Normal Gossip - Forbidden Feline Fanfiction with Ashley Reese

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Welcome to season SEVEN of Normal Gossip! We're starting off the season strong with Ashley Reese and a story about a smutty fanfiction community. Check out Ashley on Twitter and Instagram. Episode transcript here.  Pre-order Kelsey's book, YOU DIDN'T HEAR THIS FROM ME, here!Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Kelsey and Alex, blog recommendations, and bonus secrets!You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com.Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP.Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs), Ozzy Llinas Goodman (@ozzy_llinas), and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira). Abigail Segel (@AbigailSegel) is our intern. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Credits read by Ginger Hollander. Show art by Tara Jacoby.Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.

Hello, it's Kelsey McKinney. If you're a longtime listener of Radiotopia, you may know that we had a podcast that ran from 2016 to 2020 discussing every episode of the show, The West Wing. I am so excited to tell you The West Wing Weekly is back. Joshua Molina, who started The West Wing as Will Bailey, and Rishi Keshe Hereway, creator and host of Song Exploder, have reunited this election season for the West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest because watching and discussing art about politics can be a way to get perspective on what's happening in the world right now. And sometimes you just have to turn off the news and turn to fiction while sharpening your mind on the whetstone of political conversation.

Each week, Josh and Rishi talk about a different political film with the same mix of analysis and humor that made the West Wing Weekly a hit. The slate ranges from classics to modern day masterpieces like Dr. Strangelove, Network, and Judas and the Black Messiah. They're starting with The American President, the film written by Aaron Sorkin that would eventually lead to the creation of the West Wing. Join the conversation and the political film fest by subscribing to The West Wing Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to the season premiere of Normal Gossip. We are so happy to be back. I am Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an I'm so excited to have with me today Ashley Reese. I'm going to read your bio now. Ashley Reese is a Los Angeles born New York based writer who has spent most of her career reporting about politics, entertainment, and her own sex life. You've probably seen people yelling at her on Twitter. Her work can be found in New York magazine, Jezebel, Essence, Teen Vogue, and more.

She recently launched Bad Brain, a newsletter about life, death, pop culture, and the internet. She's writing a memoir documenting her journey from 25-year-old Virgin to 33-year-old widow for Atria Books, an imprint of Simon & Schuster. Ashley, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

We're so excited to have you here. I'm ready to gossip. Oh, great, because that's what we're going to do. We're both you and I children of the internet. We love to be online. Where does posting turn into gossip? I think that now so much of the gossip is in the subtweet. Some of the best gossip I get is in the group chat. And it's like seeking something you saw online, putting it in the group chat and being like, and I honestly think that more people should do that.

Too many people put things on main. Like put the messy, like, I'm just like, what you do, you take a screenshot or a link, drop it in the group chat and then talk shit. Yeah, I also think part of like the art, if you will, of being a shit talker is knowing where to place it. Right? Because like, if you are shit talking on main in public where other

people can see it, you open yourself up to criticism. Like if I want to shit talk, I don't want criticism. I want to be in a beautiful echo chamber of my friends who all dislike this person we're texting about. Like that's the whole point. I agree with you. But I also think that now we're in this time where like people don't have much sense, but they really want attention. So I think that's how you get into, I think TikTok gossip is a whole other level of how you kind of, it's because it's one thing

to be on Twitter and be at least semi-anonymous or just kind of be a random kind of bitchy person online. But with TikTok, you have your face, maybe people can very easily find your government name. Yeah. No, I think about this a lot, that there's something about gossiping, particularly on TikTok, where it's like you are essentially standing in front of a microphone to share this gossip. Yeah, it's a little more town crier. You know what I mean? It's a little bit more that instead of just like you're with your girls with a small group chatting, or even like the brevity

that is required of a tweet. You know, when you're doing a little drive-by talk shit, then you're like, and people are like, -"Whoa, who's this about?" -"Oh, drive-by?" Yeah, you know, and I've done that. I probably did that the other day and had people be like, -"Girl, who is this about?" -"Yeah." And I'm like, let me tell you.

Um, but like, when you're doing it on TikTok, you have girls going on for like three minutes. I'm just kind of like, are you doing it for love of the game? Are you doing it to get attention? You know what I mean? Okay, I think that that is actually like we've reached what my actual problem with it is, right? Which is that like it is about love of the game, right? Like I'm like, if you're a gossip for the love of the game, you don't need attention. You don't get views. You just need laugh. You need your friends laugh. And that is the love of the game. Yeah. I was told that you might have brought a gossip for me. Is that true? Oh, I sure do. Can I have it? Yeah. Okay. So I have a friend. We've

been friends for several years now. She generally dates women, generally attracted to women, for as long as I've known her. And so it was to my great surprise when she told me that she was dating a man. And I was like, oh, okay, like, you know, it's the 2020s. Like, you know, you can do what you want. And I'm like, Oh, okay, interesting. Like, tell me more. So she tells me about this guy. And you know, what do you want to be encouraging to a friend? You don't want to be like, yeah, so I try to do that. She mentioned that he's vegan, which is not against the law. That's fine. Many services.

People are vegan. People are vegan and that's fine. My friend is not vegan. Okay. But then she told me that he required that she brush her teeth before kissing him. What? Excuse me? Yeah. Because she eats animal products and he doesn't. And he felt dirty, I guess, having her kiss him without having her teeth brushed first. And I guess this is something that she was willing to compromise on, but she didn't feel great about it.

And I'm just like, okay, girl, do you? It is what it is. One day he invites her over to stay the night. She finds out by going to his apartment, that he lives in a roach-infested apartment. And I, when I say roach-infested, I mean, they were in bed, and there was a roach in the bed.

No, no. No, no, no. She went to shower. She reaches for the soap. There's a roach on the soap. She looks up at the ceiling. There are roaches on the ceiling. No, girl, you gotta get out, get out, run. And you wanna know why there are roaches in the house?

