Nobody Should Believe Me - S07 E04: Something was Wrong

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Investigators work to reconstruct Knowellan Kelly’s final hours in the care of John Stewart and his grandfather. John claims there is exculpatory evidence that proves he didn’t hurt Knowellen, but is that really the story the evidence tells?  Featuring: Dr. Sally Smith, Child Abuse Pediatrician Dr. Russell Vega, Medical Examiner *** Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Please note that this show discusses child abuse, which may be difficult for some listeners. For resources about abusive head trauma, go to shakenbaby.org. In the days following Nolan Kelly's tragic death on December 13, 2015, Dr. Sally Smith and Dr. Russell Vega submitted their reports, leaving no remaining doubt what type of investigation the sheriff's office had before them. This was a homicide case. On December 22nd, Detective Stephen Luke, who led the investigation into Nolan's death, brought Dr. Vega and Dr. Smith together to conference about their findings.

They needed to get as precise as possible about the questions of timing, what symptoms Nolan was showing and when, and who'd had access to him when the injuries occurred. Someone had killed Nolan, and the devil was in the details. I know we talked about it extensively the other day with the bath. You gave him a bath. How did he see him during the bath? He sat right there in the sink. I mean, he sat up right there in the sink.

This is Nolan's mother, Danica, at talking to the police about the period of time on the evening of Friday, December 11th, when she and John were at home with the baby. The night before Nolan's second seizure and the 911 call. What was he playing? I mean, every time I have a child of bath,

you know, that age, you know, they're playing with the water, the splashing, all kinds of stuff. What's his normal? I don't usually give Nolan a bath in the sink. Okay. I usually bathe them either at my dad's house or at my mom's house because my mom has a bathtub and my dad has a stand-up shower.

John's shower is not really the cleanest. Okay. You know, I'm not going to stick my one and a half year old on the shower floor in there because his dog's shit in the shower, and then he just, it's just, I'm not going to put him in there. You know what I mean? It's gross to me. It's yucky, that's your body stuff. That's not my body stuff.

I don't want to put my kid in it. So when he spin up on himself, he kind of got in his hair a little bit, so I gave him a bath. He sat up in the sink. Whenever I bathed him in the bath or in the sink, he always fusses a little bit. He has his entire life. Okay. I mean, he fussed a little bit, but it wasn't like, you know, flinching or, you know, it wasn't like a painful fussing. It was like, you know, I'm in a cold metal sink.

hurry up and get me the hell out of here type of thing. You didn't see any bruises on him and see anything. No. I know the, I dressed him in the bedroom. I put him in a towel and carried him to the bedroom. I put him on the bed. He was laid flat out. Right. You would see it? Yeah, I would have seen any bruises he had on him. He didn't have anything on him. Nothing. No. Okay. He was kind of acting a little odd, maybe a little bit different that night?

I mean, he just seemed tired. He was looking at me He was, you know, making the baby noises I put him in the bed He woke up the Saturday morning And I went in there and I said hi to him And he reached up for me to pick him up

Like he always does when he's You know, it's first thing in the morning And he's ready to get out of the playpen Was he able to keep all his stuff down From the night before? Yeah, I mean, he spit up He spit up a little bit And I didn't give him anything else after that

But normal spit up that's not like, he like pute the half a cup of sippy cup or anything? I didn't, I mean, when he spit up, John brought him into the kitchen to me. I didn't, he, he didn't tell you, hey, your kid just threw up all over the place or anything. No, he said, no one spit up, you need to give him a bath. So I turned the sink on and made sure the temperature was good and pulled his shirt off and put him in the sink. sink and John pulled all the sheets off the bed and put him in the laundry room. That's why it's like now that I think about it and the way y'all are talking to me, it's

like it makes me feel like I wasn't paying attention. We're not saying you weren't paying attention, we're just trying to get all the facts of what occurred and all the details because whatever happened and whoever did it to him, no And we're all and deserves for us to know the truth and for us to go after whoever her hand. He couldn't protect himself. He was such a good baby. We're not saying whether you should or should and know or that's not our place. We're just trying to get exactly what happened.

We don't know what you saw. We don't even know if you know you saw something that's important. That's why we want you to tell you every or tell us everything. You may not think it's important. But then we might, or the doctors might, and be able to put two and two together. It could be something as little as you think that he's going through some change, that, you know, that could be important stuff. They try to fear out what's going on.

It could be something. I mean, like, Saturday morning, after I picked him up out of the playpin, and we were in the car driving to my dad's house, when I went to get him out of the car, it kind of looked like he was just, like, looking off into space, you know what I mean? Like in the face? Yeah, and I mentioned it to John, and he's like, you know what I mean, doing this to Nolan's face. You know what I mean, to see, like, if he flinches or reacts.

In the car? Well, we were stopped. We were in the driveway, my dad's, else. And he reacted to that, correct? And who took Nolan inside? I think he did. He did. People believe their eyes.

That's something that is so sensitive. to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. A reminder that if you want to listen to the first six episodes of Season 7 ad-free, you can do so by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Patreon. You'll also get two bonus episodes a month as a subscriber. This month, Dr. Bex and I are sharing some big updates on Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins

and re-watching take care of Maya so that you don't have to. If financial support is not an option, we'd love it if you could rate and review the show wherever you're listening or share it with a friend, or two, or five. Nobody should believe me is a proudly independent production. We're only here because of you. So thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Tell Us Online Security.

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Learn more at tellus.com slash online security. No one can prevent all cybercrime or identity theft. Conditions apply. All three adults in the timeline of Nolan's injuries, John, Danica, and Larry, seemed to agree that on the morning of Friday, December 11th, when John took Danica to work, Nolan was fine. a little bit of sniffles, but nothing dramatic.

