Nobody Should Believe Me - True Story Media Presents: PRETEND

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

In the third installment of True Story Media Presents, Andrea sits down with Javier Leiva—host and creator of PRETEND. The two talk about how they first connected, their new partnership under True Story Media, and the overlapping themes in their work. They dig into the emotional toll of telling true crime stories, and Javier shares his path from local news and documentary filmmaking into the world of true crime podcasting, and how his show has become a space to unravel deception, trauma, and control. Javier also introduces listeners to one of his latest series: The Internet Saves the Bachelor. It follows former Bachelor star Clayton Echard as he’s pulled into a web of deception by Laura Owens—including a fabricated pregnancy that spiraled into chaos. *** Listen to PRETEND: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend/id1245307962 Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content.  Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media Hello, it's Andrea, and it is a big day over here, because I know that so many of you are going to be excited about today's crossover. Today, on our True Story Media presents series, we have none other than Javier Lava from Pretend, who I know has many fans within the Nobody Should Believe Me audience. Javier was one of my very first friends in the podcasting industry. He has been a big supporter of the show from The Jump, and it is a genuine joy for me to announce that we're working together. We're going to get into how we met in today's episode.

It's a pretty interesting story, and he's also going to walk us through a really fascinating case. Thank you for all of the feedback on these True Story Presents episodes. We've got one more coming next week, and then we will be back to our regular case files episodes. We're going to be talking about the Olivia Gant case, we're going to be digging into Chronic Line. We're going to be talking about Kendra Lakari and Munchausen by Internet.

And, of course, we are still on our season 6 case, so we will be bringing you updates from Michelle and Aunt Sabrina and some other folks connected to that story. And in the meantime, we are currently working hard in pre-production on Season 7, which will be coming at you early in 26, so stay tuned for more on that. In the meantime, as always, if you want to support the show, the best way to do that is by subscribing on Apple or on Patreon. We've got a lot of extra episodes there, including our coverage of Netflix's unknown number,

which approximately a bajillion of you asked me about. Thank you, as always, for listening. And with that, enjoy the show. These are harrowing times in America, especially for our friends and neighbors in immigrant communities. So if you're looking for resources or ways to help, we wanted to let you know about a wonderful organization that we're partnering with this month. The National Immigrant Justice Center has worked for more than 40 years to defend the rights of immigrants. NIGC blends direct legal services, impact litigation, and policy advocacy to fight for due process for all and to hold the U.S. government accountable to uphold human rights.

NIGC's experienced legal staff collaborate with a broad network of volunteer lawyers to provide legal counsel to more than 11,000 people each year, including people seeking asylum, people in ICE detention, LGBTQ immigrants, victims of people. of human trafficking, unaccompanied immigrant children, and community members who are applying for citizenship and permanent residents. NIGC continues to fight and win federal court cases that hold the U.S. government accountable to follow U.S. law and the Constitution. In recent months, NIH's litigation has challenged ICE's unlawful practice of arresting people without warrants and has successfully blocked President Trump's proclamation to shut down access to asylum at the border. As ICE continues to abduct people from our communities and the U.S. departments deports thousands of people without a chance to have a judge consider their cases,

it is more important than ever that we come together to defend due process. All people in the United States have rights, regardless of immigration status. You can donate and learn more about NIHC's work by visiting immigrantjustice.org. That's immigrantjustice.org. You can find that link and more information at our website. This ad was provided pro bono. Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show. Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters. And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not

support ICE. I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants. Immigrants make this country great. Javier Leva, welcome so much to nobody should believe me. It is such a pleasure to have you here. You and your show pretend are our newest members of True Story Media. And I could not be more excited to collaborate with you. So you and I have known each other for a few years. And I was wondering if you wanted to actually tell us your memory of how we met, because I'm wondering if it lines up, it seems like it seems like it was kind of a long time ago now, but it was probably about three years ago. Gosh, I have this very vivid memory of how, of me listening to season one of nobody should believe me. And I don't know if I discovered your show and then contacted you or

it was the other way around, but I was hanging Christmas lights and I just couldn't believe what I was listening to. And it was right around the same time that I was working on a, on a case that started off as a stalker case, but ended up becoming a factitious disorder case. And it was a no-brainer for us to connect. And I even had you as a guest on my show to talk about that. Yeah. So for those who are not already listeners of your show, but it's the season of the stalker, which will include in the show notes, it's a fascinating story that does take a surprise Munchausen turn. And we won't say too much more about it than that, but it was really fascinating to connect with you over that story. And you also interviewed Detective Mike for that season. So it was a real, like, that was

kind of our first collab moment on the show. And that was when we were pretty brand new. So actually, we really got some of our first significant audience from sharing audiences with pretend. So it's really feels like. And we're partnering still. And now we're, yeah. And so we saw that synergy right away, if you will. But I have long appreciated and admired just the journalistic integrity that you bring to your show and that you really, you know, just do these obsessive style, deep dive, chase it to the ends of the earth type reporting that to me is one of the most rewarding parts of this job and kind of the thing that even despite how difficult the material is that we cover on my show in particular is kind of a thing that brings me back, right? Because I think just if you sort of have

that type of brain, it is very satisfying to just chase these stories. Yeah, no, it is a thrill, but then, as you know, when you're done with the story, or even when you're in the thick of it, it really takes, like an emotional toll on you. And it's tough because the show must go on, right? but we are human and we could only absorb so much of this horror show because, you know, listeners are only listening to like an hour at a time or 30 minutes at a time or whatever, but we are living it like over and over and over again. I mean, and the victims are too, but I mean, we're just like sitting with this terrible material for so long.

