Nobody Should Believe Me - The Making of Love Trapped with Stephani Young

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

After listening to Love Trapped, Andrea invited host Stephani Young to discuss the investigation behind the series. Together, they explore what happens when evidence collides with public perception, why stories like this resonate so deeply, and the responsibility that comes with telling them. *** Listen to Love Trapped: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-trapped/id1878220033 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and we're back with a double dose of nobody should believe me this week. Today, I am talking to Stephanie Young, host of the Love Trapped podcast. If you listen to my discussion about this series yesterday with Michelle In Chalice, you will know that I love this podcast and also that I have some big feelings about it. We are going to dig into all of that today with Stephanie, and this conversation was riveting. Love Trapped is the story of Laura Owens, who became notorious when she was a lot of, claimed to be pregnant by the Bachelor, Clayton at Cart, and trust me, if you think you know this

story, you have no idea. Because while the story about Clayton was wild, he wasn't the only one. You can listen to the whole season of Love Trapped wherever you get your podcast right now, and stay tuned for updates on their continuing coverage. Right now on our subscriber exclusive feed, we've got even more Michelle and Chalice for you. So if you enjoyed our chat yesterday, go check out part two over there. Thank you as always for tuning in each week. week. We will be right back with my conversation with Stephanie Young. Hi, Stephanie. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm doing well. How are you doing? I'm great. Thank you for asking. Well, it is lovely to have you on. I would say our shows are friends. Friends for sure. Yeah. And you work with the team. I don't know if people know this, but you work with the team who makes betrayal and

Betrayal Weekly. I do. And so I feel like we are just sort of steeped in some of the same themes, traditions, general sort of like the, you know, we deal with a lot of deception. So I thought it would be really interesting to have you on and talk about this fascinating case of Laura Owens and your truly excellent series Love Trapped. I have listened to every episode. I have been on the edge of my seat. And so congratulations to start with on putting together an excellent show and just the success of the show. Thank you so much. I knew the story was wild when we took it. And I'm grateful that the response has been like it is so that the victims of the story can have their accounts told in a way that made sense to them. Yeah. And so what's interesting about this series is that it is not

breaking the story. It's, this is a story that has been tremendously well publicized and is probably one of the most well publicized accounts of someone engaging in these behaviors with the fake pregnancies and this incredible pattern of deception. And yet somehow you had so much material to work with that was unexplored, that was new. And I wonder, just to start with, like, how did you, how did you come to this story? How did this story get on your radar? So it's really funny. I actually applied to work for Glass Podcasts back in 2021. And my husband and I are actually in the same field. And we accidentally both applied for the same job in 2021. And he has more experience.

and I do, he ended up getting it over me. It was down to the both of us. And I don't even think they knew that we were in a relationship at the time. I think it was just like we were two different people. And so then I went and took another job with a news organization. And I loved that job so much. And I got laid off at the end of 2024. So I was looking for my next opportunity. And Glass podcasted kind of stayed in touch because my husband still worked there. And they were like, you know, what is Stephanie up to? did she, you know, they were always asking if I was interested in working there or coming back. And I was always like, no, I love my job. So then when I got laid off, I said, okay, I'm ready. Do you guys have something? I'm ready. And they were like, no, we don't have anything.

And then May of 2025 rolled around. And this was something that they had on their slate. And they presented the story to me. And I remembered the story because I lived in Arizona. And like, I still kind of have a connection to like news and media. all the stuff there. So when the story broke, I remember I was actually in Arizona shopping for wedding dresses when the story broke. And so I had a connection to the story. I had a connection to Arizona. And I was like, no, this sounds great. Like the true crime pop culture crossover is something that like just really excites me. And so I was like, yeah, let's do it. And so then I met Clayton pretty quickly thereafter. And I would say that the success of the show is built on two things.

And one of those was that Clayton was extremely honest and vulnerable the entire time. It's really rare to get a storyteller that will open up as much as he did. I mean, we had some weird conversations. Like, we're just meeting. We're talking about his sex life. We're talking about how it's possible that he didn't think she could be pregnant. And, you know, really strange conversations pretty quickly. And the second part of the success is that I believe that there were so many people that

were investigating the story already. And what I kind of did was talk to all of them and put all of their stories together to make love trapped. I obviously did investigation of my own as well, but to have people that were constantly looking up court documents and knew where things were and said, this is where you can find this court hearing. And it just made things so much easier. And I'm grateful and lucky to have the online community that actually like helped put all of this together. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's, that is a huge job, though, right? I mean, I think like we, we end up working with a vast amount of materials for most of our stories. And even when we're sort of breaking a story, you know, there's obviously people that have done research on various

things and have depths of knowledge on various things. And it really is putting together that thousand piece puzzle. And I think that what is fascinating. and what fascinates people about stories of deception is that they sort of never end. Like, there's kind of always another layer and there's something they've done more recently and there's just, and so I think you did such a great job in the show and I was going to say, oh, we can avoid spoilers, but I'm just not sure there's any way to spoil the show. I mean, I think a lot of people know and knew going in, like I knew going in the basic, you know, outlines of the story. and to say the devil is in the details is an understatement.

And the story's still going. So there really aren't any spoilers because we still don't know the ending. Yeah. And what were some of the things that you sort of having a little bit of knowledge about the case going in? What sort of surprised you most about what you found once you were putting all the pieces together? One of the biggest surprises to me was in episode five. that's where you're going to hear it if you haven't listened yet, is when I found out that Laura had accused Clayton's attorney and Greg Gillespie's attorney of conspiring to have her

raped. And there was never any formal FBI investigation. Greg Woodnick called the FBI. He called the police because he didn't understand where this allegation was coming from. And I remember having the conversation with Greg Woodnick about that in his office. And I remember him tearing up and being so upset and hurt by it because his career is family law and his career has been volunteering and doing pro bono work for Planned Parenthood. This is not a person that would do something like that. And that was one thing that really, really shocked me in the investigation. And I would also just say, like, digging into Mike Maruccini's story, like Clayton's story was a little more public than Mike's story was. And so getting to hear all the specific details from Mike.

himself and hearing from his wife Danielle about how it affected her and how she came to believe him after domestic violence accusations on the TEDx talk and just hearing all these moments where she realized she could trust him and believe him even though those allegations were out there. Yeah. And you know, you were talking about how Clayton was so vulnerable and forthcoming. And I think it was, you know, there's so many gendered aspects to this story. And we'll dig into those. And I think the way that gender sort of hovers over, presses down upon these stories in my work is something that is sort of a constant subject of fascination for me. And I think one of the interesting gendered things about this story is that the primary victims were met.