Both medical experts agree that by the time John sent the Facebook messages to Danica a few hours after dropping her off, messages that included photos and a report of Nolan having a seizure, he had already sustained serious injuries. Danica didn't see these messages until the end of her workday, but it's hard to understand why she didn't seek medical attention for Nolan right away once she did. And it's also hard to square her reports from that evening with the rest of the evidence. However, there seems to be agreement between John, Larry, and Danica that by Saturday morning, in the final hours before the 911 call, Nolan wasn't doing well. Where's Nolan inside? 735, 740, estimate around there.

My mom took me to work Saturday morning. Okay. Did you ever go inside or did you go straight to the mom's? No, I went inside. I was dressed before. Usually I get dressed at my dad's house, but I got dressed at John's house Saturday morning. Okay. I went inside, I put everything down, I told my dad that mom was taking me to work, I told John Arnie knew my mom was taking me to work. I have to leave at least 750 to get to work on time and my mom is kind of a lolly-gagger, so I went straight to my dad's, dropped everything off, dropped everybody off.

I told John to keep an eye on Nolan because he had been, you know, sick and teething, and everybody, he woke up, you know, with the sniffles a couple of days before. So all of us were taking medicine. My dad had two things of baby Tylenol at the house, and I told my dad and I told John that if he, you know, starts running a fever or anything crazy like that, give him some medicine. And basically it's on your discretion whether or not you think it's serious enough to go to the hospital. Okay.

And then I, that's when... Did you walk to your mom's house or... John drove me. You drove you over your mom's house? Yep. I wanted to stop and get cigarettes from the gas station before I got to my mom's house. So he drove me to the gas station and then drove me to my mom's house. Just you and him?

Yes. Stayed behind there riding bikes and Nolan was in the house with my dad and my daughter was eating cereal. So he dropped you off there and then you assumed John Roberto was Your dad's house. Yes. From that point, what's the next thing you heard? That's when I started getting all the text messages about Nolan having seizure. You were at work at the time, right?

Yes. Well, we're on Saturday. Yes. Okay. And what did he tell you? He told you via text, right? Yeah, I texted him and I said, how's Nolan doing? And he texted back.

I texted him and asked how Nolan was doing, and then I went and started the exercises with the residents. And in that time that I was doing the exercises with the residents, he texted me and told me that Nolan was being picked up in the ambulance. He had another seizure. Or he had another seizure. He's on his way to the hospital. I think I might have said who or how, how's he getting there, who's taking him, and that's what he told me. The ambulance. The ambulance. Here's how John describes December 12th, the morning of the 911 call. We ended up at Larry's at about 7 a.m.-ish. And we're getting out of the car.

I go and get Nolan. He would fall in asleep. And when I wake him up, he starts crying a little. And Larry comes out and gets Nolan and takes him inside and puts him in the bedroom. And then that's the last that I see Nolan until Larry starts yelling at me about how you can't let a kid go sick. You have to take him to the hospital a couple hours later. And I'm outside playing with all the other kids and I'm going. And he has Nolan in the bedroom.

He comes out and he asks me if I have Nolan's Sippy Cup. And I'm like, I mean, I thought there were me one inside or so I looked in the car. and I couldn't find one. So he ends up going over to his other daughter's house. And which she lives right across the street. The whole family basically lives on a family compound in a cul-de-sac. And the grandma lives on the other side in the back as well. But anyways, so she goes, he goes to her house, gets the Sippy Cup and Gatorie.

He comes back and gives it to Nolan. And then apparently, from his account after he gives that to Nolan, no one. It seems better and is doing, you know, he's looking good and and so Larry comes out and starts cooking breakfast. He's in there cooking and then all of a sudden he starts yelling. You know, you can't let a kid get this sick that you gotta take him to a doctor or a hospital or something like that. And I'm in Danica's room at the time and I get up and I go over and I'm like, you know, I'm like, Larry, what's going on?

And he's holding Nolan. And I could just see that there's something catastrophically wrong at this point. And I'm like, basically in my mind, like, what in the fuck is going on here? And I'm like, Larry, what's going on? And he tells me he, I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was basically that we got to call 911.

This matches up pretty closely with Larry's initial version of events. He was dehydrated because he was the way he was acting. He wasn't active. He was laying there just on the pillows. And that's when I figured I'd get him some gatorade. Okay. Now, did you have the gatorade at the house? No, I had to walk across the street to my daughter's house to get the gatorade.

So roughly what time would have been to where that would have happened? Seven, eight, eight, eight, 15, 8.20? So anywhere between like 815, 820? I would say that's as close as I can tell you. I know it's hard. We're just, I know it seems like we're nip-faking, but we're just... Well, I understand, and I'm rehashing everything that I can think of. Believe me, this is all I've thought of.

So you had, now with that, you said you had to go get some Gatorade. I did. Walked across the street where would they be knowing that? In my bed. Okay, he was still in your bed? He was in my bed. Same spot you had him? That's, the only thing I can say, and this is what I thought about,

for the last day when I heard what was going on here is one of the times I walked in the back in the bedroom and I didn't think and I don't and I can't put a time on it's like I was really wound up there a little bit after what was going on is that Nolan was sort of at an angle to where I'd put him in and was leaning up beside the bed right beside him and I didn't think anything about it I just put my hands on and said hey buddy I'm you know I'd put them back where I'd had him and middle of the bed propped up on the pillows. That's the only thing I can think of that I didn't say. I don't know what that means, but that's... And when was that? That was when you were checking on them? That's where I get, I can't really make my mind up of what, when it started going down and I got so excited and panic, pretty much panicked, of it. It was one time when I walked back in the bedroom. Was there any times where you were there where you heard maybe

It was baby Nolan crying, screaming, or you're something that just, like, what the hell was that? When you were doing all your stuff in that morning? I heard him crying, but that was it, just crying. Is that normal for him or now? No one's not a cry baby. No, he usually cries if he's hungry or he needs to be changed. So we have that, give him the Gatorade, and then where are we at from there? I give him the Gatorade and then I go back in the kitchen and continue to cook.