Yeah. That, yeah. I mean, every time I'm done with a big investigation, I need to walk away. Yeah. And so I'm curious to talk just a little bit about your process. I mean, first of all, how did you get into true crime podcasting? This is a job that no one is specifically trained for, right? Because the interesting thing about podcasting is everyone comes from another industry

because this industry has only existed for a few years, really, as an industry. I guess I come from the old school true crime world, which was local news. You know, I did a lot of local news growing up. air like in my career early in my career um at the same time i was also doing documentary work and i missed it i miss being in news i miss telling stories and so about eight years ago i just started pretend i was my cousin is a white-collar offender and everybody knew he was a black sheep of the family i just had no idea what exactly he did so one day i sat with him for hours with a recorder and i asked him i said eric just tell me everything he told me

everything. The time he broke into cars, to breaking into houses, to staging car accidents for auto insurance fraud to the point where he opened up a medical clinic, hired a real doctor and started selling opioids. And that's what ultimately landed him in federal prison. And my jaw was on the ground. I couldn't believe it. And so I was like, yeah, this is what this show is about, you know? And yeah, I've been doing ever ever since, you know, and it's not hardcore true crime. It's white-collar crime, but it almost seems like people are tired of the serial killers and they want to hear stories about the crimes that could actually probably happen to them, right? Like, chances are you're never going to encounter a serial killer ever in your lifetime,

but you might encounter one of these narcissists that, you know, will wreak havoc on your lives and countless other lives as well. Yeah, it's so interesting. And I did know that story about your cousin. And I wonder, and I would speculate that, you know, having that family connection to start with, like you've seen the havoc that wreaks within a family. You've seen how that sort of like really impacts a family, right? And I think you bring a different lens to true crime coverage when you've

seen the impacts of these things and that like automatically gives you uh you're not sort of holding it at a distance and looking at it as entertainment for entertainment sake well and i see these people as people right like these con artists it's so easy to just label them as con artists and narcissists and that they're one dimensional but they're not i love my cousin i still talk to my cousin do i keep one eye on him all the time is not going to give him your pin number but you know yeah i'm not I'm going to give him my pen number, but you know what? He's my cousin, and he has a good heart, like he really does, actually. He always has, but he's a hustler, you know?

He's a hustler, man. And, like, he says he's on the up and up, and he's a business owner, but I don't know. And so, like, you're right. I do know both sides of it, but I always try when I'm talking, especially I always try to talk to the perpetrator or the con artist or whoever, right? I always try to talk to them at eye level, right? Because if we start judging them from the get-go, they're going to close up. And I think what's fascinating, I think why listeners listen is because they want to understand

the psychology. Like, why do they do what they do? And, you know, a good, bad guy in a movie, like a villain, is never always a villain, right? Like, they're multi-dimensional. And so that's what I try to bring out in these stories. I'm not trying to sympathize with them to the point where, you know, know, or give them a platform because you've got to be careful about that, too. But I do want to paint a story that goes beyond just the victim's story. Yeah, I think that's, it's helpful

because I do think that when, even if someone is sort of like, you know, when we portray, and I think especially with, you know, violent criminals or people that abuse children, which is who I'm talking about on the show necessarily, even people that have done, you know, these big con artist job. It's like, it's very, easy for people to put it at a distance by being like, well, that person's not like me or like someone in my family. That would never happen to me, right? That sort of making them another is a way to sort of make yourself feel safe from that issue, from that person, from that type of behavior. And the reality is that, no, this is all just within the sort of human spectrum of

human behavior. And if we start to make it something else, then we're not actually looking at the problem. And so I think the question of sympathy is a challenging one, I think, especially in my sphere where like that's also the drug, right? That's the thing that that's part of what they're trying to get. And so you don't want to like play into that. But I think, yeah, like you said, to just talk to them like a human being, try and figure out what led a person to behave that way. What is it about a person that makes them behave that way?

Helps us better recognize those people when we see them out in the world. And I think that that's really valuable. Yeah. You know, you mentioned something. got me thinking, and I've never said this before, I might regret it, but I think there's two types of con artists. There's the con artists that everybody thinks is out there, which is a professional con artist where it's their job to rip you off. And those are the Nigerian princes. Those are your politicians, whatever, like these people that are just like, that's their job

to take your money, right? Those guys, yeah, they're out there. But the ones that really hurt are the ones that are in your circle because it's it's not about i mean yes losing a bunch of money it sucks right i often find that it's the betrayal that hurts the most right the fact that these people feel like fools for trusting somebody the fact that they cannot trust somebody because of whatever happened to them you know i mean like they can't find a relationship anymore they just don't trust anybody and that's devastating right like you could recover financially but you you cannot recover when you're permanently scarred and you're just alone because you've been violated you've been yeah it is it's a huge violation and I think that's something that especially when we you know

we look at sort of these circles of harm that happen around the perpetrators that we talk about on the show and obviously the most impacted are their children and then their spouse and family members of people they're really close but especially once you get past that sort of initial layer and you look at all these people that got pulled in to helping that family or fundraising for that family or just were emotionally invested in what was happening and then find out it's all a lie. I mean, it really, that really messes with people. And I think the psychological damage done to everyone involved is often worse, even than the worst physical effects that happen to the children, you know, the adult survivors. I know that is the thing that they

struggle with the most, just that ultimate betrayal of like the person that was supposed to love you the most, you know? And I think that is a harder thing for people to quantify than the financial piece. And so I think sometimes it's like, oh, well, you know, like, yeah, that person, you know, ripped you off, but you'll be fine. And it's kind of like that part that's harder to quantify and that sort of inhibiting someone's ability to believe their own perception of reality is so damaging. And I think that's just something that people do not necessarily understand unless they've been through it or have been kind of walked through it. And just know that if you think that you you won't off off or some of these scams, you're the perfect target because that's what's

going to make it hurt even more, right, when it does happen. And these guys are going to outskill you every time. They are very talented at manipulation. Most people don't think the way they do, right? These guys are 10 steps ahead of you. And don't ever let your guard down by saying, oh, this would never happen to me because it can. Right. And I think that's when it hurts the most. That's also like a really convenient way to kind of victim blame, you know, where people are just like, well, that idiot.

