Normal Gossip - Is Mythology Just Gossip? With Liv Albert

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

Liv Albert joins us to ponder the age-old question: follow your dreams, or follow the money? Liv is the host of the podcast Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! and the author of the books Greek Mythology and Nectar of the Gods. PSA: This is the fourth of ten episodes this season! Get your tickets to the Normal Gossip live tour here. Follow Liv on IG @livalbert. You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jae Towle Vieira is our production assistant. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Credits recorded by Czarina de la Torre

Alex, do you think that we should tell them our little secret? I think we should. Our secret is that we are going on tour this summer. Woo! We're going to be sharing a new gossip story with you all, but this time live on a stage. There will be special guests and glow sticks and games. It's going to be so messy. You can get tickets at normalgossiplive.com.

And bring your secrets. Because we're going to read them. Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip, I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am thrilled today to welcome Liv Albert to the show, an absolute joy for me personally. Liv is the host and creator of the podcast, Let's Talk About Myths Baby, and author of the book's Greek mythology handbook and nectar of the gods, Liv, welcome to Normal Gossip.

Thank you for having me. I am so excited. Oh my god, I'm so excited. And I do. I really want to talk about myths in depth. I have many questions for you, but first, can you tell me what your personal relationship with gossip is like? I've thought a lot about this in advance of the recording.

Okay, great. I've put a lot of thought into it. And I think that, so a number of years ago, I left an office job for the last time. And I think the number one thing I miss is the gossip that inherently comes with just being in an office. And also, I worked in an office that was primarily women, and there was just so much gossip. It was so good. And I think that now I don't have a great outlet for gossip in my life, and I miss it.

But I actively enjoy it, and I'm sure this will come up. But I do think that Greek mythology is also just gossip from the ancient world. And I will die on that hill. Fine. We can transition in the myths immediately because, okay, this is like, I was so excited to have you on because last year I read Gilgamesh and like, please stay with me. I was like, this fucking bro, like these two bros are just like, do they want to kiss on the mouth?

Like what's going on in this epic story? It kind of like messed up my ability to think about oral storytelling because I was like, it feels to me like there's this kind of continuum that starts with gossip and it's like, gossip, oral storytelling, myth, lore, like it's like there's just this kind of like gradient. And I don't really know where the lines are. So I'd love to hear if you think this is insane, what your feelings on it are. No, I absolutely think it's all gossip and also like mythology, at least in Greek mythology, which is what I know.

So that's kind of what I'm talking about. But mythology is like inherently almost the same as oral storytelling because at least in ancient Greece, like all of the myths we have today started out as oral storytelling and like eventually somebody wrote them down and then they survived for us today. But also the survival process means that like, I mean, so basically like say the Odyssey or the Iliad, you know, ancient Greece's version of Gilgamesh, there's also a lot of dudes, do they want to kiss? Yes, particularly the Iliad.

But like, so it like originally started out and then for say 300 years, it was just told orally, which means that like it got changed every time because countless different poets were telling this story and they're making changes based on like what they care about the characters they're most interested in. And then, you know, after like say 300 years of that, somebody writes down one version and like that's what we have. But we don't know all the gossip that then went into creating that one version. But even still, that one version then has to be like copied and copied and copied to

then come to us today. And that's another place where people could have been making changes based on their own like need to like insult somebody else or make somebody look great and like we have no way of knowing and ultimately I think it can all come down to just like its ancient world gossip in the best and most interesting possible way. So this is maybe a stupid question. But do you think that myths like the Odyssey and the Iliad that we're talking about started out with like true gossip stories or do you think they started off already as embellished?

These kind of grand tales. That's interesting. I think that they're just like, if you would sat somebody down and been like, okay, so you see this as history, but like, do you actually think that at some point, you know, Aphrodite stole away Aeneas off the battlefield to save his life? Like do you actually think that like a goddess actually came down and they would play like, no, you know, that's just, that's the embellishment. That's the gossip.

Like that's them kind of making it into more and maybe that's just my version of gossip is also that like the inherent embellishment or like making a story more exciting through little extra things, you know? So we think, yeah, like the gossip is sort of like everything surrounding it, but ultimately they did believe that there had been a big war. The Odyssey is a little different because like there's a lot of monsters and like Cyclops and Giants and like cannibals where I'm like, did they fully believe that one? Tougher to say.

Island full of hot women singing does seem reasonable to me. Hot women singing, that's what people want you to believe. And actually in the Asian world, they were birds with women's heads. So like, I mean, that's hot to some people, I'm sure, and I'm sure their heads were the sexy, beautiful, they were like, 90% birds. I want you to talk a little bit more about what you mentioned about embellishment, right? And how like your view of gossip is almost intimately intertwined with embellishment. Can you say a little bit more about that or like how you came to that conclusion?

I think, I mean, I kind of just came to it in that moment where I was like talking about and realizing I was maybe not talking about full regular gossip. But I think, I mean, I'm a person who is always like, I don't want to say I'm over the top because I'm not. I'm also like a person who wants to stay in the shadows and like not draw attention to myself, but I think that in terms of like how I view storytelling and everything, I'm over the top. And, and I mean, that's completely evident in my podcast, which is like, essentially

me telling the intricate mess as if they're gossip, because I do not tell them seriously and I do tell them as if they're utterly ridiculous because they are. And so I think that that's sort of where my mind then like, I think I want to make the story sound like the more ridiculous, more over the top. And I can't think of, you know, an instance where I've necessarily done that in my regular life. Yeah. That's one thing I really like about your podcast is like, you know, my exposure to Greek myths

was like Edith Hamilton, right? And the like kind of being a public school student who was forced to like memorize goddess names, which I was not good at. And I like the kind of like tone that you use on your show. And I guess that is like something I've been thinking a lot about, right? Is that like, is gossip an actual thing or is it just that tone? Right? Like, can you talk about anything as gossip if you just like manipulate the way that you're

talking about it? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I talk about Zeus like I'm gossiping about him constantly. I mean, it's usually insults. Tell me what's he doing? Oh, I mean, he's just sleeping with everyone whether or not they like it. And, you know, impregnating everyone and like appearing in the form of a swan and then impregnating people and so that they have eggs.