And at that point I'm watching them. Then I, that is pretty much now, it's getting to the point where now, where everything starts happening. I walk back into my bedroom and he's thrown up the all the Gatorade. Now I did him the Gatorade in a couple of batches. I give him a little bit and I waited, then I gave him another little bit and then I walked back in there and he had thrown up all the Gatorade. And I picked him up.

Was it just the liquid? Just liquid. Gatorade that he threw up on that else? Nothing else but liquid. Was it only you who gave him the Gatorade? It was only me. Any about it? John didn't help out at all that morning?

No. Did you see John hole? No, John was out in the bedroom where he usually is. All right, so we did that couple times and then... He threw up. I picked him up, took him in the kitchen. Well, before I got into the kitchen, as soon as I went through my door, he threw up again. I was holding him forward.

He threw up again. And then I went and got the rest. and got the rag, the one rag and wiped his face. And then when I went back and laid him down, I really looked at them. This is where, honestly, it's a little confusing. I don't remember if I laid them back down and then left again, or if I laid them back down and right then,

that's where I sort of lose my line of thought. All I know is he'd thrown up, and at some point I looked at him and realized something was not right. And that's where I sort of, Everything after that, honestly, was a blur. What wasn't right about him when you looked at that? His eyes were doing what I said. He was laying there like this, and his eyes were half open.

And then when I picked him up, pick him up, as soon as I picked him up, I knew something was wrong. And at that point, I started yelling. Actually, I'd started yelling a little before that, because I was getting, because of what, I remember, I was basically bitching John out in the second sense, saying, and then you can't let babies get this sick before you, because that's what I was thinking, with his eyes like that, and the way I was looking, I'm going, you know, you can't let babies get this sick before you, you take him to the doctor. You can't wait until you've got to take him to the emergency room to take him to the doctor.

And so I was doing that sort of bitching out, but then when I picked them up and was really looking at him is when I really knew something was wrong. And then that's when I went to the front chair and laid him on it. And I think really, honestly, I was planning to just take them to the emergency room at that point. But then when I really looked, I said, there's no way I'm taking it. And I started screaming and yelled and I started calling 911. That's when John came in. What John did at that point? John started administering CPR.

But then, a little over a week after Nolan's death, Larry reached out to Detective Luke. He needed to talk. The thing I told y'all what happened last Saturday, as far as I can recall, is the absolute truth. Except I let something out. Okay. I made two mistakes that morning. First one was when I saw how bad Nolan was. I was that close to just take him through the emergency room, and that's when I decided to just go get some Gatorade and continue to cook breakfast.

After I gave Nolan the Gatorade and went back in and cooked, I gave him the Gatorade, he threw up, I went back in and saw you've thrown up, I cleaned him up, I went back into the kitchen, I put him back on the bed, I cleaned him up, put him back on the bed, went back into the kitchen and started cooking and Nolan fell off of my bed. He fell off your bed? He fell off of my bed. So Saturday morning, you saw him, he wasn't looking... There was something wrong with Nolan.

That's what I told you. I was on the edge, and Lord, I wish I had him just getting completely dressed and putting him in my truck and taking him to the emergency room. I decided to hydrate him instead to see how he would react to it. And that's everything I told you is exactly the same except what I just told you extra. I gave him the Gatorade.

I went in and started cooking. I was checking on him because I was concerned with him. Then I noticed he vomited. Then I picked him up. I did take him to the kitchen. and cleaned them up. I went back and put them on the bed. I walked back into the kitchen pretty much as pretty much as soon as I got back into the kitchen, I heard him fall and hit the floor. Okay. Did he cry?

Did not cry. What happened when he, so he, now what was on the floor when he fell? The rug. Okay, so he went out of a rug, so what happened after you... I went, I... How do you know he fell? I heard him. What did you hear?

I heard something hit the floor. So when you came back, did you go in the room after that? After you heard that? I ran into the room. And where was he at? He was on the floor beside the bed. Okay. How tall was your bed?

Not like that. And it's carpeted floor? Or it's not a... It's a tile floor with very cheap thin run on it. So when you came in the room, what did you see? I picked them up. You know, all the kids have rolled off our beds, honestly. They have and off the furniture.

furniture and they cry and you pick them up. I picked Nolan up and put him back on the bed. And I put him there and I looked at him and then I really look close at him. And then when I picked him up is when I knew something was wrong, bad. So after he fell, you picked him up and you knew something was wrong or before that? I knew something was wrong with Nolan before then. There was something wrong. Nolan wasn't right. I almost took him through the emergency room. So from Saturday the minute he got there. There was something wrong with him. Yes, there was something wrong with the room.

Now, when he fell on the floor, you went in the room, what kind of position was he in? Was he laying face up, face down? Was he sitting on his butt? Sir, I don't. I couldn't. He was not sitting up. He was laying on the floor. All I know is he was laying on the floor and I grabbed him.

