Noob School - Episode 56: A Masterclass In Securing A Sales Job with Greg Gardner

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

In this episode of the Noob School podcast, John Sterling is joined by his old friend and colleague, currently the Director of Partner Sales at Appian Corporation, Greg Gardner. The duo talk about their good ol’ days at DataStreams, and what Greg has been up to since he left the company. What follows is a veritable masterclass on choosing what sales job you want to do, and several tips on how to get that job too.  HIGHLIGHTSMaking it easier for organizations to build unique apps fast with AppianWinners look at the chaos and create order out of itA look back at John and Greg's early days at DataStreamThe value of recording and listening to your own calls The power of storytelling in sales Look for companies that you want to work forUnderstand yourself and the way you do your best work Work with people who compliment your unique gifts and skills What does your best day look like?Developing curiosity and knowing how to ask good questions Where music and sales meet  QUOTESGreg on always looking for ways to make things work: "There's always an opportunity. There's an opportunity within the business to make it better. There's an opportunity for individual people to take a step up during these times. When something unplanned hits, you always have an opportunity to step in somewhere."Why you need to learn storytelling in sales, says Greg: "In my opinion, I think one of the key things that a noob can do is learn stories. Be able to recite them. You could actually wake up at 3 am and recite five stories for different verticals, different industries or what have you. I would've spent all my time doing that instead of worrying about whether I was gonna know the answer to some technical question."Greg's tip on deciding the company and kind of sales job you like doing:  "Sometimes you need to not think of it in terms of I want to work for this company or this industry and I want to be in this position. Think about, okay, what do your best days look like? When you really feel like you're engaged and living life to the fullest, what does that look like? Do you enjoy being around people, or do you enjoy more, working in solitude, like a programmer or something like that?" Connect with Greg by visiting the link below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregorydgardner/ Connect with Noob School and John by visiting the following links:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsterling1/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnsterlingsalesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnsterling_/Twitter: https://twitter.com/johnsterling_TikTok: https://twitter.com/johnsterling_Website: http://salestrainingfornoobs.com/

It's a set of circumstances, you know, it's corporations, people, dynamics that are always changing, right? And music is very similar to that, right? There's a whole bunch of possibilities that you can play, just limitless possibilities. And when you're playing with people, then you get input from those people. And then you're reacting to that input. It's very similar to, like, you know, when you're in a sales camp, pain and you're trying to figure out how to get this organization because, you know, six people are responsible for buying your product now, right? It's not just one person. So you're trying to

figure out all those dynamics at the same time and trying to place your product into their organization and get them to give you their currency for that value, right? Welcome back to Noob School. This is where we interview successful business owners, and we dial it back to the beginning and figure out what they do. did to make their revenue grow. All right, welcome back to Noob School. John Sterling here. Today I've got, no, you've heard me say this before, but this time I really mean it.

Greg Gardner, one of my, one of my all-time friends and colleagues going back a number of years, who's visiting from California, from Southern California. So welcome aboard, Greg. Thanks, John. Glad to be here. Yes, sir. And you're now running partnerships out west for Appian. Is that right?

That's right. Okay. And Appian, in my mind, it's kind of coding shortcuts. Like you can code faster with Appian. Yeah, low-code automation, which is a category within Gartner. Okay. And we make it easy for organizations to build unique applications fast. So like, for instance, during the pandemic, you know, our business went way up because so many business had to change their workflows. and change the way they do business very quickly. They had like three weeks in order to create new workflows because of the pandemic.

So we did really well during that time. And I think we're positioned to do really well even through the tough economic times that are going to help. Of course, that's great. And so when that happened, how long from the time that they said everyone's got to stay home until you and your management team figured out that you had to check that? James this messaging. I mean, it was quick. The customers that we had already knew the power of that platform.

So they were able to take what they had already created and reused some of it to recreate certain workflows. And then there were a lot of new customers that we brought on because they simply could not do the work fast enough in the traditional methods like Java coding or other types of coding. So they were able to move probably 15 to 20 times faster. And the ones that didn't, you know, they didn't make it through the, they took a big hit. Right.

Because they just really needed to move quickly. Right. Well, again, we have a great message already from this podcast, which is if something, you know, let's say bad or crazy or different happens in your business life, you know, the first thing you need to ask is, you know, how can we make this work? Right. Right. What can be good about this? That's right. And it might not be good for everything, but you can usually find some place where you can make it good.

Well, there's always an opportunity, right? Yeah. There's an opportunity within the business to make it better. There's an opportunity for individual people to take a step up during these times or when things are, when something unplanned hits, you always have an opportunity to step in somewhere. Right. And some people avoid that. And I think, you know, the winners step into a situation where there's chaos and create order out of it. Yeah.

And I agree. You can think about a football team. I don't follow football that close to anymore, but I remember hearing Davosweeney a couple years ago when I think the quarterback or the star running back got hurt. And everyone was just like, oh, there goes the national champion. And they started to freak out. And he's like, this is a chance for the backup guy to step in there. Let's see what he's got. That's right.

which is, you know, whether it happened or not, I don't know, but it was the right attitude. Well, yeah, and he has a bigger mission, right? Yeah. Like, when you listen to him talk, you know, when they've had off years, they'll say, well, how do you feel about not being able to get to the championship or what have you? And he goes, well, you know, we didn't get there, but, you know, our goal here is to build good, solid men. Yeah. That's his goal. Yeah.