This is not a way in which, for the most part, and we can kind of talk about the cultural scripts around this that do play into some stereotypes. but I mean, this is not sort of, it's not a victim story that you're used to hearing. And I appreciate that Clayton Eckhart made space for these other victims and seemed to really care about them as well. And I think it was interesting that you sort of have Clayton Eckhart. I don't know a tremendous amount about him. I'm not, I'm not a regular bachelor watcher. I don't think I expected to like him as much as I did. And I think he is this. Me neither.

Yeah. So tell me about it. Tell me about that. I had to tell him to his face. And one of our early conversations, you know, when he was announced as the bachelor, he was announced as a bachelor before we'd even met him as a contestant on the bachelorette. And it was the first time that the bachelor had ever done that. They usually like let you see the people and then they kind of announce who it is after.

So you have that like connection to that person so you like them. So I remember when they announced Clayton as the bachelor. I was like, who is this guy? Like, why do I care about him? It was kind of like on my downslide of watching The Bachelor anyway. And I was like moving houses at the time. And I was just like, I'm not watching that season. I'm bored.

And then you hear about how poorly his bachelor season went. And I'm like, oh, yeah, glad I didn't watch that. He seems like kind of an idiot. And then I remember seeing the headline that he got someone pregnant, like the headline in September, 23, that came out in the sun. And I just remember thinking like, yeah, seems about right. And I told him this. And he goes, you and everybody else. Everybody else thought that. And so when I finally got to sit down and have conversations with him, he is thoughtful. He is kind.

He cares a lot. He talks a lot. He'll tell you that he talks a lot. He likes to talk about his emotions and his feelings. And yeah, I mean, it was interesting to see him in real life. And granted, this was a few years after his bachelor time. I didn't know him when he was on the bachelor. But I would say that he's not the person that he was portrayed on that show. So it's interesting because a lot of people are like, oh, Clayton, I didn't watch, I didn't watch him on The Bachelor. I did watch him on The Bachelor. Like I don't care about The Bachelor. And then by the end of the series, they're like, Team Clayton. Yeah. And I think reality television, oof, I mean, we could go into a sort of a whole sidebar about what it does to people psychologically. Well, I think there's a lot more conversation about that, right?

Like what you are seeing is, yes, it is the real person sort of, but it's produced, it's edited. They're putting them in this very sort of specific Stanford Prison Experiment type, you know, set of circumstances. Like, it's not going to bring out the best in most people, maybe slash anyone. Why people keep signing up for this humiliation factory is like another question and what that says about where we are as a society. but that's that's above my my pay grade for this particular thing. But I think it was interesting because the Bachelor franchise, and I think, part of, you know, not, and again, Bachelor Nation weigh in. I don't

watch the show. So like, again, I'm, but I think like one of the things when I read sort of think pieces about it, like one of the reasons I think it's sort of struggling versus whenever it started 300 years ago is that it is based off of, and I have watched a couple of seasons historically, but like, it's based off like the most gender essentialist thing you could possibly have, right? It's like a guy, a bunch of women trying to get that guy to ask him to marry him. And then of course they do The Bachelorette. And it's like it's very gender essentialist. It's very straight. It's very white. You know, sort of all these things that I think have sort of, it's struggled to age elected to move along with the times. And so, you know, Clayton, sure enough, right, he played professional football, right?

Football. Yeah. So, I mean, he is this man. You know, he's like this masculine. All-American boy from Missouri. Yes. Yes. Very much someone who would be cast as the Bachelor.

Exactly. And so I think to like see him be vulnerable about this situation. And it does. I want people listening to this to understand how much sort of courage it does take to talk about getting fooled in this way. And it is not easy. It's not an easy thing to grapple with. And yeah, like I admire his courage and sort of the way he talked about it. I was like, this is a nice sort of, I think this is a nice example of masculinity. Yeah. And I would also say that about Mike Maruccini, too, because Clayton has a lot of experience being on TV. And, you know, he was coached and produced on The Bachelor to

have emotions on TV and cry and while he was extremely vulnerable with me and more than I could have ever asked for, it was also getting those emotions out of Mike, who's just a normal guy. And having him also tell me these things that he probably didn't want to talk about on a public platform and really talk about the hardship of being stuck in a relationship that you felt like you couldn't get out of. And for lack of better term, it's almost embarrassing for some people. I was in a relationship like that. And I remember thinking back to when I was in college and dating this person, now I'm like, what were you thinking?

But when you're in the moment, it's hard to find a way out or see a way out. And then once that switch flips and you're out of it, you're like, okay, I understand now, but also what was I doing? And so to hear Mike talk about those things and be vulnerable with me too, I got very lucky that there were two people that were willing to open up with the way that they did. And how much did you see kind of the various. men, you know, not only like Mike and Clayton, but Greg. And like, how much did you see them sort of bonding over this experience, drawing courage from one another? Because I think that that is,

that for me, in the series of making this show, continues to be something that is a really profound experience. It is not an everyday experience to come across someone like this and be entangled with them for years. And when you meet someone else who's had that parallel experience, it's really powerful. And you hear Clayton, talk in the podcast about the first time that he felt like he had hope was when he found out about Greg Gillespie. And when he like realized that it wasn't just him, he was like, I finally have hope that there is a way out of this. And the three guys that, you know, we really focus on in this show, Greg, Mike and Clayton, they are all very vastly different personalities.

And so like the brotherhood of them coming together is like three people that you normally wouldn't imagine coming together for a common cause. And like, I think they would be friends, but like it's not like they would typically meet up and and be friends for, you know, if they were just out in the real world. But because of this particular situation, they have this, like you said, brotherhood where they can lean on each other and they can talk to each other and they can vent to each other. And I think that's been really important for all of them. I can't speak for them, obviously, but I do think that having that support and having the support of not only them, but like the entire online community, the women in their lives too, like that.

I mean, their support system is vast. Yeah. I think there were some moments listening to the show that felt bittersweet for me because I. Tell me more. Yeah, because I think, you know, and I'm so glad the show was successful. And I'm glad that Clayton Eckhart got the support that he deserved and the other men got the support that they deserved. And I just want to say like off the top, it does not need to be like. like trauma Olympics and which is worse and all that stuff. Like all of us is so legitimate. I think

what was bittersweet for me was a couple of things. Seeing this outpouring of support, and obviously this is a lot because it was huge pop culture story, right? And so it's just reaching a number of people that it's hard for these other stories to reach. And I think the reactions to and the sympathy for those men, which, again, is well-deserved, is not what I see survivors of abuse getting. And they are both survivors of abuse, but survivors of child abuse getting. And we started off with, you know, we were covering bunchausen by proxy cases. Now I describe the show as at the intersection between medicine and child abuse. So we talk about other.

