Nobody Should Believe Me - Unabridged Conversation with Hope Ybarra

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

Listen to an episode we're releasing from our subscriber vault -- Andrea's full conversation with Hope Ybarra, whose story we've been revisiting in our look back at season one of the show. This conversation gives listeners a peek into the mind of a perpetrator and inspired the name of the show "Nobody Should Believe Me". * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. unlocking something from our subscriber vault, which is my unabridged conversation with Hope Ybarra. This was and remains one of the strangest conversations that I've ever had in my life. And if you listen to the re-airing of our finale, you will have heard some of my reflections on this conversation there. But I am extremely grateful that I got to have this sit down with Hope. If you followed along with that season, you'll know there was a crazy amount of back and forth that led up to it where she agreed and then pulled out and agreed and pulled out several times. And I flew to Idaho with my producer really having no idea whether or not she would show up. Hope is an unpredictable character, if nothing else. Anyway, of course, she did show up. And, you know, as you'll hear in this conversation towards the end, I make an

offer to help Hope if she wants it, you know, to connect her with some of the professionals that you've heard on this show, people like Dr. Mary Sanders from Stanford, who we've spoken to several times and who has really been a pioneer in developing treatment protocols for people that have factitious disorder imposed on another. And part of the reason that it felt important to me to offer Hope this resource or any resources I could was because, as you can imagine, hope was functioning for me as kind of a stand-in for my sister. Since my sister maintains that she's never done anything wrong, I don't envision any scenario where I will get a chance to offer to help her. And so, did hope ever take me up on that? If you listen to this conversation, if you listen to

our finale, you'll know that she sounded enthusiastic about the idea. So this conversation happened now three years ago, and she did not. I never heard from Hope again after this. And you know, the truth is that like many perpetrators who do any media, who do any interviews after a conviction, they find this interesting way to toe a line between sounding like they're taking some accountability, but in reality, they're not. And Hope didn't really take accountability for her actions and i don't believe that she ever will i don't believe that most ever will and that is a challenge that we've talked to dr mary sanders and other professionals about is just that step one to any kind of

treatment to any kind of healing for a perpetrator to any kind of reunification with family members step one is accountability and most will never reach step one. So what I can tell you is I wanted to release this full conversation to share with everyone, even though this feels a little vulnerable for me because this was just a conversation where I was really in it, where I was really in the moment. But I think it's fascinating. It's fascinating for me to listen back to the whole thing because I recognize that this was a pretty life-changing moment for me like in this conversation while this was happening. I think that this conversation with Hope is the closest that I'm ever going to come to having some kind of closure about my relationship with my sister Megan. Not the situation itself,

because that is ongoing. I don't foresee having closure about that, but it did help me close a chapter and sort of move on to another one and move forward in a way that I don't know that I could have done without having the chance to sit down with hope. So if you are hearing this entire conversation for the first time, please do tell me what you think. I will be very interested to hear your reflections. If you are a new listener to our show, if you are a longtime listener to our show, I always love hearing from all of you. So just a reminder that subscribing to the show on Patreon or on Apple is a great way to support what we are doing here. And in addition to getting all episodes early and ad-free, you will get a ton of exclusive content.

We covered the entire Kowalski trial end-to-end. We watched the Gypsy Rose Blanchard Lifetime series together. And we are currently doing a deep dive into the Justina Pelletier case. So if any of those things are interesting to you, that is the place to find them. And as always, if monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show really helps as well as sharing it on social media. So without further ado, here we are in a little burger joint in Idaho. Well friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right

now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become

the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases? You are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGamingOntario. This is hard. I'm being really brave. What I would say to all of them is that I am so sorry for everything that I put them through. I was selfish. I love my family, especially my children, more than anything on this planet. And it was not fair, not right, that I put them through what I put them through, especially. She was lonely with my baby girl. And I have so much regret for hurting her and in the process hurting the other two as well.

And I destroyed what was a wonderful marriage doing it. And I was selfish. And I will carry that guilt for the rest of my life for hurting all of them, especially my family. They stood by my side for a long time. And there's not enough words to thank them for standing by my side and for loving me regardless. And now me and my sister are communicating, and that means so much to me.

She was always my best friend, and she's still standing by my side as my best friend. The rest of the family not ready yet, but Robin is still there, and I just hope one day the rest of the family will come around. Yeah, I mean, can you tell us, like, yeah, how are you doing? I'm doing well. I got a lot of therapy and counseling in prison. I did some bad things that

got there. I tried to kill myself and ended up going to a psychiatric facility. Spent a lot of time there. I got one-on-one counseling. I'm on medication now. I'm not getting counseling anymore. But I've come to terms with why I did what I did. So I'm really interested to hear about the process of getting that counseling because this is something I really want to focus on in the podcast, you know, is how people can get better. Because I think in order for, you know, is how people can get better. Because I think in order for, you know, you to be able to have a healthy relationship with your kids in particular, you know, that you have to be healthy yourself.

And I wonder, you know, what your experience was like with counseling and what you've come to understand about the why. I never got to that. What we worked through is mainly the depression, what led to me trying to kill myself. We worked a lot with my feelings, why I had the depression, why I didn't want to live anymore.

And most of the reason is because I felt like my family would never be back the way it was. And my family was everything. If I don't have my family, what do I have? So it wasn't worth living anymore. And there are days that I feel that way. But I have more faith and hope now that my family will come around. Robin has. Robin talks to me.

And that means so much. And she was always my best friend. And so we text quite often. and that means so much. And she was always my best friend. And so we text quite often. And I hope one day my dad will come around. He's the one that's not ready. And so I know I just got to give him time. Fabian talks to me, lets me know how the kids are doing. They're nearly all out of the house yet, so he doesn't have much oversight anymore. But my biggest

hope is that my kids one day see that I didn't do it to hurt them. I didn't do them to get away. I didn't do it because I don't love them. I did it because I didn't know better. I thought that's what I needed to do. When I got to prison and after I killed myself and got the therapy, I realized why I did it. And I realize now that that's not the way to do it. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Like you said, you began to understand why you did it. Now, do you mean the suicide attempt or do you mean why you... What you did to... Yeah. And, I mean, I've come to understand from just, you know, the sort of academic perspective, I guess, sort of what underlies that? And I wonder kind of like, you know, yeah, like what have your revelations about that been? Because I think that that might really help people understand better how things get to that point.

