnerable. Even more vulnerable were her four kids who were all under the age of seven when she met John. I can't say I understand the choice to bring your kids on a first date, but according to Danica, when she met John, he seemed solid. John messaged me, I could tell just from the first sentence in the message that he actually took the time and read my profile and called.

contacted me and wanted to talk more about me than, you know, hey, what's up? You want to meet up? You know? They truly seemed interesting. Yeah. And then when I got to, that's why I bring up my past. When I got to know John, and, you know, I told him on plenty of fish, you know, I told him the truth. I said, I had a drug problem.

I've been on methadone since December and I have four kids. And, you know, I didn't want to meet somebody and bombard them. Right. with all of the things that I have going on with me. You know, I got four kids. I'm on methadone. I'm on probation. My kid's father is in prison.

You know, I told him, you know, I kind of told him a little bit about myself, too. I'm like, you know, I'm not a prissy little, you know, I have makeup, poit-toity, you know, that's not the type of girl that I am. And if that's what you're looking for, then, you know, maybe we're not as compatible as we seem like we are. He was fine with all of that. And then he told me about himself. And he's, you know, Marine and massage therapist and bachelor's in, you know, anthropology and a master's in Florida studies. And he's like telling me all these things that are like nobody that I've ever met before.

You know, nobody that I've ever felt like I had a chance with. And, you know, and then here he is interested in me. me and it was like I latched onto it. It's exactly, honestly, that's exactly what I did. And then when July 21st, when you guys had your date, you were living still your grandpa's house? Yes, my dad's house. Okay.

From July 21st, where did it go from there? Um, well, we dated and hung out and I didn't start living with him. You know, I, I spent the night at his house. couple of times he had majority custody of his daughter I mean like four out of seven nights a week she was with him and it was kind of perfect because I always had my kids and it was very very rarely I mean once a year very rarely that I ever went anywhere and did anything that didn't involve bringing my kids along you know if that's if like I didn't I don't go to the clubs I don't go out to bars, I don't drink, I don't have a lot of friends.

I have my family and I have my, you know, lifelong friends, people that I've known since sixth grade. Rachel, I've known her since I was 11 years old. You know, that's what I did. So I started spending a lot of time with him and he started helping me out. He would drive me to get my medicine when I needed it and he would drive me to work when I needed a ride. He, you know, did anything that I asked of him. He played T-ball with my, you know, with my son. He paid to, he registered, he paid to register him for T-ball for the season that just ended.

And, you know, taught him a week before kindergarten started. My son didn't, you know, wasn't doing very well with his ABCs. He taught him how to say his alphabet and recognize letters and, you know, taught him his numbers. And it was just like, honestly, a fairy tale. That's what it was. It was like nobody that I had ever been around, not even people in my family. It was like he was completely different than anybody and everybody I had ever interacted with. John also had a lot to say about his positive influence on Danica's kids.

And just a note here that we've censored the names of the other children in this story to protect their privacy. I got him enrolled in baseball when he was under his grandfather's sole care, basically. He was sitting in front of a computer, eating junk food. drinking soda constantly and he weighed 110 pounds when I met him and then I got him enrolled in baseball I took it first what I did is I took them all to baseball games Tropicana field for the raise I had season tickets at the time and I had gone to every game that season and I would get extra bonus tickets because I'm a veteran so anytime that popped up I would bring anybody and everybody so I ended up

bringing Danica all the kids and everything like that and really like baseball so I got him him enrolled in baseball we got him enrolled in t-ball bought him a bat glove all that stuff and uh he started playing i played with him every day i taught him his ABCs his one two threes he was about two weeks away from going to school and um i was like uh hey sing you the ABC song and he was like he didn't know it and i was like oh okay no worries my man you know uh i'll help you out with that and uh and so every day we practice, and on his first day of kindergarten, he was one of the kids that was able to recite all ABCs and got to 20 in counting as well. Although John may have seemed like a night in shining armor at first, swooping in to be a

stabilizing force in Danica's life and a father figure to her kids, they still didn't really know each other, and their relationship moved at warp speed. When did you move in? I started spending the night at his house regularly. about three months ago. I mean, to the point where it was like, okay, take majority of my stuff over there because it was just easier to be there with him because he was taking me to do everything. It only took me every morning before 11, they have set schedules at the clinic. I have to be there Monday through Friday before 11 and before 10 on Saturdays and Sundays.

