Noob School - Episode 47: Can’t Just Be Lucky, You Also Need To Be Ready with Jim Sobeck

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

Some people are just lucky and privileged enough to receive the opportunities that they are able to take advantage of, whether it be through education, social status, or just knowing the right people. But the truth is, you still have to work for it, or else that luck and privilege means nothing. In this episode of the Noob School podcast, our host John Sterling talks to New South Construction Supply’s CEO, Jim Sobeck. Jim shares how he got his start with his father’s roofing company at 12, and how all that hard work paid off not just in financial terms, but also in knowledge and experience gained.  HIGHLIGHTSSurviving two recessions and thriving during the pandemic Luck plays a role, but you need to be readyWorking at 12 and learning the value of hard work Regional manager for Owens Corning's six branches at 23Partner at Building Marts of America at 25 Hire slowly, but fire quickly Have a checklist for everything Run a company like you're selling it tomorrow Dealing with imposter syndrome and Jim's favorite podcasts Be relentless QUOTESJim on preparing for once-in-a-lifetime opportunities through hard work: "When opportunity knocks, you got to be there, and you got to answer the door."Jim on money and why you need to use it wisely: "Money doesn't solve all problems. But money gives you options which [if] properly exercised, could lead to happiness."Jim on running a company: "Run the company like you're going to sell it tomorrow. That way, if you do get to sell it, you can do it quickly because you have audited statements. We have all the board minutes, we have a real board of directors..."  Connect with Jim on the link below: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-sobeck-a9245/  Connect with Noob School and John by visiting the following links:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsterling1/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnsterlingsalesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnsterling_/Twitter: https://twitter.com/johnsterling_TikTok: https://twitter.com/johnsterling_Website: http://salestrainingfornoobs.com/

Once we established the profile for success, then when you do run people through the assessments, the ones that you want to hire jump off the page out of you. And then one of the things I always tell people about growth is you have to systematize things. You can't do a series of one-offs. We have a policy and procedures manual that when we open a new branch, here, here's the rulebook. Here's how you run this branch. And you don't have to wing it and. see if this works or doesn't work.

And then I'm a big believer in checklists. One thing I learned from Clarence Boknight, Clarence had a checklist for various types of vacations. He had a scuba diving checklist, a skiing checklist, a hunting checklist. And so I've got checklists. And then all you've got to do is go down the checklist and put a quantity next to boxer shorts, t-shirts, you know, whatever you need for the trip.

And when you have checklists, list for things you don't forget anything. Welcome back to Noob School. This is where we interview successful business owners, and we dial it back to the beginning and figure out what they did to make their revenue grow. Welcome back to Noob School. Today, a special friend, Jim Sobeck. Jim is the CEO and owner of New South Construction Supply based right here in Greenville,

and I have seen Jim and New South grow. tremendously all throughout the Southeast since he acquired it back in 2001. Right after 9-11. Okay. It was probably got a good price. Got a discount because of 9-11. That's good. Well, again, thanks for being here.

We appreciate it. My pleasure. Jim and I have been friends. It's been a long time. I can't remember when it started, but I think I met you at, we had a breakfast club we used to go to. The first time I met you, I interviewed you for a job at BMA. You did?

And you turned it down and went with Datastream, and that worked out really well for you. So good call turning me down. Wow, gosh. Were you going to hire me? Yeah, I was thinking about it. That's right. That's right. Clarence Bokkney had asked me to talk to you.

Yes, that's right. That's how we met. And you said my Colby's, my scores were almost got me kicked out of there, but I had some kind of corporate hook where I would follow some of the rules you said. Right. Just enough. Yeah. With the D-I-S-C, if your compliance goes all the way down, it's the SOB curve,

and yours kicked up where you could take orders. I guess that was going to the Citadel, drill that into it. So that's called the corporate hook. Okay. Okay, corporate hook, yeah. Okay. But I guess shortly after that, once I became a sales manager, we started a breakfast club.

It was me and you and Marty Osborne and Mike Bauer. Was there anybody else? You remember? I don't recall, but I do recall that we would do that. And I advocate that for our salespeople to start, we call it a Leeds Club, where they get together with people in the same industry, but they don't compete with. So like one of our guys in Charleston, who's, I'm going there for his retirement dinner, sadly, on Thursday night, he's in two Leeds groups. And, for example, he sells construction supplies. One guy rents porta-potties.