And like I said, the kids have all fallen on the floor. Normally they are crying. You know, they hit the floor, they cry. And I put them on the pillows in the middle of the floor. of pillows in the middle of the bed and was looking at him. Now before that, I'm telling you the honest truth that there was something wrong with Nolan. I'd already noticed that he was sleeping, sort of like he was sleeping with his eyes half open. And that's why I was that close to take him to the emergency room. Larry is clearly shaken up in this interview. The family members

were learning new information as it emerged. And because the extent and manner of Nolan's injuries were only revealed by the autopsy, including the spinal cord injury, It was weighing on Larry that the fall from the bed might have killed his grandson. Here's Larry in a recorded deposition with John's attorney, Elizabeth Boyle, explaining why he came forward. I just kept thinking that, first of all, as I said, I thought it was simply he was sick. I did not realize how serious it was. That's why I didn't mention it at first. And then I kept thinking, and I was panicked and in shock.

And then I kept thinking, well, all the years I've spent trying to keep the kids out of the foster care system and out of somebody else's hands outside of family. Now I'm going to get called out on this, and they're going to be taken away from it. Once I really realized how serious this was and what charges were being leveled, I realized that I had to tell the whole truth, and that's why I did.

Because by December 18th, you knew, because Sergeant Karava just told you, he said that they really thought it was John Stewart. And then you thought to yourself, you thought, nobody in this. family nobody in this clan did anything to hurt I've got to come forward and tell them because they think they've got an unexplained injury if I tell them that the baby fell out of my bed when I was on the kitchen maybe that

just stopped this investigation I realized it was accidental fever objection I did not think that what I did think was that they needed to know everything that they needed all the facts that they needed to know that Nolan fell out of the bed and if it led to what you said so be it but I didn't go that far. I just knew that I needed to tell everything that happened that morning. And because I don't want somebody being blamed for something that they did not do. And that's why I knew I had to say it. Okay. It's always hard to judge people's actions and situations like this. I think there is often a delta between how we predict we would act in a given scenario and how we would actually

react in an intensely stressful and traumatic situation. But however, much one might empathize with Larry's situation, the late disclosure of this information cast further doubt on the person who was until that point the most credible of the three adults who'd bared witness to Nolan's condition in the final days of his life. And this is where the role of someone like Dr. Sally Smith becomes critical. If the witnesses are somewhere between unreliable and oblivious, where can the medical evidence fill in the gaps? The way that Larry, the grandfather, is talking about the kid that next morning, Oh, well, I didn't really look at him that well at first,

but then I realized he was really sick the whole time, and I should have taken him to the ER right away. And, I mean, I don't know what was happening there. Was there a discussion that was going on? Oh, no, we're not taking him. He's fine. He's just sick. He's sleeping, whatever.

But, you know, clearly this child was abnormal from that prior day all the way until he finally got to the hospital. And one of the things about his medical findings is that his brain was seriously swollen and showed bad evidence of poor oxygen level. It was advanced by the time he got to the hospital. In fact, within hours, he was brain dead. And, you know, for a 14-month, that's one thing for a two-week-old that has bad brain injury. They go fast. But a 14, 15-month-old baby, they've got a pretty well-developed brain.

And that, if they are not immediately killed by whatever trauma they have, it's a whole process of the swelling and it gets worse and then the herniation, the brain is swelling down the spinal cord and you lose the pupil response and you lose the respiratory center. And, you know, all that stuff takes time. So, you know, to me, there was significant evidence that he just kept getting worse and worse for hours. And then finally he ended up at the hospital. So, you know, trying to sort out why nobody did anything until finally he's having seizures and is completely unresponsive. I mean, you know, it calls into question other information that these people presented. But I think that

it was pretty clear that John was the caretaker when the child started into this condition. And he was never, you know, playing with the ball or, you know, going down the slide or eating food or anything normal. Questionable accounts from caregivers are a near ubiquitous element of child abuse cases. Though some perpetrators ultimately confess, many caregivers bring in their child with a made-up story or simply no story at all, telling doctors they have no idea what happened. And the non-offending caregivers who are present often don't know that a child is injured until it reaches a crisis point. And they may revise history to ease their own guilt for not acting sooner. These are all common dynamics in child abuse investigations,

but having three narrators who were this unreliable was definitely an issue. And I think one of the real problems with this case is that the information from the various people did not seem to be 100% reliable. And people said things that, I don't know, just didn't make sense. considering what these photos looked like and the severity of his brain swelling by the time he got to the hospital and how quickly he died.

A key piece of a case like this is identifying the last time a child was normal and when the onset of symptoms began. And in this case, there was some pretty definitive evidence. From the time that those photos started being sent to Danica, at which time John was the caretaker for the child, and he admits that he was the caretaker for the child, He clearly had, in my experience and, you know, training a significantly abnormal,

neurological condition on all of those photos. And then, you know, it's not like John then says, oh, Danica, everything's fine now. He's playing with the weables or something. No, he's asleep. These images and videos would become the linchpin of the state's case. Here's Danica asking John about them in a call that was most. monitored and recorded by the police as part of their investigation. I've been on my Facebook messenger and scrolling through the pictures that you sent me on Friday.

I've done that probably three or four times, you know, since all of this happened. And I can tell in the pictures, you know what I mean? Like at first when I seen them, you know, there was things that I didn't really notice. But after, you know, going through three or four different times since then and looking at him, there's like, you know, different things that I noticed, you know what I mean? like his demeanor in the high chair, you know, when he was eating breakfast and just, you know what I mean? He wasn't up walking around and playing, you know, like he usually is. He wasn't his normal selves, exactly.

I attributed that to him teasing and being a little bit feverish and sick from whatever he had because we'd been sick with the previous three weeks. Yeah. So. That was what I mean. I did the same thing, you know what I mean? Oh, I know. teething, four holers coming in all at the same time.

