Noob School - Battle-Tested Leadership with Kevin Farrell

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

In Episode 148 of Noob School, I talk with Kevin Farrell — a retired U.S. Army Colonel and now the President and CEO of Battlefield Leadership. Kevin’s career has spanned the military, academia, consulting, and even Hollywood, where he served as the senior military advisor on the Brad Pitt film Fury. But through all of it, one theme has stayed constant: leadership matters, especially under pressure. We talk about how his experience leading troops in combat shaped his understanding of leadership — and why those lessons still apply to business leaders today. Kevin shares stories from his work helping companies grow stronger through historical case studies and dives into some of the most common leadership mistakes he sees in the corporate world. We also touch on the difference between managing and truly leading, and how teams can make that shift. Kevin brings a unique mix of hard-earned experience and academic depth, with advanced degrees from Columbia University and a long list of published work. Whether you're building a team, growing a business, or just trying to become a better leader — this conversation has something for you.

All right, welcome back, everybody, to Noob School. Episode 148, believe it or not, we're closing in on 150. I've got a new friend, Kevin Farrell, with me today. Kevin is an accomplished veteran from the Army, U.S. Army. He graduated from West Point, right around the time that I graduated from school, So we're about the same age and had a remarkable career in the military, retired as a full colonel, and has joined and now runs a group called Battlefield Leadership. And today we're going to talk about kind of his path to get to this point.

And then we're going to talk about what battlefield leadership is and how it might help you or your company in some way. So, Kevin, welcome aboard. Thank you very much, John. It's a privilege and a pleasure to be here. Great, great. So where do you live now? Are you in Greenville? I live in Greenville.

Okay. Not far from the airport off of Route 14 there. Good job. And how did you end up here? So my wife is originally born and raised, South Carolina, the center of the state, a Lugof, Camden area. And so throughout our marriage, home base was always South Carolina. So I was gone a lot, deployment, that stuff.

But for the family, I always spent time with her family. And it's, well, I'd never live anywhere else, to be frank. But then the company that I lead now, Battlefield Leadership, is headquartered here. And what brought me to Greenville in the first place was a local attraction, Cow Pins, a neat Revolutionary War Battlefield. Many people aren't that familiar with it. And some of the great companies that are here, namely Michelin and Milliken. Yeah.

Okay, great. We're glad to have you. We're glad to have you. I'm always amazed at how many great people are moving here from one reason or another. So, hats off to the city leaders for doing what they're doing. Gosh, Michelin's been here for so long. Yeah. It's just we kind of overlooked the fact that Michelin's North American headquarters is in Greenville.

Right. Yeah, and that BMW makes more cars in Greenville than anywhere else in the world. Correct. It's crazy. Yes. So let's go back to where you grew up. Sure. Where was it?

So I grew up not far from New York City, believe it or not, although it was Rear View Mirror, and Westchester County about 12 miles north of Manhattan. And from an early age, I knew I wanted to serve my country. Okay. And so it was an unusual path for people of my generation where I was, but I went to the military academy at West Point and knew really since an early age I wanted to be a career soldier. That's what I wanted to do. I went to West Point and thoroughly embraced and loved my Army career. I bet you did. And so how did you know that as a young man?

I think part of it I was inspired by my father's service in the Second World War. I was a patriot. I loved my country. I felt very privileged to have the benefits that I do as an American. And I very much wanted to serve. It's an overused phrase and sometimes a cliche, but I wanted to give back. So I was really attracted to serving something larger than myself. Nice. Very nice. And then was it tough to get into West Point? I mean, it's hard to be objective.

I think statistically they say it is. So I was fortunate to be accepted. That's great. And did you enjoy your time there? I did. I mean, it was a challenging experience. People often have different reactions to it. In many ways, it was some of the best years of my.

life. Surrounded by great people, always being challenged on a daily basis, and very much idealistic, which appealed to me. Yeah. Yeah, I told you earlier, my son-in-law graduated from West Point 10 or 11 years ago, and I've met a lot of his friends, and they're all very similar in that same vein. They love their country. They're kind of servant leaders. He's very helpful around the house. He's like, Mr. Sterling, I moved the wood over here for you. He's sitting there for a year and a half, you know. So, yeah, he's a great, a great young man.

But I think West Point attracts that kind of person and then develops him. I'd like to think so. Yes, it provided the foundation for everything else that I did in my life. Yeah, it's great. That's great. I was thinking about it the other day, you know, if you want to be an Army officer, I mean, that is the place to go, right? I mean, you can do it through an RTC or something like that, but your primary way is through there.

