Nobody Should Believe Me - Unabridged interview with Patrick (son of Dr. Sally Smith)

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

In this bonus episode you’ll hear host Andrea Dunlop's full interview with Dr. Sally Smith’s son, Patrick. They discuss the impact of the slanted and sensationalized media coverage of Dr. Sally Smith’s work on him and his family. Patrick shares his pride in his mother's career as well as fears over the impact of the media coverage and the verdict in the Kowalski case.   The full unbridged interview with Dr. Sally Smith will be available to subscribers.   In the meantime, we are hard at work on season 4, stay tuned and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.   *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com   Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at [phone]  Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop  Buy Andrea’s books here.  Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here.  ***  Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media. Smith's son. You know, the biggest surprise of this season was that I got the opportunity to interview Dr. Sally Smith, and it happened because of Patrick. He reached out to me early on in our season, and so it was really fascinating to get to sit down and connect with Patrick and just talk to him more about who his mom actually is and what this whole experience has been like for his family. And of course, I also got to interview his mother, Dr. Sally Smith, and we are going to be sharing the unabridged version of that conversation, but that one is going to be subscriber only. So if you want to listen to that, go ahead and check us out on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. In the meantime, here is my conversation with Patrick. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is

boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show. I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered

how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.

Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy.

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straight onto the gridiron and to embrace peak sports action. Visit BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older. Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Well, it's so good to see you. So I just wanted to start with, how did you find the podcast? And because you reached out to me, I got a voicemail from you. This was, gosh, this was a few months ago, probably now, a couple months ago. So how did you find the podcast and what compelled you to reach out?

Yeah, at the time that the Netflix film came out that sort of launched this whole story into a more, into the public discourse, a good friend of mine shared the podcast with me. And this was at a time when the dialogue was pretty one-sided about the whole case and about sort of what my mom did, both in her usual role and in this case specifically. So, and the podcast immediately stood out to me as specifically the episode of you

and some of your guest hosts responding to the film that stood out to me as a really measured and critical take as in a lot of critical thinking was applied to the claims made in the film. So yeah, I mean, the work kind of spoke for itself. Well, I really appreciate that. And I mean, obviously, I, so I wanted to interview Dr. Sally Smith from the beginning of starting on this project, probably before that, because I'd read even about her in some other stories. And this was the

interview that I thought I was never going to get this season. I just thought, I think I put in a request through the communications folks from Johns Hopkins, but I was like, there's no way she is ever talking to the media again. You know, she did the one interview with New York Magazine and they just did her so dirty, in my opinion. And so I was shocked when I heard from you. And I mean, given how your mom's been treated in the media, I mean, did that feel risky even reaching out to me? It felt really risky. I, at the time, was, I think we had received harassment online. We were concerned about people actually coming to her house. And, you know, we have that fear even now my family does about any sort of media um contact and so it took two to three weeks i think before i even started to consider the idea of reaching out

to you all um the um yeah the um The, yeah, the, I don't know what else to say beyond that. It was after I had started to see some of your further coverage on the case and then also looking into your coverage of past medical child abuse cases that knowing what my mother had been through with other interviews, I really started to think that this was a really rare chance to talk to someone who would really consider all the aspects of the story and not simply the parts that can be kind of sensationalized. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I was super honored to hear from you guys. And I'm really interested to know, I assume, you know, you and I have been talking back and forth for a couple of months, and I've had a kind of series of conversations. And yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I feel sort of, I think we feel a bit of a bond because there's just so few people that it seems like are understanding what's happening here.

And it can make you feel like you're losing your mind a little bit. And I really appreciated being able took some convincing to get your mom to be open to the idea of talking to a podcaster. And I mean, I'm curious what you and I had had a few phone calls. I think we'd had two phone calls at the point that I opened the idea up to her. And she was really hesitant at first, I think, you know, rightfully so. And it was only after I shared podcasts with her that had discussions with Carol Jenny and with sort of other people in the field that she really looks up to and respects and that have gone through a similar experience as she has.

And, um, and I am, you know, I'm kind of a podcast junkie or at least I was, I think, um, this, this last, uh, this last few months has kind of, uh, broken my brain a little bit and, um, kind of changed my ability to consume anything. And so, so I'd say at least used to be. And, and I remember talking to my mom and telling her like, you know, I've listened to a lot of different shows. And, and I said like this one is it's different or at least it's in, you know, the high, high tier of like doing your homework and, um, documenting the sources and claims. And, um, and it was through that combination

of sort of my, um, I guess, experienced consuming of podcasting and my take on it to her, plus her just listening to some of those curated episodes and getting a sense of the kind of work that you all do. Yeah. Say a little bit more about what you just said when you said that these last few months have broken your brain a little bit when it comes to consuming media, because I think I, I think, I think I'm going through something similar. So tell me what you, tell me what you mean when you say that. Well, um, it has been a gradual process that has kind of, um, worn us down, us being, um, you know, my, my mom and her family. Um, this all started, uh, a few, well, you know, it started in what, July or so, or it just started in the summer when the film came out. And, um, at the time I was working, um, really, uh, on the other side of the world, um, in a pretty remote

area. And so, um, and doing a job where I actually used to listen to podcasts a lot, like one, you know, a lot of people do just like one headphone in and, um, and I would go out into this, when I would go out for a day of work, I'd be out of cell range and I would just have these almost like anxiety attacks during work thinking about, you know, I knew that my mom was being doxxed, harassed, identified that people were talking about coming to wires kind of get crossed in your brain when you're worrying about something that's that intense. And, um, and I listened to various hot take episodes on the film just to see what people were saying. And it was just one after the other, people saying, like, this woman deserves to anything from go to jail to die. And, yeah, it created, I think, like, the association in my brain is now with, like, a fair amount of stress with any sort of coverage of this case.

