Nobody Should Believe Me - When True Crime Hits Home with Sarah Turney and Kourtney Nichole, Part 1

Episode Date: August 28, 2026

In part 1 of Andrea’s conversation with the co-hosts of The Final Hours, Sarah Turney and Kourtney Nichole, the trio talks about what it means to cover true crime when crime is already part of your own family history. They discuss uncovering difficult truths about people they love and what they’ve learned about the justice system along the way.  *** Listen to The Final Hours: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-final-hours-with-sarah-turney-and-kourtney-nichole/id1872821250 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, happy Friday. It's Andrea, and I'm so excited to share today's episode with Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah, Courtney, and I all come to True Crime with a very personal lens, as you will hear, and I absolutely loved chatting with them about their histories and their perspectives on the space. Right now, as you listen to this episode, the team and I are hitting the road for some

field reporting for season eight. And when I tell you that this is going to be a big one, it's going to be a big one. it's going to be a big one. While we are working on that season, we've got lots of exciting stuff coming up for you in the feed, including a brand new format we're trying out next month and lots of updates from past guests, experts, and more. Thank you, as always, for listening.

I'll be right back with Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca.com.com. Hello, Sarah. Hello, Courtney. Hello. Thank you so much for joining us here on Nobody Should Believe Me. We are so excited to talk to you.

because all three of us are in a pretty niche group of people, which is people who had a crime in their families and went on to become content creators, podcasters, in the true crime space. And this is a very different lens than most people bring to the work. And so we recorded an episode of your fantastic podcast final hours. And as we were sort of going back and forth about that case, I was like, I have to have these girls on to talk. about just this shared space that we're in and just kind of chat about true crime. So that's what we're here to do today. And if you could just start with Sarah, can you tell us who you are and what you do? Yeah, my name is Sarah Turney. I own Voices for Justice Media. So essentially, my media

company specializes in really telling these true crime stories from the people who know them best. Family members, loved ones, all of that. And of course, I got my start in true crime because my sister, Alyssa Attorney went missing in 2001. She was 17, and at a certain point, the police told me that my best chance of getting justice for her was getting media. So once I went through that journey, I just really didn't want to leave families in true crime alone is a very short way to put my story. Yeah, and I'd love to hear that in more detail as well. But before we get there, Courtney, can you tell us who you are and what you do? Yeah, so my name is Courtney, and I also cover true crime stories. I host all of my social media channels at Crime with Court, and I kind of dive deeper into the

unsolved cases where it seems like there's more at play, and there's still no answers decades later. And I also do it through a lens of someone who, my own personal experience, my family was involved in a crime. And so I kind of bring that aspect while like into the cases that I cover. But a little bit about me is when I was 12 years old, I found out that my grandma, who I was really, really close with, violently killed her mom. So my great-grandson, grandma. And this took place years before I was born, so I never even met my great grandma. But at that point, super close with my grandma. And when I looked it up, there were like two articles about it, not a lot of detail. But what was, you know, said was pretty graphic. And it just kind of stuck with me.

Throughout my whole childhood, I didn't tell a single soul because I was scared I was going to get bullied. And my family either didn't want to talk about it or just didn't know the full story. so they just didn't talk about it. Fast forward into adulthood, I was kind of just like tired of not knowing, like the full details. And so I got the case files myself, and it was like eight binfuls of information, very detailed, very graphic.

And then I just made a silly little TikTok talking about how I knew a killer, basically, the killer was in my family. And it kind of went viral. After I explained that backstory of like my family's history, I also was like Sarah where I didn't really want to leave the space. At that point in my life, I was really listening to a lot of true crime podcasts. And I was like, well, I feel like it would be kind of a good perspective to bring what happened to me and like shed light into other cases with other families and treat true crime a little bit more empathetically

than what we're used to hearing online. Yeah. I mean, certainly I think there's a lot of very problematic true crime content out there. And we won't necessarily name names unless you guys feel like you want to name names, in which case, go nuts. But Courtney, I'm curious. I think this is so fascinating and sort of like, again, what we all have in common, right, is this legacy of having very close family members in Sarah and I's case immediate family members who have committed really heinous crimes. And also that there was this air of secrecy, doubt, sort of layers of either sort of keeping things hidden or, you know, outright deception. And so I wonder, and obviously, like, I can only imagine that for your parents, this was a very tough question. And honestly, you know,

I have children. It's something I think about, right? I've answered some questions just in the realm of, like, do I have any siblings? But, like, that's as far as we've gotten. And, like, Fiona already has friends at school who's parents listen to the podcast. And I'm like, okay, there's a time here where I probably better, like, tell her something before she finds out from an elsewhere, obviously because I've made all of this so public. But it's a difficult question. What do you tell someone? When do you tell them? How much do you tell them? So for you, I'm wondering, can you tell us about your very first experience at 12 hearing this? And then tell us a little bit more about that journey of finding those abens and what you found out and sort of how you processed it.

