Nobody Should Believe Me - The Warrior Eli Hoax Part 2 with Taryn Wright

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

In part two of Andrea’s conversation with writer and former hoax hunter Taryn Wright, the discussion shifts from the Warrior Eli case to the broader impact of exposing deception online. Together, Andrea and Taryn explore the rise of attention as its own form of currency and the ethical challenges of telling these stories responsibly. * * * Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and we are back this week with the second half of my conversation with writer and hoax hunter Terran Harper Wright. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, please go listen to that first. Last week we talked about how Terran got into hoax hunting and delved into the Warrior Eli saga, which is the story that she broke. And today, we are getting into how this whole thing snowballed for her and having a broader discussion about how our online lives, both real and fake, have evolved since the 2010s.

I will have updates on season seven, as well as a launch date for you very soon. And in the meantime, if you need more, nobody should believe me in your life. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts or Patreon, or you can find a ton of bonus content, including our discussion about a big digital hoax story from last year, the Kendra Lakari saga. As always, thank you for listening. Now here's the rest of my conversation with Taryn Rennon. Fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home, and more.

Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help when you need it so your dollar goes a long way. Visit Progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show. Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters. And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not.

not support ICE. I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants. Immigrants make this country great. Yeah. And in one of your interviews that I was reading, you talked about how there was a young woman that you had been following and you felt that she might be at risk of self-harm if you exposed her. And so can you talk about sort of how you handled that situation? That was right near Christmas, and we were looking, it was definitely something, I can't remember the actual details of the hoax. I ended up obviously not writing about it. But, you know, we found her like real Facebook and we found a real blog that she was writing on. All of a sudden, the blog, as we were looking at it, and I was kind of getting ready to write about it, the blog turned really dark. And she was talking about self-harm and suicidal ideation. So I called the police in the city that she lived in and ended up having her committed for 72 hours or 48 hours or whatever it is. and then ended up never writing about it. But again, like, I certainly never thought on Mother's Day when I, like, ran into this whole thing that that would be all together, I had four people hospitalized for whole, for psychological holds. So that's rough.

I mean, like, it's a lot to carry. It's a lot to carry. And again, like, I really do measure my impact, you know, like, I don't want to do something that's net negative for sure. And it turned to, I mean, it was just, toward the end of it, the internet was definitely getting meaner. People were, I feel in a way, a little bit responsible because like all these Reddit groups and stuff popped up that were like, this person has a child with cancer, but they asked for too many toys. Like they asked for puzzles and. Oh, yeah. Can you talk about that?

Sure. I think like this is a really interesting piece because, especially, you know, for us, because. You know, these are just issues that we constantly struggle with. And, you know, we're always weighing that, you know, on balance, is this the right thing to do? And I think, you know, obviously in our case, we're talking about people with real children. Absolutely. And so that is obviously a very strong sort of moral imperative to expose it because that is, you know, especially because it can be very hard to get anyone to intervene in these situations. And so just at least having that person. name out there, you know, provides some measure of protection and kind of eyes on the child. And that's kind of our ethos on the show. But even with that, we're always concerned about what that exposure is going to do to, you know, the perpetrator, what that might, you know, what effect that might have on them and the people around them and how things might, yeah, just go, go sideways in sort of

ways that we didn't expect. And I think one of the other things that we really worry about, is just that this will put, you know, very unintentionally put a scrutiny on parents who legitimately have a sick child, who are just acting weird or sort of overshare online or, you know, that kind of thing. And so, Kia, can you tell us about like this instance that you had where it was not the kind of thing that you would expose, but something very different. Yeah, and of course, like, I think you're doing great work. And, like, I definitely think that, what, you're one of the only people I can talk to in the world that has, like, been through some of the same, like, mental stuff that I have as far as, like, figuring out, what am I

doing here? Like, is this helping or hurting? And, and I definitely, I think that I helped, you know, like, I really do think that overall net positive. Um, but anyway, we had, all of a sudden, most of my emails that I would get, um, at the beginning, I would get just, like, blogs to look at that were pretty obviously fake or, you know, like that we're a little, I mean, the majority of people out there can't write, you know, like, it's, if somebody, I mean, like, not to sound like a jerk, but like, I mean, and that's good, you know, like, the majority of people are, like, looking for support. They don't have to, like, write these beautiful flowery sentences about their kid, you know, like, they can just say, here's my kid, he's going through this. If you want to send him

Legos, like, here's the address or whatever. Like, that should be okay, you know, like, it shouldn't be the end of the world. But I would get emails from people saying, okay, I know that Jeremiah has cancer, but Jeremiah's mother has asked for toys three times this month, and I just think that that's too much, and I think you should write about it on the blog. And I was like, there is nothing in my personality that is enforcement of any kind, you know, like I don't want to be the internet police. I don't want to be harassing a family that has a child that's sick, you know, that are trying to make their child smile like a little bit.

you know so it became it was like a lot like that and just people so when i wouldn't write about it um it got to the point where people would like start these reddit groups that were just like jeremiah's mother is asking for this like oh she had a foreclosure 22 years ago and oh she was bankrupt seven years ago she's definitely and she floated to check like four years ago i mean it was crazy it was just like all this personal info that i had seen when i was writing about it but it wasn't notable for the case you know like why would anybody want to like share that stuff So it just people that like wanted to do what we were doing with my blog, but didn't know how to really do it in a way that was like not completely, would it be libelous? I don't want to mess up with a creative writing major.

