Nobody Should Believe Me - What Makes a Con Work with Jordan Harbinger Part 2

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Andrea and Jordan Harbinger wrap up their conversation with a deeper look at Netflix's Inside the Manosphere, unpacking the business behind these influencers and why so many young men are drawn into these communities. They discuss what healthy masculinity can look like and why building community may be the most important antidote of all. *** Listen to The Jordan Harbinger Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jordan-harbinger-show/id1344999619 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Friday. It's Andrea, and we are back with the second installment of my conversation with Jordan Harbinger. Today, we are digging into the Louis Thoreau documentary on Netflix inside the Manosphere and talking about what it says about where we are with gender politics and why that matters for all of us. So without further ado, back to my conversation with Jordan Harbinger. So this is for those who haven't watched it's Netflix documentary, with Louis Thoreau, who I don't, you probably know more about him than I do. And he talks to a number of content creators, podcasters, that are Manosphere guys, as he defines it. And to me, like, not having spent a lot of time studying this space, I thought it was pretty interesting. I do feel

like I got some good takeaways for it, but this is a space you know a lot more about. So, you know, What were your thoughts on the dock? Oh, God. Where do I even begin? I mean, they focus mostly on this guy, H.S. Tiki-Toki or whatever, which is so funny to say out loud because it's so ridiculous. But this is a guy who is, he's 23. He's a British dude. During the filming, he's on the run from the British authorities for crashing a car and probably while under the influence.

So he flies to Marbeus Bain before, you know, flying back to the UK and eventually getting arrested. And this guy, he runs a grift where he sells. stock trading tips which are not real in a special telegram group telegram's a messenger thing like WhatsApp that's unmonitored and unmoderated essentially and that's how he makes his money

now I don't even know where to begin Andrea because this guy is a disaster right he grew up with as you see at the end of the documentary a very strange mother where they might be kind of enmeshed in a weird way but also she's like kind of

an awful person Yeah, so he has, so his situation, as I recall it from the doc is, so he was raised by a single mother. He's by racial. His father was a famous rugby player, is that right? And who was not in a relationship with, yeah, with his mom. I think he's only met him a couple of times. And unsurprisingly, a lot of his content is extremely misogynistic, extremely judgmental of single moms, which of course then one of the many ironies, I think that the film does a good job of revealing. is that a lot of these guys were raised by single moms. Yes.

Or had pretty tumultuous relationships with their dads. And so it's quite a sort of reveal of her. Yeah, I think their relationship is interesting. I could have sort of watched an entire documentary, I think, about their relationship. She sort of comes off as a bit of a nightmarish stage mom was kind of my vibe, especially because he is so young. I mean, some of the other guys he talks to in the film are sort of more fully formed adults.

I think with him you can sort of see, I almost felt like HS Tiki Talkie was, which I have a real hard time saying with the straight face, but was sort of victim and perpetrator at the same time. I kind of think so too. Like, look, I'm not excusing any of his behavior because it's absolutely inane. But my hope for him is, look, he's clearly not a dumbass. He's 23. So he's a dumbass by virtue of being a 23-year-old man, which I was all a boy, which I was when I was 23, I was, you know, also a dip shit, I guess is the best way to put it. And I'm kind of hoping that he, one day when he's like a little older goes, oh my God. And then his Wikipedia says all kinds of embarrassing shit about him and we come full circle.

But the thing is, there's hope for a guy like that, right? Because you can tell that he's performing when he's like, yeah, the Jews. It's like, dude, you don't believe that. He even said, I don't really believe that I'm doing it for views. And it's like, okay, you don't see why that's unhelpful and kind of gross because you're a young idiot. Fine. And then he's like, women this, women, that. And it's like, yeah, you're doing that for views.

You don't believe that either because look at your mom. He even said to Louis, oh, mate, I got a slap if I talk like that around my mom. And it's like, okay, so your entire personality is a performative fake suit that you wear so you don't have to face the world as an injured boy with a weird mommy relationship and no dad. And that's sad. That sucks. It is sad. And I think, you know, again, it's not excusing the behavior. It's not negating the impact that it can have.

But I think that is one of the strongest through lines that comes throughout the film is the, you know, thing where, and I thought Louis Thro did a really good job as this sort of just kind of steel manning their arguments and sort of taking them seriously. Because I think he just asked follow-up questions and they clearly wanted him to debate them and argue with them. And there's no point in doing that. That's what they do all day long, right on their thing. Like the controversy is what they clearly get out of it. they can, you know, they're very adept at that, but someone just sort of being like, well, do you really feel that way? Was much, clearly, like, sort of put most of them on their back feet.