So they know about every job going on. One guy rents equipment. Another guy is a concrete pumping company. Yeah. And so they are all in construction, but don't compete with each other, and they all swap leads. And when you get 12 people together in the same industry, you don't miss any job that's going on in that market. Right. They own it.

Well, we did that. I guess all four of us were in technology. And, you know, Mike's built a great company, scan source, multi-billion-dollar tech company. And Datastream did well. And all of your ventures have gone well. And then Marty Osborne just sold his company to Price Waterhouse. So I guess you've got to have those breakfast clubs are a pretty good idea. It's all about networking.

You know, my brother is a great marketeer and a networker. And we were at breakfast a few years ago. He said, how many contacts do you have in your phone? I said, I don't have time to count them. I didn't know this. He said, scroll all the way down to the past Z and it gives you your number. Yeah. And so he held me, held his phone up, and he was real proud.

He had 8,800. And I went down to mine. I said, amateur, 14,000 something like. 14,000. You know, so if I meet somebody and I'm impressed by them, I get their contact info, and you never know. I contact people 12, 15 years after I met them. Yeah. I think that's cool.

And those four people that we used to have breakfast with once a week all wanted to do well in the technology field. That was kind of our common goal. And everybody did. And everyone did. would call each other and say, have you tried this or did you know about this? And we shared some board members and we shared some employees. A lot of times we would interview somebody that didn't quite fit what we needed, but we give them to you or give them to Mike. So anyway, it's a trick, I think, that can be used. It doesn't cost anything.

Well, and I think you know, your father met me for lunch at Stax Omega when I was trying to buy New South and I didn't have the money that I needed. and he sketched out on a napkin how I could structure the deal with mezzanine money and senior lender and outside investors and had put some calls and bought out the outside investors. And I've told your dad many times if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't own the company I own today. He gave me the total structure of the deal. That's great. That's great.

Well, pays the number of your son. I know the whole Sterling family. Good family to know. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, let's start with where you are today. We'll go backwards in a minute, but tell us about New South Construction and where you are today and kind of how you got there.

Well, I bought New South Construction Supply November 1 of 2001 shortly after 9-11. And I was concerned that 9-11 was going to cause a global recession. and I was doing due diligence on what was then only five locations, the fifth location in Charleston the day that the Twin Towers got hit. And I was going through the due diligence, kind of like a zombie. I was stunned about what had happened. And the former owner in New South called me, and he said, you ain't thinking about backing out of this deal, are you?

And I really hadn't thought about that at all. I was just worried about what was going to happen with the world. but give me a little opening, I'll jump into it. And I said, well, now that you mention it. And I said, you know, I don't know that it's a good time to do the deal. And ended up, he negotiated against himself and lowered the price and took more seller paper. And so bought the company that was doing just shy of 10 million out of five locations. So I'm not a math whiz, but I can figure out that was an average of $2 million a location. But I like the platform. I love the phrase there's riches and niches and they sold concrete masonry and waterproofing contractors.

They didn't sell all sorts of contractors, plumbers, electricians, you know, HVAC guys, they had those three niches and they were category killers within that niche. And there was no at that time, there is now, there was no national competitor. There was no 800-pound gorilla that could step on me. And so I decided it was a good deal and bought the company. And this year, we've been in hypergrowth for two years due to a couple things. And I'll come back to that in a second. But, you know, we're on track to do a little over $100 million from $10 million. And that's with two recessions, the Great Recession, 2010 was no fun, lost money three years in a row. I don't like losing at anything, much less at business and plugged through it all and made that a success.

But the things that helped us in the last two years go into hypergrowth is when the pandemic hit, a lot of people who had been resistant to online shopping had to shop online, including my wife, who didn't like to buy groceries or furniture or anything online. But when you're locked down, people had to do it. So that created a huge demand for e-commerce fulfillment warehouses and e-commerce data centers. And we had gotten into tilt-up construction a few years ago, and all of these big warehouses are built via the tilt-up method, which simply is you pour the slab, then you pour the walls on the slab,

and use a crane to lift them up into place, and then the tilt-up braces hold the walls in place while they set in the grout bed. And it's the fastest and cheapest way to build a building. And so these giant warehouses, the biggest one that we've supplied, Walmart import distribution center in Ridgeville, South Carolina, 26 miles north of Charleston, 3 million square feet. Imagine 2,400 loading ducts. And, you know, that building was built in less than a year. If you built that conventional construction with concrete block, laying block, it'd be three or four years, not to mention double or triple the cost. So as the demand for these data centers and distribution centers went through the roof, we had gotten into tilt-up about a year before because I was seeing more and more tilt-up buildings

