Nobody Should Believe Me - When True Crime Hits Home with Sarah Turney and Kourtney Nichole, Part 2

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Andrea continues her conversation with The Final Hours hosts Sarah Turney and Kourtney Nichole about the realities of creating true crime content. They talk about the emotional toll of repeatedly telling difficult stories, navigating criticism and threats online, and the complicated relationship between advocacy, journalism, and lived experience. The three also discuss the responsibility creators and audiences have to center victims, follow the evidence, and remember the real people behind these cases. *** Listen to The Final Hours: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-final-hours-with-sarah-turney-and-kourtney-nichole/id1872821250 Try out Andrea’s Podcaster Coaching App: https://studio.com/apps/andrea/podcaster Order Andrea’s book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!   Subscribe on YouTube where we have bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@NobodyShouldBelieveMePod Follow Andrea on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit: https://www.munchausensupport.com/ The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and we're back with the second half of my conversation with two of my favorite creators in True Crime, Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Today, we're continuing our conversation about being creators in a space that is so personal for all of us. If you want even more, nobody should believe me, head on over to our subscriber feeds on Apple and Patreon to get exclusive access to Nobody Should Believe Me after hours. This month, we're talking about the Netflix documentary, Trust Me,

the false profit, which was excellent and such a compelling story. We also have an episode coming up about maternal instinct, which we got a lot of requests for. And hey, if you haven't left us a review on Apple or Spotify yet, doing so is a big help. We are an independent show and we're entirely powered by listener support. We appreciate you all so much. And if you want to share your thoughts on today's episode or anything else, you can hit us up at hello at nobody should believe me.com. We love hearing from you. We will be right back with the second house. of my conversation with Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Fall might be on its way, but it is still warm outside, and that is bad news for hot

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them. They get softer with every wash, and I take betting seriously at this stage of my life. I'm busy and I have a four-year-old who still wakes up in the middle of the night because he needs to go potty or his fox stuff he fell on the floor or he just really needs a cuddle right now. So you know when I'm in my own bed it better be a top-notch experience. Upgrade your sleep with Bowling Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bull and branch.com slash believe with code Believe. That's Bull and Branch, B-O-L-L-L-A-N-D-B-R-A-N-C-H dot com slash believe. believe to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. Two and five Canadians will hear the words you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research.

Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Registered today at pmcf walk.ca.ca. Obviously, all three of us entered this space telling our own stories and have been off and on telling them again and again in various contexts. And that can be really exhausting. And I think people who have not sort of been through that experience of being really open in that way and sort of opening yourself up to questions about it, whether it's in a media interview or like, at a cocktail party, you know, when people are just like, oh, what do you do for a living? And I'm like, do I want to tell this person what I actually do for a living? But like, how have you guys handled that process and obviously especially intense for you, Sarah, of like, it can be such a challenge

to like conserve your emotional energy and not just ruminate on those unanswered questions and ruminate on the miscarriages of justice. I know for me, I was just chatting with another survivor who is the subject of our season six and someone who was involved with the case in season five. And we were talking about, you know, these are the three cases in our lives, are all cases where justice was not served. And all three perpetrators are still living with very, you know, in some case, very young, like vulnerable children. And we were talking about just this maddening thing of like, we've exhausted all the avenues of justice. And yet we know justice hasn't been served. And like, how much do you keep actively trying? Do you knock down every door? Call the police, if you call the police one more

time, if you call the police 50 more times, if you show up at the sheriff's house every day, it's like, you know, you sort of just can go forever. If you are that kind of person that just really, really needs, like really feels a strong drive that justice be served. And how do you sort of cut that off for your own well-being, for your own sanity, and sort of knowing that at some point continuing down this path or this other path is sort of not going to be effective, but it also never feels like enough. And so I wonder for you, Sarah, like, how have you, yeah, you've been in the public eye for so long about this case and you still talk about the case. And I just asked you about the case, you know, yeah, how have you navigated that? How do you keep up your endurance

with it? Yeah, I mean, it's a balance that I've had to learn over the years. And at first, It was extremely unhealthy. And I think it's important to talk about that. When I first started doing interviews about Alyssa, it would take me days to recover. I would just sit in the bathtub with a glass of wine and, like, stare at the wall for hours on end. I was refilling the tub again and again to keep it hot. And I really burnt myself out so badly, so badly, because I just wouldn't stop. I was doing interviews almost every single day.

And when I wasn't interviewing, I was working my traditional job or working on the podcast for my sister. there was no balance for me. There was no stop. I was working to like 3 a.m. It was insane. But slowly over time, one, I think it becomes easier to tell the story

because you're just used to it. You become a little bit more well-versed in it. And, you know, as much as I might get flack for this, right? Because I think true crime, the audiences sometimes expect you to just nonstop cry about these things, right? You become numb to it. When you tell the same story a hundred times,

you're likely not going to have the same emotion. reaction. So slowly over time, I just kind of became more and more numb to it as I told the same story over and over again. That doesn't mean I don't have my moments. I think those moments just become more personal now when in the moment, you know, when I was doing my first dozen interviews, if you will, it was very fresh and reliving that. I would often cry and become very emotional. And now I feel like when I do these interviews, I tell the story and then I have those private moments off camera, which is more comfortable for me, even if it gets me some flack from listeners out there that think, I'm not emotional enough, you know, there's never a perfect family

