Nobody Should Believe Me - Your Questions About Season 2

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Host Andrea Dunlop and lead producer Tina Nole dive into listener feedback from season 2 of Nobody Should Believe Me. Addressing questions of gender issues and potential sexism around medical child abuse accusations, Andrea’s guest appearance on Real Crime Profile, pro-cop allegations and more. Plus, Andrea and Tina fill listeners in on what to expect for season 3 and beyond.   *** To support the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts or go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe where you can listen to exclusive bonus content and access all episodes early and ad-free, including weekly recaps of the Kowalski trial.   Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop  Buy Andrea’s books here.  For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com  Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.   Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here.  ***  Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

True Story Media tons of bonus content, including weekly recaps of the Kowalski trial, which is happening now, with me and our Florida pediatrician friend. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing always helps, as does telling friends about the show on social media or wherever you talk to people. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of

his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book,

and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth,

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careers to learn more. Hello, it's Andrea Dunlop, host and executive producer of Nobody Should Believe Me. I am here today with Tina Noll, founder of Large Media and lead producer on the show. And today we're going to answer some of the most commonly asked questions from season two and discuss some of the feedback we got. The season has been a crazy ride. We grew a lot and we heard from a lot of you. So, Tina, let's get into it. As you say, a lot of comments and questions about these cases and also a lot of personal feelings because this is a very complicated thing to be talking about and to be addressing in the multiple ways that you're addressing it on the show.

So I think one of the most important things to me as a woman is we've gotten a lot of feedback and conversations and questions about whether or not a diagnosis of medical child abuse is, quote, anti-women or are we sort of anti-feminist because we're, quote, attacking moms? Right. And I know you started off with really complicated feelings about this when we started making the show a few years ago. And I also have some complicated feelings about this. You know, sensitivity is around vilifying moms. And moms do get vilified and women get vilified. And it's this sort of black and white, you know, lens into what women are about. And you have said many times, the sort of three-dimensional

possibilities of what women are and can be. People either come at this as you're attacking women, you're attacking moms, this isn't possible. And I want to be mindful of how we are treating moms yeah you know how things sound so that was our original impetus we've been intentional about how we approach that as a topic yeah I agree and you know I'm a mom and a woman and a mom and and yeah I mean I think it's one of the things that we we deal with and we're going to really dive into next season is sort of talking about what are some of the real elements that complicate this, right? Medical misogyny is a real thing. I don't know a single woman who has not had a negative experience with the medical community. if you've been through a pregnancy, like you absolutely have had doctors, you know, sort of be dismissive of your pain, not believe you, give you terrible advice. I mean, it's impossible to go

through the healthcare system, which was not designed with women in mind, which included women only, you know, a couple of decades ago, really, and things like studies and clinical trials and that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, all those things are very real. And the data that we have about this abuse that we know says that it's 96% women who commit this crime. I've heard in some of our experts say, call it the female pedophilia, which sounds very scary to me. Yes. Well, actually, I'm glad you said pedophilia because one of the other things that was brought to my attention that I want to be intentional about

is that pedophilia is actually different than child sex abuse. And we can also talk about that. But yes, that this occupies the same sort of role where child sex abuse is mostly committed by men, that this is sort of the mirror of that. And so I think gender does play such an interesting role in these cases. Mark Feldman always says it's a crime of opportunity. And so

they are the people that have that opportunity. And I also think about sort of, again, being a mom in my 40s, like where we allocate power for women. And I think that people who are predators and people who are abusers are going to take a position of power where they can find it. And so for men, that might look like being the head of a church. And for women, really the only place that we give women power without question is over their children. And so I think that that might be part of the reason. We had a really interesting discussion with someone about this for season three that will come up, you know, and that it did come up a little bit in the Real Crime Profile interview, which we also got quite a few comments and questions about. Yes, I got, probably got more messages about that than any interview I've done. So we are going to talk a