Oh, if they win, that's great. Yeah. You know, but, you know, that's the other thing when you're, you know, a noob in a situation where they're in their first job, they need something bigger than just, oh, I want to do great at this job. They want to, they want to have a great career and they want to have a fulfilling career. That's the idea. And then as a result of that bigger mission, you're going to have more success, smaller successes as a result of that. You know, we worked together when we were both, noobs, basically. I mean, we were both, you know, I was maybe.

a new plus two years, but I was certainly a new sales manager, and when you and I started working together. And I did not have that attitude. I was really all about I want to be Steve Jobs, you know, by the end of the month. Right, right. And you know, just kind of too big of a hurry, instead of taking that longer

view of, let's think about what John looks like when he's 40. Right. What are we going to do between now and then to get him ready? Right. To be able to do these things. And I don't remember what you were thinking back then. You know, back then I remember thinking that when I went to the interview with you, I remember I was decked out in my consulting suit, right?

I mean, it was a nice suit because I was just working for our mutual friend, David Cheneer. I'd come off that. And his rule was you couldn't go to any assignment unless you look good or better than whoever you're meeting with. So I was like, and you were in your – khakis and I've never seen a working because I thought okay everybody wears suits in their work environment I went to data stream and you know there's the bullpins and people with their headsets on and selling and we had our first interview and I was just so uptight and I remember calling you after saying hey I don't think I did very well on that interview and you say well come on back in we'll

talk about it you're eating popcorn and yeah we had a popcorn and uh yeah and so but then I was a nub at selling, right? And I remember kind of taking on this idea, okay, well, if I'm going to sell, I got to be like a salesperson. And there are few professions in our life that have strong, strong stereotypes. Politicians, stereotype, lawyers stereotype. Salespeople stereotype, right? And, you know, you immediately think salesperson, use car salesperson, right? And so I remember, well, now I've got to be this salesperson. Hi, I'm Greg. Right. I got to take on these attributes of a salesperson that I stereotyped over my entire life. And so I started to try to be something I wasn't. And that was one of the biggest mistakes I made at the beginning is that I was trying, I thought I had to be somebody different. to be a good salesperson.

Yeah. And the truth of the matter is, you absolutely don't want to do that. Right. You know, you want to be a very good, solid version of yourself. Yes. And, but, you know, you think about two different types of salesperson that we both know. You think of a guy like Todd Lorbach, right? You know, he is, he is the message.

He is a guy you immediately trust. You want to do business with him because he's just a solid person and you get that impression and he's bringing that, that's who he is, right? He's bringing that to the table. You could take a guy like Mark Vetzel, one of the funniest people I've ever met in my entire life, like probably could have had a career as a stand-up comedian, right? He brings that as well as his own integrity to the table. So they each brought something different, but it was themselves that they brought to that. And that was one of the mistakes at the beginning that I made is that I thought I had to be someone else. And if I would have just concentrated in

being who I was, I think I would have launched a little bit better. Right. I agree. We have a couple of videos at noobschool.org on that, on speaking with your own voice. Yeah. And, you know, as a sometimes buyer, if I'm on the buyer side, if the salesperson is speaking to me with an inauthentic voice, it's just no. The answer is no. I'm not going to deal with a non-person. Like, hello, Mr. Sterling, this is Francis Lupy. You know, no. So it's the easy thing to do once you do it just to be yourself. Another person, you mentioned Todd and you mentioned Mark. So John Harrison's a third person we've talked about, who we also worked with.

And he's like a super serious guy. You know, he's very adult-like, very serious. And he just patiently works through the details with the customer and kind of helps. and kind of helps them build a return on investment, and he's very patient with him. And the result of that is he ends up getting these bigger and larger deals. Right. Because he's patient.

You and I would have taken, like, the $8,000 deal and just ran out the door. Oh, yeah. Because I've got to get to the next one. Right. The real money is. Well, anyway, you should have known. I probably should have told you because the time I met Greg, I was just getting into music.

I think I've been playing for like a year. and Greg, at the bottom of his resume, it said he majored in jazz studies at Furman, and I'm like, we're hiring this guy. I don't care what, you know, he's on board. You just didn't know it yet. That's why you came back and we had some more conversations. Plus, I knew you'd be good at it. I remember that, that we talked on the phone, and you'd ask me, oh, you play the piano,

and you were studying piano at the time. And so that's another thing. Music's open so many doors for me that don't have anything to do with music, really. You know, so that's, that was a fun part of data stream was being able to build up your business talents. And at the same time, you know, I was still nurturing my music talent as well, which was fun. Yeah. And so, so that was good. Yeah.

Greg has been with us now for maybe a year at this time, so you're probably 24 or so. still a noob, and we used to make you guys make actual, you know, recorded conversations of an actual call with an actual prospect. And I can tell you, it's a nightmare. Nobody wants to do it. But even today, if you do it on your phone or anything else, it is a quick way to learn, you know, what you're doing wrong, that you can quickly change. Not Greg, but another guy I had, he said basically like five times per conversation. Right. And that's one of those things that a client will just, they won't say anything,

but those people are like, I don't want to talk to this guy anymore. He says basically all the time. But anyway, Greg, Greg had very good calls. But one time, he and his, they would train in sets of twos. He and Maggie brought me their tapes. And Greg, you know, he recorded his tape. and then at the end of it, after I listened to it with him, it sounded pretty good, it kept going. They forgot to his stop.

And Greg was telling Maggie how stupid this was. John's wasting our time or something like that. He goes, this is so stupid. She was like, it's okay, Craig. He was just trying to help us. He's like, it's stupid. And when I heard that, that's when Greg and I really became good friends. We crossed over at that moment.

That could have gone either way. I'd say that was one of the most helpful things. It really was. I mean, it put pressure on you, right? And I think that's one of the reasons I resisted it at first. Yeah. But to hear yourself in a conversation with someone else was so valuable because you can hear how something should flow, right? How it should flow.