member, there's never a perfect victim. I think it's just time and endurance and becoming more numb to the story. But in the end, you know, at the end of the day, when I'm curling up in bed, I'm never numb to Alyssa. And really, I think knowing that her story has had this greater impact on people that all never meet that she's never met is what keeps me going is that her story is genuinely helping people. Like I get messages. Like I got my sister out of abuse because I heard your sister's story. I turned my dad in because I heard your sister's story. And so any pain that I feel rehashing this really feels overshadowed by the good that her story is doing. So it feels like an net positive, if you will. Yeah, I absolutely relate with that. And I think I can, um,

could go on forever about like the pressure to perform your grief a certain way and all that. But I think when I was first, certainly in like the first season of my show, which was more about sort of my personal story and my personal journey. And this was the first time I was sitting down with people ever in my life who'd been through a similar experience. It's a very strange experience to have one of these perpetrators in particular that creates an entire alternate reality. And, you know, my very first interview was Hope Ybarra's younger sister. And it was, it was, was very, very emotional and I got emotional in the interview. I was emotional when I was doing my voiceovers and it was just a very different format to what it was. And I did not come in

with training as a journalist and I did not consider myself a journalist for the first couple of seasons. I became one on the job, which is how a lot of people become journalists. And so I think I approach it differently now than I did in the beginning just as a natural evolution. But I think what people also, like, you do have to develop a tolerance, right? because if you're going to be talking to other people about their stories, like, you also can't pull the attention by becoming emotional yourself all the time. And that's like, that's a really learned skill is like if someone is telling you a very sad or shocking story to not overly react and sort of save that for when you're after, because you want to give them that space and that and that

support. And I'm interested to like hear from both of you, like how you sort of interact with true crime that you're not working on. Because for me, I'm like you, Sarah, I was never a big true crime, like, girly before. You know, I watched Unsold Mysteries growing up and, like, big sort of stories I would occasionally follow. But, like, I was not ever really super into it as a genre before I became a creator in the space. And now people tend to send me, and I'm sure they do to you guys, like, a ton of stories, right? Oh, you should look into this. You should look into that. And, like, I cannot read about a case or, like, consume. true crime in general, with some exceptions that I'm not reporting on. And I think it's because

partly just because I'm always at my emotional capacity for like thing. Like I will not watch a movie, read a book, anything where something bad happens to children. I am like, I am 100% at capacity for terrible things happening to children all the time. It's all I do at work all day. And I feel like when I'm reporting on something, I think like it helps me actually not feel helpless, right? Like, there's such a profound helplessness when there's a crime that happened in your family and no one will investigate it. No one will do anything about it. And like that, I think, has been helpful to me and getting healing to me to sort of be like, okay, I can tell this story, I can help other people tell their stories. I can give them a platform to tell their stories.

I can do it with dignity and respect and empathy and make sure that it is tight as a drum. So, you know, most of the stories we tell are about perpetrators that have not been convicted. So, like, we have to do a lot of due diligence. And that all feels. like helpful and productive. Whereas when I'm reading stories or listening to stories or watching stories, I think it puts me back in that place of like, there's nothing I can do in this story. Whereas at least if I'm reporting on a story, even if it's a really, you know, some of the stories we've have been horribly sat and did take a toll. But like I still felt that yeah, it had those other positive aspects of like, I knew what I was doing it for. And I wonder like,

for both of you, what is your media diet outside of your work? look like and how do you manage that? I would say I'm kind of like you. When I report on these cases, it's kind of like a switch turns off my brain and I'm like, okay, I need to stick to my script because if I don't, I'm going to get emotional. And so I do stick to that. And I am kind of like you as well. Before I really started getting super serious on social media about constantly covering these cases, I would listen to so many true crime podcasts, true crime documentaries or whatever. But now I, that is like my entire life of what I constantly spend researching and in writing about and discussing online that I also am like you. It's very minimal. Occasionally, there will be a

documentary where it's like blowing up and super viral and I'm like, okay, I'll watch it. Like the crash, for example. I watched that not that long ago and it was pretty intense. But outside of that, I just stick to horror, which honestly some people would say, well, that's like the same thing. But it's not because I know it's fictional. It's fiction. Yeah. What I'm watching is it's not true. It's purely just for entertainment, which honestly, like true crime shouldn't be treated

as entertainment. It should be treated as like something you're listening to to contribute and like help in some way. So that's why when I'm watching these horror movies, I'm like, okay, this is entertainment. I can like unwind. I'm watching this and it's like not as difficult to like process, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people approach it that way.

And I know there's been really interesting research on how and why because it's like true crime is mostly women who consume it. And so it's like how and why people listen is like to have, which I think this is so fascinating, to sort of like, because they've had an experience like that that they're listening to and it gives them a sense of control and they can opt in or opt out and they can listen at their own pace and they can process it on their own time. And like, that just made me feel so good about the possibilities of the space. But yeah, like Sarah, same question for you. How do you relate with like? And even stories that you're reading that you're considering covering. Yeah. So I mean, I think just because of,

my profession, I feel the duty to consume true crime in certain aspects, right? To Courtney's point, if something's really popular, I want to watch it just so I know why people are interested, right? And also, I feel a duty to the podcast. I like to know what works out there and what doesn't. Because my goal is always to get people to care, like above the storytelling, above everything else, I want people to care about the cases I talk about. I think why I've been able to find that kind of secret sauce is because I do deeply care. And while I, can become more numb to my own trauma and my sister's story and all that, I have not become numb to these cases. And I always say, like, the second I stop crying about every case I cover is when I need to