And I suppose if you want to be, you know, a computer science expert, you might say that's MIT, right? Or a business person in Harvard Business School. I suppose there's different spots. But West Point. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting way of putting it. I'd phrase it this way. I think there are many ways to prepare yourself for a successful career in the military. What distinguishes West Point is from start to finish its whole raison to answer,

its whole purpose in being, is to create army officers. So there's no ancillary purpose. We're not going to produce athletes. We're not going to produce, you know, nuclear physicists. Those things might come. But the core mission of the institution is to develop future army officers. Right, right. And gosh, it shouldn't make things easier.

having one thing that you're trying to do. It helps focus. Yeah. Yeah. They say we're a leadership school, but leadership for different things. You might become an officer in the service or you might become a business person in the south or you might become a doctor. You know, people take that base of leadership and they take it in different directions.

But, yeah, anyway, I'm a big fan of that for anybody, any young person who wants to go into the Army. Yeah. And it's great. And I have many friends, comrades that are Citadel graduates and great Army officers as well that I've served with and actually lived with earlier in life as housemates. Just a great institution and a pinnacle in the state, actually. Yeah. Really, in a lot of ways, the core of what I think of South Carolina and the United, role that that institution has played in the development of this great state, it can't be overstated.

Yeah. Well, it's a good, a good option also. So when you're coming through West Point, what area did they slot you into when you graduated? Well, my branch, my profession in terms of what I would do as an officer in the Army was armor branch, tanks. Okay. You know, and that was, for me, the big challenge was, did I want to be an infantry officer, which is the rifleman in the ground, or did I want to be combat arm of decision, that mobile firepower on the armored platform, the M1 tank? And I went back and forth,

and I remember seeing a commercial back in the day in the 80s, and the member of the tank crew said, when we win, the whole team wins. And that encapsulated right there. The focus on teamwork and everybody pulling together toward it, and just the excitement, the dynamic, the, the, The ability to be able to respond to changing circumstances, that was something about the branch that really appealed to me.

Right. And it stayed with me my whole life. Right. Did you work with the Bradley's? I did. I was fortunate throughout my career, almost every field problem. And my major combat deployments always involved armor tanks, M1 tanks, working with the Bradley. Okay.

And how are the, how's it working now with tanks versus drones? It's a great question. I mean, it really, their warfare, nature of man, even, you know, of combat, that type of thing is always evolving. But drones represent a new frontier. And we see what's going on in Ukraine and Russia. The drone warfare has seen to have a significant impact, especially on offensive operations, ground, offensive operations, just the ability to mass and concentrate. If it can be seen while it moves, it can be hit. And that's a big change. God. Wow. Hmm. Okay. And so when you started,

where did they, where is your first station or first duty? First duty station is Fort Hood, Texas. Fort Hood, okay. First cavalry division. Was it hot out there? It was very hot. lots of open terrain to train, and it's really where I cut my teeth as a junior armor officer and learned how to maneuver tanks and Bradley's, and I loved it. It was a great place to be a 20-something and just able to focus completely on trying to master my profession, learn how to lead at the junior level, where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, and getting to work with soldiers, great soldiers, and sometimes not so great, but helping people become the best that they could be.

Right, right. I also thought that was interesting. It's interesting, just through my son-in-law, I learned a little bit about this, but you don't necessarily get to pick your soldiers. Right. Right? And so you're the new, you know, platoon leader or captain or whatever it is you are, and they're like, here's your people.

That's right. You've got to make them work as best as possible. That's exactly right. I mean, you are assigned to whatever role you have, and if you're going to lead that team or join that team, you're always doing both, essentially. You get what you get. Right, yeah.

Unlike business, where you can pick your people. You can, and you can bring them along. You don't have that capacity to say, I'm going to take so-and-so with me. Maybe in senior roles later on, that opportunity will come along, but certainly early on in the career, you're handed what you're handed.

Right, right. Who's your favorite military leader? Oh, of all time, I would say it would be George Catlett Marshall, George C. Marshall, U.S. Army Chief of Staff during the Second World War. Okay. Just truly inspirational, the embodiment of character, courage, and competence. I think Chester Nimitz, a naval officer as well, ranks very high. He'd probably be my close number two. How about Patton? I think very highly of Patton.

He was great for the role that he had. I mean, he's obviously an element of him, of his personality, some controversy attached to him, none. But in terms of being the battlefield commander and leader, one who inspired, he was there when we needed him. Most in particular, you think of the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, December 44. Wow. Those are good ones. And so after Fort Hood, where did they send you? So then I went to the infantry officer's advance course.

course it was known back in the day and then I was at Fort Carson, Colorado. Mm-hmm. Fort Carson, okay, my son-in-law's been out there. And how was that duty? That was great and I was also newly wet at the time, still married, 35 years later. And so it was a new phase in life and that's where I had my company command. So this is the first not independent command, but I had an organization about 165 soldiers. So a much greater degree of responsibility and some autonomy.