little bit more about it. But, you know, it's just this question of sort of what is the feminist take on this? And my feminism is that women are complex human beings capable of all the things that male human beings are capable of, including abuse of power and including evil and violence. We had a great conversation with Bea Yorker this season, if you've listened to the complete unabridged conversation with her, where we talked about how our society's not good at recognizing female violence. But I think that to take the stance that women never commit crimes and never do harm is not a feminist stance. I think that flattens women to a single dimension. And I think that actually that is one of the things that we are up against in trying to get

people to recognize this abuse is that in various ways on both sides of the political spectrum, you see a sort of flattening of women where we're either casting women in the role of this sort of benevolent mother figure that would never be capable of harming her children, or on the other side that it's sort of this, you know, we should always believe women. And I think that's a really complicated concept for me because— Well, it flat out came up in Alyssa's case, right? Yes. The one juror in the case is the dentist who said women couldn't possibly be capable of this type of crime. Right. So it's running rampant in here. You just talked about the real crime profile. I don't know what to call it necessarily.

Debacle? what to call it necessarily, like a very confusing thing that happened. You were a guest on their show. A lot of the people that listened to the show believed that you were treated poorly by Jim. You disagree with that. So yeah, in terms of the actual interview, you know, I did an interview, two of the hosts were present. It was Jim Clemente and Laura Richards. You know, it was a really, I feel like I've overused this word, but like it was a spirited discussion. I mean, I appreciate that people were concerned about me and I got a lot of really nice messages about that interview. In terms of the interview itself, I think like to me, Jim Clemente is just an emphatic guy, right? He has strong feelings. He is a talker that's we all are that's why we

that's why we're that's why we're getting in front of microphones for hours at a time and I didn't I did not feel attacked during that interview I did not feel talked over I felt like I just was like you know I'm listen I'm just like I'm able to get in there and and kind of you know and like I think a lot of people pointed out, well, Andrea interrupted Jim a lot of times. And I was like, yeah, I probably did because, you know, I was trying to get my points across too. All in all, it was a spirited conversation. What did you learn from it?

Or what do you think people got out of it at the end? I mean, you know, I appreciated being on their show. Highly recommend actually listening to that episode. It was quite good. Yeah, it was a two-part episode. I appreciated the, you know, opportunity to talk to their show. Highly recommend actually listening to that episode. It was quite good. Yeah, it was a two-part episode. I appreciated the, you know, opportunity to talk to their listeners because, again, I felt like I got my points across. And whether or not people wanted to be like Team Lauren Jim or Team Andrea or just listening

in the middle and taking both in, that's totally fine. People are absolutely allowed to disagree with me. You know, I appreciated being able to talk to their audience. I think in terms of like the reaction that happened afterwards and some of the social media stuff, I did do a video on my Instagram addressing it. But like, I think it just shows how much of a third rail this whole topic can be. And that I think that was a situation where both of the hosts and myself, you know, we're all bringing like really pretty heavy personal experiences to this situation where,

you know, me, obviously you guys know with Laura Richards, I know she has talked publicly about having had a baby that spent some time in the NICU. I think Lisa also had a situation where she had a child that was ill for a while. Jim had a— Jim Clemente had some childhood illnesses of his own. And, you know, and also just has this history with crimes against children. And so I think it's like all of those perspectives are valid. And I don't feel like any of their feelings about it are invalid. What rankled me a little, obviously, they—

Your sister. They heard from my sister Megan and, you know, because I had mentioned briefly her situation and obviously that's something I've talked about in detail on the podcast. That's all out in the open. So they sort of chose to frame that in a certain way on social media that I didn't like. But in terms of their opinions on the topic or the subject, they're absolutely entitled to those. They have said they're considering doing an interview with Megan and Andy, and I will be their first listener on that because I'd be very curious to know what they have to say. Yeah, so I think it just, you know, it was really interesting. It certainly was a more antagonistic situation than I've had doing other podcasts. I think I've been doing a lot of podcast interviews, and by and large, I think podcasters are such great people, and I've had really good experiences. I think it was really interesting. And I, you know, I really appreciate having my beliefs challenged. They gave me a lot of food for thought.