I'm assuming that at the point you uncovered the stuff, was your grandmother already gone? No. No, my grandma's still alive. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So it's like an extra layer of like, I don't know. It's very weird. It's like a weird experience to go through because when I'm telling it now, I feel like I am very numb to it. So I feel like I can just tell it like a movie like I watched. But when I'm telling it to like people who don't know, they're just sitting there like their jaws are on the floor. They're like, are you okay? Like that's traumatic. I'm like, yeah. Like I'm okay. But so like I said, this crime took place before I was born. And this is my grandma on my dad's side. So my dad's mom. Fast forward, my mom and dad got a divorce. My families didn't really like each other. When I was 12 years old, my uncle just like randomly blurted out. Like there were some argument going on. An uncle on your dad's side? An uncle, my mom's side. Okay. I was raised primarily by my mom's side. Okay. I was still like in my dad's life. I was very close with my grandma who committed the crime, but mainly raised by my mom's side. And so this uncle on my mom's side blurted out. Like, do you know what your grandma did? Like, do you know that your grandma was a killer? And I was like, huh? Like, there's no way because my grandma is very sweet. Like, you look at her and there's just no way that she would do something. And I was like, there's no way.

And he's like, we'll look it up. Like speaking of wrong ways to tell a child, that is the wrong way to tell a child. Oh, for sure. I love. Or anyone, anyone this information about a family member. Like, no, do not do that, please. Exactly. I know.

I don't know why he did that. It was so inappropriate. And so anyways, I looked it up and a little bit about the crime. So it took place in 1990. And basically that day, my grandma Chris, she was helping her mom. So she's like taking care of her. She was over at her house helping like bathe her. And a conversation arose about my grandma's childhood. And without getting too much into it, my grandma was very like severely abused as a child. Sexually, physically, like everything. It was pretty bad. And by multiple of her stepdad's. So fast forward now in 1990, this conversation came up about the abuse. And according to my grandma, Her mom admitted to knowing about the abuse, but also not only that, but like blamed her for it and not the men that were abusing her, which is awful. And something just happened. I don't know if my grandma like blacked out or if she just snapped or whatever, but it resulted in my great grandma like drowning in the bathtub. And after that, my grandpa was away in California at the time. This took place in my hometown of Yakima, Washington.

After that, my grandma went back home, which was right down the street and kind of just like slept off. it for a few days. And during that time frame, according to the police reports, my grandma said that she couldn't stop hearing her mom talking, but at that point, she was, like, deceased. And so she just got to the point where she couldn't take it anymore. So she went back to her mom's house, right down the road. And instead of, like, calling the police to notify them that somebody had passed away, she proceeded to dismember her mom into eight major pieces, basically, and then took those body parts and put them in garbage cans and filled them with cement and then hid those in a storage unit in my hometown for two years. And literally during that time, she, like, faked

that her mom was still alive. So my dad is a very big mama's boy and was super close with his grandma at the time. And so he was, like, asking questions. Like, her neighbors were asking questions. And my grandma was, like, saying, well, guys, don't worry about it. Like, she just met this really wealthy man. She took off to Hawaii. Like, she's fine. She's having the time of her life. Don't worry about it. And she was, like, writing these letters, pretending to be her mom and sending them to the rest of my family. And fast forward during those two years, her neighbors were really starting to get suspicious that something was going on. They kept seeing my grandma come back to her mom's house with shovels, with tarps, whatever. They were telling the investigators, like, you need to really

look into this. Like, you need to look into her. During those two years, I guess it was kind of like, closing in on my grandma Chris that she was probably going to get caught at some point. And so she ended up confessing. And she told them everything. And she ended up only getting two years in prison. She got, she was sentenced to, I think it was, well, she was convicted of second degree manslaughter and only spent two years in prison. And then after that, she went back to the house she's been living in. Like she was living in prior to the crime. And she's still in that exact same house. And then fast forward a few years later, I was born. And my mom. mom, like, let her babysit me. So I spent a lot of my time, like, with her. It's just crazy. So that's

like a little bit of the background. And I didn't find all of that information out when my uncle blurted out that my grandma was a killer. I basically just found out the bare minimum that my grandma Chris killed her mom and dismembered her. And that was like about it and that she spent two years in prison. And everything else that I just mentioned, I didn't find out until I was like 21 years old, 21, 22 by looking at the case files. So it was like a lot. Yeah, that's a lot to absorb. And I think there are so many things popping up in my head, like the light sentences that women that female offenders get for violent crimes definitely like highlighted by that. But also I've had Gypsy Rose Blanchard on the show. She is obviously like the most well known Munchausen by proxy survivor on the planet. A podcaster friend of mine, Javier Lava, is covering like all of the backlash to her right now, which has been super interesting to get into. But matricide and patricide committed by abuse victims is actually not that rare. And I mean, it's not common, but it's not sort of only Gypsy Rose Blanchard and the Menendez brothers, which is, I think, how people often think of it. And we've actually talked to Harvard psychologist, Kathy Ayub, who's an expert on my child in my proxy as well. We've talked about that. We might have her back on the show. So it's one of those like phenomenons that is, obviously that's a really shocking story and most of them don't go in that direction, but also like this sort of not unheard of thing. I mean, how did that as you were going through those case files, did you have? conversations directly with your grandma, Chris, about it? No, honestly, I've never, I mean,

