Normal Gossip - Family Mealworms with Patrick Redford

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Friend of the show and fellow Defector comrade Patrick Redford is on the public feed for the first time! This week, we're talking about ~intentional living communities and their alternative sources of protein. Follow Patrick on IG @patrickredford PSA: This is the season four FINALE! We're going to take a quick break to tour around the country (see you there?!) and then we'll be back for season 5. You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jae Towle Vieira is our production assistant. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Credits recorded by Mack Mashburn.

Alex, do you think that we should tell them our little secret? I think we should. Our secret is that we are going on tour this summer. Woo! We're going to be sharing a new gossip story with you all, but this time, live on a stage. There will be special guests and glow sticks and games. It's going to be so messy. You can get tickets at normalgossiplive.com and bring your secrets.

Because we're gonna read them. Shee. Shee. Shee. Shee. Shee. Shee. Shee.

Shee. Shee. Hello and welcome to normal gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Welcome to the season finale. After this week's episode, we're going to be on break for a little bit. When we know when that break is ending, we will tell you, I promise. Before we get into the show,

let's do a little bit of business. Business is one. Between the seasons, we are going on tour. You can find the dates and the tickets at NormalGossipLive.com. We are so excited to meet you on the road. There will be glow sticks. There will be secrets. There will be special guests. It's very exciting. We're thrilled. Second piece of business. We do have merch at NormalGossip.store. We have t-shirts. We have a new sexy t-shirt that has like little hidden things from episodes in it, which is very cute. And finally, just a reminder that if you think that you are going to die without gossip between the end of this season and the beginning of the next season, we do have monthly episodes

for subscribers. You can become a subscriber at supportnormalgossip.com. Okay, no more business. I am all amped up about our guest today. You may know him from the subscriber episodes, talking about chess players cheating with anal beads and the wag at the Christie scandal. I know him because he's my coworker at Defector.com

and my buddy, he writes about soccer and basketball and how to make no chino and five million other things. It's Patrick Redford, Patrick, welcome. Oh, thanks for having me. It's so good to be back. I guess slash here for the first time. This is gonna be fun. Yeah, how do you feel about being

on your first public episode? It's, it feels good. I realized that before we did the first Chess drama episode, I typed up like this whole long relationship with gossip thing and I was so ready. And then you didn't ask me and then I was like, oh, I should be, I should be a little fucker and ask Kelsey about her reaction to gossip, but that would have been, that would have been way too rude. So no, it feels good. I'm excited

to be here. Good. I'm glad that you're excited to be here. I'm excited to have you. Do you want to answer that question now and tell the listeners what your relationship with gossip is? Yeah. My relationship with gossip is that for the, about the first two thirds of my life, I did not have much of like a conscious relationship with gossip. You were gonna say consciousness and I was like what was happening? Okay continue. Yeah, I was very as very empty-headed for the first 20. Okay. Like, you know, I loved rumors, loved gossip, all that kind of thing but didn't really think about it until I started working as a journalist for Deadspin in 2015.

And I learned two things that you know very well, which is that so much of our job concerns, like gossip and a professional sense, where stories you write either involve gossiping with people, or finding out what people's gossip is, and putting that raw material through the blog factory, and having a story pop out the other end. But more importantly, and the thing that really like changed my relationship with gossip is finding out how much journalists love

to gossip about each other and finding out that there's this sort of just pantheon of media gossip that you learn more and more about the longer you work in here. Was there a moment that made you realize this, or was it just the steady over time trickling of information about people you didn't know? I joined Gaukra Media as one of the last people there during it's like, I know. Twice.

I think that my first official day as a staff writer after being on contract for eight months was like, some Monday and April and then that Friday, the whole Cogin decision came down. So we had a good, very short run. It could one day. I remember just joining Slack as like this fresh face, little Californian guy and then just instantly learning like who was scabbing and who was screwing?

I think those the two great genres of like media gossip. Can you tell the people what you mean by scabbing, just in case they aren't sure? Yeah, so I mean, through union efforts, you find that there's a real-world utility to gossip because so much of unionizing is just finding out who's making how much money, which bosses are bad, and creating this shared lexicon of grievance

that you can then like unite and fight towards. And then in unionization processes, you find out like who's against it and you find out where a lot of people stand on a lot of things and people love the gossip about that kind of stuff, including me. You have your little list of like who is Gab and also who's screwin'. That sounds ominous, but you do. The two genres, you're right. It's like, what are you doing at work

and what are you doing in love? Okay, I would like to talk about, I would like to do something that we don't usually do, which is something topical. This week, in the news, in the news, this week on Twitter.com, people have been taking a food-disgust quiz that I have demanded you take as part of this experience.

And now I would like to discuss how it went for you. For people who haven't taken the quiz the way it works is you're given 25 questions that vary from things like would you eat in a restaurant where there were insects in the bathroom to will you eat wealthy spinach. And you say agree or disagree. And then it gives you a little radial chart that shows what kind of food you're disgusted by. So it's not a picky eater chart.

It's like how much of a garbage disposal are you? How did your quiz go? What was your experience like? A little shocking. A lot of scores I saw were hovering around, a disgust score of 50% average. Mine was 14.99%. Okay, mine was nine%. So we, the, we are actually the disgusting brothers.

It was the garbage. Yeah. We love bad things. Why were you surprised to see yours at 14%? Like, how do you feel? No. No, because I, I'm not, I guess I am a somewhat picky eater in one

very specific way, which we can get to, but like I'll kind of eat, you know, anything. I just assume the digestive system, you know, however many years humans have been evolving, it's gotten good, you know? Our body's kind of know what to do. If like you cut the moly part off of a piece of bread and eat the rest, like, we got ways of dealing with that, you know? It's not my problem. Yeah. And if you cut the moldy part off of a piece of bread and eat the rest, we got ways of dealing with that. It's not my problem. The one I had was insect contaminants. I think that was because I answered a question where it's like, if the worm is in one part

of an apple, you eat the other part. And I said no because that's the worm's house. And I don't know what he did in there. So it wasn't that you were afraid of the fact that the worm was in there. It was that you felt that that was the worm's home. I guess it was I was afraid because it was his home. No, I mean, I don't want to evict a worm. I want to bite a worm. And if I did both the same time, I would feel bad in multiple ways.

Wow. So I don't want to bring that into my life. Famously producer Alex, who John Loughlin once bit into an apple and bit a worm in half. So that's her trauma. I would like to know how many apples she's had since then. Alex says, would you have picked me if I was a worm? I would never have picked you if you were a worm Alex. That's beautiful. What is your opinion on worms generally?

I'm forum. I love the really weird long ones after the rain. They I took I took a class in soils in college. I was trained as a geologist for some reason For some reason you like it. Yeah, that's true. I like it. I mean, I don't do it professionally, but I enjoyed it Yeah, but I think I want you to finish your story But I do think that you and I both believe that college is a place where you should just like learn shit You think it's cool and then you can find your job later Yeah, like unless you like want to become a chemical engineer like you probably shouldn't go study like English lit or whatever, but like the good thing about the adult world is that it's messy and silly and changes constantly and

If you're a young money hustler, you can kinda find a way in. Okay, continue to go class and soil. Yeah, and the main thing you learn about soils is that like the really important thing is like the level of organic matter and worms place such a huge role in that, you know, breaking leaves and mulch

and things of that nature down into usable bits because they're chomping it up as a snack. Yeah, they're just, they're going to town. They're burrowing, they're tunneling. It's going in one end out the other. Incredible. Enhance, so I respect the mighty worm. Wow, okay, well that's important because we're going to come back to worms later.