Yes, or slanderous. Yeah. Whatever it is. I can never remember. Let me see. If you're writing it, if you're writing it, it's libel. Okay. But they were all libel.

I mean, it was crazy. I can't believe that nobody's been sued, you know, like for sharing the stuff that they did. So that kind of like put a huge bummer on the situation. I mean, like, it was a lot of that where it was just like, did I like create this monster here? Like this is this is not the best feeling. Yeah. I mean, I it's for sure something I can relate to. And, you know, we don't really tend to cover cases that kind of come in off the wire as it were. It's usually something that I have either some sort of personal or it's a big lawsuit or something that, you know, that we end up covering in depth on the show, but certainly people send me so many cases. And I think that that's kind of, I can't read them because I also have that personality where if it is intriguing, then I'll be like, oh, I'm going to just put everything I'm supposed to be doing over here and then just go down this rabbit hole for the next, you know, week. There's 14 hours of your life right down the tube.

Totally get that. Totally get that. And also just that like, um, You know, I think it's, it's dark, right? Like, it's dark stuff to look into. And it takes a toll when you're going into these internet spaces and looking at this behavior and thinking about why people would do it. And, you know, and thinking about like, you know, and then when people get in touch about their experiences they had with a person like that, you know, mom that talked about leaving her dying son's bedside. I mean, that's just. just like a huge weight to carry. And I think it's like, yeah, I just really relate with that feeling of like sort of opening the Pandora's box. And then you're like, wow, what did I do? Yeah, that's 100% what it was. It was just like, wow, I am 100% not. I mean, like eventually, and I would give everyone my phone number. I would give the hoaxers my phone number. I would give

the people affected my phone number. I was spending so much time on this that it was, I mean, and it was just like, okay, the only person. that this, again, like, and now I've been to therapy, so I'm doing much better with boundaries and stuff. But, like, at that point, I'd be like, the only person that this is really affecting, you know, like, I'm sure I'm, like, not sleeping and, like, I'm doing this all the time. And I'm, you know, like having nightmares and all this stuff. But it's just, I'm helping people. Like, I'm definitely helping, like, I'm friends with the hoaxers. Like, they know that I don't think that they're bad people. Like, they know that they just did a bad thing, you know, like.

And explain to me, explain to me that piece, being friends with the hoaxers. Because that's actually something that I find relatable, but I think a lot of people would have the opposite reaction where they're like, why would you want to be friend this person that did this? And like this person's, you know, just, yeah, you're talking about that kind of visceral reaction that we have to people and like understandably, right, that engage in this kind of behavior that is, you know, fraudulent and emotionally exploitative. And, you know, yeah, it has, it has real victims. Absolutely. Even if the children are fake, you know, the people who get pulled into it are and that betrayal that they experience and that exploitation the experience is real. So yeah, tell me about a couple of the people that, you know, you said you didn't, you didn't really end up keeping a relationship with Emily, but in some of these cases, you know, subsequent cases you did. And so can you tell us a little bit about that? I mean, I think that as I was researching every single case, I would be like, this is the worst one yet. There's no redeeming qualities. This person is just going out there to do. evil and they look in the mirror every day and are like, I am Voldemort, I'm going to like just take this whole thing down. And then I would actually interact with the person and most of the time talk to them and they'd have like a good sense of humor. They'd be like super. I mean, like a lot of

the people that I, that I wrote about were really good writers, you know, like that I was like, okay, take this and like make it fiction and you'd be doing great. You know, like you're better writer than I am. And you just wanted to start a fiction workshop for all these people. I know. And be like, put it in. Again, Andrea, just so naive. Just to get yourself in a creative writing. When I tell you, again, so naive.

Like, it's almost adorable. Like, I just want to be like, oh, cute little Terran, you were so adorable 12 years ago. But yeah, I was like, just write creative writing. You can get a book deal. Like, this is going to be, or, and I'd be like right about being somebody that has fricking munchausen by internet. Like, we've never had that, you know? Like, that's super interesting.

But there'd be something like somebody would have a good sense of humor. wrote about a teenager, and I ended up deleting it off the blog for different reasons. But like, I wrote about her. And it was up for several years. I took it down later. But she and I are still really close friends. And I've like followed her life, you know, like, and we've met each other in person. And it's just nothing is black and white. People do rotten, terrible things. Like I'm sure, you know, like the worst people on earth have friends that don't agree with everything they say, but they are supporting, you know, like. But that is. is a super controversial thing. And I think that that was part of the reason that my Facebook group

kind of collapsed is because a lot of people had a hard time with the fact that I wouldn't kind of villainize the people. What's your experience with it? I'm curious. Like, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, that's something that is very relatable to me. And my experience with it has been similar to yours in some ways, except that I think I started off seeing My sister, you know, was my n-of-one case, right? And so, like, of course I saw her as a human being primarily. And that was more of a journey of sort of, like, separating the person that I sort of thought I knew, you know, from her later actions and sort of who she became and really having to, like, face down what she was capable of. And I think as I've looked at so many subsequent cases, you know, usually I do, I will say, usually even in obviously these are like very extreme you know these are people who have who have done really horrible things to children if anybody who ends up on my show has taken it to an extreme not every manch house in cases as extreme as the ones that are on my show but certainly the ones

who've been involved in like the criminal justice system and you know which is usually the ones we're covering um those people have taken it quite far they've done things like poison their children smother their children in some cases killed their children and it's it's a hard thing to see the humanity in people that do things like that. And I think it's really important because I think if we ever want to understand how to protect children from it, then we need to understand why human beings do those things. Yeah. And need to recognize that it's sort of on a spectrum of human behavior that maybe we would not like to acknowledge exists. Because I think gets much more comforting to say, that person's a monster, I'm a regular human being, et cetera.