And then also sort of the format of podcasting has been kind of um distorted for me now but yeah yeah I can I can see that and I think you know it's so personal and visceral for you I think this was what you know and it's it's on such a more muted level because I think there are these varying you know degrees here where like, I remember what it felt like to see that Mike Hickson bog piece in the paper and in our, you know, in our local paper and on our local TV station. And that was a national story, but I mean, it's not the level of tens of millions of people watching a Netflix film and then sort of

this whole cottage industry of people, you know, covering that case because of that. I mean, obviously I'm included there, but, you know, I just remember feeling like, yeah, like this really deep sense of betrayal and, you know, just injustice at how wrong they'd gotten it. And it was a very similar thing to what, you know, formula wise to what's happened to your mom, where they picked on the doctor and she got harassed. She got, you know, a ton of blowback, really reputation got dragged for the mud. They dug up a few other families that were mad at her and just use the same exact formula. And could she say anything? Nope, because nobody had signed a HIPAA release. So, you know, and in that case, like I knew about that case, I feel very strongly that that doctor's actions probably saved my

niece's life. And to watch her go through that was totally devastating. And so you've been through that, but like amplified by, you know, a huge factor in terms of that being your mom, who's the person directly being criticized. And just like, yeah, I mean, the online vitriol against her, and it sounds like some of which is translated into real life, is like nothing I've, like almost like nothing I've ever seen. So I'm just, I really, yeah, I just, I really feel for you um so I want to just back up um assuming that you watched the movie yes I did um I mean what was your did you know much about it going in were you I mean what yeah what mean, what was your experience of watching the movie? Well, you know, I was aware that this case had happened, obviously.

The pieces had been written in the Sarasota Herald Tribune before. And those had prompted some questions from me to my mom about like, I mean, starting from the point of, you know, are you doing okay? This was before it had been picked up by Netflix. But I think both because of how seriously my mother takes the sort of privacy of this whole topic. And I think just the nature of our relationship and how we can discuss things.

I have always kind of understood that, you know, I have to respect that boundary as something that she can't talk about. And so up to the point of the film being released, I had no idea who, you know, any of the details of the case or who the family was. Though I was roughly aware of sort of the medical child abuse analysis that she had done and that this was one of the more alarming cases that she had encountered in her career. So that was the extent of what I knew about the case before the film came out. And just knowing how my mom sort of approaches like the, you know, critical thinking and, um, sort of like the

scientific aspect of her work. Um, I could pretty quickly see the way that the film was, um, edited and the way that they presented their story, that it was really not presenting it from that, um, with, with that kind of frame of mind. But, um, but I did still kind of, I tried to maintain some respect for that, the sort of the privacy that the, that everybody in these cases deserves, the families, you know, most of all, and the children that are affected. you say that and having spoken to your mom hearing her talk about it that same way and even seeing you know the back and forth she you know sent me the email with Liz Boyd who's the fact checker for New York Magazine and seeing how seriously she takes the privacy of the families as a whole, and specifically, of course, of the kids. And that, to me, has been one of the points of real dissonance in watching the actions of the people who are right now positioning themselves as Maya's advocates, as Maya Kowalski's advocates, Jack Kowalski, her father, and Gregory Anderson, the lead attorney, their actions have demolished any hope that this young woman ever has of privacy. in a position to relive their worst traumas over and over and over again for their entire teenage years and going forward to however, who knows how long, because there's this legal case is nowhere

near from over. And even when that's over, the reverberations of it have been their defining years. And to see that behavior contrasted with the medical professionals involved, even understanding that there's like a legal issue of HIPAA and all that stuff, but just like, I can tell that's something that your mom really takes seriously just as a value. And to look at that in contrast to the way that this has been turned by the by the other side by the plaintiff side into a pop culture story is really um yeah dissonant to say to say the least um so yeah i i i can see that so if we can just like back up from the whole recent events, I'd love to know just what your mom, what your mom was like as a mom growing up, you know, how, how you, how you

know her. Um, well, I think that everyone who in our, you know, sort of nuclear family, as well as just everyone in her life, would say she's like a caretaker personality type, if that makes sense. She, I think, to the point that it, like, you know, irritates me and my sibling. If we ask my mom what she wants to do, where she wants to go out to eat or something, it's like she is just solely focused on what would make other people happy. And I have... You know, I think that everybody thinks that their mother is special, but like, I, um, truly like think that the amount of like happiness she created in our,

our lives when we were young kids, it's like, it's kind of, um, I mean, it just, it's hard to describe. And she was this, she's, um, she's warm. She's not stern. She's like, um, just pays attention to needs that you don't really realize that you have in the moment. And then, but then at the same time, growing up with her, like my sister and I were, I think, aware from like relatively early age, the sort of work that she did. And so it was interesting to grow up in her household and in all of our one-on-one interactions or interactions as a family, she's just, she's, um, warm and caring. And then she has to do this job where you have to actually kind of turn off part of your, um, I think the emotion parts of your brain, she would just work these like late hours into the night.