And then they really pushed back hard about this idea. It's like here they are saying all these awful things. And then when someone says, well, it seems like you're very homophobic. And then they're, oh, I have a gay, you know, I have a gay best friend. I got a gay mate. I can't be homophobic. I got a gay mate. One of the things I wanted to ask you about was because I had a very strong reaction to this

as a parent. My kids are little. I think yours are little two. Mine are seven and three. How old are your kids? Four and six, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, about the same age. And so we have kids that are, we're thinking about in this sort of a future context, but not, you know, they're not on social media. They're not interactable. I don't know if you're not. But I'm assuming they're not. And like sort of thinking about my son in particular. And like, I think a lot of this can be very scary, but sort of thinking about, like, oh, is this going to sort of suck him in? And then it's revealed in the film that, you know,

a lot of the followers of this content are, in fact, teenage boys, right? Like 14 to 15 years old. And I have two really strong and kind of opposing reactions to this. And I wanted to get your take on this. On the one hand, I'm like, that's horrible. Teenagers are really impressionable. This is like wiring their brains in a bad direction. And then the other thought I had was, since time immemorial, and this is not an excuse, this is not a boys will be boys. but teenage boys love to shock. And it's horrible and it's incredibly juvenile. So it's not surprising that this is popular with that demographic. Like teenagers love to shock adults.

And these things are very shocking and they want to get a reaction from adults. And so there's part of me that's worried that at least some percentage of these young men who are consuming this content will really like internalize the messages. And then there's part of me that thinks, well, probably a large portion of these boys will hopefully grow out of it and then be extremely embarrassed that they ever, that they ever were involved with this. And you were once a teenage boy. Like, what's your take on this? No, I absolutely agree with that. When I was a teenage boy, I was essentially a criminal, like a cyber criminal. Oh, that's right.

You were literally a cyber criminal. Yes, I grew out of that, in part because I was like, wait, if I want to make money and not we looking over my shoulder. and have it be sustainable and get accolades for that. The way to do that is not through crime. It's to build a real business, for God's sake. So I just did that instead. And now I'm like, oh, thank God I did that. Or I'd be in prison right now, you know,

and you see a lot of people who went the other way. But usually it's because they had a screwed up childhood and they made bad decisions, right? Even some of these advanced cyber criminal type guys where you're like, oh my gosh, you're a genius. Yeah, but my dad used to beat me up. It was a violent alcoholic and my mom did meth. You know, it's like they're still in that bucket of guys

it would be gangbangers but decided they were going to hack banks instead. It's like the same thing. It's just a little bit more. There's a skill involved in what they're doing. Or they become online content creators because in fact, we got a lot of reveals about what some of these guys' history was like. And it was very sad. What's interesting is these guys, you say, will these guys outgrow it? Many guys will outgrow it or become disillusioned with it? Because remember, what these guys do to actually generate revenue is essentially run a scam. Now, I can't say this person is a scammer or a fraudster because I could incur liability

doing so, but I think we all know that these people are scammers because here's how they make money. And you asked me this via text before the show, and I was like, I'll happily explain how these guys make money. So I want to make really shocking content that goes viral because it has shock appeal. Okay. Then I say, you like shocking content? I have even more shocking content.

And you think that girl that's with me is pretty? Well, if you want to see her kind of naked, I can't put that on YouTube or TikTok. But if you come to my telegram group, which is, again, like a WhatsApp kind of thing, you can go in there and I can broadcast anything I want to you. So then I have these people in my telegram group, these 100,000 kids or whatever, and I say, all right, here's what I'm doing. I got, this girl is not my girlfriend. She makes online content and it's a little bit racy and it's five bucks a month.

Don't be a cheap ass. Sign up for that. Sign up for that $5 a month thing. And if you do that, I'm going to give you this free PDF on how to make money online. And the PDF says, by the way, here's how I make money online. I stock trade. If you want to get on my stock trading group, it's pay to play. That's $100 a month.

It's another channel on Telegram. Here's how you sign up for that. So now I'm getting you to buy her only fans, and I get a cut of that. And then I'm getting you to buy my stock trading tips, and that's all going to me. And then if you want to be on my stock trading software, that's an additional amount of money. And if you want to be in my software trading group that does these other crypto things, that's an additional amount of money. And it's upsell, upsell, upsell. But remember, the lead gen, the generator of leads for all of this was my video of me punching a pretend pedophile in the streets of Spain and saying that I'm hunting pedos to try and make myself look good.

But it is a scam. And this is lead gen for that scam, just like you see podcasters who are not scammers, I should say, in this case that I'm about to give you. you might see a podcaster that gives you like retirement financial advice they're a financial advisor and at the end they go and if you want a detailed strategy about how to set up your finances email me jordan at jordan harbinger.com and you can sign up from my financial firm and i'm licensed in the united you know california blah blah blah or i can refer you to somebody else like that's how those people make money it's straightforward it's transparent they provide a real service subscription content oh you do yeah of course i should have used that as the example i should have used that as

the example so that that's what these guys are doing so from their perspective it doesn't matter at all if what they're doing is real or fake, if it's a real pedo or somebody they assaulted or a guy they paid to get beat up on the streets of Spain, that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter that they're trashing the girl who's there. She's making money from her only fans. It's a symbiotic relationship in a disgusting kind of way where these girls go to his house and stay there and film their porn and then he gets a cut of the porn that they sell to his guys in the group. And they're getting, they're benefiting from that. And they're benefiting from it. Yeah. And then he trash talks them and says,

It's disgusting. Any girl that I know I'd never be involved with anybody like that. Bro, you literally sell porn. You cannot make that claim credibly. Oh, I don't believe it. And I'm just doing it to make money. Okay, so you have no morals or principles at all in how you make money. I'll put a button on my point here.