But they all involve deception. And they all involve abuse. And I think what has been, you know, which gave me something to chew on and I won't name any names here, but looking at the reaction to this story versus the reaction to something like the Kowalski story and the reactions to Biotto Kowalski. And a huge part of that was how it was presented in this very deceptively made Netflix film. But I also think I always see when we are talking about perpetrators of abuse that there is usually a significant. groundswell of support for that person. There's an entire community dedicated to debunking Gypsy Rose Blanchard's history of abuse. You see these behaviors. And I think it is because it touches on different things. Yeah. But it was a little bittersweet to sort of see people being able to identify

with Laura. Rightfully so, this is deception, this is abuse. And it's because the evidence is there, right? It's not because we know why Laura did the thing she's going to do or, you know, but like the evidence is there that she did it. And in the cases I talk about necessarily, for, you know, legal reasons, the evidence is there. And people don't respond to that evidence in the same way. And indeed, some of the same people who were supporting Clayton and were very condemning of Laura Owens in her behavior, rightfully so, were also supporters of Biottoqualski. and the narrative that she was falsely accused. Yeah, that was something where I was just like, ooh, we've got some cognitive dissonance going on here. And I wonder what you sort of make of that

break. And like, why were people convinced in the evidence in this case when evidence does not always convince people? I think in this specific case, it was Laura that was providing the evidence, right? So it was, it was the perpetrator that was providing you. the evidence and it wasn't sitting right with folks. So if you remember, like, the story came out in the sun and it came out in the sun because Laura took it to the sun. She's the one that made the story public. Like, Clayton didn't want it to go public. He didn't want this out there. And when she made it public, then, you know, it was anonymous. She didn't have her name in it, but there were so many details in that article that went through. It was like Scottsdale,

podcaster, XYZ, and she was an easy person to find. based on the details that she did give. And as soon as that article came out, everyone had their pitchforks out for Clayton. When you go back and read the Reddit threads from that time, it's like, of course this guy did it. Why didn't he use a condom and XYZ and all these other things? Well, he didn't use a condom because they didn't have sex. But anyway, like the comments are crazy about like going after him. And then within about a week after Laura posted an anonymous she said, I am the anonymous woman. She posted a medium blog.

She posted a thread in the Bachelor subreddit. And then she starts posting a dropbox folder of evidence. And people who are looking at the evidence themselves with their own eyes are like, I've been pregnant before. And this doesn't make sense. That's kind of how the online crowd kind of started up because they were all looking online being like, this doesn't make sense. And then they started talking about it.

And one of the things I think that people support the story. and believe the evidence so much and support it is because something like Laura has said has happened to her, has happened to them. So there's a lot of people who support this story that have experienced pregnancy loss or have experienced the difficult decision of having an abortion or have been a domestic violence survivor. And, you know, Laura says that all of these things happen to her, but the way that she reacts to them is not how these people would have reacted. And so stuff doesn't make sense when she's presenting her own evidence. That's kind of how people kind of, to me, started getting involved in this because they were like,

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some of the same people. Because, you know, like, if you look at the Kualski case, like, yes, the media coverage was so hugely in their favor. I don't fault people who are sort of casually interacting with this case, because then it happened around the same time. So I think that's also interesting, right? Both stories sort of broken 223. I think part of what is happening, that evidence was also available, right? There was a lot of evidence available. It was a highly publicized trial. The court docket. It was in Florida. Everything was available. And there were other sort of Reddit online sleuths, but by and large, sort of the media ignored the evidence. And I suspect part of what is happening is that even though Laura's behavior is very shocking in its extremes, we have a cultural script. It's a very toxic one. We have a cultural script

that people can plug into about a woman who does these things, about a woman who weaponizes allegations of sexual assault, about a woman who fakes a pregnancy to try to trap a man. We have a cultural script that people can latch onto. And I think some people in this case who are following this story had righteous pitchforks. And I think some people had maybe pitchforks that I would not agree with the reason they picked up that benchmark just to say. And we've got to unpack that further. But I think part of what we struggle with trying to get people to accept the abuse stories that we cover on the show is that people do not have a cultural script about mothers who engage in this behavior. And we have a thing

where we're like, oh, yes, like women can be deceptive until they become mothers and then they are angels. And they would never do anything like that. You know, so I think it's like, I suspect that's part of it. That could be. This was an interesting story for me because I'm not a mother. And as I'm covering this, I think you hear in the episode, I think it's like episode 10 or 11. I don't even remember at this point. But I find out that my sister's pregnant as we're going on through this whole thing. So like watching my sister's pregnancy and comparing it to the stuff that I'm investigating at the same time is also. just like a really interesting part of this whole thing for me because I've never been pregnant. So yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I wish that I had more experience to say like, you know, I'm a mother and I know the mom groups and I know all of that, but, but I don't. And in this particular case, the narrative of the crazy woman, I know we talk about that in episode 12 because you're right. There is this narrative. Oh, I even say, I think in that episode,

like, I've been called crazy. You know, you text too many times. You, it's what degree, though? Like, are you crazy because you text too many times? Are you crazy because you're telling the truth? And then nobody believes you. Where's the line in that? Yeah. Well, and I think you hit on something, which is that Laura is essentially exploiting very common tragedies that happen to women. Having a man not take responsibility for a pregnancy, domestic violence, unbelievably common, tragically common, being called a liar, being called crazy, which probably. explains, you know, that initial wave of support for her people plug themselves into the story. They recognize it just as you said. Whereas I think what perpetrators of, you know, the abuse that we

talk about on the show often exploit is this sort of like, well, my child has this very rare condition and you just don't understand what it's like to deal with that situation. And people want to sympathize. They so badly want to sympathize with a parent of a sick child. Like I understand all the emotional reasons that people reject this abuse. I really do. I've been through. it myself. But I think you're right that part of it is just like, people are like, yeah, that's not how pregnancy works. And, and like, or like, okay, maybe one weird thing could happen, but not like 17 times. It's the pattern. It's the pattern and the excessiveness of it. But I wanted to dig a little deeper into that. I'm going to make some assumptions that you are

a feminist and like I hear, which I think it feels like a safe assumption. And that I think we, and it's something I struggle with on the show, right, as well, right, that I don't want to feed into a stereotype about deceptive women and women being sort of like generally, constitutionally manipulative or deceptive. And indeed, some people that have taken issue with my work, I don't think that this is a good faith criticism for the most part. But some people that have, I've been like, that's a misogynist Like, it's misogynist just to accuse women of doing this. And I'm like, well, I'm not, you know, it's like, I'm just presenting evidence. Like, this is the evidence. This is what the evidence tells us. And so I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about how you grappled with that sort of specter of like, because I think one of the great tragedies of the Laura Owen story is that she is feeding into something that does hurt a lot of other women and is part of the reason that people, are not, you know, women are not believed about abuse when they come forward, who are not believed, who are accused of being crazy when it's like, okay, well, like, yes, I sent too many text messages.