And as I have gotten to sort of know, you know, each of the perpetrators that I've covered, I'll always kind of have this interesting moment where I see sort of a flash of humanity come through. Some story about them, some story that one of their family members told me of some memory of them. You know, with Sophie Hartman, you know, I ended up, I'm still friends with her. I ended up getting to know someone who'd been one of her best friends really well. And we still talk to each other all the time. And, like, there were journals included in the police reports where she talked about her personal experiences, like, the way that she was experiencing.

I've been this way since I was a kid and why do I do the things I do. And it was just this very, like, sort of human moment. And the one I had the most trouble with was our season six case. I couldn't find that moment. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I could not find a moment with Lisa where it just felt like a, you know, nobody shared a memory of her that felt just like unrelated to the stuff she was doing. It was just all part of the, it just all felt like part of the scam. And obviously she had taken it to the most extreme. You know, her son died.

And obviously that's just like a difficult thing to face. but I always think that like if I ever stop looking for the humanity and the people I'm talking about, it's time to go. Totally. Agree with you 100%. I mean, that was kind of my way of thinking. You expressed it much better than I did. I do not want to be a person that is like, you know, like here's, look at the crazy person. You know, like here's this crazy person.

This person has done bad things. Like, let's, I'll shame them. Like, I didn't want it to be about shame. I really did think it was helping them as far as like, maybe seeing their name, like in print, seeing other people they had affected on the other side of a keyboard would make them kind of stop and, like, move on to their real life. Like to me, you know, like, and at the, toward the end of my blog, we did, I like hired a psychologist to do a set, do sessions with these people. You know, I was like, hey, I can like refer you to the psychologist.

None of them took me up on it. We offered to find like a psychologist to do like five sessions or something in their hometown. and nobody took me up on that either. Just because I was really kind of concerned with like, okay, I don't want this to just be an experience of like, here's somebody's name on the internet. Like I do want people to get help and like have a good life that they're not feeling the urge to pretend that they have cancer on the internet, you know? Like, and I don't want to be the type of person that's just like, I heard from so many

producers and stuff like that while I was writing my blog that wanted to do TV shows. And the vast majority of them were, all right, we're going to have you hide in the bushes. and this person comes out and you're gonna jump and I was like have you read my blog like jump out and say I know that you're you're pretending to be Amy Marshall online and you have like the catfish the catfish ambush moment with like yeah just like shove a camera from his face it's just like I don't I'm not intimidating in any way and like just it just it was such a bummer I mean like like it's good to talk to you and hear you say that because it's really hard for people to get it because it's it's such a black and white issue for so many people and it

just never was to me and it got harder and harder to kind of like keep that perspective in the blog without having people um i mean i've had a lot of crazy experience because of my blog as far as people reaching out to me in different ways and um that became a little bit too much for me too um so yeah i'm glad i didn't sign up to do a tv show where i was jumping out of pushes of people i mean that would have been pretty horrible Do you know what I'm wearing right now? A beautiful cashmere hoodie from Quince. Do you know what I got my mom and my mother-in-law for Christmas? Kashmir sweaters from Quince. Do you know what I got my husband last Christmas? You guessed it. Quince is rightfully famous for their Mongolian cashmere sweaters because they do not disappoint.

This time of year is dreary and it really helps to put on something that feels cozy and polished enough to make you feel like you can leave the house if you must, which we must. Quince's cashmere sweaters, which I have four of in various styles, are great for workwear, which I'm back on because I have an office now, very exciting, and also as a layering piece. So you can throw them on for a nice little walk to get some fresh air during that small window when the sun is up. And speaking of layers, Quince has you covered from top to bottom. They have perfect teas, tanks, long sleeve shirts, and outerwear. I'm currently on the wait list for the mixed media down and cashmere jacket. I got to put in a call. I want that thing so bad.

If you've been listening for a while, you know that I love Quince and what's not to love. Everything is made from premium materials in ethical, trusted factories, and then priced far below what other luxury brands charge. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to Quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. At MedCan, we know that life's greatest moments

are built on a foundation of good health. From the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish.

Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today. Medcan, live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. You know, and I'll tell you why this has been such an evolving project and, you know, starting off talking about my own personal experience and then interviewing Hope Ybarra, who was such a sort of, you know, kind of a proxy, really, like for my sister because she was so similar and had, you know, sort of felt similar in all these ways.

