Normal Gossip - All Dogs Go To Therapy with Carvell Wallace

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

Carvell Wallace joins us for a tale of neighborly revenge involving fences, motion sensor lights, and a certain infamous app. Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets!You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/Episode transcript here.Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP.Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira). Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs) is our Supervising Producer. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby.Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Support Radiotopia's fall fundraiser here. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Hey, it's Alex Sujong Loughlin and I am here with the Rachel Hampton of Normal Gossip. Hello. Hello, Alice. And I'm also here with Patrick Redford of Only If You Get Caught. Hi, Patty. Howdy? How are we doing? So we're all here together because the annual Radiotopia fundraiser is upon us and we are still trying to reach 1,500 donors by the end of the year. So Radiotopia is the network that sells our ads, that does our marketing. Rachel, what does it mean to you to be a part of an independent network? I mean, I think it means mostly and most importantly to me a lot of editorial freedom. I love that I'm not beholden to anyone when we're scheduling how many seasons we do every year or how many episodes we want to make. We get to make the show that is the most sustainable for us and that allows us to make the best version of the show possible. Huge. I totally agree. I think that something that I have really appreciated about Radiotopia is that they give us total control over what advertisers we say yes and no to. So like in the past, we've had advertisers that we've worked with who then maybe we hear from our audience that, you know, they're not so into them. And we can go back to Radiotopia and say, hey, we don't want to do that anymore. And I think not a lot of podcasts have that kind of autonomy over who. is advertising for them, which is really cool. Definitely. And it means that the things that we do advertise, we actually tend to enjoy. Shocker. Patrick, tell me what does being independent mean to

you? Well, this is maybe a sort of oblique answer, but like in sports media specifically over the past few years, everyone is like underwritten by a gambling company. And you can just see when there's these big stories, you know, cheating adjacent about gambling in sports that like so much of media is like compromised. And it's such a breath of fresh air to like not have to deal with that to just know that like whatever we put out there is like our own thoughts. There's no like intervening layer of owners or advertisers. And hopefully that comes through to the viewer. Like hopefully you see that like, you know, there's a certain level of honesty that we can bring to this. So if you love this show and you want shows like ours to exist and thrive, help our podcast

neighbors at Radiotopia by donating at Radiotopia.fm slash donate. Thank you so much. free audio post-production biofonic.com Hello and welcome to normal gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world.

Welcome to episode four, y'all. We are somehow already almost halfway through season nine. I know. I can hear y'all scream. screaming no from thousands of miles away. But what that means is that we are already thinking about season 10, which will air sometime in the first half of 2026. 10 seasons of normal gossip, can you believe it? Internally, we've been calling next season All-Stars, which means we're looking to get the absolute best of the best in terms of both gossip and guests. So if you've been holding out

on submitting a story, please send it to us at normalgossip at defector.com. And if you've got some absolute dream guest that you want to appear on the show. Tell us, but also please start making noise in their various comment sections. Like, we have gotten so many requests for Caleb Harron, who I agree would be an iconic guest. And we have reached out. So I think the next step is y'all spamming him until he says yes. Respectfully, of course, we are not doing harassment campaigns around here. Just say normal gossip tonight, King, please. Thank you. One last piece of housekeeping, this is the first episode of December, which means that for the rest of the month, I'm going to be reminding y'all that the normal gossip team has got a little break coming up. We won't be publishing during the weeks of Christmas and New Year, but have no fear.

We'll be back in your fees with fresh gossip within the first full week of 2026. So our last episode for this year, not this season, but this year, is on December 17th. And then we come back on January 7th. Okay, that is everything for today. Now time for the gossip. Y'all, one of the absolute best parts of this job is getting to chop it up with people whose work I've respected from afar for years, which is why today's episode holds a special place in my heart.

Our guest today is Carvel Wallace, a New York Times bestselling author and a host of Slate's How To podcast. His work has appeared in The New Yorker, GQ, the New York Times Magazine, pitchfork, and so many other places. Like, he has profiled everyone from Michael B. Jordan to to Samuel L. Jackson, to Viola Davis, to Mahershala Ali, and the thing is, I could keep going. Carvel is an icon. So thank you, Carvel, for joining me. Hello. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited. I'm so excited, both for this story. And to be reunited to talk about gossip, you had me on your show how to, a few months ago, to teach people how to gossip. And that was such a fun conversation. But I feel like, like, we didn't actually get into your relationship with gossip during that recording.

So the microphone's on you now. What is your relationship to gossip? I love gossip. Like, I mean, as much as anyone. Like, I love gossip. And we talked about this on how to, but, like, I think of gossip as being an important part of people keeping each other safe. I'm thinking of this one time where another content person had called me up and was like,

yo, this person has reached out to me to find out if they want to work with me. but I want to know your thoughts like you have rocked with this person or at least been in the same spaces with them what is the real and I like let him know all that they're like first they did this then they were on some bullshit about this just so they know I'm just like you can do it

but going with eyes wide open know what this person is about you know what I'm saying so to me that's like the important helpful kind of gossip but I also just like hearing juicy tidbits about other people's fucking shortcomings because I think probably you know I like it for like

not honorable reasons I like it because I'm like, oh, my God, that person is so messy. I would never do that. Ugh. But, so it makes me feel better about myself. But I also know that I have been on the receiving end of gossip and, like, stories about me exist that aren't accurate. As the game of telephone has gone on, they become more whatever.