Remember our dining table not being a dining table. Instead, it was covered in like that was her office that she would work in. And I just remember her working there into the like late at night and working on these topics that are just kid had like, you know, fallen two stories out of a building or something. But in fact, it's related to a parent that couldn't control their emotions. I think a lot of people have, I've actually seen the speculation about like clips taken from her deposition where she seems robotic or something.

And I mean, it's weird to see that so prominently displayed when it's such a tiny part of her day-to-day life and not a part of her personality. It's more that I think you have to have this ability to separate the warmth and caring that would motivate you to be a pediatrician from the job that forces you to face some of the darkest parts of human nature. Yeah. I mean, that's so well said. And it, it is, it's a quality that I feel like, you know, there's, there's two other child abuse

pediatricians that I've gotten to know pretty well. Dr. Carol Jenny, and then Dr. Jamie Kaufman, who we've had on the show a bunch. And I mean, I think it's a real, like there is just a real specific quality. Again, it's that not very many people have. I mean, I think it's just one of those jobs you either sort of are designed for or not, where you have, you know, the ability to like, yeah, to look that, yeah, the darkest element that like most of us couldn't, would be haunted by a day in that job, you know, let alone decades. And, yes, your mom cracked us all up when she said that her sister called her before she went down to testify and reminded her about her resting bitch face. And that just cracked me up because I also, yeah, have seen some of that commentary.

And, you know, number one, she's giving a deposition to Gregory Anderson, you know, for many, many hours on the stand. And I do not want to know what my face would look like if I had to be giving him a deposition for 20 minutes. But, you know, yeah, we have this real, I mean, there's a real misogyny here that, like, if a woman has a serious look on her face a woman who's in a serious role who's on the stand like I don't know what people exactly want her face to look like under those circumstances because it would be deranged if she was smiling during that um but yeah I mean we we do we do judge women that way and um and yeah I mean I I think that that sort of selective editing that happened in the film in particular was pretty notable. I'm interested to know when you said, you know, I think it's always really funny to, like, ask kids what they think their parents do for a living. I famously told someone when they asked me what my dad did for a living that he didn't actually do much.

He just told other people what to do, which, you know, I kind of stand by that, but I'm kidding. But like, did you, like with, that's obviously like, you know, there's obviously got to be like a lot of sort of age appropriate moments of explaining that kind of work. Like, do you, do you remember like what, you know, like, do you remember kind of what the process of understanding what your mom did for a living was like? So I have been trying to reconstruct this recently. I mean, since this all has been thrust so fully into under a spotlight. it. And I think the point where I knew where she worked was because when I got old enough to, to notice the times when she had to leave at weird hours, you know, and like, you know, if she wasn't there for dinner and you start to ask like, where's mom, you know,

and my dad would, would just tell us like, oh's mom, you know? Um, and my dad, uh, would, would just tell us like, oh, she had to go to child protection team. And it was like a word, you know, like when you're a kid, sometimes words mash together and you just think child protection team, like that you think it's like one word. It's like a place. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's, it's a name, you know, it's like Publix or something. Um, so I, that was when I kind of became aware of it. And then it must've been, you know, that would have been like five or six years old. And then I started to put together that those words are separate and mean something. And then, um, I remember I must've been around 10 or maybe nine or 10. And I remember asking my sister about a phone call that my mom

had had to take. And I didn't understand some of the words that she said, you know, I mean, like she would take these calls privately, but sometimes, you know, you overhear snippets. And I asked my sister what blood in the stool meant. And my sister who's, you know, close to three years older than me, I think, you know, picked up more than I could and told me that, you know, that, that just rather matter of fact, that that's what happens when someone's been beaten to the point that they're bleeding inside.

And then it all kind of clicked, you know, what her job was. And so, yeah, and one of my sister listens to this. I don't even know if she remembers that. That was the moment where I knew what my mom did. And then from that point forward, it's been pretty matter of fact when people ask what my mom does, I think just because of the seriousness, the seriousness with which she does her job. And, and I think the conviction that she is like displays that like, this is the right, that it's the right thing for her to do with her life is to protect kids. And so I've actually like for years been quite proud when people ask like,

what do your parents do? I'm like, Oh, my mom works for child protective services. And, and basically I tell people, yeah, you know, like, have you ever thought about like, there must be someone out there who has to medically assess a kid after they've been abused? And they're usually like, oh, yeah, I guess that that does make sense. But that's a thing that has to be done. Yeah, well, that's what that's what my mom does. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that you're deeply proud of your mom. Yeah. I think everybody is proud of their parents, you know, for the job that they do.

I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true once you get to adulthood. I think as a child, you idolize your parents, but I mean, you are just, you're, I think, early 30s, right? I mean, you are an adult. So, like, the fact that I think, I think, and I know I'm a parent. I have two little kids. And I think if your kids admire you by the, if they still admire you, if they admire you when they're kids, no big deal. You're a god in their world.