And, you know, I mean, like, no, there is it. I think that it's impossible to tell Greek myths without that tone. And then you get the things like Edith Hamilton and and they like they write these stories. All these older people write these stories as if they are just like straightforward. Like this is how the story went. Zeus just appeared to her in the form of a swan and they had sex and then they had babies. And they're like, but like they have inherently consensual sex if he's a swan because I would think that maybe that means that she wasn't necessarily looking for that, you know, most

women we know are not out there like looking for swans. That's not even better. There is actually a story where this is the one that like made me want to start the podcast because I revisited it at a point in my life. Like, why do we tell these as if they're not wild? But there's the story of the Queen on Crete and she granted a God does this to her. Like a God basically curses her because of something her husband did. And she's cursed to exactly which that's like the story of Greek mythology.

Women being punished for what the men do. Great, great, great, great, great. So this woman, her name is Pasif. And she is cursed to have sexual desire for a bull. And this is an actual bull. It's not a God in disguise. Okay. It's a bull.

Essentially, she wants this so badly that she asks a local inventor who happens to be incredibly skilled. She asks him to like make this happen for her and he creates her like a. A big wooden cow that she can hide inside and. Okay. Position herself such. Normal girl behavior. Yep.

Absolutely normal. Just typical wants and desires from a young woman. And yeah, so she can like get inside this wooden cow that is somehow realistic enough and you know, position herself in such a way. To bang the bull. Yeah. And then that's how the Minotaur happens. Wow.

And to me, that is like, that is the wildest form of gossip, which is like somebody took that story, which is like probably just that this woman and a bull were like near each other once. And they were like, well, actually, like, let me expand upon this and. Right. Look at everything else. So the classification of something as a myth is like an inherent admission that it is not true, right?

Like that's the kind of basis of that word. Now it is yes, but not historically. Tell me more. If I recall, it really just more means like word or story. My ancient Greek is not good. So it didn't always inherently mean untrue. Like it does now. But the ancient Greek word is mythos.

And like it definitely didn't have that inherent connotation. I wish I'd looked this up. I'm such a dork. Yeah. I mean, basically that's it. So like it wasn't always fiction. And they really did see it as like their own cultural history and their own cultural stories that had this like deep tie to them as people.

But you can like see how these things came about like in ancient Crete, they they had bull iconography on everything. And then eventually the story of the Minotaur comes out. So you can kind of see how like the truth of the the place, which is that they just loved bulls. You can go like the stuff we have surviving their bulls are on everything. They did this like bull leaping thing where these young boys like danced with bulls basically. Sick.

Love that. It's amazing. And so they just loved bulls. They had them on everything. They were a huge part of their culture. And then, you know, slowly this story evolves. And I also think that it's actually like Athenian gossip to make the Cretans look bad because it also all ties in like an Athenian hero.

Oh my God. There's so much to say. Like because also they weren't like a unified place. They all were like warring with each other and they liked and disliked certain places. So there are also like, they're inherently spreading like rumors to make other people look bad. And that's sort of my longstanding theory about Theseus and the Minotaur because it's it's really a story that makes Crete look really bad.

Like the Minotaur is a monster who comes from monstrous origins and he's locked up and the savior is this Athenian hero. And so it really sounds like the Athenians being like, look how cool we are. You know, we defeated this big bull or this bull man thing. Right. Yeah. It's also like, if you think about the kind of the cliche, right, of the history is written by the victor, it's like you also kind of then end up with that in myths is what I'm hearing

you say, right? Is that like the people who win the war get to spread the rumors they want. Well, yes and no. Fascinatingly, when it comes to ancient Greece, like it's really more like the history was written by the Athenians and that's not because they won every war. It's just because they actually wrote stuff down compared to others who just weren't interested in writing stuff down. So it's more like everything we know about ancient Greece for the most part is completely

ethnocentric and that's purely because they were nerds who wrote stuff down, whereas everyone else was just interested in living their daily lives and telling their stories. They just weren't interested in preserving it. And so 90% of what we have preserved is from Athens because they just were nerds. I went to the University of Texas and there was a history professor there that I had who said there are two ways to be famous, right? You can be famous now in this life or you can just write everything down. Everything, right?

Like how much milk cost what the weather was like. If you write everything down, then eventually historians are like, you are the truth of the past. That is Athens. Thank you to the Athenian people for their gossip and rumors. We have it all because of them. It's super biased and weird and often like demonizes other people for no reason, but we have it.

Are you ready? Would you like to hear a gossip story? I am so ready. Today's story takes place in a setting that may be a little bit familiar to you because of your work, which is like archives and libraries. Our friend of a friend, her name is Jasmine. She's like 25 years old. She has no money.

She lives in an old historic city in like a tiny apartment with a couple roommates. This is 2013. So it is like Obama era. Great. I was 25 then too. I'm going to pull it all right back. All right. Perfect.

Yeah. So you're her now. Jasmine's thing is like truly books are her personality, right? And like not in like a bad way, right? Like she's the kind of girl that makes like a Christmas tree out of books, right? And like strings it up with lights. She collects like those old read posters from the libraries that had like celebrities on them, right?

Like Shaq. And she had like a huge crush on LeVar Burton growing up. I was just going to make mention him as a possibility for a read poster, but I enjoy Shaq as well. But I'm glad LeVar Burton got brought up. Yeah, we have to, you know, she's our book girlie. So her dream because like books are her like hobby, but she wants them to be her job also, right?