walk away, it always sounds like so cringy to be like, I'm an empath, right? But I'm just like a deeply empathetic person. If I see a car accident when I'm driving by, I start crying because I'm like, oh my gosh, like people's days were ruined. They could be hurt. I get so overcome with emotion that I'm just a crier. Like, I cry probably every single day over something. So I do find myself really embracing true crime from more of a business aspect in that way. Like, this is really, really successful. What worked? And how can I apply that to the work I'm doing to get people to care about these cases? Because as much as I wish that true crime was just this thing that ran off of people's empathy, it isn't. There's a formula that makes things successful. And I feel a duty to really engage in those

things. But it is hard for me because I've been involved in these productions, right? I've done these TV shows. I've done documentaries. And so really my like BS meter is like off the charts when I watch a lot of these things. Because like I'm like, that's a leading question. They were asked to rephrase it this way. Like I just see it through a totally different lens. And I think some of the best productions I've ever seen are done by just using real footage and not trying to tell a story that fits a true crime narrative, if you will. Whenever they try to wrap it up in a neat little bow, I immediately scream BS.

So it's hard because I do consume it to make sure that I know what's going on in the industry and I can apply that to my own work. But at the same time, I fundamentally do not enjoy it. To your point, Sarah, though, I think one of the best documentaries I've ever seen is Dear Zachary for that exact reason because it was literally a documentary filmed by the victims. one of his best friends who was making this movie for his young son. And I won't go more into it because it's like, there's like a huge twist that nobody saw coming, not even the filmmaker when he

was filming it. But to your point, some of the best things that I've ever witnessed are from the heart and from real footage of like the victims. Yeah, I've had a lot of listeners mentioned that documentary and I'm like too sad not watching. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, I do keep an eye on things in the space and like, you know, obviously that's how I ended up watching the Netflix film take care of Maya, which I've done 30 million episodes on at this point. And yeah, like seeing the way that that was edited so manipulatively and like the sort of Franken bite reality television lens that they put on that. And I think it's just like that is like the worst of the genre. And to your point about like empathy and I think this kind of brings me to my next

question, we all kind of have this mixed role, right, of being and, you know, whether or not you guys sort of claim these titles or not, I'm interested to know where you have it, right? It's like, in some sense, like subject, right? Like we started off with our own stories, you know, and then by turns advocate, right? I think we all have a strong advocacy angle to our work that's like out in the open. and then also investigative journalists. And those roles can have a lot of tension. And I wonder, Sarah, as you've sort of moved from the one to the other while still holding on to the pieces of, you know, that they brought you here, like, how have you navigated for that? What do you find

yourself needing to like sort of watch for blind spots? Because I think it's like, it can be a huge strength to have that relationship to, like, knowing what it's like and knowing what it's like to see your family get covered in the media and all that kind of thing. And then it can also be a hindrance and sort of lead you to have blind spots. And I certainly have seen that in some creators as well. So, like, yeah, how have you navigated that? I think I just try to be really upfront with my audience about it and really explain everything. My true guiding star, when I talk about true crime, is always the victim.

And then the family's second. And I think a lot of people get a little surprised by that that I'm not like on every family's side, but it's true. And unfortunately, I think I lived it firsthand knowing that I loved my sister dearly and I was out there, you know, making a website for her. But I was so blind that my own father was the perpetrator. So I have to leave space for that in these episodes as well, right? So I think, you know, of course, having a great team behind me always works. You know, that's always fantastic to have somebody take another look. And even though I won't use it in my research, I will look at things like Reddit.

You know, what does everybody think about this case? Is there something here that I'm missing, an angle that I didn't consider? So I think, you know, I do really rely on the true crime community for that, too, because my goodness, you know, when there's a Reddit thread or web sleuth thread with thousands and thousands of entries, I think most people are going to go through the majority of possibilities for these cases. People would be doing some true actual detective work on Reddit. Like true lawyerly, like digging through dockets, like real dedicated. I mean, this, like, again, you have when I was covering the Kowalski case, there was some

incredible, again, again, I would never use that as like a source, but like that definitely led me to some sources. It's like the Idaho four case. The whole community around that case is insane. Yeah. I mean, I think as long as you just like lay out the facts and I think that's kind of been my secret sauce is like, here's the timeline. I make it snarky if like police wait to, you know,

investigate a missing child or something. But in general, I try to insert so little of my opinion and just stick with the timeline and the facts so that people can make up their own minds because I always believe in like, who am I to tell you what to think? I'm just a person. Yeah. And what about you, Courtney? Like, where do you see your sort of like own history or just own lens kind of pressing down on you and like how do you navigate that? I don't know. I feel like when you have a family history like we've kind of all had, it makes you tell these. stories knowing that what you're reading in like some articles, like that's not all to the story. There's always like 10 more layers beneath. And I think I'm kind of like Sarah in the way that

the cases that I talk about usually are all unsolved. I lay out the timeline. I lay out strictly just the facts. I don't speculate. I don't go off on a tangent. Like I just stick to my script. At the very beginning, I talk about the victims, like in who they were, their personality, like what they loved. And some people get annoyed with that, but then it's like the least you could do, like the bare minimum is like learn who the person we're talking about was. Like that's, that was who they were. They were loved. Like they were here on earth just like you and me. They deserve that respect as well. And then I go into like the facts and the timeline and all that. And then at the very end, I kind of lay out like all of the certain possibilities of like

what could have happened. The most likely theories. Because I'm also like Sarah, like I'm not going to be overly biased and like tell you what to think. think about this case. At the end of every story that I cover, I just want you to basically just remember the person that I'm talking about and like the case itself. And what's been like tricky with me is I always want to do it with the most respect possible because I know how it can feel when people are like telling your story online and they're really rude or they're just like not careful with what they say. And so it's been interesting as like I've changed over the past six years. I can tell you now, like, I'm way more, not only like, responsible, but like I,