I wouldn't fall for that. It's like, well, you know, like maybe not today, but maybe if you were in a vulnerable spot or maybe, you know, it's like older people get scammed all the time. Well, if you're lucky, you're going to be an old person one day. It's like, you know, it's like people. I know. But, you know, even I victim blame sometimes and like I'm like, I try not to because, you know, I know out of everyone I should know not to do that. But like sometimes I'm sitting in on these calls and this woman like that I'm doing a story on right now is just like, yeah, he promised he was going to pay me back. And so I bought the plane ticket and then yeah, I stayed in this Manhattan hotel for like three months. But he said he was going to pay me back. And then we flew to Texas and then he made me get the train and the hotel. And like I was like at what point do you say, hey, he's not going to pay you back. You're like this woman is down now to a thousand dollars. And like she's, you know what I mean? And so it's hard. to, as an outsider, to be like, come on, you should have known something, but we weren't there. That's the thing that that's amazing about these guys is that from an outsider, we're like, when are you going to put an end to this, right? But you weren't there.

Right. You didn't see the tactics that these con artists used to manipulate you, almost like smother you where you cannot rationally think about things anymore, right? So like now that you're telling the story, it sounds ridiculous, but when you're in the middle of that hurricane, yeah, it's really hard to put yourself in those shoes. Yeah, it can be impossible to see your way out. And I know that like, it's like people, I think by and large, and this is like such a shared theme of both of our shows, right, is sort of this cast-lighting and manipulation, deception, and betrayal trauma. And like,

I think people just totally overestimate their ability to make logical decisions with regards to people that are in their lives. And it's like, or really with regards to anything, because people, if you have some idea that, like, you're this logical person, you're going to evaluate all of the, you know, facts in front of you and you're just going to make a non, you know, an unemotional sort choice about how to move forward. It's like, that's not how anybody operates in life. We all make emotional decisions. We make emotional decisions about, about work, about relationships, about politics, about money. It's like all of those things are heavily, heavily influenced by emotional. It's like, you can't argue someone like, and I think we've all had these experience.

around things like politics when we disagree. It's like if you're just trying to like, oh, we're just going to evaluate the facts. It's like that's not what anyone does. It's like we all exist in the context and we all bring all of our emotional baggage to everything and your relationship with that person, right? And if someone's exploiting their relationship with you and your trust, it's like, yeah, those decisions might look totally illogical from the outside, but in the internal logic of the relationship, they make perfect sense. And I always would say about my sister, like she had a reality distortion field around her. So I would be away from her and I would kind of be like, wait a minute, like this doesn't add up. And then I'd bring those concerns to her. And in the

moment, I'd be like, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. And then I'd walk away and again, I'd be like, wait a minute. Like, that doesn't make sense. And it's just this continual experience that people get in. And so I think it's like, yeah, it's very easy if you're not in the distortion field at that moment to be like, okay, he's not going to pay you back. But it's like, if you are in this emotional relationship with someone and it has all its emotional truths, you know. So there's probably some line where like, especially with, you know, these kind of thing, like romance scams and stuff like that where you're like, well, people do need to like take some adult accountability for not participating and maybe have like an appropriate amount of skepticism, like not to say

like everyone's off the hook. But it's also like we should always blame the people that are the predators in the situation and try and figure out how to make the systems harder to exploit than they are. Well, but you know, I saw something on TikTok. it's kind of a loose analogy here but it was a garbled piece of audio it made no sense it was like you know like very staticy and the guy goes i'm going to tell you now what what it said and i'm going to play you the audio again and so he he told us what it said and then he played that garbled audio again but now our brain was able to make sense out of the noise right and so what i'm getting at is there are some signs that you can pick up like if you know about it

that when you are confronted in these situations that you will be able to recognize it you just need to know them right so like love bombing also you know being overly generous right it's almost like they're fattening you up so when when they need a favor it doesn't seem that outrageous right like this guy's been paying for every dinner and now he needs he's in trouble he needs he needs a thousand dollars why wouldn't i help him you know that's part of the setup trying to consume your time all the time, you know, so that you, you are always around this person and they're isolating you from every relationship. They're creating these fantasies, like, you know, these crazy stories that are unverifiable, but maybe it's possible, I don't know.

And there's always sudden escalation of, like, tense moments, you know, like if you start recognizing these, these are all, like, tips. that I've amassed, like, from the eight years of doing this, right? Like, these are all tactics that they use over and over again. And if you start recognizing them, that's why I think by our show is very important because our listeners are listening, right? And these are stories, but collectively they're learning. Yeah, because it's a pattern, right?

What to look for. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's, I always say, like, with the Munchausen stuff in particular, like, you know, which also these cases always involve all of this other deception, right? So there's the medical stuff, which is usually the highlight. that's where the medical abuse happens. But there's also just like, I mean, so much financial fraud, infidelity on these, on these very sort of extreme levels, you know, lying about work

qualifications, just lying about everything. It's an everything everywhere all at once kind of thing. Factitious disorder is like a subset of con artists. Yeah, it's a behavior in this other constellation of just like complete deceptive behavior all the time. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply.

Learn more at Amex.ca. Slash-y-A-M-X. Did you lock the front door? Check. Close the garage door? Yep. Installed window sensors, smoke sensors, and HD cameras with night vision? No.