Because he was the one driving me everywhere, it was more convenient to be there with him. with him. And the kids had their room and beds and toys and movies and he has a fenced in yard. They could play outside, you know, and they had, he has dogs that the kids loved. How is he towards you? He was great towards me. All the time. I mean, he's always in a good moon. We've gotten into, I mean, arguments sometimes. He always liked to compare his daughter to my kids. You know what I mean? Like, he felt like at three years old,

like she was just exceptional and completely advanced for her age. You know, my daughter can tell you the definition of archaeology. She can tell you the definition of anthropology. She can say her alphabets and her numbers, and it was always a comparison to my kids. I don't think that would cause an argument with you. Exactly. Yeah, that's like, kind of feel like...

Like... And where did those leave? Are you telling me that my... You know, that's how I felt sometimes. And, I mean, there's a lot of instances where I would just brush under the rug, but if it ever did turn into an argument, that's where it went. It went to him comparing his kid to my kids. But it was never more than just arguing.

And it was never, you know, he was always very insistent that it wasn't in front of the kids. You know? We're not going to argue in front of my daughter. We're not going to argue in front of your kids. And he would always say, I know your kids are used to it, but my daughter's not used to it. And my family is a very loud family. You know, and we're not yelling and screaming and fighting all the time,

but it's not out of the norm for us to get into, you know, have a few words with each other and, you know, the kids be in the next room and hear us, you know? Or, you know, throw a few words at each other and then be in the living room while we're standing in the hallway. It's just not out of the norm. But his daughter, apparently from the way he made it seem to me, She's always been sheltered and, you know, you don't, people have never argued in front of her. She's never seen people getting fights and, you know, like, you never wanted it done in front of the kids. Merging families is complicated under the best of circumstances, and these were definitely not the best of circumstances,

as Danica's father, Larry, explained to the police. For the simple reason, I did not know him and speaking very straightforward honestly with you, because of Danica's behavior and lifestyle over the last six years with the kids, I was pretty much suspect of anybody.

They don't much care for a friend. I don't much care for Chris. He's a deadbeat dad, okay? But John and I butted heads twice in my house, but both times was over me chastising Danica over not helping me keep the house clean, and he thought he was going to

tell me not to. And that's... So John and I And John and I tolerated each other. And according to John, the mistrust with Larry was mutual. One time, you know, so my big thing when I had a back then was I didn't want anybody to yell and scream in front of her or fight or anything like that. Because her mom and I did that and I didn't like it.

And we, her mom and I grew up in an environment like that. And I tried to, you know, tried to stop it. And, you know, so when I got with Danica, I was like, please, no yelling or anything in front of it. and Danica mentions that in her interviews and reports and everything like that. And so Larry starts yelling at Danica about how she's a lazy piece of shit. She doesn't do this. She doesn't do that and all this other stuff.

And all the other kids are running around and everything and that. And I'm in the other room and they're in the living room when he's yelling at her. And I'm in Danica's room. And I come out and I'm like, hey, Larry, can you do me favor? Just when the one's here, you know, I'm not telling you not to yell at your daughter. just please don't curse and say the stuff that you're saying in front of my daughter. And he's like, fuck you, motherfucker. Get out of my house.

How dare you tell me what I can do and can't do in my own fucking place? And I'm like, dude, bro, I'm just, I'm literally, I'm like, you got it wrong. I'm just trying to freaking, you know, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just trying. And he keeps yelling at me. So I fucking snap out. And I'm like, look, motherfucker. Freaking, I pull up my sleeve.

I'm like, I'm a U.S. Marine. I'll fucking end you, motherfucker. All I asked was for you to be civil and polite and not be a piece of shit in front of my fucking daughter. And now you're making me fucking yell in front of my daughter, too. And I took a-up and got in the car and left. And the next day, he comes up to me. He apologized. He shook my hand.

He's like, I shouldn't have done that. I know you weren't trying to tell me what to do, you know. But in the heat of the moment, I got all shit and blah, blah, blah. And then we smoked a joint and freaking out on the back patio. John claims that he wanted to shield his daughter from tension, but in reality, his three-year-old had already witnessed plenty of conflict and even violence in his home. We're going to, like, his history with relationships with you,

like how some of those other relationships ended? Uh, yeah. What did you describe that? He told me about his mother, and he basically described that to me as some kind of conspiracy plot where she wanted custody of . And she knew that the only way she would be able to get it

is if she provoked him into hitting her so that she could throw him into jail and that she had previously discussed some big extravagant plan with one of her friends that was a wife to a friend of his. That's how he described it to me. One of the things that John took issue with for my original reporting on his case was that I mentioned that he had a history of domestic violence. In one of his lengthy email missives, John gave me a similar narrative about his ex using the police against him.