my ability of researching has, like, improved so much from, like, when I first started, because I've also, like, I'm not a certified journalist. Like, I've learned, like I've taught myself. There isn't actually a certification for it. I don't. I don't. Like, part of me, it's like imposter syndrome where I feel like a fraud if I call myself a journalist. But I do spend so much time researching these cases, these stories and, like, fact checking in and like. Yeah. So you're do you're doing the journalism. I had the same thing for a long time. And then I worked with a couple of journalists who I was like very in my award winning and like, who were like, you're a journalist. Like you're doing journalism. And I was like, you know what? You're right. I am. People are out

here calling Take Care of Maya a documentary and they got nominated for an Emmy for their research. I'm like, would love to see that research. Would love to see those notes. Please fill me in. Caitlin Keating, open invitation to come on this podcast, discuss your research process. You know, and I was like, you know what? Yeah. Like, I am. I absolutely am now because it's doing the thing. It's an act, right?

It's like there are many, many famous journalists that, you know, Bob Woodward is one who did not go to journalism school. They became journalists on the job. So, yeah, I hear that. I know. And it's so funny because I feel like I still struggle with that, honestly. And you asked a question earlier about, like, how much do you tell people when they ask? Like, what do you do? Well, first of all, I never say anything. I basically just say I was stay at home mom, like, just because I don't really, I just don't bring it up. My husband, on the other hand, he's the first one to be like blabbing. Like, this is what she does. And then it like puts me on the spot, which scares me. But, and like, you know, it does make me feel like, I don't feel like I'm a fraud, but it is like that imposter syndrome where like I don't want to call myself a journalist because I never went to school for it. But on the other hand, like, in any other field, I would say on the job experience is like better than.

sometimes going to school. And so I have to remind myself, like I am, like I am practicing what they do. And it's hard. And it's kind of funny because there are a couple of like actual news reporters on TV that follow me. And I'm like, why are you following me? Like you're actually a reporter. But I have to remind myself, like I am trying to do it responsibly. And I feel like I'm doing the same thing as them. I just don't have that schooling to like back it up. I mean, yeah, I move for all of us to sort of embrace that role because I think also just being 44, I mean, I'm the oldest person on this call. Like, I've seen the media just become something totally different throughout the course of my career. And I'm like, okay, so what? You have to be working at a newspaper to be a group? Like, where, what news paper? Like,

in what world? You know, it's like, oh, and like, that's owned by Jeff Bezos and that's our, it's like, okay, guys. Like, our old, like, sanctity of media is so gone that I think anybody who's sort of just outright dismisses material that comes from a, TikTok account or a podcast or something. Like, that just makes you sound old guys. Oh, yeah. For sure. I was heading into the gym the other day and I was sporting my new Sloan hand-woven sling bag. And I kid you not, a woman stopped me and said, I love your bag. I have the same one. Is it from Quince? And listener, my eyes lit up because I love meeting a fellow Quince fan in the wild and it genuinely happens a lot. As Quince's offerings have expanded, I am really loving their

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I have heard from my male podcast friends, the couple of them that I have that they do also get complaints about their voice. So I'm like, hooray, gender equity. Like, do you read? reviews of your show? Do you read Reddit threads about you? Do you read the comments on your post? Like how engaged with the online discussions of you and your shows are you? I mean, I read it. I read it, but I think I've learned to filter out what can make me better and what's just mean. I even went to a voice coach about my vocal fry and he was like, girl, I think you're just

like taking the comments too hard. But because I did that, I'm like, okay, well, I try. I went to a professional. It is what it is. This is my voice, right? You have a lovely voice. People can really fuck off with that. People can really fuck off with that vocal fry stuff. I'm like, just say you don't like women talking. Just say you don't like it when women get to talk. Yeah, but if there's something constructive in there, I try to take that. So I do read it, but I don't let it all get to me anymore like I used to. Yeah. What about you, Courtney? I'm kind of the same. I do read the reviews and like the comments and stuff, specifically of the Final Hours podcast because I just want to make sure that we're like improving

and I want to I want to produce something that our audience will like. And so I do read that. But unlike Sarah, I do take it personally. It's really hard because I feel like I wear my heart on my sleeve. So it's really hard to like read the comments, but that are like strictly just mean. Like, I don't like their voice. They just sound horrible. That's what we usually get. It's always that. So if you like the final hours, leave us a good review, please that you love our voices. Because that's not something I can change. If you genuinely think that I could be doing something better in terms of reporting or whatever, like laying out the timeline, please, I'm all open to hear that.

But if you're just saying you don't like my voice, that is so hurtful. I've had that experience where I'm listening to a podcast and I'm like, great content, don't think I can deal with this person's voice. Never in my life would it occur to me that I needed to go and leave a one-star review because I didn't like that person's voice. Like, not in a million years would I ever be like, I need to go tell this person that their voice sucks. This is important. People need to know. It's just a whole mind that I don't understand. I know. I'm with you on that because I am also picky about like what I listen to or like

audiobooks. If I don't like the narrator, I'm like, okay, I'll just read it or whatever. But I get to have your preferences. Yeah. Like, I've never thought, well, I'm going to go and say the rudest thing I can possibly think of to somebody. Like, I would never do that. So it baffles me. And then online with like my comments, I will upload a video. And then I'll probably spend the first like maybe 10 minutes reading the comments and trying to interact and stuff. But after that, I just don't because you never know what you're going to get. And a lot of people on TikTok and stuff.