There's other ways to feel loved. I didn't feel loved. I had a wonderful husband. I had three wonderful kids. When was born premature, when people were gravitating and coming to see her and seeing how she's doing, I felt loved. And it kind of perpetuated from there. She was an early baby. And she spent quite a bit of time in the NICU. And so that's where it grew from. And it just, I didn't see another way to feel loved. I mean, that's just something that's internal,

something that I had to figure out. And then I had to see the bigger picture. That I'm loved regardless of how people act, how people, what people say, how people respond. I'm very emotional i'm very i respond to situations quickly um and so i'm able to slow down now um so like that kind of like an impulse type thing, like really sensitive plus impulse. Before, that's just how it was.

How I felt right away, that's just how it was. I look back now and realize, well, it was just a feeling. There's no proof. Where's the proof? And that's something that I've learned. Where's the proof? See why it, is it true or not? Where's the proof?

And if there's no evidence, there's no proof, then it's probably not true. I mean, something that really strikes me, and one of the things, you know, as I mean, something that really strikes me and one of the things, you know, as I said, watching your previous interviews, there are the questions that they, by and large, the questions they And you were, you know, describing in really similar language to what you just said at that party, you know, with all of those people there to celebrate you and celebrate your health, that you felt loved. And you said nobody wants to feel like an outcast. And that struck me so hard because especially the deeper I've gotten into this and talked to your dad and talked to your brother and sister, like, I'm like, that's not how anyone else in Hope's life would have described her. And I get that that's how you felt.

It's sort of that alone in a room full of people thing. And so I wonder, like, if you could go back to your younger self, you know, or, like, when you think about your younger self before, you know, the very beginning of these behaviors and, like, before it escalated to the, you know, stuff with the cancer and all of that, like, what would you say to your younger self? Look at the bigger picture. Look at the bigger picture. Stop looking within.

It's the look throughout. So just sort of like, do you feel like, do you get now the sense that your internal reality, like, did not match the external reality? Very much so. Very much so. The way I feel, a lot of time it's not true. It's false perception. Like when I tried to commit suicide, I had a lot to live for. But I felt like I had nothing worth living for.

But when I look back, and as I was on the way out on the gurney to the EMS, I realized at that moment, at that point I thought it was too late. Doing this is showing all those folks that I love that I'm not worth living for. Why the heck would I want to show them that? And that's what kept me from doing it. that's what kept me from doing it that's kept keeps me from doing it again yeah and if we can kind of like go back to that younger version of you where you were first starting to maybe have know, it's clear to me that you're just like a very sensitive person and that you feel things really deeply. I'm like, I'm that way too. I'm a novelist. Always have.

Always have. Okay, so like even when you were a kid, like, yeah, it's like that really sensitive person thing where you feel like, oh, things that not be be or seem like a big deal to someone else like to you run in of it now because he'll say something and then I perceive it as mean or ugly and I'll start crying and he'll feel bad and he doesn't mean it that way um he's the sweetest man and um he would never say nothing to hurt me. But when he says things, the way I perceive it a lot of times is not real. I just twist it, I guess, because I feel like I'm not worthy. And I've always felt that way.

I've always felt that way, that I'm not worthy. And there's a lot of times that I feel I'm not worthy of this wonderful man. And I tell him that. He is so good to me. As good as my ex was. And my big focus and part of my changing now I want to make sure that I don't ruin another relationship my marriage with Fabian was wonderful

and I don't want to destroy the one I have now because that would be I mean the guilt that I have not only with the kids but I hurt Fabian and his family as well. And it was not fair. And then I look now, if I could have changed anything, aside from not hurting the kids, I wouldn't have hurt the man who was standing by my side through everything.

But I did. And he did what he needed to do, walked away. I'm going to make sure that I don't make that mistake again. Because I've got another one, and he's by my side. He takes good care of me. He looks out for me just like Fabian did. And I want to make sure that I don't make that mistake again. Yeah.

Your family had some very sweet things to say about you. Do you want to hear one? Do you want to hear what your sister said? She's my best friend. She was just one of the sweetest people I've ever met. She's wonderful. She's my best friend. Well, I can play for you some sound. I think you'll like it.

And Nick also had some really sweet things to say. Really? I'm surprised. They have really good memories of you. And I think that's, you know, for me, I have really good memories of my sister too, even after everything that happened. It's one of the hardest things to reconcile sometimes. Should I go ask if we can? So Hope was the oldest of the hardest things to reconcile sometimes. So Hope was the oldest of the four of us. So she was kind of, when mom was gone or dad was gone, she was kind of the adult in the house,

which was always kind of interesting because she was a bit of a wild one sometimes. But we were really, really close, especially as I got into high school. And that's really where my relationship with Hope had grown a lot because she was the first person in my family that had gone to college. She did really well. She was doing well in her life, and it was kind of an inspiration for me. So when she had her oldest kid, she was still in college, and so I spent a lot of time. We got to go out and see her and kind of see what that life was like.

And so it was kind of inspiring to me. She was someone I wanted to kind of be like. So Nick is saying that he was very inspired by you and that he looked up to you, that he looked up to you and he was very inspired by you and you taught him something that he still remembers today. Through something similar to what she did. So I had talked to her a lot.