One of the things I used to do because of lack of confidence and you noobs probably, some of you may do this is ask a question. And then before the person can answer, ask another question because you don't like that silence in between the question and the answer. One of the things John taught us all is that let that silence just sit there because what's coming next could be the game changer, right? That could be the thing that really set you loose on the deal. But I think there's a certain lack of confidence with young salespeople that make them. you know, want to fill up that space, right? Fill that space up. But the truth is, no, don't fill it up.

Yeah. Let it just sit there. Yeah. See what happens. The uncomfortable silence. Yeah. Yeah. And another, I mean, to go even further is when the person says something like, you know,

we need to get this by next week. Instead of just jumping all over that. Like next week, next week, let them then go even further. Right. You know, and they take it, they tell you more about next week, why next week. So anyway, that's a, that was, that was fun. I knew it was painful. But I also saw how quickly people would improve with those tapes.

It was fun too, though. It was kind of fun. If you get groups of people in there listening to all the things that people do on calls under pressure, it's really funny sometimes. Yeah. I'll tell you one thing, John, one of the things I would change is, I was thinking about this before the podcast is that I was focusing a lot on maybe product knowledge and trying to figure out how the product worked and being able to know certain the answers

to certain technical questions. And I'll tell you, what I would do now differently is learn stories. I mean, you can walk into a situation, a new job, a new tech selling job, or any type of selling job. You're not going to know day one, day five, day 30, day 60, all about those products that you're selling. But what you can do is you can learn five stories about those products. And I don't mean just, I mean, really learn those stories. Like, here's, here's who the company was. Here's the situation that they found themselves in. They could no longer do business this way. They bought our stuff. Here's what happened. And here's the results of that.

and tell it like a, you know, tell it like a bedtime story like you would do with your kids where there's, where there's tension that builds up and then there's a release of that tension because that's really what connects you. Right. Right. So in my opinion, I think one of the key things that a noob can do is learn stories. Yeah. Learn them, like, like be able to recite them. You could actually wake up at 3 a.m. and recite five stories for different verticals, different industries or what have you. I mean, I would have spent all my time doing that instead of worrying about whether I was going to know the answer to some technical question.

To a fixed or floating work order. Exactly. Because then I learned another thing, another mutual friend of ours, Steve Bosworth taught me, was, you know, when you're a noob and somebody ask a technical question, you're like, oh, I know the answer to that question, right? You're so excited. And now it's like, okay, you know, I can tell you the answer to that question. but my pre-sales person, Alfonso, or whoever that is, he can give you some real context around the answer to that question. And then all of a sudden, you're threading your pre-sales person in,

you're threading all these other support people on your team in, and you're not the only one that your boss calls when it's at the end of the quarter and that deal is supposed to be in. There are three or four or five other people that know where we are in that process, and it's not just you. Yeah. So stories are huge, and it's not just being able to tell stories. It's also this other side of it is, and this is something that's taken me a lot longer to learn.

But we kind of push our prospects into this idea of, okay, tell me what your critical business issue is. Well, you know, and I think it's good that you know those things, right? But behind every critical business issue is a story on their side. Like somebody walked into somebody's office and slammed the door, right? And yelled. Yeah. Right. Right.

Because what happens is with critical business issues over time, the urgency dilutes. Like, so you talk to this person. They're like, we've got to get this stuff. We've got to get a product like this in. Over time, that critical business issue or the reason they're doing it sort of fades away. But the story about the guy slamming the door in the office and yelling. that doesn't fade away. That's still an urgent part of the process.

So you've got to constantly remind your prospect why this is important beyond, oh, we want to do some cost cutting or something like that. It's because, no, no, because these people at this company are just people. The corporation is just a piece of paper. They're all just people with relationships, right? And you have to figure out how you're going to get

something to do something that you want them to do because they want to do it. Yeah. Right? And the stories are the best way to do that, I think. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I'm with you also on nobody, really, whether they're nobs or not, getting too deep technically with people too early on because it's just you're wasting this valuable time

when you can be finding out what the real problems are. Right. And why are they doing this? Those kinds of things while you're talking about, you know, this and that and gigahertz and, you know, but I think prospects ask those questions because they don't know what to do. No. Right? That's a normal thing for them that do is to say, well, tell me about your product.

Right. How old is your company? And, you know, that's not solving their problem either. No. It's the easy way out on both sides. Right. So, you know, so many people are willing to play along. Other sides?

I think you're right. Because what happens, I think, is you fall into these roles. I'm the salesperson and I'm the prospect. And I think really the salesperson that wins is the first one that actually steps out of that stereotypical role and becomes a co-seller with the prospect. It's not like you're selling them. You're co-selling with them into the organization. And so, you know, I think, and that requires some, I think, authenticity, kind of an overused word now. But it requires that you, I think everything that you, I think everything that you,

you do in a sales process either supports or takes away from that sales stereotype. So if you do something, if you say something that sounds cheesy, you just get put in that bucket. Yeah. And the more you do things that are outside of that stereotype, the better off you're going to be. Yeah. I agree. So really, we haven't gotten much past, we're not even past Datastream yet with that experience.

But how long were you with Datastream before you made the move? seven years. Seven years. It was my longest time I've been anywhere. Yeah, so Greg obviously did a great job working with us, and then we put him in charge of partnerships, and you brought in Wonderware, which was a great partner, and then Wonderware stole you away.