Lovely. Oh wait, my one specific food disgusting. Yes, please. Is small round, bursty objects. Oh, I knew this about you like gushers. No, gushers are fine because they're not round enough. But like peas, blueberries, those are like, those are the main two enemies.

Like if there's peas and like a fried rice, I'm not eating that fried rice. Oh, it's not happening. It's said to you. Is there anything else besides peas and blueberries? I can't even think of any cherry to me. Grapes and cherry tomatoes are sort of like one of the- Those are enemies all the most.

Okay. Yeah. If any of these products have been like thoroughly destroyed, like I can have blueberries in a smoothie. I will blend that smoothie for 15 minutes if I have to to get any remnants of blueberry texture out of there. Fatifist. Yeah, I mean, look, I gotta take care of myself.

Yeah, it's nice to have one, you know, manic pixie dream girl food decision that you keep inside you. I know of one other person in my life who has this exact thing, and I felt so seen in that moment because I thought I was the only one who was like this. And I'm sure there are dozens out there. I feel that if this does not get cut,

it will be like when Kaelin said that she had 200 people on her close friends. And like suddenly all of these people were DMing us and being like, I do that. She's normal actually. So perhaps you can create a support group. I would love to enter the Kaelar zone. We all want to enter the Kaelar zone.

That's a rare place. It's beautiful. Are you ready to do some gossip? I would love to enter the Cailer Zone. We all want to enter the Cailer Zone. That's a rare place. It's beautiful. Are you ready to do some gossip? I would love to hear some gossip. I can't wait. OK, great. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK.

OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK.

OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK.

OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. Our friend of our friend today, her name is Gladys. Gladys. Gladys.

She's one of those people who is always outside. She's pressing flowers into a little book. She's learning tree names. She's always been like this. As a girl, love to play in streams, as a teen, love to climb trees, young adult, she was lying in fields, right? She had two kids, she like spent all of their childhood

trying to imbue the same love of nature in them. Pointing to various mushrooms and saying, eat that one, don't eat that one. Exactly. That sort of thing. Exactly, that whole sort of thing. This kind of bark is cool. This kind is not cool. I don't know anything about bark. I think we all need a gladisth in our lives because I've spent a lot of time outside and the one thing I've

learned, there's always more you can learn. Wow. And so my advice to you is find the gladisth. I mean, I guess we'll find out more about you. I doubt if you want to. Maybe this is bad advice, but I will say find the gladisys in your life and seek out their advice in this one specific area. That's contingent on learning more about her. Love that. Sorry to derail. In Gladys' 40s, she joined the local like nature preserve in her city and started volunteering on the weekends. She was like, this is great. Her kids went off to college and she was like, what if I did this full time? And she became the director of this nature preserve. By the time Gladys retired a few years back,

she'd been in that role for 10 years. Now she's 62. She's gone guy-a-mode for a long time. Exactly, she's retired. She still feels young. She still has energy. She just is like, I don't wanna work anymore, you know? Stay outside Gladys.

Yeah, but that sun head on. What are you thinking she should do? I think she should take a perhaps smaller position at that nature reserve or go do something like the Pacific Crest Trail. Yeah. That's a bad idea. That could be fun. You never know. At least do segments of it. You know, just take a bigger adventure. See a different kind of outside. Yeah. Gladys does go out west because her son lives there. And she's like my son, I raised him right. He lives in the woods, he loves nature. I will go visit him and see if he can help me like figure out a future for myself.

And her son is like, I have an idea to help you figure out how to find a future for yourself. What if we did mushrooms? Gladys has never done mushrooms, so what do you think? I think this is a great idea. You do. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a real therapeutic value in psilocybin. Like, you know, I think there's sort of this justifiable worry that if you take, basically of taking too much.

And I think the thing about mushrooms is you can creep up to that line very slowly and gradually and find it yourself And even at low levels you can get a lot out of it So I think this is I think Gladys has done the exact right thing. She's found the Gladys in her life Gladys is like I don't have a job. Why not? So Gladys does her little mushrooms and the whole world like opens up before her She's like the trees are so green the moss is so soft. She like pet a bush and cried, right? She was like, this is the most magical experience I've ever had. Gladys is never going inside again.

Yeah, so that's the problem. How do you think Gladys felt when she returned from this trip to her like small beige apartment? Oh yeah, she probably thought this is all there is. I I've had my world has been cracked open like the window of Possibility it's been thrown wide open and I have to live at like a higher a higher intensity. Yes So then how do you find a higher intensity? Four words a yo wasca I don't know I like that you're just like, do a different drug. See, but that's a bad idea.

No, Gladys. Maybe she should get into like psychedelic therapies. Like, I do someone who uses like, who, you know, is training to be like a psilocyte in therapy. That's a very Bayeris sentence. Okay, I'm gonna call that person. That sounds great. Gladys is like, she's like, well, one of my children helped me.

I'll call my other child because she has this idea. Her oldest daughter, Courtney, lives in a co-living community. Oh, yeah. These are places that used to be called communes, but they've since rebranded. And Courtney, like Gladys,

come visit her like a few months ago and it was like a movie and Gladys is like, what if I lived in the same co-living community as Courtney? This could not possibly go wrong. You know, thanks for living. Are you being sarcastic? No, no, living in a co-living community,

even with people who don't probably have some like deep-seated trauma you need to work through, is like, that's never a problem. No one's ever leaving their stuff everywhere or taking the good acts and leaving it embedded in a tree until it gets rusty. Nothing like that ever happens. And if anything bring family will just

lower the dramatic tension. So this is a great idea. The acts things so specific. What? I really, that has never happened to me, but I have some experience in light co-living and new type things. My partner was working at a nonprofit and I had no job there or job.

Seriously because we could have had just quit our jobs. So I found in nature which was I would just take this truck into the woods and just find a dead tree and chop it down and break it down every day and that was my job. And so I have probably been the acts person now that I think about it. I worked through some stuff. This is good. Wow, it is good. It's important to work through things. Okay. Gladys calls Courtney and she's like, what up babe? What if I came to live near you? We will have so much fun. And Courtney is like, abs a fucking lootly not. She's like, no, like I love you. You cannot live in my co-living community with me. Like that is too much. Respect, respect for being able to like set the boundary.

Agree, it's hard to set a boundary with your parents. If she successfully sets it. She sets it. She's like, no. But Courtney does say she's like, I would be happy to help you find your own co-living community if that is your goal here. That's great daughtering. You think so? Yeah, I think that's finding like a nice synthesis.

Yeah, and Courtney's like, another thing you could consider is a retirement community because you are 62 and those exist. Gladys is not going to like that. Why? Because she's just done mushrooms and she wants to experience life. Yeah, there are actually two specific reasons that Gladys doesn't like that. The first is that most retirement communities are air conditioned and Gladys hates air conditioning and thinks it's very bad for the earth. The second is that a lot of retirement homes and senior living communities receive federal funding and if you receive federal funding you cannot allow people to smoke weed there and Gladys wants to smoke weed. Gladys is so cool holding out with her. So she's like, Courtney?