So, like, charge it to the game. It's like, you know, if you live by the gossip, you die by the gossip. Let it be what it is. That is a beautiful phrase. I would be stealing. If you live by the gossip, you die by the gossip. I really love how honest and transparent you're being because I feel like sometimes people come on this show and they're like, well, gossip has this like historical relevance to marginalized

communities, which is very true to be clear. But it makes me feel bad about myself because that is not the primary reason that I am a gossip. No, I feel the same. Like, I really can't imagine anyone who doesn't like gossip. Anybody who says that I think they might be just like virtue signaling a little bit. Like, you know, I can recognize that it's not ideal. I can recognize that too much gossip, like living too much in other people's stories,

living too much in that idea of like me feeling like I'm better than other people. I can see how taken to an extreme that doesn't serve me. But I'm going to engage a little bit at least. Like, we got to get through the day. Like, what are we doing? Exactly. So tell me about the messy shit that went on. Oh, yes, yes. Okay, I could talk about this forever with you, but a little birdie told me that you have some gossip to tell me.

Oh, my God. So I went to high school in L.A. I went to an arts high school. I was in a theater program. And so living in L.A. in high school and being in like around the industry and then later going back in my 30s and being in that scene, I like encountered a lot of like weird celebrity stuff. And so this story, my friend's boyfriend told me this story. And they're no longer together, which is why I can't go back and confirm certain details because I sort of lost him in the friend breakout. But he told me that when he was in L.A. in his 20s and he was like a young actor about town, he was into some freaky stuff. Like he would meet up with people and have these events and these affairs and stuff like that. And so he was on this like website for people who want to do some like group like play stuff. And he this couple and they seemed really hot and they DMed a couple of times and they decide to like meet up so you know they're looking for a third so he goes to meet with the couple it's a man a woman and they're kind of like from a like a small town and they both moved to L.A. together and the man's career sort of took off so he goes to meet this couple and they have a whole interaction and everyone has a great time joy is had by all etc and to memorialize it they take photos videos

pictures so people can enjoy, you know, the memories, so to speak. I'm trying to be delicate about how I talk about it. And they had a great time. The guy was into it. The other guy was into it. The wife was into it. Everyone's lovely. So my friend goes his separate ways and is like, that was a great evening. So a couple days later, the guy reaches out to him and is like, hey, I had a great time. And he's like, yeah, me too. He's like, hey, do you want to come like, do it again? Like, maybe come meet me like at my office. And so my friend is like, yeah, like, That was cool. Like, I was into our energy, too, even within this threesome. So he goes to meet the guy at his office. And he tells me that the guy was like a memorabilia collector. And so he had all this old Hollywood memorabilia. So they end up doing these sex acts in front of like whatever like Humphrey Bogart's hat from the like, like, like this totally like surreal experience. So he does, you know, him and this guy get into it. They're doing it. They're having a good time. And then at the. At the end, after it's over there sitting and chatting in the afterglow.

And the actor, he's like, listen, by the way, just don't tell my wife about this. And my friend's like, wait, what do you mean? He's like, well, she doesn't really want me to like play it on the side, you know, so she's like not into that. And my friend is like, bro, what the fuck? Like, why would you invite me over under these circumstances and not tell me, like, what? Like, I'm now complicit in your bullshit. Like, you know, and also why would you do this to your wife? She's hell of cool.

Like, she's clearly into, like, all this type of stuff. She's down to clown. She just has one little rule. And you need to break that role. Like, you kind of suck. So my friend is starting to feel weird. And then here he is looking at, like, whatever, like this. Yeah, like, the mask from, like, some 1930s horror movie.

And so he's like, yeah, he starts to feel a little ill at ease. So I got to go, man, I'm leaving. So the friend, they get dressed, the friend's walking him out down in the hallway of his office. And then he notices that, like, there's all these, like, there's all these, like photographs of political figures, like Richard Nixon, all these conservative figures. And so my friend is like, wait a second. Are you like a conservative? He's like, oh, yeah, I'm like a, I'm like a Republican. I'm a conservative. Like, I believe in conservative values. I believe in the church. And my friend is like, what the fuck? Like in his mind. So he leaves. He's

driving home down the freeway and he's turning this over. And he's like, this guy sucks. Like he cheats on his wife. He's clearly a hypocrite. Like blah, blah. You know, and so like he's kind of perseveres on what to do about this. for a while. And then he remembers that he has these photographs and these videos. And he has a friend who works at like a gossip magazine. And he's thinking about turning this stuff over. And he told me this story as it was happening. And I don't know if he ever turned it over or not. But I know that he was really thinking about it. Like just being like, I'm going to out this guy. Like, I'm going to, you know, blow this guy up. Like, I was waiting every day for it to be a scandal so I could

be like ha ha ha that son of a bitch but um it never happened but there's also the possibility that it didn't happen because the guy was like even though it was like a working actor who made enough money to have a nice house where he did he also like was not that big of a deal so could just be it that they got the pictures and we're like yeah we don't care we don't care that this like delister they're like call us back when you have brad pit photos exactly but i think about that story all the time i can't figure out if i'm more weirded out by his need to break the boundary. Yes. That was also what I was focusing on.