It's almost like when you have one of the, you know, you meet a guy and they're like, all my exes were crazy. And I was like, all your exes have something in common. So I wonder, like, how did you sort of grapple with that on the show? Did you ever have that fear of like, what if we're setting me too back or what have you? Of course. I mean, thinking about male victims and trying to tell the story when your woman is something that I certainly thought about when I took this on. And I think what's interesting is that I worked for a nonpartisan news network, if you will, before I took this job. And that opened my eyes to a lot of things. I, in 2024, reported live from the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National

Convention. So, I mean, that's the nonpartisan that I'm talking about. Like, I was doing both sides, seeing, hearing, looking at everything. And it was a really good exercise in being able to listen to both sides and look at evidence presented by both sides. And there were a lot of times where I would put things on the air, like I was a booking producer. So there was a lot of times I'd have to schedule a guest and have to do a pre-interview with them. And they would sit and talk to me. And it was, you know, stuff that I didn't agree with. But I had to listen and I had to learn. And from doing that, that's the approach that I took when I came into this story. Obviously, when I took the story, there was already things that were adjudicated.

So we knew that there was actual evidence in the story. But I was like, I want to hear everything for myself. I want to learn everything for myself. And when I came into it, I'm like, I'm going to let the evidence speak for itself. And I'm going to have these conversations with people so that I can feel confident in knowing that I did the work to make sure that I'm getting this right. And let me tell you, the evidence was glaring very quickly. And it's funny, I think back to some of the early conversations that I had with folks that appeared on the podcast.

And one of the comments that I got was Clayton Eckerd had me standing up for a man. And like, I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to stick up for a man in this story. But what Laura has done, exactly like you said, exploiting painful things that women go through is not right. And it was adjudicated that she was never pregnant with Clayton Eckerd's twins. the pain and the hurt that it has caused so many different people. And that's another thing of this story. And with a lot of the stories that you talk about, that I talk about, it's not just the victim, right? It's the victim's family. It's their friends. It's so many people that this

affects, people that you wouldn't even expect. Talking about sort of like grappling with this specter and sort of this fear that people could use this story to be like, oh, see, women do lie or whatever, which is ridiculous because, of course, women are human. My feminism is women are human and they engage in the full spectrum of human behaviors, including the awful abusive evil ones. And if you think that women are not capable of those things, then you're not really treating women like human beings. And I think, you know, what's really instructive about this story is that, and I appreciate what you said about having this experience in your previous job of really talking to people across the political spectrum who, you know, you disagree with on other things. And

I've had a lot of that experience on the show. And it's been, I think, such a gift because I'm frequently in rural parts of the country and just talking to people that like, yeah, we don't, I'm sure if we sat there and like discussed our views on abortion care and stuff like that, we probably not aligned. But like, you just really find the humanity. And I think we're at a moment where we really need to like find that humanity in one another again and not sort of just like take aside. And then also, you know, in discussing and having these sort of more overt conversations, overtly political conversations about like child welfare, boy, you can't choose a side because you're like, well, there are some things that are sort of more aligned with this side that I agree with and some things that I really

don't agree with. And like there are things that like sort of present themselves as being aligned with my values that aren't actually in practice. And so I think, is just, it's so nuanced that it's really like stretched me and the team to sort of really think about what assumptions we're making. And I think that that's just like a healthy and intellectually exciting thing to engage in. But I think there's something really interesting about the Laura Owen story and how it's instructive about when people lie about things and how to determine whether something is a false allegation. Because we see a lot, again, of similar behaviors in these cases we talk to you that are not related to the child abuse specifically, but lots of

claims of really suspicious to downright provable or false claims of assaults, getting robbed, getting their house set on fire, you know, these just sort of like wild stories. And again, it always makes us a little bit uncomfortable when we come across one of those in the story. And we don't always mention them, but in almost every story I've talked about, there's been at least one story of like sexual assault that just like was definitely not checkoutable and was not verifiable and sounded like and in some cases were like oh that person was not at that location at that time and it's really challenging because of course women have a history of not being believed when they have credible allegations of assault i remember asking mike webber who has worked in

all of these various arenas as a detective and sort of like in what circumstances do you see false allegations of sexual assault. They're very rare. It's like 2% or something, but they happen. But like, how do you tell, like, how do you not let that 2% sort of cast a pal on the other 98% that are, that are, because most people would never falsely accuse anyone of sexual assault. There's nothing to be gained from it for most people. And he is always saying, well, you have to look at the evidence and you would, you would look at someone if they had a pattern of deception. So I think what, like, what Laura is illustrative of is that it seems less likely, not impossible. Less likely that someone who is otherwise not deceptive that is not engaging in any other kind of fraud or behavior that's just completely dishonest is going to suddenly falsely accuse someone of assault or bring false charges of domestic violence or fake a pregnancy. people who are capable of doing those things for the most part, you're going to see other evidence that they are that kind of person. And that may not be helpful in like a criminal justice context.

You have to look at the individual facts of an individual case always. But I think just in helping people understand these stories. And when you see a story of someone making an allegation, especially against like a public figure, if people are saying, oh, that woman's a liar. Okay, well, is that woman known to be a liar in any other context, or is it just specifically opportunistically you're saying she's a liar here? Exactly. And in this story, it was the pattern, right? So when Clayton went to trial in June of 2024, and it was adjudicated that he was not the father of the alleged twins, the reason that the judge at that time referred it to the Maricopa County Attorney's Office was because there was a pattern of behavior. That that, that

That judge knew about Greg Gillespie. That judge knew about Mike Maruccini. Mike Maruccini dates all the way back to 2016. So there was 10 years of documented behavior that was similar. And that is why Laura is now facing criminal charges in the state of Arizona because of the pattern of deception and behavior. And I think it is important to recognize that someone like this is dangerous. It's not who we think of as being dangerous, right? She's this petite, white, well-to-do woman.

you know, again, like not really anybody's idea of a criminal. Maybe we do have these scripts about deceptiveness, but like in women. But I wonder, what do you think justice looks like in this case? Because like a moment where I felt some real sympathy for Clayton, you know, he's talking about, well, I think she needs jail time. Because I think that's the only thing that's going to sort of snap her out of it. And I was like, ooh. that seems like an expectation that might not be a reality and also the idea that she's going to snap out of it because of that probably isn't also reality. But I understand why he feels that way.

And so I wonder like, what do you think justice looks like for someone like Laura? That's a really tough question, Andrew. I've been following this case for so long and I don't want to make this sound selfish, but like the case has also affected me personally at this point, right? I'll be on vacation and there's court hearings that I have to pay attention to and I'm just like, I just want to break from this, you know? And that's like minuscule compared to what other people have dealt with this in the story. So I don't want to be like, oh my gosh, wo is me. But I mean, at some point, she has to be held accountable for her actions.