They stole me away, yeah. Oh, damn, some bitches. They stole you away, and then moved you to California, and you never came back. Move me to California and then put me in charge of the OEM program they had in Japan. So I spent, I spent, you know, probably in total, a couple of years over in Japan, working our business over there. So I've had sort of a background that's been direct sales, managing sales, alliances, partnerships. Because I like, I like the complex, the more complex it is, the more I like it.

there's more room to be creative when you're doing like complex, you know, reseller or, you know, partner-type deals. So it gives you a little more flexibility. And I like doing different things for different organizations. So when you were with Wonderware and they had you focusing on Japan, how many like distributors did you have over there? So we probably, well, we had one main distributor in Japan. And if you know anything about the, you know, Japanese business,

The big, we call it Japan Inc. You know, Yamataki, Yokagawa, Yamaha, all the big Japanese companies have these little spin-off companies. And typically what happens is when you're a noob, you come up through one of those smaller companies, distribution companies. Then you make it to a larger organization. And then as, you know, you're working out of the, coming out of the workforce, you go back to to nurture those newbies, right? So it's kind of a self-sustaining, nurturing-type environment where all the nubes are getting trained by the folks that are finishing up their careers. So we had probably one main distribution partner there, but we sold to all the different, all the big Japan ink companies. Okay.

They all rolled up into that or they bought from that company. Yeah, they bought from that one. It was a subsidiary of Sumitomo rubber. Okay. Sumitam. Okay. What experience. So you did that. Did you do anything else unique at Wonderware? Yeah, actually. I was the only one that came from Enterprise Asset Management Company, and we bought a company in Burlington, Ontario, called Vantus. Okay. Since I was the only one that knew, understood that business, I ran that organization after we bought it and assimilated it into Wonderware at the time. And then we got bought by a bigger company and you know how that whole cycle goes, right?

So, yeah, so I lived up in Toronto for about six months. Wow. Okay. Cool. And then what about after that? After Wonderware was Cognos, which got business intelligence, got bought by IBM. Okay. And then SAP and then Click. Yeah, so I was at IBM for a while. That was the second longest term, so like six years. So, yeah, it was a good experience. But a couple of these changes have been because of acquisitions,

Wonderware and Cognos, I guess. Yeah, yeah. But you have over the course of 30 years, you've moved to several different, really interesting, unique technology companies, most of them on the West Coast. Yeah. Okay. Much experience in Silicon Valley?

Yeah. I've worked for three Silicon Valley companies. Success factors was one of them. Dubbid was one of them. Dubbid, yeah. And then most recently, Cloud Era, which is a big data company. Yeah. I've worked for three Silicon Valley companies.

What's that like? It has its pros and cons, right? The pros are this huge innovation. There's a lot of excitement. it's a lot of really smart people, a lot of really hungry people. And so that's the good part of it because you're always learning something. You're always on the edge of something. But the other side is really transient, right?

I think a lot of people are there and they're like, okay, you know, we're going to go public. I'm going to get my little piece of that and I'm gone to the next thing, right? They're hopping around. They're hopping around a lot. I mean, people don't stay there very long. So there's a lot of turbulence in those organizations. And then once you're out of that, you know, once the newness is worn off in the valley, you're just sort of, you're just kind of like, yeah.

What do you mean? There's always somebody else. Oh, you mean once the company newness is worn off? Yeah, there's always somebody else, right? There's always the new company that's the Starling that becomes, the talk of the town and you're sort of set to the side. But overall, I've met some of the smartest, hardworking people that I've ever met in my career in Silicon Valley.

And they, you know, for the most part, what they do is they vet out ideas. You know, it's just constant idea after idea after idea. And so I've enjoyed that part of my career. My current company's in D.C. and that's nice too. It's nice to work for companies outside of that. There's definitely a chaotic, you know, element to Silicon Valley work. Yeah.

Yeah. I suppose that might, again, on the Ying and the Yang, probably cool to work for a place where everyone's swinging for the fences. And, you know, but on the other hand, it's kind of nice to work for a stable company that's just churning out steady growth every year and building up something, solid. That's true. So I suppose SAP was kind of like that, right?

SAP, very solid company. Pretty good company to work for as far as big companies go. But they also had a lot, they have a lot to do with everything, and they have a place in Silicon Valley, right? And so you don't get very far in the business technology world unless you have some kind of relationship to SAP. in a sense that you have to connect SAP in some way. So, or Oracle. Those are the two big ones. Well, let's talk, you know, one of the things is very interesting to our nubes is, like, how to get that first job, how to interview to get that first job.

And, of course, you boned your first interview with me, but you were a music major. So I don't know if all these people will have that benefit. So let's tell them, like, what, from your perspective, what's you've been? important about picking, like, where you want to interview for that first job and then how to get that job? Yeah, I think you have to, if you're primarily looking at sales, I think it's a good idea to find something that intersects with what your talents are. Yeah. And I'm not telling you that because I did it. I'm telling you that because I didn't do it.

I probably could have gotten more creative about, you know, where I went to work. Because I was out playing music for a while. And I got my first opportunity, my first job out of college was working for this advertising agency in Spartanburg. And the idea was I was going to write some jingles and do some print ads. And I did that. Yeah. You know, and I got to understand. I used a Mac SC30.

I learned how to use it. This is before Windows came out, right? And so I was way ahead of the game in terms of knowing how to use a graphical user interface and understanding how powerful computers were just through music. And so I think the idea is try to find something that you're uniquely interested in. And then there's got to be a sales side to that. There's a sales side to everything. And so that would be the first thing.