Here he is explaining it to me in our interview. Here's what I'll say about with B-Brick-in. She's the mother of my child. She's a good woman overall, but we've had issues and disagreements. and she uses the police to get her way. And in the first incident that we had, she called the police and told them initially, in her initial report, she told them

that I just freaked out over a fight over weed, which, you know, that sounds so logical, right? And just attacked her and, you know, and choked her and beat her. When in reality, I freaking was up with my daughter. I had my daughter playing in her playpen. I went to the front of the house, smoked some weed, came back out, was taking care of my daughter.

I thought that I smoked all the weed, so she got into a fight with me about that. And she picked up a and I told her, I was like, you just put in her pet, you know, in her crib, in her room and we can argue and do whatever. And she punched me in the face, took her into her room, came back outside, into the living room, and she freaking hit me again,

and that's when I struck her back. So I do not condone violence to women, but at the same time, after you've been struck twice and once in front of your daughter, and she had plenty of time to leave, she could have left the house, went her merry way, freaking did whatever, She could have, but she chose to stay there and hit me again.

And I'm not justifying or excusing my actions. I should not have done what I did. But that is what happened. John sent me many, many emails before this interview happened and many since. In several of them, he details how his ex, whose name we've bleeped and won't be using, was out to get him. He claims, as you just heard, that she started this altercation and that while he should have walked away, he wrote in one email, many would argue I had the right to defend myself in my own home. John also followed up in a separate email to let me know that his ex was six feet tall and had been a collegiate athlete,

while John is only 5'10 and had suffered a litany of injuries sustained in a series of accidents. So I guess, factor that in if you find it relevant. The police reports about the incident John describes paint a dramatically different picture, detailing how the victim had been found with abrasions on her throat, and face and lacerations on the side of her mouth. According to the report, John had thrown her to the bed and choked her to the point that she couldn't breathe. When she tried to fight back, John punched her in the mouth, only letting up at the side of blood on her face. This was also allegedly not the first instance of battery,

and it wouldn't be the last. This appears to have been a pattern with John, and his ex said that she mainly called the police because she knew her family would be mad if she didn't. Police on the scene read John his Miranda rights, and he reportedly told officers, she hit me, I want a lawyer. No one ended up pressing charges, but his ex filed a restraining order against him. Again, not for the last time. Danica didn't know all of these details when she was dating John. And from what she could tell, the exes appeared to be on pretty good terms.

They even all went trick-or-treating together. Danica and John moved fast, but a few months in, the cracks were starting to show. It's 6 p.m. after a long workday, your two children are hitting the energy crescendo that happens just as you and your spouse are at your most depleted. Bedtime looms just out of reach and you cling to the hope of being able to watch one brief episode of grown-up television before you yourself collapse. Everyone in the house is hangary. What do you do? Don't panic. You have Hello Fresh. So while your kids are bouncing off the walls, you're assembling a quick and delicious homemade meal with pre-portioned ingredients from a recipe so easy, you can execute it with the three brain cells you have left. And even better, you picked something from HelloFresh's

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on the first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Disclamer must order the third box by May 31st, 2026. You can find all that information at the link in our show notes, and remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Winter was long this year, but spring, my favorite season is finally here. I am ready to pack away my wool sweaters on the high shelf and head over to shop Quince's spring edit. So I've been talking about how Quince has become my one-stop shop for clothes and accessories, so I really loved their curated collections, and the spring edit does not disappoint. It features 100% European linen tops and pants, their Italian leather woven bags and totes. This tote was one of my favorite purchases from last year, and even sunglasses. So famously people in Seattle buy a lot of sunglasses because we forget that the sun exists and we lose them. But like everything on

quince, these sunglasses are luxury quality without the big price tag, so I am treating myself to a pair of the Barcelona polarized acetate shades. My other favorite thing in the spring edit is their light cotton cashmere sweaters, which are perfect for those chilly spring mornings and evenings. Refresh your spring wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to QI-N-C-E.com slash believe for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. If I didn't need John as much as I did, I would have gone my own way. But it got to the point where I was dependent on him. And it wasn't anything physical or emotional. You know, I love John