So worrying about guys outgrowing this, getting disillusioned with this. That happens in part because guys outgrow this, but also in part because they become the victims of a scam from all of these people that they trust. Oh, you sign up for Andrew Tate's, how to make money online course. Well, did it work for you? No. Okay. Well, maybe that was bullshit, dude. Oh, but then you signed up for this guy's stock trading tips. Did you make money trading stocks? No. Hmm, that's interesting. Uh, and you signed up for a bunch of porn. Was that good for you? No. Okay. And then you signed up for a crypto trading thing. Did you make money doing that? No. Okay, I'm sensing a pattern here. Do you think they might be using you? And eventually the guys go, none of this shit works. These guys are just scammers. And that's how they outgrow it. Either that or they realize that they're going to get smacked in the face hard by reality. A lot when I was doing the, the Pudo pickup artist adjacent stuff. A lot of guys got smacked into reality because they met a nice girl and that girl went, look here, Jordan.

Look here, Tom. You're nice. But if you don't cut the shit, I don't ever want to see you again. So you have to decide right now, are you going to be a normal person or are you going to keep telling me that you have a Lambo and your cleaning lady is also a stripper and you have a yacht? I don't care. You've got to draw the line. Or they get a harder slap, which is Tom, I like you. you're a complete and total screw up.

Call me when you get your life together and stop lying by. Or like, you know, the British accent guy who, this, this community destroyed the one thing I really wanted. No, you're an idiot. You destroyed it. You made all those choices. British accent guy is really going to stick with me. I got to tell you.

I'm just thinking about this. And it's like you have to take responsibility for that. Don't blame guys doing self-help on the internet. That's not, nobody told you to pretend you were British for two months, dude. That psycho behavior is all you. So guys usually have to hit a wall. It's like when you're an addict, you have to hit rock bottom. You have to hit some sort of reality wall with this where it's like you don't have any friends.

All your friends are online. Everybody you think you're friends with, you have to pay them for their telegram group to talk to you. What's wrong with this picture, dude? Yeah. One of the other things that really comes through in the film as he's talking about these guys is like in terms of any of this leading to any of these men being a viable romantic partner, right? Because that's part of the cell. Part of the cell is we're going to teach you to be an alpha guy and like alpha men get the women and alpha men high value. Just this sort of like very dehumanizing rhetoric to everyone involved from my opinion of like, well, you're just going to increase your numbers here and increase your numbers here.

And then you'll be a high value men and you can have a high value woman and, you know, well. But I think what's so interesting is so much of this is focused on. It's like Lamborghinis and cigars and like this kind of the sort of way of dressing. in the way. And I was like the gym stuff. It's like, this is stuff guys like. Like, this is stuff that, this is not stuff that women like. I'm like, women do not like men that do these things. I mean, some women, sure, like women are not a monolith, shock, shockingly. Yeah, sure, there are some women where like that's their type. They like a guy who's wearing labels. I mean, but it's not, it's not a universally or widely appealing thing to women. I would say it's the exception rather than

the rule that a woman is worried about what kind of cigar you're smoking. There are many, there are many more women that like you see that guy and you're like no thank you. And it's sort of like when you think when you look at men putting all this energy into sort of how to be a viable partner to a woman, you're like, have you thought about things that women like? Is that just like almost seems to never enter the conversation. Or let me let me let me sorry, I don't mean to argue with you on your own show, but instead of worrying about what women like, why don't you actually worry about what you yourself like? Because these guys who are smart. smoking cigars and dressing in three piece Italian suits and have a pocket watch like the fucking guy in the peanut can, they don't like that stuff. They're doing it because they feel like they have to do it. The guys who are doing steroids at age 14, like clavicular, they're not doing it because they're like, this is great. I feel great doing this. They're doing this

because they feel like they have to do it. It's not self-improvement, right? No. Again, you're putting on a suit of armor so that you look like a cool guy. There's a guy in the documentary more towards the end. The guy who's like, yeah, I'm worth about 30 million. And when he's driving his car, you can tell he knows the cameras in his face because he starts clenching his jaw really tight. And it's like he tries to make a jaw line that he doesn't have when he's normally talking. And this is the older, blonde guy who used to be a, he was a former athlete and he's married and has kids this guy. Yes. He's married and he has kids. And he's always talking about how he makes his wife do foresums with women that he meets on dates or whatever. And it's like partially total bullshit and

probably not really happening. And part of it is, well, you're sex trafficking, your wife, I guess. But if she consents to it, fine. But then there's so many tells, right? Because Louis's like, so are you married? And she's like, yes. And he's like, well, no. I mean, there's this awkward moment where she looks at him like, what are you talking about?