And I went in with the same thing, right, where I was like, oh, like, I'm going to learn all of this and then maybe I'll be able to help my sister. And at my end of my conversation with Hope where, you know, she was really doing this whole, this is the first season, it's the finale, and she's doing this whole song and dance about I'm so remorse. And she went to present for 10 years. So it was like, there wasn't a question about what she'd done. And she was, oh, I'm so remorseful. And I just would do anything to get back with my family. And, you know, and so I was like, well, I know, like, Mark Feldman and Mary Santa, top experts in the world. Like, if you want that help, oh, absolutely. And, you know, I really, I'm not afraid of.

hard work and but and do you think I ever heard from her again? Like, no, of course not. Because they don't want to help. And so I think I've, I've moved on from that feeling. But certainly, like, in terms of now, if one of them surprises me along the way, off we go. I would absolutely help. Seriously. How wonderful would that be? I mean, yeah. And I keep an open mind for that sometime happening. And I think the more, the more likely and possibly productive thing that could come of that in terms of helping the perpetrators is that if it was caught much earlier and they had not done the things that they've done. I mean, I think the people I cover on the show are in as deep as you can go. So I think that would be a difficult one to turn

around any of the cases that are that are on the show. But I also, like, I just want to reflect you, too, of, like, what I've seen as the real public usefulness of not treating people like monsters is that I think, you know, and as we're sort of expanding the show right now and looking at these other cases that are abuse cases that are not munchausen by proxy and that our parents that have said they've been falsely accused by doctors of abusive head trauma and broken bones and this kind of much more scientifically straightforward cases of abuse and I ended up having a lengthy conversation with one of them and I think that when we when we make it about people being monsters we totally flatten that person and we're not.

not going to recognize what abuse actually is because the reality is, and especially once you sort of get out, and much housing by proxy perpetrators are a specific breed for sure, but like when you sort of widen the scope to like all people who abuse children, they're not monsters who are completely unlike the rest of us. They're human beings who are committing horrible acts. And in many cases, there's a whole bunch of things that led up to them committing that horrible act that could have been prevented along the way. And if we start putting them in these buckets of like, this person's a monster and just no matter what you did, they were going to do this horrible thing.

And then this person's a good human being who would never do this horrible thing. Then we get into these sort of biases where if somebody is, you know, and I look at these narratives about these parents that claim to be falsely accused that were just, there is no evidence. They were falsely accused. And they say these things like, well, this person, you know, they give. give examples of that person being a good dad or that person, you know, is the baseball coach, or they're a paramedic, or they're sort of this other upstanding person in this way. They're a homeowner, you know, sort of these things of like, well, how could that person be the same person

who abused a child so bad they ended up in the hospital? Well, that, but that is the same person who does those things because people are so multifaceted. And I think, you know, it is a little different with munchausen by proxy perpetrators because eventually their entire lives become sort of consumed by the lie and there sort of isn't anything more than a mask eventually. So I do think there is like, it is a little different. But it also like, you know, I think about the perpetrators that we've covered. And, you know, it's, I think you had, you were sort of speaking to this with some of the stuff with Emily where like they were offering comfort to people who were going through that. And and those experiences for those people were real. You know? And so it's like, can you say they never

did anything good? She was raising money for a cancer charity that was. legit and hopefully, you know, that obviously that's horrible that that cancer charity had to go give refunds. I think if I was a person that donated to a legitimate cancer charity because I got a sob story, even if the sob story wasn't real, I would be like, well, it still goes to give the person asking. Same same. Yeah, I don't think I would be the person asking for my refund, but that's, you know, people are entitled to have their own emotional reactions. Human surprise us. I mean, it's, I can't, that's not surprising. But yeah, yeah, I mean, like, people have all kinds of reactions. And I also want to say like, I think people are allowed to have whatever kinds of reaction they have when they're

personally involved. And also, like, you know, it took me a long time to get to this perspective. And I'm sure you had an evolution of your perspective, right? And it's like, you know, if someone is in the moment of finding out they've been betrayed, that's obviously very different from having some time to reflect on. Right. I don't blame people for being angry. I don't blame them for, you know, wanting to cut that person out of their lives. Like, I think those are all understandable reactions. I just think if you're going to be a person that's engaged in telling these stories to any kind of a public audience, that's kind of where the responsibility lies in my mind. What do you, what do you think? Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, again, like, I just, um, I had to start

moderating the comments section of the blog because it just got so just, and again, like, you can be angry. Like, I'm okay with people being angry. I'm okay with people calling me and telling me, you know, how hurt they are and things like that or even like writing about how hurt they are. But when it comes down to like, we're going to make fun of the way this person looks, so we're going to, we're going to call every job they've ever had and tell them that this happened. You know, like, we want to shame them in their community and things like that. Like, again, like, your stakes are much higher than the people who I was writing about. Like, I will say, I really hope you're taking care of yourself because that's a lot. Ooh, like, therapy, again,

has helped me so much. And I did need therapy after, like, writing this blog because. Yeah, I mean, I have a great therapist. Good. I'm so happy to hear that. Because it, like, you said, it can get very dark. Um, and it also, when I did not have any boundaries and I was just taking everything on, whoof, that was a big mistake. So it, um, yeah, I do agree. Like, I value, I think that to be a good person, you've got to be a good person when people aren't watching. Like, I really do believe that. And I don't want to write something to get attention, you know, like the media attention or get my own TV show or get like a book deal and like put somebody down because of that or like climb up the backs of like,