You know, I did that interview when I was sort of just starting to dig into all of this Maya Kowalski documentation, and it gave me some real sort of things to think about as I was going through all of that and questions about possibilities that I maybe hadn't considered going in and some sort of really additional tools to check my own bias as I was going through that. So I appreciate the experience. It's like so worried about my sister. You're engaged. You cannot marry a murderer. I was sick, but I am healed.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Okay, let's switch gears a little bit. This has been very touchy. You were very honest about your feelings about Alyssa's mother, Brittany Phillips' death. Now, this is something we don't have a tremendous amount of details on in terms of like how she died, but you came out pretty aggressive on your thoughts and feelings about Alyssa and how, and her life as it relates to that. It's worth noting that you have spent a lot of time with Alyssa's family.

You know them very well. And you have a close relationship. And throughout that making of this season, we both got close to the family. So I would just say that because as I heard it, it's hard to—we often want to put our lenses on how it comes off to the audience. That's what we do 99% of the time that we're producing shows like this, that we're thinking always about how it's going to land in your ears. And in this particular case, you got some blowback about your response to Brittany Phillips' death and the fact that she's just no longer here to defend herself.

Yeah. And, you know, again, I want to say that I'm always interested to see how people react to things. And I, it was very interesting to see some of the reactions we got from that episode in parallel or in contrast with the reactions I got to my saying that I, I got a fair amount of people saying that I sort of went too easy on Hope. And so then it's sort of interesting to sort of contrast that with Brittany. And I think, you know, I did worry about that. I think we both, we both thought about that, about how that sort of might come across that I had expressed that I was relieved by her death. And I want to say that that's not because that I wished her to die. That was my honest emotional reaction in the moment. And I felt like you have gotten, you as the listeners have gotten a chance to know me well enough that I felt comfortable

sharing that with you. And I think where that comes from is being close with Alyssa. And also that, you know, I, myself, and we at Munchausen Support are working with survivors. We have these survivor support groups. And I have watched those survivors trying to deal with their mothers in their adult life and sometimes their involvement with grandchildren and that kind of thing. And now it's not the same. It would not have been the same for Alyssa because she did not grow up with Brittany as her mother, right? Laura is her mother. So it would have been different. And also because of Brittany's age. Brittany was young enough to have more kids. I think it's a reflection of how dangerous I believed her to be and not because I have no compassion for her.

And I didn't feel happy that she had died. I felt relieved and I felt sad. And I felt just sad that like this was a sad person that had a sad life. I mean, and that's not, I don't mean that in a sort of condescending way. I just mean like that was a sad, just the whole story was sad. Yeah, no doubt.

One of the things you talk about in season two is that you and I being full disclosure, relatively liberal, I'm very liberal, from Seattle, Washington, we recorded most of that season in Tarrant County, Texas, with a very, very conservative sheriff who is now running for office. And people accused us of being pro-cop, pro-criminal justice, and that kind of thing. Now, look, I get it. We were featuring a sheriff who is politically conservative. I had an incredible experience with that man. I'm still strongly, strongly against a lot of his political beliefs, and I still think he's a good human. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously,

also, one of our big collaborators on the show is Detective Mike. He is a friend of the show and is obviously somebody that you and I are also both close with. And, you know, I am extremely liberal. I did feel, I think, in some ways, some conflict about that, especially with this season, because we were so prominently featuring a law enforcement family. But I will tell you, you know, as much as like we disagree with their politics, they also disagree with ours.