And so the new chapter of my life, being married and a new place. I'd never lived in Colorado. So it was, again, very engaging, very, very rewarding period of my life. Great, great. And I think it's also interesting about the Army, unlike a straight up business career, is they just take their time to get you training. Like training's not over after West Point. They'll just take, they'll give you a year's worth of training,

somewhere. That's right. The majors course or something like that's right. The command of general staff college for example. I went later, you know, that's a year. It's a great point, John, that the amount of leadership development that the military and general and the army in particular puts into soldiers at all levels of all ranks. I mean, it starts from the day you sign up and it essentially never ends. And it's a very high ratio of training time versus serving in various roles, but obviously the Army believes it's worth it, and I certainly do as well. Right. Huh. Is there anything, I mean, it sounds like they're doing a really good job, but is there anything that you think, now that you're out, that they could do better,

particularly at the higher levels? You know, that's a great question. I mean, we all have opinions, and like if I were king for a day type of thing. I would love to see, continued emphasis on the fundamentals, on the basics. You always say that if you can't do the routine things routinely, the more complex ones are harder. So basic levels of discipline, standards, just knowing your job at whatever level it is before you get to the next, don't rush through it. Really, you know, focus on building the teamwork, the cohesion, being really good at what you do right now. Yeah. That's good. The Citadel did something. long after I left, but when I was there, you know, you'd get in the Citadel.

That first year, they would, you know, make you work a lot, work out a lot to the point where kind of everyone got in the best shape of their life. After that, they didn't care at all. You could be 500 pounds. I mean, and that's not exactly the Citadel man, you know, they were looking for. And so now it's part of the curriculum or part of the, it's part of the, what they have to do to graduate every semester is pass a certain PT tests. And people don't graduate sometimes if they can't do it.

And I'm like, that makes sense to me. I think it makes sense, absolutely. Yeah. What do you do now to work out? So I try, I mean, now that I'm not 30 anymore, I try to dedicate about one hour a day, typically low impact, walking, weightlifting that lifetime sports. I like to play tennis with my wife, that stuff, I think.

but I try to shoot for about 45 minutes to an hour a day. That sounds very, very responsible of you. It doesn't surprise me. But, you know, I think the hour a day is like the vitamin for exercise, just without hurting yourself. Yeah. You don't want to overdo it. You don't want to cause injury.

But in the other hand, I try to treat it as a meeting or an appointment that I have to do every day. Right. Not something, oh, when we can, but making an essential part of the routine. Right. Yeah. When I try to help sales teams, they'll ask me anything that's important, prospecting, exercise, you know, anything that's really important to them. Like, you just got to do it first.

That's right. You got to do it first. They're like, oh, really? I'm like, yeah, do that first and then do all the others, whatever the other stuff is, do that later. I have never, well, not to say never, almost never in my whole life followed through with, I'm going to skip the exercise. this morning and do it later on this afternoon. You know, it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.

Oh, that's great. Okay, so you're in Colorado, you got, you're a captain, right? Right. You got your own group. What happens next? Well, as you mentioned, you identified the Army invests a lot in training. I was very fortunate. I was selected, the Army selected me to attend graduate school fully funded.

Nice. And then with a follow on utilization tour to be an instructor at West Point. history instructor. So at two years to Columbia University in New York City, earned my master's degree in modern European history, so Britain, France, and Germany. While there, since I had no other responsibilities, I figured why not max this out? So I earned a second master, a master of philosophy, and the university was kind enough to award me a full scholarship for that. And then, even though they said it wouldn't be possible. On my own time, I continued and ultimately earned my doctorate, my Ph.D. Wow. And that required extensive travel over to the United Kingdom. In fact, the

approval of Queen Elizabeth, her handlers really, to get access to some of the key archives at Windsor Castle. And that was a multi-year process. So after my two years being a full-time student were up, then I had a utilization tour I taught on the faculty at West Point for three years. Then I spent a year at the Staff College, the Commandant General Staff College in Fort Levorth, Kansas, all the while, all those things, all my duties working on the dissertation, which ultimately I defended successfully in May of 1997. In, I'm sorry, May, let's see, that was, yes, May of 1998. excuse me in New York City and then no May of 99 I'm sorry sorry do that so yep and then I