No. No retirement community, but yes, help me find a co-living community. Like that's what I want. I'm now just imagining Gladys like on a sort of like very like looney tunes chase, running around the senior living facility, talking up, and going around, finding a big butterfly net, trying to get it back. Exactly. That's what she's trying to avoid. Maybe she doesn't like running. Yeah, she wants to chill. Gladys is like, you know, wild court needs looking, maybe I'll

look too. So she does like some googling, but she's like not very good at googling, and so she really can't find anything. And she's like, maybe I'll move to Canada. She's like, there's a lot of nature in Canada, but it turns out that it's kind of hard to move to another country, so she's like, that's not going to work. And while she's doing this, she's kind of like, okay, I think what I've figured out is that I would like to be in the Southwest.

I like the desert. I love turquoise. I think what I've figured out is that I would like to be in the Southwest. I like the desert. I love turquoise. I think it would be fun. All true. Southwest is amazing. So she tells Courtney, she's like, the thing is, I've decided I want to go to the Southwest. And Courtney is like, okay. Yeah.

Couple weeks later, Courtney calls and she's like, guess what? I found a place for you to live. My friend who I live within this community told me about it and it's still small. It's like 30 people and five of them are children. Lovely. She's like the website says, we live light on the land we own together and value mindful connection in our work

and decision making process. I'm trying to figure out where the drama could come from. Uh huh. You look stressed. Well, just foregrounding decision making process in that. I'm just putting a pin in that. Uh-huh. Okay.

Gladys is like, that sounds great. That's exactly what I want. Perfect. The community is called, Comanumo. What does that stand for? Thank you for asking. It means community in Esperanto.

Do you know what Esperanto is? Is that like that's like someone tried to create like a universal language at some point in the past and that's Esperanto? Yes. Esperanto is a language. I'm doing air quotes here. Quotico language created by a Warsaw-based ophthalmologist. What is that? Is that eyes? Eyes. ophthalmologist. Is that eyes? Eyes. You famously use your eyes to scan written language. I've seen it all by myself. So true. Wow. Yeah. It's basically the same as being a linguist. Yeah. And it was made to like blend all the languages. What that means is that if you listen to Esperanto, it kind of sounds like what English speakers think Spanish is. to Esperanto, it kind of sounds like what English speakers think Spanish is.

Whoa. That, have you ever watched those like those videos of what English sounds like to a non-English speaker? Those, those weird me out so much. It's like, it's like reverse ASMR. Yes, I don't like them either. They make me really stressed. Okay. Co-manummo is a co-living community that is closer to a commune.

It's a mix of older grownups who just want to vibe. Everybody's there to have a good time, right? Sweet. There are also a lot of young people there who have read a lot of theory and are like trying to build stuff. What do you think? I think this is great and I think she should grab her SPF. She should put those teavis on. She should go to Comonumo. I think Glad should put those teavis on, she should go to

Komonuma. I think Gladys' next chapter is going to be a good one. You think so? Yeah. Great. Well, the fact that the story is coming up on this podcast makes me think it's going to get complicated. But right now, if I'm just locked in on Gladys, I'm thinking this is going to be great.

63 is going to be her year. Hell yeah. Gladys is like, I'm in. She applies. She gets accepted. Let's year. Hell yeah. Gladys is like, I'm in. She applies. She gets accepted. Let's go. Hell yeah. The only day that new people are allowed to arrive at this community is summer solstice. Okay. Alright, it's that. Alright, let's go. That's when new members are welcomed. So Gladys shows up. She's got all her stuff, right? Immediately, she's introduced to her buddy.

She's like, given a buddy to show her everything. Her buddy is a man named Duncan. Duncan. Duncan is in his early 30s. He's like very tall, very tan. He's wearing like Birkin stocks. He has long hair, but it's like very luscious for some reason. And he's wearing what I have learned are called Baja Hoodies. Is that like the poncho kind of thing? Yes, exactly. Yeah, okay. Gladys is like, great vibes already. I'm loving this. She's like, what kind of shampoo do you use, right?

Hahahaha. Duncan is like, here's your small cabin, showing her around all the things, right? He's like, here's the central area where we eat, here are the chicken coops, here are like the big freezers, here's all our stuff. Beautiful, yeah. He also explains to Gladys, he's like, the freezers, here's all our stuff. Beautiful, yeah. He also explains to Gladys, he's like the way this commune runs is on committees. Our company runs on committees, can you explain

the way that committee places work? Yeah, so all those ding-dongs who make $800,000 that we talked about in the start, we have to do all of their jobs ourselves too. Because we co-own our company. Yeah, because de facto is a worker-run subscriber-funded company, we have two business people, and then you and I have to help buy our company's health insurance and work on the logistics of throwing events and things of that nature. It's very fun and rewarding. And you have to treat it as like an

essential part of your job. And I'm guessing that if they're living there, that these committees are equally essential. Yes. And it's a way of making sure that everyone is helping, right, by giving everyone a job. So it's like everyone is assigned a committee. And then within the committee you have a role. So Duncan is on the Community Cohesion Committee? Oh, the CCC. Yeah, the CCC Classic, which is basically like a Vince and also making sure that no one's mad. Yeah, this sounds like the Vibes Committee kind of. Yeah, it basically is a committee full of vibes.

Which in a place like that where vibes are like kind of the whole thing. Very important. Yes. And in this community, people can be like on multiple committees. Okay. That's important to know. Okay. So Duncan is like really busy today because as part of the CCC, he has to like welcome new people to the community, right? And they have like a little event.

So he's like, Gladys, I'm so glad you're- On summer solstice. Yeah, it's summer solstice. So Duncan is like, Gladys, I'm so glad you're... On summer solstice. Yeah, it's summer solstice. So Duncan is like, Gladys, I'm so glad you're here, but like, I got a run. I have things to do. And Gladys is like, that's fine. I have to reattune some vibes over in the Northwest corner

by the Sump area and in 45 minutes, that should be fine. Exactly. S and vibe smithing to do. He runs away. Gladys is like this fine. She puts on her big hat. She's like meeting a few people. Around six Duncan, like comes and hurts her, right? He's like, it's time to go to the like center square area.

He's like, there's a huge bonfire to welcome everyone. Nice. Never ends poorly. Gladys is not happy about the bonfire because apparently they're very bad for the environment. Lots of smoke. Apparently one hour of bonfire is like something like the equivalent of a car idling for a year. Whoa that's is that wow. So it's like the equivalent of like a third of a Bitcoin. That's why. Yes and Gladys is like it explicitly says in the rules of this community that no like it is forbidden for cars to idle so how come we can have a bonfire? Okay, so

Being in these types of spaces, I'm sort of familiar with the Gladys archetype of like person who comes in and is immediately like no that's that's wrong. This thing that you have all communally decided because of X. And traditionally that does not go for well. Gladys is like, this is a hypocrisy. I hate it. And people are making smores with like packaged gram crackers and chocolates. And Gladys is like, that is so much plastic. She's not happy. So Gladys, I mean, it seems like Gladys what she really is looking for is like a much more intense like much more intentional hardcore community than this and is having like it's almost like

reverse culture shock where she would not hear expecting it to be one way but it's like more normal than she thought which I guess sounds very disappointing from her perspective. What do you think she should do? I mean, I'm so the opposite way in new social situations, like I would just kind of sit there silently, try to figure out the group dynamics, and then find my entry point and work my way in very slowly

and very harmoniously, but it sounds like what she's doing is she's gonna find, if I were her with her sort of stats and loadout, I would find Duncan and say, this is bad, douse this bonfire, we're gonna create our own artisanal marshmallows from, you know, from rabbit brush and the things of that nature. And then we can have our smores.