You know, my mom had had that really bad cold that kept her out of work for a week, which is crazy. You know what I mean? Fuck yes. Like I said, two weeks goes by. Nothing. I mean, as far as I can remember, you know what I mean? I thought, you know what I mean?

I thought Nolan, from what I can remember, pretty sure Nolan was okay Friday morning, you know what I mean? I mean, other other than the normal, you know what I mean, like I, you know, like you just said, you know, teething and, you know, the cold my mom had and everything. He was fine, you know. It's like it went from zero to 100. But then he rebounded after that too. I know. I know. It doesn't make any sense. It's like they throw a ton of bricks. It's like people are throwing tons of bricks. You know what I mean?

Yes. I just kind of wish I was there. You know what I mean? I wish I knew what happened. I know. 12 different people telling you 12 different things. As you may know, I recently moved the show out of my basement and into my very own office. And with that, I have been getting back into a routine of properly getting ready for the day.

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sponsors is a great way to support the show. It's 6 p.m. after a long workday, your two children are hitting the energy crescendo that happens just as you and your spouse are at your most depleted. Bedtime looms just out of reach and you cling to the hope of being able to watch one brief episode of grown-up television before you yourself collapse. Everyone in the house is hangary. What do you do? Don't panic. You have HelloFresh. So while your kids are bouncing off the walls, you're assembling a quick and delicious homemade meal with pre-portioned ingredients from a recipe so easy, you can execute it with the three brain cells you have left. And even better, you picked something from Hello Fresh's family-friendly menu options, so your beloved wild animals will actually eat it. Will they get up five times to do a dance

routine and cartwheels while eating it? Maybe. But you didn't have to resort to dino nuggets, and that feels good. And with Hello Fresh, you never have to fall back on boring beige food because you can choose from over 80 plus global recipes every month, including Vietnamese, Moroccan, Caribbean, and more. So many options made so easy. So forget the freezer meals. Don't blow your budget on takeout. Get HelloFresh because nothing hits like home cooking. Go to hellofresh.com slash nobody 10 FM now to get 10 free meals and a free neutral bullet ultra plus 2 and one compact kitchen system,

a 18999 value on your third box. Free meals applied as a discount on the first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Disclaimer must order the third box by May 31st, 2026. You can find all that information at the link in our show notes, and remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. The photos Danica and John are speaking of were included in the files John sent me, and these were reviewed by Dr. Smith, Dr. Vega, and the detectives in the case. everyone seems to agree that Nolan was fine on Friday morning when John dropped Danica off at work. And according to the medical experts, by the time these photos were taken, he was not. John, about something that both...

I wanted to ask you about something that both Vega and Sally agree upon. Okay. Which is that both, that Nolan came in with old and new fractures to his ribs that were, like, days, weeks, and months old, so there was evidence of other ongoing physical abuse. And they both agree that the photos that they saw show deterioration from a major medical event. So the disagreement was about the injury that ended his life. But for that to be, like, there would have had to be then some other significant medical event that caused the deterioration on the 11th.

They both agree about that. I don't think so. I think that Dr. Vega does not agree about that at all. Okay. And also, Dr. Vega, once again, he wasn't provided with all the videos. I'm going to read it to you. Okay, is that okay? So we can just know what the text we're talking about.

So at the end of Dr. Vegas, at the end of Dr. Vegas letter, he says, in summary, the child sustained injury, at multiple times prior to presentation to Manatee Memorial Hospital on December 12th, 2016. Some of these injuries were sustained many weeks prior, some were several days prior, and some very near to the time of presentation. The videos suggest that the child was suffering

from a major acute injury at the times they were recorded. However, it is not possible to determine at precisely what time any of these injuries occurred. The type and pattern of injuries and the history, as reported, are not consistent with accidental mechanism, It is thus my opinion that the cause of death is injuries of the brain and cervical and thoracic spine with spinal cord contusions. The manner of death is homicide.

So what he's saying about the videos that he saw is that the child was suffering from a major acute injury. So I think what he's saying is several days prior and some very near presentation, as in right before 911 and then several days prior, not the day before. You understand? Well, I think when he's saying that some. Some of these injuries were, you know, the many weeks, I think he's talking about the rib fractures that they found. That's many weeks and then several days prior and then some very several is not the day before. That's few days prior. Okay, but John, the piece I'm talking about is.

I did not harm Nolan. Okay, but John, I'm just, so, okay, so help me, help me understand your interpretation of this sentence. The videos suggest that the child was suffering from a major acute injury at the time they were recorded. So how do you interpret that? They suggest. They don't, that's not, that's not actually, there's, that suggesting is not definitive. There's a big difference between the two and any defense attorney and with their assault would, we're going to be able to say that in any, without any doubt. So it suggests, but it's not definitive. The, the facts are that Nolan was walking after these supposed injuries took place after these videos that were sent in.