finished my teaching tour and I graduated from the staff college and then picked up my family after leaving New York and we we then flew to Germany dropped the family off and then I was now the operations officer of a tank battalion the S3 operations officer and I went straight into Kosovo. So we were the first U.S. unit. So I kind of resumed my operational field career. That's got to be weird, though. I mean, you're at Columbia University, you're talking with the Queen,

working on your dissertation, and then back in the tank. Yes. Yeah, I am fortunate, and then I had a, I'd say, a rather unusual career, and I was able to experience a number of things. So if you look at it, I had my operational. operational school of hard knocks, my, you know, successful army career, field career, combat, deployments, that stuff, had my academic phase where, and ultimately I'd end up being a tenured professor at the military academy. You know, and now what I'm doing, I consider the business phase where I get to combine the first two chapters of my life and help pay it forward and work with great organizations. That's great. That's great. Do you know the folks at the Rupert Hughes Veterans Center?

By name only. I don't know. I mean, I'm familiar with it. I need to check it. We need to get you over there. Both my sons work there. One was in the service and one wasn't. And then Charlie Hall is the West Point graduate who runs it. Yes. We've been in touch. I mean, via email, we've deconflicting schedules. So we have a lunch coming up. He's well worth it. He runs a great organization and the place does wonderful things for veterans. They have pulled in all the different kind of veteran nonprofits from the area, and they all coalesce at this one spot. So if you're a veteran, you can go there and work on getting the mortgage or getting counseling or getting in shape or starting to business.

I mean, all those things are... I understand it's an outstanding organization. It is. They'd love to have you there. I mean, probably a feed-in for your company, too. Yeah. Okay, so you're in Kosovo. you're leading a tank brigade.

Well, I was the chief planner. I was basically number three at the time, and later I would move up become number two. So I was one-seven armor, a tank battalion, about 600 soldiers. Wow. And so planner, like, we're going to bring this unit over here. Yeah, so when you think of, you know, how are we going to subdue the bad guys or how are we going to,

that's the key role of the operations officer. And that was my job in the operations. operational combat deployment. And then we redeployed back to Germany, but I stayed in the unit. And so then the second year in that organization, I became the second in command, the executive officer, number two. And then I was from there slated to go to higher level headquarters, but I was picked by the commanding general, basically that it oversees all of our ground forces in Germany, great, great individual, Jim Riley, Lieutenant General Jim Riley, to be his aide to camp. basically as executive assistant.

And even though it wasn't what I wanted to do, it's like you don't really get a choice. And that was, you know, I joke, the next 22 months were not my own. Spent far more time with the general than I did with my wife. But it was another broadening, life-changing experience because I got to see highest levels of org, I mean, truly the highest levels of organization in our government

and how leadership is conducted at that level, extensive global travel. Every day was a new adventure. It really, again, it added to and set up all the things that would come later in my life. So another key developmental moment. So when you travel globally with the general, how are y'all moving around the world? Yeah, it would vary. I mean, especially in Europe and even in the United States, oftentimes in one of the smaller jets, almost always military aircraft, overseas always military aircraft. Domestically, sometimes just ordinary commercial aircraft and sometimes military aircraft. Because they have so many.

Yeah. And I, you know, my daughter and son-in-law are stationed up in D.C. now, and I see helicopters going all over the place. Are those like military people? Yeah, and I'm sure the acronyms have changed, Jason. They're different terms. but there's actually a pecking order, so depending what the rank is and the priority of the mission. And so we started, you know, when I started in that role, it was in Germany and he was very, very senior.

And so basically had picked the litter any time we wanted and had the whole team. Once we changed duty stations, moved to Kansas, then it was a little more competition. So I could not always get the suitable, the aircraft that we would have liked. Yeah. It's kind of funny. I was a senior private at the Citadel, so I'd probably get an Uber. Probably the best I could do. Oh, my gosh.

Well, that's cool. What an experience. Okay, so you had that in Germany, and then you went back to the States. Yeah. Where did you go in the States? Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. So I continued, his role changed, and I moved with him. Again, the offer you can't refuse, which was great.

And that was the Combined Armed Center at Fort Leavenworth. And when I finished with that role, of course, I went to Afghanistan. I was an advisor to the Afghan National Army. So it served as really kind of building the embryo of what would become the A&A, the Afghan National Army. And that was an interesting deployment for me. Many challenges. You could see even then, this is a couple decades ago,

just the magnitude of the challenge that we faced in Afghanistan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, true. And then what about after Afghanistan? So then I had kind of a placeholder role. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it very much, but because of my academic credentials, they thought I would be a good fit. I was selected at that time for command, for battalion command. So typically that's the top, a tactical field command would have been the top four or five percent of your group type of thing. and I was the chief of research and publications at the Combined Services Institute,

and it was basically one of the historical arms of the Army, so I enjoyed that very much. Just professional military publications, historical things. And then I went to a preparatory course to take command of an organization that I was proud to be a part of, 164 armor, which is a combined arms battalion, about 1,000. soldiers, many hundreds of vehicles of different types. And so mostly tanks and the Bradley's you're referring to earlier, but also engineer vehicles, scout snipers. And that was based in Fort Stewart, Georgia. And that was with the third infantry division. But much of my time leading that organization was spent actually in Iraq. So we had 13 months in East Baghdad, Tisa Nissan District.