The second thing, I think you and I agree on this, is you've got to understand. what your conative makeup is, how you go about doing things. I mean, I spent half my life thinking that I had some sort of problem because I was a huge quick start and a resistant follow through. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It wasn't until I realized what that meant that I could just sort of relax and say,

okay, this is what I do really well. Yeah. And this is what I'm really not good at if I don't take care of it, if I don't manage. it correctly. Right. You know. So what Greg's talking about, some of you have been exposed to, but it's a test called the Colby test, K-O-L-B-E.com, and you can go take one online for 60 bucks, and we highly

recommend it. But it basically tells you, you know, what your natural skill set is when it comes to, like, the ability to do your homework or to get your homework turned in on time or to go do a speech or to go make a coal call or, you know, different. It just gives you some numbers, really, that represent what you're good at and what you're not so good at. And Greg and I are fairly similar. And we both had that feeling our whole life.

I'm like, why can't I get my turn paper turned in? Why can't I study what I'm supposed to? Why can't I get my expense report turned in? Why can I get the proposal sent to the prospect that I promised him? Right, right. I can't do that. I can call the next guy. but I couldn't do the proposal.

Right. It's just not my nature. So there's so many good things that come from taking the Colby, but one is that you forgive yourself for the things that you don't do well. And then you put some systems in place to make up for it. So tell us about some of your systems to help you, Greg. So one of the key things, I know that I'm a resistant follow-through, which means following through with all the,

100 ideas that I had the day before is going to be a challenge, right? So I try to do those types of activities in the morning when my energy is the highest, right? And so if I try to do those after 2 o'clock, I'm screwed. There's no way I don't have enough energy to really. So I try to just nip it in the butt and do them in the morning when I can easily get them done. Right. And then I focus on, you know, innovation and ideation and the things I'm really good at as the day progresses. And so that's one of the things.

The other thing is I keep a good, I use Evernote. I don't know if you use it. I'm trying to, yeah. Yeah, I use Evernote. I don't organize things naturally. So I find that being able to use a tool like that where I can literally type, I can type in the word Toyota, it'll take me to a handwritten report of an accident I was in, you know, in 2005. So I can write anything and I don't have to worry about organizing it.

I can just go find it again because it searches so quickly, right? So I use tools like that and I don't expect myself to, you know, I just don't have the expectation that I'm going to have the most immaculate filing system on the planet. I just don't have that. Right. You know, it's not going to happen for me. And then I tried to work with people that have complimentary skills. And I've had a number of people in my work background that have stepped in and they've taken it.

And I'm like, oh, perfect. See how this works? And then when you know how we work together, there's a guy named Mike Blanchett who I worked with. And it got to the point where he kind of knew I was going to have 10 ideas. and he knew that only one or two of those were going to work. And so he would just cut me off, you know, okay, that's not going to work. Yeah. Because he was thinking about operationalizing.

And he's thinking, he doesn't even think about something unless he can think about the end of it, right? Yeah. And he's just, that's not going to work. That's not going to work. And then he'll go, okay, that, we can do that. And so we just worked really well together. Yeah. Because he understood, we both understood our unique gifts and strengths in that area.

So when you know that, so first of all, Greg saying to interview correctly, figure out the companies you want to work for. That means ideally you're matching them up. They're companies that have something to do what you like where your experience is. If you're a guitar player, maybe you go to work for Gibson guitars or for guitar magazine or all these places that could use a salesperson. That's the first thing. The second is to figure out kind of what kind of salesperson you are with that Colby. and try to get those kinds of jobs. Right.

So if it was, let's just say, commission-only, cold-call job, and you've got a low quick start, probably not a good match. No, sorry. Okay? But if you're at 9 or 10, like we are, you say, well, sure, we'll go try it. You know, why not? Because that's a high reward, too, you know, if you do that. So, you know, if you have a low quick start,

you might want to get a job where you're calling on existing customers. Right. You have the relationship kind of deal. You're nurturing existing relationships. You're not having to, maybe you're not having to do as much creating those relationships, but just nurturing the ones you already have. There's all kinds of things that I didn't really take into consideration, probably because I just didn't have the knowledge.

That's me too. I mean, I remember asking people when I was a senior in college, like, how should I go about this? And they were like, we don't know. I mean, nobody knew there was no books on or anything. So anyway, that's part of what we're trying to do. but that's two things already that we didn't do that people should do. What company should I work for and what type of sales jobs should I be going for? Now, once you know those two things, now what do you do?

Right. You have to narrow that market of who are these companies, right, and start a campaign, right? That's right. And I think now it's a little bit different too because geography doesn't matter as much. You know, I knew I liked technology. my idea of going to work was actually going to work, right? Going to an office. And, you know, at the time, data stream was one of the only games in town from a technology standpoint, right?

And so I remember answering the ad and the paper. There was an ad in the paper. These people don't know what the paper is. Yeah, I had no idea what, you know, maintenance software was, no clue. I did have a sense of what, you know, manufacturing plants were. because I did some work work with David Cheneer, and so I kind of understood that. And so I was able to make that connection,

but I'll tell you, it wasn't until, you know, I realized some other things about my quick start. And for me, I had to get real focused. So finally getting out of the cube, getting an office, essentially having a desk lamp, turning all the lights off except for that desk lamp, and just sitting there essentially in the, dark, making call after call, goal was to actually have 25 conversations a day. I'd write every

single one of them. And that was the goal. I want to, I mean, sometimes 25 conversations took 75 calls, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so the idea I wanted to get to that 25 conversation point. Yeah. And that was just an indicator of, okay, I'm doing the work. Yeah. That doesn't mean that my calls were perfect, you know, because you're always working on that, right? But the discipline to sit there and go through those, that process of making the call. And then, you know, it always helped to have, you know, some healthy competition with your coworkers going on too. It does. So if we back up just for a second, we know the kind of company we want to work for, the kind of sales we want to be doing, then we amass, let's say a top 20 list, my top favorite 20 companies that are in this

space. And then how would you recommend these folks go after those 20? Yeah, I think that's your first sales job, right? Yeah, absolutely. That is your first sales job. And so the way I would think about doing that is you've got so many more resources now. You can go to their sites. You can go to social media, like LinkedIn, and find out who they're hiring, what kind of skills they want. You can usually, I would definitely recommend getting hooked up into LinkedIn as soon as you can.