We're not married. And he's like, well, I mean, I didn't bring the state into it. You know, something, something I'm a libertarian. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I don't. And the same thing with Myron Gaines and his girlfriend, well, now ex-girlfriend. And Louis, like, so are you okay? with him having multiple wives and she's like um and louis like i don't think she's okay with it man and he's

like no i mean when the time comes you know we're not we're not there yet but uh uh and you can see him back pedal which is almost hilarious because it's like dude just admit you love your girlfriend it's gonna be okay right oh wait no your followers are going to call you a beta cuck simp because you actually like a woman well that is a prison of your own making my friend i just got back from doing some reporting in the field with my producer Mariah, and I noticed that she was sporting a very cute bag. And what do you know, it was the Italian leather, hand-woven convertible crossbody from Quince. This bag easily looks like it could cost $500, but it is, in fact, $96 from Quince. I have actually been eyeing this bag for a while online, and after seeing it in real life, I had to go get one for myself.

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nobody. You can find all of that information in our show notes and remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Masculinity as a prison was a real strong like undertone of this whole thing where I was like, this looks like this does not look fun. It's not really masculinity, though, man. Fit and fresh or fresh and fit. Dude, these guys are some of the saddest dudes I've ever seen. And I know people are going to argue with me on that, or they're going to say it's cope or whatever. I remember their early videos. People would send them to me because they go, is this a real pickup, a street pickup where he meets a woman? And I go, no, here's all the reasons that this is completely staged and fake. And those guys don't like me for reasons that are pretty obvious when I start

pointing out how their street pickup videos are clearly, really just fake. So I don't care. I'm not going to burn any bridges. Those bridges aren't there. But this is not real masculinity. These guys are some of the most insecure people that you will ever meet. And I don't even need to talk about these two. Look at clavicular, the 20-year-old kid who was doing steroids at 14 and is now going to go to jail because he shot an alligator in Florida. I mean, this dude literally walked out of a Channel 5 interview with Andrew Callahan, if you know, All Gas, No Breaks. Because Andrew Callahan, not even arguing with him just was like, no, I'm pretty secure with who I am. And the guys are like, well, if you're not going to tell the truth, I'm out of here.

Like, he couldn't believe that another man was just kind of like happy with who he was in the moment and didn't have to. Clavicular hits his jaw with a hammer for those who don't know to break it so that he builds a stronger jawline. Do you think that's true? I've seen it do it. Oh, God. Yeah. That's so. Yeah.

I've seen it do it. That's a, you know, Google that on your own time. If you, if you dare. that's a very, very disturbed 20-year-old, a very young content creator who, I mean, it's really sad. It's sad because you cannot help but feel sorry for somebody who is so pathologically insecure that their entire life and everything they do in all the ways they self-harm and all of the things they create are just basically entirely about shoring up an insecurity of a like a body dysmorphia

kind of issue that the guy has. many other things. I mean, this is a guy who really, I just pray this dude gets into therapy because he's, there's probably like a nice young man somewhere. It makes me feel old saying that. There's like in the, somewhere in there, there's a nice kid who's just gotten beat up so many times by life that he's turned into this like weird, grotesque monster. Yeah, no. And it's, I think because he's so young, that's really, it's really sad. Yeah, I mean, I will say with the doc, you know, Myron was the one who came off the most genuine. scary to me.

Like he has a little undercurrent of like, and again, I have not interacted with his content in any other, because why would I do that to my own brain? Right. But yeah, I mean, his interactions with his girlfriend and then just sort of his general, he seemed angrier than the other guys that, I mean, Sneco seems the other one. He seems like he's gone off a conspiracy rabbit hole, which I think is one of the other big sort of fears of this kind of content. the fresh and fit Myron guy, he seems like we're going to hear Andrew Tate level stuff about this guy.

Oh, definitely. I mean, these, look, Islam, there's plenty of Muslims that don't feel like, that don't talk like this. So I got a caveat this, but Andrew Tate is a Muslim, Islamist, essentially. Myron Gaines is also one. Extremist, yes, extremist. So there's a lot of anti-Semitic talk. There's a lot of, that's where the multiple wives thing comes from. This is not some weird thing he invented.

He's not a Mormon or whatever, right? Like, he believes that he can do that because it's in the Quran. But bear in mind, I don't think they grew up that way. I think this is like a later in life conversion. I should probably fact check that. I think maybe they were like raised sort of diet Muslim, where they like had some holidays, you know, secular kind of thing. And now they're like, I'm hardcore.

But isn't that ironic that the guy who's a hardcore Muslim, Andrew Tate, also runs essentially an online content. The other guy in human trafficking. I don't know a lot about Islam. Or if you dive into a particularly extreme sect of Islam, sure you can like traffic in slaves or something like that. But that's like, you know, you got to take a pretty extreme view of things in order to get there.

And yeah. So and Myron's the same way. Like the whole multiple wives thing, that girl ended up leaving him, thankfully. Or I'm sorry, they broke up mutually, whatever. That whole thing comes from that sort of extreme. conversion, an extreme belief system. And it happens with Christianity, too. There's definitely sort of kooky, like super right-wing Christian influencer Manosphere guys. Yeah, I mean, yeah, they're not doing what Jesus would do in my understanding of my- I would probably, you know,

human trafficking was not in a- non-religious understanding of the whole thing. Well, so Jordan, I mean, I think like, you know, in terms of our takeaways here, yeah, I do think one of the things that was almost real, assuring about how juvenile all of this is, like, that there's probably a decent. And yes, I think, like, what's also sad about it is that you realize that a lot of men during, you know, and I think this is, this is the real danger. And we're all suffering the consequences of this right now, right? Like, young men breaking for Trump. Now they're sort of moving towards Nick Fuentes. Like, these things have, even if they grow out of them eventually, they have consequences for us all.