I'd often jokingly referred to it as the South Bronx of Iraq. But we had, it was an area about the size of Manhattan Island. Okay. About 1.2, 1.2, 3 million people lived in our era of responsibilities. It was very rewarding, very challenging many combat actions, many fine men that unfortunately didn't, I wasn't able to bring home. And then others also quite a few that were wounded in some cases very severely. So it was a very tough.

Were they normally attacking where we were or are we going out? Combination of things. So our main purpose really was to bring about stability and order to the region economic development. We did actively pursue insurgents, terrorists, enemy operatives. So we'd go after them and then we also were subject to ambushes and things similar to that. All right, well, tough duty. So 11 months? 13 months?

13. And then where do we go? So then we came back and this is where I had the proverbial fork in the road. So I had that opportunity. I was offered a position chance to become the operations officer of the division, the G3, that would have been a key stepping stone to become a flag officer to star. So it was an opportunity to go and, you know, see how far in the, rank progression I could go. But because I'd already earned my doctorate, my PhD, and I'd been

an instructor before, I was given the opportunity to be a tenured professor, basically, at the military academy. And it was a tough call, and I thought, really, what made it an easy decision, how best could I serve the Army, what would be the best use of my skills, how could I serve the nation the best? And I thought, in fact, going back to the Military Academy, helping to develop, and influence future leaders in the Army would really be the best use of my time and energy. Excellent. And ultimately, that was the remainder of my active duty career. I did have a year where instead of going to the War College domestically, I was a visiting

professor in Germany for a year in Garmish Parton, which was lovely. Really enjoyed that experience. And, of course, even though I was there as a visiting professor, I did get to visit some of our hotspots as well and some more limited engagements. So military tourism, no, but got to go to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and the Middle East and various things. And then I finished as my career at the Department of History at West Point as the chief of military history. So I had oversight of the military history curriculum for the U.S. military. That's awesome. So it was awesome.

That's quite a career. I consider myself very, very fortunate. How long was it? So 27 years commissioned and four as a cadet at Westport. Okay, okay. Just under 31. Don't those count towards your years? You know, it's a good question.

Yes and no. Okay. So that's why you're one of the few people that's ever actually asked that question. It's a weird wrinkle. So the four years you're a cadet. at the Military Academy, your active duty, you're subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, all those things. But for whatever reason, those four years do not count toward military retirement, payer benefits. Unless, this is all these good government and idiosyncrasies. If you leave the service,

but you go into government service in another capacity, those four years, in fact, will count toward overall government service. That's so weird. Isn't it, you can buy, yeah, so it's a strange thing. So, you know, officially I have 27 years and change as, as an army officer. Yeah. And I've got these four years that count, but they don't count. You know, I was subject to all the things. You had the uniform, but they didn't add on the clock.

Well, let's just call it 30. 30 years. That's a lot that you, that inkling you had as a teenager, you know, that you absolutely carried, carried through one. You got to feel good about that. I was fortunate in that I had a life's goal, and I believe I was able to meet it. Yeah, it's wonderful. Now, all this is bonus time. Yes.

You know? Well, and this is the third professional chapter of my life. I look at it. I'm very fortunate, and that I can profit from, you know, you benefit from the first two phases and use it really for the third. A combination of the hands-on practical leadership and the academic. academic intellectual study, combining them together to help organizations and individuals get better what they do now. I'm going to ask a few more questions, then we're going to switch over to battlefield leadership, because I always have to ask these questions. Can you give me an example of when you had to be a salesperson in your career, how you sold somebody on something?

Sales in the military context? Yeah, like persuading someone to bring you along or to, give you this job versus whatever you had to persuade. Yeah, certainly. I mean, I can think of one time. I was relatively early in my career as a lieutenant, had a meeting with my boss two levels up, the battalion commander.

There's an opportunity for a position to be filled and don't think he really wanted it. He didn't know me that well, but I knew I would be just right for it. And so I basically said, I won't let you down. I'm going to work harder than you can imagine that I will work harder. But if you'll give me this opportunity, I promise you won't regret it. And I ended up being as HHC.