outside of telling her when I posted the very first video I ever posted about it going viral, I haven't sat down with her and like talk to her about it. The only other time that anyone in my family like brought it up to her, it was my sister. And I think my sister was probably like 16 or 17 and she wanted to know. And she brought it up and she was sitting in front of my grandma and grandpa, which my grandma and grandpa stayed together. Like my grandpa really supports my grandma. Like he recently passed away, but very supportive with her. And so when she brought it up, I mean, first of all, I'm not a very confrontational person, so I would never do that. Like, unless she actually wanted to, I just feel like it's scary, especially as a kid. But my sister,

when she brought it up, it was kind of like a shocking response, I guess. My grandpa got really upset and was like, well, what was she supposed to do? What was she supposed to do? And that was like unsettling to hear because I feel like most people, once the initial drowning happened, would probably like snap out of it and be like, okay, I need to call the police or something. It wouldn't immediately go to, okay, well, now I need to dismember somebody. At least not for me. Like, I wouldn't do that. Like, that's very graphic and severe.

I agree the aftermath is like quite a lot more sort of calculated and deceptive and kind of those other things that are like, I think there's some place where people can sort of plug themselves into a moment of rage upon discovering that your mother didn't protect you from this high lens and knew about it. And then it's the stuff after where you're like, well, that's a little harder to chalk up to like a moment of, you know, impulsive emotion. Oh, for sure. Yeah. So that's like been the only time that it was ever really brought up to her other than when I mentioned that the video went viral. And what's really interesting is when I, well, every time I talk about it, which is somewhat rare, but when I talk about it online, almost all of the comments are in

support of my grandma, which I never expected. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or a good thing. I just, it was kind of shocking to see because it is a violent crime. But literally all of, almost all the comments are like, well, I can understand. Your grandma snapped. If I was in that position and I was severely abused and I brought it up and somebody admitted they knew and like blamed me for it, I could understand why she would do that. And so when that video went viral, I did come to her and I told her that. I didn't want her to be upset that I talked about it. But I was, I kind of framed it in the way I was like, well, you know what? These people are in support of you. Like I had so many people like wishing her like a good life. And so I was like, okay, grandma, I know it went viral. I wasn't

expecting that. But people do support you. So interesting. What did she have to say about that? She was like all on board. She kind of opened up a little bit about how hard it was to like recover mentally from the abuse as a kid. And she appreciated that people were in support of her. So not a bad thing. I just haven't really sat down with her outside of that. And she's always said she wanted to write a book. I don't know if she ever has started, but I'm like that would be, I guess, a different perspective to have on what makes a person snap. Yeah. I mean, did you ever think about sitting down with her for an official interview? I would love to. I would absolutely love to. She lives in Washington and she's had a lot of health issues recently. And then my grandpa recently passed away. So I don't know when it would be a good time. But I definitely would love to sit down and have an

interview with her. There's so much nuance to that. And I think, like, as we're speaking about our sort of what we think is toxic about true crime, I think especially in relationship to, like, the Gypsyro's Blanchard case, which obviously people had such strong reactions to. And she got out of prison and she became this, like, overnight celebrity and just has had one of the more bizarre sets of life experiences, I think, of anyone alive, probably, you know, and sort of became this monolith for this abuse. And I think there was this very toxic reaction to, you know, and I think there was this very toxic reaction to her where, like, people either think she's this villain and, oh, you murdered your mom and they're trying to debunk her story of abuse, which is insane behavior, from my

perspective. And then there's this other side where they're like, yes, queen kind of vigilantee hero. And I'm like, oh, I don't think either of these are like quite the appropriate way to metabolize this story. And then I also think, like, I'm dying to hear kind of your thoughts on this, Sarah, as someone who's been in the space so long. But like, I think part of that, it is so rare, actually, that child abuse victims get any justice. Most of the time, people just get away with it. And well, I think that that's not the best thing to lean into of like, yes, drown that old lady in the bathtub. Like, that's not the direction we want to go. I can understand where people who have had those, obviously child abuse is an extremely common experience. Huge number of people will go through that