So her dream is to be like a curator for a big archival library. So after undergrad, she went back to school to get her master's in library sciences because she was like, this will open the doors to me of a future in the libraries. She graduates. And as you may imagine, it is a little difficult to find a job as a librarian in general. I identify with this in a very real way. Like when I was 25, I worked for Penguin and I made no money. And I had just finished graduate studies for publishing.

And the fact that I even got a job was like big news because it's impossible. So yeah, I'm connecting. Yes. So Jasmine's like flailing around, right? Because she's like, I really want to do this. And she's in that like very awkward scenario where she has like two close friends from her MLS degree. And one of them has just gotten a job.

So it's like people are starting to move into a future and she is feeling kind of stuck in the past. So the friend who has gotten a job, her name is Caitlin. And she is like the Sophia Amoroso of libraries, right? Like we're talking pencil skirt, peplum. She has gotten this job like out of startup, right? Some like startup that is like certainly selling out, right? Like no question.

She's going to make a ton of money. And this is like girl boss era, right? So Caitlin, Caitlin is like, you know, stability, I'll have money. I'm going to break the glass ceiling, right? Like she has this kind of like grandiose vision of her future at this startup. And Jasmine and her friend, David are like, we don't really know how to feel about this because like David is like a nice boy. He likes Franzen.

He's like in his twenties, but he's the kind of guy who like throws his tie over his shoulder when he's eating, right? Like it's like weird situation, but they are both like we, we want jobs that are in actual libraries. Like we don't want to sell out this early. We want to find jobs that align with our ethical morals and our dreams. Do you think that your job can be ethical? No, but also like, I know this feeling so well.

I think it's so tied to books. Like if you're our book nerd, yeah, you want this like purity, like, oh my God, no, just the levels on which I am connecting with this. Like especially like I'm Canadian. I worked in Toronto and like it was, okay, do you want to work with real books? Do you want that experience of working in a publishing house and like that thing that like feels like the number one thing you want in this world? Or do you want a job and money?

And so are you willing to work at one of the tech companies that works with like ebooks and online books and my life was half and half and also like everyone I know. And it is so hard. Especially when you're young, you think you're going to hold out for the real books. Yeah. Yeah, you believe, you know? Yeah. So Jasmine is like, I agree with David, like I don't want to sell out yet.

I want to hold out for the real books. I want to be like in the trenches with the books, but also she has no money, right? And like we are every day getting further away from having graduated from your master's degree. So like any 25 year old, she's like, this is not sustainable. I need to have some kind of income. So she begins walking dogs. She's like, I'll walk dogs for a little bit.

This will make me a good amount of money and then I can spend the rest of my time applying for jobs, right? Just like scrolling desperately through LinkedIn and like crying over indeed postings. Yeah. Awful. Awful. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry to have brought you back to this time.

It gets better. Yeah, it really does. Okay. So she's like doing all her little dog walking or whatever. And one day David is like, hey, can you meet me for a drink? And she's like, yeah, of course. And so she goes to meet him for a drink and the place that David has picked out is like fancy, right?

It's like dark mahogany bar, the barstools that spin and like the vinyl booths. Yeah, exactly. Like it is like the kind of bar where the cocktails have like names and they're all like $16. And so our girl Jasmine is like immediately nervous because she's like $16 is like what I make for walking one dog. So like I cannot just be throwing this away on cocktails. And David is like, don't worry. Like I invited you here because like I have something to tell you and we have something

to celebrate. David has gotten the junior archivist job at like Jasmine's dream big public library. Oh, what a blow. It's such a blow. And it's also like the worst kind of blow because he's your friend. So you have to be like happy for him. Yeah. Yeah.

That feeling is so bad because you feel so bad that you didn't get it. And then you feel so bad for not being fully happy for your friend. Yes, exactly. So she's like, you know, she puts up her best face. She does her best, right? She's like, I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. And inside she's like, I am going to die, right?

Because like this is the job that I wanted. Now she has to go and she's like walking her dogs all the time. And she just knows that David is like there at this public library. So she tells him, she's like, you know, after he's been there for a month or so, she's like, if there are ever any openings, like please let me know. I would like to also work at the big public library. And David's like, yeah, of course, like you're my best friend. I will of course get you a job here if any of them open.

She's like, great. But like time is going by, right? We've got like a couple more months. She's like running out of hope. She's not feeling good. One day David calls her and is like, hey, there's a job opening for the junior exhibition curator. It's like not a public application, but like I've gotten you a way to apply.

Would you like to apply to this job? Do you think she should? Yeah, I don't see a reason why not. You could get in when you can. Exactly. So like if somebody is descending a hand to you from a grumbling space, you take it, right? Yeah.

So she's like nervous because she's like, this is my dream job. Can you please like help me prep? And he's like, yeah, of course. So like, you know, David sits her down and he's like, all right, like where do you want to be in five years? What are your greatest weaknesses? Like are you a team player? And he kind of like runs her through all the like basic interview hits.

And so by the time she does the interview, she's like a rock star at it. She's like, I've already practiced all of these questions. And so she just like nails the interview. That's very exciting. Yes, we love it. She's like, oh my God, my dream isn't dead, right? Which is like a true triumph. She gets this job and it is like everything she wanted it to be, right?

Like the desk that she gets to sit at is like giant. And also it was like owned by a writer who's now dead. All of the lights are those like green tube lights with the little like hangie brass thing. I can see them. All the offices have like tons of trim, right? Because it's like an old, old building, right? Yeah, dark wood everywhere. Yeah, it's like painted that like red color that all these places are painted, right?

Like it's like beautiful. And she's like, I'm so happy. Her new boss is this guy named William. William is famous for like creating experiences for visitors to the library's exhibitions that like have boosted attendance at the library by 100% over like five years. Like he is well known in this space and he is like a jolly, affable, very, very old man. He wears like little spectacles. And Jasmine is like, this is so exciting.