They are a problem for us all. We still have to live with these, the consequences of all of this. like all of us do. And I wonder, like, what is the sort of fix? Because I also think, like, EVS, even if they grow out of it and plenty of people do things when they're young, when they're working through their stuff. But it's like, youth is the time that you're supposed to be learning how to be a person in the world. And yes, you can make mistakes and you do dumb things and, like, that's all part of growth. But I worry about the years that a lot of young men are going to lose getting sucked down these rabbit holes, which would, like, have nothing for them. I think that's, what's the biggest sort of where.

You know what? You make a good point. Because like going through the whole like, let's meet as many women as possible thing that I went through. And I was like, I got to figure this out. And then I was like, oh, the whole trick is to deserve what you want and work on yourself. I had these big realizations. And then I did work through all those things. These guys aren't really doing any of that.

What they're doing is like buying porn, buying stock trading tips, doing crypto scams, where they're essentially mostly just losing money because they're the, they're the robs. They're not the perpetrators. And then they're going and spreading hateful ideas and alienating their sisters and their cousins and the friends they grew up with and the girls and the guys that aren't total bastards who have fallen down that room. So, yeah, it's almost like joining a cult where you come out four years later and you're like, hey, guys. And everyone's like, yeah, I got married and had kids. And you set do it around on a street corner in Harlem handing out flyers for four years. Yeah, I mean, the road back is so, it seems like the road back will be so hard.

It may be. You're right, though. At its best, it's just a huge waste of time. And at its worst, it's a hard road back. And you've got to unlearn that women aren't all only fans creators that you can shame and Jews aren't controlling the world and aren't responsible for your life not working out for you. And you can't have multiple wives in crypto is the scam you thought it was, unless you bought Bitcoin in 2016 or 17 or whatever. And you're not going to make a living stock trading and you have to get a real job, but you dropped out of school to, I don't know, go shoot sneako content in Marbella with HS Tiki-Tickey. Like, this is a waste of time, and it's really hard to see what these guys are going to be

learning from this that is going to benefit them later, or are they just going to come out bitter because they got screwed? Exactly. And I think it's funny, like even the problematic pickup artistry stuff feels almost sort of like quaint in retrospect, because you're still. still talking about, like, you could get yourself in a situation where you've been faking a British accent for three months. That is a tremendously stupid thing to do, but that person probably actually learned a real lesson from that. Well, of course. You know, and it's like because they're

out in the world, they're still interacting with human beings and like getting, you know, I think like being able to tolerate, and this is something I worry about with the young people sort of writ large, you know, being able to tolerate rejection, whether it's from potential romantic partners or jobs or just people you want to be friends with, like getting out there and doing a lot of that when you're a young person is the thing that prepares you to be an adult in the world and build your confidence. And I think there's so much that sort of like sands all those edges off now. I think like dating apps and that kind of thing are sort of just like putting people out of the world. And so it's like, it's not just that they're going to have to come back from this

extreme place. And also, like, we did not grow up with social media tracking our every move. This is going to be public for a lot of these people. These are going to be people who are one day wanting to have spouses and real jobs and maybe run for office who are going to have videos of themselves when they're 16 saying whatever horrific things they're saying, follows them around for the rest of their lives. It's funny. You should mention this because I just thought about this. You know how sometimes these only fans or adult creators are like, oh my God, I want to get married and I have a kid now. And they try to buy their videos and they try to take them down. And they send, it's all on all these tube sites and it's basically there forever and nobody can ever remove it.

And you go, damn, I mean, you did make the choice, but damn, I also feel for you because now you're 35 and you want to get married and you have a small child and you don't want to be like in this disgusting set of 100 videos. This is that for men. Yeah. Like, oh, you want that video down where you said death of the jury? Jews. Well, sorry, it's cut into a fresh and fit podcast. And it's also cut into a sneako live stream. And it's in shorts on TikTok on accounts that you don't control where you're tagged. So you are always going to be 25 years old, 26 years old saying death to Jews or women, all this and that. And you are never going to get rid of that. And that's fine. You're rich now. You don't need to get a job.

That's going to be interesting when you are having to explain that to the women that you meet and say that's not me anymore. I run a financial advisory firm and they go, yeah, but that is you. I mean, and image search is going to be everywhere. Like, oh, they don't know me. I'm Sneco. They're not going to know my real name. They're not going to come up. Of course. Explaining that too. Like, right. I mean, 99.9% of them are not going to be rich. In fact, you know what I said. Probably going to be broken trying to explain that. What shocked me is how little these guys make for selling their entire integrity and their personality and everything online. Like, Louis goes, H.S. has been live streaming now for seven hours.