We would talk pretty frequently about, you know, what she accomplished, how she did it, what I needed to do in my point in life to kind of have the same thing. And so I would say that was really kind of a turning point for her and I to be a lot closer. And I think that was a really cool moment. She and I had talked even when she came back um you know she was the person I was going to rely on when I was in school when I was in college she was going to help pay for books and she made me a promise as long as I was passing my classes she was going to pay for books and all these other things and I never forgot that and still to this day it's like seemed like she

was someone who was always kind of a fun person um she I remember at times when we were growing up where you know she was just really kind of the life of the party she was life of the party really good at everything she did she's one of those people where like no matter what she put her mind to whether it was band or just talking to people like it was always like she was really good at it she is someone that everyone would kind of just kind of gravitate to so that was always really interesting because everyone gravitated i'll never forget like just high school band for example i think she was the drum major she went to solera state out and uh way west texas for band and stuff like that and she was really good out there and so every time i talked to her about something she's like yeah i'm doing this and i'm so good at this and this is why and mom and dad were always really

proud so it's like hey how do i get to be that right it's kind of that same thing like she was inspiring i guess is the right way to put it. She was inspiring. I remember one time I was in school and I was just really struggling. I was like, I don't want to do this. How do I get my brain wrapped around it? I can. It's just not challenging.

It's not fun. And I call her and I'm like, hey, what do I do? And I was like, I don't. How do you do this? She was in college at this time. I was still in high school. Maybe in middle school even. I guess the gap is there.

And she said, sometimes you don't have to want to do it it's just once you get it done think about what you get to do after and I was like okay so as long as I get it done and it's always kind of sat with me get the stuff done that I don't want to do first and then you get to do the fun stuff or the more entertaining stuff and so that's one of those memories like I don't know where she came up with this all wise moment all of a sudden uh but it's something that it's like, okay, this is the way to do it. And, I mean, I manage a team of eight people now, and I tell them that. It's like, I know you don't want to do this. Just get this done and then go do the other stuff that you actually enjoy.

Hopefully they take that a little bit and actually run with it, but I'll never forget that part of it. It's just still stuck with me, what, 25, 20 years later or so. That's good advice. So he was saying that you gave him advice that he still uses with his team now he just so looked up to you and you were the first person and you know your family to go to college and he wanted to be like you and be as successful as you were how does that feel to hear that as you were.

How does that feel to hear that? Yeah. I can send you that just so that you know it's there. You gotta have a lot. He always did so good. It's strange that he did good because he looked up to me. It seemed like he always just did good on his own. You were his example. Well, I wanted to be a veterinarian. Oh, you know, I graduated high school. I did okay.

Nick did wonderful. He always did great in school. Went to college, majored in chemistry. But I ended up having ****. I couldn't put a halt on continuing education. But I had my degree. I went to work so I could go to Fabian, and he got his master's so he could stay there with me because that way I could graduate.

And that's why he continued. We had. And so he could stay out there and have fun with me. And then we both graduated. We both went and got jobs. And it's just, you know, once you have a kid, that's what you got to do. Got to work, go to work, take care of your kid. And I didn't want to struggle like mom did early before she went to college they had you guys young very early and I didn't I didn't want to struggle like that with and so baby and I both graduated got our degrees and got out and got good jobs and baby has always worked always been a provider sounds like you worked really hard too yeah good or good job you know a couple good jobs yeah yeah

yeah you know and everyone like you know that was pretty representative of what everyone said about you. You know, just that you were really fun and really smart and like life of the party. I'm so surprised because that's not the way I felt. Most of the time I felt like the loner. I enjoy being with people. I'm a people person. But I don't feel like, obviously, like the center of anything. And now I'm okay with that. At the time, for a long time, you know, I was not popular in high school. I was not. By high school. I was not.

By any stretch of the imagination. I had friends. But who didn't? And so because, you know, I was going through, you know, adolescence and all that, and because I was going through, you know, adolescence and all that. And because I was not popular, there was a lot that I felt like I was missing out on. And when I got towards the end of high school, I always knew I wanted to be a veterinarian. Of course, those plans kind of got interrupted.

And that's okay because I have three wonderful children. And let me tell you what, I would take those kids over a career any minute. But, I mean, you also had a career. You're almost describing it like you sort of underachieved, but, I mean, you also had a career like you're almost describing it like you sort of underachieved. But I mean, you didn't you got your degree and you had good, well-paying jobs. I mean, I think that's what and I totally understand that it doesn't always matter what it looks like from the outside versus what it feels like from the inside. But I mean, you know, for at least a period of time you know you were working and you were like involved in the community and you had your kids and you were I mean you were doing a lot

like you were doing a lot so you were you were yeah and I mean do you feel like that was part of maybe what added to the stress very possible very possible. I put too much on my own shoulders. Yeah. Yeah. Because one thing that I've wondered in looking back through my sister's pattern of like when these behaviors started to emerge, when they got really bad,

it seems like that sort of stress level getting really high, that it was almost as though she was doing some of those behaviors to like get some kind of relief. Is that something that resonates with you at all? Do you feel like? That's interesting. I don't think so. That's interesting. I don't think so.

You don't think so? I don't think so. So for you, you've kind of... But I don't know. That's just a... That's an interesting thought. I don't think so. What brings her joy now? Yeah.

Yeah, so, I mean, back to kind of, like, where you're at now. You know, so you've told us a lot about your wonderful boyfriend, and, you know, you found a good situation here, and you've told us about Kobe, right? Yeah, your wonderful savior in Husky. So, you know, what else are you, you're about to start a new job at Walmart. Like, what else are you doing now? Like, what makes you happy now? What makes you happy now?

What brings you joy now? Right now, being with him. That's what makes me happy. He is what makes me happy. Really? Yeah. He's very affectionate. Very much a caregiver like me.

So we take care of each other. Not a day goes by that he doesn't tell me something sweet or special. Like if I sometimes he falls asleep watching TV, if I put his tray up he'll tell me how much he appreciates that I took care of his tray. To me it's nature. It's just what I do.