in their life. And so you can understand where people who probably wouldn't actually go through with something like that would get some kind of catharsis out of hearing that story. Oh, yeah. I know. And some of the comments were like, your grandma slayed, like literally. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, I understand. I get it. I get what you're saying. But you're right. I think both ends are a little bit extreme. And like we could meet somewhere in the middle where it's like, I understand why somebody would do something like that, even if I personally wouldn't. Yeah. And like you can be a victim and a perpetrator at the same time and many people are in that position. And so it's like, I think Slay Queen is a bridge too far for me. But yeah, Sarah, I wonder like your thoughts on this story and like just also the reaction to it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's complicated, right? And I feel like we're in a time where we're kind of overcorrecting how women have been treated for so many decades, right? Like, I have an aunt who was, you know, shot by her husband. And because she didn't press charges, nothing happened, right? And I think now we're in this era where it's very much like, you know, good for you, queen. You know, we see it in the horror genre. We're seeing it in true crime. And I think it's just like inherently complicated, right? And just analyzing what humans do in human emotions is so different from the law. And I feel like people are just trying to reconcile

those two things. I can see a world in which nobody is really blaming your grandma, right, Courtney, but legally there's still repercussions that have to happen. And I think, you know, we're just trying to find that balance. And to your point, Andrea, I do think that either extreme is not good. I always trying to approach this work with, I want to maintain the humanity of everyone involved, including the perpetrators. And I think, like, that's important because I think, like, if I lose sight of that, that I will make decisions that are not entirely ethical or positive. And so I always try and, like, anchor myself in that. Summer is going by so fast, but not too fast for a wardrobe refresh. And I have two fun quints

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for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash believe. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar-raised matters. On September 19th,

join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer, Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca.ca. So Sarah, you know, for those that don't know, can you take us through your story, which has been the subject of wide media attention, thanks to your efforts. And just sort of like you're, you know, you're in this very rare position of a family member who originally came from this place of not being able to believe that your father would be

capable of this crime to changing your mind. And while it may seem obvious to someone who's wired to look for the truth and look for evidence and sort of base yourself in that, it is very hard for people to come around to that. Like the emotional hurdle of accepting that someone that you love is capable of a horrific crime is a high one. It's one that both you and I and Courtney that we've all had to overcome. And so I'm always like, I'm so fascinated on people who change their minds. So I'd love if you can kind of talk to us about how you, like how that evolution happened for you and then give us a little bit of details on your story.

Sure. Like I said, my sister was 17 when she went missing in 2001 and I was 12. Our father, technically is her stepfather and my biological father, but the only father she ever knew. So, you know, for all intents and purposes, that's her dad, unfortunately. And it's hard because Alyssa's really the one who raised me. She's the one who made Christmas and birthdays happen and made sure I looked okay going to school. Like, she was as young as she was, unfortunately, the primary parent. And of course, that's not something I saw until I got older. But once Alyssa went missing, I already knew where my loyalty lies.

Like, I was always more fiercely protective over Alyssa than my father. When she went missing, I made her flyer. I made a website. And again, I'm only 12, right? But my father convinced me he's very manipulative, very charming, you know, ex-law enforcement. he knows all the right things to say. And at this point, he's the only parent left in my life. So he convinced me greatly that Alyssa just left.

And I really believe that. So for a long time, I felt really abandoned by her. I used to write essays in college about how I thought that she was like sipping margaritas on the beach and living this amazing life, you know, very idealistic. And then eventually, the police finally looked into her case because when she first went missing, our father basically said, she's a rebellious teenage runaway who's on drugs and went to her aunt's house, right? So in Phoenix, that's not going to elicit any response. They actually have a policy here where if your child runs away

and they're reported as a runaway, that primary responsibility falls on you to find them and not the police. So he's using all these loopholes and workarounds and reporting her missing in such a way that nothing happens. And when they finally start looking into Alyssa's case, I'm in like my first or second year. you're in college right around the corner, so I'm still living with my dad. And I'm the main point person for Alyssa's case. That means everything the police do, you know, goes through me. If they want to contact anybody in the family, if they want to come look at stuff, that all goes through me. So I'm used to having this massive responsibility. I'm happy to do it, you know, caring for my dad, who I think is this veteran, very sad sob story man who had all these terrible

things happen to him, including losing his daughter. So I'm happy to do it. And, eventually all evidence begins pointing to my dad. And, you know, and at that time, it was really hard for me to see. But they do find, you know, the biggest bomb and illegal gun bust in Phoenix history at this time. You know, and again, I'm in college. I don't know what's going on. And it really just turned my entire world upside down. I suddenly found myself alone in this world, really for the first time ever. My dad goes to prison. He sentenced to 10 years. And really all safety net, as small as it was, it's just gone for me. But I manage, and I buy a house, and I graduate from college, and I do all those good things. But as I finally get this separation from my dad for the first time ever in my life, I'm able to

see things more clearly. And I start asking people around me, too. I remember I asked my boyfriend of like 10 years. He lived with me and my dad when we were teenagers. And I was like, do you think my dad could have killed my sister? And he goes, Sarah, everybody thinks your dad killed your sister. And I can't say that one moment turned it for me, even though it should have. But it was like that combined with time and then just really opening my mind to the fact that he could be this monster that everybody says he is that I finally came around. It took me until like my early to mid-20s. And once I realized that he just wasn't this superhero of a man that I thought he was, I approached him. You know, he was still in prison.