Headquarters, headquarters company, XO is a long story, but it worked out for a little. I like that. I like that. I've had people tell me before, like, I'm like, how is this going to work to a salesperson? And the salesperson going, I got you, John. I got you. I'm like, all right? Fair enough.

You know, if I hear that from somebody, what you just said, I'm like, all right, that's the right answer. But if someone says, well, you know, I've done 24 exercises, going to all this detail. That's not the point. I like that you just put it right there. I'm not going to let you down and outwork everybody. Give me a chance. Okay. That's good.

All right. How is AI or chat GPT, any of those, how is that affecting your business today? I think it's a great question, and it comes up with our clients all the time. It's certainly buzzworthy, if that's a phrase. People, there's consternation about it, there's excitement about it. What I find is I think it's an opportunity. I think that the fear out there is that people are going to lose their jobs or somehow going to make us irrelevant.

And what I see with my clients and with our organization is, if we know what our core strengths are, we know what our purpose, what our mission is, it's an asset that can help us. It's never going to replace us. And what I find with AI is it can save a lot of time, it can build you something, but it's never going to replace the authentic, whatever it is that you do. So I try to see the benefit. in it when it comes to, say, creating an itinerary or looking for a narrative to use, but I would never touch an AI product without personalizing it, without customizing it.

So it's mainly the time saver that I use. I think as long as human beings are involved, and the essence of what we do is that personal connection, building relationships, AI is not going to displace that. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it's, you know, I tell people kind of the same thing that, you know, by the way, it's here, so we have to deal with it. You know, we can't just say, well, I don't like it. I mean, you better deal with it.

And I use it all the time as a tool. Quick research, a draft of a paper, you know, a business plan. Yeah. You're started. And, you know, there's no more writers block. Right. You can have it in five seconds. So, yeah, I think we agree on that.

What is, what is, what are you using social media for in your business, if anything? The main thing for social media for us is, is to let people know about us, at least to peak some, some interest. One of the challenges of what we do is that it's hard to fully, to understand fully what we do until you experience it. Yeah. But just to peak that interest. Okay. Okay, that sounds a little bit different. That sounds like something that's interesting.

And what's your, what's your main? social media platform. So right now, LinkedIn would be what we use the most and trying to maximize that, but I think we want to expand beyond it too. Yeah, that's mine too. Yeah. Right too. Okay.

A couple of just quick hitters here. This one's going to be really good because, you know, you're the head of history department at West Point, so you probably read a few books. What's your favorite all-time book? Well, it's a relatively obscure work. It would be the forgotten soldier by Guy Sajet. It's S-A-G-J-E-R. It's just a first-person narrative on a soldier in the Second World War.

Close second would be with the old breed by E.B. Sledge, a Marine in the Pacific in the the Second World War. Those would probably be my top two. But generally, I don't share them with clients because they're more my old life, but it's a good question. Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm going to give those to my son-in-law. He, I guarantee you he would, he's probably familiar with both of them, but I know he'll enjoy them. What's your, what's your favorite band? This is the West Point man? I would say it's Elvis Costello and the attractions. Okay. I know that's not a household group, but that would be. my number one.

Now, see, with the attractions, is that before he was just Elis Casano? Right. Okay. That's beginning in 78. Okay. And what's your favorite word? Favorite word?

Perhaps Chadenfreude? I heard the word. I don't think I know what it is. Well, it's beautiful because it's a word that doesn't exist in English. It's a German phrase, and it's a very negative concept. it's taking joy in the misery of others. And that's why I think it's unique. When you say favorite, it's not something that I embrace.

You don't like it. But I find that it's a unique word because it captures a sentiment, not a good sentiment, but because I find that the English language is the most expressive language in the world. And it can say just about anything. But here's the one exception. That's an interesting word. Yeah, that's right. And sorry, you have to pause.

there, but I think it's okay. That's okay. That's all right. So let's talk about the business, battlefield leadership. Tell us about how long it's been around and what it does for folks. Yeah, well, thank you for asking. I'm always happy to talk about battlefield leadership. So the company itself is incorporated in 2008, although the concept goes back quite a bit further. If you look at much of what we do is pioneered a partnership between General Electric and the U.S. Army War College going back really late 70s and the 80s. And what they did is working with staff from the War College. The idea is let's go to these battlefields the way the military did.

The military has this thing called the staff ride, a very unusual sounding phrase because it's counterintuitive, but it comes from taking the staff, the leadership staff, on a ride, on a horseback ride, going to a historic battlefield, analyzing. it, not for what happened, but what would we do now as a leadership team? Wow. So it's a tried and true. The Prussians invented it in the early, early 19th century, and the U.S. Army adopted it well into the 19th century.