going up. And we were in the right place at the right time. And a lot of successful people think it's all them. It's hard work, but it's also luck and timing. And we were in the right place at the right time with the right products and then we capitalized on it. And that has really fueled our hypergrowth. the pandemic and tilt up. Yeah, but I would add to that for the listeners, you know,

you've got to be in the game for the luck to mean anything. Right. You're not only in the game, and we'll get to this in a minute, but your whole, almost since you were a teenager, you've been learning kind of the construction supply field and not just, you know, roofing materials, but how the software works and the billing and the whole thing. So, you know, yeah, there's some good fortune that comes along,

but you have to be ready for it. And you were ready for it. Oh, and opportunity knocks. You've got to be there, and then you've got to answer the door. You've got to answer the door. Yeah. Well, that's awesome, man. So how many locations is it now?

We have 10 now. 10 now. We're under a letter of intent for an 11th. Okay. And we've gone from just the Carolinas to the Carolinas, Georgia and Florida. So that means that the revenue per store has gone up to 10 million? We're doing average about 10 million a store. from two million.

A strong. And with Tiltup, the braces that we rent are in very short supply. And one of the things that I will talk about is hitching your wagon to a gazelle that outruns the rest of the pack. Well, we hitched our wagon to a gazelle that's over a billion dollar concrete contractor owned by the Pritzker family, their family office in Chicago that owns Hyatt Hotels and over a thousand other businesses. and so we are supplying them now on jobs from Pennsylvania to Texas because we just ship everything on common carriers. We don't have to run our trucks up to New Jersey and Pennsylvania and Alabama and Florida. We just use common carriers to haul it out to the job site.

Yeah, cool. So you built a heck of a business and it's in the construction supply field. So now let's back up to how you got started in that area. So I suppose it goes back to, I think I know the story, but in high school that your dad was involved in that. Actually, grade school. Great school. My 12th birthday, my father said, happy birthday, no more allowance from now on. You could ride your bike down at the warehouse about four blocks south of our house, and there'll be a to do list for you to do.

And you'll get a pay envelope on Friday like all the other people. And we were union, and banks used to close. Younger people don't know this, but bankers' hours is afraid. as young people aren't familiar with. Banks used to close at 3 p.m. on Friday, so giving a paycheck was no good. They couldn't cash it until Monday. And most construction workers live paycheck to paycheck. So we had to pay in cash.

And the first envelope I got, I opened it up. And I remember there was $28 in there and all cash money. And I said, damn, I'm rich. Yeah. Back then, you know, it sounded like an old guy that I am. I'll be 68 in December. You could get a Coke for a nickel, a Hershey bar for a nickel. So $28 bucks went a hell of a long way.

And then my father also said, whatever you save towards a car, I'll match. And so I saved up $2,800. And on my 16th birthday, he said, show me your passbook savings. I don't think they have that anymore either. And he wrote me a check for $2,800. And for $5,600, I wasn't able to get a brand new car, but it was a one-year-old car with about 8,000 miles on it. And, you know, so then I got used to have a my own car. And I just learned hard work, puts money. in your pocket. And money, you know, doesn't solve all problems, but money gives you options, which properly exercise can lead to happiness. I agree. And so when you were working in that warehouse, what was in the warehouse? It was roofing materials. My father was in a roofing business, commercial roofing, schools, malls, that kind of thing. And so I started off just sweeping up and loading trucks. And then when I got a driver's license, driving a non-CDL truck making deliveries to job sites. Then I worked up on the roofs and I every summer worked on roofing crews and I learned what I didn't want to do for the rest of my life. Every summer I went back to school in the fall

remotivated to do better at school so I didn't have to be a roof for the rest of my life. But, you know, then one summer my father couldn't hire me because the union hall had people that weren't employed and you couldn't hire even your own kid who didn't have a union card if the union guys weren't working. So I worked at a mobile home plant as a welder, welding frames for mobile homes. And I was a truck driver. I did a variety of odd jobs, but I never been afraid of hard work and always liked it giving me money to be able to do what I wanted to do. And so I know where did you go to college? I went to King's College in Wilkesbury, Pennsylvania. And I worked pretty much full-time because it was only seven miles from home. So I took

classes three days a week, which gave me two days off, which I worked full time. And the three days I did take classes, I took eight, nine, and ten a.m. classes. So I was done by ten-fifty. And I'd be at the office by eleven-fifteen. So I was working 30 to 40 hours a week while going to college carrying full-fifteen credit load and playing football and rugby. And then what did you study at college? Political science. Okay. Pre-law.