They don't have any reference points. But if they admire you still when they're in their 30s, then I think that that says you've done a really good job as a parent, to be totally frank. I think most people have figured out that their, you know, people figure out that their parents are human beings as they're growing up. So I think actually that's not always, that's not even maybe frequently the case that people are still really proud of their parents by the time they're adults. I'll say this about sort of my adult, my respect for her and everything she does now that I'm an adult is, my job is that I'm a scientist and I am motivated by our sort of a family saying, which isn't unique to our family, but just that they they're in the typical stiff upper lip sort of Midwest,

I don't know, Protestant vibe of, um, from those who have much, much as expected. And, um, and I actually, it's funny as a kid, I, I rolled my eyes at that and now I kind of believe it. And I think that my, um, you know, I, I, I became a scientist because I wanted to, and I'm still striving toward this. I haven't achieved it yet. I want to do something that, um, that protects the environment in a way that, um, will, will, you know, benefit the kids that I hope to have and the, you know, future generations. And

I think that when I was a teenager, I had the same sort of emotional motivation that I actually wanted to be a pediatrician, right? I thought about it really seriously to the point that I volunteered at a children's hospital. And I realized, and I realized I couldn't pack it. Like I couldn't deal with the, with seeing kids struggling with some of the things that they were dealing with. And, um, and so in that sense, I, I can't be anything but proud of her because I, I think of it like she takes this, um,

same motivation that all of us have in our family and does it in a way that not everyone can handle. You know, protecting kids from something as hard to... I don't ever want to demonize any parents who are in these situations where they have to deal with, you know, a case plan and stuff. But so I'm not, I don't, I would never call any of this like heinous or anything like that, but you know, it's, um, you're, I think she does a job that requires this, um, level of like poise and focus on like what is really important, which is, you know, the welfare of kids with a discipline that I can't replicate, you know, and I've tried.

And so that's a big part of why I continue to just deeply respect the work that she does. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, I think, part of what is going on here in this discourse is, you know, something that I've really observed with my own work over the last few years as I've gotten into, you know, work related to child abuse is that, and I by no means could ever do the job that your mom does. Like I, I think I've, I've built up a tolerance for the work that I do, but I, that to me would be to see that kind of suffering in children to see. And yeah, I mean, I really

appreciate that you are not using that kind of language that demonizes people who abuse their children, because I think that, like, that is not necessarily helpful. But those acts are certainly heinous, right? And to understand that people are capable of that and to really have to look that in the face is hard. It's hard to think of what people are capable of. And that's something that I encounter all the time with that just disbelief about specifically the kind of abuse we talk about. But I think it's, you know, with medical child abuse, but I think it's true of all child abuse where people don't want to look at it. And I think sometimes we resent people that make us look at it. And I think that's part of, certainly not the whole explanation, but I think that's part of what, part of the sort of constellation of things that came together against your mom.

And, you know, I think people that are willing to look at it are so brave. You know, I got a message from someone, and I can't remember, it was either about some comment I'd made about your mom or some comment I'd made about, or some interview with Dr. Kaufman or just kind of about child abuse pediatricians. And they said to me, you know, you should really look at whether or not those people are feeling pressure to come up with a lot of positive findings so that they can keep their jobs. And I just thought, do you live in a world where so few children are abused that someone has to drum up cases? Like this is not a job anyone wants to exist. It's a job that has to exist. And there are those people that are brave enough to do it. And I just,

like, I was like, I just thought that's amazing to me that someone could sort of do the math in that way, I guess, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary, I think, how naive sometimes people are. So I want to tell you about a show I love, Truer Crime from Cilicia Stanton. My favorite true crime shows are the ones where I feel like the creator has a real stake in what they're talking about. And this is definitely the case with Cilicia, who got interested in covering crime because, like many of us in this genre, she experienced it. In each episode of the show, Cilicia brings a personal, deeply insightful lens to the crime that she covers, whether it's a famous case like the Manson murders or Jonestown, or a lesser-known case that needs to be heard, like the story of a modern lynching. She covers these stories with a fresh and thoughtful lens,

helping listeners understand not just the case itself, but why it matters to our understanding of the world. Her long-awaited second season is airing now, and the first season is ready to binge. So go check out Truer Crime with Cilicia Stanton wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all. And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators doing the work and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows.

And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you will also love

You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes. Yeah, I mean, so you come from actually like a line of medical professionals. So your grandfather was a neurosurgeon. Is that right? That's right. Yeah.

So yeah, so that's my grandfather actually was a surgeon as well. So yeah, so I was going to ask you if you considered that a career, but you did answer that already. Yeah. So I'd love if you could just sort of tell us a little bit more about what your mom is like as a family person. I know, and again, if you don't want to say this, I think she might've mentioned it, but I know you have a grandma? Um, my mom, um, like she restructured her, you know, her work schedule around, um, being able to spend weekly time with him, which, uh, you know, I'm immensely jealous of in some ways. I live far away from my nephew and I wish I could see him every week. But, gosh, she...

I mean, she dedicates herself to these, like, you know, elaborate costumes after he watches a Pixar film and wants to, you know elaborate costumes after he watches a Pixar film and wants to um you know uh play a you know play a lead character with with grandma there to you know be the sidekick um she okay so is your mom crafty is she like is she a crafty mom my mom mom is really crafty. I think she made my sister a full dolphin costume when my sister was like four or five. Like with, you know, her combination of sewing and probably plastering and stuff. I mean, she's, yeah, I think she's actually getting to relive this really sort of glorious first few years of, you know, caring for a kid during their first few years when they're like immensely curious and exploratory.