It's so illustrative of someone's personality when they have all this freedom and they choose to break the one rule that someone has, not because they feel like the rule is unfair. It doesn't even feel like it's the fairness thing. It's just because they want to test someone's boundary. And it's like, why do you feel the need to trespass on other people's boundaries when you have all this open space to do what you want? That's what I'm saying. so weird. And like, if that is a deal breaker for you, if you're like, listen, I've got to be

able to get my little thing on the side, then you need to have that conversation. And like, if your partner is like, no, that's a deal breaker for me, then you've got to just be like, well, I think the deal is broken. Like, you've got to decide if you want this thing or if you want that thing. Wow. Carvel, I'm going to be thinking about that gossip forever. And if in five years, this person ends up on the front page of New York Post, please, please. email me I would love that That would be so good

The way I'm going to be asking for this actor's name after this recording But I have a story for you now Oh yes Are you ready?

I'm ready When winter really sets in here at home I start dreaming of a warm winter getaway And this season I'm looking at visiting Riviera Maya and Mexico there's truly nothing like stepping off a plane from negative 10 degrees Celsius weather and feeling that instant hit of tropical air.

So this winter, I plan to find a beautiful home on Airbnb right near the beach in Touloum. And here are some of my dream accommodations, maybe a plunge pool, some bright open windows, maybe a little hammock to lounge in. I can look for my ideal spot by using the guest favorites feature, which will show me the most love homes on Airbnb. And my ideal day on this winter getaway starts kind of slow with a morning walk down to the water, with a coffee, and in the afternoon, it's time to explore sonotes and grab some tacos for lunch. At night, we would head home and relax and cook simple dinners, maybe have a little drink out on the patio. And for me, staying in a home on Airbnb instead of a hotel makes a trip just feel slower and more personal, like we're actually living there for a little while.

It's exactly the kind of break we need from winter. It's warm, it's restorative, and a reminder that sometimes the best way to enjoy the cold is to get far, far away from it. Today's story takes place in a quiet little neighborhood in Silver Springs, Maryland. It is the 2010s. And at this point in time, the residents of this neighborhood are pretty evenly split between like old timers who bought their houses cheap in the 70s and 80s and new young families who are looking for like home equity and good schools. My brother lives in Silver Spring. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I know this scene. Incredible. Well, one important thing to know about this neighborhood is that the houses are really close together. Like, there may be about

10 feet apart, so everyone kind of knows each other. Personally, I feel like there's a really delicate balancing act of how close you want to get to someone that you can't help running into, but I wanted to ask, are you someone who tries to get to know their neighbors? And how do you go about that? No, I am not someone to trust it. You said no. No, that's end of story. No, I don't avoid, I try to have kind, caring, working, loving relationships with my neighbors. Like, If the shit goes down, we have each other's back. That's the level I want to be at with my neighbors. But is it like a sitcom where we're bursting into each other's houses and stuff and

like involved in the same dramas? No, that's not. We're not doing that. It's not giving Steve Urkel and the Winslow. It's not giving Steve. It's not giving Erkel coming over. It's not giving Kramer bursting down the door. No, it's not.

I don't do that. But I do like my neighbors. I have really great neighbors now. They seem really cool. But, you know, we see each other to see each other. we tell each other when it's street sweeping, whatever. It's like that level of stuff. That's, I feel like a really good level to be at.

Our friend of our friend today feels a little bit differently than I think either one of us do. Her name is Gabby, and Gabby, along with her partner, Mason, are new residents of this neighborhood. Gabby and Mason are both in their mid-30s. They moved from Chicago because Gabby had gotten a job at the government accountability office, and she had always dreamed of working in our nation's capital. No comment. This is the Obama era. Hope, optimism, change, long, moral arc of the universe bending towards progress.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were off of different shit then. I get it. I get it. Gabby is excited about working in D.C. But she and Mason had also really loved their life in Chicago, their apartment building. Everyone knew them.

Like they had thrown them a surprise party to leave, like a surprise going away party. So Gabby and Mason are like, we know we won't be able to immediately replicate this dynamic when we move to our new neighborhood, but they have high hopes. It helps that their move goes really smoothly. All their stuff from Chicago arrives quickly and not broken, which I think is very rare for interstate moves. So they're settling in, they're unpacking, they're starting to scope out their neighbors, and it's only a couple days after they move that they are introduced to their most important neighbor, Ollie. Ollie is a dog and the best way to describe Ollie is

have you ever seen a dog that just looks expensive? Yes. How would you describe an expensive looking dog? They're judging you. You're like, you're a dog, but you seem like you think you're better than I am.

Like you, you know what I mean? Like you're asking me if I belong in this neighborhood. Like, why? I'm saying? Like, I have two legs, bro. Like, I have opposable thumbs. Like, get a grip. You don't, yeah.

You pay taxes. Like, why are you looking at me like that? Yeah, I know exactly what it is. Yeah, so this is the kind of dog, Ollie is. Ollie belongs to Gabby and Mason's next door neighbors. And Ollie is a Tibetan Mastiff. Oh, huge, right? Exactly.

Huge dog. Very expensive dog as well. Apparently in 2011, a purebred Tibetan Mastiff was sold for 1.5. million dollars. Oh my God. People are starving, but that's fine. Like get yourself a $1.5 million dog. Be my guess. Don't feed anybody. No. Don't feed any children. Not at all. Get a dog. Get a dog. Exactly. Ali did not cost that much, thankfully. But even on the cheaper end, to bed and mast of puppies can run you upwards of $2,000 and I'm starting on the low end. And that is just the beginning. They've got a double coat so they have to be groomed regularly. And traditionally,

they're working dogs, which means that if you don't train them really well, aka spend more money on them, they can be really, really destructive. Yeah, right. Let's just say it's clear that Gabby Mason's neighbor spent more money on the little outfits that Ollie wears than they spent on his training. Okay, all right. I see where this is going. And listen, the outfits, they're really fucking cute.