And he makes sure that I know how much I appreciate it. He constantly tells me, like today, he told me how beautiful I looked because I wanted to dress nice today, and I don't ever. I meant to say that earlier. And I don't ever wear this. I got it in Texas, and I've only worn it once. And that was from my job at a real Walmart. And he told me how nice I look.

And it's, I mean, I'm not one for looking good. I don't spend a lot of time on makeup, obviously. Don't spend a lot of time on my hair. I need a haircut. It's hair, though. It's very long. It's time for a haircut. Time for a haircut.

Yeah, I haven't cut my hair since I got locked up. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's quite long now. Yeah. Down to my butt. Yeah. It's time for a haircut. Need to cut the dead ends off. But yeah I don't know I've always had short hair and so now this is like whoa. Yeah and very heavy. Very heavy up. Very different. Yeah. And very heavy. Very heavy. Very thick hair, so it's very heavy. Yeah, it looks nice long, though.

Well, appreciate it. Maybe you'd go like a little, like, you know, a little shoulder length or something. I don't know what I'm going to do. I need to cut the dead ends off for sure. He loves the long hair, so I'll probably keep the long hair. That's something that I've learned. And what I destroyed in my marriage is that whatever relationship I have, that we have to work together, make each other happy. And I didn't do that with my marriage. And that's why he walks by me.

What do you want people to know about you? Like maybe in particular things that have, you've been written about a lot. And I wanted to keep this podcast from being a thing about you, not with you. And so now that we have you are with us, what do you want people to know about Hope? That I'm an individual. I have feelings. And that I love an individual. I have feelings. And that I love my family, especially my children, more than anything on this planet. Regardless of what I've done and the choices that I've made, I love my family.

That's what I want people to know. That regardless of what I've done, I love my family so very, very much, especially my children. And what do you... What do you hope for going forward? Like, what do you want... What do you want your life to look like in five years, in ten years?

I want restoration of my family. And what do you... I mean, so I guess I want to say to you, you know, as I said on our text message chain, you know, I hope that having this conversation will help you and that meeting me will help you. And I want to help you in any other way that I can, genuinely, because I care about your family. Because I care about your family and it would be better for them, I think, to have some kind of reconciliation. And again, obviously, like they're going to all handle that in their own individual way. I have worked with a lot.

I'm working with, you know, because of the effect that this has had on my personal life and because I have this public forum of having the book and everything else, you know, I've become a member of the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy Committee. So I know a lot of experts. the, you know, what sort of goes on in these cases and what genuine like healing and restoration can look like. And it can happen. And it takes a lot, a lot of work. You know, the thing that you're living with, that you have been living with all these years, which has taken such a toll on your life. And I see it. I mean, I see it. Like, I see the human being in you separate from the choices that you've made. And I think it's really important for other people to see that, too.

I really do. And I don't think that we should write you or anyone else who's had the same pattern of behaviors. I don't think it should be written off and like, oh, that person just should never talk to their family again. You know, I think sometimes that's the way it turns out. And sometimes that's the best way you know forward but you know I have now talked to like you know a friend of mine Mary Sanders who we interviewed for the podcast is the foremost expert in the world on helping women like you figure out a way forward and you know it's a but it's a lot of work you know it's means taking you know a full accountability and sort of working through these steps I mean it's almost a sort of um almost like an Alcoholics Anonymous sort of like you know thing um but she's had success and it's been

extraordinary talking to her about what that can look like on the other side you know it probably wouldn't look like what you might have hoped when you were younger that your relationship with your family you know there's no way that these events are not going to take a toll but you know if you wanted to put in that work mean, I'm happy to help connect you to some folks that can help you do that. And to me, that is, you know, a really necessary part of like you being, you know, healthy enough to, to have that relationship with your kids that you want, that's going to be good for them. You know, you've said to me over and over again that you don't want to hurt your family anymore. You were worried about doing an interview because you didn't want to, you know, compound the damage and that kind of thing. And I think that, like,

there is a way for you to do that. It's going to be a heavy lift, you know? I mean, I think that's been a new revelation for me that that is even possible. You know, you were in prison for 10 years. You've lost your whole family. Like you, I have no, there's no question of you having suffered consequences. So I also just wanted to come here today to tell you that like, if that is something that you are interested in, if that is something that you are willing to do, then it can be done. It will be a difficult process and it will take a lot of work on your part, you know? I don't, I don't skirt or walk away from hard work. Never have, never will. Which is part of why the successes that I had, I did have. Yeah. Because I worked hard for it. I'm not one to walk away for anything from hard work.

Not a problem. And if it means that my family can come back together, I'll do whatever I can do to make it happen. Because the family that I know, I don't have right now. That makes my day-to-day a little difficult.

And whenever, if the time comes for us, I want my family to be there. I've found a wonderful man, and I'd really love for my father to meet him because my father is German as well, and I think the two of them would get along very well. But, you know, my daddy's not ready yet. That's okay. it's okay and i think i mean this is you know i think this is something that you would all the whole group of you you know would need to like something that i've seen with my own family right because? Because it affects everybody, right? It's like, obviously,

the kids are the biggest thing, but then it's like, you know, siblings, like, it was really moving and like cathartic and wonderful for me to sit down with Robin and Nick, because they understand a lot better than anybody else I've ever talked to, you know, and like, and your dad and, you know, everybody deals with their own separate thing with it, right? And so I think you always have to be prepared for people to deal with it on their terms, you know, and that, like, it's not going to be like, oh, the family as a unit is going to, like, accept or not accept. Like, I mean, even, obviously, you're experiencing that right now. Like, Robin is more open than the others. I think I just completely lost my train of thought.