these poor people who have done a horrible thing. But like, I definitely don't want them to suffer shaming. I mean, like, there's, there's such a tendency for people to, like, want to ruin the lives as somebody that have done something wrong. And I get, like, we want to keep people safe from what they're doing. Like, I would kind of agree, like, maybe we don't allow them to start cancer groups or something, you know, like, but not, I never want you to be able to earn a living. I want you to, like, die in a cold trailer somewhere, you know, like, there's a lot of that. Yeah. Well, and I think we've sort of been, you know, in true crime spaces where I think both of our work sort of resides, perhaps uneasily. You know, there is this sort of like narrative arc that people want, which is the law and order narrative. Yeah. Where it ends with a gavel and that person is punished and that it's, you know, and I think about that so much. And it's not really any kind of. And it's not really any kind of. of a solution. And frankly, like, even the people that I look at who have done the worst things

that most people could never possibly imagine, right, to their own children. And, like, you know, I don't care particularly whether or not they're punished. I want the people around them to be safe. Yes. I want, I want them to no longer be able to harm other people. But especially knowing the sort of what I do about what those people are like. I'm like, there's not going to be a lesson learned like ever. So, you know, what is, the point would be, you know, and we've, even this is from talking to survivors who have very complicated feelings about their parents. And some of them really hate their parents and want nothing to do with them. And then some of them really love their parents and can't have relationship with them, but don't want their parents to be, you know,

in pain and don't want their parents to be ostracized. They just, you know, so it's like, I think that's really opened my eyes. Like, it's just like, it's complicated and like there is no, yeah, there is no neat bow to tie things on the end. No. You know? And I got that a lot in my blog, you know, like writing the blog that people would be like, well, let's contact the police station. And I'm like, what laws is this person broke? Like, this person pretended to be somebody on the internet. Like, that is not a crime. and a lot of people would say, like, the technology hasn't caught up with it yet. You know, like the law enforcement is lagging behind the technology. Like, there's something has to be done with these terrible people that are stealing pictures on the internet.

And it's like, really? Like, again, I'm sure you and I could talk about prison reform and stuff all day long. And, you know, like, it's supposed to be, you know, like a punishment that improves the person, right? Like, what improves this person by sitting in prison for taking somebody's picture? You know, like, come on. Yeah. Well, and I think it's funny, it's like a mark of the time that's passed, right, between now and, like, in the mid-2010s of, like, I think most people would, like, sort of the idea that a person on the internet is not who they say they are is sort of, like, so normalized now that you're like, you know, if, like, somebody's getting, if some, like, you know, middle-aged schlub guy is getting, like, a lot of messages from, like, a super hot, lady in Ukraine, you're like, dude, my dude, you know, that's not a real lady. And that might not even

now, it's like that might not even be a picture of a real human. That might not be a Pilford picture. That might be an AI-created picture. So I just, I wonder like as a person who's been, you know, online and this was, yeah, it's like, I mean, I am almost sort of nostalgic for the WordPress, the blog spot, you know, those, that, that era of the internet, the mommy blogger. You know, may she, may she rest. She's become like the TikTok tradwife or whatever the iteration is now. But like, what do you think about this problem of Munchausen by internet? Do you think it's, uh, headed in, uh, the right direction? Do you think people have gotten more savvy about it? Or do you think like, oh, if there was like, uh, that many opportunities back in 2013, there's just like

exponentially more now? I mean, I think I got out of the business at the right time, honestly. Like, I loved I loved like pouring through a 300 page blog and like looking for inconsistencies like but um yeah now AI holy mackerel and again like it's normalized that people are lying on the internet then I had a um I think the year that I started the blog the catfish movie came out and like a Huffington post writer actually came to my house for two days to watch the movie together with me to like see what I thought of the movie I mean that's how not heard of it was then You know, like it wasn't this problem that we all, like, knew about. It was pretty new.

And now, I mean, like, for a while I thought, okay, everything's video. Like, it's going to be harder for people to fake stuff. But I had hoaxers that shave their heads. I had hoaxers that bought medical equipment and wheelchairs online and snuck into an ER and, you know, like took pictures of themselves with like a vitals machine. I mean, there's all sorts of things people will do to get attention and because of their sickness or because of whatever. I don't think it's going away. I mean, it doesn't seem to have gone away. I'm still, weirdly, like, I don't read them, like you said, like it sets me into a wormhole that I don't want to get into. But for a while, after I closed the blog, I can't even remember the year I closed it, but I just stopped updating. But I would still do the same work. You know, like, I would kind of like work on hoaxes with like a group of five people and we'd sort of like deal with things internally and like email the person and be like, hey, please stop doing this. You know, just it just, it got to. to the point with my blog that anytime I posted anything, it would be like a nightline story,

which is too much pressure for me. And also like, that's a freaking like nightline would literally pick it up. Like nightline would be like, okay, could we hope you want again to like talk about this? And I'm like, how much can we talk about that? I mean, like, again, like I know that it's a super, I shouldn't say that as I'm appearing on a podcast right now talking about it. But like, um, it just became a lot of pressure. And also I was like, okay, it's one thing if I'm like writing about these people and it just stays on a WordPress blog and like people pass it on Facebook. It's another with I write about it and it's like on Gawker and stuff. You know, like it's crazy.