And, but, you know, need a guiding hand so they don't go, you know, jumping into a lake full of alligators or something like she um yeah i mean i the um she's just like sort of effortlessly dedicated that to that kid to the point that like i think my um my sister and her brother-in-law or my brother-in-law who you know one of my very best friends like I think they actually have to like sometimes be like we need we need a day without grandma you know um uh and um yeah uh you know the kids at that age have this like immense energy and fixation on the same topics over and over and over again. And like, she is just sort of tirelessly enthusiastic about all the same things that he's enthusiastic about.

And so, yeah, I mean, it's really nice to have that reminder of how to be a parent to a young kid when I'm approaching that, you know, stage in my life where we're hoping to have, have kids. And so,

um, yeah, just as a, a sort of a perfect little role model reminder of how you, how you do that. That's amazing. I feel like, um, my mom was also a prolific and amazing maker of Halloween costumes. And, um, so I have a five-year-old and an 18-month-old and, you know, Halloween just happened as we're talking. And I had the realization to myself that that was a piece of my childhood I would probably not be reliving because I was like, oh, I, you know, I'm sorry, kid, you're probably getting Halloween costumes from Amazon because I, the time it takes to put together like the idea that your mom was doing this job and was the elaborate Halloween costume maker I mean that's

that's some that's some gold medal parenting right there um but yeah I mean I I really like I can just see like on your face when you're talking about your mom like you know I think it's such a gift right to have parents like that and to be at this stage in your life when you're becoming a parent yourself or thinking about becoming a parent like that you're really lucky if you get to look at your parents and being like oh they they're they're showing they're modeling good like I want to be like them yeah yeah and and I think that she continues to be a role model in other in other ways and how you have adult relationships. I think one of the things that really struck me was she doesn't seem bitter about what's happened. I think she seems justifiably angry about, but it seems to me that she's more angry I don't know like not that she hasn't taken it

personally but she doesn't have this sort of like I mean if I had been made the villain of a Netflix movie that tens of millions of people saw and had dealt with half of the things she's dealt with I would feel uh pretty angry and bitter and personally aggrieved. And I didn't see that with her. And I was sort of amazed by that. I just thought like, how could you go through this kind of, you know, this kind of public experience is like the stuff of nightmares. And I really didn't see evidence of that. Well, I think part of what keeps her perspective stable is that her work has always been in and around Pinellas County. There have been various, you know, stories that try to tally up how many cases she has dealt with she has dealt with, um, you know, somewhere around like

3000 cases and people love to, uh, certain angry internet groups love to say that, well, that's like 3000 people that have, you know, had their family torn apart. And I can tell you that probably part of the reason why she's not better is because she's had a lot of kids reach out to her who have grown up and said, you know, I, what, you know, what can you say about like, thanks for probably saving my life. And, you know, I think with that in mind, I think this is a, a small blip relative to all the times that she's heard, you know, you know, young adults, people who are like finally out on their own and have gotten free of some sort of abusive or neglectful situation.

Um, and tell her that, you know, that they actually have some sort of future, um, because of that intervention. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm not surprised that she, um, you know, I sure, I bet there's a lot of, uh, you know, just negative feelings toward Greg Anderson, people that took this as a... I think she can probably join the club there. Yeah, sorry. I think there's... That's the only people that she feels negatively towards. I mean, you know, as much as in my discussions with her

since that film came out, like we've, I'm always, I try to be really respectful of, um, like I said, of like the families, the struggle that the family has gone through. Like, I mean, I can't imagine growing up or with this hanging over your head or dealing with this situation, but like, I think like every conversation I have with my mom, even after being dragged through the mud by, you know, a Netflix film, like she ends those conversations talking about like her worry about what those kids will go through as they become young adults.

And I'm not surprised that that's how she ends the conversation because that's like what her motivation has always been. I really thought, you know, as I've been metabolizing this conversation for the last week and a half, I just thought like, you know, there's something to be said about like true character being like, you're going to do the right thing thing even if everyone hates you for it. And you're going to stand by those actions because you know it was the right thing. And that's really what I got from your mom.

And, like, that is, I'm like, okay, I, I mean, I feel like you're, honestly, like, I'm not, like, I, your mom is a role model for me now. I mean, I just, I, like, I admire her so much. And I think like whatever, you know, I think sometimes people have taken her certainty about what her work is to be arrogance. And I did not. Talking to her for three hours, I've had numerous conversations with her since then. Like, I don't, I don't see it. And I mean, I'm also from a medical family. Like, I'm a woman who's gone to the doctor many times.