I'm sure it was going to be something profound. I think that where you're going is probably like that. Oh, sorry. I didn't remember. We don't know how this is going to turn out, but there is beauty and wonderful things on the other end of your willingness to be as open as you have been there is and I believe that whatever it's going to end up looking like we don't know

but I think given the fact that Andrea does have resources and that you have a open heart and a willingness to figure this whole thing out is remarkable yeah one nothing more and I mean it's you know the people that I work with on the committee and Mary Sanders is the one that I've been talking about um you know she's been working on this for 40 years and she has a tremendous amount of empathy and a tremendous amount of curiosity you know like about what are those things that happened in your internal world that made it feel like doing destructive things to get the attention and love that you needed was the only option and like I don't say that with judgment I say that like understanding that that's like a really

difficult place to be and I think we want to help families like yours heal and that's going to be on everybody's own terms but I think that like it's something that's going to require I mean from what we've heard from from the people that are that have been able to get treatment, you know, a pretty lifelong effort, you know, in terms of like staying on track, staying on track with it. You know, but if you're willing to do that, I mean, I would want that for your family too. I would want your dad to have some peace with it. I would want, you know, Robin and Nick to be able to have, and your kids and Fabian. And, I mean, I think, like, I think that would be better for everybody, you know? I do.

I mean, what else? Like, what else do you... What do you think people... Are there things that you think people have the wrong idea about you that you would like to sort of correct the score on? Or either you or people who are in a similar situation. What do you think people get from that? Based on the results of my other interviews,

they put total focus that I'm an attention seeker. And I'm not. That's the last thing I am. So what were you? So what do you think you were seeking? Was it more like love and acceptance? I wanted to feel loved. You wanted to feel loved. You wanted to feel loved.

That was it. And so when you were... I wasn't looking for the attention to be focused on me. I just wanted to feel loved, and I didn't, and I don't know why. I had a wonderful family. I had a wonderful husband. Wonderful children. I don't know why I didn't feel loved.

I just wanted to feel loved, that was all. And I did what I did, I'm guessing, because it made me feel loved. And like I said, it started when was born early. So I want to ask you about that because I certainly understand where that behavior, sort of pattern of behaviors really kind of took off around that time. But of course, there were incidents before that. Um, you know, and, and again, I, I, it's not that I want to make you relive the details, but I just, again, I'm really just looking for insight. Um, you know, in terms of the, the cancer, do you have any sense of what of of what kicked off that situation or like where you know that played into what you were needing at the time um just help us is there anything

that you have an insight on no because I think one of the big things that I the reason I asked that question again not to just make you relive bad times um because I think that maybe one of the keys to helping families is to be able to catch things earlier. Like, I'm wondering, you know, at what point could, like, okay, for instance, I think back on, you know, after what happened with my sister happened, I thought back on, like, my parents and I sat together and thought, oh, this thing, oh, God, this thing. And we sort of saw this whole, like, chain of events going back to when she was at least a teenager and for my parents, I think, even far beyond. And I could see then in retrospect things escalating. And so I think one of the biggest, I don't even know if I'd call it a regret because we didn't really know what we were dealing with.

So I don't know what we would have done differently. But I wish I'd known. I wish I'd had a name for it. Because I wonder, is there a moment when we could have, you know, when she was 16, when she was 23, when she was sort of these different, you know, incidents that we can point back to. Like, is there a moment when we could have said, you're clearly going through something. You're clearly doing some destructive things to get what you need,

to get your emotional needs met. Like, I think that's a better way to say it, right, than getting attention. It's not attention like, look at me, like Instagram. You know, it's like, right, and I think sometimes actually that sometimes, and I think sometimes actually that like, we give attention seeking, like a bad rap, like human beings need attention. We are designed that way. Like we need attention from each other. We need, we're a social species, right? It's like actually wanting attention is like why most people do most things. Like that's actually, if you boil it right down to it but that said I mean I think it's like getting like your emotional needs met right like you said acceptance love those things like I wish

that I could have seen those behaviors as sort of these cries for help that they were and it's clear that those were cries for help now in terms of like my sister is not getting her emotional needs met she does not feel loved she does not feel accepted she feels alone all of those things that you've described to me today I wish that I could have seen those seemingly bizarre behaviors as oh this is a symptom of what she's feeling on the inside. And then like gotten to her, helped her, helped her address what she was feeling. And I just wonder, I mean, do you think looking back now with all you know, with your vantage point,

like was there a moment, you know, before was born, like before all of that, when like some of these feelings really started to manifest for you and like what could someone have done this episode is brought to you by samsung galaxy ever captured a great night video only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker with audio erase on the new samsung galaxy s25 ultra you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions and that's not all. New Galaxy AI features like NowBrief will give you personalized insights based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what.

Pre-order the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. I want to tell you about a show I love, Truer Crime from Cilicia Stanton. My favorite true crime shows are the ones where I feel like the creator has a real stake in what they're talking about, and this is definitely the case with Cilicia, who got interested in covering crime because, like many of us in this genre, she experienced it. In each episode of the show, Cilicia brings a personal, deeply insightful lens to the crime that she covers, whether it's a famous case like the Manson murders or Jonestown, or a lesser-known case that needs to be heard, like the story of a modern lynching. She covers these stories with a fresh and thoughtful lens, helping listeners understand not just the case itself, but why it matters to our understanding of the world. Her long-awaited

second season is airing now, and the first season is ready to binge. So go check out True or Crime with Cilicia Stanton wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeich, Schmeich's and Bog. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the Wild West, y'all. And these experiences are

what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024, zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this

time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay that you don't have the answers.

I think I mostly needed to ask the question. I don't know. It makes me really... It makes me sad to think about you and all that pain. And sometimes it's even more isolating when everyone perceives that you're doing just fine. Yeah. It's nice that everybody thinks I'm doing just fine. Because I have support now. And he knows.

He knows. And so I like that my family thinks I'm doing just fine. Because if they asked, I don't think I would tell them the truth. And that's not something I want to do anymore. So I'm glad they don't ask. Because he sees, he knows. If something's wrong, it's like he reads me, like a book. And it's simple things.

If I'm sad, he knows. If I'm mad, he knows. If my blood sugar is low, he knows before I know. And that's... It's nice. It's real nice. And I wish I would have seen what I had when I had it. Because I know without a doubt that it was there as well.