And also I found Facebook, Facebook is a different world. Like there are so many. Yes. There are so mean on Facebook. I'm like so confused. Like why is the audience? It's like, mean boomers or what? Yeah.

It must be. Because I'm like, why is the audience so different? Like sometimes I'll get really rude comments on TikTok, but you can tell just a young person who wants to be a bully, whatever. But on Facebook, it's like personal. Like, they will drag you. When I first launched the show, I read everything. I read every review. I like responded to every comments.

And I did less and less of that as I got into. And I think for me, like the turning point, there's been a couple of big turning points. Like as the show got bigger, you know, when I was covering the Kowalski case, I got quite a bit. like I got my first death threats. I got quite a bit of like paint mail and comments that were just like really, you know, ugly stuff. And so that kind of made me back off it a little bit. And I, and at the beginning of this year, I just made the choice. I was like, if I am going to go for, because people are pretty savage about like, and it's, I have some suspicions about who are those anonymous, you know, Reddit commenters and whatever else. There's a lot of controversy

about my work. I don't think it should be controversial to tell the truth about child abuse cases, but this is an activity that's not appreciated by some groups of people in parents' rights, communities, and there's a very strong faction of people that do not want people to talk about much house and bioproxy abuse. They push the idea that it doesn't exist. And so I realized, I think, and then really made kind of the final decision at the beginning of this year. And this is a massive privilege as a creator because I have an operations manager, Nola, wonderful, who reads in the comments, keeps an eye on the online conversation, reads all the emails that come in. And so she does share helpful feedback. So I'm always like, oh, if it's like a salient critique of my work,

like, I definitely want to hear it. But I cannot go and like be in these spaces and read the things that people are saying about me because I will not be able to go forward with this work. And it will affect how I approach my work. And it's very important to me to like not lose my nerve, you know, because I do report on some really scary people. And if I let that, I know if I let that online chatter get in my brain, get in my head, make me sort of doubt myself or just remember how scary some of the people that don't like me are, that it will inhibit me and I really don't want it to do that. So I'm kind of like I'm really making a huge effort to like not read anything about me other than the Patreon,

because the Patreon, you know, and some people might be like, Oh, you only want to hear the people who are nice about you. Honestly, I feel like my Patreon community is pretty good at like just letting me know their opinions of everything. And they're very smart and I get like lots of interesting feedback from that community. But it is, you know, obviously it's a, it's a select group. So it's just not as like off the wall as these other spaces. But other than that and reading whatever is filtered to me from the main line, like I just don't read any of it anymore. And I also really strongly feel and I've always felt this way, right?

that like you do see those creators in the space that really get in there and argue with people. And I'm like, I have put this all out for public consumption. And everyone is allowed to have an opinion about it. They're allowed to express an opinion about it. Like that's part of being a creative professional. It doesn't mean that I need to interact with it. But I'm also not going to be like, that's not what I meant. I mean, that's just like that's such a waste of energy.

If I genuinely think I've gotten something wrong and I get a bunch of feedback, for instance, I recommended a podcast. about J.K. Rowling that was made by Barry Weiss and didn't know it. And I was like, oh, shit. And so I went back and then people were mad at me that I said it. Then they were mad at me that I retracted. And I was like, whatever. But I felt strongly about that one. But like, you know, there have been those instances. But in general, I'm just like, yeah, people are going to have their opinions and they're entitled to those. There's no much you can do at the end of the day. Like, no matter what you say, someone's going to be upset. Have you guys ever had an instance where you covered a case and

then people involved or just like in the community were so like I guess sending you death threats that you want to take the video down. I know I have personally like a few years ago. It's only happened to me one time, but it scared me so bad that I did take the video down and I've never touched another case in like that area given the circumstances. Like it was a gang related case out of Fresno. And then some of the people were like sending me death threats like about or from the gang. I should say.

And I was like, no. I'm immediately taking this down because I. I mean, I have kids, so I'm like, okay. Yeah. No. That's super scary, for day. Yeah. I mean, the threats I've gotten have been about my interview with Dr. Sally Smith, which

who was the made the villain of the Netflix story. And by all accounts, according to the evidence, which is the largest court docket ever in that county in Florida. She was, in fact, the hero of that story or one of all the evidence shows that her interventions likely saved my Akulski's. life. She was made an absolute villain dealt with, still deals with, death threats, hate mail, threats to her family, threats to her pediatric practice. Reputation was trashed. Really nasty work. So as you can imagine, when I presented her as a human being and presented the truth about her, people were very, we're really not happy about that. So that's the most I've gotten. And that one, I really remember, I flew to Florida to interview her. And I remember walking away from that and being

like, I am going to get so much flack for this and I am good with that. And just being like, this is so important. And again, it wasn't, you know, Courtney, it sounds like there was a real possibility of danger. I've never gotten to that point where I was like, oh, someone's like acting in a way that was scary. It felt like bluster. The other one, I got a lot of pretty nasty messages was that was when I had gypsy rose blanchard on. And that was just for the act of having gypsy rose blanchard on. So it more felt trolly than jarring. genuinely threatening. And I think like your format's a little different. Like by the time I'm publishing something, if it's part of a main season, not necessarily for every like weekly

episode, but like the stuff I'm most likely to get push back on is that sort of more thorough documentary style stuff. I've done so much work. I know I'm standing on such solid ground by the time I put it out there that like I probably have gone through that whole sort of cycle of like what is the reaction going to be and I've just sort of like dealt with it. I, I will say I was nervous about, and it's not to say that I never like get scared, but like this last season, season seven of the show came about because it was another Sally Smith case. So take care of Maya, they focus mostly on the Maya Qua case and they zoom out to these four other cases who are all people that say they were falsely accused of abuse by Sally Smith.