Like, I understand doctors can be extremely arrogant. Like, it's not that that archetype doesn't exist, but I think her certainty is that she believes in the facts and she believes in her training and that she has a great conviction about what her work means. I mean, that's what I observe. She didn't seem real, I don't know, I guess it's just so straight. She didn't seem real, I don't know, I guess it's just so straight. She didn't seem defensive. She didn't seem like she wanted to self-aggrandize in any way. Which I mean, I think after that kind of internet experience of harassment,

I keep saying internet, but it's not just been the internet. I mean, there are police reports because of people threatening to show up at the clinic where she works and people calling and calling and calling the clinic. And she's, when she told us about those experiences and, you know, talking about Viviana Graham, who's one of the moms from the film who talked about sending her this Christmas card every year. And she, you know, she was like, they send it to my pediatric practice. Your mom's always had the work of being the CPT and then being just a pediatrician, like a, you know, regular seeing kids, healthy kids and all that. And she really resents people sending that to her office there because then her coworkers have to deal with it. And that's what she talked about. She she didn't say and I'm sure she is mad she's rightfully mad

I'm not trying to paint her as a saint that has no but you know whatever I'm not but I just I was very struck by that yeah she's like she doesn't she also like I think she seems to accept the nature of her job and the way that that's going to make people angry and doesn't want that spilling out over onto her co-workers that are, you know, working in a pediatrics office. And yeah, I mean, I feel like in some ways this has probably been harder emotionally on you in a lot of ways just because, I mean, I can't imagine watching someone do this to my, my mom. I mean, I'm very close to my mom also. And I, I really, I mean this, like, how is this, you talked a little bit about this already, but I mean, what, this know, I, I have worried over the last six months or so about how this has, um, actually sort of cascaded out from me to affect, um, you know, my, my wife, I think she's had to

deal with me at a time when I'm, you know, pretty emotionally tightly wound. And I, you know, for a few months when we were unsure of like how big this Netflix funded wave of, of anger would, would get. I was worried about, you know, arson at her house. I woke up, um, I can't count how many times I've woken up from dreams where, um, either I'm there or someone calls me and tells me that she's been killed and I, you know, wake up and throw up. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's gotten to the point where I, um, and I mean, you know, I like it, fortunately it's died down a bit, but stupid things like, uh, people found the, you know, my wedding album on Facebook and started posting comments about, like, that I was lucky to get away from my monster of a mother. You know, like, it's just things like this where you, and again, I want to make clear, like, I'm not minimizing the struggle that I think that Maya and Kyle have been through.

Like it's, it's a nightmare that they've lived through and mine doesn't add up to that, you know, but, um, but it just, it's been a, um, it's weird to have that sort of just online mob, um, that takes a certain glee in, um, just like a small twisting of the knife every, every now and then at an unsuspecting time. And to the, to the point that, you know, you start to mentally break a bit, you're like, how long does this go on? Um, does this ever really end? But yeah, it has, yeah, certainly led to a lot of conversations about, you know, what sort of therapy needs to happen how what is a way to deal with um with the the stress and the idea of a sort of constant potentially violent threat um but uh yeah um and and i mean credit to my mom i think she has played as she's dealing with all of this herself. She has been one of the people that I've leaned on of like, how to, how do I handle this, um, these emotions, um, these feelings of almost like a fight or flight, you know, lizard brain reaction to it all.

So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't ever want to make it seem like I'm quantifying whatever I've gone through as being on the same scale as my mom or the Kowalski family. Everyone's been through a pretty awful experience. But yeah, it does really make me worry for humanity that this seems to be an activity that a lot of people enjoy doing. It's like taking a movie movie because it really is a movie and thinking that you may have noticed we do not refer to it as a document and and they take

that and see it as a call to action you know there's um it's getting sort of dangerously close to some sort of vigilante justice. But it's not what a liberal democratic society is built on. Yeah, no, I, you know, and I appreciate like, as you've mentioned several times, you know, and of course, you know, this has been an interesting couple of months for me because I, nothing like anything that you're, you know, this has been an interesting couple of months for me because I, nothing like anything that you're, you know, but like, I'm like, okay, we're officially avoiding Googling our name these days. You know, and like being aware that some it's sort of, it's confusing.

And I, also the idea, as I've learned all of these things, as I've seen these communications that he was part of, as I, you know, my opinion of him, better not said. But the kids, I am so worried about the kids, and I am not against them. If all of this money were going to that, I mean, the amount of money is ludicrous, but if it was going to Maya and Kyle and Jack and Gregory Anderson were getting none of it, I think I would actually feel quite, quite a bit differently. But I think your mom saved Maya's life. That's the only conclusion I can come to after having read all of this,

all the medications, Beata's communications. This was not going in a good direction. It wasn't. It's so parallel to something like the Olivia Gantt case, the Danita Tuck case. I don't know what the people who are detractors of what I'm saying, pointing out those things, I don't know what they think was going to happen if she was allowed to leave the hospital. And if they had let them leave the hospital

and she died, what would they be saying about the hospital and your mom then? And I think it's good for Maya and Jack to believe that a bunch of people were in a conspiracy out to get them, and I don't think it's good for Maya to believe that she's this sick girl that's not capable, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think any of those things are good,

and I don't think that a six-plus-year revenge journey is doing anyone any good. So it's like, you can hold compassion for the kids especially and for what the family's been through. And the fact of having to experience your mother's death by suicide is horrible. You can hold compassion for all of that and still acknowledge the truth of the case. Like those things are not mutually exclusive. And I would argue that you're not, it's no favor to these kids not to acknowledge that.