Just from a different perspective, I didn't see it. But after going through what I've gone through and meeting with counselors and seeing what the source of the behaviors was or could have been, now at the back side backside I can see. See the truth. What do you think the truth is? That I am loved. Regardless of what my life looks like or how I feel, I am loved.

And that's why what you say to me means so much to what my family said. You have no idea the impact those words have on me. Because I miss my family. I miss all of them. My family. My internal family, my kids. Maybe I miss my ex, even though family, my kids.

Maybe I miss my ex, even though he's an ex. And he still, I mean, goes above and beyond to try to help me out whenever he can. And he loved me. That's not something

he should be doing. But he does. He's a sweet man. He is a phenomenal father. I couldn't have picked a better father for my children. And he's done it all alone. Because of my stupid decisions. He's had to do it all alone.

And I know that's some hard work. And he was most of the time helping me financially when I was locked up until the divorce became final. Always put money on my books. Right me. Had the kids right me. And I mean, what else could I ask for after everything I did? My entire family is phenomenal.

I wish one thing I could change would be go back and change what I did. So they would have never broken apart to begin with. I mean, is there anything else that you want to say to them, to any of them, to your dad or your siblings? Just that I love them. I know I didn't show it. My exes showed how much I didn't love them, but that's not why I did it. It wasn't because of them. It wasn't their fault.

And then my biggest regret of all my decisions is that my family is not together like it used to be. How much my parents lost because of me is not fair, not right. I mean, I think something that, you know, Robin and I talked about this a lot, like that sometimes it can feel really hard to reconcile all of these good memories that she has with you and that I have with my sister with like kind of, you know, what happened after. But I think it's kind of helpful to think of things in chapters, right? So, like, you heard Nick talking about all his, you know, memories of you from how he looked up to you when he was younger. And you obviously have a lot of good memories of your family from before all of this. And I think it's like you can have those things.

And then you can acknowledge the bad things that happened and this bad time for you of being in prison and being in such a dark place that you tried to take your own life. And that's its own chapter. And now we're here. And now we move forward, right? Yeah. And that's what I've done. That's what I've done. That's what I've done. When I came to terms with my family,

may not ever be like it was. Part of why I moved here. This was a new start. Fresh start. Good start. Real good start. Good start. A real good start. It's hard sometimes. I don't think it'll ever be easy.

But I've helped get through day to day. And I need the death. Just one kind of like final question, if we can. If someone else, if another mom, finds herself where you were, in this sort of situation where she feels like the only way that she can feel loved and accepted is to be in the position of having a sick child. I've got an answer. Look outside the box.

Look outside the box. Don't look internal. Because you Look outside the box. Don't look internal because you are loved regardless. It may not feel that way but you are. You don't want to wait till you get to the other side of a bad decision to be able to see it. Look inside the, not outside. Don't wait until it's too late. Because that's what I did. And what do you think...

What do you think someone should do to do that? Should they tell someone they love how they're feeling? Yeah. Like, if you could go back and, like, grab your hand, you know, right in the middle of that what would you say to hope like what would you tell hope to do like go tell fabian you're feeling this way go tell your dad go tell i mean what would you say i wouldn't have told baby because he's he he he don't do emotions but i would have told my family I would have told my family. You would have told your family. I would have told my family. I would have told my mom. Like reach out.

Reach out. I would have told my mother. Yeah, because I know she would have... She would have helped you. She would have. She would have. If she couldn't help, she would have found the right help. Yeah.

But I would have told my mom. I wish I could go back and tell my sister that. I wish I would have had a chance to tell my mom. I'll never be able to. I'm really sorry for your mom. I mean, same feeling. I'll never be able to. I'm really sorry about your mom. I mean, same feeling. I'll never have a chance. I should have reached out if I had a chance. She passed away when I was in prison. Totally unexpected.

I'll never have a chance. And I had a great mom. A wonderful father. A wonderful family. And I should have looked outside the box, not inside. And asked for help. I should have let mom know how I was was feeling because she would have helped me. I shouldn't have kept it to myself

and just thought how I felt was the way it was. Yeah. Like your emotions or your reality. Yeah. If there was a bigger picture and my mom would have showed me that picture, I know she would. I mean, I hope...

And I really think that you're going to help people by saying that. I really do. Because I think, like, what nobody has managed to do and what has been missing from all of the coverage of all of these cases, you know, you just see these words on them, like, oh, monster. You know, and it's like, as a person who's feeling those things, and it's like, that's the thing you need to address. And like, I just think that if people don't feel like they can come forward and say, I feel like I'm doing this because I'm not, like, help me not do this thing. Like, people need to be able to not have such a huge shame and stigma around feeling the way that you were feeling. Like, it's the action that was the wrong thing, not the feeling. And I think if we stigmatize the feeling and make it this monstrous thing, then that will make it more likely to happen, not less likely.

Like, people need to be able to go to a doctor or a therapist or hopefully their mom if they have a great mom like you did, you know. And that's the thing, I guess, what breaks my heart is, like, my sister could have, she could have said that to us. My God, we loved her. We would have done anything for her. She could have come to us. And, like, there's part of me that's, like, that's all I ever wanted

was for her to just say, like, please help me stop. And there's part of me that, like, I don I ever wanted was to her to just say like please help me stop and there's part of me that like I don't think this is likely like part of me with this podcast almost hopes that like I'll put this out there and she'll say I'm tired of doing this I want to come home please help me I don't think that'll happen but like it... It's a wish. It's a wish. It's a wish. Wonderful. It would be. I'm not going to like totally hold my breath for that one, but you know, but... It's a nice wish. Yeah.

I hold just like a tiny space. You know, and I... Don't wait until it's too late. I mean, I... We're not talking because that's her choice, not mine. So, you know, um, and it's always seemed so sad to me because like we are, my parents are wonderful too. You know, we have just, just like your family. And I, I, you know, I hope that someday when they're of age, I'll be able to kind of like, in some like, in some ways, I'm in a parallel situation to you, right?