I wanted to be a lawyer when I was a kid that Perry Mason Show intrigued me. Me too. And so I wanted to be a lawyer, and that was my original intention with going to college. Yeah. I wanted to be a detective like Magnum P.I. That was my... Tom Selleck with a Ferrari. Yeah.

That didn't work out. So I kind of fell for the Polly Sine thing, too. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer and thank goodness from my case. In your case, probably, too. we took another path. So you played rugby in college and football too? Yeah. Okay.

Well, you had a pretty full schedule. Yeah, it didn't give me the greatest grades in the world. But when at BMA sent me to the executive program at Wharton School, I always felt bad about my gentleman C. I had a 2-7. And one of the readings we had to do was a famous article for, from Harvard Business Review, the myth of the well-educated manager. And what it postulated was at that time, 72% of Fortune 500 CEOs had been C students.

We've all heard the phrase C students hire and employ A students. And I found out that when I thought, playing football, partying, chasing girls, playing rugby, was goofing off. I found out I was at Wharton. and they told me I was developing my leadership skills. And so, but I do know, and I employ a lot of people that were for us, students, and they're great at their jobs, but they're not the greatest motivators and leaders. And so you do develop a lot of leadership skills, you know, playing basketball at the Citadel,

playing in Europe. You know, I hire athletes. I look for athletes because if you've played a team sport and if you've had to go to practices and in football, if you had to do two days in the summer, you know, I mean, those were brutal. And to me, riding around in an air-conditioned car making sales calls, that was a piece of cake compared to two of days. Yeah, I agree. So for the nubes, you know, unbelievable work ethic from the time you're 12, learned the trades, working on roofs, you know.

So you're kind of still on this path to be in this field. And I'd say college with the pre-law and stuff, you didn't get much back college-wise to help you. but you did keep working along the way until you got out. So you got out of school. What was the first job? It was with Fry roofing, and they were based in Chicago. They had 24 roofing plants across the U.S. And unbeknownst to me, when I took the job, Mr. Fry's senior was 86,

and Mr. Fry Jr. was 65, and the company was up for sale. And so I take a job with a sinking. ship. And it worked out great because after almost two years there, Owens Corning multinational class company bought them. And I got called in for an interview. I didn't know if I was going to get fired or what. And the national sales manager for the roofing division said, I'm either going to do the smartest thing or the dumbest thing I've ever done. Only time will tell. I'm 23 years old and made me a regional manager over six branches for. the sale of roofing products in the southwest U.S. moved me to Dallas, Texas.

And, you know, here I am 23 years old, and I've got six branches that I'm responsible for, $180 million of P&L responsibility at 23 years old. Baptism by fire. Jeez. That's amazing. So how did that go? Went very well, and I was only there about two years, and our biggest customer owns Corning at that time was Buildermarts of America in Greenville, founded by Clarence Boknight and Tom Rowe,

and they made me an offer at 25 to become a partner. And I said to Clarence, this offer letter, you know, say I can buy $100,000 worth of stock. The problem is, I'm 25, I don't have $100,000. And he said, I'll co-signed a note for you at the bank. And that changed my life because I became a partner. Yeah. We started several companies. We took one public, as you know, the long-distance telephone company.

When they deregulated long distance, we started leasing long lines from AT&T. We leased two Nortel switches, hired a lot of young Turks out of the Citadel, and training was about a half day. Get somebody's phone bill, look at what they're paying for a minute. Here's our rate. Show them how much a month they'll save and go close the deal. Yeah. And I think four years later, we took that company public. Yeah.

And it was out of town. And my wife opened up a check that came in the mail. As we sold it, then we ended up selling it. And I said, there's how much in there? But, you know, that if I'd never become a partner at BMA, if I'd never left Owens Corning. If I'd never left Owens Corning, I'd probably be a retired regional manager living in the villages in Florida. Yeah, I'd been comfortable. Yeah.

But, you know, Clarence said to me, you know, you know, You can stay with Owen's Corning and be comfortable the rest of your life or you can come with me and be a partner and get rich. And that kind of closed a deal for me. He was right. He was right. Depends on how you view rich. Well, but the fact that he co-signed the note, too.