And yet they trusted us enough to tell their daughter's story. And that's like a really beautiful thing that you don't see happening very much right now. And so I think like that actually has been such a good part of this experience for me is to be able to have this coalition of people that you just don't, I mean, you know, we also have Joe who is a trans person and is a prison abolitionist. So, I mean, this is quite the, you know, like this is quite the, quite the group and we all are very much in agreement

about the seriousness of this abuse and the need for laws to, to surround it. And we all are very much in agreement about the seriousness of this abuse and the need for laws to surround it. And so I think we can just hold those things together. And I would not describe myself as pro-cop, but with regards to these offenders, we know that if a police investigation doesn't happen, the chances of any protection happening for that child are sort of next to none. So I, in our current system, I don't see another way to handle it. And so I am pro-law enforcement getting involved in these cases. I think that's the only way to get the information you need. And it's the only way to sort of hold a perpetrator accountable.

And those two things can exist at the same time. You can understand that we have a corrupt and kind of broken criminal justice system in many ways. Police officers in and of themselves aren't bad humans, bad individuals, as we've experienced with Detective Mike. System still needs to be fixed. Right now, this is what we have. And without it, you know. Right. And I mean, I think like, you know, in terms of sort of people's beliefs about the criminal justice system, I mean, I think, you know, I think when it comes right down to it, yes, like, are there better systems we could sort of imagine for ourselves if we overhauled the whole thing? Yes. Do people still probably want law enforcement involved when people are preying on children? I think most of us, regardless of where we stand, still want that. Now, something I am aware of is that one of the calls to action that we make on this show is that if you suspect abuse, you should report it both to, you know, CPS and to the police.

I am very cognizant of the fact that not want to explore to be able to give people sort of more inclusive advice is if you are not comfortable doing those things, what are some other things that you can do? What are some alternatives? And so that is not something that I am knowledgeable about. So I definitely want to sort of find that information and be able to give people better advice. But you and I are not politically neutral, but on this show, we are, we have a wide tent. We want to help kids. I don't believe that that should be a political football. It's made into one a lot, but I think that like that is the sort of diversity of our coalition here demonstrates that. Yep. There's one other issue that came up a lot for you in comments, personal messages on Instagram.

Yes. So another question, and I think this is because it's just such a big part of the national conversation, is the question of trans health care for kids. And I got this question in two ways. So there were people that wrote in to me and asked me, you know, are you concerned that parents of trans children are going to be falsely accused of medical child abuse and sort of unfairly targeted because, of course, you are talking about medical interventions there? And then the other sort of version of this question that I got is, are you worried that perpetrators are going to use trans youth care as a way to perpetrate on their children. And so I think both of these concerns are really valid. And so I just wanted to acknowledge that I have received these messages and that what I really want is to get a pediatric endocrinologist to come on and talk to us and really like talk through this topic and, you know, just get some people that are more knowledgeable about

this because I actually think both concerns are really valid. I think that in this climate with trans youth healthcare being this total third rail topic, do I think that some, you know, that families could get swept up in something? Absolutely, I could see that happening. Do I also think that this is something perpetrators could use? Absolutely. Just the way that they use anything that is sort of not definitively diagnosable with a test can be a tool for perpetrators. And that's the way that we see, you know, issues around eating or asthma or premature birth. And just the way that we should never look at parents who have children with those issues with any extra suspicion, we should not be looking at parents of trans children with any extra suspicion. It's just

that any medical professionals who are working with children should be aware that this abuse happens and looking for the signs of it. So we are right now in the middle of production and releasing episodes on the fly. Do you want to talk a little bit about what's coming up towards the end of season, what has now become season three? Yes. So normally we would do one of these Q&A episodes in the longer hiatus between seasons,

but we really got going on season three. And so, yeah, we're covering a trial that's happening in real time. So we don't know all what we're going to be updating you on. But we are going to be talking about this sort of expanded idea about false accusations and a situation in Lehigh, Pennsylvania that actually a few of you have messaged me about. And even some of the coverage of this topic is continuing to get here in my own backyard in Seattle, Washington. So, yeah, as always, send us your thoughts. Send us your questions.

We have a new voicemail box that you can leave us voice messages and that we'll put that in the show notes. And thank you all for listening.