And you set up credit card transaction alerts, secure VPN for a private connection, and continuous monitoring for our personal info on the dark web. I'm looking into it. Stress less about security. Choose security solutions from TELUS for peace of mind at home and online. Visit TELUS.com slash Total Security to learn more. Conditions apply. You know, one of the things that I love about your show and that I think is so special about podcasting. And one of the reasons that I'm really enjoying being in this space,

is because I feel like podcasting is a great place to take big swings for better or worse sometimes, but there's fewer guardrails, I think, in podcasting than there are in some of these other forms of media, which, you know, you come from news media. I come from book publishing. I think we could maybe use a few more guardrails in podcasting. But I think part of the reason it's so exciting to be part of this like burgeoning industry is because there's a lot of exciting stuff here. Like, you can take big swings and podcasting. Like, I don't think that my show could have been anything other than a podcast, right? Because I was trying to sort of break through with some of this media before, right, trying to get the traditional media cut to cover this topic, trying to like,

you know, and like sort of looking at these other properties that were getting made around the topic and where they were falling short. And it's just like, oh, no, I just think it had to be a podcast because this is the genre where you can really do risky things and you can, it's accessible enough that you can sort of do it independently. And so that's one thing I love about your shows, I feel like you really push the envelope, but in a responsible way, have there been any moments, you know, you were talking about kind of like the emotional toll that this can take, and that's just from the sort of vicarious trauma that we experience in just the sort of exhaustion of, you know, being on one of these cases. But, you know, obviously, like, part of it is that

we're getting tangled up with potentially scary people, right? Oh, yeah. Have there been any moments for you where you were like, oh boy, like maybe I should drop this or maybe I should have dropped this. Those are usually the good ones. Yeah. I mean, I think probably both of us have those feelings and then, you know, and then proceed anyway. But like, yeah, like what's it? I had that feeling today. Okay, just today. Just today. No, I had that feeling all the time. Yeah. No, it's, it's scary, right? Because like, you and I, we don't have a giant corporation and a legal team behind us and all this stuff. But I wanted to add something about like the podcasting being the perfect medium for this. And I don't know if you experience this. And I'll answer your question

later. But when you're planning a story, and I'm sure that this season that you're working on right now, you have a plan and then the podcast comes out and then the plan changes, right? And you find out that you're only halfway there, right? Because like because of the format and because you could put stuff out, you could react to it. Whereas in a book, you can't do that, right? You have to like wait to respond to the real-time events and in a podcast, you can just jump in there and discover new stories. But yeah, the whole sinking feeling in your stomach when you're approaching a story, that happens a lot. There was one time where I did a story about gangstockers and I actually talked to my wife about it. And I had actually produced all the episodes and

we listened to it and she goes, you know, I'm not comfortable. Because what happens of these gangstockers turn on me, right? Which most likely they would have. And I was like, you know what? I agree. But I'm just going to put it out there for my Patreon supporters. Nobody's going to find that, right? So I put it out on Patreon and we go on a family vacation, which I had said I was going to unplug. You know, I'm not going to like check my phone, but like halfway through the vacation. It was almost like White Lotus season three. I checked my phone. And it was just like, uh-oh. The gangstockers found it. They ripped up. All the episodes posted it on their little gangstocking online forum, and they were tearing me to shreds, calling me all kinds of bad name, doxing me.

They found my address. But then in that sinking feeling, oh, my God, like, what the hell did I just do? And then it kind of, they actually liked what I did eventually, and they backed off because it was so funny. They actually appreciated the coverage that I did on the, they thought I was fair. Initially, they did what they do, which is gangstock, and then they're like, actually, this guy harsh but fair. Wow. And then most recently, I covered a case, the LaDonna Humphrey case, which, boy, you know,

like usually when you cover a case, this is somebody's life, right? Even if they're bad people or like they've done bad things or whatever, they're people, right? And they have families and stuff like that. And, you know, most of the time when you cover somebody like that, they retreat. right but that's not what la donna humphrey did she uh went to war with me for a whole year and it's probably not over i mean she tried to take down my show people were coming to threatening to show up in my house they publish blogs about me with all kinds of terrible things they um oh my god i've spent like ten thousand dollars on legal fees you know it's just nuts she went all out war

wow and yeah this happens all the time but that when you have that feeling you're know that you're on to something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry you're, I'm sorry you're going through that. I expect knowing you that I probably won't deter you much. No, because actually, that's, I have to remind myself that that's the whole reason why I started this to begin with.

I mean, if I retreat, then who's going to hold these people accountable, right? Like, I'm the only one covering this case. Yeah. So. Yeah, no, I feel the same way. And, you know, yeah, I started off my entire show with a. big legal challenge from my sister. And I actually realized that I think in these cases in particular, although, you know, TBD for someone to really try for this to not be the case.

But I think what I have learned is that I think people who are really manipulative and who are deceptive, I think a lot of times they do thrive on silence. And that when you take that away, it often does sort of neutralize them more than you think. You're sort of expecting this huge pushback. And actually, they just, you know, make a little bit of noise and then maybe go away and then, you know, sort of start somewhere else. But it's an interesting experience. But I'm glad you guys are okay. That sounds really scary. Which was the gang socket? The whole thing. I mean, everything, yeah. Well, I had the same feeling this today about the story. I'm like, because every time somebody approaches me about a story, I'm thinking, what are they trying to get out of this,

right? Like, everybody has an axe to grind, even victims, right? Everybody, if you approach me with the story, I'm wondering, okay, what is your motivation, right? And I'm trying to play this thing out in my head. And I'm like, it's like taking a whack at a wasp nest. You know, you don't know early on what the heck you're going to get into. So, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So do most of your stories now come from people sort of self-referring to you? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. In the beginning, it was like finding the stories. And I still do that. But a lot of the good ones are people that just come to me. And it's more of a betting process now. Yeah. Then, yeah, I don't take every story that comes across my desk. But yeah.