At some point, this has to stop. And I think the frustrating thing for everyone is that Clayton has said it. And he said it in one of the most recent episodes is like she will always find a loophole. No matter what it is, it's loophole after loophole after loophole. And we kind of see her parents doing a similar thing in their bankruptcy case right now. That's loophole after loophole after loophole as well. And I don't know what justice looks like. I don't even know what I would consider like the appropriate punishment.

And I think I would, I want her to get help, but is the help going to work? That's like the struggle. It's like what is going to snap someone like her out of it? Is it possible? I can tell you from my experience on the show, I don't think it's likely. There are two things. When we talk about, like, treatment that people could, like, improve these patterns of behavior, first of all, they have to want to stop.

Right. And it doesn't seem like there's much evidence that Laura wants to stop. And I think part of what is so hard for people to understand these behaviors is that for almost everyone, right, most people, who are encountering these stories, the idea of like an endless court battle, hell, right? And she's clearly putting other people through hell by making them, forcing them to engage in an endless court battle that she is starting. But I think we can assume that that is what she wants because all of her actions have perpetuated that continuing. And then again, it's like she finds another person. It's clearly something, we don't know why she's doing it, but clearly there's no sort of like internal impetus to stop on her own.

Clearly, she's not going to stop on her own. She's shown no evidence of wanting to just like drop it, leave it. That's evidenced by the fact that she's still filing an appeal in the Mike Maritini domestic violence restraining order case in California. So, I mean, as recent as like the past couple of months. So, yeah. Yeah. So you have someone that's engaged in this relentless behavior. And I think the idea, it's like no therapy, treatment, help is going to work if you do not have a willing participant.

And then the other thing that we always talk about with deception is that like step one is full acknowledgement of all of the behaviors. The idea that she is suddenly going to sit down and be like, yes. The proof there that that's not going to happen is that the trial was in June of 2024. and it was again adjudicated that Clayton was not the father of the alleged twins. And then you see the body cam search warrant footage from January of 2025. And you hear the infamous line from the podcast. All I did was get pregnant by the effing bachelor. And it's like actually six months ago in court, it was said that that's not the case.

So it does not matter what evidence is presented. She's stinking to her story. Yes. And it seems like her parents. parents are sticking to their story, too, from the things that I heard from a journalist that spoke with them. They support their daughter. And that is what it is. They believe her and support her. Everyone is kind of sticking to the story. Yeah. And you know, you were talking about and I wanted to ask you about actually your personal experience of reporting on this because it is intimidating

and honestly scary to report on someone who is acting very far outside. the bounds of normal human behavior and like is doing stuff that's just like they have a different playbook than than you have like their motivations whatever they are are very different than your motivations and there have been instances where like oh sort of I've considered taking legal action against someone I'm like I'm not doing that to myself like I'm not going to do that nobody wants to go to court except some people really do want to go to court and so I wonder like for you How has that, like, knowing you're sort of stepping into this entanglement and could become the focus of this behavior? Like, what has that been like for you?

When you're a journalist and you know this, when you sign up to do a story like this, you know the risks that you have going into it. And I just had to keep reminding myself, like, we're presenting evidence that is factual. we're doing this correctly. We have a legal team that reviews everything that make sure that we're putting things out there that are accurate, that are factual, that are. And that's just like what I had to root any fear or anxiety or anything like that in. It was the fact that like I signed up for this and I'm going to do it and I'm going to see it through. And I believe that the people that are in this story, that their stories deserve to be told. and that's that's kind of how I went into it.

And I've said from the very beginning, I would love to speak with Laura. I would love to have a conversation with her. I would love to ask her questions and I would love to be able to have a back and forth with her. I've kept a running list of questions the entire time I've been reporting on this of things that I want to ask her. I mean, it's not that the door is closed and not that I wouldn't be open to having a conversation with her because at the end of the day, Laura and I are around the same age.

And I think that there's a world in which she grew up in a way that a lot of people wish they could have. She had a lot of privilege. Her parents had a lot of money. And she went to great schools. She got to do all of the hobbies that she wanted to. She was basically set up for success. Yeah, equestrian. I mean, you know, like, that's not a...

That's not a cheap hobby from what I've been told. And, you know, I talk about this. Like, I always wanted to be on the radio. That was my dream, like, as I was a child, like, growing up, that's what I went to college for. And, you know, to have a dad that was... on the radio in San Francisco and that could have actually like helped you further your career if that's what you wanted to do. Like she was set up for success and there's empathy for me to her that like this is where she ended up. Again, I would love to have the conversation with her.

So this entire time, well, you know, you're worried because Laura may be litigious and whatever. Again, it's rooted in. I know what I got into. And I know that if she actually wanted to tell her side of the story, I would give her a safe place to do that. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I may not agree with what she has to say, much like I went to the RNC and the DNC and had to listen to a lot of things that I didn't necessarily agree with. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't give someone a safe and supportive place to tell their side of the story, even if I didn't agree with it. Yeah, that resonates so much with me because I ground myself in the same things with the show. And, you know, we have our spreadsheets with every source document and every page number and every detail.

And I have my incredible fact checker, Aaron Ajayi, who, as we always say, keeps us clean, cute, not a court. And like, I like that. I might have to steal that. And I might get, like, team specific merch made with that on it. But, like, the knowing, like, that internal knowing that you are going to be open to evidence that contradicts the existing narrative, right? Like if Laura somehow came forward with something that explained everything, you'd hear it, right? I would. Absolutely, I would. I talk about in episode 12 how she did email me.

It was after the Mike Maruccini episode, and she kind of gave her version of events in about 17 pages of PDFs. And I read. And can you kind of set that up for us again? And it's like sort of a spoiler, but also not really because you just have to listen to the whole show, but to tell us, because that was the one direct communication you had from her. Is that right? I had a few, there were a few emails, but that was probably the most verbose email. It was after episode eight, where it was Mike Maruccini's story. She emailed a few days after that episode came out. And I talk about in episode 12, how it was 17 pages of PDF labeled each part of the Mike

Maruccini story, Iceland, Dubai, relationships, other notes, all of these things. And she went through and there were time stamps. And this was a man that she'd had a much lengthier relationship than the sort of thing she had with Clayton Eckhart. Right. She dated him from 2016 to 2017. And there was all of these notes and her side of the story. And I had to sit down and have conversations with Mike and like, she said this.