as a friend, as a person, but us, our personalities together constantly in a relationship, it just wasn't working out. I knew that. I don't think he did. I knew that. And like I said, I honestly was waiting and I mean, I don't want to sound like I was just using him, but I knew I had a plan, I had goals set up, and I knew that in the time frame that I had to do them and get them done, I felt like by February or March of next year, I would have been stable enough with myself to where I didn't need John for everything, the wait. that I did, the way that I do, you know. My mom, you know, told me that as soon as I got my license back, she was going to give me her Jeep that was paid off, and then I was, in exchange,

was going to give her $2,000 back for my tax return, so she could put down a payment for a vehicle, and at that point I would have my own car to get back and forth from work, I would be able to get back and forth from my medicine, and I would be able to live with my father. Those were my goals and you know just continue to go up from there job wise money income wise until I got to the point where I could get my own place with my kids that's what I was going to do and till this how many how would you ask me how many times do you think John watched your kids well just from the last just from now and till all the way back until Thanksgiving It's been six times.

So it's not like it's every single day. No, it's not. My kids, the way we worked is I would sleep at his house. We would get up in the morning, go get my medicine, and then we sat at my dad's house all day every single day. That's where we were, all day, every single day. We never went back to his house because my son goes to school right down the road from my father, and I wanted to be there before and after school.

You know, sometimes my dad would keep the kids. My youngest son, well, not my youngest, but I spent the night at my dad's house multiple times throughout each week. Larry would also later say that he thought Danica was more dependent on John than deeply in love. John had come on strong and quickly inserted himself into Danica's tenuous family situation. But according to John, he was helping her stay on the right track. Danica was a good mother when she was sober and that's when I was with her was when she was sober I didn't know her when she was an addict

and she was very upright and upfront with me from the beginning about all the trials and tribulations that she went through. She let me know from the start that she had been clean since her son's birthday, December 1st, the previous year and that she was working towards you know fixing her life she had broken up with her boyfriend who was the father of her four children he was in prison at the time and she

had broken up with him and she wanted to go on a different path in life and and she let me know all this and you know I went in I went into this knowing this and you know I took her to get her medicine every day we she You know, Larry says all the time in all of his interviews that Danica was a lazy piece of shit and all this other, like, heinous stuff about her. And maybe when she was an addicts, yeah, sure. But when she was sober, she kept that house clean. She kept Larry's plate. She cooked for him. She cooked for the kids.

She took care of everything there. And she still came over to my place and we still took care, you know, helped each other take care of the kids at my place and everything like that. She was, you know, as far, and I don't know now I haven't talked to her. And the last time that I talked to her was right after the case was dismissed. We talked on Facebook because prior to that, the court ordered that we weren't allowed to talk to each other. So once the case was dismissed, we talked one time and then that was it. But as Danica would eventually admit to the police when they pressed her with additional evidence,

John wasn't such a great influence after all. You're saying he's good for you, no problems. like that. You haven't had any problems since December of 2014, but yet in July you started testing positive for methamphetamines, ecstasy, stuff like that. All right? Mm-hmm. So where are you getting that from? Different people. From him? No. Never got a single thing from him. He doesn't, I think I got him to do it with me once and then he didn't want to do it again afterwards. What did he do with you?

The... The... Felt ecstasy? Yeah. So he did ecstasy with you once? Mm-hmm. Did he give you any pills of his? Obviously, he's got pills for his back, right?

No, he smokes weed. He just smokes weed, and that's it. Yeah. You smoke weed with him? I don't smoke weed. Okay. But you did his ecstasy with him? Yeah.

Beyond that? No. Did you... The ecstasy before you met him? Yeah. So you were already doing it? Yeah. So you weren't as clean as you say you were being?

There was, when I first started the clinic, I was doing good for a couple of months, and then I started hanging out with my friend Rachel, and she would get it and come over and hang out, and we would do it, and it was once or twice a month, and it went like that for about four or five months. And that's the only time, you never got a single drug from him? No. Nothing. No. Not even, other than weed, if you got it at some point, you said you don't smoke it, but other than weed, you never got a pill from him.

No. Did he ever take you to buy? Yes. And how many times has he done that? A handful of times. And he was okay with it? No. But he did it.