Yeah. That's interesting. I think all of the stories we've covered so far, at least in depth on the seasons, have been like, I mean, fortunately, I have this amazing community with, the Absat committee, that that is where I get my cases. I mean, it can be very hard to do due diligence on these cases unless you have, unless you know there's been a police investigation or you know there's some kind of files. So you have to have like, you know, unfortunately just the way that things play out, even if someone's a survivor and they're telling

me a story and I completely believe them, like I have to be able to obviously corroborate everything. So that's kind of. You don't have access to medical records sometimes. Yeah. So that can be a hurdle. But also like, yeah, for that reason that you said, like, and I think with our show, it's like, yeah, I think people can have an ax to grind and that can be very understandable, right? It's like, well, I don't blame me for wanting some kind of, you know, revenge on this person or whatever. But it's not my, but it's not my job to carry your vendetta, right? Right, right. And also, like, I always worry that if someone's in that mindset, that they're just not going to have a good experience. Like, I always want the people who are telling me their story, which is very vulnerable and scary in its own right, to, like, have a good experience and hopefully have it be, like, a healing and positive experience.

And so if someone comes in and they're like really hoping to settle a score, I'm just like, I don't think this is going to accomplish what you want it to. And then I don't think that'll be a good experience for you. Yeah. So Javier, you brought us a story today about one of the cases that you've covered that's kind of way in the back catalog. So what can you tell us about the case that you brought us today? Actually, it's not as far back as it was just my last season.

but when I produced it, I've been wanting to talk to you about it because, you know, at face value, it does not seem like fictitious disorder or anything like that. I mean, it just seems like a very scandalous story, but I want to tell you about it and see what your opinion is. Get my read. Okay, and I'm going into this cold. So I will, I'll, we can put it on the munchaus an o meter and we'll see if it, if it registers. And sorry if that was a glib joke. I'm obviously not glib about the issue. I just, you know, have to get my puns in where I can. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, so it's season 21 of pretend. And it's a series called The Internet Saves the Bachelor. And so, yeah, The Bachelor from the ABC Bachelor, or at least one of them. His name is Clayton Eckerd. And I don't watch The Bachelor. And you don't even need to watch The Bachelor to get the story because what happens after he records that season of The Bachelor is way more scandalous, in my opinion, than what was broadcast on the show. Clayton Eckerd, he's

a stud, you know, this very handsome guy, goes on The Bachelor, does his season, it turns out that he's not even that popular, but Bachelor, he was kind of a jerk, he cheated on it on all the women, whatever, and so he's not a well-liked Yeah, the Bachelor, I feel like the Bachelor franchise, I

think I've watched a couple seasons from like way back when I used to watch it, like in the aughts, like with my roommates in New York, so it's been on the air for 100 years. I think increasingly it's become seen as a problem, problematic franchise for a lot of reasons. I'm proud to say that I've never watched The Bachelor,

not even for research for the series. I don't know that you should brag about that, Javier. Or Love Island. I haven't watched that either. Okay, yes. But I'm sure many of your listeners have watched some of The Bachelor here and there. So, you know. My listeners have.

All respect to The Bachelor listeners or Bachelor Watchers. Yeah. So what happens when you're done being a Bachelor, right? You have to go back to living a normal. life, right? You know, like, so Clayton Nekard, he goes, he lives in Arizona and he gets his realtor license, real estate license. I think there's a significant percentage of them, by the way, that that is what they do.

I think that, I think that former reality stars are like way overrepresented in the realtor population. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, his real estate career was kind of short-lived because I think it's his very first client, okay? is this woman named Laura Michelle Owens. Okay, and she's like the person that we're going to be talking about today. Laura Michelle Owens wants to buy a house.

He's showing her houses around Phoenix. And, well, they have a little romantic situation. Let's just say not to get through graphic, but there's no intercourse. Okay. They're just fooling around. And he's fooling around his first client. That's not. Very professional.

Great place to start. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, shortly after that, Laura Owens comes back and claims that she's pregnant with Clayton's twins, not just one kid, two kids, okay? She's pregnant with his twins, and he's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, this is impossible because we did not have intercourse, right? Like, that's how it works. That's what I've been told.

We're both parents on there. We know how it works. Yeah. Yeah. And she goes up to his house. she takes one of the she pees on a stick and sure enough the the test is positive all right uh they test another test they and it's positive it's positive and he's like how is this possible three pregnancy tests right uh but here's the thing there's no real doctor no ultrasound no blood work so he's just

kind of going on this news right but he doesn't believe it and he's demanding like proof right and to make a long story short. Laura Owens, you know, she goes as far as going to court, okay? Like, this becomes so crazy. It becomes this crazy paternity battle. They duke it out in court. And of course, this is like during COVID sometimes when you appeared in court, you couldn't appear in person. So it was like, oh, webcam. And you could clearly see Laura Owens is pregnant. She has like a big pregnancy belly. But in one of the shots, I guess you forgot. You know, she starts shifting her belly around. And at one point, she shows proof, right? She filed this paternity suit and he wants proof. So she shows him a sonogram. This is why I love the internet.

The internet found out they latched on to this case and were really helping Clayton Eckerd out because, you know, he hired an attorney, but a guy saying that he's not the father and going against a woman, you know, he's kind of. I've had a disadvantage there, but the internet helped them out. They were able to find out that that sonogram that she gave as evidence was actually Photoshop by, it had the Fiverr logo. She must have hired somebody on Fiverr to edit the details of the sonogram. And they were able to find the exact same sonogram on the internet. And she also made claims that she went to a Planned Parenthood in California, but she used the fake names.