Spoiler alert, if you haven't listened to that season, none of these people were falsely accused by anyone. There was very strong evidence that they had all put their children in the hospital. So not just abuse, but like severe abuse. And in the case of John Stewart, not the beloved late night comedian, a Florida man, he was charged with the murder of a baby and his girlfriend's son. And there was extremely compelling evidence that he was guilty. It didn't, the charges ended up being dropped against him.

But I had mentioned his case very briefly. And then he heard that mention during our third season and was angry and got in touch with me and said, you've got everything wrong and you're just. just promoting Sally Smith and she's evil and blah, blah, blah. And so I said, okay, well, if I've got something wrong, because I do take that really seriously. Like, if these are real people, he's a person, this was his real life, his real name, I feel a huge obligation to get things right. And so I was like, okay, if you think I'm wrong, you're very, you know, I didn't say very much about his case to begin with, but I was like, if you want to send me records,

if you want to come on the show and talk to me about it, I'm very open to that. I for sure thought would say no. He said yes. He ended up sending me a bunch of stuff. I talked to him for three hours. I did months of research on his case. As soon as I asked him a few follow-up questions, he became enraged and started sending me ranty emails. I think Sarah, probably this behavior is going to sound familiar. Just like B word, C-word, ranty emails, a complex individual about John Stewart. But that one I have to say, because he has a very long history of not only the violence against this child, but domestic violence. Yeah, he did make me a little nervous. And I was expecting to get 80,000 more emails.

And interestingly, once that aired, we have not heard from him since. I sent him multiple requests to like, I told him, hey, when I'm done with my investigation, I will let you know and you can come back on and I can share with you what else we've found. and he did not take me up on that. And I definitely have my moments where I'm like pressing publish like this, you know. So yeah, Sarah, what about what about you? Yeah, I mean, I get the occasional threat or whatever, you know, nothing that really scared me. But I think that's because of like how I grew up, you know, and I grew up with a murderer and domestic terrorist. And I think even though I'm that person who like, I'll cry if I hit a butterfly with my car, real story has literally happened.

I'm also the person who like doesn't back down to bad people. I just I and I'm not like recommending this to people like if you get to death threat please take it seriously tell the police right but I think just because of how I was raised and growing up in West Phoenix after Alyssa was gone I just like ran wild right with adults and really scary situations and and all that that I just I'm not afraid I don't allow people to scare me and I get in this like fight or flight when I see those things and I'm usually in fight. And I'm not saying it's a good thing, right? But I just have the aspect of like, come at me then. You want to say you're going to kill me? Okay, come to my house. I would cry. I would straight of cry. We've got the full spectrum of responses to death.

Right. But I mean, I live in this heightened state of awareness because I know that I'm my dad's number one enemy. He knows exactly where I live. He's very calculated. He has all the time in the world. So I feel like because I know that I have a murderer after me all the time, it doesn't face me as much. I mean, I will tell you, like, I feel that because the most nervous I ever was was when I, so I talked about my personal experiences in the first season of the show. But again, because I was not in full journalism mode and I didn't just didn't understand how to do FOIA requests and all that stuff that I learned along the way, wasn't until the second season that I fully reported on my sister's case and probably would not have done it. probably would do more thorough work now. But I did. I got all the documentation, was able to talk to the doctor who was not able to share details, but did confirm that she wrote a 37-page single-spaced report detailing the abuse she had found in those medical records and went through the files with

Detective Mike Weber. And I used my sister's real name because I wanted people to keep eyes on the situation, et cetera. And that was the most nervous I ever was. Because my sister's, her actions are not in the normal playbook of what people do. And someone like that is so unpredictable. There is no limitation to their behavior. If you're willing to do that to your child, there is no limitation on your behavior. And so same thing. It's just like, well, like she was my scariest monster under the bed or whatever. And so that was the most nervous I ever was. Yeah, you can't just walk around scared all the time. Like, I get it. Like, you have every right to be scared when you get these death threats and stuff. But when you're living in that heightened state all the time,

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I want to ask you a question about, Sarah, about a comment that you made that really intrigued me when we had our last recording. Because you've been in this space for a long time. You've been very successful in it. you've had a huge impact and are really to be commended on your work. But you said, like, I don't like doing it. Yeah, I don't like it. That was so interesting to me because I think like, and I wanted to ask you to expand on it and kind of ask you to Courtney, like what your sort of feelings about the work are because what has surprised me, yeah, I for sure came into the space. I was like, I don't want to be here. Like I would much rather have had this whole thing not happen.

continue to have a relationship with my sister and her not be this person and have a relationship with my niece and nephew, which is how I thought my life was going to play out. I would much rather have that than a successful true crime podcast. Trust me. Right. But I also have found the work is really difficult, but I've also found it really rewarding and really, and there are so many aspects of the work. The material is different, but the work, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy give me a thousand page court docket any day, like to dig through, and like, I love it. You know, so I have found a lot of pieces of the work using all the storytelling skills I developed as a novelist and using it in this different way and flying around the country and sitting

with people and meeting them and going to these. It's like there's a lot about the work that I really genuinely love. And I feel like that's one of the things that sustains me, right, is that it's not all just like sad and, and there are these moments of like beauty and hope and connection and sort of catharsis and like you get to see all these beautiful things in the work. So when you say that like you don't like the word, like what does that mean for you? And like how are you still like, how are you still doing it if you feel that way about it? Yeah. I mean, thank you for giving me the chance to clarify, right? I think first of all, I understand that so many families see the podcasting ecosystem, if you will, the content creation ecosystem, no matter what social media platform or