Gladys goes to find Duncan. She's searching, searching, searching. She finally finds him like over by the smores and she's like, Duncan, can I talk to you? I have some concerns. Duncan is like hold on one sec because Duncan is as many people do when they're making smores. He's holding like in one hand the two graham crackers with the chocolate on it and in the other hand he's holding a marshmallow that is on fire like a torch. And he's like trying to rotate it in a perfect circle with only the one hand. And ultimately it's just the top's going to catch on fire. I'm sorry. Exactly. And oh wait.

So are you a like rotisserie marshmallow person? I am. I am. It's annoying. You got to find the right spot and you got to just use your two hands and just like imagine it's like a tiny little cylindrical rotisserie chicken. Yeah. And you're just lovingly synching it. That's exactly what I do and everyone hates it. They're like, Oh, they can- They can- Oh, they can- I'm like-

They can cry through their substandard s'mores. Like, that's not your problem. Duncan, his- his marshmallow is on fire, right? Like, it's black on the outside and he's like, this is fine. But he's like, I can't talk to you right now because I'm trying to navigate my flaming marshmallow into this s this more sandwich. In his struggle, the like plastic wrapper for a chocolate falls onto the ground.

And Gladys is like, this man cannot help me. She has found... I just like... I feel so bad for her, like this type of scenario where you build something up in your mind. And for her, it's probably the result of this like psychedelic enlightenment that like this feels like the end point and they're just burning plastic in the desert. Like that, the way to that disappointment really makes me feel bad. Yeah.

So she goes and she like, she feels really disappointed. And she's like, I'm going to go sit on a log by this stupid fire, I guess. It's so hot. She's like, this isn't what I thought it would be. I hope she finds a friend. Well, great news. Here comes her friend. She's sitting there.

She's like, not feeling good. She's feeling really down. And a mom is like coming by with her son. And the son is like begging his mom for a smore. He's like, please, I want a smore, please. And the mom looks at her son and is like, sweetie. We can't have smores because we don't want to contribute to waste. But I have these carob brownies.

Do you know what carob is? It's... I know that I don't like it, but I don't really. Wait, no, it's like fake chocolate, right? Yes, it is real. Like it's like a tree that grows carob in the same way that like coca beans are real. Right. I will now quote a Jonathan Kaufman essay in the New Yorker in 2019. He said, in the 1970s, carab infiltrated food co-ops and baking books as if it had been sent on a coin

intel permission to alienate the left's next generation. So it is not beloved. Wow, that's so, I love imagining like the CIA pitch meeting in 1973 with they're like, okay, we got it, we got it. We're going to make this chocolate that just kind of tastes like you're biting a desk and this, this will so, so much dissension in the ranks. No one will ever be able to find out what we're up to. Yeah, it's perfect. Everyone will become a Republican because their mom fed these brownies. Gladys though is like, she fed her kids care of brownies, right? She's like, caribtries thrive in the southwest. So this is like, local product.

Gladys' ears perk up. She's like, here's a woman for me. This is a friend. She's like, maybe's a woman for me. This is a friend. She's like, maybe this boy will also grow up to show his mom the wonder of mushrooms, right? She's like, hello, I'm Gladys. Yeah, she's like, hello, I found this nice root on my way here, I pulled it out of the ground.

Would you like to chew on this as little bit of dessert? Yeah, exactly. This woman's name is Tammy. She's in her early 40s, and they are like fast friends. Over the first few weeks, they're bonding all the time. Tammy's telling Gladys about how she's making eco bricks. Do you know what eco bricks are? Is it like natural building material?

It's like, what if you shoved a bunch of plastic wrappers into a plastic water bottle and then you can use that like a brick? Oh, so Eko is sort of like a kind of recycling, in like the recycling sense. It is like reuse. I've never heard of this now. Yeah, okay. So Tammy is making those.

She's very excited about them. Tammy's like showing Gladys that chicken coops like they're bonding it up. Okay, and Gladys is feeling more welcomed because we're just- It's feeling way more welcomed. And what she also learns from Tammy is that part of the reason she was feeling this way is that basically there is a divide in the commune.

Or always is. There are people in the commune because they are so serious about the environment and like wanna live in this intentional community. And there are people who are in the commune because they like the vibes and think it's cool. Tammy is like, what you have to do is figure out which group someone is in

and then you know how to interact with them. Wow, okay. That's a good advice, but that's a hard way to live. It really is. Tammy though is like her confidant. They gossip all the time, they're having a great time, they're going on little nature walks. It's with Tammy that she's able to like digest

the first of the two issues that she experiences in the group. Would you like to guess what kind of issues these might be? Okay, I'm gonna guess that there was a big group dinner and this community eats exclusively vegan or there's like some some very specific dietary thing and someone uses butter as a special treat to make a dessert and everyone likes it once they find out it's butter the two camps the schism cracks open a little bit this is a great guess the first

problem is dishes. Ooh, yeah. Dishes are always a problem. Even if you have one roommate, dishes can be a problem, right? Like who's trying to do them? Who did a bad job? Who put this in the wrong place?

Who used the wrong detergent? So this is like the first saga that Gladys experiences. The second is about a big family meal, so you were right on that. Let's go. Dishes and then the thing that creates the dishes. Yes, exactly. So they have this big family Sunday meal every week.

Everybody has a role, right? And like, some people are on cooking, some people are on acquiring the food, some people are on the dishes, they're having a problem. Duncan is on obtaining food. That's his committee. The most important role. Yes. But every single week,

Duncan brings mushrooms that he foraged at the amount varies from week to week. So some weeks he brings one mushroom and some weeks he brings 60 mushrooms. See, this would not be a problem if it was just to sort of when the land provides we shall eat, not like I was only able to find one oyster and then a bunch of these just cruddy little ones. And so we're having mushrooms who flay no matter what. Yeah. The other problem

is that the people in the commune have learned kind of the hard way not to trust Duncan's judgment. Oh no. I mean I'm a mushroom guy. You are. And you ideally do not have to learn these lessons the hard way but like a lot of prize-delectable edible mushrooms have poisonous little likes. Some that can kill you, some that can just like ruin your week. And you basically, like as a rule, you basically never want to eat anything that you are less than 100% certain about ideing. And I would apply that even further where you don't eat anything with a poisonous liqueur like. And it sounds like Duncan has not learned this despite poisoning his remits.

Yes, exactly. So no matter how many mushrooms, Duncan finds, people do not eat them. They just sit on the table, like, unloved. And this seems like the kind of situation where food waste is frowned upon. Yes, it's also the kind of situation where some people, Tammy, don like Dungan is helping.

They're like he's gone all day. He comes back and be- He's indulging his little mushroom. What's he doing? What mushroom? What mushroom? Yes. She's like this is it helping with dinner. It's like okay you have 30 mouths to feed and he just goes on. He's just galvanced around with his little sack with his little mushroom feed and he just goes on. He's just galvanced around this little sack with his little mushroom knife. And he like very slowly, he's like making little tick tocks of him like

adding the tops of the skulls. And then he comes back and he's like, I have eight things that may be poor Chinese or maybe you'll make yours a filling in your toes for a week. Yeah, yeah. Look, enjoy better. And Tommy's like you were supposed to go to the grocery store, right? And like get tomatoes, right? Or whatever. How do you think they should handle this? I mean, this is sort of the problem.