Right. Well, I, I mean, that's where the controlling thing, comes in, you know, there was a lot of things that I did that he didn't want me to do or didn't agree with, but if I'm gonna, I'm a grown-up, I'm gonna make choices. If I choose to do something, I'm gonna do it. What about getting a job? Him or me? Is he him? Does he ever get a job? What about you? I work. He was all for that. Okay, so he wants you to get a job. He's been trying to get a job.

Knowing that it's gonna put him more taking care of your kids, like he wanted you to get a job and be gone during the day and he was okay with this. He didn't so much want me to get a job. That was me. I wanted to get a job. That was my goal.

He just... And he had no problem with it. No. So like driving. Driving you to work. Oh, that sucks. I'm tired of making this damn drive every day. Or, you know, just some little quirks and stuff

does he say when he's taking you to work? No. He's never shown any frustration. I've only been working the last month or two. And again, he's going from a kid to now five kids. He's never expressed, to now five kids on his own. He's always been, what is the word? He's always, like, encouraged me, you know what I mean?

So he's okay, never said any frustration with the fact that he's now with your kids. Not to me. Not to who? I mean, I told him what my goals were, and he was fine with that. He encouraged me, you know, and I told him, you know, he wanted to get a job on the Air Force base, and he's been putting in applications through the different websites, and when I seen him doing all that, I decided that, okay, he gets a check from the disability, from the VA. if I'm going to be

you know what I mean having him take care of my kids and drive me around I might as well be contributing to things as well so I started working because he was already taking me back and forth to get my medicine every day he didn't just start driving me

he didn't start driving me to work until I just recently I mean you make him seem like he's Mr. Wonderful that's why this is so mind-boggling to me right now you understand what I'm saying like this is just just mind-boggling. Like, it really makes me feel like, what a, like, I feel like he was an actor, you know what I mean? And like, this little fucking fairy tale of a movie for the last six months,

where it was like he was just encouraging me, encouraging my kids, wanting us to do good, wanting us to do great, I'm going to help you with whatever you need, I'm here for you, I got your back, like, everything that I was looking for. But it was like, but it was like, You know what I mean? Like tit for tat, you know, we're going to start an argument. You know, you're going to say something about my kids. I'm going to say something about your kids. You're telling us that he has all this.

Every time we just tell you to generally describe him, you're talking about, oh, he's great, he does this, he encourages me, he doesn't do anything, he's not controlling. But then when we start nitpicking it, well, what about this? Well, yeah, he does do that, but. Yeah, well, he does do that, but. There's a reason for this. There's a reason for that. According to a CPS report made about a month after Danica and John started dating, Danica was on a maintenance dose of 65 milligrams of methadone a day.

Using stimulants like MDMA and meth while on methadone put Danica at risk for cardiac issues, delayed overdose, a reaction that can take effect hours after use, and other serious physical side effects. The combination is also known to compromise judgment, affect impulse control, and impact memory formation, even though a user can appear outwardly normal and functional. Her father, Larry, had bent down the long road of addiction,

with Danica and was consistently concerned about his daughter's drug use, and he also had some concerns about her new boyfriend. But I think that one of the things that John and Danica had between them about the kids was John provided, he corrected them. And that's what I said. I've seen John, I've watched John with the kids too. I've never seen him make a physical move on him. I'm pretty sure he knew better than that around me,

but he would many times be lecturing them like they were adults. There's been so many times I want to go out there and say, John, you're talking to a three-year-old, not a 20-year-old. But that's all. I mean, that's as far as it went. Do the kids like John? Not really. And truthfully, I was the one I was worried about because he is a handful. He's the one that had the black eye and the scrape that I call child services on.

I was watching really close, and I was also watching it. because she's a girl. Not that I'm insinuating anything, but just because she's a girl. I will say this, the last week or two, I have noticed that when John came in the house, he would go in the other room. And I've called him a couple of times looking around the corner at him. That's just the truth.

Larry was concerned enough about the children's safety and well-being to report Danica and John to CPS in August of 2015. About a month into their relationship, one of Danica's kids had ended up with an eye injury, which Danica and John told the CPI investigator was the result of the siblings' roughhousing with a wiffle ball bat. The intake report notes concerns that the children were left unsupervised while they were at John's house, and that they were often dirty and wore the same clothes for days on end. It notes the suspicious injury and concerns that Danica's history of drug use was affecting her behavior. This report also notes that Danica was arrested in front of her children for the third time that

same month after she was caught driving with a suspended license. The CPS report was closed with negative findings for maltreatment, but a later review by the Manatee County Sheriff's Office found that the investigation, quote, lacked a thorough assessment of the family and the impacts the family dynamics had on child's safety. The CPS investigator didn't attempt to speak to any collateral witnesses other than Larry who'd made the report and Danica and John, who were, of course, the subject of the investigation. No attempt, were made to corroborate the story of Danica's son's eye injury and resolve the conflicting accounts of how it happened. The Sheriff's Office report on this investigation noted that it should have been elevated to the child protection team.