I'm scared. Is it because he values life so much? Is that why? He refuses to kill the roachers. He believes in the dignity of all creatures, big and small, including disgusting roaches. And this was a pickle for him because on the one hand, he was aware that this was, you know, not great. Yes.

But not to the point of actually, like, getting an exterminator or getting some fucking raid. Doing anything about it. And inviting a girl over to stay the night in your roach-infested apartment. Uh... So from then on, she didn't go over there. She invited him over to hers instead.

Yeah, obviously. Right, but I was always just like, what if he brings something to your place? What if he traces in like a roach egg or something like on his shoes or on his clothes? Right, are bed bugs also a form of life that we have to respect in this scenario? Right, well, I would love to hear his take on that.

But then, he invites her over for a party. And she is a little apprehensive about this because, you know, there was a roach in their bed. But I think he said that he like promised to clean, he promised to like kind of straighten things up. He's like, I know the bugs are an issue. Like, we're gonna clean, it's gonna be fine. And my friend is a trusting person and... Oh, no, girl. Party night. She gets there, she brings some muffins and like some Prosecco or something.

No, it's nice of her to bring the roaches and snacks. Yeah. Funny that you say that. No! Fuck. and do something else, chat to chat. Yeah. She looks back, like a minute later,

swarming with roaches. The Prosecco bottle she brought, swarming with roaches. Just covered, like, like, just like, you know, just scattered, like here, here, there, there, just like... But you know, I'm actually not sure if the Prosecco bottle being covered in roaches was before or after he, her boyfriend went into the dishwasher, opened it, tried to get a glass out of it for her, roaches in the, in the, in the dish, like in the little, like crevices, you know, crevices of it, opened the fridge, there was a roach.

No! Okay, like, I'm trying to like wrap my mind around being in a room like this, because like, I feel like the way that people respond to roaches is visceral and loud often. People are shrieking when there are roaches around. So I'm like, how are people just hanging out at this party? I think a lot of people are also high. My friend wasn't. I imagined it. Yeah.

I don't know. Maybe they were just really chill about it. Was my friend like, I imagined it? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe they were just like really chill about it. I mean, look, every single vegan I know would think this is a acceptable way to live. They would like, you know, even if they felt some sort of sympathy for it, they would just be like, this is a health hazard, which it is. My friend spent the night sitting outside like on his porch to get away from the bugs. It was winter.

The thing is, if a bug is outside with you, that's fine. You're in their house now. Yeah. That's allowed. But I don't need to be inside with all the roaches. When you're also going outside in New York City to escape pests, that's an issue. That's a really, really bad fucking sign, man.

That's an issue. That's a really, really bad fucking sign, man. So, on the plus side, she... There's no longer with this person. Okay, great. She dates women again. This is definitely something that would probably put someone off. They're like, yeah, I don't know why I did that. But the less good thing about that is that she's still stayed with him for another five months after this.

Also, like, I'm sorry to, this is so gross, but I'm like, imagine brushing your teeth in this apartment because your boyfriend won't let you kiss him unless you've brushed your teeth and his toothbrushes are just out on the counter in this home of roaches. Like I'm like, Roach House girl. I really, I really hope he learned. I hope that he is in a better place to, wait, he's so lucky. Yeah. I hope that he's in a better mental play, mental space to decide that this is actually

a priority and that's like peak scaring the homes. I also hope that he has found a way to control the roaches that does not make him upset. There has to be a way. Yes. Right. I'm sure there is. I'm sure if you Google it with Reddit on the end, you will find something. You will find lots of stuff.

Wow. Thank you for bringing me this terrifying roach boy gossip. It was disgusting and I did not like it. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. It's beautiful. Do you want to hear the gossip that I have special picked for you? Of course I do. It is the early 2010s, and our friend a friend, we're going to call her Victoria. Victoria has just graduated from high school. She's thrilled. In some ways though, graduating from high school is bad because like two of her best friends have already left her hometown. And so she's like, I'm stuck here at home

in my parents' house, I feel like an adult, but I'm not yet, and I'm like desperate to leave. Not a girl, not yet a woman. Exactly, yeah. And she's like, I'm gonna get to leave, right? In the fall, I'm going to college, but like for this one summer, I'm stuck here with no friends. She's like, but in some ways, graduating from high school

and my friends being gone is actually fine because as a present for graduating, her parents got her her own laptop. Uh-oh. Why are you saying uh-oh already? Laptops aren't uh-oh. I mean, they're not in general unless you're a chaos agent in which they can be a big uh-oh.

And Victoria is an internet girly. Like she spent most of her preteen years glued to the family computer, listening to that terrible sound as it connects to the internet so that she could log on to AIM and message her crushes. She spent all of her weekend hours messaging, setting up away messages with meanings. But now she's a little older. She's a little more mature. She's like, am I a little different now?

She's like, I don't want to get onto AIM and just like message all these dummies I went to high school with. I don't want to get onto Facebook Messenger and message all these dummies I went to high school with. Like I want to imagine a bigger world. I want to discover aspects of myself. I want to form a community. She's like, I want to be creative.

She wants to write fan fiction. Yes! Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. You go, girl. You go, girl. A girl with my own heart. I love it. Can you tell the listeners a little bit

about your history with fan fiction? Oh, my history with fan fiction is that I started reading fan fiction when I was, god, probably like, maybe sixth, seventh grade, like middle school, in the early 2000s. I wrote a lot of different fandoms, fan fiction, but my main fandom of choice was Harry Potter. And let me just say, fast forwarding like 20 years

after getting involved, almost 20 years after getting involved in that, some of my best friends, and the most important people who I know in my life, I have met from fan fiction, not in the 2000s, but literally in the last four years. Like, I'm literally planning a trip to Crete with one of my girlies who I met through fan fiction.