Would it be based with the same weapons they had then? No, the idea really just looking at maps and how would we fight this now, how would we maneuver. And so the great breakthrough happened with, what if we applied this to business? What if we go to these locations, not for anything about fighting a battle or who would have done what, but the challenges we face in terms of communication, team building, how do we cascade intent throughout the organization, and going to someplace that would really be compelling in terms of what they did and when? And so battlefield leadership created in 2008, and I was not part of the organization at the time, use that. And they applied to principal with a historian and a business leader.

And they would work with a team of business executives and say, okay, let's talk about this and that. And so when I was asked to join the organization as I was transitioning from the Army, very, very small, just basically two individuals. I grew to about five. And then it changed my life. And I was very fortunate and saw the power in it. and meeting incredible business leaders and seeing the potential.

And initially, at the time, there were just two programs. It was Gettysburg and Normandy. And now we have well over 30. Wow. And the idea was that you can go all over the world and not just battle. You know, we do innovation events, Henry Ford, space race, you name it, all different types of things that the Wright brothers, all different ways. ways, how do you align your team to accomplish certain objectives? So if you were the right brothers,

how would you invent flying? Well, yeah, I mean, or just going back and seeing, why were they able to solve a problem that the best resourced institutions on the planet couldn't do? Here are two individuals, neither of whom graduated high school, had no formal training in anything, but they'd run a printing shop, ran a bicycle shop and gosh, they figured it was essentially no budget. And so it's like because oftentimes we find with business, you know, everybody wants more. We need more money. We need more of everything, more people, more resources. And here are two individuals, the government of France couldn't do it.

The U.S. Army couldn't. The biggest U.S. Army contract in history up to that point had been trying to master this problem, to solve this problem, and they did it. And so it's okay, what are their principles? What did they do? And so we'll go there, we'll examine this, and then boom, we take that back home to our parent organization. So you would bring a team, would you actually take them to, where was it, Kitty Hawk? Did you take them up there?

Yeah. Okay. And they do, they study it and they look at it and then they try to understand. See the exhibits go in the sand dunes. And Normandy, the same thing? Same thing. So when we go to the beaches of Normandy and as you've been there, you know it's a life-changing. experiencing experience, right? And so, you know, this is, let's say you have a large organization, a

global corporation. It's going to be composed of all different subordinate companies, each of which has its own proud heritage and history and culture. You think of that like the allies. Great Britain, a tradition that far exceeded ours. In fact, they're the greater contributors at Normandy. Most Americans don't realize that. And what did Eisenhower have to do? He had to meld to get the free French, all of these different organizations, toward a common goal. Break down the barriers between organizations. And you can say these things, and of course, businesses want to do this. But when you're standing on the beach or you're going to the headquarters where they did this,

it has a resonance. And then the key is when the participants, when these executives, when they go back home, they remember the site, they remember the power of place, the language, the tools, the concepts that we give them, and wow, productivity goes through the roof. That's so cool. So you take a leadership team to somewhere a battlefield or where somebody invented something or something really cool, the car or whatever, and they study it and then try to take what they learn back to the company.

Yeah, and to be clear, it's never a history lesson. It's never a study in military tactics. It's always about our clients. It's always about our clients. What is their culture? Where are they trying to go? What can we build upon? And so there's always pre-work for us, that is, for the facilitators that will be working with them to understand as much as we can about them.

We never try to pretend to be them. We certainly don't want them to be the historical individuals that we're talking about. But we'll give them tools and techniques and specific examples where they overcame things. I mean, there's this one, again, it's one of these transformative moments. If you've been, you might remember from Normandy, these artificial harbors that were created off of Aramash. And Churchill had given the guidance, you know, don't worry about the problems, they'll solve themselves. I need solutions. How are we going to create an artificial harbor off the landing sites to sustain the landings?

And it's like, wow, this is exactly what we're trying to do. How do we get our different organizations to cooperate together toward a country? common end state rather than worrying about, well, so-and-so isn't doing what I need them to. Right. And is there any particular size company you're looking for or type of industry? Yeah, I would say the majority of our clients fall in the Fortune 500 realm. And it always comes down to resources, personnel, you know, budget. It doesn't mean that smaller ones don't work with us on a regular basis, but they don't have the opportunity to partner with us as frequently, perhaps, as, say, an organization with tens of thousands of employees, there are a lot more to go through.