And by the way, Dr. Vega only saw three videos. He didn't see the fourth video. He never saw the fourth one, which was reported later after these supposed injuries took place showing Nolan moving his arms and legs, which indicates that he was not quadriplegic at that time. Right. And so that's what I'm saying is that's... Or even, or even just paraplegic, which would have happened from the thoracicic injury, but that might be IHrogenic, so we don't know exactly what's going on with that. I want to address a couple of things that John is throwing into the mix here. In forensic pathology, the word suggest doesn't signal uncertainty or guesswork. This is standard professional language used to frame an interpretation of medical evidence. Physicians, particularly forensic pathologists, are trained to avoid using absolute or black-and-white language

because medicine deals in probabilities, patterns, and differential diagnoses. The other idea John introduces here is the notion that some of Nolan's injuries might have been iotrogenic or caused by medical care. So think of a rib that gets broken during CPR or an injury caused by intubation. But the medical examiner concluded that the injuries he outlines in his report were inflicted and contributed to Nolan's death, so not iatrogenic. Furthermore, when I spoke to Dr. Vega, it turns out he has seen the video John references. What do you remember about that, about that video? It's a tough video to watch.

especially the first time I watched it I was not expecting it to look the way it did because it was a video that was purportedly taken to demonstrate a well child I think at least that was the way it was initially described to me and you know

the people who were going to show it to me said that's what we were told but we don't necessarily think that looking at the video Doc what do you think and I can't say I could look at it and say there was a specific injury or deficit that the child had, but it was clearly a child that looked looked very sick, looked like there was something severely wrong, not, not moving, not postured the way a normal child would sit or or or recline or move and that's the other thing,

was almost no movement. Yeah, it was just it was disturbing to see that video. And it was not a video of a child that was having a seizure clearly and not one that was post-Ictal, which is the description we give to the state that you're in for a few minutes after a seizure, where you're a little lethargic and disoriented. But that does tend to pass relatively quickly. And that was not a post-Ictal state. So what we saw there had nothing to do with the seizure. So why was the child behaving in a way that we observed in that video?

Something was wrong. And given what we know that the child was injured, I think what was wrong was an injury. Which injury wasn't? Maybe the back injury in my mind is the most likely explanation. It would have led to severe pain in the child not wanting to move at all because any movement of your body involves your spurt. to some extent and with a spinal injury like that, I think it could have led to what we observed,

but I really don't know. I don't know. Yeah. When John talks about that video, he presents it as though it is exculpatory because it seems to be his interpretation that you're finding that the fatal injury would have immediately caused quadriplegia was perhaps now that I speak to you more definitive than it was.

And so I think the argument that he appears to be making is, well, there was a bit, and I have not seen the video, which is probably for the best. The fact that the child was moving at all in the video is sort of exculpatory evidence that he didn't. I agree. I agree. But as I've said, that he didn't cause the neck injury, right? Because as we said, I expect that that neck injury wouldn't have allowed to do anything, not even breathe. So it's evidence that it's evidence that the neck injury that you observed in the autopsy had not yet happened. That's what it shows? It certainly the neck injury was not at the state of evolution that it was at the time of the autopsy when those videos were taken.

And that leaves me two possibilities then. Either the injury was there but hadn't evolved to that point or was it as severe initially but got more severe later for some reason or that it wasn't there at all. It's one of those two things. So either, yeah, so either there was some kind of evolution or that neck injury, so though the child was exhibiting possibly symptoms of these other injuries, that the neck injury didn't happen until the next day or that something had happened and it sort of evolved to what you saw when you did the autopsy. Those are kind of our two options. Okay.

Yes. I mean, if he had a neck injury that was severe enough that it was causing some cord compression but not actual hemorrhage and contusion. Maybe that could have caused some compromise but not full quadriplegia and that he got an additional neck injury in the time period between the video and when he was found the next day that caused it to be, go from just being compromised to being flat out contused and truly what we would call a quadriplegic state.

Yeah, I mean, I think those remain possibilities. The other issue here is if the injury, the neck injury wasn't there at that time, and it occurred later, how did it occur? Is it possible that that injury occurred from a fall from the 26-inch high bed? Yeah, that was actually my question is, you know, so it seems to me that as you kind of pointed to, like, the injuries, the totality of what happened to Nolan and the fact that he died could not have been caused by itself from a fall off of a bed. And, you know, and that was why I sort of got to the, you know, obviously the homicide question. You know, obviously, like maybe for a normal healthy kid, that's not going to cause a catastrophic injury.

But if a child is already super compromised and already has, you know, some pretty serious injuries, could, it seems to me, like a fall off the bed could worsen those. I mean, is that, is that like a plausible scenario? I mean, I think it is. It is absolutely true that the likelihood of a lethal injury falling from a 26-inch bed should be very close to zero. I hate to say things are absolutely impossible. The right fall with the right position on the right object at the right time under the right circumstances, I mean, is it possible? Maybe. But if you do that to, you know, a million kids, is it likely that any one of those million are going to die? I don't know.

That seems unlikely. But herein is a part of what we have as an underlying issue. in the medical examiner or even the child abuse community. You can't go out and do these kind of double-blind controlled studies. You can't go and take so many infants and see what happens to them, or you can't roll too many kids off of beds and see how many get serious injuries. So the science is based largely on anecdote and statistic and empirical evidence that's cumulative, right?

And the cumulative evidence weighs very heavily. against a fall of that distance causing this kind of injury. And which makes sense from our understanding of the biomechanics of it and what these falls do to tissues and forces involved and everything else. But yeah, it's possible. I think pretty unlikely, but possible. Winter was long this year. But spring, my favorite season is finally here.

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Peace contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. While Larry's disclosure about the fall threw an additional wrench into the works as far as how reliable he was as a historian, both medical experts agreed that a fall from a bed

would not have caused the injuries that led to Nolan's death. And again, there were the photos and videos that John took in his own reports of the seizure from the day before. And the many hours that John's messages to Danica went unread, while he, as Nolan's sole caretaker, declined to seek medical attention, despite what both experts describe as a critical situation. I saw the videos, yeah. Yeah, can you describe what you saw in the video?