He's got a coat. He's got boots for when it rains. All of his clothes are monogrammed with his name. It's so cute. What's less cute is when he breaks into Gabby and Mason's backyard to roll around in their trash. Or the fact that to bed and mastives are known to be a vocal breed of dog, especially at night. Oh, no. And Ollie's got lungs like Mariah Carey.

I just imagine Ollie just hitting like whistle notes doing hella runs to be like, Who? Exactly, exactly. You ate that, like, L'I. So he's just, he's always barking. Mailman, barking. Squirrel, barking. A particularly large leaf blowing in the wind, barking.

So you're new to the neighborhood. How do you handle your neighbors very large but poorly trained dog? That's a shit. All that money. No home training. Yes. Exactly. Can't buy class.

I mean, this is one of those questions where you have to understand the limits of your power. Yeah. I'm not a dog trainer, so I don't know how to make the dog stop being that way. Yeah. So it's not within my power to do that. I'm definitely going to talk to my neighbors about it. Like, definitely. Yeah. They should know that this is a problem.

This is an untenable situation. Part of the problem also is that Ollie is such a sweet dog. Like, they don't want to call animal control on him because he's so cute and he's also really, really good with kids. Like, Gabby and Mason sometimes see the little kids in the neighborhood riding around on his massive back. Aw.

Exactly. No, I didn't need that piece of information. Now I'm on Ollie side. I'm like, get these people out of your way, Ollie. Sing! Sing, Ali. So our friend of our friends just got here. They don't want to make a fuss.

And they also very quickly figure out that Ali's owners are older. Like, they're in their 60s or 70s. So Gabby and Mason are just like, Ali is probably just too big for them to handle. Like, Tibetan masters can weigh up to 150 pounds. Yikes. Yeah. So the immediate term thing that Gabby and Mason decide to do is get a lock for their trash

cam. Uh-huh. Sure. Uh-huh. And they're also like, we have bigger fish to fry because about a month after they move in, their neighborhood throws a block party. And it's like a proper big block party. Apparently this neighborhood has this party every summer. So they've got like the city permit process down.

The streets are blocked off so the kids can play and ride their bikes. There's a bouncy house. Everyone's grilling. Including the couple on the other side of Ollie and his owners who are named Alice and Brian. Ooh, a new bombshell Has entered the villa Exactly So just to be clear on the layout

It's our friends Gabby and Mason in one house Then Allian is owners in the middle And then Alice and Brian So if Gabby and Mason Had a power ranking For potential new neighborhood best friends Which they don't

Because that would be weird They wouldn't do that But should a hypothetical power ranking exists like that Alice and Brian would be at the top of the list. Alice and Brian are both in their 50s.

They're both surgeons. Their last kid had just graduated college. So Alice and Brian have a little, a lot of disposable income right now, which they are using to remodel their house. And if Gabby had not guessed from their jobs that Alice and Brian had

money, she would have been able to guess after seeing the renovation. The wait room has just been finished, and it's got a debt lift platform, and a squat rack. Okay. All right. Gabby's pretty sure she saw the construction crew break ground on one look like a sauna in the backyard.

You can maybe understand why Alice and Brian are at the top of the power ranking now. I'm trying to be friends with these people. Well, it's a block party. Your rich neighbors that you desperately want to be friends with are grilling in their front yard. What's your strategy? The thing that just popped in my head

when you mentioned the other neighbors is, I don't know why I didn't think of this. The other thing I would do with the Ollie's situation is I would talk to other neighbors because strength and numbers. Like, I'm not, I can't deal with this alone. I'm going to go to them and be like, hey, is this a thing for you guys? Like, what do you think we should do? Like, because, like, me going up to this couple and trying to fix things is different

than the whole neighborhood sitting down and having something of an intervention. Yeah. Like the intervention strategy. So this is two birds, one stone for sure, in my opinion. Like, you go over. I saunter over. What do you grill it? Hey, I brought some salmon.

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's dough. Let's chop. it up like you know what I mean yeah you and Gabby and Mason are on the same page Gabby and Mason decides to go the direct route go bigger go home right so within an hour of Brian lighting this grill Gabby and Mason exit their house with two six packs of a craft logger from a beloved local brewery that they just happen to have on hand just happened and Gabby's famous red velvet cheesecake brownies that she just happened to be making

that weekend oh what a coincidence what a coincidence these two they are in it to win it and Alice and Brian are more than happy to be won over. When Gabby starts talking about how good the house looks with the renovation, Alice immediately invites her inside to tour the house. The kitchen that Alice shows her, that's a goddamn masterpiece. It's got an eight-burner gas range. Two ovens. You can't even see the fridge because it's panelled to look like the cabinets.