podcast, YouTube, whatever it is, right? It's really become the secondary means of justice. will. And I think why I don't like it is because I feel like that system shouldn't exist in the first place or shouldn't have to exist, right? In an ideal world when a child is abused, when somebody gets murdered, whatever it is, it should be thoroughly investigated, it should go through the courts and they should get justice. I don't believe that families should have to rely on this system that we've kind of built within true crime, but they do. And the reason why I keep doing this work is because like you said, Andrea, right, it's the silver lining of it all, the hope. you know, the impact that you have on these people. And I think really changing the true crime

genre, which is something I'm like coming around to. I get told all the time, like you changed how a lot of this operates. And I'm finally kind of understanding that more and more. I think that's right. You're one of the biggest creators in the space that has that lens. I mean, I think you should absorb that compliment. Thank you. I think it's hard because I got so much horrible feedback when that first started happening. And now people are a lot more wonderful. But it's like, What was the horrible feedback that you got? When I first started speaking about ethics and true crime, I was targeted, I think, by like a group of creators. You know, it happens.

True crime podcasting is very high school for anybody who may not know. And it was like, you're ungrateful for the system that helped you get justice for your sister. Like, you're just being mean now. Like, because all I said was like, hey, I could have been treated better when I was doing a dozen interviews every two weeks or whatever. And I just got this like really harsh feedback. from the select group of people. And I hadn't really gotten that before. I feel very lucky that most people who hear me talk about my sister's case are really nice and empathetic. And so all of a sudden I get this barrage of like these people kind of bullying me that I was like, oh my gosh,

like should I be grateful? You know, like I go through all these emotions. And of course, in the end, I'm like, you can be grateful for the coverage while still pointing out ways where people can improve and minimize harm. And if you want to talk about real journalistic practices, right, that's journalism right there is minimizing harm that is one of their key components one of the key things they teach you i was a journalism major before i experienced true crime journalism that i changed to english so i know a little bit i took like half the classes but yeah i think i keep coming back and i like the work i do because i know that i'm helping people in true crime but i don't like the physical work of it because i don't think it should have to exist i shouldn't have to make a

podcast about awareness for a child that was clearly killed by their parent that shouldn't have to happen. So it's hard. I think it's just incredibly difficult work that I take very, very seriously. Like, I have no pleasure in it outside of the impact of my work, if that makes sense. Yeah. And Courtney, how about you? And like, how do you deal with? I really feel that, Sarah, of like, and I feel that frequently, right, where I'm just like, I'm glad people have connected with the show. I love that we've gotten so much support. I would it's the show is completely independent. I wouldn't be able to make it without that. But like, I wish that there weren't so many cases for me to report. I mean, it's just like, it's like, this shouldn't be my job. Like, this shouldn't be a job, right? It's like, you shouldn't have to, like, it's such a imperfect tool to seek justice because we don't have subpoena power. We don't have, it's like we don't have any actual power. We have, I mean, we do in a sense, right? You have a platform. You have people listening to you. You have a voice, but you don't have any actual, like, institutional power

to, like, make people do the right thing or people don't have to interview with you. We report on cases, like, I can't get the kids medical records. You know, it's like I have to sort of piece together what I have. And so it's really like, there's so many cases where I'm like, if CPS had done an authority job, if family court had done their job, if the prosecutor had done their job, like, if any of these people had done their jobs, this wouldn't have ended up. with me. Courtney, how do you feel about the kind of like pressure? And like I understand like people reach out and they're desperate and that's like a hard thing because I can only cover, it's like I can only cover cases that I have the bandwidth to cover and that I have the necessary documentation

to cover and all of those. And I feel so much for these people. And that's part of why, you know, it's a huge part of why I founded the nonprofit Munchausen Support so that there was a place to send people for resources because I was like, oh, I can't. Like it was very, very clear to me very quickly that I could not answer every single one of these emails. And of course, that weight on me. And Courtney, I'm assuming, especially because of the size of your platform, that you just get a ton of people and you were talking about it, right? Like, please investigate this. Please look at this case. And it's like, you understand why people end up with us. But it's like, yikes. It's a lot. Yeah, I get so many people emailing me, DMing me. And I try my best to go through

all of them, but it's a lot. And it is overwhelming because I do want to give each story like a chance to be told. it's just hard. Like there's so many, I don't even think I could cover all of them if I even wanted to. And it's hard. I think my experience has been a little bit different because I was the one that brought my family story to the media. Like,

but the difference is the case was closed. There was like justice. It had been left in the past. But I was the one that like brought it to the media, not intentionally like wanting it to go viral. It just happened to. So I think that's where my experience is a little bit different. But I will say, growing up, I always wanted to be a journalist.

Like, that was what I wanted to do. And then I never went to school for it. And I felt like I missed my opportunity. Then I had kids and, you know, blah, blah. But doing this, I felt like it is re-igniting that passion to ask why, how. And, like, amplify those stories that would otherwise go unheard. I cover a lot of, like, really old cold cases where if it wasn't for social media, people all over the world, like, wouldn't hear about them.