The problem in the opportunity of decentralized decision-making structures is that like, you know, the flaw that a lot of people point to is that when there's something like this where if you had a leader, they could just go like go like say Duncan stop doing this. But because the decisions seem to flow through communal measures I guess it can be slower. But what they need to do is find whatever group has that decision hammer and swing it in Bob Duncan on the head. I like I like that idea that is not what they do. What they do is everyone is just annoyed about this. But okay. Peace is delicate, right? And so the people in this community are like,

this is not a big enough deal for us to fight him on it. The only person who's truly mad about it is Tammy, and she refuses to confront him. So it's just like a bad situation. If you're living in this communal type situation, much like defector, it only works if you communicate like about these things before Little resentments grow into larger structural things and so

Someone's got to grab that he needs to be popped agree the problem is no one bobs him and so there's like kind of a Base level of annoyance at Duncan that exists across like almost everyone. Is it just Duncan specifically? Yes. Where is it like his wing of the party? Okay. It's Duncan. Wow.

So maybe this is why Gladys had such a bad time on the first day because this little Nerduel poncho have her with this beautiful, beautiful hair. Yes. Just kind of soured the vibe first. And he's in charge of vibes. Yes. And he's in charge of vibes. Yes, he's in charge of vibes, not great. All right, we're plotting a coup, Duncan. I'm sorry.

So this community has like a weekly meeting in addition to their weekly dinner, right? About six months after Gladys joins, Duncan stands up at the meeting and is like, I have a proposal to bring to the group. It's winter solstice by now. Basically, yes. The proposal he has is that he wants to grow mealworms so that they can feed the mealworms to the chickens. And he's like, there's also a lot of stuff coming out about how you can use mealworms as like an alternative protein source. And like, this would be a sustainable way for us to do that and he's like I would like

to do this. This is his proposal to the people of the community. What do you think? I think if I if I I would say Duncan you got yourself a deal with one compromise. You are now off food sourcing because you people should be able to opt in to eating mealworms. And I worry that you will just put all this dedication into your worm project, neglect your vibes project, which you're doing a bad job of anyway, and just kind of keep making weird food without anyone to tell you I'm not gonna eat worms

in poisonous mushrooms for dinner. The people of the coop are like, what does it cost? How expensive is it? What are the downsides? And Duncan's like, well, the real downside is that I would need fish tanks with lights to store the mealworms in. And because the worms need like consistent warmth and low light, the only place that is big enough to store them would be the dining room. So I would need to

audio medium. You can't just shake your head. That there's a red, there's a red flag right there. Just imagine, imagine you're having some nice, like a nice, you know, like a, a carib cake. It's the density of like a brick you would build a house out of. And you go break maybe. And you're sitting around and you're hanging out with your cross generational family

and someone's like, hey, can you pass me the salt and it's over your left shoulder, but instead you reach over your right shoulder and you tap on the tank and then like 50 worms just kind of start reading and reacting to your touch and then all of a sudden that that carob cake looks a little less appealing. Gladys does it like immediately see a problem with this, but the people of the co-op immediately freak out. And Gladys is like, why? You don't would like everyone clearly

know something that you don't know. She's like, why is everyone freaking out? She's like, it seems fine. If Duncan's gonna do it himself, this will at least get him distracted from the mushrooms. And this would be actually useful. And Tammy tells Gladys about some past trauma that the group has had. I cannot wait to hear it this. The past trauma is that in the past, someone lived in the community brought a proposal and said they wanted to get frogs. And everyone was like, great idea. And so they got frogs, but they had to feed the frogs,

like grubs. And if the frogs did eat all the grubs, then they grew up into beetles. And so then there were just like a ton of beetles everywhere. And like, you know, the body keeps the score. So the people are like, panicking, the commune keeps the score. They're like panicking. They're like, we cannot,

there's still beetles everywhere. Like we cannot have this. And the thing about the desert is there's not water. And the thing about bugs is they love water. And the thing about a commune is you have them, you've established a spatial monopoly on the water. And so the result of this is beetles all up in your business.

Yes. Also, why do they want frogs? I don't know. That's not it. I don't know. This is a great detail. And so Gladys is kind of like, well, do I defend Duncan? Who is technically my buddy and who also I think doesn't really have that bad of an idea?

People are just projecting their past Beatles trauma onto his mealworms. Hmm. I think it's worth, that's a trauma worth projecting in this specific way. I think the knives are coming out for Duncan. I'm sorry, buddy. Gladys is like, I don't think it's a bad idea. And she like kind of stands up for Duncan And she's like, Duncan needs a hobby, basically. And she's like, let Duncan have his stupid being mealworms. Like, this is the first

thing I'm taking a stand on. Please. And so eating bugs worked for the citizens on the snow pierce or train. It can work for you. Exactly. And Gladys is like, okay, this is like, I'm going to defend him. She defends him. and everyone's like, okay, fine. They like, do their vote and nobody completely disagrees to the point, everyone can live with it. So it's like, fine. He may have his mealworms. They're like, how much money do you need for the mealworms?

And Duncan's like, oh, great news. I don't need any money for the mealworms because I picked up six fish tanks filled with mealworms off a Facebook marketplace this morning. I had to take all six. This is great. We've been talking about group communication. And I feel like one of the important things there

is to ask permission, not forgiveness. It's not like one of those types of scenarios. And not, I don't know, I just feel like I'm already wearing the plan and I'd be more wearing if he was like good because it's already happening. I would not like that. It is true that like if you have a boss, you should just do whatever you want without asking, but when you are in a community where everyone operates on the same level, that's disrespectful in rude.

I do respect his ingenuity. My partner is a big time Facebook Marketplace person. She finds incredible deals. We love Facebook Marketplace. This is a feather in Duncan's cap. I mean, the specifics know, but the general is yes. Yes, and nobody is thrilled about the fact that he was basically asking for forgiveness, but everyone is thrilled about the fact that he got them for free. So they're like, that's kind of fine.

Also, good timing, I will say, just because chickens produce way fewer eggs in the winter. Yes. And more reliable food, more reliable food for everyone. Exactly. So everyone's kind of in on it, except that your prediction is correct and they are kind of gross. And like when everyone eats family meal now, there are just like a bunch of glass containers with like worms in them. Family meal worms. Family meal worms. Every week, there are so many more worms. There's like rapid worm growth.

And Duncan to his credit is doing a really good job. Like he's keeping a careful log of like when they're fed. He's taking them all out and cleaning their bedding and putting them all back in cleaning their bedding and putting them all back in. For a second, I thought you were going to say he was taking them on walks. I tied them all up to floss. Which is a really, really cute image until I googled mealworm just now.

What did you see? I saw a YouTube thumbnail that appeared to be someone holding a fish towards a tank full of mealworms and I command W instantly. Okay, that's gone. We won't think about it anymore. Okay, they're just like infinite mealworms. And Duncan is feeding them to the chickens every day, right? He's taking them out there. It's winter as you said. So this is like very good timing. The hints are like over the course of a couple of weeks of eating the mealworms, getting like very glossy and like a little touchy. Just get care.