So it's a recorded phone line and he calls one day. And I'm like, things aren't adding up, Dad. Like, I don't know what to believe. And he basically just brushes me off, which I think really just instilled it further for me. So in short, it was this very long combination of, like, very good evidence against him. And for the first time ever, getting that separation from him as an adult, where I'm not under his constant manipulation every single day. And, yeah, it just slowly came to that realization, worked with police. And they told me when he got out of prison for the bombs, that he would be arrested.

for Alyssa's murder. So at this point, I'm like, okay, you know, there's nothing else I need to do. They're going to get justice for my sister, you know, hopefully we'll find her remains, but that didn't happen. And that's when they sat me down and said, we don't have enough to prosecute right now. Your best chance is getting media pressure. And that's really when I started in this crazy journey. I had no idea what I was doing. But yeah, that's kind of the slow end of it all of it, just compiling to this point. Time and separation, I finally believed it was him. But from the start, I felt this fierce loyalty for Alyssa. So once I realized it was him, it was kind of this switch for me.

Like, I'm going to defend the 17-year-old missing child versus this man who I've been calling my dad my whole life. Yeah. And it's so compelling, I think, just because I know what my turning point was with my sister Megan. And it, you know, it was sort of slow and then all at once, right? It's like, you know, of course I had questions about I knew she had fake this pregnancy, but it's like, you will do these absolute, like, emotional backflips to justify that person so that you can maintain the image of that person that you love and sort of maintain your relationship with that person. And then, yeah, for me, when the suspicions went through the roof that she was harming her child, like that was the breaking point for me. And it has been horrifying, frankly, to watch, like, her husband and his family just be presented with evidence and evidence and evidence. And at this point, they would have to believe that, like, four area hospitals and CPS and law enforcement and my family are all in some, like, vast conspiracy to have a witch hunt for this person for reasons, question mark. And yet I think like the deeper they get in, the less likely they are to ever come around, right?

Because then it becomes this like sort of self-fulfilling thing where it's like, well, if you admit it now, then you have to also reckon with the fact that you have allowed this to go on for 16 years under your nose. And that would just be totally intolerable. So I like what you said about sort of the separation. And I think when you're talking about someone really manipulative with what your dad and my sisters certainly are, like if you can't. can't get out of that sort of reality distortion field that they create around them, then, like, you have no hope of, like, there, it's so much harder for, like, evidence and reason and logic to, to ever break through. Yeah, exactly. When it came to, like, Alyssa's trial, that's exactly what I said. I said, I was brainwashed, and that's truly how I feel. You know, and we do have four older brothers me and Alyssa, and they feel greatly the same way. Our dad was just so smart and charming that we all were fooled for a very long time. Yeah. And, and,

Courtney, I know you were a Dateline girlie and you had interest in true crime before you became a creator in the space. And what were, like, if you can kind of look back at your own journey and in starting to, like, not only dig into your family's case, but obviously report on other people's cases, what are some of the most surprising things that you learned about the justice system? Because I think, like, the way that our justice system is presented on, like, Dateline or Law and Order SVU or what have you is like, unfortunately, detached from reality. So I'm wondering, like, what were you, what have been your surprises about, like, how that genre, the genre, like, does or does not capture reality? I would say the perception of, like, the legal system in movies and

TV shows, it's very skewed. Like, they're, like, presented evidence and then boom, like, sentenced to life in prison. One thing, you know, in a good world, maybe, but that's not the case, unfortunately, and I think I've been really surprised to learn how many similar cases there are with different outcomes. You mentioned the Menendez brothers, for example, and I kind of compared that to my grandma's case back when I think it was in 2024 when that whole Netflix thing, Ryan Murphy's thing came out Monster. Speaking of people, I feel comfortable naming names. Ryan Murphy, just find something else to do, please.

Literally. I do not need you in the true crime space. single most toxic creator in the space. Yeah. I know. And so of course, that went viral with the Menendez brothers. And listening to that researching the case, I'm like, wow, this case is very similar to my grandma's case. However, in my personal opinion, I almost feel like my grandma's actions might have been worse than what the Menendez brothers did. However, the outcomes are so different. And like my grandma's now, now I was a free woman and they're still behind bars. And so I think that was what was really shocking and very interesting for me to learn is that you can have very similar crimes in two totally different outcomes. And it's kind of what gave me this passion to want to continue telling these stories because it just shines light on like how layered so many different cases and people can actually be.