I'm so excited to work for this guy who's like a legend in the field. I'm going to like learn so much. We're going to have so much fun. But her first day at work, William is like, there's a little bit of a problem, which is that my executive assistant has quit. Why are you making that sound? Because he's going to make her do it. He's like, would you be willing to just like pick up a little bit of her tasks while we find a new one?

The patriarchy is so real. Why are you so upset? Why are you mad? Probably if a man had been hired, he would not have asked him to do this because she did not get hired as an executive assistant. And that job is so completely different. And it's just going to derail everything. And no, I am angry for her and I am mad at men. Yes, just make new and different for me.

But William is so old and he's so kind and he asks her so nicely and also she's 25. I mean, yeah, you have to say yes, though. Like, yeah, exactly. So she says, she says yes. And then, you know, she has to do like a bunch of little menial things, right? Which, sure. But the worst part of her being his new like executive assistant by accident is that this man cannot type like he pecks at the computer. And so he hand writes his emails and hands them to Jasmine to type for him.

I've heard of these people. You've heard about this? Once or twice. You can name them after we stop recording. I would love to hear. Okay, now her job is like quickly becoming more executive assistant than like junior exhibition curator, right? She is like picking up his dry cleaning. She's getting them lunch.

She's typing all of his emails. Oh my God. And this man does not have good handwriting, right? Like he has like a thick slant and a big cursive, right? So it is like a, it is not an easy task. Sounds like my nightmare. It's just awful. Like I'm just so mad.

But the thing is like this public library is so big and it has so much bureaucracy of just like flaming tiny hula hoops that you have to jump through to do anything that there is like really nothing for her to do. No. Jasmine is just like sitting at her desk every day. She's shown up to work and there's just nothing for her to do. So she's like on some level at least typing these emails gives me a task. At least I'm not just sitting here. So she does it, right? She like gets his little salads, whatever.

In the meantime, she's like, you know, watching her friend, Caitlin's YouTube, like girl boss videos at her desk, right? Like just like, what am I doing here? Six months into this job, she gets lunch with David. And David is like, it's so good to see you. Like I hope that you're doing great. Like what are you up to? And she's like, well, I spend most of my time deciphering my boss's chicken scratch and turning it into emails for him. And the rest of my time I spend g chatting my friends and David's like, oh my God, what?

Like that's crazy. Why are you doing that? And she's like, well, he asked me to and like, he's my boss and David's like, but we are like at the same level. And she's like, yeah, but like he's my boss and he asked me to do it. And David's like, yeah, I don't think you understand though. Like I'm going to Europe in a few weeks for like this company with William and we are at the same level. And he's like, William says such nice things about you. Like he really cares about you.

I don't understand why he's not like giving you these opportunities. And she's like, yeah, I don't, I don't understand either. I would love to understand. What would you like to do here? How are you feeling? Let's check in. It's like what I would do if I was had a completely different personality towards my own is like actually really vehemently stand up for myself. Be like, look, I was hired to do this job.

You're really nice. I think you are doing your best. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, but I want to point out that I am the woman and you are only giving me these like assistant level tasks. I don't get to do anything else. And then I would like use the exact comparison of her friend who is, you know, who is doing something completely different. And like he's saying, if they're on the same level, like this should not be her job. So I want her to do that. But would I is a whole other question.

Right. Exactly. So Jasmine is like, this is certainly a difference because like I am a woman and David is not. I am feeling bad generally. And I don't feel like David is really the one to help me. So she is like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to call Caitlin. I'm going to call my girl boss friend and I'm going to be like, Caitlin, what do I do?

And Caitlin, because she is the best girl boss of all time is like, you quit. We'll get you another job. You don't need to work there. And Jasmine's like, no, that's not, I don't think I want to quit. Like I don't think I want that. And Caitlin's like, yeah, but like, do you want me to just keep an eye out for openings at my job? It is important to note that the place where Caitlin works is called Cypher. It is a tech company.

It is spelled C Y P H R. Great. Love that. Hate vowels. Yeah. We hate vowels. And it is like a startup that does like computer learning, like teaching computers how to decipher handwriting so that like it can help archival processes, you know, look at Thomas Jefferson's

letters and like decipher it on its own. Sounds helpful for those emails. It is like very closely connected to what Jasmine is literally doing every single day. But it's also like, exactly. And it's also not completely divorced from like what she wants to do because it's still like pretty closely connected with the library system. So she's like, you know what? Sure.

Like keep your ears open. If they're hiring, I'll think about it. Caitlin's like, great. Love that for us. But then like things get a little bit better. Right. William asks her to like help him with a curation show. And it like, she gets to do just enough that it like reminds her why she wants to do this.

Right. Oh, I got to like write the little like plaques for this show. And I got to like weigh in on how we should arrange it. And like she gets to do what she was hired to do. And so she's like, oh, actually, if I get to do my job here, it's nice. And William's like, you're such a lifesaver. I like want to see if I can find you more work. But like, I am off to Europe right for this thing that I have to do.

He's gone. Now there's like truly nothing for her to do because he's in Europe for a week. And so she's like, what do I do all the time? It's like, I guess I'll just like watch vines on my phone. Right. Like it's this kind of like miserable desk job situation. But while he's gone, someone calls her and is like, hey, we have a like problem finding a letter from like some author whose archive the library has. And they're like, William said that you're really good at deciding frame handwriting.

Is there any way that you could go look? And she's like, yes, I would love to go look because this means that she gets to go to the big room. That smells like paper and has like those little red velvet things that like the books sit on. You have to wear the gloves so you don't wreck the paper. Yeah, exactly. It's like very precious, very, very holy. Right. And she's like, of course, I'm like happy to do that one because it seems fun.