Well, and to your point about the conspiracy side of it all, you know, I think that there have been sort of, there have been pretty dubious constellations made out of the individual points in this case and people sort of drawing patterns, you know, for instance, about like some sort of quota that like a CPS, you know, medical director has or something like that. I mean, I can tell you, if there's, if there's any, if there's any logic to this, let's just walk through this. So I, as an adult, as, as you've said, I, I have sort of a separate from the, just the deep love I have for my mother. I have a deep respect for the work that she does. And that is

partfully, it is partly born out of like when I was, you know, a teenager and, and like, I just remember like being, I was, I was playing soccer at, you know, a fairly competitive level and like often, or maybe not often, but there was, there were no shortage of times where she would miss a game or something. And it was because I would learn later, like she was, you know, doing a medical exam for a kid who had been, had had their skull cracked by their, by their parent or who had, you know, in rare cases, you know, dealing with medical child abuse or, um, I mean, it comes in all sorts of forms, but, um, you know, she is an extremely attentive parent and she sacrificed a lot, a lot of school events, a lot of like school concerts and

soccer games and birthday parties and stuff to go look at like the worst thing that you can look at. And, and I, you know, we, we certainly had a stable, you know, family income growing up, but like she did that for years without a raise, you know, like, there was, her salary stayed the same for, like, I don't know, a decade? Like, you know, and you would hope that you'd at least get a cost-of-living raise, you know, in that time. But just, there's,

I don't really know what else to say to the claims that there's some financial incentive or, like, a sick ego incentive you know like she'd come back at like late at night just kind of like broken sometimes by what she had seen and like and i get that some i get that some people who are affected by this and feel that they've been unfairly, you know, identified as someone in need of help in how they parent their kids. I get that that's a really stressful experience and that maybe that's like the shortest line you can draw between two points of like, well, this person must have some motivation. They must be getting something out of it. It, it lines right up with the, like, why are cops giving out speeding tickets? It's like, oh, they must have a quota that they have

to hit for the, for the month. Um, I mean, if, if that was the motivation, well, she didn't get money out of it. She didn't get, she didn't get money out of it. She didn't get, she didn't get more time with her kids. She sacrificed a lot to, you know, deal with this topic for decades. And I don't, if people don't believe that, that's fine. But maybe they should at least hear somebody in her immediate family believe that, that's fine. Um, but, um, maybe they should at least hear somebody in her immediate family say that like, um, all of us kind of bore a bit of a sacrifice because of this job when we were growing up. And, um, I can't change anybody's mind about it, but it should be said. Yeah.

I mean, and I think, you know, I heard from, and I'll definitely mention in the episode because I, she asked if I could mention it. I just heard from someone, you know, that she has, that she was a lawyer, she was a family court lawyer for years in Pinellas County. And she had really good things to say about your mom. And she said, I remembered a whole bunch of times she would testify on behalf of a kid and not charge because, you know, and yeah, I mean, and even if it was for some ego thing, it's like, well, your mom wasn't out there seeking press for being this amazing doctor. I mean, she did not want to be in the press, right? It's like, I don't, I think if someone had those motivations,

you would see evidence of them. That's the thing, right? Like there'd be some trail, some paper trail there of, you know, we know it when we see it. Yeah, I mean, it's, I, I, my position is that the truth still matters, even if people, I know there's going to be people that discount everything you say, everything I say. But it's not everyone. And there are a lot of people that watch this movie that just have no idea about the facts in this case. And I think,

you know, you had said this thing earlier about how this broke your brain in terms of experiencing media. I think for me, and actually for the entire team here, as we've made this season and sort of, you know, unthreaded everything in this documentary, having all watched it months ago, and now poured over the transcript many times, when you realize how there's just nothing to it, it's so thin. And it sort of made me go, oh my God, like how many podcasts or documentaries or whatever have I consumed and just been like, well, that's true. So this is a true story. So this person must have done their due diligence. They must have talked to both sides. They must have documentation. They must have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we realize

that's not true. You actually can just put something that bears almost no relation to the truth and Netflix will buy it because it's an emotional story that's going to inspire outrage. And that is a currency. And that is real. And I don't think, I just will never look at anything the same way. And that part is hard to sort of, you're like, oh, it has shifted my worldview. You know, but I think it's like you still have to try, right? You still have to try and get the truth out there.

And I think it's so, you know, something that there's like, it's a real setup here with doctors where they can't talk in the media and they can't respond and they can't speak out for themselves. So, you know, we don't, we think of doctors as powerful people, but actually they're incredibly vulnerable when it comes to this kind of coverage. And so I think there are a lot of people that just are swallowing the narrative that they're given, much like I'm sure I have. It's not just because they're dummies, you know, or like not capable of critical thinking. And I think that this will mean a lot to people to hear from you. So I want to tell you about a really wonderful organization we're supporting this month. Equality Texas has been working for full equality for LGBTQ plus Texans since 1978 through political action, education, and community organizing. Texas is not my home state, but it is near and dear to my heart. Several of our team members are based in Texas, as are many of the people you've heard from on the show and many of our listeners. Over the last few years, LGBTQ plus folks in Texas have faced

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hello at nobody should believe me.com so we can match your donation. This ad was provided pro bono. I just wanted to ask you kind of as like a final question. What do you want people, like what do you most want people to know about your mom? I guess I would I would want them to know that you know when you get a family together and you talk about something like this that's happening in your life you know we just had Thanksgiving we a family together and you talk about something like this that's happening in your life, you know,

we just had Thanksgiving and we all got together and wanted to check in on my mom and how she's doing, you know, people get animated and they will have a lot to say and they'll, they'll say their, their worst, uh, you know,

their, their, their least generous ideas if they're angry about the world. And even in that environment, no matter what, as you said, she's not bitter at the way that this has shook out. You can just sort of... not bitter at the way that this has shook out. I, you know, you can just sort of,

she hangs her hat on the knowledge that like a lot of children are alive because of her. And I get that one slickly edited film makes it seem like one of those cases is dubious, but there are so many kids that grew up in Pinellas County that are alive because of her. And it's really, in cases where they've reached out to her and said as much, you know,