Well, yeah, anyone that hadn't been to Normandy, I highly recommend it. You have to see it for yourself. And only seeing that, would corporate executives be able to say, we can't be fighting with each other, department to department? We've got to take that, you know. We have a number. of great clients, and I could rattle off five very senior executives that said to me, for them, that was a pivotal moment in their career and really change the way they see

themselves as leaders and the way they've led their teams and they've gone onto great success. So it reminds me, you know, normally when we're negotiating with another company, it's like all of us against all of you. And we were negotiating with American Airlines. lines one time. It was a big deal for our software company. And we were all geared up, you know. We were geared up. And, uh, and their executive VP emailed me. He said, hey, John, I'm Tom, whatever EVP in American is, can you talk for a few minutes? I'm like, all right, you know? Yeah, yeah. So he's like, hey, this thing's important to us that we get this done. We need your software. And I bet you guys want to do it.

Why don't you and I just start a back channel? And if anything goes wrong with these guys? Yeah. And I was like, wow. Yeah. And it probably changed everything. It changed everything. And plus once I told my guys that, they were like, okay, it's going to be cool.

It's cool. Right. Yeah. But all it took was him reaching out with the, with the, you know, the rose or whatever. And just saying, let's try to make this work nicely. And I've been ever since, I do it on every large opportunity. I reach out to the owner and just say, why don't we just start talking? It's such a great point, John, because we see this again and again, the power of relationship.

If you can build that personal connection, it makes everything else easier. And it's a lot harder than to have the barriers. Because if I can reach out to this person, and there's a point at which on one of our programs, we go to Gettysburg, and there's a key union leader, John Reynolds, goes to these extraordinary measures, gets his troops, you know, many hours of hard marching in the dark. Why does he do it? Because he's got the personal connection with the individual that's asked to be helped. And when you have that personal connection,

you're far more willing to do all you can to help. And you realize another part of it, if you understand their objective and they understand yours, you know, what is your intent, what is theirs? We're not enemies. No. We might have different, different, different, reasons for going the direction that we are. But if we can understand what they want,

they can understand what we want, the likelihood of coming to a mutual, mutually satisfying agreement is far greater. I agree. Well, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. Do you personally take people on these adventures? Yes. I mean, I do not conduct all of them. We have a great team, several individuals associated with battlefield leadership. But I enjoy doing those that I'm able to do. And I often learn more from the people that I'm working with that perhaps they do for me. I mean, I've been so privileged to meet incredible leaders. And, you know, the old adult learning model in these various things, we tend to listen a lot more from peers and other people that work in the field and pay attention rather than the lecture format. Right. You know, just like even today,

the discussion, just getting to know, taking time, what do you think about this? It's really, it's really affirming. Yeah. So, Kevin, tell me, tell me about this thing you did with Brad Pitt a couple years ago. Yeah, I was fortunate. I was a senior military advisor, senior technical consultant to a film that starred Brad Pitt that came out in 2014. It was World War II drama. It was called Fury. Fury. And my role, I was very privileged. David Eyre was the director, a big A-list, great guy, Hollywood A-List director. But my role was to help the actors understand how the tank crews would have operated to look at the historical accuracy of uniforms and equipment.

It was really a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And I can't say enough great things about Brad Pitt, is a human being, really intelligent. great, obviously a great actor, but just a great person. It was very special for my wife to meet him and be with him at the World Premier. That was a life-changing experience as well. Cool. And so, so he was a cool guy. He was just normal once you got behind the rope. Absolutely. Very humble, very intelligent and listened. Yeah, I couldn't say enough good things about him. That's great. What a, what, are you going to do any more of that kind of stuff? You know, I've been involved, I've been on a number of documentaries on the History Channel and, you know, on this side of the camera.

I did consult on a Russian film of all things. There's a top grossing Russian movie in Russian history. It came out in 2019. It was called T-34. Historical accuracy on it, a little questionable, but it was interesting just to, and again, work anything World War II. But generally, probably I don't see much. I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I really enjoy working with corporate and municipal and government groups. Yeah, yeah, cool.

I'm delighted you're in Greenville, and thank you, truly thank you for your service. And battlefield leadership, I think, would be great for any company that wants to do a unique leadership model. And so to reach you, would they just Google Battlefield leadership? Yep, we have a, I'd like to thank a very nice. website, either the battlefieldleadership.com, to one word, battlefieldleadership.com, easily found on the web. You could do a search for me, Kevin Farrell. It's on there. Our C.O. Adrian Harrison, she's fantastic. Steve Barry, recently retired U.S. Army Colonel, also. Any of them, if you do Google search, you'll find them, but Battlefield Leadership, we're on the web. Thank you.

Well, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. If you need an aide to camp, next time you get on normal to do, let me know. If nothing else, maybe you could do cow pens. That'd be fine. Thank you, man. Thank you, Tom. Appreciate it.