So there's no plant parenthood records of this. Then even under oath, she told the judge that she was 24 weeks pregnant. And then suddenly she had a miscarriage. There's no evidence of the death or anything like that. And so the reason why I thought this was a good case, oh, she also had cancer at some point, where they actually removed one of her ovaries. Okay. And it turns out that this Clayton Eckerd was.

not the only person that she had made these false claims. She had made this false claim with two or three other guys. Same story. She was pregnant. It goes to court, but I guess it never went as far as the Clayton Neckard story, and not to ruin it or spoil it for everyone, but she is going to prison for this, or going to jail for these lies. And it was just an outrageous story that got completely out of control. But the reason why I thought, I wanted to talk to you about it was because people kept messaging me, hey, this sounds a lot like fictitious disorder where she's creating this fake medical scenario for attention. I mean, and just, I know I just told you the story cold, but what are your thoughts?

I mean, yeah, 100%. I mean, that, like, that whole series of events, like the obstetrical complications, alleged miscarriages of twin pregnancies because of cancer specifically. I mean, these are all things I've heard a bunch of times, and they just really fit the, it definitely fits the picture. It's hard to say, obviously, without, you know, couldn't confirm without knowing. But, I mean, and also the fact that she's done it to a bunch of different people. I mean, I just did an episode the other day with Sarah Treleven, who's done a lot of really interesting writing about, about Munchausen behavior. And she has a new podcast with the CBC, Caitlin's Baby, that's all about someone.

who was a serial fabricator of pregnancies and roped all of these doulas in to, you know. I was one of the first to cover that case, by the way. Oh, wow. That's broken. I've forgotten that you'd covered that case. No, but it's a very mind-blowing case. It is a mind-blowing case. And I think, so, I mean, that it certainly fits into it.

And I think people probably have a lot of the same questions about it. I have, now that you're mentioning it, I was like, I think I did hear about this because I think people were sending it to me also in being like, is this munchy? And I'm like, yes, it does sound. It does sound like that being here. And I think like that's why actually it's so helpful to recognize these as, you know, we get very hung up in my arena sometimes of like, oh, well, is this a discreet mental illness that like someone can be treated for and that we can diagnose someone with and then understand it sort of in that framework.

And I think it's much better understood as a behavior and as like an expression of, you know, whatever's going on with this person psychologically. but it's a pattern of behavior, right? So, and it's a really compulsive pattern of behavior. So that's like if, you know, and I'm sure if we scratched into the surface of this woman's life, there would be all kinds of other extraneous, you know, histories of deception, lying about illnesses, lying about other stuff. Like, I think a lot of people look at these situations and they're like, well, why, why did she do this? Was she trying to like shake this guy down? Was she trying to, and I think it's, I've come to understand it in a couple of ways. Like, number one, I think, the thing that has previously been zeroed in on is sort of this idea of they want attention

and sympathy. So it's like, you know, they're creating this big dramas. They're getting, but then you're like, well, but then people find out it's a lie and it's not, they're not going to be sympathetic once they realize the person's lying. But I think it is, number one, a very compulsive behavior. But I've also really come to understand it as a way that people look for power over another person, right? Because it's an abuse dynamic. And I think we need to understand it as an abuse dynamic. Right. They are choosing someone to victim eyes. So this unfortunate bachelor nation man, Clay, uh, found himself in this person's science, right? Um, and they are, you know, that sort of trying to fool someone, trying to take

their attention, trying to like get one over on them, trying to be the powerful person in the situation. I, I have come to believe that that's as much of a part of it as anything. And so I think that's why it expresses this self in like having to do with pregnancies. And right, it's like, and it's another one of these things where it's like, okay, most, women on earth, you know, most people who can become pregnant on earth would never lie about being pregnant, would never use that as a power tool. But someone who has this kind of makeup absolutely would, right? Because it's something people respond to and it's something that will get them in that position of power potentially. Yeah. And I think you're right because even early on

in the Clayton Eckerd case where she was very early on in her quote unquote pregnancy, see she was like hey listen i'll go get an abortion as long as you'll get back to together with me and this is all like documented with text messages so it was a manipulation tactic that she was using to i guess the motive right like people are like why did she do all this was it really because she was seeking his attention like she needed his like approval or love i don't know what it was but um he refused to play along and that's how she went from being only a few weeks pregnant to 24 weeks pregnant and you know it just got out of hand but I think that if he weren't the bachelor and she was just Laura Owens girl on the street and no one had ever covered

the story and the internet wouldn't have known about it it would be one thing but it was this attention seeking thing that happened because you know she would write blogs about it there's YouTube videos she's like fake crying in videos and and you know these big explanations for for all these situations and threatening lawsuits to anybody that covers the case and there's just the fact that she would continue the case for so long like this paternity case it must be costing her a fortune right so so this is a con artist case that she's not actually taking money from anybody she's actually spending money like a fortune to keep the charades going yeah and i mean it would be very interesting to know what the financial

that allowed her to do this are? Because, of course, what we see a lot in cases is you're like, well, God, like, how are these people even affording to do this? Like, so many people can't even afford basic health care. How are these people affording to go here, there, and everywhere? And it's like, well, because they're conning a lot of people out of money by, you know, it's like, they're getting money from family members or so she could have very easily been going to some, have it legal go fund me or have, you know, be telling everyone like, oh my gosh, this person, like, he's got me pregnant and he's abandoning me. And now I'm having to fight him in court. And he's this powerful person because he's famous and, you know, I need help. And so, you know, a lot of times

they're just committing a ton of financial fraud in order to continue their behavior. But I think, again, like, in the understanding that it's sort of about power and sort of a play for status in a way is like, that's why I think the medical thing, it's like pulling one over on doctors. I think there is, you know, the psychologist that I work with, like, think that that's a huge part of like just the thrill of pulling it over someone that's like more educated than you, you know, higher status than you. So I think it's like, it was. It was. It was. would make sense if she'd done this to other people and then she sort of chose a bigger target, right? Because then that's even more like, oh, I pulled one over on The Bachelor and then it got

to be this. And it's just like, I think the other thing about looking at these types of offenders is like, they're just such chaos agents and they're just such drama machines. And it's like they have to have that drama, drama, drama. So it's like, I think for most of us, we look at a situation like that and we're like, that sounds so stressful to go to court, be paying legal bills, to be getting all this like, you know, scrutiny online. But for them, it's like they're getting a need met by doing that. So it's like they're getting something out of that. Like, they're getting a thrill and they're like getting to sort of be in their happy place by having everyone run around and be in the midst of all this drama and causing chaos and causing pain to other people. And I mean,