I think there's, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't sell as a Netflix movie, but, but even in these close conversations that would never, you know, that would be in, you know, in our, at our kitchen table. I'm kind of stunned that you can't get a rise out of her. You can't get like a, can't get a negative thing from her about this. She's not going to rant even a couple glasses of wine in that Thanksgiving that when most of us would rant about, you know, someone getting a parking ticket, right? Yeah. Because I think it's,

she doesn't see this as, it's not that she's motivated to do this. It's not that she loves this job. It's that she sees it as something she had to do. Right. For, I get, you know, in her testimony, I think she said that she was interested in it all because after going through a, you know, in her internship, having some exposure to this topic, but like, it's, I think that's why she's so sort of solemn when she does this work is that she sees it as like sort of a

I'm not religious but like I think uh, you know a sort of a higher calling to do it Um Knowing that it's the right thing to do even if you have to face like a horrible trial um You know, I mean that in the sense of the trials of life, not a legal trial. But yeah, she is through to her core. Has understands why this family has felt the way that they do,

but, but that still was the right thing to do. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I absolutely like, I,

I see that in talking to her and it's really had such, it's really had such an effect on me. You know, and when we talked to like Detective Mike Weber, and I think even for me, you know, like, and again, I'm not comparing my job to hers by any stretch of the imagination, but like sometimes you are, sometimes you realize that there is something

that needs to be done that you can take on in a way that maybe other people can't. And it's not because like, oh, wow, this is the most fun. It's because it feels purposeful. And there's a drive to do something where you are uniquely sort of made to do it. And I mean, talking to her mom, you know, it sounds like she had a mentor that really saw that in her. And, you know. And I mean, talking to her mom, you know, it sounds like she had a mentor that really saw that in her. And, you know, and I mean, that's a powerful thing and we shouldn't make the cost

for doing the right thing so high. Yeah. Well, is there anything else that you want to say while we have you? In some ways, I'm really, I am thankful for some aspects of all of this happening. Um, I am so glad that I became aware of this show. You know, my mom's career is over in this space. She can't contribute to this really important cause anymore as a medical director. But this show, I think, is like... There will probably be kids that survive because of this.

So whatever vitriol you all receive, I hope you know that like, it's, um, you're, you know, you're not just doing it for the same reason, but you're having, you're, you're doing it for the same impact. Um, even if it's like, if there's one doctor out there who realizes because they're exposed to the show, like, Oh, maybe I should revisit this one case that I'm stumped by. And they realize that it's a potentially fatal, you know, instance of medical child abuse. I mean, that's worth it. Right. So, so thank you all for the work that you're doing. I, um, I'm glad that I became aware of what the discourse is.

And, you know, there's some scary people who have it out for your mom, and I'm sure I'm going to hear from a few of them. And, you know, when we're walking out of your mom's house, I was like, bring it. Because like I've never been so sure I'm on the right side of something. And I think it is worth it to stand up for your mom and everything she represents in this case. And it's much bigger than this family and your mom and me. And we all understand the impact here. And I just like, I'm very grateful to have, had you, you know, to have made the connection with you too.

I really, you know, so just thank you. I mean, I'm so grateful that you got in touch and, and brought your mom, you know, got your mom on the show. Like, I know she talked to me because of you, you know, and she said as much, she's like, well, Pat put in a good word for you that helped. And I was like, you know, and it's, it's like, to me, this is, this is like a once-in-a-lifetime chance to help right a wrong. And I hope as many people, I hope if people ever listen to anything on this show, I hope they listen to this. So thank you so much for being with us, Pat. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Of course. Yeah, keep up the work. Thank you. And we'll be in touch, obviously. I hope I get to meet you in real life sometime. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. I hope so too.

If you've been listening to this show for a while, you know that I have very strong feelings about what is and is not responsible true crime content. Maybe you've heard me make some pointed comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen comments about the producers of a certain film, or perhaps you've heard one of my dozen or so rants about a certain journalist whose name rhymes with Schmeichel Schmeichel and Bog. And if you've been with me for a while, you'll also know that getting Nobody Should Believe Me on the air was quite the roller coaster. Podcasting is just the wild west, y'all.

And these experiences are what led me to launch my new network, True Story Media, where we are all about uplifting true crime creators doing the work and making thoughtful, survivor-centric shows. And I could not be more thrilled to announce our very first creator partner, You Probably Think This Story's About You. The first season of this enthralling show from breakout creator Brittany Ard took podcasting by storm in 2024. Zooming to the number one spot in the charts on Apple and Spotify as Brittany revealed the captivating story of a romantic deception that upended her life and traced the roots of her own complicated personal history that led her there. Brittany is back in 2025 with brand new episodes, this time helping others tell their own stories of betrayal, heartache, and resilience. If you love Nobody Should Believe Me, I think you

will also love You Probably Think This Story's About You for its themes of deception, complex family intrigue, and its raw, vulnerable storytelling. You can binge the full first season and listen to brand new episodes each week by following the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find it at the link in our show notes.