Another one who's fan fiction that I read who I'm obsessed with. Like we talk, I'm not joking, every single day she was over here. I went over to her. Yeah, it's kind of like a part of my life that like I say that I don't really talk, I don't like to talk to civilians about it, because it's just like the girls who get it, get it. And the girls who don't, I don't want to have to, I don't like to explain myself too much about that. Totally. Yeah. And I've also written lots of fan fiction. Do I have a giant Google Doc full of like, big stuff

that I just haven't published yet? Maybe. Who's to say? Whose business is that? Do I want to maybe get that out of the way before my actual book publishes, before my actual memoir? Yes. But anyway, streets will know what I published. Oh my God. Okay. All fan fiction has an object of its desire, right? So most major franchises

have a fan fiction community. Famously, 50 Shades of Grey was Twilight fan fiction, right? But there's also fan fiction for tons of other like smaller franchises that aren't Twilight size. Right? There's like fan fiction for the Mighty Ducks. You know, the ice is cold, but the hearts are warm. Yeah, no, I literally read like Ed and Eddie fan fiction. Yeah, exactly. And Victoria is like, I want to have fun, right? I want to be passionate about the thing I'm writing fan fiction about. And I want to have a depth of knowledge. Period. Which is why she picks the young adult book series Warriors, also known as Warrior Cats. Yes, wait. Do you know about Warrior Cats? Literally, someone actually meant, so I didn't read it growing up or anything, but someone

actually mentioned this to me recently. I think it may be one of my friends who's a librarian mentioned this. But people love those books. People have like, people love books about, you know, animals, warrior animals, cats, people love, definitely love cats. So yeah, to continue with this story, you do need to know some things about warrior cats. So I'm going to go through some things that I think are important. Okay. This book series began publishing in 2003. It is about anthropomorphic feral cats. There are like 50 of these books now and they are still being published. Something I thought was fun when I was researching this is that the creator of this series, her name is Victoria Holmes, and a publisher came to her and they were like, Victoria, we think

a great idea is to write a bunch of books about feral cats. And she said, I don't know that there's enough material about feral cats. I don't know that I'm that interested in them. Here is a quote from an interview, quote, but to make the story interesting for me personally, parentheses, because as most of you know, I'm not the greatest cat fan in the world, in parentheses, I put loads of extra stuff into the storyline, like war, politics, revenge, doomed love,

and religious conflict. Hell yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You gotta make it juicy. You gotta make the cat life juicy. Yeah, one of the most common plots in Warrior Cats is forbidden love. I don't know if I wanna imagine like cats like being intimate. This is also a problem that I have with this series,

but you know what? No judgment. Go off whatever you like. Okay, some other things you should know about the series is that the Warrior Cats are like divided into clans based on the terrain in which they live. So like wind clan, thunder clan, river clan, etc. And all the clans are hierarchical. And that hierarchy extends to naming conventions. So important cats have important names. Okay, like what is an important cat name?

Thank you for asking. It's like the most important cat name is in like star. So it's like a suffix situation. I see. OK. Mm-hmm. And the warrior cat's universe also has a religion. And the religion is called the star clan, which is where dead warrior cat ancestors go,

and they can communicate via dream and omen. And they live in a paradise forest, which is basically heaven. But warrior cats also has a hell called the place of no stars, where the spirits of bad cats go. Oh my god, that's crazy. the bad cats go. Oh my God, that's crazy. Warrior Cats fan fiction is like incredibly popular on fanfiction.net. There are only five bigger communities than warriors and they are Harry Potter, Twilight, Percy Jackson, Lord of the Rings and Hunger Games. And after those five is Warriors. That is Warriors? You're kidding me. Yes. No. Okay. I have so many questions, but keep it going. Keep it going.

Victoria begins reading. She's like, what I'm going to do is I'm going to read first before I write. So she reads all of these stories that exist already. And she's noticing that people are doing the kind of fan fiction where you create your exist already. And she's noticing that, like, people are doing the kind of fan fiction where, like, you create your own character, and then what's happening and what she's noticing is that these characters are then showing up in other people's fan fictions, right? So, like, I write a fan fiction,

and I include your character in mine. It's like, I would call that fanon. It's like kind of like, it's like a canon that the fans create. I have a lot of feelings about that in a fandom that I am in. Harry Potter fandom, Rodger, it's fine. It's happening a lot more than it used to and it drives me nuts. But I want to know what Victoria thinks about this.

Okay, Victoria's reading it and she's like, I love this. She's like, I love that people's characters are showing up. It's like, to give a modern example, it's like when one of your friends, Animal Crossing characters comes to your island, right? Like, oh my God, this is thrilling. She loves this. She begins writing like day and night. She gives her character a beautiful name. She names her cat Baby Moon. Baby Moon. She's like, I love my cat Babymoon. And she writes her first story about Babymoon, who is not her, who is a cat. Babymoon is all alone. All of Babymoon's friends have abandoned her and she's stuck in a place where she can't thrive.

Oh, but it's not a self-insert? Got it. Uh-uh, it's not a self-insert. Babymoon is different. And also Babymoon is so beautiful, but she doesn't know it. She has dreams that are so much bigger than this small town. Oh my god. She's like a pop punk song. Can't fan fiction be a way to process your own life? Yes, it actually is. I'm so serious. My friend and I talk about this all the time. We're like, we're processing our trauma through these like dead characters. Like, so that's why self inserts as much as they're like,

ugh, and like so cringe, there makes so much sense. Cause if you're not doing it through a self insert, you're kind of putting your own trauma through another established character. Yes. So for Victoria, she's like, baby moon is my best friend. Baby moon is me.

Baby moon is helping. Oh my God, baby moon. She publishes her first story about baby moon and she's like, Babymoon is helping. Oh my god, Babymoon. She publishes her first story about Babymoon and she's like, I'm so proud. Oh no. The next morning she has a private message on this platform and the message is from someone named Howling Star. Victoria clicks, this person's like username, right? And Howling Star has more than a hundred stories.