Like, what's your response? And like, I did have those hard conversations. And, you know, you do have to have those conversations. I'm like, okay, well, this contradicts what we thought we knew. So, like, can you explain it? And we had a lot of hard conversations throughout the. entire process of, you know, you'd find something or you'd read something in a court document and then, you know, you'd have to go check it somewhere else and check it somewhere else again. And it's a

lengthy process. And I do think it's important to make sure, though, like you said, to be open to hearing both sides. And that is how I've been the entire time. I was, I'm open to hearing her side of the story. I'm open to hearing if she ever wanted to talk about why this has happened or how she got to where she is today. And what has the reason been that she's given you that, she does not want to speak now because she had plenty to say, right? Like she, it's not as though she just has this privacy concern, you know, she's been online, she's did her TEDx talk. It's not just because she has nothing to say publicly. There really was never a specific reason, honestly. And I think back to the emails that I've received from her and it was, we didn't give her enough

time to respond. Our company spoke with her in May of 2025 to ask her about participants. And this was an email that was the following February. So at that point, it had been months since the initial ask. But there was never really a specific reason. When you were recounting those communications with her, it was very reminiscent of some of the conversations I've had with folks who I, yes, always give an opportunity to explain. And Lisa McDaniel, who's our perpetrator from season six, you know, in that one I, ended up going to knock on her door in person. And we were giving her the opportunity to speak

and kind of walked through some of what we'd, again, the evidence. And she really used a lot of the same stuff, right? Well, you're springing this on me. And I was like, okay, but, and she had actually known because her daughter told her that we were doing the show. So it's like she'd known it was coming at some point, maybe not that specific morning, but, you know, and said, like, well, it doesn't matter because you'd never believe me. And I thought that was so interesting and sort of talking about like Laura's parents and they're saying they believe their daughter. And you're like, well, belief in the absence of evidence is one thing. Belief that contradicts the evidence is another thing. You know, and if all you have is that he said, she said, sure, believe your

daughter till the cows come home. Your parents. Everyone understands that. The mom in particular, really fascinating characters. And like what was your sort of experience with with them and reporting on their piece of this? The most interesting reporting that I got was when I talked to Martha Ross, who was a journalist. She's a journalist in San Francisco. And she actually had conversations with them. She interviewed them. And then at the end of the podcast, sent them a lot of questions and they responded to her. And that's where we find out that they believe their daughter. They're supporting her. And I think it's also stuff that has happened since the last episode of the podcast, you know, they filed for bankruptcy. It was dismissed. They refiled for bankruptcy.

And in one of the court filings, they said that it was specifically to protect their home from being foreclosed on because they filed on May 22nd and the foreclosure were supposed to be on May 26th. And in that filing, they literally say, we're doing this to keep our home. And there have been a lot of court hearings from the parents since then, bankruptcy court hearings. And there's a lot of questions and a lot of things that relate to Laura in those bankruptcy hearings. So for example, the last one, it was a meeting of creditors. And they're asking her parents, like, who is paying for Laura's criminal attorney? Who's paying for that?

And her mom says, I don't know. and the U.S. trustee says you're claiming her as a dependent, basically, and she lives with you, and you support her. Like, you have already said that you pay for all of her living expenses, but you don't know about who was paying for her criminal attorney. And she said, no, we don't talk about that. And I just thought that was a really interesting thing. And that's something that you'll probably hear in an upcoming episode because that bankruptcy

hearing happened after the last episode. So I'm working on another one that'll come out sometime soon. So you'll hear the whole gamut of things that happened in that bankruptcy hearing. But it's been really interesting because a lot of people want to know more about the parents. And it's really hard to find information. And they're also not willing to talk, even though Laura said that her mom reached out to me. And I don't have any evidence of that of her mom reaching out to me. So again, I would love to speak with them.

I would love to speak with Laura. I would love to speak with her parents. I'd love to speak with her sister. that's definitely on my list as well. But I think it's interesting. And there's a bonus episode where you hear body cam footage of her mom talking to police officers that is illuminating. And I'll leave it there. So if you want to listen to that, you might learn a few things.

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than something that is people making some kind of like rational evaluation of what the evidence shows. And I remember that the first time I read about that cult comparison in the literature, like a thousand lights went on in my brain. Because I have had that experience as a family member of, believing at some point that broke down with my sister. But like, I believed her story about losing a pregnancy. It was not as wild as Laura's story. It was much more plausible. It was her fiance at the time and whatever else. But like when it came out that had been a lie, she gave us this explanation where she was like, well, my fiance had left me and I was so upset and

I was really straught and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, yeah, you're right. It was his fault. And I try and look back, you know, much like you're looking back at your relationship with someone really manipulative. It's like you look back and you're like, what? Like how did I justify that to myself? But I think until you've been there and I have some if limited empathy for Laura's parents, but I do have some empathy for them. When it is someone you love and when they are using all of those tactics that people who do these things use and that we have seen Laura use, deception, victimhood, emotional breakdown. You know, they suddenly get the sick or indisposed every time someone tries to help hold them accountable. It is very hard to see clearly when you are in that

situation. I understand it to a point. I think they are past that point. This person's causing a lot of harm. They're clearly financially supporting her causing some of this harm, whether or not they are paying for her attorney, like they are enabling it, like this strong case. We don't know. case, right? We don't know. But I think why people get bought into this. And it's because it's like, we all are far less logical than we think we are. Emotions are always kind of running the show for all of us in ways that I think sometimes we don't like to admit, right? You just hit the nail on the head. Like when I think about that manipulative relationship that I was in in college, I'm like, it was all run by emotion. There was no logic in this brain whatsoever. That was it. And

I think looking back and after years of therapy, that's kind of what you, the conclusion that you come to is like, okay, so maybe at that time I was not thinking logically. And that's hopefully the best way I can explain this and I've learned from it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is a very specific and overwhelming experience. And that is why I think it is sort of like being caught in a cult of one. And I think especially for parents, you know, when I look at like family members of some of the people we've covered on the show that just does not matter what evidence. you present that person with of the harm that's been caused. It's much more serious because we're talking about child abuse. But like, it does not matter what you present them with. They will cling to

that belief. And it is because of the high cost, I think, of admitting that they were wrong, especially when people have been bought in for a long time. It's like, okay, if the person sort of put you through one, they were like, oh, this one guy got me pregnant, abandoned you. And then, of course, like, of course you're going to be sympathetic. Even if that person's lying their face off, you're going to be sympathetic. You're the parents. If you find out they were not being truthful, you're going to be forgiving. It's like all of those things are really understandable. But it's like, okay, guys, like we're on several people, all these court battles. And it's like, if they were to have a revelation now, then they would have to personally contend with how they have contributed

to this situation and contributed to this harm over a course of a very long time. And so I think it's like at some point it gets less and less likely that a person is going to come around. I think you hit the nail on the head there. I do think like thinking about how long this has been going on and how do you how do you turn back now? And I think at some point people just go over the cliff. It's done. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what happens. Compared to when these events happened in my own life, which was quite a while ago now, 15 years ago was when these events first started when this whole situation first started to unravel in my own family. I think people now in the Trump II era of more or less constant manipulation, very, very provable lies, people believing things in the absence of evidence or in the opposite direction.