Yeah. What about you, Sarah? And I'm curious also with you, like, did you, were you a consumer of true crime before you became a creator? Was that like your bag that you were into? Or like it was this kind of just like your experience of true crime was being involved in a crime story and then becoming a sort of advocate and creator in the space? Yeah, I was never a true crime consumer. I never liked your dateline or 48 hours or any of that. I loved horror movies. I can't stomach them as much as I used to when I was a kid. But Alyssa and I loved horror, but never into the true crime. And I think that was especially, you know, as I got older because I was living. a true crime story. It just felt too much. It was too much of a reminder. I couldn't use it as entertainment. So I just stayed away from it. And similar question, just like, what in learning about the justice system firsthand through your own experience and then through covering other stories in the media? Like, what was the most sort of surprising for you? I mean, to Courtney's point,

I think it's like anything can happen. Ideally, right, we're all living under the same set of laws in the same case precedents, if you will, in these cases, but you always see different outcomes. And I always say that, even in my episodes, I'm like, you know, the craziest things can happen in true crime. Anything can happen. And that's truly how I feel. You know, it depends on the lawyer you get, the judge you get, how much media pressure there is. There's so many factors to this beyond just the set of laws and the precedent that exists within the justice system. So I fundamentally think that true crime is unpredictable and anything can happen. happen. I so agree with that. And I think for me, like, one of the biggest revelations that I had was, like,

how much of it depends on just, like, individual will, like, of, like, a very, like, sort of a string of people, right? It's like, you have to have a detective that decides to investigate it. And that person has to have support from, like, their supervisor. And then if they are able to collect compelling evidence, they take that to a prosecutor, and that prosecutor has to decide not do we think this person committed this crime, but if I take this to court, am I likely to get a W or an L? And even if I am likely to get a W and we do think this person's guilty, is that going to be like good for my career or politically expedient? And obviously mileage varies when you're talking about prosecutors and how justice motivated. They are. I've met some prosecutors that are extremely like care very much

about children and really, you know, seeing justice for them and have really dedicated their careers to them, but obviously that's not every prosecutor. And that it's just sort of these very subjective decisions that, yeah, again, that's not what's presented to us on law and order, right? It's like, oh, if there's enough evidence, you arrest someone and then you take him and then everyone does a star turn for the jury and the jury decide. You know, it's just like there's so many ways that it can go wrong. And one of the things I wanted to ask you guys about, I mean, well, first of all, I guess a question for you, Courtney, like, do you feel like justice was served in your grandmother's case? Like, how do you feel about the length of that sentence? Not just maybe

even like in comparison to other cases, obviously, it's much lighter than many other cases. You know, and I think if there's a huge gendered thing there, that's something I look at, but a lot, like, the way we deal with female violence, it's very disproportionate to the way that we deal with male violence. But, like, I wonder, like, do you feel like given your grandmother's actions, like, does that sentence feel appropriate? Does it feel like justice was served? I don't know. I feel like it's really hard for me to say because of the basis of, like, which she committed the crime, which is like the abuse she suffered. And I don't want to be like, yeah, like she should have been in jail for longer because I feel like, I mean, I was never,

like, abused as a child, so I can't imagine, like, what she went through. It must have been horrible. That being said, if I'm looking at it as a whole, I do feel like two years is a little bit short for the aftermath of what she did. Like not the initial action of like drowning, but the aftermath of like concealing it for two years. That takes a level of like planning, manipulation, calculation that is like very hard for like a normal person to achieve. So the fact that she did that and pulled it off, I don't know. I don't know what would have happened if she hadn't confessed. I don't know if she ever would have been caught. And that's like weird to think about. However, you know, she did her two years. She served her time. After that,

she's never committed another crime, at least that I know of. She's always been a great grandma to me and to my sister. So I cannot complain about that at all. But one thing that I feel like would have been beneficial would be once she got out to require her to undergo some type of counseling or like mental health, like assessment, to make sure she's healing because she did her time at that point. So just make sure at that point that you are healing from this and being able to move on. and she was never required to do that. So when you like speak to her today, I think it's like a little bit clear that she still struggles with it.

She doesn't really talk about it openly, but just in her everyday conversations, it seems clear like that was such a heavy part of her life that she never really moved on from. So two years, I don't know. I'm not like professional like in law enforcement. So I can't decide if it was like justified or not for two years. but I do think she should have been required to get some mental health help. There's a few things in there that really sort of corroborated with discussions I've had about this with Dr. Cathy Aube. Number one, that people who murder their abusers, whether that's matricide or patricide or in some other set of circumstances, are actually like very unlikely to commit other crimes if they have no other violence.