Gabby is, like, drooling right now. She's like, Alice, you have such great taste. Yeah. Alice is delighted, as we all are when complimented. She's like, we'll have to have you both over for dinner sometime. And then she's like, I hope the construction hasn't been too disrupted for you, too. We'll be done after the sauna's installed. Thank God. The opening. The door is open now. Exactly. Gabby is like, no, it's been totally fine, which she would have said even if Alice had not just confirmed that there is indeed.

day sauna being in thong. Gabby had actually barely noticed the construction, like the crew arrives when she and Mason are leaving for work and they're gone by the time they get back, which is what Gabby tells Alice, who looks relieved. Alice is like, the renovation has taken so much longer than we thought it would. Thankfully, though, most of the neighbors have been understanding. Ooh. I like where this is going. yeah how should gabby play this most of the neighbors have been understanding my i mean i'm an interviewer by trade i'm going to ask a follow-up question right there the door has been left open i generally believe that when people say sentences like that they're saying it because

they want you to inquire a little more deeply right otherwise they'd be like it's fine everyone's great that's a door closed but most of the neighbors have been found is a door left slightly ajar. You're welcome to peek in if you'd like. So at this point, I see the two agendas aligning. And I go, really? Like, who out?

Like, who hasn't been? I mean, you know what I mean? Like, let's talk more about that, you know? And then I'm praying to God that it's going to be all these people who have a problem. I'm praying. And if it is, jackpot.

We truly approach the gossiping form so similarly yes and so does Gabby because Gabby once again decides to go the direct route she's like most that is enough for Alice to start talking

in fact Alice pours Gabby a glass of wine hmm girl Before asking, do you know the Smiths? Gabby's like, the band? And now it's like, no. Morrissey and then? I mean, a little in high school, I guess. No, exactly.

I was like, no, that's cute. I'm talking about the couple that owns Ollie. And at this, Gabby is immediately like, yes, we live on the other side of them. I didn't know their names, but yes, I know them. Up until this point, Gabby has been under the impression that the reason Ollie acts like that is because the Smiths are just somewhat negligent dog owners. She learns from Alice that that is not the case. In fact, it is the exact opposite.

Apparently, Ollie is too special to be taken to a trainer who would just force him to conform to whatever made-up standards they designed. for lesser dog breeds. Okay. Instead, Ollie sees a therapist. Okay. Which is how the Smiths know

that Ollie has anxiety. Specifically, noise anxiety. That's why he barks so much. Ollie's anxiety is triggered by noises such as thunder, woodpeckers, children playing basketball in the street,

fireworks, sirens, and construction. And construction. How would you expect people like the Smiths to react to their neighbors and barking on a month-long renovation project? Okay. I'm putting on, I'm in the Smith's hat now. I'm probably feeling triggered by the fact that these people are triggering my dog's anxiety. Yeah. Assuming I'm this kind of person. I'm leaning back in a chair with my arms cross going, if you want my dog to be quiet, maybe your construction can wrap up. That's me.

You said mutually assured destruction or nothing else. Mutually assured destruction. Looks like we have ourselves a little standoff. I love that you're playing both sides. Oh, yeah. I have to. I'm a Libra. So it's, you know what I'm saying?

Okay. You know what I'm saying? So I'm going to move from side to side. I'm trying to understand everybody's point of view. You're like, let me see, let me see where these Smiths are at. Let me see where the world looks like from their point of view. That also explains why you're so good at gossiping. Okay.

Yeah, Alice and Brian have been neighbors with the Smiths for over two decades at this point, which is more than long enough to guess that the Smiths and Ollie were going to be a problem. So before they'd even started on their remodel, Alice and Brian made sure to alert all their neighbors about the construction crew who would be working between the hours of 8 a.m. and 3 p.m. The remodel was scheduled to last only a couple months, as long as everything stayed on schedule, which... which renovations are famously known to do.

And Allison Bryan had thrown in a little special deal just for the Smiths and Ollie, who Alice and Brian recognized would be uniquely impacted by their remodel. So to make the renovation easier for Ollie to bear, Alice and Brian offered to flip the bill for Ollie to go to doggy daycare for the duration of the remodel. Look at that. Wow. That is a generous offer. I also think that's very generous.

Honestly, overly generous, if you ask me, but I don't have remodel money, so I don't really know what this tax bracket is up to. This turns out not to matter because apparently Ollie doesn't just have noise anxiety. He also has separation anxiety. And the Smith said, Ollie is an older dog. These are his golden years. They should be spent in the comfort of his home, not at some dingy doggy daycare. Okay. Now, please get a grip.

Like, can we be serious for one second here, folks? But don't worry. The Smith have a solution. Okay. If Alice and Brian postponed their remodel by a year, that would give the Smith enough time to work with Ollie's therapist and his vet to prepare him for such a stress-inducing situation as this remodel. Alice and Brian had been waiting since their kids were in middle school

to do this renovation, so they're like, sorry. Yeah, that's not, yeah, that's a no-go. Exactly. You can just take that. They said it's a no for me, dog. But we promise it's only going to take a few months. And they say, should the Smiths change their mind, the offer to send Ollie to Doggy Daycare stands?

Take it up whenever you want. From there, it was basically open warfare. The Smith had demanded that Alice and Brian replaced the fence between them with a taller one before construction started, which fine, whatever, that was probably best for everyone involved, but then the Smith start harassing Alice and Brian

and the construction crew about anything and everything. Like, if the crew even arrives, not starts working, but arrives in the neighborhood before it on the dot, Mr. Smith is banging on Alice and Brian's door. Come on.