I don't know that we're going to have access to those we might, but can you kind of describe what was in the videos that were taken? Well, the still photos and the condition that the child was in, the videos didn't show him moving at all. He's just laying there. In that condition, completely limp, appears to me at least to be completely unresponsive. In one of the videos, the kids are running around. It's noisy. They're eating pizza. You know, they're running all around in the living room and he's just laying there doing nothing. I mean, it's so, you know, it is quite horrifying how all of the adults, you know, to your point,

like really failed this child. And the decision to not take the child to the hospital much earlier is unforgivable and inconceivable as a parent. I just think like, you know, it's just very sad because he wasn't two weeks old. A 15 month old if he had gotten prompt medical attention, might not have been a normal kid from then on, but, you know, yeah, not good. But it could have been, like, do you think that he could have lived if he, I mean, I know it's impossible to say for sure, but...

I think there was a fairly good chance that he would have. Yeah. Because he didn't die in an hour. John appears to start picking apart the story of Nolan's injuries, almost as soon as he's evaluated by the doctors. This is a piece of conversation captured between Danica and John in an interview room after their separate interviews with detectives. He's freaking...

has some pressure on his brain, but there's no belief. and he has broken ribs that have healed, there's no new fractures. That's what they told me. They told me, they said the injuries that he has are consistent with abuse from an adult. Oh, that's what they're trying to tell me to. And I'm like, so you're telling me that he could get fractured ribbed from my 90-pound falling on him?

Instead of my 90-pound, 10-year-old, fell full force on my one-year-old that wouldn't be enough to fracture his ribs or bruise, you know, You know what I mean? Like I got boys. They fight all the time. They jump on the bed. They'll ask them. I said like, how are the kids? I'm like, the normal kids. You know, freaking. Let me ask me, what do you think about Larry? What do you want to know? Do you think that he's a, you know, he's a good caretaker? I was like, honestly, no.

know. I mean, overall, yes. Because at the end of the day, I mean, if you consider that the kids are, you know, freaking alive and happy, then yes, he's a good caretaker. But at the, if you look at it, freaking, he's been taking care of the kids for a long time now, you know, and he freaking never taught them ABCs or one, two, threes. You know, he freaking, he let's, he let's, he let's, he, he, let's them pick whatever they want to watch on TV. Whether it's appropriate or not. He freaking, you know, oh, they ask them for anything,

oh, can I have a cookie? Here you go. Oh, can I have a cookie? Here you go. Can I have a cookie? Here you go. Whether it's five cookies or take cookies or cookies. Can I have a Poolead? Can I have soda? And anything they ask for, they get. So, on a day-to-day basis, he's not a bad caregiver. But overall, I think it's, you know,

and then I told him about the diaper situation and stuff. situation and stuff like that and it's like over at my house you don't just had one accident in the last month maybe two in the last two months freaking and that was our fault because we let him drink later in the in the evening and we didn't make we didn't watch and make sure that he went potty we just told him to go in to do it so yeah that's our fault but i don't know who who the kids are around the merry christmas house i mean i don't know what other people Chris has hanging out over there. I don't know what other people

has hanging out over there. They also asked me if I would take a voice stress test. It's like a lie detector test. I was like, is it admissible in court? And they're like, no. I was like, then it's

not a viable option. Just to have a false positive and freaking you guys accuse me of something, no, I'm good. Thank you. I'll pass on that. A voice stress test. Yeah.

One of our kids is in the fucking hospital. Exactly. No, we're not stressed. Our voices aren't going to be stressed. Well, apparently they can tell the stress that you're at now, and then if you're a certain question. I don't know. Anyways, I'm like, and I ask someone, is it scientifically backed up?

Like, what are you talking about here? Is this, like, the drug test that I've heard that they've been given out by cops, that freaking people who have never done or drugged in their life for popping positive for her? I'm good on that. And then they asked the ticket to search my house. And I told them, yeah.

And then they brought the paperwork in here. And I was going to sign it. And I was like, well, are you guys going to go over right now and do it without me being there? I was like, because that can't happen. I have to be there when you guys go in there. Because I'm not going to have one. You guys shoot my dogs.

Because you kick the door in and they don't listen to you. I'm not having that. Sorry. I've heard way too many stories. You shouldn't let nobody search your house without you being there unless it's fucking court order anyways. Well, that's what I'm saying? What the fuck they think they're going to find? Exactly.

You guys want to come over and look at the premises? I'll more than welcome. You're more than welcome to come because they said they want to check out the sleeping arrangements. That's fine. You guys come check that out? Danica, Larry, John, and Christopher Kelly, Nolan's father, were Nolan's primary caretakers. and therefore of interests to the police. All were interviewed at length

and offered something called a truth verification exam. Here are the detectives talking to John about it. Before we go through, let me just ask, I'm gonna ask you two very pointed questions. Okay. I want to tell you honest truth. Yes, sir. Okay?

Did you hurt Nolan? No. Do you know who hurt Nolan? No. Would you consent to a truth verification exam to prove that? No, they're not verifiable in court. So I've been told by numerous people

and never do that because they don't show one way or the other. They're unreliable and no. And I'm not talking about a polygraph. I'm talking about a voice stress analyzer. I don't know the science behind that. I don't know the technology. Is that allowed in court? Is that, you know what I'm saying?

Like, is that a verifiable thing? Is it? I don't know what you're asking. Is it like the lie detector test that is not allowed in court? It's currently not allowed in court. No, it's not. take that. I'm sorry. I don't trust that stuff. I've heard way too many times where false positives have been given for numerous things, and I'm not about to have that. Okay. So you wouldn't want to do that?