And two, like, yeah, it's something to do. So she goes out and it takes her like several days while William has gotten to find the letter that like these people need for their curation thing. But she also finds another one. So she's like, not only did I find the thing that you needed, but I found you this other letter that also seems relevant. And they're like, oh my God, you're a lifesaver. You're so good at this. Thank you so much. Feels so good for her.

Yep. Great for her. William comes back and he's like, everyone is singing your praises. I have heard from across the pond that you were here like making me look good. Thank you so much. I'm so proud of you. And she's like, yeah, yeah, thanks. And so they like go get lunch, right?

Because he's like, I want to like celebrate and hear what you brought up to while I was gone. And while they're at lunch, he's like, why didn't you tell me that you knew Chip? And she's like, who? And he's like, Chip, Chip Bartholomew, like he was on the trip with me. And she's like, David, David Bartholomew, my friend. And he's like, yeah, yeah, Chip, his dad and I went to college together. And Jasmine is like, I knew David was rich, but I didn't know he was like rich. Somebody you called Chip?

Like that's rich. Nobody poor is called Chip. Exactly. And she's like, suddenly it makes a lot of sense that like he was able to get this job and that he was like so sure about his morals and like not selling out. And she's like, I am not like that. Like I'm playing a different game. And so she texts Caitlin and is like, I want you to know that I'm serious.

If there's an opportunity at Cypher, I would like to be considered. I mean, I get where she's coming from. It's just so frustrating. Like it's all just so frustrating. That whole world is so, it's all about who you know. And that sucks. And it's all about how much money you have. And that sucks.

Like, I mean, it makes me think of the intern situation, which is that, I mean, I think it's slightly different now, but when I was trying to be in publishing, like you basically didn't get a job without interning. And if you interned, you worked for three months and you got a thousand dollars at the end, except you had to live in Toronto. What? Yeah. And so like for me, I was on student loans and I just finished my degree

and I do not have family money. Like I am not wealthy whatsoever. I was so poor. And so the only, the only internship that like notorious, there was like two, I think that paid you actually like two grand a month. And it was like, oh my God. And so I was like money to eat. Yeah.

What? Like I can slightly pay my bills. It's Toronto. So you can't really go crazy with that. But and so I only was able to apply to those and like, thankfully, I nudged my way in and I got an internship at Kobo because it was a tech company. So they paid. And it was the same thing of like, are you selling out because you're not working

in real books, but it's like, that's the only way you could make money because the publishers won't pay you money. And even when I got my job after my internship with Kobo, I made only a tiny bit more and I was fully employed. Sick. That I worked at publishing. But it's like, anyway, I just feel all of this so deeply. And moving over to tech sometimes is the only way to make money.

And it feels like you're giving up on your dream. Mm hmm. So Caitlin texts her like a couple weeks after this. And she's like, girly, there is an opportunity at Cypher. This job pays double at least what Jasmine is making. And like, she would actually have work to do and she would like not have to transcribe emails. So tempting.

I know. Caitlin is like, do you want me to like recommend you for this? Do you want to apply? And Jasmine's like, you know what? Give me like a couple of days to think about it because like things have been going really well with William and like she has kind of gotten these new opportunities. And she's like, you know what? Maybe we're like turning a corner.

And then later that week, she's like talking to someone and she over here is William, call her his secretary. It's all over. That'd be it. Do you apply? Yeah, that's the line. Somebody called you a secretary when you weren't even hired as an assistant, let alone secretary.

Like, oh my gosh. Yep. So she's like, listen, I'm going to apply. She like texts Caitlin and she's like, yes, put my name in. I'll send you my resume. And inside she's like, I can always not take it. I can always get this job and decide that I don't want it. And Caitlin's like, yeah, yeah, of course.

Like definitely I've got your application, but like Caitlin's like, I want you to know that like the interview process here is very intense. Like the founders think it's important to make sure that you are like ready for the level of heat this job has. So like I really recommend prepping. How do you think she should prep for this interview? Oh God. I hate that.

That's like least, oh my God, corporate world. That phrase in general is just like raising several red flags up a very tall staff. Yeah. Yeah. I had to, I interviewed for a tech company once and it was like a three step process of interviews. And how my God, like sometimes you're just like, is this worth it? Like this is not actually my dream, but I need money and my dream is failing.

So like it's so difficult. I personally, not least because I have ADHD and I don't like confrontation. I would like not probably prepare all that much and I would just hope for the best, but I would be really not able to process the whole way through. I like that solution of like, I'm just going to wing it and run in here. Jasmine is like, yeah, exactly. I hope in a prayer and we just go forth into the Cypher offices. Jasmine is like the last time I applied for a job.

I had David help me and he did a great fucking job. And honestly, now that I know that he's rich, rich, he owes me. So she's like, David, will you help me prepare for this interview? And David's like, yeah, of course. The way that David preps her for this interview, she's like, what is, like this is completely different than the way you prep me for the library one, right? For the library one, he was like, what's your plan in five years? Who's your favorite author for this one?

He's like, imagine you have $25 and you're stuck in Las Vegas. How do you get to New York? And she's like, what? And he's like, these are the kind of questions these men are going to ask you. You need to like do this. Do we trust David? Like, I mean, that feels like what is his experience that he would know that. But then he is exactly right, right?

Like the offices are like, you know, it's like a startup office. So it's like, she goes up this fancy elevator and it opens and there are like ping pong tables and foosball tables and like free snacks everywhere and like a drink fountain. You know, it's like, there's one of those walls. It's like made of plants. Oh yeah. There's like quotes written on all the walls really big from like smart people who are smart because people say they are not because they're necessarily smart.

Yes. There's like, you know, those, those big steps that like don't go anywhere, but people just sit on them with their little laptops, right? It's like this kind of place. Yep. And every single question in the interview is exactly like the ones David gave her. Wow. Who is David?