The CPI investigator's original report dismissed the concerns, saying that the grandfather was just trying to get custody of the kids. This investigator decided independently, as a non-medical professional, that the child's injuries were consistent with the story John and Danica told, and did not follow up on unreturned phone calls from a school nurse and guidance counselor. Danica also refused to take a drug screen during this investigation, and she was on criminal probation at the time. The report notes that her last random drug screen, which had come back clean, had been seven months earlier. And no background screening had been conducted of John to confirm whether he was a protective caregiver. The CPI, Kayla Seifer, and her supervisor, Stephanie Metcliffe-Clark, were found to be in neglect of their duty for their actions in this case.

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and two out of three women rocked the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Over a series of interviews with the police, Danica's convictions about John's character begin to waver. Now he turned out.

Obviously, I don't know him that well. Let's you buy drugs. He drives you to buy drugs. He does drugs himself. Now we're coming out of that pedestal. He likes to be battered. his ex-wife. If you heard you say that,

he would fucking... He would what? Just... He's very verbal. He would sit there with his arm across and be verbal? I mean, what's that going to do? No, he would sit here and give you statistics and

and published, you know, tests and everything else about why marijuana is not a drug. That's how John is. John thinks he's smart. John thinks he knows everything. John, you know what I mean? Like, John,

John likes to pass his knowledge on. He likes to explain things to people. That's why a year old likes him so. He's at the stage where it's like a question about anything and everything. And John will sit there and explain. Any question asks, John will sit there and explain every little bit to him. To the best of his ability, he will explain it. I told you the other night that he had all kinds of issues as a child.

As a child, I'm talking about his life. I don't know what his life is here. I've known him for five months. You know him moment? to leave your kids. We watch you. Yes, I think he did it. I think he's capable of it.

I don't know that. I don't know him that well. Obviously, I don't. He's never shown any signs of being that type of person in front of me. You say that, then your mother says something completely different. My mom don't know him. My mom has been around him 20 times. And she says she's seen enough to be able to know, and she's only been with him 20 times.

You even got to the point in your relationship. to the point in your relationship, you talked about your relationship with him. And at a certain point, you said that the fairytale kind of ended. And you kind of knew, but you had your plan. You had your plan coming up. And you know what, there's nothing wrong with that. But obviously that fairy tale ended, something started to happen to make that to change. You know, something had to change.

I don't know. We need you to. Somebody can ask to speak up for more. Maybe. I don't know how emotional. he is, he never showed any emotion to me. How was he? Was he the quiet type of guy?

Yes. He just like, you know, what the hell? You know, or? I mean, he expressed verbally, you know, and they were like five minutes, you know what I mean, five minutes of him going, oh, I don't like it. I don't think it's right. And then it would be over. What, do you just walk away, slam a door or something and just go walk away, clear his head?

What if he can't walk away? He has your kids. He can't walk away. He's stuck in the room with them. Oh, I've never been with him in that situation. Danica is not the most reliable narrator of this story for a variety of reasons, and there were certainly some issues with her capacity to parent safely that predated John, such as her substance abuse and her four intakes to CPS,

all of which were screened out. Suffice it to say that this was a pretty tense situation even before John and his three-year-old daughter joined into the mix. It's frustrating that there wasn't more done to make sure these kids were safe despite the myriad risks. For most of the time they were together, both Danica and John were unemployed, and so usually home together with the kids. But on December 10, 2015, Danica was hired for a three-day temp job at an assisted living facility. On her second day at work, John dropped her off and returned home with Nolan and the other kids. Nolan was teething and sick.

So I was taking pictures, sending it to her. And I'm like, you know, he's getting a little bit worse. What should I, you know, where's the medicine? And she didn't respond initially. I put him down to lay for a nap. And, uh, and I were laying down in the other bed opposite of him. And I heard him make a weird noise.