You know, we talk a lot about medical misinformation on the show, the opposite direction of very definitive evidence. I actually think people now have a much better framework for understanding why people get bought into people who are manipulative and deceptive. And I wonder if you think that's part of, like, why people have embraced this story? Because I think there's another version of this, right? And probably that has happened to some degree where people could just be like, this idiot, how could he believe that a woman who he did not have intercourse with became pregnant? and I'm like, you don't know what it's like to deal with someone like this. And I think maybe people understand now that people can just get very bought in and that dealing with a manipulative person who has this like onslaught, like we are all dealing with a very manipulative person right at the top

who just is an onslaught of lies and misinformation, not saying anything particularly like revelatory here. Do you think that people have a better understanding of this than they might have at other times? I think so. as you're talking about this, I remember one of the first questions that I asked Clayton. I'm like, how on earth did you believe that she was pregnant if you did not have sexual intercourse? And it's also like the internet at our fingertips and chat GPT at our fingertips now. He's like, I'm confident we did not have sexual intercourse. I'm confident. But what if she did a spit maneuver type of situation or what if she did? did XYZ or ran to the bathroom and did this or there were so many different like 0.01% chance

possibilities. And then you go to the internet and you type it in. And it's like, yep, there is like a 0.01% chance. And that's like kind of what in his brain like made him think that. Because I have seen the comments of people being like, what an idiot. How did he believe that? And I had that conversation with him because I too, I'm like, how? How did you believe that? And also with pregnancy, I think that we had an OBGYN on one of our bonus episodes. And I grew up going to a private Catholic school where they basically teach you, if you look at a man, you're going to get pregnant, right? My views are a little bit different from when I was in school.

But you grow up thinking those things. But in reality, like getting pregnant is actually not as easy as it seems. No, it's not. I think it is so funny, like, because I was not really. Catholic, but I think, you know, we're like raised in sort of the same, like, just general idea of, like, oh, you just, you spend your whole young life avoiding getting pregnant. And then, you know, I had my kids at 36 and 40. Like, it takes effort. Like, when you, when you are actually trying to get pregnant, you know, unfortunately, like, I didn't go through any, like, fertility struggles or

anything, but it's like, oh, yeah, it's like, it has to be, like, a very certain time. And you have to, Like, position, what you're wearing, what the weather's like. You wonder when you're going through that experience. Like, how does anyone accidentally get pregnant? But it's like truly before I had that personal experience, you just, and again, it might be an irrational belief. But it's like you really do believe, well, we didn't, but it didn't. And we used protection, but it did.

You really convince yourself. It's like the number of times I had convinced myself in my. young life that I was like, oh my God, you know, just like, yeah, not even if my period was it, but just like, you had a day where you're just like, oh, my God, you convince yourself you're pregnant, you know. Totally. And yeah, so it's like, I actually do think that we are sort of set up to believe that like, well, it could be the off chance. But to answer your question, yes, I do think that we do have a better framework of seeing this in in real time and in real life, but also the thing that I think is scary now is like the internet and chat GPT and all.

of those things that can like that can help convince you otherwise right the tools yeah and that's what that's what's scary to me and like not that clayton googling medical we all do it like i'll go to the doctor and be like well i looked up my symptoms and it could be this this or this so like let's check on these things like we all do that and i don't fault him for for doing that but i think that having that access to information is also scary well and it is because especially when you're talking about AI models, which I get less and less convinced I want anything to do with at all. Because, you know, we had this experience where in our seventh season, we end up talking to this person, John Stewart, who claims he was falsely charged with abuse because of a doctor's misdiagnosis.

And I had briefly, briefly mentioned his story when I was covering the Kowalski case because it was also featured and take care of Maya. He got in touch with us and was like, you've got it all wrong and I have the proof. And I was like, great, come on down. As you said, like, I'm always going to be open. And also, like, I really don't want to get things wrong. It's really high stakes to report on someone's real life. It has real consequences. And if you are a ethical journalist, you do not want to get that wrong. And so if someone tells you, hey, you are wrong and I have proof, like, I'm going to listen to that every time. That's the quickest thing I'm ever going to respond to. I know how to get you to reply to my emails now. No, I'm kidding. Yeah. Just be like, area,

you're wrong. I approve. Call me. But part of what he sent us was a bunch of screenshots from chat GPT, who he had uploaded some documentation to, and chat GPT had seemingly, it seems to me part of the reason because I just kept thinking like, why did this person reach out to me? Because spoiler alert, for anyone who hasn't listened to season seven, his story did not check out. He did not have proof that he'd been false. accused and actually everything that he shared with us presented even a more damning picture than what we knew before. And so you just think like this is such a self-owned, like why would you reach out to the single most skeptical journalist about the idea that child abuse pediatricians

are marauding figures falsely accusing people? And now I don't know if he just didn't listen to the show. That could be part of it. But, you know, I think part of what happened is chat, GPT, convinced him that he had a case and what chat GP2 was doing was confirming was giving him the answer that he wanted to hear by sort of picking up these nothing burger things that were also like based off a very incomplete evidence. It's like that really was such an illuminating experience about what can come from that in terms of someone having a narrative that does not make sense and having someone sort of or an entity, an AI, convince them that they're near, yes, you are right, Laura, you can get pregnant. It's sort of like, and here's the supporting evidence for how someone could

become pregnant. And that that in the hands of someone who is very manipulative and deceptive is stunning, right? And you see so many of these things, right? It's that tiny percentage of chance. It is very hard to prove a negative. It is very hard to prove that it is impossible that someone could become pregnant from that encounter. Yeah. And I think, too, to your point, like, not only is there chat GPT admitted that was involved in, you know, she mentioned using chat GPT in the deposition, but now in the day of age where we also know that she admitted to falsifying medical records, that's scary, too,

when you think about AI and what it can do as it progresses. Very scary. Can you put in an ultrasound and be like, change the header? change the gestation date, change the due date. And then it pops out this new image that you can't reverse image search now because it's a new created one. I've gone down this, this like rabbit hole in my head of all the different ways that chat GPT can be scary in a situation like this. And it's, it's a scary place. So you mentioned that you have a running list of questions that you'd like to ask Laura Owens if you ever get the chance. What are some of those questions? What would you most

like to know from her perspective. One of the first things that I would like to know is I would love for her to give me her version of events that happened the night that she was with Clayton. It's changed a couple of times. In one instance, it was, you know, I've seen stuff where she says that they didn't have sex and then it is that they had sex and then it is that Clayton raped her. So I would love to sit down and actually ask her, just walk me through that night. Like what was going through your mind?