My British accent's terrible. I apologize. I really, you know what? I appreciate your commitment to the bank. Keep it up. Yes. H.S. has been live streaming for seven hours. And at the peak, he's made $300 an hour. And my wife was like, wow, that's a lot. And I was like, not really.

Seven hours holding your phone, walking around, talking to girls, getting some only fans, chicks on your thing, beating up a fake pedophile or whatever and filming that. Like, you've got all that. And at peak, you made $300 an hour. Okay, it's better than working at Target or Chipotle. I don't know. Is it? That sounds like my personal hell.

The money is better. Sorry, the money's better. It's my personal hell to have to be live streaming all the time like that. No, it's my personal hell. But at the same time, dude, you have to rent a mansion that's, I don't know, $2,000 a night so that you can film in. You've got to pay for all those chumps that come around and hang on your coattails to film you.

You've got to pay your editor. you've got to pay for the cleaners and the protein and the gym membership and the flights and you've got to pay for the cars. You're not putting that into, call me crazy, it's really clear that you're not putting that into a 401k with a company match so that you can retire later. You're just buying lifestyle stuff because it begets more money. But what happens when you get banned off of all those platforms? Oops, there goes your monetization. Now you've got to run a scam. Fine until the FTC says you're going to jail for doing that or the SEC comes and says you're going to

jail for that or like HS had to fly back to the UK and get arrested because he crashed a car and fled to Spain like at some point the ride is over all these dudes who are flying high just a few years ago tie Lopez financial scammer they're all getting indicted it's your number will be up at some point or you just become completely irrelevant just like the chicks who make porn and then regret it later you become irrelevant in the industry and then you want it to go away but you don't have the ability to make that happen. Yeah. And I mean, I do want to make a delineation between, like, I think being an only fan's creator is, yeah, I mean, I think I get where people would want that content to go away later, possibly. But, like, I think that's something people are going to

have, like, less stigma about going forward. It's not actually hurting anyone else, right? So like, it hurts that person only. Yeah, exactly. So it's not. And possibly your future partner and your kids who are getting made fun of ruthlessly in school because of them are not going to porn. But, like, again, that's sort of like, I don't know, there's some different, for me, there's some different value judgments around that. I personally don't mind. Like, I don't care about that, but clearly people do because there's a huge amount of people trying to get that content removed. I think it's like, like many things that people put online, right? Like something, something to think through.

I don't think it's a reason for no one to do it. But anyway, I mean, we could probably go down a big rabbit hole on that. But I think, like, when we're talking about kind of these young men, and we're, We sort of started off with like this conversation about male loneliness. I think it's a human loneliness, but I think it's especially maybe it's a little bit more, we're seeing the consequences of male loneliness or male isolation on others. I think that's something that tends to be externalized in a particularly dangerous way. I've thought this many times just being even, you know, just like being married to a man.

I think I, women have a, I do think it's true that women have more. resourcefulness about community building, whether that's an aid or whether that's something that we've developed over time. Like, I think women do tend to have more friends. I mean, I think some of that is, some of that's very true. There's data. There's data for that. And so, like, I do think that that's something that makes me sad for men. And I think, like, there is a male problem here. And I think men need to be the ones to fix it. I don't think women can come in here and fix these men or be their moms or date more of them until they get better. Like that, none of those are solutions. Feminism didn't cause this problem. It's not our job to fix it. So with that, as a man, and you know,

a man with a big platform and who talks about these things a lot and who has like, I think you have some really deep insights into this into the Manosphere. And I really appreciate hearing them. What do you think is a possible sort of solution or set of solutions? Jeez, no, I don't know. This is going to get worse, right? Because a lot of this is not, oh, women cause this. We know that that's not the cause. You've mentioned that. We covered that. this is going to get worse as men lose the the sense of purpose when their job gets automated or when their economics, socioeconomic status goes down because their parents' job has now been automated. So you're going to run into that.

You're going to run into a massive, I mean, I don't know if we're going to see a recession because of this war, because of some other, or just the nature of the economy, but you're going to see a lot of people who can't get jobs. And I think that's already happening. Right now, software engineers are not getting hired. I know that's like been a big thing. I think the job market's probably pretty abysmal right now. When that happens, young men start to look for other problems to create or solve. There's a, it's Scott Galloway says it better than me, but basically, there's nothing more dangerous than a large contingent of young men with no sense of purpose and no job, no career, no relationship, a weak social circle. I mean, that's the stuff that revolutions are made of, but not all revolution. Most revolutions are actually not good, right?

They can end up really, really poorly. You can end up with a, maybe you call it an insurrection or something like that. And I'm not saying we're going to hit like a civil war because of this. But what I am saying is, do we need millions more men who hate women, blame women and Jews for their problems, think that society's dysfunctional. And the only way to solve that is to have a strong man, authoritarian dictator who's going to put all of the bad people in their place, like all the Browns who are coming over the border wall to take my job that I would never do in a million years. but they're causing the economy to go to.