At one point, the Smith had even tried to get one of the trucks of the construction crew towed. It's a petty off now. But it is the most recent development that has really threatened to drive Alice insane. Alice is like, let me tell you about the lights. You know those pop culture scandals. You still can't stop thinking about. Yeah, us too. So we made a podcast about all the ones we can't forget. I'm Saddam and I'm Sarah. We're journalists and

self-identified historians of celebrity gossip. On our podcast, The Reheat, we dived into the biggest celebrity scandals of the past and re-examine them with fresh eyes and a whole lot less shame. I never thought I would be a Samantha, but I really, really connect with her now. And I have learned to empathize with Marvel executives at this point, having done this much research. And I believe that... It's like pop culture therapy with your smartest, funniest friends. What do you wear for that important historic moment? What do you wear for that moment? You love that. See, now what you're doing is dangerous.

You're making me like Kate Middleton, and I never thought that I would get there. I do, like the two of you could hang out and have fun. We probably could have a very good time. A very good time. Listen to the reheat wherever you get your podcasts. Gabby's like, wait, you mean the motion sensor? lights, because everyone in the neighborhood knows about these lights on the Smith's house.

They are bright as hell, like, as bright as the headlights on new cars. And they're motion activated. So they're not even on consistently. They just go on and off all night. Yeah, like any chipmunk. Exactly. Search lights. Exactly.

The Smith had had them installed just before Gabby and Mason had moved in. In fact, the lights had been installed just a couple days after Alice and Brian had to tell the Smith that they're construction crew was a few weeks behind schedule. Ooh. Does this seem like a coincidence to you? No, no. No, we know who the villain is here. We know what the villains are.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like a coincidence to Alice or Brian either, even though the Smith had apparently insisted that the lights had nothing to do with them. The lights were for Ollie. He developed the fear of the dark. And the motion sensor lights were from when he let himself out at night, so he wouldn't be scared. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This explanation is not persuasive to Alice and Brian, especially because the motion sensor lights

are only on one side of the Smith's house. Exactly. The side they share with Alice and Brian. Gabby is reeling from this lore drop. She is like, I cannot wait to tell Mason about this. She's feeling really proud of herself. Her and Mason's hypothetical power ranking that definitely does not exist was right on the money. Alice and Brian not only have a sauna,

they've got gossip. Like, what's better than this? They pick the best friends to have in the neighborhood. After the block party is over, Gabby and Mason are back in their house, approving their day. Gabby is telling Mason about the Smiths and Ollie's therapy,

and Mason is immediately on Alice and Brian's side. Is it because Brian invited Mason to come work out with him and a few of the other guys in the neighborhood on Friday mornings and the fancy new gym that just got finished? Yeah, man meet Monday. Who could say it's after one of these man meet Mondays that Mason makes what I consider it to be the first of several mistakes.

Before we get into those mistakes, though, how do you feel about the app next door? Okay. I mean, obviously next door is insane. It's a gathering place for the most insane behavior I've ever seen. And I actually just rejoined next door, not from my neighborhood, but from my friend's neighborhood. Oh. They were back home visiting their family.

And they were like, I don't know what's going on. There's like sirens outside and some guy is shirtless running from a van. Like, what is happening? And I was like, oh, I'm going to go in next door and see if I can find anything. So I joined next door for this random neighborhood in the suburbs of L.A. That I have never lived in. And I open up every day and just see all the drama happening in this neighborhood. And it's so funny.

It's a source of gossip for me It is I downloaded Nextdoor for the first time Once last year Because I kept seeing these two dogs My neighborhood that just didn't have collars And I live in Brooklyn And I'm like, whose dogs are bees?

And Nextdoor was fucking useless Let me tell you I got no help And they still send me email notifications to this day I'm like, fuck this No, it's really crazy I am told that in the early days of Nextdoor Like it launched in 2011

I'm told it was far more useful and, like, less cop-adjacent back then. I was on it in 2011, in 2012. Like, I was on it right when it opened. And no, it was immediately it was there. Well, then there's no justification for why our friend Mason decides to volunteer to help moderate this neighborhood's next door. Mason. I get it. He's trying to, like, be of service.

You can't see the phase I mean. I was like, our listeners did not see the face you just made. Well, also, one of the guys. who comes to Brian's Man Meet Mondays is a moderator of the Next Door page. And he seems really cool. And also, Mason really wants to impress Brian. And Brian is so community-minded.

You know, you can tell because he lets Mason use his gym. Mason volunteers to moderate the neighborhood next door page. This is mistake number one. And to Mason's credit, he figures this out pretty quickly. This next door page, like most of them, has staffing issues. As soon as they get one person to volunteer, someone else quits, probably because the work is both thankless and unpaid. Yes.

Mason even tries to get Gabby to join him, and she just laughs in his face. So Mason decides to ask for volunteers on the next door page, and as luck would have it, exactly one person responds. Oh, my God. Can you guess who it is? I don't know which one of the Smiths, but it's one of the Smiths. Correct. Yeah.

It's Mrs. Smith, the enemy of Mason's new best friend, Brian. And this is maybe why. Mason makes mistake number two. And I'm going to be honest, what happens next is absolutely wild, even to me. Wow. Mason decides to respond to Mrs. Smith, and he writes, I appreciate your offer to volunteer,

especially since no one else has. However, we are looking for impartial volunteers to act moderators, and households involved in conflict in the neighborhood will not be accepted. I'm going to have to decline your help. Oh, my God.

Political awareness zero in this guy. Why? I know. Like, just think a move ahead, Mason. Just one move ahead. This is truly cuckoo bananas to me.

The response you just had is exactly the response that Gabby had when Mason tells her that he did this. Gabby's like, why? A, what the fuck is wrong with you? B, why the fuck didn't you tell me? Oh, my God. See, did she reply? What did she say?