Why did you decide to go over there? Why Clayton? Why were you attracted to Clayton? Was it because you thought he was attractive? You thought he was cute? Was it because he was the bachelor? That's one of the main things I would love to know is like I want to know why Clayton and what happened in her version of events that night.

Do I think I would get the truth? I'm not 100% sure. But I would love to know that. I would also love to know why her sister hasn't talked to anyone. I would love to know. her version of events of things that happened with Mike Maruccini. I realize I'm saying like, yeah, just tell me your whole life story. The most common question I think would be like, why, Laura? Why are we here today? But I don't think that I'd get an answer that I was looking

for, so I don't know that I would waste time on that. Yeah. It's interesting because you probably don't know this, but the origin of our, the name of our show comes from an interview, a prison an interview with Hope Ybarra, who was one of the first cases we covered on the show and was the first perpetrator I ever spoke to because she had done prison time. So there was some like accountability admitting of what she'd done. And nonetheless, she lied her way through her interview. The quote that that comes from, Hope had done an interview while she was in prison for the abuse of her daughter. And the journalist said to her, Hope, you've lied about so many things. Why should people believe you now? And she said,

She said, they shouldn't. Nobody should believe me. And I thought that is like the one true thing. That's what it's ever said. And I thought it was so interesting that she said it. What I was interested, and I wonder if this is kind of like what you're getting at. Because of course, like she's not going to tell you the truth if you get her on the mic. I mean, I love that you said, you gave a nice hedge there.

You're like, I'm not 100% sure she was telling you the truth. I'm like, I think it's a very small person. Never say impossible. The story has also changed so many times. I'm like, which version are we going to get today? Right. So, yeah. And like the reason I always want to talk to perpetrators, again, is not because I am relying on them for facts, right?

But it's nonetheless interesting to see how they will explain things. Yeah. Absolutely. Like I said, we've heard many different versions of that. I would love to know which version I would get. And I would love to know which version in 2026 we're going to get. And I think that's what is interesting to me. And also, like, it's weird for me to even say this, but I do feel, I've always felt like

a little bit of empathy for this person. And it comes from the fact that I don't know that she has a support system around her that, like, I do, for example. You know, I have a really supportive husband. I have a really supportive job. I have a really supportive group of friends and family. And she seems like she may not necessarily have that. and that's where the empathy comes from for me.

And I almost would like to just ask her, like, how are you? How are you even doing? Because I can't imagine that the answer would be, I'm doing good. Yeah. I love that you said that because I don't think that empathy is misplaced. And I think when we start to dehumanize perpetrators of crimes, which it's very easy to do, I think what we are doing is putting that as. a distance from ourselves. And I don't think that that's entirely helpful to understanding why people

do these things or how to deal with them. And I think I have more empathy for people that do really horrific things than most people. And I don't expect everyone to like have that. But I think for my job, right, it's like I can understand why people are just like, put this person in jail, throw away the key. Yeah. I don't have any sympathy for them. And I understand that take and that's a really understandable response. But like, I think for the person reporting on it, it's like, I think the day I lose that empathy, I think I will need to hang it up. Because it's like, you're right. They're not happy people who are engaging in these behaviors and I, in these behaviors. And I think that is our best, like understanding their emotional truth, if not the sort of evidentiary truth,

I think does give us some insight. And I got that from my conversation with hope. Like she wasn't honest about a bunch of things. I didn't expect her to be honest. She's told all of us not to believe her, took her at her word. But I think, you know, she told me some things like I asked her, like, what would have helped you not go down this path? And she was like, she said, I wish I had told my mom. I think my mom could have helped me.

And I think that that, as far as I could tell, was like pretty honest. Yeah. At least there was some like resonance there. And that kind of thing, I think can be so insightful because I think an ideal world, it is really hard to know what to do with someone like Laura. And so we're talking about justice. But it's also just like, how do you even deal with someone like this? Because, you know, and they are going to like burn, you know, she still has her parents and that might be what's playing into her parents, right? Is her parents are recognizing that if she didn't have them,

she would have no one. And I think it's pretty hard to like abandon your child regardless of what that child has done. But this is a person who almost certainly you're talking about no support and like has burned every bridge. You can understand why someone like this wouldn't have a support system. And the outcomes for a lot of people we talk about on the show, they are really sad. They do end up alone. They burn every bridge. They torch every relationship that they have. And so it's like, I think trying to figure out why people do this and, hey, what could help them before they cause this much damage? Because trying to help them at this point, it's such a higher bar, right? Because then they have to take accountability for all the stuff they've done.

And that's much harder than just being like, oh, I did a smaller deceptive thing and let's deal with it now. I'm not saying like Laura hasn't done horrific things. She's done a lot of really awful things to people that I now care about. But I think like two things can be true at once, right? And in this field, like if you don't have some sort of empathy that comes out in your reporting, I think, having empathy for the victims and having like this little like tiny 0.1% empathy for Laura, I feel helpful. me tell the story a little bit better. One of the things where I think we can have some empathy and maintain some empathy for her, even as we are using, you know, stockpiling most of our empathy for the people that we're innocent and we're just put through this whole ringer. And I think one of the things that so, that sort of keeps the show from just being like such a bummer is that, like you said, like Mike Marantini, like has a wonderful wife and a family.

And it's horrific that he is still going through this. But like, Clayton, he, yeah, it's like it leaves scars, but they're okay. And like they do walk away from the situation. And someone like Laura never walks away. It's true. You're right. And that is sad. It is really sad. And that's, I think that's where the empathy comes from. When you really think about it and when you really think about what it must be like to live in her world every day. I can't imagine that. I can't. Yeah. Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us. This is such a delight to get to have you on. Thank you so much for having me and for all of the kind words about Love Trapped. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know a lot of listeners have listened to the show. If they haven't already, they should. Can you tell us where to find you and the show? And also, like, what's up next for the show? Yeah, so you can find us on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Just search Love Trapped.

You can find me. I'm on Instagram. I'm Stephanie. I am S-E-E-P-H-A-N-I. No E on the end of Stephanie. Very confusing. Last name, Young. And then also you can follow for updates

at Glass Podcasts on Instagram as well. What's up next is Laura has a settlement conference in Arizona on August 28th. That's where they're going to talk about the plea deal. And that's allegedly the date that she's either going to have to accept it or decide that she's going to go to trial. If it goes to trial, that will happen in October. and if she accepts the plea deal, obviously this will be over with a sentencing hearing that happens after that. We do have likely an episode coming before that.

And then I'll obviously, like I said, be in Arizona for that settlement conference and we'll give everybody an update as to what happens while I'm there. Wonderful. Well, I am on the edge of my seat. I'm following along. So, yeah, again, thanks for being on and we will stay tuned. Awesome. Thanks so much, Andrea. Nobody should believe me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

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