And her character is in so many stories. Like Howlingstar is an important warrior cat. Oh my god. Okay. And Howlingstar is like, I read your story. It's super good. I really think it's great. You have so much like possibility. I really think you could be really good. But you clearly did not read the rules of this community. What? Please read them as soon as possible."

And she links. Victoria's like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. All I want is to be part of this community and now I have fucked up immediately. She goes to the rules and she's like, okay, let's see. And the rules are like, you know, like no using other people's characters without permission. She's like, okay, I didn't do that. The rules are like no plagiarism. She's like, okay, I didn't do that. The rules are like no plagiarism. She's like, great, I didn't do that. The rules are like no members of the council can date other members of the community. She's like, I don't even know what that means.

But like midway down, she sees this like rule and it reads all new characters for the warrior cats community must contain a full story arc. It does not matter if you are a long time poster or a newbie. All new characters must start with the last part of their name as Paw. What? Oh my god, so because of the hierarchy thing? Oh, you gotta be kidding me. What?

She like started off too high up on the rankings. It's like until you are granted your warrior name, you must use PAW and the council decides on all promotions. Who is the council these random girls decided they're on the council. I hate this. I hate this. What is going on the warrior community? Victoria is like, Oh my god, this is so bad. Like I named myself baby moon instead of baby paw. I have stolen valor. I am canceled. She's like, this is awful. And she's also upset because she's like, I've read all of these books. Like I should have known better. She's like, how could I have done this?

So she has like six hearts on this original story. But you have broken a rule. Do you delete and republish? She shouldn't have to take anything down. That's insane. Like who died and made you the king? Right. Who made this council?

Like, I've never heard of such a thing. She's like, okay, now that I know how the ranking system works, I'm going to take this down. I'm going to replace Baby Moon with Baby Paw, and I'm going to repost. She does this and a lot of people with their official warrior cat names are commenting. They're like, this is so good. Like, we love it. Victoria's like, hell yeah. She keeps writing. She's writing every day for like three weeks. She's so committed. Howling Star keeps like sliding into her messages with each of these stories. And soon Victoria learns that this girl's name is Kristen. Okay. So what did Kristen, what is Kristen saying?

Kristen's whole deal is that she's like a senior in college, and to Victoria, she's like unbelievably cool. And Kristen is like, generally, like, I'm sorry to bring our trauma as writers into this, but Kristen is like queen of feedback, right? Like, she's always like, I have a few notes. Oh, my God, no, I... Oh, look, anyone who's done fan fiction knows about this kind of reviewer who was just like, maybe they mean well, but every single thing they have to say is like, here's what you could

have done better. Here's how I would have liked it more. I hate people like that. Yes. Kristin Sliding in like, great start here. Like, I see what you're trying to do, right? Like, do you want to hop on the phone, right? Like, this you want to hop on the phone? Right? Like this whole thing. And like Victoria, because she's 18 is like, oh my God, this girl cares about

me so much, like she wants me to get better. Oh my God. So she's like, I'm going to try my absolute best. And she's also like being a little politically savvy here because she's like, you know, Kristen is on the council. Yeah. She can like elevate her. Kristen controls when I get my warrior cat name and I want my warrior cat name so badly.

The best edit that Kristen gives her is that Kristen is like, the thing is baby paw doesn't have a lot of her personality. Like baby paw needs to have a more defining trait. And Victoria is like, that's a great note. She's like, my idea is baby paw is baby. Like baby paw is dumb like a baby. That's her character trait. And so like her warrior cat baby paw is always up to like so many antics.

Like she's so dumb. She makes the dumbest errors. Like that's her whole thing. Oh my God. And the other writers love this because they're like, this is a really clear character who I can use to advance plot in my stories. thing. And the other writers love this because they're like, this is a really clear character who I can use to advance plot in my stories. So they're like, can we use Babypaw in our stories? And she's like, yes. And Babypaw is like the dumbest warrior cat alive.

Part of me is like, okay, that is a distinct personality. Part of me is almost like, oh my God, stand up, Babypaw, like have some self respect. Babypaw, for me, is a distinct personality. But part of me is almost like, oh my God, stand up, baby paw. Like have some self respect. Baby paw, for me, known as baby moon. Like, wow. One day she gets a message from Kristen, and Kristen is like, the council really likes you. Like, we really like your work. She's like, I was wondering if we could add you

to the inner circle. What? So soon? And Victoria is like, it's only been like six weeks. And she's also disappointed because she really wanted her warrior cat to be like promoted. Right. So she's like, I don't want to be added to the inner circle. I want to be baby moaning. So she's like, this is fine. Sure. Whatever. Add me to the inner circle. And she's like, but like, what is it? Like, what's going on in the inner circle? And basically what like, but like, what is it? Like what's going on in the inner circle?

And basically what the inner circle is, is it's like a group chat. Of course. And Kristin is like, oh, like the inner circle is like the reigning authority on Warrior Cat fanfic. And like the inner circle controls who gets their Warrior Cat name and when. And the inner council like gives feedback on ongoing

plots. And like sometimes we co write stories together. Oh my god. Victoria is like, I'm so thrilled to be in the inner circle. Thank you so much. She's welcomed by everyone. Everyone's so happy to have her but immediately she's like laser focused on one person. And that's because this person is cute, and his name is Jordan. Oh, a guy. Okay. Is it easy for you to get a crush? Hmm. Okay, so I think that fandom spaces

have so largely been like women and women dominated, and I feel like I get surprised whenever I see a man in these spaces. And so for me, I wasn't crushing on nobody, because I'm straight. But you kind of... You've hit on something that I think is important here, which is that most fan fiction communities are like all women.

Yes, largely women. And largely women. And this community is largely women and Jordan. largely women, and this community is largely women and Jordan. Who's straight, not gay. Like Jordan's straight. Yeah, he's straight. And like that means that Jordan is like catnip to this community. Oh, my God, yeah.