How many people would do that? How can you say no? You're like, yeah, let's do it. You know, that's beautiful. Well, BMA, Builder March America, for the nobs who don't know, It was just a wonderful success story here in Greenville, the first major distributor of building supplies, right? It distributed big building supplies to lumber yards. Well, not the first, but what we did was we were a for-profit buying group competing with nonprofit co-ops.

Okay. And people would say to me, prospects, how can you save me more money than LMC? They don't make a profit. They're a nonprofit company. and a phrase I used to use is, do you ever use UPS? They're a profit-making company, but U.S. Postal Service is nonprofit. Why do you use UPS? You know, why do you have a problem?

You know, why do you not have a problem using UPS when they make a profit? They have people that care about the business. They have a profit incentive. They're shareholders. They have stock options. And they work harder. How many people do you ever see in the Postal Service that died of a heart attack? You know, and so that was our pitch.

and grew the company. Well, when I started it was $82 million, but Clarence started it with Tom Rose at zero. And I think 23 years at $932 million sold the company. So I almost paid a billion dollars. Yeah, that's awesome. And little old Greenville, South Carolina. Great story and brought many people like yourself to Greenville.

It was been great for the town. We had Bill Lee on a few weeks ago. Well, you look at all the successes that spun out of BMA, Charlie Hauser, Layton Cubbage, Dean Varner, I mean, Ned Carter. I mean, there were so many people. It was like a finishing school for business people. Well, just to summarize where we are so far, I mean, Jim, great work ethic, learned all about the building trades. I think you got that first roofing job probably pretty easily based on your background.

I had 12 offers. Right, because you had all this experience. You could talk about the squares and the this and the temperature. whatever you know about actually doing roofing that I would know. And then the fact that they promoted you so quickly, anybody who saw that would think this guy's got to be a real star. So at every turn, I think people are able to see this shine. And that's why Clarence wanted to pluck you away.

Well, when Clarence sent me to Dallas at 27 back to Dallas after three years in Greenville to open the Dallas office in 82 and sent for, Francisco and 84, I said to them years later, what the hell were you thinking to send a 27-year-old out to lease the top floor of First Texas Tower and hire all these people? He said, I thought long and hard about who to send out there. And he said, I knew you were young and inexperienced. I knew you didn't make a lot of mistakes, but I knew you wouldn't make them twice. And I couldn't think of anybody else that would put the effort in that you put in and it worked out. Nice.

A gotta made mistakes. Yeah. What kind of mistakes? Hiring people, you know, mainly hiring mistakes, you know, not spending the time. Our mutual friend, Bill Lee, calls it hire slowly and fire quickly. You know, take your time in hiring. And when you decide somebody's not right, don't let it drag on for a year or two. Go ahead and pull the plug because you're both miserable.

Anybody not succeeding in their job isn't having fun. Right. And as their manager, you're not having fun. So, and the misery for both. So we're going on to the assumption here that you, if you're hiring, that you want to get the right person for the job and that that's for their best interest too. Right. So when you're hiring now, what kind of things are you looking for that would make them the right fit for, let's say, one of your sales jobs? Well, I mentioned we're very prejudiced towards athletes.

You know, people who've played a team sport, people who've guided it out through practice, people who've learned how to win and also how to lose, how to bounce back from losing, we really do look for jocks. But then beyond that, we look for a lot of other things. We use the Wonderlook intelligence test to look for smarts because you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I mean, if somebody's not too bright, I don't care how hard they work, they're going to make mistakes. And our business quoting multi-million dollars jobs, you know, you can lose your butt if somebody can't do basic math. We're not talking about calculus here.

We're talking about multiplication, division, subtraction. So we look for at least the 100 IQ, and that's basically a 25 on the Wonderlich test. And a lot of people know the Wonderlich from the NFL Combine. And, you know, the highest score ever was recently retired quarterback Ryan Fitzgerald, who knows, no, prize went to Harvard. And the lowest ever was Vince Young, you know, Heisman Trophy winner from Texas. And Vince had a seven. And I'm not trying to be funny or cute here because it's sad. Seven is legally retarded. And Vince bombed out of the league, filed bankruptcy. And, you know, so intelligence is important. So we look for that. And then we use a battery

of assessments. I think you're familiar with all of them. We use the DISC. And it shows dominance. influencing ability, steadiness, and compliance. So for a salespeople, you obviously want high influencing ability, not low. And you want low steadiness where they can multitask and keep 10, 20 prospects, juggling, and take care of customers. And you want enough stubbornness they don't give up easily. But we mentioned earlier, the corporate hook. You want the low steadiness for multitasking.