You know, if you're new and your dad or mom have contacts, hook up with those contacts, those people are willing to help you. I mean, I've had a number of people come to me who, you know, are kids of friends that I have, and I'm always willing to help. You know, use my contacts. So get hooked into that and find out, try to get some back channel on what these 20 companies are doing. Even call in for just an informational interview.

Like even if they're not interviewing for a, position that you, that just fits exactly what you want. Say, I just like to talk to somebody about what you guys do, you know, how you do it. And don't even, don't even say I'm looking for a job. Because that, that creates new roles. Once you say, okay, I'm, I'm now looking for a job. You're, you're now a job prospect and they're a hiring company. But if you just get rid of that structure and just ask questions and find out information about what the company's doing, then I think, you know, this happened to my niece just recently. She just got hired in her first job.

And the reason she got hired was because she just went in and started asking questions. What do you guys do? How do you do it? And they got to know her and they liked her. And now they just hired her. I don't think she ever really, she didn't even start the interview process at the beginning. She started it, you know, through just a conversation. Yeah.

So that's kind of how I would do it. Yeah, I agree. I think I agree 100%. And I helped a few people in college. The sooner they start, the better. Because being younger than a college graduate is a huge advantage in playing that game. You say, I'm a sophomore at Furman. I'm starting to look into what it would be like to be a sales rep working for an AI software company.

I can ask you a few questions. It's different than I just graduated from Furman. Give me a job. Looking for you. Trying to get out of the basement. They're clues. There are all these clues. If you're really looking for, if you're like, oh, I'm not sure what I want to do.

Look for the clues. You leave clues along the way. Well, what have you enjoyed doing, right? What were your favorite things to do in high school and in college? And these little clues get dropped along the way. And also, the other thing is, don't, sometimes you need to not think of it in terms of, okay, I want to work for this company or this industry and I want to be in this position. And think about, okay, what are your best days look like? Like, what do you, when you really feel like you're engaged and living life to the fullest, what does that look like?

Do you wake up every day and what do you do? Do you enjoy, you know, being around people or do you enjoy more, you know, work in solitude, like a programmer or something like that? Do you, what are the subject matters that really get you going, right? There are these clues. And a lot of times it doesn't start out exactly the way you think it's going to, right? You just, you know, you have to work your way into that great position where you're doing exactly what you're doing. Yes. But at the same time, you don't want to be way over here, right?

You don't want to be doing something that's totally outside of your natural tendencies. You'll get as close as you can. You've got to get as close as you can. And I would also add, if you do have that company. that you really want to go to work for, then don't give up. Like, you could go to work for that company in a different role. You could say, I want to come in as a clerk, you know, or I want to work in marketing or anything that gets you in the door and then start talking to that sales manager. That's one way to do it.

Another way, go to work for one of the suppliers to that company. Right. There's different ways in the door. And this is just two sales guys talking. This is how salespeople think. How can we make this work for the business? for the good of everyone. Another thought I had was, and you kind of did this with your data stream pick, is if you're

still not sure, then you might want to pick a company based on a skill set that you want. Right. Right? I just want to learn sales. I want to learn project management or consulting or whatever and just do two-year, two-year, two-year, and kind of build your skill set up until you're ready to go. You'll make a bigger move. Right.

So once they get in the door, they're interviewing. for this company. What do you think their approach ought to be? You know, I think the approach that I always took was try to do as much research as you can on what this company does and then ask questions. Like the worst kind of interview that I've ever done is when the interviewee doesn't ask any questions. All I'm doing is asking them questions and they're answering. What's your level of curiosity, right?

What, what, you know, to be a really good salesperson, you need to be really curious. Yeah. I mean, really curious. Not just, here's the questions that I'm going to ask, but really, what's going on in the organization? You know, why do you think this is important? And what happened? What was the story behind? Why, why you think you need this?

And get really curious. There is so many interesting people and so many interesting stories within organization. Oh, they're all, they're just people, right? Yeah. They're just people with stories. and they're trying to do the best they can for their families and their careers. And you start asking questions. And so what happens when you do that in an interview and you show your curiosity,

the people that are interviewing you are like, you know what, this is a person that I would buy something from me, right? This is a person that I would hire. And so I think that's the approach that you really should come with, is to come in and ask serious questions because you're vetting them too. Absolutely. It's not just them asking you questions. It's you determining whether or not this is an environment and this is a culture that would be good for you.

Right. If you come in with that kind of real curiosity, then I think you'll do well. And you know what? And you're not going to get every job you interview for. No. Good. Yeah, you don't want it. You don't want.

You want to find the truth out. Because sometimes it's just not going to work. And you don't want to be in a situation where it's not going to work because that's miserable. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree. I think you should ask good questions. I would have them written down, at least the main one's written down and kind of wait for your chance to ask them.

I wouldn't come in blazing questions. But I would definitely ask them. The other thing I would have is my story. And the story should be exactly what we've been talking about, which is they say, what are you interviewing here with our company? Well, because I grew up, my grandpa taught me how to play the guitar and blah, blah, blah, you know, he has this whole story of why you're here and how you've done some work already and you know Charlie and, you know, whatever the story is, the guy's going to be like, holy cow, he's normally, he or she is normally just seeing just a name and some stuff and went to school and measured this and, you know, somebody with a good story. Yeah. It's huge. So I think those are good things they can do. And then, of course, you know, a handwritten thank you note, it's not going to get you the job, but it's not going to hurt a darn thing. I'll tell you, it's a lost art.