Mason's like, she offered to stop by to talk this over in person. She's coming over with guns. He's going to get jumped. Mason's about to get jumped by an old lady. Before Mason could even reply, there was a knock on the front door. She ran over there. Mason's like, I turned all the lights off and hit in the basement. No.

Oh, no. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. This is where Gabby finds him. So they're together when Ms. Smith messages Mason again. Miss Smith is like, although you might be the moderator of this page, you are not the gatekeeper of the neighborhood.

We are equals. My offer to volunteer is not yours to decline. Ooh. Furthermore, Ms. Smith continues. Mason hadn't even bothered to speak to her or her husband about their issues with Alice and Brian, so whatever he thinks he knows is one-sided at best, and slander at worst.

In fact, none of this is even his business, given how recently he had moved to the neighborhood. The neighborhood, Ms. Smith, have been living in for going on three decades. Ms. Smith is like, perhaps you should consider asking your new friends about what happened in 99 before you start making judgments. Oh, oh. And then she says she no longer feels comfortable volunteering her time to moderate the next door page,

given the hostility she has been received with. However, more discussion will be forthcoming. Ooh. Ooh. She got a little backbone. Mason did not sleep well that night. I know Mason was tossing and turning that night. What options do you think our friends have here?

Mason's got to make this right. Like, he's got to apologize. Like, this is not me, like, my bad. Like, how can we make this right? Yeah. Gabby is like, I really wish you had talked to me before you sent that email. Yeah. But she's like, here we are.

So she helps Mason craft a response. And the response goes, like, you know what? You're right. This is actually none of my business. in this kind of situation there's no real right or wrong and Mason certainly didn't mean to imply that the Smiths were in the wrong

what he meant to say was that he would prefer to have a co-admin who didn't have any ongoing conflicts with any of their neighbors even if they were totally understandable conflicts luckily a few more neighbors had inquired about volunteering

this is a lie by the way so Mason was able to fill the position he apologizes profusely for the trouble And from here, Gabby and Mason hope that the Smiths drop it. Do you think... The Smiths drop it? These vindictive people?

The same people who installed like high-beam floodlights on one side of the house, just, you know, I don't think the Smiths are going to drop it. Yeah. Ms. Smith responds like, your language demonstrates that you yourself are not able to be neutral, which some might say makes you unqualified for the position you hold. Furthermore, because Ms. Smith loves it furthermore. So, furthermore, Ms. Smith writes, I have spoken to other concerned parties in the neighborhood who were dismayed by Mason's response. Dismayed.

Ms. Smith says she will let those other concerned parties speak for themselves in person should they wish to do so. What this means is that for the next few weeks, Mason is terrified every time he leaves his house that he's going to be accosted by a boomer. And then there is the fact that exactly 48 hours after Ms. Smith sent her last email, which Mason does not reply to, by the way. So 48 hours after that last email, motion sensor lights are installed on the side of the house that the Smith share with Gabby Mason. Straight out of the playbook.

These people are consistent. You got to give them that. It's true. It's true. Point for consistency. At this point, Mason's like, okay, you know what? Being a volunteer, your admin for a next door page is not worth this trouble. More accurately, Gabby is like, fix this or else. I will not be eating my dinner under floodlights. So the first thing Mason does is install blackout curtains throughout the house.

And then he tries to step down from his position as moderator with the thought that this would appease the Smiths, which is a good thought. We'll never really know because you remember those staffing issues, I mentioned, they haven't gotten any better. Yeah, of course not. And according to help.nextor.com, quote, if you are a group admin, you will need to promote another neighbor to the group admin position before you step down, end quote.

No, no, oh my God. So Mason is stuck being a moderator until he can find someone else to replace him, which is getting harder and harder by the day because everyone in the neighborhood has seemingly heard that Gabby and Mason have joined Alice and Brian on the Smith's shit list. And listen, the neighbors are all very sympathetic. They all know the Smiths can be a little particular. But they also know from experience that the Smith's shit list is a bad place to be, not least because people on their shit list, the Smiths don't pick up all these shit from

those people's houses. So it's a literal shit list. I'm getting a lot of respect for the smiths. actually. I mean, these people are professionals. Like, this is the thing in D.C. You never know what people did before they retired. Like, these sound like some CIA folks. These sound like some people who really were out there, like, bawling. And they know their games. So you have made, you are entering a world of hurt if you go into it with them. So we're almost at the end of our story. What options do you think our friends have now? I still think that you've got to try to make it right with the Smiths. Somehow, we've got to have peace talks now. And you have to enter into that with like a full-throated, like, listen, this was on me. Yeah. I definitely misplayed this.

I fucked this up. You know what I mean? You know, the other misstep that keeps popping up in my head is you get the story from this rich couple and you never verify with anyone else. Because you've only heard one side of the story. You want to get information from other neighbors, you know, to get another perspective. Because it could be that these people with all this money actually did some fucked up shit. Who knows what happened back? in 99.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Who knows what happened in 99? Exactly. So that was a misstep. You can't go back and undo that now. At this point, you've moved to a new neighborhood. You've immediately created a shitstorm for yourself.

You have to just kind of like, whether it is best you can, but you want to see if you can't make some kind of like halfway amends to these people and be like, look, I'm sorry about this. This has clearly gotten out of hand. What can we do to make this right? Yeah. I said that Mason's first mistake was volunteering for the next door page, but I do think you're right that their first mistake was actually just trusting what Alice and Brian told them.