Then you want that compliance to kick up somewhere. they'll at least follow some orders, maybe not all. And then we use the Colby. I know you're familiar with that. And that shows fact finder, follow through, quick start and implementer. Most are pretty self-evident. Fact finders, do you get your facts straight? Follow through, do you follow up?

Quick start, do you need a kick in the ass to get going or do you need to be rained in? And implementer is the one that faked me out at first. It's not how you implement plans, but it's how you deal with manual implements. and I'm a two in Quick Start. I hire people to hang pictures. I'm not a handy guy. So if I see somebody that has got a nine and implementer and they want a sales job, they're only going to do it for the money.

They want to be building their cabinet in the lake. They want to build kitchen cabinets in their basement. Yeah. So we use that. And then we use the AQ, the Athene quotient, which measures 20 things about a person. And the interesting thing about this is it measures work side. and personal side. And you'll see somebody who's got a great work side profile. And then you'll see their personal profile is in shambles. And you have to watch what you ask people in interviews.

So I'll say to somebody, I'm puzzled by this. Your work side is perfect. And your personal side does not look good at all. And then I'll just stop. Well, I'm going through a real ugly divorce. And, you know, or there's some other issue. And, you know, especially, especially hiring when I was hiring a C-O recently, you don't want to hire a C-O who's going through an ugly divorce. That's going to be first on his mind, not taking care of business. And, you know, the guy that I hired his work side and his personal side were very much in harmony. We had about the same D-I-S-C profile. We were both high quick-start guys. You know, there was a previous person that washed out. He had a two and quick start to my seven. And I was constantly kicking him

in the ass and he got tired of being kicked and I got tired of kicking. And so, you know, when you have those, I call them windows into someone's soul, you can do a much better job of hiring. So if you look at their background and you look at if they played sports and then intelligence and then the psychological profile, if all those things mesh, your chances of success are much higher. Yeah, I totally agree. That's wonderful. You do more than I do because you're probably more thorough. But the question, the pushback I get sometimes on that, kind of hiring is people like, God, how am I going to find someone that fits all this? And, you know, my answer is, well, if you don't, you shouldn't be hiring anybody, right? I mean, if you don't find

the right fit, do without. Absolutely. Never put a warm body in a slot. Our COI was looking for a market president for North Carolina. He interviewed 92 people until he found the right person. There you go. And it's awful tempting when you have an opening to fill. Right. Jam a warm body in there, but you're going to regret it sooner later. Right. So he waited for Mr. Perfect, and man, did he find him? I mean, this guy's only on board about a month, and I'm already blown away. I think, Jim, I think it's when people ask me about the data stream growth from one salesperson to 100, you know, how did that happen?

And I think when we discovered the Colby, when Bill helped me, and we discovered the Colby and hiring athletes and people from Clemson-Ferman Citadel, and just kind of started narrowing what we looked for. Once we figured out what we needed and that we could find them, Larry and I looked at each other, then we could do this. We could hire 80 more people like this because the market was big enough. That's when we had our little moment. Did you have a moment like that at New South where you're like,

oh my gosh, I think I can do this 10 times? Yeah, well, once we established the profile for success, then when you do run, run people through the assessments, the ones that you want to hire jump off the page at you. And then one of the things I always tell people about growth is you have to systematize things. You can't do a series of one-offs. We have a policy and procedures manual that when we open a new branch, here, here's the rulebook, here's how you run this branch. And you don't have to wing it and see if this works or doesn't work. And then I'm a big believer in checklists.

One thing I learned from Clarence Boknight, Clarence had a checklist for various types of vacations. He had a scuba diving checklist, a skiing checklist, a hunting checklist. And so I've got checklists. And then all you've got to do is go down the checklist and put a quantity next to boxer shorts, T-shirts, you know, whatever you need for the trip. And when you have checklist for things, you don't forget anything. Yeah, yeah, I got it.

Well, you're right. You're right. And I suppose you can keep doing that and you can go to 11, 12, 13. You've got the manual now. Right. Okay. So Clarence had you and then I want to make sure we cover this chapter. You did a lot of different things for BMA. And then you segue it into, y'all bought or started a software company? Now BMA owned a software company. And it was failing. And it was losing. about $2 million a year, had negative net worth of $4.4 million. If it wasn't owned by BMA with cross guarantees, it would have been bankrupt. And I was itchy to run my own show after a while.