It is. It really is. It will set you apart. It will. I've even told people when I, you know, even in prospecting, there's all this email calling, all this, you know, a lost art, send somebody a letter. Yeah. And they'll open it up and read it. and I guarantee you the read rate on that letter is higher than the read rate on it.

If it's my email, it's not getting read. I know. I was laughing the other day with someone we're talking about the perfect morning and this guy said, honestly, I wake up, get a cup of coffee and delete a bunch of email. Like, well, that's not the most productive thing. Yeah, but that's true. I haven't thought about it in that context, but absolutely that will absolutely set you apart. You can do it in the reception area.

You can literally have it with you, write it. and give it to the receptionists, say, give this to Greg. That's great on you. And he'll be like, what? Already a thank you note? Okay, so that's, I think enough on interviewing for now. I think it'd be great. Except for one more thing.

Have you seen any places where interviewees have really screwed up during interview, things they've done that people should be on look out for? I think talking too much is, you need to answer the questions, but you don't need to over-talk in terms of your qualifications because everybody knows you don't have any. When you're a new, right? Everybody knows you don't know how to do anything. So I think that's one thing.

I think what you said about coming in with your own story, your own point of view on why you're there is huge. If you just come in and you're just going through the motions, people are going to realize that. I've never seen anybody just totally, you know, just bomb in an interview. Like, I don't want them to.

I want them to do well. Yeah. And the other thing is just know that sometimes it's not going to work. Yeah. Right. It would be a injustice. I've never seen anything to.

Well, late, obviously. Late to interview this. Late with a biscuit. Yeah. There's a whole podcast. You did a little podcast. I did. I did.

I remember that. I mean, literally remember. that. That day. That day. I remember that. Well, let's talk about you also, we've covered a little bit your music that you majored in jazz studies and got a graduate degree in music and still play music all the time now. You've got, what, two bands out in California you play with? The Four Corners is one. Four Corners is a band and the lead singer guitar player comes in from Boston every three

months or so. And we play. We used to play a lot together. I met him at Wonderware. We called it four corners because the bass player was from Alaska. The drummer was from San Clemente, California. Singers from Boston, and I was from South Carolina. So, you know, four corners, right? And then, and then I play with, you know, Greg Gardner and the whatever I decided to call him that week. and that's classic rock or sometimes we have a little jazz trio that we do. So it's

you took up the bass also. I took up the bass. I started playing the bass 10 years ago and I'm a competent bass player now. I'm not a great bass player but learning another instrument makes you fall in love with music in a different way.

It's a different approach. I remember when I started I would carry it like probably like you I'd carry it everywhere on planes, you know. Yeah. And I started my first song I learned was the baseline to what's going on, which is probably one of the greatest bass lines ever recorded. James Jamerson, I think, was the bass player on that song.

But then so I do that, play bass in certain bands as well. So then my son is now playing the drums with me in bands now. He's 17. Ben. Yeah. He's a great. He's a great drummer. It's funny, he plays in my jazz trio every now and then,

and my bass player is 67, he's 17, and I was really worried about how that was going to work. Just click like that. It's unbelievable. It's like people understand each other in such different ways on the bandstand, you know. Well, I think most people would love to be able to play an instrument and play in a jazz trio.

I mean, certainly I did, and I do some of that now, not to your level, but I love it. How has it helped you in business to be playing music like you do? Business is very creative, if you think about it. It's a set of circumstances. You know, it's corporations, people, dynamics that are always changing, right? And music is very similar to that, right? There's a whole bunch of possibilities that you can play, just limitless possibilities.

And when you're playing with people, then you get input from those people. And then you're reacting to that input. It's very similar to like, you know, when you're in a sales campaign and you're trying to figure out how to get this organization. Because, you know, six people are responsible for buying your product now, right? And it's not just one person. So you're trying to figure out all those dynamics at the same time and trying to place your product into, their organization and get them to give you their currency for that value, right? You know, something similar goes on when you're playing music with a group of people,

whereas you're trying to transfer this emotion to the audience through, you know, the sounds and the emotions of the musicians on stage, right? So it's just very, it's a very dynamic, creative endeavor. If you let it, it can be very mundane and sort of if you can make it, you know, you can do it very rote and you'll get bored with it. But if you remember that these are just people that make decisions in their own best interests most of the time and they're dynamic and interesting, then you can have a lot of fun with it. Yeah. You know, and so that's why, that's what I think, you know, music's very similar in terms of, you know, being on a team with people and trying to. So those are actual things that have been helpful for you, but do you think it's ever helped you, like, get a promotion or get a job other than with me where it's just Greg, Greg's cool guy, he plays music, we want him on the team.

Do you think it's been helpful or neutral? Yeah, because here's, this is a weird thing that happens. Like, let's say, you know, I'm. I'm at the director level of an organization, which I am in. Let's say the CEO or board members, right? The minute that that board member and I get together in a musical environment, the entire relationship changes. Totally changes.

Because now we're equal. You're actually maybe a little. But, you know, it's just a different, you see that person in a totally different light. Right. have a different relationship with that person because now you're in this environment where you're creating music together. And that's happened to me so many times. And it hasn't helped me.

Help me get my job with Datastream. Sure did. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. So, so, and I think, I think that's an interesting point because I used to be very, um, weird about like sharing my musical talent in a business context. Like I, I wanted those things separated, you know?