They're like, he writes poetry, he writes fan fiction, he listens to soft boy music. Like, he's always asking people how they really are. Oh, my God, but now that I'm like, not like 18, I'm really like, red flag. I'm like, I'm like, oh, soft. His tumblr is really cool. No, red flag, red flag, red flag. Victoria is like a lonely 18 year old on the cusp of going to college, right? Like she's involved in her childhood fandom. This is like too easy. Jordan comes to her a couple weeks later

and is like, can I put baby paw in one of my stories? Stop. Oh my god. That's like asking someone out. And she's like, oh my god, this is so romantic. Like, yes, you can. His cat is named Moth Nose. Moth Nose? Moth Nose. So nose as a suffix is like... No, he has another suffix, like river or something. The first name is Moth Nose. That's one word. Oh my God. Okay, okay, moth nose. Yeah, so for him to put Babypaw in his story, obviously they have to chat about it.

They have to chat about it all the time. They're chatting constantly about how Babypaw might respond, about like what Babypaw might like. Oh my god, yes, these scenarios. Suddenly they're chatting about everything, right? Like he's telling her the things he dislikes about his university, right? She's like telling him about her fears, right? Chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. And also, I mean, just pointing out like these kind of like fandom friendships and interactions

they get pretty intimate pretty quickly. Like, it kind of in a way that even my like IRL friends like, there are things that like I will so much sooner tell to a girl who I met three weeks ago through fan fiction. Then I would tell to someone who's like one of my nearest dearest friends who I've known for like 10 years, you know, like your nearest dearest friends are listening to this getting pitchforks to go to your house. Like, what the fuck are you telling them? I'm so sorry, guys. There's some shit that you just do not know. Yes. So the intimacy is high.

And Jordan one day is like, oh my God, should we co-write a story? Oh my God, that's like asking someone to have sex. Yeah, like, is this a date? Like, does this count as a date? Yeah. Oh my God. I like how firmly you're like, yes, that's a date. Yeah, like, no, that is like, that's intimate.

Do you try and make your cats kiss in the story that you're co-writing? How do cats even kiss? I'm getting upset. I really hate animal stories. I am not charmed by them at all. I'm just like, I cannot imagine. Look, no offense to my own cat, but like...

I don't want to kiss the cat. I don't want to think about cats making out. But yeah, I guess if I was trying to impress this Tumblr soft boy who wanted to have our cats in a store together, yeah, they're gonna fucking make out. So the thing is, Victoria's like, I don't think I can make them make out because my cat, Baby Paw, is still an apprentice.

So that's like an age gap discourse in terms of experience as a cat that like I don't wanna get myself involved in. Oh my God, she didn't wanna get canceled. Yeah, so she asks Jordan and Jordan's like, oh yeah, that makes like sense to me. That's like, he's like, we can still make it very cute. Like we can still make them like kind of falling

for each other and the forbiddenness will, like, make it better. Oh, my God. She finishes the draft, and he, like, sends her edits back, and he's like, I had an idea. What if they didn't kiss, but they had a signal to show each other that they loved each other? That wasn't kissing. Okay, I would've, like, folded if I was her.

If, like, a cute guy was like, I want our characters to show that they love each other that wasn't kissing. Okay, I would have like folded if I was her. It's like a cute guy was like, I want our characters to show that they love each other without showing it. I'd be like, oh, we're getting married now. Okay. Victoria's like, oh my God, is he proposing? We are married now, just so you know. She's like, well, what did you have in mind? And he's like, well, what if baby paw and moth nose would like tell each other they loved each other

by like using their little paws? You know how like a cat will need like a blanket? Yeah, yeah. Like that. Like they would need like each other or near each other or. Yes.

And Victoria's like, I think you're genius. And I think that's a great idea. Oh, my God. They publish the story and people love it. They love that there's no kissing. They love the kneading. Because there's sexual tension. Yes.

Yes. And the kneading, like, makes its way into other stories. Because people are like, yes. Victoria moves into her dorm in August. She's still obsessed with warrior cats, but like, she's also obsessed with Jordan. She's going to parties, she's meeting people and then late at night, she's like logging on to like do her little Warrior Cats, right? Oh, yeah, I know. I know that balance. I know that song and dance. It's beautiful to have a second shift.

Yes, no, it was literally me in college. It's just like going out and then coming home to talk about a certain fandom. Yeah. It is the early 2010s. Do you change your Facebook status to it's complicated if you're in love with a man on warrior cats forum who still calls you baby bots? Yo, at that point, if we're in the needing stage already for a minute, I don't know if it's complicated. There's something there. There's something there, man.

Yeah. Victoria is also delusional. So she's like, yes, I love him. She sets her Facebook status to it's complicated. She really does that? Over the course of the year, they're chatting, chatting, chatting. She starts submitting some stories to Kristin because she's like, I just want your feedback

like before these publish. And Kristin keeps sending these back and being like, ma'am, this is smut. Like, this is not like, you gotta trim this girl. Like, this is not what this community is about. Like, what does that mean? What does warrior, did you find out in your research? Did you find out what that looks like?

I don't want to talk about it. Oh my god. No. And Kristin is also like, also you're still an apprentice. Know your place. You're still baby paw. Yeah, kind of know your place. And Victoria is like, well, when am I going to be promoted? And Kristen is like, don't worry, like, I'm going to get you promoted at the six when you hit your six month mark, which is like the earliest I can get you promoted. And Victoria

is like, okay. In November, Kristen comes back and is like, we did it. We upgraded you. You are being promoted. Oh my god, the council spoke. The council has ruled that she can become Baby Moon again. Wow. That's a big promotion. I know. And Victoria is honored because she's like, I'm so happy that you remembered that Baby

Moon was the name that I wanted. Okay, but wait, but then like, is the guy's cat on her level now? Yes. Oh. Now they're on the same level. Uh-oh. Uh-oh, indeed. Jordan sends her a mixed CD to celebrate. Stop it.