I mean, you are going to see scapegoating at a massive scale because the real scapego. Because you have more vulnerability to it. Yeah. Yes, and also because of the real scapegoat is actually I run a company and I don't want to have employees because you guys are expensive. I'd rather have robots here doing it in AI here doing it and foreign workers here doing it for cheap. So no, I'm not going to hire you. But I don't want you to know that.

I got to point to something else. And that's something else better not be the other people who own all of these things. Right. Not the billionaires. They're actually causing your problems. Exactly. And I know people are like, Jordan, you're a communist, which is funny because I actually lean right. But I'm just pointing out the obvious fact here, which is that people find it harder and harder to get jobs and build careers. They're going to look for a boogeyman. And they already are. And that problem is getting worse, not better. The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus. Starring Emmy Rossum, Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer.

Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. I get a lot of sense of my identity and my purpose from my work. I know a lot of women my age that do. But I also think that women have, and I think this is something that I wish men had, women have a lot more things that they get their sense of purpose from. Right? I think a lot of women, like, I am, I don't have time to be doing this,

but I am volunteering with the PTSA and we're doing like, I'm leaving right after this to do a community food pantry that I've been organizing. all week. And like, that's something that made me feel really good. And I was doing it with other people. And it was like a sense of community. And right, like, the PTSD, it's all women. It's all women who have full-time jobs. A few of us, like, run companies. But I think, like, that's a good thing. I think sometimes there's this focus on, like, well, women do all of this emotional labor that we're not financially compensated for. And I think that's true. And I think that, like, women being so comfortable in those spaces. And, you know, I think a lot of us get identity from being a parents and from being, like, a

community member and just kind of we have all these access to things where I think for men, one of the things, one of the ways in which patriarchy is a prison for men is that like this focus on your job and your financial providership and that being the only thing that, you know, that you are worthwhile. Like you are not worthwhile as a human if you are not producing under capitalism. For sure. I've internalized that too. And I already know that. And it's funny, the word patriarchy always makes me cringe and smile. Again, I told you I lean right. I like never use that word. It's kind of funny. And you and I are friends and whenever you use it. I'm like, it's a real thing. Okay, then how would you describe it? No, it's just, it's just one of those words that's so emotionally loaded that in people have used it to mean everything. It's not that it's not real or whatever. It's just like, you're the only people in my circles that uses it. And so whatever you use it. I'm like, ah, here we go.

Jordan, are you triggered by me using the word patriarchy? I'm triggered. I am a snowflake. I want you to know that. I want everybody to know. I'm triggered. I am triggered by that word. Yeah, no, that's funny because that's exactly the right use of that phrase, too. I am triggered. I don't know what it is. It's just a funny word to me. But no, you're absolutely right.

Like, I don't know how you change the idea that men feel sense of purpose from producing economically and pretty much nowhere else in their entire existence. Do they get that feeling? Because, again, I've also internalized that. When I had to start my company again, because I had a disagreement with business, and left and stuff for it. It was like the worst thing ever. And people are like, oh, yeah, it's hard not knowing where you're going to make money. And I was like, not just that. I lost my entire identity, right? I have to restart my show. And I was like this person before and

who am I now? If my wife had to stop working with me for my company and do literally anything else or just nothing else or like garden, she would not give a crap. She would probably love to do that. Me, I would melt down, not sleep and slowly die if I didn't have my career. I know that. I actually relate more with the position you're taking. I think, like, I am someone who's very attached to my career, but I think the ups and downs of my career have not been, like, devastating to my identity. And, like, you know, my husband, he was a mechanical engineer. He got laid off during the pandemic. And I just watching him go through that, I was like, oh, this is having this sort of, like, profound impact on him. And, yeah, it, like, made me really sad.

And I think, like, to bring it back around to the sort of like what I wish for men, I guess I'll end with my wish for men and then I would love to hear your wish for men. Like, my wish for men is that they could move towards being fuller human beings in the world because I've had many good men in my life. I've been very lucky. I'm very close with my dad. I have some male mentors in the field. I have a lovely husband that I've been with for a decade. Men are full human beings. And they have much more value than whatever is in their bank accounts.

And I think like that thing is something, that idea of like your only value of everything. That is coming from men. Women are not imposing that. Like this whole thing of like, oh, women only want like, no, bullshit. Absolutely not true. Women want men who are good human beings and complimentary to them and, you know, just like humans. And, you know, men being fathers, men being supportive partners. I wouldn't be able to have the career that I have and have children if I didn't have a male partner that was pulling his weight.

That would be completely impossible. So it's like, I think I would like men to see their value outside of work, especially because work is going to change so much. And this idea that men are going to be out earning their female partners is already gone. Like that train has already left the station. Sure, in some cases they will, but not in all cases. And I would like to see men leaning into some of those things like male mentorship, right? Like being in Big Brothers, like being a scout leader. and working hard to make those spaces safe for young men and helpful for young men, right?