Yeah, well. The, their yolks are like orange. Mm. Everyone is happy. Everyone is like, wow, Duncan has made the chicken's happy. Duncan has not created chaos. We love it. Yeah, you doubted the man who gave you all gastro

and intestinal distress because he couldn't tell a russula from whatever the thing you can eat that looks like a russula is. Gideon don't get mad at me. Exactly. They did doubt him. And they were wrong. He's doing a really good job. And after like two months, dunking stands up at the group meeting and And he's like, I just want to thank everyone, especially

Gladys for believing in me and like allowing me to have these mealworms. They're going really well. And he's like, I'm more than happy to keep doing them myself. But there are so many of them. Okay, does he, if they expanded it like they all, I'm just imagining the communal area now is like, you know, you have to have your legs up really high because under every chair is like a mealworm aquarium. And like, if the conversation stops for a second, you can hear this low just like, yeah, that's exactly right.

Kind of smells crazy in there. And you're like, this is the best egg I've ever had, but at what cost? Yes. So Duncan is basically like, I would like for the eco team to help me clean the mealworm tanks and feed them to the chickens and like their chores. Okay. This is a sensible proposal. You think so? In theory.

Okay. There are a lot of ways this could be wrong because I mean, as this community already knows, like you don't want a repeat of beetle gate. No, you don't. Everyone is like, this seems fine. Like, it doesn't seem that hard. We'll figure it out.

The only person who's like even hesitant is Tammy, and that's only because Tammy thinks the worms are in practice. She's like, they're disgusting. In theory, I like them. Fair enough. Honestly, that's one of the great parts of communal living, is you can get in where you fit in. You don't have to handle those worms if you don't want to.

And Tammy's like, I can't do it. I won't do it. And everyone's like, that's fine. You can just swap your shift with someone else. Perfect. She's like, I can't do it. I won't do it. And everyone's like, that's fine. Like, you can just swap your shift with someone else, right? Perfect. She's like, okay, fine. I vote yes. We will help him with the mealworms.

Perfect. Great. The worms are fine for like three more months. The chickens have never looked better. There are so many worms that Duncan is like making mealworm cookies, which apparently tastes fine enough that the kids like them. So like sure.

I mean, they think carrot is a treat. So you know, this is a great point. Their palates are primed for mealworms. And Gladys has been here for like a year at this point? Not quite. Like ten months. But she's like, she's settling in, you know. Very much.

Yeah. She's feeling it. She loves her community now. I was very stressed for her making this change and having this bad first impression. So it warms my heart to hear things are going better. Yeah, it's nice. But then one day at dinner, Tammy is like,

don't the worms look weird? Uh oh, uh oh. And Duncan's like, they don't look weird. You just hate the worms. Like you never look at them. You like need to consider your biases against worms. Like the worms are fine. Wow, okay. Strong words from Duncan. The worms are not fine. You were okay. The next week, the worms are like turning black. Some of them are turning black. They're looking very weird. Are they haunted? Is this the turn of a ghost story? No. Are they evil? Maybe. It's unclear. They are

beginning to smell worse. They're smelling like moldy fish. Like they're smelling like death. Okay. Are these the type of worms that turn into animals with wings? I don't think so. I don't think so. Okay, so they're just gonna turn into sludge, basically. Is what's happening here. They're liquefying, gross. And at this point, is Duncan still just like,

it's fine, they do this. Duncan is now concerned. Duncan is like, my worms are sick. I hate when that happens. A classic problem. But now there's, so now at our group meeting that week, we have a question which is like, what do you do with the smelly, dying worms? A smell that I'm assuming everyone is actively being presented with and assaulted by as they're

having this meeting like, I mean, here's the circle of life. My friend, it's time to get yourself some frogs. You're creating chaos. You're like, bring the frogs back. We'll have a beetle apocalypse. It'll rule. But see, here's the thing, you know, life's all about cycles.

Occasionally, you'll find these moments of equilibrium between the bugs and the frogs, where like things will be perfect. You'll be eating beautiful yolks. Your frogs will be performing little circus acts, which I assume is the reason you bought them in the first place. You're training them up well because they're on a good diet. And then eventually, you know,

think equilibrium will get out of whack. The bad times will return. And then, you know, Duncan'll find someone to of whack, the bad times will return, and then, you know, Duncan'll find someone to solve the problem. It's fine. I think this is like when they're having those debates about whether wolves should be brought into national parks to kill moose.

And it's like, well, how many wolves like four? Is that enough? I was recently in New Zealand, where they have like a huge invasive species problem. Uh-oh. It's basically just because these dipshit colonizers New Zealand where they have like a huge invasive species problem. It's basically just because these dipshit colonizers brought like a couple stotes and little mammals with them. And then like, it's like a shiny little tube-shaped mammal that just eats birds and

bird eggs. And all the birds there, they're like no native mammals. And so the birds are all just kind of stupid little goofy guys who walk around. And so if you go on hikes, like every 10 feet, there's these little boxes with like traps for stoves. And just they're trying to get them. Because they're trying to get them, yeah. So I'm very familiar with this.

The strama of bringing frogs into either your dying, or the invasive species out of your control kind of situation. So I don't know why I'm recommending it, I guess, is my point. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a good recommendation based on all the antichodes that have been shared. The thing you need to know about the community is that they make decisions based on what's called sociocracy. Oh, yeah, I'm familiar.

Please, go ahead. Well, I only know that it's like an alternative decision making framework. I'm mostly familiar because one of the goats who lived on the farm was named Sociocracy. Nobody knows what goat you're talking about. On the commune slash farm area that I lived in, I was also briefly responsible for hurting the goats. And their names followed an alphabetical system. Okay.

And the S1 was Sociocracy. And one of the people there was really into it. And I wish I understood more of how it worked. But it's like kind of social, the like you vote on stuff, I'm guessing, with theocracy part. Yeah. The part you need to understand for this conversation is that everybody doesn't have to agree, but nobody can firmly disagree. So like, it doesn't have to be your first choice, but you must have unanimous approval. It has to be a choice that everyone can live with. Okay. So at the meeting this week, there are two camps. As always. As always. One of them is like, I like the worms. They feed the chicken, their cheap source of protein with minimal eco impact, and if everyone simply ate these worms, the whole world would have enough protein.

The second camp is like the worms are becoming like a weird fermented mealworm juice, and it smells really bad. And I think that that's gross. And so I think we need to get rid of them. My sympathy is certainly lie with the ladder camp because I think if you're just trying to poke holes in either's arguments, it smells crazy in here and our community space is unlivable.

It's a way stronger thing than like when I cut into my side using the side of my fork and my egg yolk this morning, this beautiful golden hue made me feel things like. Yes. You gotta make some compromises. Yes. So this fight takes hours,

hours and hours, and finally they get to the point where everyone is like, I can live with no more mealworms, right? Like that's the decision I can live with. And that includes Duncan, right? Duncan is crying. That's the decision I can live with. And that includes Duncan. Duncan is crying. He's like, it's fine. I'm sad that my mealworms are all dying,

but I can live with this decision. I just have one question, which is, how are you going to get rid of them? Well, it's a good thing we've already solved that one. Call up your frog guy. Get some frogs in there. I guess you just put the, open the aquarium tanks and put them in the chicken pan and then.