Like, you're hoping to be able to, like, have another chapter with your kids, and I'm hoping to be able to have another chapter with my niece and nephew. And neither of us knows if we'll get that. But we just have to try. Just gotta keep the prayers lifted and be patient. I feel grateful to you for taking this time with us.

I know this was not easy. I hope you feel good about our conversation. I hope that helped you a little bit. It was worth me hearing what my family said. That made it all worth to know. There's more. I'll send it to you. There's more. We can send you the other ones from Robin and your dad too. To know what they're saying.

To know how they feel. That alone made it worthwhile. Because even to this morning, I wouldn't actually say it. Thank you. Thank you. But at this point, I made a i don't i don't back out and i'm really grateful to you for trusting me with this i mean i really like hope what you said at the end about looking outside instead of looking inside and that's that's an insight that we and trust me i have read just every freaking thing i have not heard that perspective anywhere else and you're really smart people

people who are in your situation they don't talk about it i mean for all the reasons that you can probably relate to right yeah it's not easy to talk about. Well, and the hardest thing about talking about it is having to admit that you've done wrong. Yeah. To accept that you've messed up. And that's the hardest thing about talking about it. Yeah. You have to face the facts.

Yeah. And then eight years into my imprisonment, I still hadn't faced the facts. It wasn't until I'd given up on myself and my family that I was kind of forced to face the facts. Because the facility I went to was a psychiatric facility for people like me. It's called Skyview. Skyview? Uh-huh. And people that hurt themselves or try to hurt themselves or want to hurt themselves, they go to that facility.

It's strictly psychiatric, strictly. You have groups every day, five days a week. So you're a counselor quite often. You have to address the issues. You're pretty much forced to. I mean, you have a choice. You can either go to group or not go to group, but eventually you get kicked out of the program.

At that point, I had already tried to hurt myself. And then had the guilt of giving up on my kids, because that's what I felt like I had done, giving up on my kids after I did that. And that's what keeps me from doing it again. There's a lot of days where I feel like it's not worth living anymore. Then I remember, you've got to be strong for those kids. Whether they know it or not, it doesn't matter.

I've got to be strong enough for those kids. If I kill myself, it's showing my kids that I don't love them enough to try. And that's what I thought the minute that they put me in that stretcher. And I don't, and that's not the truth. I do love my kids enough to try. Regardless of what I've done, regardless of what they know, regardless of what they believe. I love them more than this entire planet. And I believe one day, one day,

I'll want that relationship with Mama again. And I'll keep being strong every day until that day comes because I'm still their Mama regardless. And nothing can take that away if it's 10 years away yeah and I mean you know how do you think you prepare yourself for those eventual conversations I mean if your kids have questions, if they have, you know... I've got to be honest.

I've got to be honest. Whatever they ask, I've got to be honest. The things that I've had to face myself, especially in Skyview, I need to let them know that. Let them know what I've worked through there. Let them know what I've realized since I've gotten out. Because there was a lot of help there, but it wasn't all therapeutic.

There's a lot of things that I've learned in that I've had to face in reality, in real life now. I've got to tell the kids all of that. And do you think that you'll be able to kind of have a relationship with them like on their terms? It'll have to be. It'll have to be. That's not an option. It's going to have to be on their terms and it'll have to be it'll have to be that's not an option that's not it's gonna have to be on their terms that's gonna be that have to be that way with my entire family um I lost my terms I broke that when I hurt them I lost my terms it's gonna be have to be on their terms I mean I think it's I think it, it seems like you're, you know, starting off on a good foot with that.

You know, something that we hear from survivors a lot is that their parent just never, never admits to what they did. Even if they have been to prison. Like there are, you know, there's people sitting in prison now that just say they still saw a mistake, etc. So that's a good, it's a hard thing and it's a good place to start. And I was like that for three quarters of my incarceration. Like I said, it wasn't until I went to the psychiatric facility until I had to face the facts. And my mom had written me a letter and told me until I accept what I've done and why I did it, I wasn't going to get better.

I was so mad at mom. That's the truth, wasn't it? Yeah. I was so mad. I had written her a nice letter, and she responded with that letter. Yeah. And I was offended because I felt like she was coming out of left field. Well, I can probably give you some insight.

You may have figured this all out already, but I can probably give you some insight into where she was coming from. I think, you know, with my own sister, as I said, there was like a lot of things that led up to that break. And one of the most frustrating things was that she wouldn't ever and even if you can't undo it or make it better just to have someone say you're not crazy I did that thing is a relief and if you don't get that accounting if you don't get that person looking you in the eye and saying I did that thing here's you know why I can try and saying, I did that thing. Here's, you know, why I can try and explain why I did it. And I'm sorry. That just like, you can't really like move on from there. And what happened with my sister was weak. She kept doing things that were very destructive.

You know, she had a false, a faked pregnancy with twin girls and lost it really late in the pregnancy. And I completely believed that she was pregnant. It turned out she never was. And she just never addressed it. We continued our relationship after that. But she just never, like, we knew we put it together that it wasn't true. And then she sort of was like, yeah, I was just really upset about this. And then just like acted like it never happened. So for me, it was like, but it did happen. And I spent months of my life being really upset about

it. And now it's like, I'm just supposed to pretend it never happened. And because I loved her and because I wanted to continue a relationship with her, I just let it go. Or I tried to let it go. And then something else happened and something else happened and I got more scared. And then her son was born and I got more scared and more scared and more scared. And she was just never being honest with me. And so it's like you get, it reaches a point where you just think like, if I can't have any honest accounting, I can't just keep acting like things are okay. Because then you start to feel like you're crazy. You start to feel like, wait, did that happen? Am I making that up? Was I confused about that? And it just really messes with your head, you know? So at some point, like you kind

of just have to like cut through it to be able to have any bond with that person. Otherwise, you're just sort of handling them. Otherwise, which was what my relationship with my sister was in the end we were just trying to like we were on pins and needles all the time because we knew that like she could tell us it was raining outside and we'd be like you know and and that's you can't really have a relationship with someone when they're doing that you know like does that does that kind of resonate with you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

I was really glad that your mom and dad stayed together. Me too. It seems like they really, really love each other. Yeah. My mom and dad are wonderful. I just wish I had a chance to reconcile my relationship with my mother before she left. What would you want to say to her? Sorry? Yeah.