She's like, now I'm not an apprentice. Now there's no more age gap. She's like, I want to write, I want to co-write a horny story. No, not the horny cats. So she's talking to Jordan over DM one day and she's like, I have something to ask you. And he's like do you want him to go first? Oh my God. I want him to go first. Victoria wants Jordan to go first.

She's like, okay, you go first. And he's like, okay, but it's like a little embarrassing. And Victoria's like, oh my god, no, it's not. I'm sure it's not embarrassing. Her heart is like thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, right? And Jordan's like, okay, so it's like kind of personal. And Victoria's like, okay, what is it? Like, let's go. Jordan's like, okay, there's like some gossip going around. And Victoria's like, what? Her heart is sinking, right? She's like, what gossip?

And Jordan's like, there's gossip that someone is leaving the warrior cats community and a position is opening on the council. Wow. And Victoria's like, okay, I don't really understand what this has to do with us. Right. She's like, that's not a question.

And Jordan's like, well, I wanted to ask if you would be willing to help me get elected for that seat. And Victoria's like, that is not the question I wanted him to ask me. Right. I want to be like, do you want to go to Pound Town and explore your cat fan fiction? We want to take our cats into Pound Town and create smut. Right. You're talking about politics?

I'm talking about fucking. Yeah, yes. Do you see another problem here? Hmm. Let me see. Do you remember the rules? Oh, there's no relationships allowed between... Oh.

Members of the council cannot date members of the community. Oh my God. But what about... Is she not in the council yet? I thought she was in the council. She's in the inner circle. Oh, but she's not on the council. She's not on the council.

Wow. Okay. So to promote Jordan into the council is to promote your crush yet again into a forbidden place. No! So she can't do it. Or she doesn't want to. You're not going to do it.

What do you think? I mean, do you let the ones you love go? It's like, if you love them, let them go. It is kind of like that. But if it was me, I would try to convince him not to do it just so that we could have a relationship. I'd be like a little bit conniving. Oh, Victoria is not conniving.

Victoria is like, I'm going to tell him that I'll help him and that I'll decide later what I'm going to do. So she's like, Oh my god, great. Love that for you. Totally no problem. Because her feelings are also like hurt, right? Because she thought that they were talking about something else that they were not talking about, which is being in love. Right. Jordan at this point is like, What was your question for me? He's like, he's just down to business. She's like, when will death come? Right? Like, this is not what I want. She's like, he's just down to business. She's like, when will death come? Right? Like, this is not what I want. Can our cats fuck?

She's like, I just wanted to see if you wanted to co-write a new story. And he's like, oh my god, yeah, I'd love to do that. But she's like, I can't tell him it's about fucking anymore. I feel weird. Oh no. Couple days pass, Kristen beaches out and is like, I'm just doing a straw poll. Do you know who you're going to vote for? Do you tell her you're going to vote for Jordan?

Maybe, only if I don't think that Kristin suspects something is going on between us. Yes. So Victoria is like, I don't think Kristin has any suspicions. She's like, I've been thinking about voting Jordan. And Kristin's like, oh, that's really interesting. That's like a really good idea. He'd be great, good instincts. And Victoria's like, oh, that's really interesting. That's like a really good idea. Like he'd be great, good instincts. And Victoria's like, thank you so much. She's like, I love Kristen's approval almost as much as I love Jordan. Right.

So Victoria votes for him. And of course he wins. Oh my God. So now their love is yet again, a beloved plot of Warrior Cats in that it is forbidden. Oh my God. This is just, she can't win. When will baby Moon win. When will

baby moon win? When is it baby moon's turn to be happy? Right. Exactly. They're still chatting every single day, telling each other what they eat for dinner, what the weather is like, how their classes are. This is intimate. Yes. In the spring, the inner circle decides that they should all meet up IRL. And they're calling this jokingly KittyCon. I mean, look, I can't knock down meeting fanfiction friends IRL because I've done it several times. Many times I was literally at a wedding recently of a friend who I know primarily people like, Oh, how'd you guys know each other? I say live drill. We were in a we were in a fucking role playing game in 2010. Like, she admitted. Yeah, exactly. So like, I'm not against it. The name chop, but like, everything else, the concept. Yeah,

sure. Like, hang on. I love meeting fandom friends in person. Yeah. And it's like, for Victoria, she's like, it's a summer between my freshman and sophomore year. Like, famously a bad summer because you've like tasted the freedom of college and then been forced to regress. And she's like, I have some work study money. Like it's totally worth it to buy a ticket for this 10 hour Greyhound to get to where Kristen lives.

Okay, see, I think like a long travel, that's something that I feel like I had to work up to. But hey, I guess I, look, you have the opportunity. Okay, why not take the 10-hour grayhound? Yeah, Victoria's also like, finally, I'll meet Jordan in person. Oh, my God. Like, this is huge for me.

The time comes, she boards the bus, she gets, they're going to where Kristin lives. And this is because like Kristin is a senior in college and so she has like off campus housing. Okay. So they're going to her city so they can stay at her place. Wow. Okay. Victoria is like so nervous. She's like, what if they don't think I'm cute IRL? What if they don't like me? Like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They meet at a board game cafe. Okay, chop. Jordan, dance up to hug her to greet her. And she's like, oh my god, he's taller than I thought. Because they know what each other looks like at this point. I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah. But he's taller. You don't even see them in person. Yeah. And she's like, oh my god, he's taller than I thought. Because they know what each other looks like at this point, I'm guessing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he's taller. You don't even see him in person. Yeah. And she's like, he's so cute. And then he like, he doesn't sit next to her, but he like looks at her a lot. Oh, no. What do you think about this? Oh, he has, he definitely has a crush on her.