Gawker like RIP. RIP. Gosh. Good times on Gawker for a while. I miss Gawker. Me too, man. Katie Weaver. I read it every day in my 20s when I lived in New York.

Katie Weaver's still writing. So that's a good thing. I freaking love her. She's the best. Yeah. Lots like honestly. Honestly, honestly. so much good talent on Docker and

Jessville about your time. I mean, Giotolentino. Seriously, Giacar was incredible. I wish I had like actually, you know, like been born around the time where that was, we were born at the very worst time to be journalists, you and me. I'm just a tiny bit older, but like journalism had collapsed like the year I graduated

from college. So, I'm sorry, what was the question? I have total ADD. Can you tell? Oh, no, I don't know. No, we were just kind of talking about like how the internet has changed and yeah, it does. I mean, it's so funny to think about like the catfish movie that then obviously spawned this franchise. And I think if we're talking about ethical presentations of people who are pretending to be someone

online, Catfish, Neve Schulman, maybe not a shining example. No. We were on 2020 together weirdly. And I didn't meet him. It was just like two separate stories. But like I think he kind of is a warning to people. I mean, I don't want to like rip on him. But, like, I don't want to be the type of person that's doing something just to have an MTV show and, like, making stuff up just to, like, make something interesting, you know?

Well, yeah. And, I mean, that show, I did watch some of it. It was pretty addictive. The movie was fascinating. But, I mean, I mean, then there's been, I think, Dave Schulman's a pretty well-known problematic figure at this point. But also, I think there wasn't, I do think it's a cautionary tale in sort of, you know, listen, hoaxes and liars and, you know, scams. like they're fascinating. And I'm, I'm not, you know, we don't shy away from, we certainly don't do things for entertainment value, but we don't, I know that the storytelling piece is important. And like, I get all of that.

And we are, you know, you do have to like sort of tell these compelling stories if you want people to listen and kind of get the message you want them to get. But I think, you know, Catfish never seemed to have a higher calling than just let's find this loser in their, you know, basement who's pretending to be someone that they're not. And I think, you know, in the, in in in retrospect, a lot of those people were going through something that had they been presented differently, probably would seem a lot more sympathetic either mental health issues or, you know, gender dysphoria issues or, I mean, all kinds of things that just were not handled, you know, maybe not best handled by a sort of cackling fratboy approach to. No, I mean, what could go wrong with that? Sticking a camera someone's face, what can go wrong? I just, again, have to like hope that so much of it is just made up for

TV. Like, I can't, I haven't watched it since maybe the first season. But, um, yeah, it's, it's not my thing. I, again, like, you got to have integrity with what you're doing, especially, like, with these topics that are, you know, like, very sensitive and stuff like that. And, uh, I don't think I could sleep a night if I was just, like, producing stuff just to get, like, clicks or, like, producing stuff just to get whatever. Are there ads on blog? I don't even know. I'm so not on, like, I really did, like, kind of withdraw from internet stuff after the blog, just because it was a lot.

We did, we filmed a pilot with Lifetime and they had agreed that anybody that we, like, wrote about, or I talked about, I guess it would be, would get mental health treatment for like two years or something. I mean, it really was going to be like super well done. And then they ended up changing their president and they went along. And now I'm like, God, that was so wonderful. I cannot even imagine if I was like doing a TV show with the pressure to kind of like keep everything. I mean, it just would not work with a topic like this.

Like it has to be done in a sensitive way and like it has to be done in a way that it's not going to ruin the lives of the people that you're writing about in ways that you can't even think of. You know, like I had a hard time finding a job after my blog. Like that's the ironic part. Like it people would Google me and think that I was like a industrial spy or something like that I was just like starting a blog to like write about their copywriting. department or something, but it, you know, like there's, it's a monkey's paw situation. Like, you don't know what you're wishing for. When the weather cools down, Golden Nugget Online Casino turns up the heat. This winter, make any moment golden and play thousands of games like her new slot Wolf It Up and all the fan favorite Huff and Puff games. Whether you're

curled up on the couch or taking five between snow shovels, play winner's hottest collection of slots from brand new games to the classics you know and love. You can also pull up your favorite table games like blackjack, roulette, and craps, or go for even more excitement with our library of live dealer games. Download the Golden Nugget Online Casino app and you've got everything you need to layer on the fun this winter. In partnership with Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling Problem Call ConX Ontario at 1866-531-2600.

19 and over physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See golden nuggetcasino.com for details. Please play responsibly. That's all really true. Fortunately, this is my full-time job now. I'm so cool. Because I don't know how hireable I would be with my Google results these days.

Oh, great. Yeah, I mean, no, this is all been, this has all been so interesting. I mean, I think, like, I think the sort of last piece I wanted to ask you about it, I just think, like, you know, in addition to sort of our understanding about how much people can fake online, which I think has evolved a lot. I think our understanding of what attention gives us, because, you know, you were saying, like, the cases where people are just scamming or it's like, oh, they faked cancer so that they could raise $20,000. Like, that's not that interesting. I think most people understand that like, and honestly, it's like it also crosses over with these things where it's like I think about, you know, into getting like if someone's just, if someone has a legitimate illness or has a kid that's ill and they're acting just kind of like weird online or performative online. I'm like, well, you know, unfortunately we live in hell and sometimes people have to go perform their pain so that they can raise money to pay for their, you know. I never even thought about that, but that's horrible.