I think it's like most of us would not want any of that. No, no. And I think that's what allows them to sort of hide so effectively a lot of the time. It's because they're co-opting what for the rest of us would be nightmare scenarios, right? Like getting pregnant by someone by accident and then having that person, you know, be in conflict with that person. And so it's like, that's just like someone goes, well, why would you want to do that? Or pretending that you have cancer or pretending that your child is sick. Like they're co-opting these things that are people's visceral fears. So someone goes, well, why would someone lie about that? Right. And because there's no financial motive necessarily, people sort of can't find a reason. And you have to sort of understand that these people are operating

on a completely different set of rules than you are. But as you kind of pointed to when you're talking about sort of narcissist and conradists, once you know the rules, like, then you can see it. My name is Manny Matney, creator of the number one global hit Murdoch Murders Podcast, the show that started it all. Now known as True Sunlight, my partner in True Crime, journalist Liz Ferrell and I are taking on new cases while still pursuing justice for those we met along the way.

Lunarshark Media's True Sunlight podcast values accuracy over-access journalism. True Sunlight shines with empathy, not exploitation. True Sunlight is the intersection of true crime, journalism, and systemic corruption. True Sunlight continues to shed light on Stephen Smith's case in the Murdox co-conspirators, but we also take deep dives into other cases around the country. From Grant and Gracie Solomon to Sarah Lynn Kalucci, Micah Miller, and Beyond. True Sunlight empowers listeners to understand their legal and judicial systems with our unique brand of pesky journalism. Listen to True Sunlight wherever you get your podcast or visit trussonlight.com to learn more.

Well, I'm curious what charges did they get her on ultimately? So yeah, this started out as a paternity case in family court. Okay, this is a civil thing, not criminal at all. But this just tells you how out of control this got that the judge in the paternity family court referred the case over to prosecutors in criminal court because of the perjury that she was committing on the stand. I mean, she was on the stand lying like through her teeth, right? And she was indicted for forgery, perjury, tampering with physical evidence.

I mean, investigators say that between May, 2003 and June 2024, Laura Owens altered ultrasound photos, fake pregnancy videos, and lied several times under oath. So that's how crazy this went from family court to now she has a mugshot and she's awaiting trial. That's so interesting because, you know, one of the big things that comes to the fore in these cases is like, what can you charge someone with? and there's a lot of lying you can do that is not now obviously you shouldn't be able to like lying should not be a criminal charge i don't think any of us wants to live in that world but like it can be very very tricky to actually fit any of this into a crime and it sounds like probably because this was such a high profile case the prosecutor was motivated to do something um because i think like every perpetrator of known is like done you know like fake ultrasound photos that i mean all of that you know so doing it doing it on the stand when you've taken Like, you know, if, yeah, like people, when we were covering this case, we're like, if this is not considered, you know, lying on their oath and like, what is, right? And so. So it's probably the reason that a lot of these women, even when they're in, go to trial, like, don't get put on the stand as me. Because I don't know. I don't know what they would. Her lawyer, funny enough, just got arrested for a DUI for drugs and alcohol. I mean, so she didn't have the best attorney. what a mess

I almost got her on my show I got him on my show and he's like yeah sure I'll let Laura talk to you and a couple days later she was indicted and so I was like crap I missed it by a couple days Wow Thank you for sharing that case

Yeah that was like I did get dredged up From my memory So hopefully Clayton is okay And maybe he's not going to be a realtor anymore Oh he has a new show Are you serious? I think so, yeah. Oh, no.

He'll be fine. He's turned out to be a good branding. It's like, oh, what a good. It's a good branding moment for him. It's like, oh, man, I think there's no such thing as bad publicity for someone who's a reality television star, so I guess. Well, but then you could say the same thing for a lot of these perpetrators, right? Like for Laura Owens, I don't think there was a thing as bad publicity.

I think she was eating it up. And that's actually one of the things that I struggle with. And I wonder if you struggle with that, too, because what we're doing is we're actually giving them more attention, you know, which is what they want. Like, do you ever think about that? Like, yeah, I mean, I certainly, even though it's negative. Yeah, I mean, I certainly do. And I think that's definitely a consideration when on the rare occasions when, well, I've only, I've only gotten one on the record, but like on the occasions when, you know, you have an opportunity to interview at perpetrator, like, are you going to be playing

into whatever narrative they want you to be a part of? And I certainly think with hope Yabara, you know, that she did think she could create some sympathy for herself, take control of the narrative. And, you know, I don't think that's what we presented. I think it was pretty clear that, you know, there was some interesting insight. She was a really interesting conversation to have, but I don't think it sort of absolved her of anything or made her look any more sympathetic. I think people were pretty, you know, having heard all the details of the case, I think people were pretty clear on who and what she was. I think it probably does feed some part of them to have a big drama around, like, you know, when I think about what sort of happened in the wake of this

story coming out, I'm sure that there is part of that. I've wondered with all these lawsuits because they love to try and, you know, a lot of times they get away with it and then they will go try and sue the doctors or CPS or whoever else. And I'm like, oh, I'm sure these lawsuits are like another big opportunity, kind of like in Laura's case, right, another big opportunity to get attention, sympathy, have a drama. But I think in our case, you know, whatever concern there is about that is outweighed by the utility of putting their name out there because in all of the cases we've covered that were not adjudicated, you know, my sister's case, season five, season six, those are people who are still living with vulnerable children. So having that in

out there is a protective mechanism. So I think, like, yeah, it just kind of gets out weighed by it. It's something to be really mindful of, right, that you cannot fall into their narrative. You know, I didn't get a chance to interview Lisa on the show, but I talked to her. We went to her doorstep. That's a little spoiler for those who I listened, but just to let you know that's where that's where it's going. Yes, with this season I did.