Negative, no, thank you. Okay. All right. A truth verification exam is similar to a lie detector, or polygraph test, but it's a more bare-bones voice stress test that focuses on a couple of key questions. Now, importantly, these tests, which measure a respondent's physiological response to a given question, can't actually determine whether or not someone is lying. They are mostly used by investigators as an interview tactic. And as John notes, the results aren't admissible in court, but whatever a person says to investigators before, during, and after, is. Agreement or refusal to take the test is more of a measurement of cooperation than anything else. Attorneys often advise clients not to take them, so John's refusal isn't some

kind of smoking gun. However, it's notable that Larry, Danica, and Chris did all consent to take the exam. And John actually brought this up to me during our interview. I have Larry's... Oh, Larry Sheld a lie detector said, too, by the way. Larry Sheld has a stress analysis test, voice stress analysis test, by the way. Okay. I don't have that. I have Larry's interview with the police where he's adding to the fall. You do have it. It's in like all the, like when I sent you that like 168 page of freaking stuff. It's in the state discovery? Okay.

Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I was finally able to obtain, not from John, the recording of Larry taking his truth verification exam. Did you injure Nolan? No. Is this the month of December? Yes.

Do you know who injured Nolan? No. So again, I want to emphasize that this test measures a physiological response and the idea of passing it or failing it isn't scientifically sound. But when John says that Larry failed the lie detector test, what he's referring to is that there was some deception indicated in one of Larry's answers, when he responded no to the question,

do you know who injured Nolan? Here's the detective explaining that result to Larry in the moment. I mean, there's a little bit of tendency on the do you know, but I think that's just because you're piecing it together. I am. And it's, I am. It's natural. I mean, I honestly don't like asking that question for the most part, especially in cases like this where everybody's kind of had the time to formulate an opinion.

I think your daughter also kind of had a little bit on that one, too. But the did you, there's none. So, you know, we're good there. It's a very, it's sad. It's terrible. And you know, all I can say is you read about this. This happens all the time. You read about it in the papers all the time,

but you know what, man, until it's you. Larry never seems terribly anxious to pin anything on John in his interviews. He seems more like someone in a very traumatic situation who is trying to figure out what happened to his grandson. And by the time Larry had this conversation with the police, the evidence was becoming much clearer. Here I am discussing it with Dr. Vega. It just seems like this is a case where the medical findings are really hard to square with the circumstances.

You know, because as far as I could tell, and this seems to still be the case now, you know, looking at the police timeline and all the documentation we have in Sally Smith's report and talking to her and, you know, and talking to John and seeing some of these photographs and reading his messages that the child was having a seizure. You know, you have this situation where it seems like there's only three possibilities, given that both you and Sally appear to agree that the video that was taken, John's message that a child that does not have a seizure disorder is having a seizure, and, you know, the photographs that he took and those were all part of the evidence, right, because he sent them back and forth to Danica. And so it seems to me, best as I can tell, you know, the last time we know that Nolan was his normal healthy self

was in the morning when Danica left for work and he was only with John for a period of time. And then that's when John said he's not doing well, he just had a seizure, he sent the messages, he sent the photos. So it seems to me that there's pretty strong agreement that by the time that photos were taken, something bad had happened to him that he was suffering from an injury. and then nobody and it's been i have not been able to get a hold of danica but she seems to have described him as you know there's no real descriptions of him like running around playing eating like nothing normal after that right she says he was lethargic he threw up in the evening she gave him a bath she put him to bed and then he wakes up in the morning they take him to the grandfather's house

the grandfather appears that you know thinks he's really sick leaves him in the bed until he has a seizure and he comes in there and he'd fallen off the bed and then he calls 911. And so sort of with that timeline, I can only sort of envision that there's three possible scenarios at all, one of which is that John injures the child and that injury then evolves, as you said, you know, and which was sort of what Sally pointed to, to the point where he's then, you know, has the second seizure the next morning and goes to the hospital and that that's one injury event. Or, that there's one injury event here from which he's suffering the rest of that day, and then a second incident the next morning where either John or the grandfather

injures the child again and causes the cervical, the spine injury that you were talking about. And, I mean, is that kind of your understanding of the three possible scenarios? like two injuries by two people or two injuries by one person or two injuries or one injury by one person. Like those seem to be the three possible scenarios, right? I think that's pretty much true. The other injuries sort of play into all of that, but that doesn't, they don't change the general dynamic and timing of things that you spoke of. And I think it's important to note too that if there's a consideration for the possibility that somehow the neck injury could have been sustained by a fall off the bed, for example, or the brain injury from a fall off the bed, or something of that nature, or that these things could have been manifestations of this seizure disorder that the child manifested the day before.

I think the cumulative nature of all four of these separate injury categories or such, in my mind, essentially eliminates that possibility, that the possibility that this was just a one-off accident when we have multiple traumas that have occurred over time, both in the short interval like you were describing, but also over the long term because we know we have healing ribbed fractures. To Dr. Smith's thinking, all of Nolan's injuries, which led to his eventual death, happened at once on Friday, at the hands of only one possible person.

Dr. Vega concurs that serious injuries happened Friday, but leaves open the possibility that there was a second injury event on Saturday. morning closer to the 911 call when there were two adults present. So, does Larry Crawford know who killed Nolan? Yes. He's one of only two people who will ever know for certain. Because if Larry didn't kill Nolan, there's only one other person who could have. You met her since July, and now you have five kids, right?

Yep. It's a stressful situation. Not really. It happens. What happens? People sometimes flip out. They get upset. You know, something with the situation.

But for what I have is that there's nothing, it would happen during your watch. This would have been that time frame when you were watching Nolan, something had to happen. I didn't do anything, so I don't know what happened. That's next time on Nobody Should Believe Me. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, reported, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our co-executive producer is Mariah Gossett. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Aaron Ajai.

Additional research by Jessa V. Randall. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Our production manager is Nola Carmouche. Music from Blue Dot Sessions, Sound Snap, and Slipstream.