Like, I need to know more about him. Right. She's like, oh my God. But honestly, she's like, great, because now I have like aced this interview. I'm feeling good, right? I'm not like concerned. There were like 10 guys in this interview, right? Like she had to sit at this huge conference table and like be grilled by them.

And she like did it. No problem. So she's like, well, well, well, I'm doing great. After her interview, they're like, can we have your references? She's like, of course. But she's like a little nervous because she's like, I want out, right? I'm like typing these emails at work and I just like need a way to get out of here. She's like walking home from work.

It's like fall, so the light is really good and like golden and the air is nice. And she like gets the call and they're like, you've got the job at Sears if you want it. And she's like, give me a couple of days to think about it, which is a smart move in general, if you're offered a job. Do you think she should take it? I think that she should give one last ditch effort to you at using it to make her job better because if she can and it's still her dream, I think that it's hard to let go on that and giving it one more try of like, hey, I got this offer, like either I'm going

to leave or you are going to actually give me the job that I was hired for in the beginning and you're going to hire your own assistant immediately and really like use it as leverage and give that one last try. And then if that fails, then yes, take it. I think that that's really smart and what she should have done. This is not what happened. Jasmine is like, the pay is better. They have free snacks.

I'm done having ethics. I'm done being treated like shit like I'm going. And so she calls Cypher and she's like, I would love to accept this. Like, thank you so much. She goes out to dinner and celebrates like she's having a great time. She's like, I did it. The next day she gets a call from Caitlin and Caitlin is like chewing gum on the phone because she always is.

And Caitlin's like, hey, girly, this is like super weird. Like I have never done this before, but the big bosses at Cypher have this like little teensy request. They asked me to ask you because they know that I like recommended you. The thing is they don't want to burn any bridges with the big library because it's like important to the future of the company and they might want to like collab in the future. Jasmine's heart is like falling into her stomach, right? She's like, are they like revoking this job offer?

Like what is happening here? And Caitlin's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They just don't, they don't want to seem like they're poaching. They just like hired this other person who also worked at the library. What they wanted is to just like make some decisions for optics. They just want you to tell your boss that you've interviewed but haven't heard back from us. And then the founder will call William and ask if we can make you an offer. This is so sketchy.

I hate it a lot. Tell me more. That is so concerning because I feel like it could backfire for her in so many ways. Like she could vary from this nonsensical and like, what's the word I want? Like they're just taking advantage of her completely in this. It's predatory even to suggest that because she could very easily end up with no job. Yes. And she's like, but you did make me an offer.

Like, why would you call my boss and lie to him? Yeah, that's not going to make things better. Right. And Caitlin's like, it's just for optics. And Jasmine's like, I mean, sure, I guess, because like curating is a small industry. She's like, I don't want to burn any bridges, but also like, what is this? My hand in marriage? Like why?

Why? Are you calling my boss to ask this? What is like happening here? Because as you may remember, Jasmine has full access to William's email. She sees the request for this call come in. She approves the meeting request. She knows that he has this call on Friday afternoon because she said it. But then after the call, he doesn't say anything to her like nothing.

And so she calls Caitlin and she's like, what's happening? And Caitlin's like, William says that he's considering it. Oh my God. She's a whole weekend of agony. Monday morning on her walk to work, Caitlin calls her and is like, so William said that you're his world and that it's like very important that you be there and that he like would consider it poaching if we like hired you. They're cool.

Old men who have been in that industry and think they're gods. They're cool. They're definitely not the bane of everyone. Everyone's existence. Jasmine's like, what? She arrives at work? Pissed. William is not there.

And when he comes in around like noon, he acts like nothing happened. Yeah. Because he thinks she doesn't know because it's so gross and weird. Yes. I can like see what I would do, which is almost nothing. But what she should do is come in hot and just be like, hey, look, I know this happened. They went through me in this way and I think it was really inappropriate. And if I am your world, then give me the actual job that I was hired for.

Like at least now try to use it as leverage. It's almost nothing at this point. But I mean, there's no way that you could keep working that job without the level of like simmering fury. She would just feel that constantly without saying anything. So yeah. I had a boss like one of the first jobs I had where like they didn't make an offer that matched one that I had gotten.

And she told me she was like, bitterness is a pill you can't unswallow. Like once you have become bitter here, you will not become unbitter. And like, I think about it all the time. I think this is relevant in this scenario. It's absolutely my experience in the past two. I love that phrase because I can feel when that happened to me. Yeah. You know when you do it, right?

You're like, oh, I am now bitter forever. Right. And like, Jasmine, I think like knows that in her gut, right? She's like, if I say nothing, if I go back to like transcribing this man's emails, I'm going to lose my mind and I'm going to be so mad that like nothing is going to happen. So she like marches into his office and she's like, William, I need to speak with you. And he's like, okay, like what's up? And she's like, I know, like I interviewed for this job.

I know that they called you. I know that you didn't let me go. Like why would you do that? And William is like, you are so good and I do not want you to go to that like weird startup where they're doing shady shit. And she's like, they're not doing shady shit. I like, I'm not getting to do anything here. All I do is like transcribe your emails.

And he's like, yes, you're right. And I'm sorry about that. And I am like working on hiring another executive assistant and she is supposed to be here in a couple of weeks. But you are also the best handwriting decipherer in this building because of transcribing my emails. Like he was like, you are great at this. And like, I think we can really use that this next year to like give you some more opportunities

and like get you down into the archives looking for stuff. And like, I am going to help you do this. Like it is an invaluable skill that you have. I think in this moment, the absolute first thing she should do is say like, okay, that's all great. I'm going to let you, you know, prove yourself. But for this exact moment, you are not incapable of typing your own emails. And so I'm done with that.