Or at least just wants to, Let me not. There's something going on. Mm-hmm. After the games, they all go back to Kristin's house. The girls are all staying there, obviously. Jordan is gonna sleep somewhere else, because he's the only boy. I was about to say, where is he gonna go? Yeah. He's hanging out late. He's sitting next to her. He keeps like telling her how excited he is to see her. But he's also telling everyone else that he's really excited to see them. And so she's like, hmm. And like when people are talking, it's like clear that people know things about him that she doesn't know.

Oh, so she's like, excuse me. Oh, and then he's like, do you want a seltzer? I'm going to go get a seltzer out of the fridge. And Victoria's like, yeah, of course I want a seltzer. And then she watches him walk to the kitchen. She's like, he's so cute. He's so tall. And then she watches as he's like passing Kristen, who's getting more snacks that he like uses his little hands like their paws and he like needs her shoulder on the way

by. No, not needing. No. Oh, no. He hasn't needed anyone else that day, has he? Nuh-uh. No, he has not. Yo. No, I'd be heartbroken. Victoria is watching all night, right? Like now she's on high alert. She's paying close attention and she notices that like he's always touching Kristen when he passes. And like, he knows where things in Kristen's apartment are. No, okay, it's a wrap.

It's a wrap. And she's like, I have never been filled with more envy and more anger in my entire life. She's like, Kristen has everything I want. She has star status. She's an editor. She's dating Jordan. Like this is terrible. Oh my God.

You have also, you're Victoria, you have also noticed that he's like flirty with everyone. Do you tell the others? That he and Kristen are together? Oh, I would definitely ask like, hey, do you know if any of... Like, I would act like I don't care at all. I'd be like, hey, is there something going on between Jordan and Kristin? I'd act like I did not care while I was, like, dying inside, like, wanting to cry, because you just drove...

Like, imagine being in a greyhound for ten hours, thinking that you're gonna have some intimate one-on-one time with, like, the guy that you've been, fantasizing about doing like kitty smut with for like a year. Yes, months. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Victoria is like, here I go, right? I'm young, I'm petty, I'm about to start asking some fucking questions. So she's like, does anybody know like if Jordan has a girlfriend? Like are he and Kristen together? And everyone's like, girl, we don't Jordan has a girlfriend, like are he and Kristin together? And everyone's like, girl, we don't know what you're talking about. Like, I don't think so. Doesn't seem like Jordan has a girlfriend. Like he talks to everyone all the time. And she's like, I don't know, I like saw something in the kitchen. I saw him like need her shoulder. And they're both on the high council. Wait, are they allowed to be together if they're

both in the high council. Wait, are they allowed to be together if they're both in the high council? Okay, really good question. Theoretically, yes, but he wasn't on the high council until she elected him then. Oh, there's also a problem here, which is that the other girls in this group have conflated Victoria with babypaw. And so they're like, babypaw, you're so dumb. Oh, my God. No, they're like, we love you so much. But like, it's very clear from your stories that you're like in love with Jordan. And like, everyone knows that. Oh my God, they clocked her. And they're like, we get it. You're jealous, but like, you don't need to like project things on to Kristin. Stop. And she's like, Oh my God, I'm not projecting.

Like, I'm not, I swear to you, I like saw these things and they're all like, okay, like we love you, but you got a content. They're gaslighting her. They're gaslighting her. You're now betrayed by your crush and your idol, both of them. What do you do after this weekend is over?

I don't know. I feel like maybe the stories might change a little bit. I don't know if I want to collab as much. I don't know, unless I know the truth. Yeah. Victoria is like, you know, she gets home, she's disillusioned by the Warrior Cats community. She's like, people are gaslighting me. I'm being lied to. She's like stewing. And she decides, you know, if all of these girls think that I'm in love with Jordan because of my stories, then that means that like, they also think that they're telling on themselves and their stories. So I'm going to go back and read all these stories and see what I can figure out. So she's reading everyone's stories, like back into the past before she got there. And she's realizing that, like, at different times,

Mothnose has been in everyone's stories. Oh, my God! He's like the Phantom Bicycle. Oh, no! And all of the stories, like, revolve around his character. They are getting played. These girls are getting played by... What? Mothnose? Mothnose. Oh,oth nose. Oh my god. Oh no. Maybe they were sitting, maybe they're acting like that because they've been played in the past.

Okay. So this is what Victoria thinks. And she's like DMing them and she's like, okay, girlies, are we all acting like this because we've all been played? Like, is this the John Tucker must die scenario? Like, what is going on? And all the girls are like, oh no, I don't really like feel like I've been played. It's just like, that's kind of how like the stories like got edited when he helped us edit them. Da da da da. Come on, no.

And Victoria's like, okay. But she's also like, huh, if Jordan is dating Kristen and Kristen is famously an editor, is Kristen not just editing everyone's story, like providing notes to make everyone's character be in love with Jordan? She's like, oh my God, have I been like edited into this crutch? Oh my God, wait, is Kristen like the puppet master?

She's like, is Kristen the puppet master? She's like, oh my God. And she starts trying to like remember what it is she liked about Jordan. Right? She's like, what is it that I liked? And she's like, oh, you know what I really liked? I really liked his poetry. And so she like goes to his Tumblr, she's like reading his poems and she's like, these

are so bad. Like I was wearing the like rose, rose-colored glasses of Crush, and these are, like, they do not make any sense. Oh, my gosh, didn't like his soft-boy poems after all. Didn't like his soft-boy poems after all. And also, she's like, these are just, like, not good. Like, he's not a good writer. She's like, so how is it that he was, like, co-writing stories with me?

Right. Was it Kristen all along? It was fucking Kristen all along. Wait, so they were in cahoots? They were in cahoots. Stop. You have now been betrayed. Like emphatically betrayed.