I was still naive enough to think I knew it all. And so Clarence said to me, a young guy like you ought to know something about computers, I'd like you to go downstairs and get in the computer business. And I said, Clarence, I don't even have a PC. I don't know anything about computers. It's all the more reason you ought to go. So I went down as VP of sales for enterprise computer systems. And two years after I was there, Clarence made me president and COO.

And he said in his inimitable fashion, if you don't screw things up, I'll make you CEO in another couple years. So at 38, he made me CEO. Yeah. And did eight acquisitions in 15-year period and grew that company exponentially and got a call one day that there was an investment bank that was looking to buy the business on behalf of a client and sold it and took some time off, did a little soul searching about what I wanted to do and wanted to have my own show. I didn't want to have any partners anymore. and I couldn't come up with the money. And your father structured the deal for me. Here's how the various layers you put in your money, get investors, get senior debt, get

mezzanine debt, and then over time pay off the mezzanine, buy out the investors, and my family and I have owned 100% of the company for about six years now. Nice, nice. Without your dad's advice, I probably would have given up and said, I can't do this. You can't swing it. I'm so glad. Well, you were smart enough to reach out to people to ask for help. I always say surround yourself with people smarter than you and then listen to them. Well, you know, like you, I've got a lot of friends, a lot of people I've worked with in the past,

and the ones that are most likely to call me and say, John, I've got this thing I'm working on. I want your opinion. They're the most successful people. People you would think would never call me for advice, but they'll probably call five people and ask that question. Right. And it's a free call. Well, and we have a board of directors that are all outsiders, and we have five outside directors and me. And most privately held companies, it's the owner, his wife, his golf buddy, and his lawyer. Yeah.

And, you know, and you know on Enterprises board, Richard Brock. And, you know, we had really good board, that company, this company, we were like a public company board. we run the board meetings like we're public. We have the minutes of every board meeting back to 2001. And Clarence always said, run the company like you're going to sell it tomorrow. And that way, if you do go to sell it, you can do it quickly because we have audited statements. We have all the board minutes. We have a real board of directors.

And somebody, you know, if I was going to sell it, which I'm not, I'm converting to an ESOP employee stock ownership plan. and all the people who've been loyal to me for the last 20 years are going to end up being owners of the company. That's really cool. And didn't BMA do that? BMA of the first DOSP in South Carolina. Yeah. That's a great way to do it, Jim. That's great.

A couple more questions. I always ask people about head trash because I'm fascinated with it and how we all get this head trash in our brains from school or parents or friends or TV or. something. And, you know, things like, you know, I'm too old to start a business or I'm too young to start a business or I went to the wrong school to do this. The list goes on and on. Can you talk about any head trash that you've had in your brain that you've overcome? You've figured out what's wrong and gotten over it? Well, the only head trash I've ever had, because I'm an incurable optimist. Not much gets me down. But I read an article about imposter syndrome probably 20 years ago and that some people say, I don't deserve this success. I'm faking it. I'm an imposter. I'm

going to be found out that I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. And I did have a little period of imposter syndrome where I was worried that, you know, I was just winging it and my luck was going to run out. But, you know, just kept plotting on and making things work. And it's been a long time since I've worried about imposter syndrome. I bet. I bet. Yeah, I think I think I've read the solution there is to acknowledge that it's in the brain somewhere and just go ahead and do it anyway, right? You know, and a big part is being a lifelong learner. You know, there is no finish line. I have a friend who proudly proclaims he's not read a book since college. And I'm I mean, if I had not done that, that would be one of my deepest, darkest secrets.

Right. And he's why I just like magazines, you know. And, you know, what I really am hooked on lately is podcasts. You know, I used to listen to music. I'd see you at the Y working out. And now I listen to podcasts every day. When I'm at the gym, I was listening to a podcast on my way here today. I listen to podcasts every waking moment.