Like, I would really like to see men genuinely participate in mentorship and leadership, which I think are very masculine, you know, things. That is what I would like for men. I would love that. I think it's really hard for the current generation to maybe internalize that, but what we can do is grown up men is sort of ensure that the next generation of guys, doesn't come up thinking the only value they have is their career. It's going to be really hard to do because we're their living example and yet here and we're doing it may be wrong

a lot of us. But I also think that there's just a lot of guys that need to work on their, career aside, work on themselves because all of this comes from insecurity, right? All of this does. Like, I'm nobody without my career. No one's going to love me if I can't do this. is going to see value in me as a human if I can't do that. That is all work you have to do internally. There's nothing anybody can tell you or not tell you or stop telling you that is going to fix that. You really have to do that yourself. And the way that you do that is you turn yourself into somebody that you would like to be around and you turn yourself into somebody that, like you said, can give back to maybe the community in a certain way. Like become a Boy Scout leader or something

like that. Have your kids, if you have them join Scouts or another group like that. And if they don't, you know what? The coolest guys that we had in Scouts were the adults that were not people who had kids. They were like the 25-year-old dude who was like a gym rat who went on all the camp trips with us. And he just, I don't know, I guess like he was in the Scouts a long time ago. And he's like, yeah, well, go camping with a bunch of guys. That guy was like our hero. We loved him. We called him tough guy because he was always like wearing his powerhouse gym stuff. So we were making in front of them. But we learned how to interact with adults. We learned how to be men. I'll never forget. There was a kid who was really overweight in another troop at camp. And some of the guys in our

troop and other troops decided to bully this kid, okay? Because that's what happens at Scout Camp. And we were all going through the woods and someone was like, yeah, shouting this guy's nickname, which was like this impolite thing. And our guy's name is Joe Esdale. He ran into the woods and he goes, nobody move you will never talk to him like that again you will never do that again do you understand me and he like picked these two kids up which you can't do anymore

basically by this not the neck but like the collar and held them up in the air which I to this day as an adult I'm like damn that's that actually this guy really was hitting powerhouse gym every day because that's really hard to do and he put them up in the air and he's like

tell me you understand and we were like holy shit Joe just is like just melt down. And you know what? After that, we were kind of like, yeah, you don't do that to somebody else. That's not how you act. And I just remember, like, that was a life-changing moment. It's not okay to bully anyone.

And the people that you look up to, they don't tolerate that. They don't tolerate that behavior. That's strength that's standing up for other people. It is. Yeah. Protecting people who are more vulnerable than you. Yeah. I look at it with the podcast.

Like, I can't, I don't know, shoulder press to teenage boys. and I probably never will be able to, unlike Joe Esdell. But I can tell people about scams. I can warn them about how these influencers are victimizing them and about how you're just a number to them, how they don't care, how they don't believe the things that they themselves are saying, and that it's all a show. And you are the product, just like you would be if you were posting crap on Facebook.

You're basically doing only fans, but instead of porn, it's nonsense stock tips. Racism and bad stock tips. Yeah, it's just wrong. racism and bad stock tips. Exactly. And so that's how I look at it. And like, that's the small part we can play. But yeah, for guys changing where they get their purpose from, oh, that's going to be a tough, tall order, man. You were saying with some of these strategies that used to talk to young men about, like, I do think once things start to work for people, then they tend to lean into those things. And let me tell you, if you are a guy and you are out there talking to women and you manage to work into

conversation that you like are a big brother or a scout leader or something like women love that like that will get you much further than I have Lambo or whatever other thing you know you think if you do it just for that reason I mean don't do it just for that reason but it will also let me tell you things women like good women love that good women love that that is you know it reminds me of a point of the documentary that made me laugh literally out loud almost waking up my kids was where H.S. Tiki-Tickey. He's with his girl that he calls her his house cleaner and she did and she's like, I don't do that because she was actually an only fan's creator just staying at the house. He goes, what's the thing you admire most about me? And he's like on live stream and

Louis's filming him for the documentary. And he's thinking she's just going to give him effusive praise. And this woman, God bless her, has about two working brain cells. And she goes, yeah, money. And he's like, oh man. And he's like, Cut, you know, like. Okay, or is she crafty like a fox? Because obviously that's why she's there. Well, it is, but like she just didn't even care about hiding the ball or like preserving this man's ego.

She was just like, no, I'm only here because you have money, dude. Don't kid yourself. I thought that was hysterical. And that made me laugh out loud, but also I was like, if you don't feel bad for this guy yet, you're going to feel bad for this guy pretty soon because he can't unhear that. And that confirmed everything in the back of his head. that he is most feared, which is that he is absolutely nothing if he doesn't have a Lambo in a villa in Marbeia. Yeah.

Well, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on. This was really fun. I got a lot out of this conversation. So now I think we just go fix men, right? That's our marchion. Oh, that's up. Yeah. You start.

I'm going to go eat. I'll catch up with you. I think that's on you. You have men who listen to your show. Mine is 3.6% men or something. Really? I'm surprised by that. Well, I guess I shouldn't be.

That one of those presences me repeatedly downloading your show on all my devices. Yeah. Go tell them men to listen to my show. Yeah, they'll learn something. That's why we're doing this. That's right. All right. Thank you very much for having me on.

I look forward to the angry email that you and I are both going to get as a result of something I said. We'll see. We'll see. All right. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you. Bye-bye. Nobody should believe me is produced and hosted by me,

Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.