Okay, interesting. Nobody had thought about this, right? Everyone was so focused on like, are we gonna get rid of the mealworms or not? That no one had considered now that we've decided to get rid of them, what are we gonna do? I guess you can't feed them to the chickens because they're probably gross, right?

Yes, because they are sick. I will give you an option and you tell me why you think it will or will not work. Okay. Compost to the mealworms. They might eat all the compost and then you have no more compost, but you do have even more ravenous, more disgusting worms. Correct. That one will not work. Release the mealworms into the wild. Remember those beetles? They're back in their reverse. Yes, exactly. They're squishier. This will not work. Flush the mealworms down the toilet. No, that's their toilet now.

At some point, like the worst creatures you've ever seen. Feed the mealworms to the chickens. No, your chickens are now haunted. Put the mealworms into big trash bags and throw them away. What? No, come on. They're they're they have movement abilities still. They're going to get out of them. Kill them. Yes. Okay, you want to kill them. Yeah, I'm sorry. They got to go. You think that it's time to kill them. They're they're all dying. And presumably the how of this is not all that difficult because if there's 30 plus people and there's these very serious camps, surely some of them have such a hatred for these mealworms that even at communica, what's the name of that? That's close enough.

Even in this Esperanto community, they're like, I can fix this, just like give me five minutes and like a boot and there's problems going away. Mm-hmm. Now I have to ask you some questions that were raised at the meeting and they are, do worms have souls? Can worms feel pain? Will this cause them harm?

Does this make you a murderer? If you kill 5,000 mealworms, what are the ethics here? Well, I see this is when you need, just this is where the committee structure works. You need to have your insect cosmology and spirituality committee meet, decide these answers and whatever they say goes because that's how the committee structure works.

You trust these people to make these decisions. You trust them, you know, if exorcisms need to be performed before or if that's more harmful to perform them because if you're killing devilworms that's less ethically dubious, I think what you need to do is just, yeah, call up a, call up your bug people, let them handle this. Yeah, you're right. So what happens here is because this is a complicated question that people are not capable of answering Immediately it is deferred to a committee the committee is whichever one is in charge of like ethics

Yeah, the insect spirituality ad hoc subcommittee. Yes, and what the committee does is they find some material to circulate And I am sending you the link now. Can you click on this for me? Reducing-suffering.org slash kill-bugs-humainly. I'm so excited. Okay, should I read this or? Can you just read the top section

and then the table of contents? Oh wow, I just, this is good. While I generally avoid killing healthy insects, I often find injured, I actually just say, like we're laughing about this because, you know, it's silly, but like, I do appreciate that people have taken the time to think through this thoroughly. Like, you know, I, human and in relationships

are very serious and I think so much of it isn't just one direction of like inflicting pain. And so I do appreciate someone taking the time to think this through. That said, this page describes the two methods that I used to kill bugs with as little pain as possible. One, through crushing against rough paper and two, freezing, which is perhaps less advisable if thorough crushing is feasible. I welcome more research and options on euthanasia techniques. It's not completely clear to me if

euthanizing dying bugs is more humane than leaving them to die on their own. For example, I worry that when crushing bugs in the little pieces, there's a small chance the animal's tiny brain might remain somewhat intact in one of those pieces. I'd like to find out more about this concern. Contents. Summary. Introduction. Why I worry about incomplete crushing. Method one. Immediate thorough crushing. Method two. Freezing parentheses. Probably less advisable. Shredding. Question mark. Wanted. A humane bug killing device. Sub bullet. Caviar's on the calculation. Footnotes. Wow. That is, this is a hell of a document. I'm putting this into a word counter. Right now, because I just,

I got to know, this is 5,672 words. That's longer than I will say anything I've ever written. And that's how you know written. I respect this blogger. I respect this blogger. It's thorough. Yeah. This is a good blogger right here, exactly. Okay. So the ethics committee sends this document around. They then have a meeting about the document that is open and they bring options. Each of these options has a pro and a con. The first option is soak the mealworms in alcohol. Okay. The pro here is that it

might have an anesthetic effect, which could be ethical. I buy, yeah, this is a good argument. The con is that alcohol comes in plastic bottles, which we don't love. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a way to square this, but not a good one, which is you simply create a moonshine still. And in six months or over a long it takes to still enough moonshine to kill all these bugs. But they're just, you have bugs soup at that point anyway. So that's not a realistic. And they're smelly. Yeah. The next option brought by the committee is to freeze them. Which You're putting them in closer proximity to all your food and as this blogger has taught us freezing as less ideal when crushing as readily available and crushing as all what's

readily available. Yes, the benefit of freezing is that it's like a little more hands-off way of killing, so it's not as morally dubious in some ways. And two, so that's the pro that you could freeze them and it's clean. The con is that mealworms have come back to life after being frozen. You told me there were no ghosts in this story. They are haunted. They're haunted. Imagine feeding the chickens like a bunch of reanimated millworms there. They're powers. I mean You'd have to deal with them eventually because they would grow sentient and unionized to try to destroy you

But like for a couple weeks there their abilities and powers would be pretty incredible I will see yeah The third option is smush them with your hands. Yes best option. You like that one. Yeah, it's efficient But it's also yucky. It is yucky, but you know, this is like not that different from literally you got to break a few eggs to make an omelette. Like you got to break a few creating creatures to make the thing that you have to break

to then make an omelette. Well, the last option is burn them. That's all. I'm assuming they can survive that too, if they can survive freezing. They cannot that we know of. The benefit of the burning is that the people of the committee have thought that it might be nice. It's like a kind of ceremonial aspect. We already, this is already a community with some real tensions around fires, and surely if you meld that with like insect ethics,

that you're just gonna have to form way too many subcommittees to deal with all the entangled problems. What, which of these options do you want? You know, if the alcohol thing is feasible in an ecologically responsible way, then doing that and then crushing them, but I'm sorry, this hammer that we refuse to bop Duncan with is being used to smush these worms. No. You're smushin' them. But the thing is, I haven't read this whole document,

and maybe if I read this, I would just turn seven to word blog. I would then think that the best solution is to like fund research towards a humane bug killing device and then sitting with my bugs for another seven years till it hits the consumer marketplace. So maybe it's good I haven't read this document. What happens is at the meeting they vote, this not work, they anguish. And it's just smelling worse with everything you know.

It's smelling worse and worse. The next week people come up and give little speeches. It's a whole the next week. Yes, it has been two weeks and the bugs really makes it smells crazy in there. Oh, this is nasty. These are see, at some point you need a mafric. You need someone who, in the middle of the night, is just gonna smush the bugs in like the 50 minutes it takes in the next morning, whatever, and it's like, where's the bugs, that person could be like,

oh no! Oh no! Oh no! Well, at least we don't have this problem anymore who wants some carrot cake. Would you do that? Yeah, I think I'm the type of person who would do that. You would, you would smush all these bugs with your hands.

Not with my hands, with my feet, probably. Oh, it's efficient. Okay. Although, I mean, if there's a lot then you need to change shoes a few times, but I think I could get it done. You could do it. Yeah. Okay, so as we've been over, the way that you make decisions is you have to come to a place that everyone can live with. Sociocracy.