Yes. Right now. This at this very second. This man is not incapable. He is just an old man and that the two are not the same. And so yeah, she should just stop his emails immediately and say like, okay, prove yourself right now or else I'm leaving because I would like that job if it's true. Yes.

And you will be proud to know that that is exactly what she does. She is like, I am no longer getting a salad. I'm no longer getting coffee. I won't be transcribing any more emails. I will sit here and watch YouTube videos on my computer until you get me work that is my actual job. Damn right. And I am like, I'm so proud of her.

She has like grown up, right? She like put her fucking foot down and it works. Like to her credit, William like figures it out because it's like he old men do understand yelling. That's a thing they like generally understand. So he like helps her. And for a year, she like hasn't it's working, right? Like she gets to do these things.

She gets to like work on the new exhibition. She gets to go to Europe the next fall. She's like, everything is coming up Jasmine, right? She's like, see all I had to do was pitch a pitch one fit and then it just like happened to work out for me. Two years after this, things are going fine, right? She's like having a good time. She's like talking to his executive assistant and his executive assistant is like Jasmine,

like something weird is happening. And she's like, what's happening? That's weird. And the executive assistant is like, I think that William is having an affair. Oh my God. He's emailing this woman all the time. And Jasmine is like, who? Like, who is he emailing?

What do you mean he's having an affair? And the executive assistant is like, come look at these emails because as you can imagine, the executive assistant is typing all of these emails for him. The idea of also having an affair while somebody else types your emails is so funny. It's so funny. It's funny and it's also gross and weird. Yeah. Sorry, what?

And so Jasmine is like, I need to see these, right? Like obviously I am marching right over there. I'm reading these little handwritten emails and she's reading them and like, they are flirty emails, right? Like they're the kind of emails that are like, I had a great lunch with you. Like it was so nice to see you, but they are not like flirty emails. And she's like, who are these emails going to? And the executive assistant is like, oh, they're going to a very high up curator at another

public library. So there are two options here, right? Either William is having an affair with a high up curator at another library, which is funny, or he's trying to get a new job. Based on my knowledge of old men in this field, I feel like he's not trying to get a new job, but I also am not convinced that that is an actual, an affair. So what do you do? I'm assuming that based on all of this, Jasmine was like, she did not experience those before.

She wasn't like a long standing relationship he'd had with that person. That's very interesting. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I don't think there's necessarily anything to be done. Like it doesn't affect her if he gets a new job. Like maybe a better person would come in except maybe it's David and then I'm not convinced that would be good. Yeah. So I don't know.

I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily understand the stakes for her necessarily having to do anything except obsessively with all of them at any opportunity because that's exactly what I would do. Yeah. So that's basically what she does is she's like, hello executive assistant. I'm going to need you to drop off all of these at my desk also. We're best friends now. Yeah. Report back at all times.

Like what is going on here? I would like to know the emails keep coming. She like keeps reading them. She's like reading them over a period of like a couple of weeks when it becomes like pretty fucking clear that he's getting a new job, leaving this big library. So now we have like a couple of issues, right? Because like this man who while he was very annoying to you the first year, he then became your champion essentially is leaving.

So like who is going to replace him? Is it going to be you? Is it going to be David? Is it going to be some rando from outside? Like what your future here at this giant bureaucracy is now in question. Jasmine is like, I've taken these emails in there. I'm going to talk to him about it. She's like, we've been together for three years.

I can walk in there and be like, what's up with this? Your executive assistant showed me your email. Are you leaving? And she does. And he's like, yes, I am leaving. I did not want you to find out this way. They are essentially dissolving the department that we are in. And he is like, I really want to bring you with me.

But there is like no junior curator role at this new library. So like you would have to come with me as my assistant. He's like, but it is a job, right? Like it is a job and it's still in libraries. I don't believe him. I don't believe him. This is ridiculous. Do you want to go though?

Like what are you? No. No, I mean, I don't think so. Like at that point, once you finally got an actual real job in the field, the idea of going back to being not only an assistant, but an assistant who has to type out a man's emails. Yeah. Which is like a special kind of assistant.

Like that is the worst kind of assistant to be at level. Yeah. And yeah. So I mean, no, like I think that's when you either finally try tech again. Like who's to say they wouldn't take her back because obviously nothing was burned because of the stupidity of their actions. Over at Cipher, which I do appreciate. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think this is not, you don't go and be an assistant. You like say, okay, you move over there and you let me know when there's a curator position that's at my level. You let me know and then I will come to you. Yes. So she is like, she's basically on the same page as you. She's like, I'm not going to be your assistant again. I'm like very good at my job.

I'm also upset to learn that our entire department is being dissolved because that's extremely bad news. And she's like, but I don't want to take a step backwards in my career. And he is like, I think that's totally fair. Like I would do the same thing. He's like, if there's anything I can do, just like let me know. And she's like, I know something you can do. You can fucking call Cipher and tell them that the cock block on my hiring has

been lifted. Like let me have the job I want. Yeah. And William to his credit does. He calls and is like, Hey, like I'm leaving. If you want to hire her, she's great. Like she would be great at it. But because it's been more than a year, they make her do the interview process again.

Oh my God. Yep. Same glass conference room, same snacks, same weird quotes on the wall. Do you think that when they offer her this job, things are going to turn out well? No, because corporate world, they never do like, oh my God. Yeah. I mean, but I also don't think there's necessarily another option. Yes.

They offer her this job and William is like, I really don't think you should take that job. And she's like, well, William, I have no other options. So I'm taking it. What's his reasoning? Yeah. Well, what's his reasoning on that? Great question. Because like why, if he called them and said she'd be good at it, like why now?

He's like, I don't think everything over there is above board. And she's like, what's this mean? And he's like, listen, it's a job, jobs are jobs. Like if you want to take it, take it, but like I wouldn't take it. Do you take it? I mean, maybe and then just go from there. Like it's difficult. It's worse to not have a job at all for any extended period of time.