Oh, God. It's like, I don't know. It's like, yeah, where to sort of draw the. lines and you're just like, well, yeah, like people are desperate because they can't be the medical pills. I don't know. Like, well, I'm not going to criticize them for being a little weird. But, you know, you also like, so we were sort of talking about, I think that where it becomes more interesting and sort of a bigger question mark is like when people are doing it in the absence of any material gain. And that's obviously where, you know, enter Dr. Mark Feldman, right? And I think like people's understanding of why someone would do something outrageous just for attention has really shifted.

Because I think like pre-influencer, you know, and yeah, okay, like I guess there's an idea, too, that you could become an influencer, a podcast or whatever, and, you know, and make a lot of money. But I think most people understand that that's very, very unlikely. Right. I mean, like the percentage of people that are making their money and that, you know, translating attention for money, you know, is small. So it's like, I think we've really our understanding has evolved on like attention being its own kind of currency, especially in this sort of like isolated post pandemic world where everyone's like, I just think it's like the idea of having a life online is so different than it was in 2013. I mean, yeah, what do you think about about that? Like how are really? live how are we living our lives online differently and like how do we understand the currency of attention maybe differently than we did back in back in the old gawker blog spot era um that is something i've never thought about as far as i mean like literally so much has been studied as you know the dopamine hit you get from instagram i see it with people family members you know that don't ever put their phone down if they post on instagram they're just like constantly

refreshing to see likes and stuff and it does affect your brain Yeah, I wonder if that kind of does. I mean, like, there was nothing like that. Like, you know, like, I think I had a smartphone, but I definitely wasn't like using Instagram or Facebook on my phone at that point. Yeah, I would say that that is like such a valid point that now like kind of everybody is posting their entire lives online. And it's, I mean, it's strange to me. I think it's strange once you kind of get out of it for a while.

Like I didn't have Instagram for two years or two years. something and now I have it but just like family um and then you go back on and you're like wow this is so weird that people are like here's what I made for dinner today and they like post a picture of it or like here's this like intimate I mean people posting with like their dead grandparents and stuff it's just kind of wild like anything for that like click and it's nothing you know like but it our brains are such dopamine addicts that it's difficult to kind of get out of that cycle and you wonder how much of that yeah like gosh I kind of specious with that one because I have to really do that, do something thinking on it.

But that is, that's a wild thing to think about. Just now, like, kind of everybody is curating their lives in a way that boost attention seeking. You know, like, you could take any life and kind of make it interesting now and people follow it. You know, like, we're, we're like all, we're all engaging. It's like, I think it's not this a lot like that so many people are engaging in a sort of low-grade form of this behavior and like in a very low-grade form, right? But like, I think the apex moment of it for me was that show the, uh, the secret lives of Mormon wives, where you had the mom talk, the Whitney mom talk lady, who is, I don't know if you watch that show at all. I watched the first season, but like, so they have this, they have this mom talk. So it's a, it's a

bunch of like hot, super young moms in Mormon, like Utah. And they all do, I don't know, TikTok things. I just, I only met them via the show. And one of them was really under fire for doing, um, a TikTok of herself dancing with her baby in the background, uh, in the NICU. Oh, yeah. I remember when that was. And she was not. There's no like, hint of her being, uh, an abuser or anything like that. But obviously this is just like a bad look, you know, to be like doing TikTok dances in the, like next to your baby and the thing.

And it's just like, and I was like, like, and I was like, like, like, and I was. like, like, and I was. And I was like, oh, something, something has crossed over. Like, something has broken through where it's like, yeah, it's like she's doing a version of sort of munchy behavior by like using, by using a medical crisis to get attention and sympathy because she knows that like that's why she's sharing it presumably. And obviously there was like backlash in this incident. But it's like, you can just see where it's like, oh, if someone's posting all of their stuff online and they're already putting a ton of content with their kids online, which I think is like something that we will all look back on in horror in a future era, just be like, why did we ever let anyone put pictures of kids online ever for any reason? But like you're just like, oh, yeah, like this is a lady who's just lost her boundaries. And like, are we all headed in some direction where we're all just performing our illnesses online?

It's like you can just see it's like it's spilled over so much in. to like people that are not in the profile of someone who's doing it, but it's like I see people talking. It's like people self-diagnosed so much more. People are talking about their like, people are just on here, you know, talking about all of their diagnoses, psychological and otherwise. And I'm just like, yeah, like the degree to which we've lost our boundaries around all of this. And like, I think it's like great that it's been normalized. And so I'm like, maybe it has been too normalized. But yeah, it's just that's something I just think about a lot. And it's like talking about this era of like blogs and like sort of photo sharing websites in their infancy. Oh, it's just like, man,

it's a different world. I totally know what you're saying about. I mean, like the woman dancing in the in the intensive care unit, I don't know how to pronounce that. You see it. I mean, like, have you ever like stumbled upon somebody that has like a lot of Facebook friends, but not a lot of interaction from them? And they just constantly are like on my way to the doctor, have a fever. Like, it's just like this constant like drip of information about health stuff you know like and they don't even get a lot of attention from it but it's just like become normalized to like I mean I had my appendix out in February and I was like imagining what it would be like to be like in the ER right now you know like here's my results of this like sharing just sharing your vitals getting a selfie with the drip

and yeah I mean it's nuts and then I'm sitting there like feeling terrible and imagining like taking selfies you know like to post on Instagram it's such a weird Again, like the trick is to like leave Instagram, leave Facebook for two years, come back and then just be horrified by like what it has become because it's just so strained. We both sound like two little Luddites like, how dare you? I mean, I long for it. I long for it. I feel like it's really telling that like the being offline is something that people now are just like envious of. Like the immediate feeling is envy if you talk to someone that's like, I'm just not like my business partner bad.