Sociocracy. The decision they come to is they will freeze the worms for two weeks. Okay. Long enough to weed out the bad ones and select for those with magical powers. Hopefully. And then they will burn them. Okay. This is a logically coherent plan. Tell me why. You are trying to reduce their suffering, which I think, which I honestly, I mean, they've read the paper presumably and I commend that and you know, I do, I do,

I think everyone will feel better than a decision that everyone has at least consented to. And for as slow as they worked, this will minimize resentments going after because if I went crunch crunch mode on those bugs then the next day Duncan would feel horrible and I would have to lie to him and then it would be- Long term resentment, that's no good.

Which this community clearly has none of already, so we don't want to bring too much of your sitting in there. Exactly, okay. So they vote on this. Everyone is like, yes, freeze all the bugs, put them in a bonfire, whatever, that's re-agree. But as soon as they voted on this, someone from the CCC is like, just, just want to give a heads-up on this decision that the next bonfire will be the summer solstice.

No, no, so all the new people, they'll be like, oh, I love nature and the Esperanto language and um, things that are supposed to take like chocolate and don't. Why are there all these little screams and then these new people who are like excited and vulnerable to try out this community you're like okay so the ethics of bug souls as it relates to freezing so yes so what do you do it you finally reached a consensus I guess now I'm having to consider this sort of the bulk geometry, like are there enough mealworms that it would be like noticeable within the three to the, oh, certainly, yes.

Can you just not, can you just like have a fire in like another day? Is that possible? No. You know what? I think you gotta do it. I think I forget, it was a previous guest on normal gossip said that a way to make friends with people is just say the weirdest thing that pops in your head when you meet

them. And I think that's a really great way to like, to sort of just find out like, is this going to work or not? And if you're the type of commune that is going to burn bugs at the stake and be honest about it and take this decision so thoroughly. In the spirit of radical transparency, these normies are gonna have to find out the hard way.

We are at the very end of the story and they choose to do it. They have to put all of the mealworms into those like silicon ice cube trays into the chest frasers. I'm just imagining like a sad like like a movie trailer style like mournful cover of like a sad pop song. Like a breakup song or something like the Johnny Cash version of hurt or something. Yeah. Playing as just like Duncan weeping with his beautiful hair flowing somehow despite being in the freezer is just like scooping his tiny little friends black worms stinky

they decide that since you know they're like we don't want to hide who we are from the new people they decide to have an end of life ceremony for the worst at the bonfire end of life ceremony for the worst at the bonfire. To thank them for their service. I think I've really come around on these people. You know they're so dedicated to their principles that I just I respect it. Yeah and you know I guess the like moral here is that that did work right? Okay, I was gonna ask, there are no, this worm problem did not persist. No, we are at the end. How do you feel, who side are you on?

I feel like I really, like, I feel emotionally a worn out. Yeah. That was a way more like, more involved story than I expected just the thinking about the ethics of this like mass warm killing and Massacre even I I think I just I'm so foregrounded in like Gladys' feelings and I want her to like Really feel like this next step was like this rewarding lovely journey. I want this like psychedelic this process this psychedelic step

You know off the diving board. I want this like psychedelic this process this psychedelic step, you know off the diving board I want her to feel like this was like a good choice for her life and I'm imagining her sitting here one year later looking at this bonfire and I'm wondering what she's thinking I'm hoping she thinks these are my people and those were my worms and they're in hell now. Are they belong? That's basically what she's thinking. She's like, she's like, you know, this was very weird and stressful. She's like, but the community worked the way

it was supposed to, right? Like, she took some time, but everyone is satisfied with the worms going to their fiery death. She got what she wanted and was it stinky? Yes, but like one year later, you know, the sun has gone through its solstice cycle and on the longest day of the year, she's sitting at this horrifically destructive bonfire

and just thinking, okay, this is what I signed up for. Yeah, and Gladys has now been there for many years. And she is very happy on her commune and she has grown very used to all of these like little dramas playing out. I love it. Would you like the final update? I would, I will pass an adent

just like a little. Another thought I have is like, I really think life, and this is, I guess gets back to to gossip as a thing. I think life is just way more enjoyable and has a much richer texture if there's just a sort of a baseline of acceptable, low stakes drama in your life. That you can gossip about, that you can experience, that you can like work through your feelings through. And so I think I think Gladys isn't a good place. Yeah, the goal of a healthy community isn't no conflict.

It's conflict resolution in which everyone feels like they were heard, right? Yeah, like don't you just feel sort of spiritually rung out in like a good way after you sort of go through one of these warm killing ethics takes for eight hours in a rapidly-putrifying room? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

A little dizzy. A little dizzy. Lightly fermented. There is one thing, though. And the thing is that there's something that happened, which is that a few weeks after the summer solstice, Duncan came to Gladys and was like, Gladys, can I talk to you about something?

Why can't I face? I have a prediction, but I don't want to say it. And Gladys is like, what? And Duncan has all of his little log books, right? Of like all the cleanings and all the feedings. And he's like, pointing, right? At the week before everything went awry, and he's like, it was Tammy's shift.

Oh shit, she poisoned the worms. Do you think she poisoned the worms? That, I mean, that seems to be the conclusion that he's drawing. Duncan thinks she did. Oh, Tammy, I mean, that's devious. That's devious because if you're going to do that, like if you're going to take that step, you have to be prepared to dig that mass grave

and get on your worm's question boots. And it sounds like Tammy, maybe she was spoke up in the meetings, but that's, you can't, see now I'm fully sociocracy-pilled. I'm like, you should not have done that without going through nine committee votes. Sorry. What, what do you think the four and against Tammy doing mass

worm sabotage are? I don't, I'm trying to, I'm struggling to make a four, I guess the four cases like it's weird in there. And that's, I sympathize with her to a certain degree. The against case is that things are good. Those eggs, like it's like an egg commercial. The chickens are great. They're almost as luscious as Duncan's hair.

Like, things are good. Duncan's happy. He has a purpose. He's no longer poisoning you fungley. Like the against case is pretty strong. I gotta say, did she poison them? If we don't know. This is, this is your final. What would you do is that your glattis,

Duncan has brought you this evidence. I defend my friend. I see you do. Yeah, I think what's done is done. You know, presumably if we're still close throughout all this, like there haven't been other signs that she is like doing more active sabotage because it sounds

like the worm thing. She was like pretty strongly against and it seems isolated enough. I think I'm riding with my friend. I think I say, you know, there's no way to know what happened, but also like we got it, we got to move on. Like the summer solstice just happened. That's presumably a time of renewal. And so in that sort of lunar solar, I guess, spirit, we have to cleanse ourselves. And Duncan would be like, what? That's calm you live in, baby. Gladys is like Duncan. If she did it, could you live with the decision that was made afterward? Like did this play out in a way that you still would have been satisfied with if she did

do it? And Duncan's like, well, yeah, I mean, that's the way it was always going to play out. And Gladys is like, okay, then the only part of that that's missing is how you interact with Tammy. So do you want to confront Tammy about this? And Duncan is like, no. Gladys is such a good communicator. So we still don't know. Which is beautiful. That's a satisfying, I'm very, I'm satisfied by this ending. Oh good. Glad. My prediction earlier when I gasped was like, when Duncan comes to Gladys, I had assumed he would be like, Gladys, I have a confession to make,

and then takes her to his cabin where there's an aquarium set up with her at first. He was like, you know, there's pictures still so good. It's my quality. I did that. Wow, I wish. Patrick, thank you so much for coming on Normal Gossip. It was a treat to have you. Oh, thank you. This is so much fun. Thank you for having me.

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