Like she could certainly go over there and then just keep looking for something better. Right. Exactly. So she's like, I'll take it, whatever. Like three times as much as my salary at the library now because I am like higher up. And once she's like inside the company, she's just like working so much all the time because it is like a startup. So it is not library life where it's like, it's 5 30 p.m.

Go home. It is like she is online constantly and pretty quickly she's like, oh, I see what's happening here. What's happening is Cypher who is like, you know, teaching computers how to decipher handwriting has launched a front facing like public interface where people can upload samples of their own handwriting and the like artificial intelligence will create a font out of their handwriting. But what that means is that they're like collecting samples of people's handwriting. Yeah.

And keeping them in like a weird database. And Gassman is like, I do not feel great about this. Like this is not what I wanted. I thought we were just doing something to help translate like archival books. This is not what I want. But she's like, it's a job and I need the job and I'm making a lot of money and I can finally have my own apartment and like, that's great. I love having my own apartment.

So like ethics and having a job. We are getting close to the end. How are you feeling? I am connecting with this in too many ways and I'm feeling all of the thrill that I no longer have to work in the corporate world because it's so stressful. But also like so often you have to compromise things because we have to exist in this capitalistic mess and like there's no other way. And so yeah, I mean, if I were her, I would be like trying to save that money, which I

would never do because I'm awful at saving money, but like I would be making an attempt to save money while also looking for a job that would get me the hell out of there. Yes. Okay. You were going to hate this. Yeah. What is about to happen? No, no.

What day? She's at the Cypher offices right in her little like glass fucking conference room type type typing away. But she looks up and she sees walking through the like main section. David. Yep. How did I know that was coming? Oh no.

And she like waves at him and like calls him over and he pokes his head and then she's like, Oh, are you here to interview? Like, are you coming to Cypher? He's already her boss. No, he's like, no, I'm just, I'm just dropping something off. And she's like, but what is he like, he's still at the library. What is he dropping off? Like, why is he here?

And he's like, Oh, I'm just dropping off the thing for my dad. And she's like, what? But she doesn't ask him. She's smart. She asked Caitlin. She's like, Caitlin, I saw David here and he said that he was dropping something off for his dad. What is that?

And Caitlin's like, Oh, you didn't know that David's dad is the primary investor in Cypher? The way these industries are that insular, like the examples that I have. Wow. Yep. Kate. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Now I have so many questions about William.

Would you like to ask them or would you like to keep going? I mean, they knew each other. So his whole, this is sketchy thing. Like he has got connections here. There is, there is just unanswered questions. You know, there's, there's a lot of big question marks about who is doing what and why. And yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm excited to hear what, and also horrified, I should say, to hear what is going to happen.

Yes. So David's father and William went to some Ivy League school together as we already know. Uh-huh. And that is why like William knew that David's nickname was Chip because like their old family friends, right? Yeah. Of course.

Chip. Which is why Cypher asked for permission to hire her because David's dad is friends with William and he knew that this was happening because David helped her prep for that interview. So he gave it away. He wouldn't, they wouldn't have known. Yeah. I'm not a fan of David. The kind of twist here though that I find interesting is that the reason William did

not let her go to Cypher is not because he was like, you're my world, you need to stay here. It's because he was like, they're up to no good. You can't go over there, don't leave. And so he blocked this deal, but it didn't like ultimately, it didn't work because the reason that their division got dissolved is because Cypher is, was like making a deal with the library. So like William saw the writing on the wall from the beginning and was like, if you go

over there, they'll just dissolve this faster. So she just kind of like prolonged it a little bit. Yep. We are like at the end, unfortunately. How are you feeling? Like there's no more. We don't have any updates. We have an update, but I want to know how you're feeling first.

Okay. I, I mean, I'm just, this whole world is so frustrating. I hope things turned out okay for her and then she got a better job that is not in this, but mostly I am just so in awe of like how much this sounds like everything I've ever known. Yes. Like who's side are you on? I mean, Jasmine's, but I don't like, I don't know what that ends up meaning.

I mean, I'm on the side of tearing down all of these systems and yeah, preventing tech companies from taking over everything that human beings used to do and the old men that run everything. I'm against all of them and I am pro Jasmine and what she represents. You can feel so strongly about all of this. I'm so sorry. The update I have for you is good though. The like, would you like the final update?

Yes. The final update is that Jasmine spent the six months that she spent at Cypher after realizing this, finding ways to sabotage the product by intentionally uploading handwriting samples and then deciphering them incorrectly. So basically she single-handedly like tanked the Cypher program by act, well, not by accident, but she made it look like an accident by being like, but I thought that that's what those words said. Oh my God, I love this.

She actually deciphered them correctly. It's not my fault. Oops. And then she quit. And now I love her. I know. We're so proud of her. And now she has a good job where no one makes her transcribe emails and she like gets to

do creative work. I'm so, I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of what she accomplished. I, we need more Jasmine's in that world. This is wild. The whole story is incredible and insane. The way you guys find gossip that suits your guests too is truly like unbelievable. Thank you.

We try very hard. You succeed. The like visceral body hurt so much. Like I've been out of this field now for like six years and like, oh my God. I just like the feelings, the experiences that I can actually have. I do. Yep. Liv, thank you so much for coming on Normal Gossip.

It was a delight to have you and I appreciate you going through this difficult and terrorizing journey with us. Thank you for having me despite the horror that I have expressed and I'm feeling this was so much fun. I'm so sorry. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normal gossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip.

If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and Tik Tok at Normal Gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin. Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector's business guys.

Tom Lei is our editor-in-chief. Jay Tolviera is our production assistant. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Louise Payas-Poumore for your help on this episode. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively-owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radio Topia.

Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Zarena, and remember, you did not hear this from me. Radio Topia, from PRX.