So I got up and I looked over at him and he's laying there and his back is kind of arched. And I'm like, oh, shh, you know, what's going on here? And this doesn't look good, basically. And so I take a picture of it. I sent it to Danica and I inform her that I think he might have had, you know, a fit or a seizure because her other son has fits and seizures all the time. So I let her know, you know, I was like, hey, you know, this is what's going on? You know, what do you want me to do?

And she was just like basically said, just monitor them. If you get any worse, if anything else happens, you know, take him to take him to the doctor, the hospital. If not, uh, when I see him, when I, when you pick me up from work, I'll determine from there. I'm like, good to go. No worries. So I monitored him. I said, I found the medicine. I gave him some.

He seemed to be getting better. All that happened around noonish, I believe. And then, so then around 5, 435, I left with Nolan and I don't know if any other kids were with me, but I know at least those two were. And I went and picked up Danica from work. She took Nolan, she examined him. She was like, okay, he's just sick and, you know, and, you know, teething and everything else like that. Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing to worry about or anything like that. We go back to Larry's house.

I'm in the back of Danica's room. Danica's next to me with Nolan, and Larry comes in, and Danica and Nolan walk over to Larry. Larry picks up Nolan, and we conversate about stuff that, you know, was going out with Nolan, about how he was ill and everything like that. And then Larry goes and takes him and puts him in the other room, and he's going to sleep. And then we come back and we discuss about what's going to happen for the night, about where Nolan's going to stay and all the other kids and everything like that.

And we decided that all the kids are going to stay with Larry, except for Nolan. We get back. I make dinner, I think. And Danica gives Nolan a bottle of milk. And she goes and puts him down in our bed. And apparently about a half hour or so after he finished the bottle, he threw up. So she went and took him and put him in the sink, basically was able to examine him, look him over, see, you know, if anything was going on with him or anything like that.

And she thought that, you know, he was just, he was just ill. And I cleaned up and everything like that and got the bed ready. and then she put him down in the pack and play and gave him a bottle of water. We went to bed. I don't even know what time that night. We got up early the next morning. That would be Saturday. And apparently, as it says from Danica's report and then Sally Smith's report,

you know, that Nolan reached up to her, took two steps towards her, and, you know, was happy to see her in the morning. And then she picked him up. She got him ready. She got him ready. You could set him breakfast or whatever, like, gave him a bottle or did whatever. We ended up at Larry's at about 7 a.m.ish. And we're getting out of the car. I go and get Nolan.

He would fall on asleep. And when I wake him up, he starts crying a little. And Larry comes out and gets Nolan and takes him inside and puts him inside and puts him in the bedroom. Danica left for work, and she asked me to stay because I was going to take to her mother at noon that day. Danica was like, hey, can you please stay? My dad just had knee surgery, you know, and all four kids is going to be a little too much

for him to handle. And I was like, yeah, sure, no problem. I'll stay till noon. And I'm outside playing with all the other kids and I'm going. And he has Nolan in the bedroom. He comes out and he asks me if, um, if, um, if, If I have Nolan's Sippy Cup and I'm like, I mean, I thought there would be one inside or so I looked in the car and I couldn't find one. So he ends up going over to his other daughter's house at which she lives right across the street.

He goes to her house, gets the Sippy Cup and Gator. He comes back and gives it to Nolan. And then apparently from his account after he gives that to Nolan, Nolan seems better and is doing, you know, he's looking good and And so Larry comes out and starts cooking breakfast, I guess. And I guess he tells, he tells, I know he told me that he was cooking. He's going to cook breakfast. And he's in there cooking. And then all of a sudden he starts yelling.

You know, you can't let a kid get this sick that you got to take him to a doctor or a hospital or something like that. And I'm in Danica's room at the time. And I get up and I go over and I'm like, you know, I'm like, Larry, what's going on? And he's holding Nolan. And I could just see that there is something catastrophically wrong at this point. And I'm like, basically in my mind, like, what in the fuck is going on here? And I'm like, Larry, what's going on?

And he's like, we got to call 911. Manchin County 911 with the address of the emergency. I've got a baby. He's really sick here. He's coming in and out of consciousness. That's next time. on Nobody Should Believe Me. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, reported, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our co-executive producer is Mariah Gossett. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, story editing by Nicole Hill.

Research and fact-checking by Aaron Ajai. Additional research by Jessa V. Randall. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Our production manager is Nola Carmouche. Music from Blue Dot Sessions, Sound Snap, and Slipstream.