And it's just like, I'm just like not on social media. I'm like, how? What do you mean? Like, how do you do it? Well, so are you, as my kind of like last question, like, where did this all take you? So you're no longer doing the blog. Are you doing any kind of hoax hunting? Or is this just like, have you hung up your, have you hung up your sword or what, where's your

hoax hunting life these days? I can say, I mean, yeah, I'm done. I have no desire. Every once in a while, I'll be like, I'll come upon something that's kind of interesting and I'll be like, should I write about this? And I'm like, no. It's just, it just was too much psychologically. And like, again, the filming the pilot, then the pilot didn't work.

And then like having to tell people that I knew, you know, like, oh, I'm so upset because my pilot didn't get picked up. Like, what the hell am I talking about? You know, like, that's an insane sentence coming from, you know, south side of Chicago, English major Taryn. I have written a memoir and I'm working on the second draft of that so I'm hoping to like shop that. And it does involve hoax hunting a little bit. I yeah, I'm done hoax hunting.

I just got laid off in September. So if anybody knows any good copywriting jobs, just say the word. I was the head of copywriting for a terrible coupon website that I'll tell you after we got off of. Yeah, talk about using my talents. Yeah, I think I'm done. Like I definitely appreciate you and people that are like doing this in the right way. But I think that I've said my piece on it pretty much. And I'm ready to kind of move on from dealing with people, crazy people on both sides of the issue.

And there definitely are a lot on both sides. Yeah. Well, is there anything that you wish I had asked you that we did not ask you? I mean, one interesting thing is Dr. Feldman told me, I mean, this was 15 years ago, so maybe things change. But he told me that the people that are doing Munchausen by Internet, if they didn't have Internet, they would be doing Munchausen by proxy or Munchausen themselves, which I think is kind of interesting because I guess it's, what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I think there's, I think there's a possibility to that. I mean, and you know, we've really moved away in the space of talking about a child abuse, we've really, including Mark, you know, we've really moved away from describing Munchausenbe proxy as a psychological disorder because that just really creates a lot

of confusion and people then start to understand it as something that a psychologist could diagnose when they really can't. Yeah. In, you know, they can't by evaluating a person. They would have to be able to see all the records that would do what Mark does essentially when he reviews cases. And that has just, you know, describing it that way has taken a lot of the footings. focus off of the child who's being harmed and away from the fact that it is a crime that's being

committed by a person who understands right from wrong. So we are, you know, we still talk about it in a psychological context, but I think, but I think, you know, when it's harmed to a child, like, you really have to look at it in these other sort of child welfare context. Absolutely. But with that said, you know, we certainly understand that it is a deeply compulsive behavior. And when you look at these cases, over time and sort of where these behaviors start, often, you know, as teenagers, right, if not younger, it seems like it needs a place to go. And so like, and it will sort of move, you know, we sort of see, you see it move on. It's like mothers will move on to a younger child

if a younger child's born. If their children are on the house, they start perpetrating on themselves again or they start perpetrating on an older parent or someone they're caretaking for. So it really does feel like it needs to have an outlet. So I think that is sort of like an uncomfortable question to sit with. It's like, yes, it's bad, right? We all recognize the harm that comes from people perpetrating these kinds of, you know, fraudulent behaviors online and that can be sort of exploitative. And is that a better place for it than in the real world? And also obviously a lot of people that are doing it in the real world also do it a lot on the right so it's like it's not necessarily an either or thing but but yeah it i think it just it speaks to the question of like what do we do with people who engage in

these behaviors because certainly not all of them will physically harm another person but it is harmful and the vast majority of people do not want help right that's the most frustrating part yeah they're not willing to acknowledge the behavior they're not willing to take full accountability and they don't want help. They want to be allowed to continue the behaviors. And, you know, that's something that I've had some uncomfortable, you know, if you want to talk about sort of like groups of people that have coalesced around the issue, you know, it's, as you can imagine, you know, there are survivors that engage in

in some behaviors that they've learned. Oh, my gosh. It's very complicated. You know? It's very complicated. I'm glad you're taking good care of yourself. Now I'm going to worry about you. Yeah.

No, don't worry about you. Did you ever think of going back? I have a great therapist. I have a great team. Mariah and I do heavy lifting at the gym. That helps us work through our rage. That's amazing. Yeah, you need something, honestly.

Like, it eats away at you. But I'm glad you're taking care of. Do you ever think of going back and getting some kind of psychology degree or anything? Not at the moment just because I'm so busy with the show. But I certainly like I'm very interested in it and it is really fascinating. I love talking to our psychologist colleagues. Same. Well, Taryn, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for being with us and for sharing this story and just like your fascinating work that you did on this. Thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you're doing. It's so important and take care of yourself. Appreciate it. That goes for everyone out there. Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.