And so I'm very passionate about that. And I'm very grateful that people support what I do and like watch the videos that I post because it's not about me. Like it's about wanting to connect with the families and like hopefully get their loved ones justice. And in a way that's respectfully because, you know, my family has also been through something similar. And at the end of the day, I don't want to be just another true crime content creator because there are so many of them. Like I want to actually make a difference. the goal would be to help solve the cases and not just talk about them. So I'm very grateful for the community that I have. So I guess we're like our final thing that I want us all to weigh in on. I think we are all passionate advocates for what true crime can do, like what true crime podcast, content, TikToks can do when it's done well and also have a lot of critiques of what goes on this space. So Sarah, like you've mentioned, you know, that like you got some blowback for those critiques. What would you like people to know who are either creating or consuming true crime? Like as a person who's lived it, if there's like one thing that you would want people to

sort of like add to their lens, right, keep in mind to be a better consumer of this media or creator of this media. Like, what would that be? It's hard because there's so many things. I think one really good. I mean, you can name more than one. It's like to be one. Okay, maybe two things, right? Like, one, this can happen to anybody, right? You could be 12 years old and one day learn from your uncle, you know, that there's this horrific crime in your family. You can be 12 years old and one day your sister goes missing and then later I find out it's your dad. This can truly happen to anyone. And I think the second question in terms of like, I get asked all the time, what's ethical? Can you recommend people who are ethical? Trust your gut and ask those questions. And if something feels off, it probably is. Yeah, what about you, Courtney? I would say, one, there's always more to the story than what you're seeing in hearing online or in articles. And then two, I know it can be really easy to get caught up in these like unsolved mysteries where it's like it feels like a horror movie or it feels like an episode of unsolved mysteries or like like Law & Order or whatever. It's really easy to get caught up in that.

But at the end of the day, you just have to remember that these are real people. And if you're listening to like recent cases in the past 20, 30 years, whatever, like, their family members could very well still be around and like watching what you post online about them. And so I would just say if you actively listen to true crime and you talk about online, just be respectful, just be empathetic. Like you never know who's watching and who, like how you're, like, how you're words could really hurt somebody. That would be my advice. Yeah, I love that. I think my, my critique, I think, is quite specific, probably just because I spend so much time on these,

but something I've seen in the space a lot is that there seems to be a deep obsession with the idea of wrongful convictions. And I had no idea before. I got into this, how rare those actually are. And I think they are sort of very overrepresented in the media. And again, this is my lens because we all have these sort of different paths, right? I was not the first person to cover my sister's story. The first person to cover my story, my sister's story, was my Kixenbaugh, journalist from NBC who presented her as a sympathetic, falsely accused parent. And that happened during an active criminal investigation into my sister for abusing her children. He included the full names and photos of her children. And those still remain

online today, including almost all of the cases that he covered for the Do No Harm series. Same thing. No regard for privacy. No regard for letting the wheels of justice sort of turn. and just absolute disregard for the evidence in that case. So I think it has given me such a lens on when people are uncomfortable with the truth, they can really lean into this other narrative that's just not substantiated. And the reality is, I think if you are hearing stories about people who have been, that's being presented as a wrongful allegation against someone who has harmed a charge, what I can tell you is that the various systems of justice are not putting resources

into prosecuting people who harm children. By and large, sorry, we don't give a shit what happens to children. That's what the overwhelming evidence says. And that should check out for everyone who's like been on this earth. Think about the people you know who've experienced abuse. did anyone do anything? Did that parent end up in jail? And I think also to just like think about in the lens of wrongful accusations. And just to say, I understand they happen. And when they happen, that is a horrible miscarriage of justice. And our entire system is set up so that what is the sort of 10 guilty men go free rather than one be falsely incarcerated. And that is how it works. Right. Like there are a lot more people walking around who've done crimes than people who end up being held accountable for those crimes. And especially, with children because they are such difficult cases. You have to have very strong evidence to convict someone of child abuse or a child murder, right? Like, because there's almost never a witness, and that abuse victim is voiceless. And so I think, like, don't sort of adjust your lens for different things. It's sort of like the evidence is the evidence, no matter what kind of case you're

looking at. And it's always what does the evidence show. And I've thought this many times that there's a lot of like, and very liberal, like Mike Hicksenbaugh is a, presents himself anyway as a very progressive journalist. And yet he is engaging in this deeply anti-science abuse denialism. And I think, like, people would never tolerate it, especially people who are left-leaning social justice types, who are, I think a lot of the consumers of the wrongful conviction stories because they think, oh, this system's so corrupt. And like, you're right, but it's not corrupt in that specific way. I don't think that you would tolerate this same narrative if it was an adult. who had sexually abused a child, you wouldn't say, oh, that person wasn't ultimately convicted

to what means they didn't do it. So if you're applying that lens to that, you should apply that to child abuse more broadly. So obviously, yes, I have a very specific. We're all very passionate. I know. I feel like that's what makes us like really good presenters because we can bring our own experiences when we tell these stories and like give people a heads up on like why something might be bad or like to look at things different. differently than they normally would because they haven't experienced it, you know, but we all have experienced something different. Yeah, lived experience is really important. And I think, like, and Sarah, you know, you've had your same experiences with CPS and all those failures and

people not believing. And it's like, and to remember that like this used to happen every time man was accused of sexual assault, right? They'd be like, and the conviction rates for sexual assault are like 2%. Do we think that that means 98% of the cases are false allegations? Like, no, of course not. And also just to give people some slack, like we all have our blind spots, right? And the only way to like adjust for those is to really be like diligent about the truth and the evidence. Absolutely. Well, thank you both for coming on. I would love to have you back on. You know, just if you, if there's anything interesting that comes along your way that you want to talk about on here, a standing invite. So thank you so much for being with us today. Of course. Thank you.

Nobody should believe me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Carmuch. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free,

from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaiaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll.

So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.