It's likely to be, you know, a pretty specific set of circumstances. but also that killing a parent is a very traumatic experience. And I think that's something that people lose sight of because obviously, like, that person's not the main victim. But it certainly is something that you would want someone to have help processing. And like it's not, I think, as much as people can get on their horse about like sort of the vigilante thing. I don't think that's an ideal outcome for anybody in that situation, right?

because that has caused a lot of distress and pain to, you know, like, then you have to live with having murdered someone. And that's not an easy thing to live with unless you are just a stone cold psychopath, which most people who commit crimes are not, you know. And so that would be a very, very hard and traumatizing thing to live with. And I know, like, Gypsy Rose Blanchard has talked about that, right? And I think, like, when I look at that case, there were many failures. And yes, I mean, her and Nick Goda John are culpable for the crime. They were held accountable for the crime. Jipsyros Blanchard got seven years for her role in it. To me, that feels about right, honestly. I have very mixed feelings about prison time and long sentences and what have you.

Considering what perpetrators of abuse get and people who kill their children, that feels about right. There were so many failures that led to that point of desperation where that crime happened. And it's like, you have to wonder with your grandmother if there were other mechanisms for, and especially the generational element there, right, if she'd been able to talk about it, if she'd been able to heal, if she'd been able to have some kind of accounting with her mother long before that moment, like, would it have come to that? And I think that that's like such a tragedy for everyone involved. It is. And yeah, like to your point, when people kind of like joke about it online and make those comments like, go girl, like girl power, whatever, girl boss, like you said,

it is a really traumatic thing to do and like go through. And especially like in my grandma's case where she did all of that with like a hand saw. So that's like, that's like another level of like strength. And like it's not easy. It's just not an easy thing to do. It's like not like you're watching a movie. You're literally doing it in my grandma's case. I mean, it's very disturbing. Yeah. The aftermath is far more disturbing, I think, than the act itself. Yeah. For sure. And like that is so traumatic. And that's actually the kind of thing that if you had a different jury, that could end in a death sentence. I mean, that's like those kind of things of like tampering with a body hiding evidence. Like those are the kind of things that end people on death row in a lot of cases. Yeah, which was like when I learned all of the little details, I was shocked back then. Like, wow, you must have had a really good lawyer. Like two years for doing that. When you do something like that, I do think it should be required to go through like a mental health evaluation, stuff like that. Because even to this day, like little things that my grandma can and like can't do.

It like shows me that like she may say that she blacked out and doesn't remember. But like I feel like her body and her. mind deep down, they do remember. For example, you can't watch horror movies around her. It's a big no. Like, you just can't do it. And I remember one time when I was a little kid, like before I even knew about this happening. I was like sitting on her living room floor and she was flipping through the TV channels and she put a movie on that she didn't know anything about. And it was hot fuzz, which I never like watched it past that point. But I think it's like a police movie. It's like a comedy, but rated R. It's kind of gory. And she didn't know what it's about and she put it on.

And literally a scene came on right afterwards of somebody's head getting chopped off. And she like lost her mind and turned it off. Was just like frazzled the rest of the day. And that was before I knew anything. And this was years after the fact. So it just goes to show that even if she were to say she doesn't remember and she blacked out and whatever, her body definitely still remembers and her mind still remembers. And that's very, it's just very traumatic. And it is a tragedy.

I don't feel like she did it with the intent of getting justice. I truly think she snapped. And like that probably is not an outcome that she wanted to live with. Like that's a heavy. I always think, you know, I have three little kids. I always think when my husband goes out of town, what happens if somebody breaks in? Would I like shoot them to protect my family or like something like that? And the answer is yes, because I would never let anything happen to my kids. But living with that would be so traumatic and like hard the rest of your life, even if you were doing it to protect your loved ones. Yeah, yeah. You guys probably know Tara Newell, who was involved in the Dirty John case and ended up ending his life in self-defense. And like, I'm sure that's like,

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Sarah, for you, and I'm sure you've thought about this a lot, unfortunately, the case did go to trial and then it was dismissed by a judge. And I think sort of two questions for you. Do you feel like people understand the difference between, because I feel like something people get very hung up on. Like, for instance, people are always coming, like people, and this is not a good fatal argument because I've addressed all of these things ad nauseum in excruciating detail on the show. So I'm like, well, if you have questions, about that family court judge order like please tune in you know season two episode seven trust me i came with all the receipts before i started talking about this and timelines and everything but people will be like well andrea's sister got her kids back Andrea's sister wasn't charged with a crime and i'm like that doesn't mean that she didn't do it like there's a lot of people like murder like the clearance rates in most states are under 50 50 percent that means people are out here get murdered nobody's being held accountable more often than not and do you think like people understand that or do they like has there been a little bit like well your dad went to court and they

said there wasn't evidence like was there any sort of like has he had supporters i would say nine times out of 10 people are on alissa's side and they think that it was this horrible miscarriage of justice and they were saying that in the comments when it was being live streamed on tv right so like everything i was feeling most of these people were seeing and kind of confirming those feelings in the moment, which was like such a blessing. You know, out of all true crime media coverage that can be horrific, that was such a blessing for me. But he does.