Yeah. Like, I'm business person. The truth of the matter is, I'm not just a business. I'm not just a business person. I do that, but I'm also this. And I encourage people that are also whatever. Like, they could be also an athlete. They could be also, you know, really, really great at, you know, data science.

Or they could be, you know, they should bring all that to the table. Right. Right. They should bring all of it to the table because the truth of the matter is, even if you try not to bring it to the table, you're bringing it to the table. Yeah. Yeah, I think of it as a skill stack. You know, you have multiple skills,

and they intersect, you know, to get different things done. So I think it's a good thing. But I do remember when we had a band a long time ago, it was called a Sterling trio or something, and we had to change the name so our boss wouldn't know what we were doing because, you know,

we're supposed to be working all the time, so we changed it to Sweet Pea. So we get up, maybe we should bring Sweet Pea back today. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I think I think that's really a good point that Noob should remember is you can try all day long to not bring your whole self to your job, but you're bringing your whole self to your job. And I think in your book you talk about, you know, you need to get your personal life in order. You need to get all these other things in order because you're bringing it.

Yeah. No matter what. Right. So. You can't fake it, particularly if you're like not living a healthy life. and I'm not saying, you know, Ironman healthy, but just pretty healthy life. If you're not doing that, whatever you're doing won't last. It won't.

It won't last. So on that same vein, you're so healthy now. I know you're doing stand-up paddleboarding and you're doing adventure runs. Let's just talk about health and nutrition and the kind of things you're eating and drinking and to stay so healthy. as hard as you work on business too. Yeah, so for me, I always tell people, I don't know if you can put this in, it's either intense, intense workouts

or it's antidepressants. I mean, for me, the endorphins and just the release of anxiety and tension just happens when I, when I'm working, on when I'm working out or something like that. So, but I always like to have goals and races that I'm running or, or, or, or, our paddleboard racing or Spartan racing or something out there to train for because I think it's just a metaphor for everything sort of a metaphor.

Like, you know, when you're doing a Spartan race and you literally, you're running up, you know, the slope at Lake Tahoe and, and, and you're on your 14th mile. and you're like, I don't know how I'm going to make it. You know, that's the same thing that happens when you're in the middle of a negotiation with a partner or a prospect, and you're like, I don't know if I can do this, right? So it's sort of, it's just sort of living out loud this process of overcoming obstacles, either figuratively or actually literally in a race like that. or you want to challenge yourself in a paddleboard race or you want to just do your best run in your 50s in the Cooper River Bridge run. You know, there's always needs to be something out there that you're, for me, I need that to keep going. And I just, you know, for me, that kind of training and rigor kind of helps quell stress and it just gets good endorphins going.

And so that's a non-negotiable for me. Yeah. That's the one thing I'm not getting rid of. Practicing music every day is one thing I'm not getting rid of, you know. And so, yeah, it works out for me. That's awesome. That's good. It makes you a better business person for sure.

Two more questions. Just give us a quick rundown. You've had so much experience managing partner networks. This is where, you know, other companies will be. reselling or selling your product and, you know, not just in the U.S., in Japan and other places. What's your kind of top message for how to run a good partner network? Yeah, so partnering is interesting because you have a tendency in direct selling to sell and then move on to the next thing, right? Yeah.

You can't really do that with partnering. You know, you sell through a partner or you sell. sell with the influence of a partner. And then you've got to do it again. So you need to nurture these relationships over time, over a longer period of time. So I think that's a key difference in direct selling versus partner selling. The other thing is selling through somebody else kind of is more complex in the sense that you have to sell them on selling your stuff because you're not the only partner

they have. Yeah. Right. Right. So being able to differentiate your product while you know that the other products that are competitors to yours are in the toolbox. You know, that's a different type of a selling motion. So I think the key thing is to be upfront and transparent about situations where, you know,

we don't know how this is going to end. Yeah. You know, for instance, my partners all have, they're also partners with my competitors. I'm also partners with their competitors, right? Wow. So being able to put issues out there early so that each side knows exactly what's going on is a key thing. And it's not an easy thing. Because the last thing you want to do is slow momentum down.

The problem is if you get too far down the road and you didn't say or you didn't tell them what was going on or they didn't tell you. And that creates a mistrust that that lasts through three or four more cycles, right? So you really have to think, it's like, it's a little bit about thinking ahead, thinking like four or five moves ahead. Okay. And it's also just basic relationship building and trust building as well. So that's the key to me is to make sure that you're nurturing a long-term relationship. Okay. All right. Well, let's has been delightful. One more question. What's your favorite word, Greg? I was thinking about that. I think I would have to say my favorite word would have to be creative. Nice. It would have to be

because I'm always looking for different ways to solve problems. I did it at data stream. and it's always a little bit outside of, you know, what we've always done. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What we've always done is good. Yeah. But what we're going to do and what we could do is probably going to be better, right?

And so if I can find that creative way to do something a little bit better, then that's where I'm headed. Well, that's a great word for you. And again, just to give you full credit and explain to the Noob School. You know, Greg, at a very young age, maybe we're up for a year or two, had an idea about how to bundle some of our products together and effectively double our average selling price. So, I mean, we were selling the same number of units for twice the price, and our sales went up obviously really quickly. So we call that the Gardner Bundle. Gardner Bundle. The Gardner Bundle.

So thanks for that. You're welcome. Appreciate it. Thanks for being here today. That's been great. It came a long way. Yeah, absolutely. Really looking forward to doing it and glad we did it.

Got a chance to do it. Appreciate it, man. Thanks, Greg. Thank you.