Sounds like she was a really good mother. Yeah. I just never got a chance. And I wrote, one of our projects in prison was to write a forgiveness letter to somebody that we've hurt who was in a class called Changes. And we had to write a letter to somebody that we've hurt in the past and ask for their forgiveness. The class was basically for getting off drugs and alcohol. But this particular project,

we were facing people that we've hurt in the process of doing the things that we did. All the classes that I took while I was there, I took voluntarily. I didn't have anything on what's called an ITP, individual treatment plan. Basically, my time consisted of sit on your butt and do your time. Because I didn't do drugs. I didn't do alcohol. I didn't do all this stuff.

So I didn't have to take GED because I already had, you know, education. So I had nothing. and I was getting bored. So I signed up for every single class I could get into because it was boring sitting in the dorm all day. And I ended up taking a bunch of classes. I got OSHA certified. I got carpenter certified. Things that I'll never use.

But it was something to do. And I got tired of sitting in the dorm with all the drama all day. It was really crazy. But in the changes class. One of the things that we learned is that one of our projects was to write a forgiveness letter to people that we've hurt in the past. The letter I wrote was to my mother. And I sent that, but I don't know if she ever got it. And I hope she did. Because I fessed up and asked her to please forgive me for hurting her. Because I know she's the one that I hurt the most. But I sent that

very close to the time that she passed away. So I don't know that she got it. Yeah, but I did it. And regardless whether she got it or not, I know she saw it. Yeah. It's really interesting, actually, that you mentioned that you were, you know, taking these. So you said changes was in, that was an addiction program? It was about changing lifestyle behaviors was the core curriculum. Okay. Because, you know, one of the things that's come up a lot in the research is that it actually really functions like an addiction. And you kind of talked about some of those like internal thinking and that impulse control kind of thing. And I think that that's like a really helpful connection

for people to make, because I think it's like that sort of sense of like not being so much in control of the behavior. I think that's really important for people to understand. So did some of that kind of language around that addiction stuff resonate with you a little bit or no? It was kind of a different. The class itself didn't help me at all. Just that one piece of it. It was just, there were some things that I saw at that time, at that, when I was taking that class, I hadn't really faced my reality yet. And so when I was taking the class, I didn't see the connection. It was afterwards that I thought,

you know what? When I was at Skyview, I'd be like, when my counselor would tell me that, I was like, oh yeah, I've learned that in changes. Yeah, I'd look back and go, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. These two are saying the same thing. It must be true. Yeah. It was. Some of the classes I took were real good at learning things. I took parenting. And at that point, I knew that I wasn't going to have a chance to parent my children anymore.

But I took it anyway. That was the first class I took was parenting. Because I felt like I could learn stuff in there to help me be a better mother here on out. Even just, yeah, from afar. Yeah. I took parenting. I took changes. OSHA, took five different classes.

I don't remember the others, but those three are really the only reason I remember OSHA is because of the OSHA certificate. What is OSHA? Occupational, safe, and healthy health. Occupational, safety, and health. Safety in the workplace. Oh, okay. It's mainly construction. Okay.

Well, there you go. If you become a carpenter, then you're good. Like I'm going to work construction. But it was a class that had an opening, so I got in it. And that's how I did it. I signed up for everything. I took two in the chapel. One was Kairos.

The other one... Two more classes in the chapel. All the other classes were held in education. But, yeah, I originally signed up for all this stuff because I was bored. Yeah. I didn't have nothing to do. You know, people are going to school in the bored. I didn't have nothing to do. You know, people are going to school in the morning,

I'm sitting in my butt going, what's boring in here? You know, most people worked. I didn't work. I was medically unassigned. So I didn't have to work. But a lot of times I wish I could but because of my different diagnosis I couldn't work the warden worked medically and assigned me um so are you do you think you would be open to

finding a counselor to see here yeah because I could sort of envision like you know um, if you were to, you know, be able to find someone to talk to on a regular basis here, you know, I can certainly connect them with, you know, Mary and of the specifics so that you don't have to explain everything from scratch. Because I think that that's really exhausting to try and explain this to people that don't have any context. And I'm on Medicaid. I am on Medicaid. Yeah. I'm on the whole Medicaid. Is there anything I can do to help you?

I mean, I'm happy to, like, help, you know, make those connections. Not really. Just let me know, okay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've got got wonderful support now that's good real blessed yeah that's great glad you have each other very glad wonderful man very glad wonderful man i'm really blessed yeah do we need to get us um i'm just yeah the last thing I need, like a little business keeping is to get your permission. Because I didn't, yeah, we have a permission slip with us, so

can you just say I'm Hopi Bara, I give you permission to... You're going by Butcher. Oh, you're going by Butcher now, that's right. Sorry, oh, that's right. Sorry, your full name, just say your full name and that you give this person to use this on this podcast. Okay. Yeah, I'm Hope Allison Butcher and I give you permission to use this on this podcast yeah

i hope allison butcher and i give you permission to use whatever's on this recording for whatever means you need to use it thank you miss really like you know it means more to me than it can and it's gonna mean a lot to a lot of people if you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film,

or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. Schmeichel and Bach. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators, doing the work, and making thoughtful survivor-centric shows.

And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life And traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there Britney is back in 2025 with brand new episodes This time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience If you love Nobody Should Believe Me

I think you will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.