And sometimes I'm just cleaning up email. I put my AirPods in. I listen to a podcast while I'm responding to emails. But it's like getting a PhD for free, all the different subjects that I learn from listening to podcasts. And then I still am a sucker for reading and going to seminars. And I'm in a worldwide group of CEOs called Chief Executives Organization. And we have events all around the world and bring in thought leaders on all sorts

of subjects and, you know, there just is no finish line with learning. And I feel sorry for people who think they've breached it because there is none. There's none. Yeah. I know there's none with you. I agree. No. So what are you listening to these days? Well, I love Freakonomics. Okay. And I love a spinoff from Freakonomics called No Stupid Questions. Okay. Stephen Dubner, who co-wrote Freakonomics with Steve Levitt. He does No Stupid Questions with a professor of psychology from UPenn. And that's an outstanding one. And then when I was listening to on the way down,

and I just finished it in the parking lot, one called Dirty Money, a guy from Atlanta called Paul Ollinger, who retired young. He was in investment banking and then was with Facebook. And it was the story of Carlos Gown and him escaping from Japan. and his years in Greenville. I don't know if you remember. When Carlos Gown ran Michelin North America out at Pelham Road,

he was 31 years old. And Francois Michelin made him president of Michelin, North America, 31. And he listened to his rise and fall and the hubris that got him when he started cutting corners and hiding payments to himself and things like that. And that was fascinating. I really enjoy that one a lot. I like anything related to sports and leadership. And there's one called the corporate leader.

And it talks about Don Yeager, the author, about how most Fortune 500 CEOs played college sports. And that's a really good one. There's just so many podcasts guy named Bradley Hartman, who Bill Lee introduced me to. Bradley does a lot of podcasts on the construction industry and a lot of thought leaders from that industry. So, you know, Joe Rogan, I mean, there's so many podcasts. So there's, I read recently there's something like 30 million podcasts out there floating around in the ether. Right. And you get to hear people talk about their specialty, whatever you're into.

It's pretty cool. So add Noob School to the list. We've got an excellent podcast. Some of your best friends will be on here. No, I've listened to them. Okay, good. Last question. What's your favorite word?

My favorite word is relentless. You know, I know that shocks you, but, you know, to me, you just have to be relentless and never give up. And I'll try to make this quick story. Clarence was so proud of me over this. I was relentless trying to get an appointment to see two brothers that in their 30s took over a family lumberyard, a big one, in St. Louis, and try to get them to become a customer of ours. And I couldn't even get an appointment. And I figured, you know, if they meet me, you know, we're similar ages. They're going to like me.

and I just couldn't get in the door. So I was calling for appointments. I got to know the receptionist, and she just said, you know, the answer was no. So I fly to St. Louis. I rent a car. I drive there. I walk in and I told her my name, and she said, oh, God, no. You know, I've told you that the Millmans don't want to see you.

And I said, yeah, well, I mean, I'll take an educated note from anyone. Tell them I came all the way from South Carolina. If they give me 15 minutes and tell me to leave, I'll never bother you or them again. So she buzzed him and she said, because of that, I will call him. He told me never to mention you again. And so she said, he told me to tell you to leave or to call the police and have you arrested for trespass after notice. And I sat down in a chair like this. I said, call the cops.

I'm not going. I'm not being a quitter. And so she buzzes the CEO again. Yeah, he's right here. He said he's not leaving. Okay, I will. He said, last chance. I'm calling the cops.

I said, go for it. I picked a magazine up from the coffee table. So I'll be right here. 15 minutes later, two cops walk in, walk over to her. She points to me. You guys come over and say, what's going on? I said, these guys won't see me. I'm sitting out here until they will.

That's not how it works, son. You know, young enough to still call me son. And he said, you know, you got to leave. Just trespass after notice. I said, not gone. It's your last chance, sir. We're going to arrest you for trespass after notice. I said, you're going to have to arrest me because I'm not a quitter.

and I got up and they handcuffed me and put me in the squad car, took me down the station, and they said, if you promise, you'll never go back there again, we'll just let you go. I can't do that. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to go back. And so I ended up, I got a $100 ticket for trespass after notice, and I put it on my expense report because I knew Clarence would approve it. And Clarence was so proud of me.

And I told my salespeople, you can quit on a prospect when you get arrested for trespass after notice. Other than that, you keep calling them until they buy or you die. That's right. I totally agree. I knew you were. You totally agree. You've established my favorite story. You established the bar.

Okay, now we can check them off the list. I love it. Well, listen, I know you're busy building this darn $100 million company, but I appreciate you coming and I appreciate your wonderful, long friendship between our families. No, it's been great. Our families have been helpful to each other and knowing you all these years and watching you reinvent yourself several times and never know what you're going to look like. I know.

I'm ponytail now. Playing saxophone and all that stuff. So thank you, John. It's been my pleasure. Appreciate it, Jim. Thank you. All right.