On every level. On every level. Oh my God. What do you do? This is when I would probably talk to someone who I've befriended in that fandom, who was not none of those people, and would start talking some shit

and being like, asking them what I should do. Because I don't think the people in the council are to be trusted. They didn't believe her before. They didn't know when they were being manipulated. They thought that this was just, oh, Babymoon's stupid. Like, no, Babymoon is smart, actually. You guys are stupid. No, I wouldn't trust any of them. She's been betrayed left, right, and center. No, I think I would be so disillusioned that I would like dip, unless I just really loved warrior cats that much. Victoria is like, fuck the council. Fuck Jordan. Fuck Kristen. Like, I'm going out in a blaze

of glory. Like, she's like, I am gonna write a fanfiction to get me through this. That's what I'm talking about. And she writes a fanfiction where Baby Moon has a crush. And the crush is a new warrior cat named like, you know, something stupid paw. Yeah. And something stupid paw is a poet. And she gives something stupid paw in this in this story, all of Jordan's bad poetry. Like the actual like verbatim.

The actual verbatim poems that he has like sent her. Oh my god. And she's like, this is gonna get him, right? Like she's like written this like fuck boy warrior cat character. Oh my god. She publishes this at a time when like she knows Kristen is busy. And so like it can be up for a while without anyone commenting on it. Oh my god. And everyone in the Warrior Cats community is like,

Baby Moon, this is such a good story for real. Like, the fuckboy character is great. His poems are so bad. Like, you're such a good writer. How did you even write this bad of poems? Like, you're a genius. Oh, my God. Wait, I love that for her, but I feel like she's gonna suffer the consequences.

It is like the most popular thing she's ever written. And she's getting like a ton of credit for putting herself at the head of this terrible poet. And so now she's like, now is the time to appear as God did to Saul and be like, the scales must fall from your eyes, right? Like the bad poet is Jordan. He can't write. These are his poems. And not his stories. And not his stories. And the scales fall from the warrior cat girl's eyes.

And they're all like, oh my God. And they're also catching on to something that you caught on to, which is like, were they dating before the council? Listen. At this point, the warrior cat girls, not including Kristen, have a quorum. And together as a quorum, they decide that they're going to initiate an investigation. And the way they're going to do this is they're're gonna call in a third party person to investigate

this and the person they call in. Oh my god like a Robert Mueller. Literally they're like, they're like, who is an investigator in the Twilight community? They're gonna bring them over here and they're gonna figure this out. Stop. Not getting someone from Twilight community. Stop it. They bring someone from Twilight over.

The Twilight girl is like interviewing everyone. She's trying to figure shit out, but she's also like, why is your community like for virgins? Like, why can't people date? That's kind of that is kind of crazy. Yeah. And all the warrior cat girls are like, oh my God, that's a great point. Like, why can't people date? Like, this doesn't make any sense. Not the Twilight Girl being like, y'all are prudes. Yes, the Twilight Girl's like, come on, man. Like, this is fine, actually. Wow.

The Twilight Girl does eventually find out and reveal that Kristen was dating Jordan before he was on the council. Oh my god. So that's strike one. But what the Twilight Girl also finds out is that Kristen has been preferential editing everyone's stories to make Jordan look good. Yo, what kind of relationship is this? I don't know. I know the warrior cats girlies were doing it like this, The drama, the intrigue. We are almost at the very end. Whose side are you on?

How do you feel? Do you think there's a moral here? I respect our girl, Victoria, for being like, if I'm gonna go out, I'm going out in a blaze of glory and having everyone end up on her side. Yes. I love that. But I also worry that she's gonna, I'm worried that she's gonna get like blowback from this. Is she gonna get kicked out? Like, I don't know. I'm worried about our girl. I do have some final updates for you. Which is that Kristen and Jordan co

wrote a story that sent both of their cats to the land of no stars. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, they sent themselves? Correct. What kind of self-flagellation is this? So they killed themselves in the story? Yes. And sent themselves to cat hell. No, wait, this is so funny. It's so funny. Oh my god, I want them to, I hope they're married. this is so funny. It's so funny. Oh my God.

I want them to, I hope they're married. I hope so too. I don't know what happened to them. No one gave me an update on that, which is upsetting. Oh my God. After they left, everyone was like, the council is dumb. The rules are dumb. We're not doing that anymore.

We're just going to go back to writing regular fan fiction, like regular people. Hell yeah. As it should be. Which meant Victoria could promote herself to star. So she was thrilled about that. Oh my god. And after she graduated college, she was like, Okay, I don't have time for this anymore. Like, I'm not doing this anymore. But like five years after she graduated from college, like kind of recently, she was at a party. And she was like talking to someone about the early internet. And this person was like, Oh my God, I used to be in this fan fiction community

that had this whole drama, because two of the moderators were dating, but then this girl wrote an iconic story about how the head moderator's boyfriend was a terrible poet. And then he got run out of the community, and the Twilight fan fiction people talked about it for years. Oh, my God, so it must have been Laura.

Do you admit to this random stranger that it was you? Yes, immediately. I immediately say that that was me. But that's me. Like, that's, that's, and they're not a civilian because they know some shit. I would be like, that was me. If you pull off a heist, you should get credit for it. So Victoria is like, yeah, it was me. Oh my god, that is the perfect, perfect ending. It's so beautiful. No notes.

Wow, great. Do you have any final thoughts or feelings? Well, I mean, go Victoria. This was so true that you really do put a bit of yourself into the stories you write, and this worked to her advantage to get some revenge, and I appreciate that. But you know what? She lucked out. It has a happy ending. It goes so easily. There are so many of these girls who try to go on a power trip when they have any amount

of power in these little communities, getting the action role playing. This was a great, great, ugh, love this ending for her. Ashley, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a delight to have you. Thank you for having me, and this was the perfect story for me, thank you. Oh my God, of course. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com, or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend

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show art. Thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandi Jensen, Sabrina Impler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Rado, David Roth, Katherine Hsu, Jasper Wang, Israel Deremola, and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff, Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radio-topia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Ginger Hollander, and remember, you did not hear this from me.