I didn't end up having a conversation with her. And I've realized that I cannot talk to them early in the process. I have to be at the end of my reporting because they're going to lie to me. And so I have to know when they're lying. And so I think it's really important to be like, well, actually, you know, push them on like, well, actually, that's not what happened. And I have the time fresh in my mind and I have all my due diligence and like you can't spin this conversation the way that you want it.

And I suspect that's why most of them don't want to sit down with me these days because I don't think, I think it's pretty obvious who I am. But yeah, I think it's definitely a worthwhile consideration. Yeah. No, I think about it all the time, but I think you're right. I think getting the word out and warning future victims is more important than they are obsessing about all the internet chatter about them, even though it's negative. And I know that some of the people that I cover get off on that negative attention. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, because that's what they, and they thrive on being the victim. And I know that their favorite thing to do is be the victim of something, right? And so now I'm like, now you're the victim of, now you're going to be the victim of me and this podcast, and it's going to be all my fault, right? So it's like you watch yourself sort of join this. There's always someone that's a scapegoat and it's like, you know, it's the expert who testified against them. It's the family member that turned them in. It's their ex-husband. It's the doctor

who, you know, caught the abuse. And then I'm like, I always know I'm going to be added to that list. So now I'm going to be, you know, the podcaster that ruined their life or whatever. So it's like, whoever tells the truth about them is the villain. So I always know I'm sort of like stepping in to that villain role. And like, you know, I'm fine with that, obviously. Yeah. Probably. It's obvious.

But I always have to make sure that I've done just the utmost due diligence, right? Because I can't let them, like, have any sort of like, I try. I just, it's like, that's why I'm so obsessive about getting every last detail that I possibly can have. So if I am in a situation where I get the opportunity to confront them with it, that I can just have my legally blonde moment, right, of being in the courtroom and happening to know that, you know, ammonium thyglocalate or whatever it was that, okay, you have seen that movie, right? I've seen that. I've seen that one. I have daughters. Yeah. Hey, listen, you are in a very female

genre. You have, you know, I'm sure you have a five percentage of female listener. It's like, you got to put some respect on the girls, Javier. This is girls media. True crime is girls media. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right, Javier. Well, where can everyone find you? You have eight years of your amazing podcast in the back catalog. So if you are going to, we are going to be dropping an episode of your newest season in the feed tomorrow. We have talked about also your seasons of the stalker, your season who's afraid of LaDonna Humphrey and our buddy Clayton and his misadventures with fake paternity scams. So we've talked about a couple of your seasons already. But if someone were like, I am not.

new to the world of Javier Leva, where would you have them start? Oh, yeah. And going back to when you quiz me on which season the stocker was, that's season 12, not 13. I would definitely start there. That's a fun one. The LaDonna Humphrey, who's the Ferda LaDonna Humphrey season? That's a good one, too. I think that's season 18. And yeah, I mean, you know, most of the time you could kind of pick and choose, jump around whatever sounds interesting to you guys, because I like to change things up for my own interest, right? Like, I don't want to cover the same thing all the time. So I also interviewed, I was invited to attend the cult in season three. I think you would enjoy that. Yeah, cult stuff I think will always be a hit

with this. That was one of those, remember the sinking feeling that you were telling me about? Oh, my God, going into that church, that was, wow. I am sort of as we, as we, as we talk about, oh, known for abusing men. Interesting. I'm like, I think there are some of these things that, like Javier can do that probably I wouldn't do because just, you could pass along on your crazies to me. That's fine. Well, I focus on, you know, and you're saying like, oh, I don't want to do the same thing all the time. The interesting thing is, obviously, we have a narrow area of focus on the show. We exclusively do munchaus in my proxy cases. And I remember when I set out, you know, I originally made the show as limited series. So that was the original conception. And then was like,

I think I want to do a second season. And then it's like, I want to do third. And kind of on from there. And I thought originally, I was like, well, this is a pretty nice. niche topic to do an entire ongoing podcast on and it's turned out that's just not the case because even though the pattern of abuse is so strong these stories are so singularly wild like there's always like surprises along the way and there's always like just I mean just the I think when you have and like this is where there's a big strong crossover with the two shows right it's like when you have someone who is a pathological liar their entire life is going to be bananas and you will just have people coming out of the woodwork with different versions of the story and

different sort of extraneous bad acts and like it just sort of these stories just go on they just sort of like expand and expand and expand and then you have to just figure out where you want to stop your reporting really well same thing I have a show called the Ponzi playbook and my agent told me she's like you know what all the Ponzi schemes are the same it's going to get boring and I'm like well maybe maybe it will get boring but every Ponzi scheme is exactly the same, except the people who are conducting it. There's a pastor who does, you know, a Ponzi scheme at his church. There's a guy that's selling cow manure for energy Ponzi scheme. There's a guy that's doing a watch Ponzi scheme. I mean, there's just so many different kinds

of Ponzi schemes. I mean, is America at this point a Ponzi scheme? That's something I got to know. The American Dream is a Ponzi scheme. American Dream feels like a Ponzi scheme right now. Well, on that hopeful note. Thank you so much for being with us, Javier. I'm so excited to have you as an official partner on True Story Media, and we will have to have you back. I feel like this is the first of many collapsed. You can't get rid of me.

All right, thank you, Andrew. I'm super stoked about being in True Story Media, so I can't wait to see what we create together. Me too. Nobody should believe Meek is produced and hosted by me. Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.