He has the occasional supporter. I'll see like a random comment that's like, I believe you're right. But nine times out of ten when I see those, people usually don't know the whole story. They aren't familiar with it. And sometimes it can be like politically motivated, which is very, very strange because my dad talks a lot about politics too. So like I'll see like, you're right. All white liberal women are crazy.

so you didn't kill your daughter. You know what I mean? And it's, I don't take those things seriously, to be totally honest with you. But yeah, I mean, it does happen. I think it's just like a numbers game. You know, it's never going to be 100% of people feel the same way. That's not realistic. But yeah, most people are on my and Alyssa's side. I think the evidence is just so clear. It doesn't seem like you're very controversial, which like must be nice girl. Anyway, what could that be like? So, but you know, I wonder for you, given the status of things, what does justice look like for you now? Yeah, I mean, it's hard. I feel like there are shades of justice, if you will. And I think one form of justice that's already happened is that

the world knows Alyssa's story. I don't need a judge or jury to tell me what my dad did, right? I think that when all evidence points one way, when 99.9% of people see it the same way, that is a form of justice. But there is one last unresolved item in Alyssa's case, and that's just bringing her remains home. It was something that was never really important to me. I'm not a deeply spiritual person in that way. You know, I separate her soul from her physical remains, if that makes sense. But now that seems to be all that's left. And so that's what I'm pursuing. I just want to bring her home to like rest in peace. Yeah. And this might be a little bit of a strange question, but in light of the fact that he's probably not going to ever be held legally accountable for this crime. Like, what is the outcome

that you hope with regards to your dad? To be honest, I think my focus is just more of Alyssa. She's fallen through every single system. This is a child who CPS investigated our family very early on. Alyssa told a teacher that she was being abused. When she got older, our father called CPS and the police to say that Alyssa was falsely accusing him. When she went missing, the police didn't investigate for six years. When it finally went to trial, this prosecutor didn't even know the case. So it's like, Alyssa fell through the cracks of every single system designed to protect children. So was I really surprised with this outcome? No. And do I expect a miracle to happen to hold my father accountable? Unfortunately, also no. I think that's just the system that we're playing with.

And for my dad, I think karma, if you will, looks like him dying alone, which is currently what's happening. All of his family believes that he did this. He only has one family member that will even talk to him. So for a man who had six children, right, he started having kids in the 70s. And he imagined this, you know, great retirement on a bunch of land with all of his grandkids running around. And now he's, you know, in a small condo in an East Arizona. and nobody talks to him. So I think that's really like the only form of justice or karma, if you will, that he'll

ever see. And for me, that's good enough. That's a pretty tough fate, you know, all told. And I appreciate that. I mean, I think he's sort of made these inferences to you of like, oh, ask me on my deathbed. Truly a wild thing to say. But like, it doesn't seem likely that he would ever take accountability for his actions.

No, I don't think so. Yeah, no. I'm confused why he maintains his innocence if he told you that, because I feel like that statement completely contradicts him being innocent. Also, you live in the same town as him, right? Not in the same city anymore, thank goodness. But he's, you know, like 50 miles away or something. So he's not far, and he knows where I live. But I mean, yeah, to your point, I think when he told me that in 2017, I think he didn't think the world would hear that. This was far, before I was getting a ton of media coverage, far before I started a podcast. I was just like a girl working with police, right? So I don't even know if he knew I was recording, but it was

legal. Arizona's a one-party consent state, so don't come for me. He taught me that. So in short, I think- The number of times I have Googled, what is the one-party consent? You've got to follow the law. People bring me recordings, and I'm like, oh, I really want to use this. I'm going to look the, what's the state? Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah, I think that he didn't think people would hear it. And once they did, then he just started backtracking. It was like, oh my gosh, like, I'm getting too close to that fire, right? But I think that's what he lives for is just, like, making me miserable and taunting me and trying to discredit everything that I do. That's, like, the only thing he has left in life. Yeah, that felt listening to that piece of audio, I was like,

oh, this is so manipulative. Just like, oh, like, maybe I'll tell you someday. I mean, that would just like, yeah, that just felt like a way to kind of poke at you. Not like, oh, I'm going to take a capability. Yeah. Well, he starts so kind in the beginning of the conversation, right? Like, you're doing okay? Like, it's so great to see you, blah, blah, blah. And then once I'm like, well, I think you killed my sister, then he's like, come to the deathbed. That's how he is. He gets very upset and very angry. And, you know, you can hear that in the conversation because he's like, I guess you aren't here to reconcile. And it's like, no. Like, in what planet would I want to reconcile with you? Yeah, it's just horrible. And I hate it so much. And it's hard because I hope he'll give me those answers. before he passes, but I don't think he will. What I can say from personal experience, both in my own life and also on the show, you don't count on liars to give you facts. You don't count on people who have a very well-documented history of deception to give you the facts about a case you have to look for, you know, other sources.

That was part one of my conversation with Sarah and Courtney, but there is so much more to get into, so we will be back next week with part two. Thank you for listening. Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Carmuch. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters.

On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers. in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca.ca.ca.