Yeah, yeah. Well, about a month after the Smith installed their second set of lights, something happens that literally no one in this story, not Gabby or Mason, Alice or Brian, or even the Smiths could have guessed. An unexpected hero comes to the rescue. Oh. Ollie. Go on. I'm at the edge of my seat. So those bright-ass lights that the Smiths installed, which let me remind you, allegedly installed specifically for this dog, actually caused Ollie to develop a light sensitivity.

Like he starts barking every time a light gets turned on, whether it's inside the house or out, like a pair of headlights, the oven light, a candle, barking. I think Ollie's the real villain here. Like, you can give all the kids all the rides you want. Like, you, sir, are the problem. Gabby and Mason find this out because Ms. Smith posts on next door because not only is she uninstalling her motion sensor lights, she was also demanding that her neighbors use only yellow light bulbs going forward because Ollie's therapist says that warm light is soothing to him.

Of course, yes, by all means. Yeah. Her neighbors who have been subjected to floodlights for going on five months at this point, are all like, unless you're paying for all my new light bulbs, you can fuck off. Yeah. Yes. At this point,

the Smiths get the city involved. I just love the city coming in and being like, wait, what? No, exactly. Apparently, there are laws about something called light trespass, which basically means

like how much of the light from your house can spill onto someone else's property. Absolutely. Is it ironic that the Smiths are complaining about this? A little bit. A little bit. But the city getting involved actually ends up working out in everyone else's favor because apparently the fence between the Smith's house and Alice and Brian's house,

the one that the Smiths had made them rebuild before even starting the remodel, it's actually three feet too far onto Alice and Brian's property. Oh, my God. Which means that legally, Alice and Brian could force the Smith to rebuild the fence, which would also make Ollie's yard smaller. Oh, my God. Yeah, the Smith dropped the lighting issue immediately. Yeah. They were bested.

They were had. They were hoisted on their own partard. Exactly. And Ollie starts walking around the neighborhood and apparently. hair of little tinted goggles, which is honestly really, really cute. I can never hate you, Ali. I take back my previous statements about you being the villain. Around the same time, the Ali starts wearing his goggles. Brian and Alice finally finished their remodel. And this, along with Ollie's goggles, really go a long way to taking down the

collective temperature of the neighborhood. And that's basically the end of our story. I do have some updates for you, but if you had to pick one villain in the story, who would it be? Villain is an interesting word. Because I can understand everyone's point of view. Ollie is definitely a problem. Yeah. How do you solve a problem like Ollie? Yeah, exactly. So the Smiths are definitely villainous. This rich couple, I'm looking at them a little sideways now because they must have known that they were fomenting great drama by inviting these people in and giving them this crazy like one-sided tale. So if I have to pick a villain, no one comes out of this blameless, but I think I'm going to put it on the rich neighbors. I think

they're the ones who made like the most crucial set of like malevolent actions that led to drama. for everyone. Yeah. So first update is about a year and a half after the story, the Smiths actually end up moving away. They say that Ollie is getting too old to navigate the stairs and the Maryland winters, and he needs to take the waters. So they moved to Sarasota, Florida.

We wish them the best. No comment. I don't want to offend any of the Florida listeners. This entire saga does end up being the beginning to a long and beautiful friendship between Gabby and Mason and Brian and Alice. They spend many winter afternoons hanging out in the sauna, and on one of these afternoons, Gabby and Mason finally get the courage to ask Brian and Alice

about what had happened in 1999. Alice looks a little sheepish, and Brian turns even redder than he had been from the steam. Apparently in 99, when Alice and Brian had three kids in the house and were working insane hours at the hospital. They had gotten a little lax about upkeeping in their backyard. And a tree that the Smiths had been complaining about for years got blown over in a storm right into the Smith's living room window.

What? Alice and Brian were a little stingier about money then. They had three kids to put through college, so they wound up in court. Obviously, the Smith won. and that's the beginning of the feud. And that's the end of our story. Wow. They left that detail out.

They didn't tell that part. Gossip is about what you leave out as much as what you include. They clearly left this out. This would have been a very important detail to tell someone as you're trying to get them up to speed on the relationship to completely leave out an entire court case and lawsuit that you lost. that's suss. This is suss behavior. So I, you know, I was right. My instincts that there was something off about this rich couple and the way that they immediately told you this story that just so happens to make them the hapless victims of these, like, of these heartless people next door.

This is, yeah, question marks. Carvel, thank you so much. That was so great. That was such a great story. I love that Ali came back and was the hero. It's a real Chekhov's gun situation. I know. Showed us this dog at the beginning and then in Act 3.

Here he comes to the rest. This is beautiful. This is so well done. His anxiety, his sensitivities. They're actually what bring us all together. They're what bring us all together. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at NormalGossip at Defector.com.

Or you can leave us. a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast, want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at support normalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at NormalGossip. You can follow me on social media at Hey Dene, H-E-Y-Y-D-N-A-E. This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragly Ricks and Jay Tolviera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatsick.

The co-creators and Dowager Queens of Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney, and Defector's Supervising Producer Alex Sujong Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defector's Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Coon are Defector's business guys. Tom Leigh is our editor-in-chief. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at NormalGossip. Dot Store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art.

Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Raw, Catherine Shue, Serena Imbler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rodo for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a call. collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this for me. Radiotopia, from PRX.