Normal Gossip - It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Caroline O'Donoghue joins us from across the pond for a story about art collectors with too much time and money on their hands. Follow Caroline on Instagram @czaronlineGet tickets to Kelsey's book tour here!Pre-order Kelsey's book, YOU DIDN'T HEAR THIS FROM ME, here!Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Kelsey and Alex, blog recommendations, and bonus secrets!You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com.Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/Episode transcript here.Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP.Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs), Ozzy Llinas Goodman (@ozzy_llinas), and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira). Abigail Segel (@AbigailSegel) is our intern. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Credits read by Carey T. Show art by Tara Jacoby.Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.

Hello, it's Kelsey McKinney from Normal Gossip. And as you may have already heard, it is time for Radiotopia's annual fall fundraiser. Radiotopia is the parent company that helps us make this podcast. And they're the home to a lot of guests of the show that you know and love already. Avery Truffleman, Ronald Young Jr., Zakiya Givens, and more who you'll meet this season. Donating to Radiotopia gives money to help all of the shows in this network make money. Like our podcast, their shows take a ton of time and energy and money, hours of work on every episode, and the money that's given in this drive will help our peers do better,

exciting work that they're really passionate about. And one thing I love about Radiotopia is that it is really creator first. Creators retain full ownership of their ideas and get to make the creative and business choices that are right for them. Plus, Radiotopia is a nonprofit, so that's a tax deduction if you're looking for one. Head to radiotopia.fm slash donate to make a tax deductible contribution and support our work. Visit radiotopia.fm slash donate to learn more and donate.

Thank you so much. Hi and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today I am so excited to have with me a long distance friend, Caroline O'Donoghue. Caroline is a novelist, a podcaster, and a screenwriter. All our hidden gifts, her fantasy series for young adults is a New York Times bestseller, and the Rachel incident is being adapted for television by Universal Studios.

Wow, that's cool. Caroline's podcast, Sentimental Garbage, charts internationally and has acquired over nine million downloads worldwide. Also, I love it. She was born in Cork, Ireland and she currently lives in London. Caroline, welcome. Hello. I'm so excited to be here. You've no idea. This is fantastic. Caroline, will you start me off with the classic first question and tell me what your relationship with gossip is? Wow. Many and varied. Like I feel, so in case it's not clear to your listeners, I am an Irish person.

And, and like, there's this whole thing of like, I get to sit on all these amazing literature panels and have people ask me really thoughtful questions about like, what is it with the Irish and storytelling? And, and to that, and then you, the whole like strong oral tradition thing and like it really hits me that the phrase strong oral tradition is just a sort of a euphemism for talking shit all day every day. I think about this an awful lot about Ireland never really had an industrial revolution. So so like going back to the turn of the 19th century.

Perfect. Yeah, let's start at the beginning. Let's let me bring you back to the spinning Jenny. You know, in England and America and Germany, all these different countries, there was like this moment where industrial action happened and where like all kinds of populations were just became into cities and all that kind of stuff. That never really happened in Ireland. Ireland was always just like, your workplace is your back garden and there's no entertainment of any kind except for you can walk six miles in the dark to your friend's house to talk shit. And that's like it. And I think that's

where all the music stuff comes from. And that's where all this storytelling thing comes from. It really comes from a sort of a lack of anything else to do. Like the, the, the, the two penny strip show is not coming to Ireland. The like the Nickelodeon is not coming to Ireland. What comes to Ireland is like going to your friend's house and telling them a story you heard off somebody else who heard it off a cow, you know? And you kind of see that as well with Irish people where it's like, they never let the truth get in the way of a good story either. So it's told that tales be getting told. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry to embarrass you, but I, your book, The Rachel Incident was one

of my favorite books that I read last year. I loved it. I thought it was so great. And there's a lot of gossip in that book. And I wanted to ask you just like how you think about gossip in fiction, both like creating it and what role it plays in stories. Oh, that's such a good question. So like The Rachel Incident is definitely it's a book about gossip in many ways. So like in the opening chapter, this character runs into somebody from her hometown like years and years after she's left and is kind of reminded of this piece of gossip that existed about her in her hometown that that like

wasn't true but she had to live her life as though it were. But like I definitely think that's, like that is a frequent thing of like when someone tells you a piece of gossip and then the first thing that you think about is like how much of this can I change and then put into a novel? And I always do feel as well that like, you're far more likely to put to adopt a situation or a character that you know very little about kind of thing. So you can sort of fill in the gaps in your head. There has to be like a gap where intrigue can develop naturally, where you're just like, you know, because if I, if I know my friend and all of her problems and everything about her, then, then my brain isn't doing that natural thing where it fills in the gap with

sort of interesting lies. And so it's never gonna happen. Did you bring a gossip for me? I did bring a bit of gossip for you. So you know, I live in London, which is a place where people are so gossipy and every single person in London has a story about either the Royal Family or Mattie Healy. That's extremely funny to me because it's just like, ah, opulence, ah, trash. What side of the class divide I lay on in the kind of London social person.

And so obviously I can't repeat any of that gossip here because I'll be hung. Right. And so this is a story that I heard at a wedding and I loved it so much. So let me see if I can relate it to you here. Please. Okay, so I meet this girl at a wedding and even as I met her, she seemed like a kind of a recently recovered shy person, you know? Okay.

Like she's... Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. You know what I mean? She's like learned the tricks and things and like, and she's learned how to do it, but you can tell that like it's not something that comes like super easy to her. And like you could tell with this woman that like she was like, oh, she's like, so when I was a teenager, I was super shy. And I was like, yeah, I can guess. And I was like, immediately I can see that she was totally, this is again filling

in the gaps with interesting lies. I can totally see that she was the kind of girl who probably had like two best friends in school who she's told everything to, but nobody else in her year group knew she existed, you know, kind of thing. And she's like super studious and just keeps herself to herself and whatever. And in her, I guess what you'd call your senior year in her last year of school, her family moves. You can't move your beautiful shy child like in her final year of school. You're going to make her make new friends. That's not fair. Well, precisely, Kelsey, they're not going to make new friends. What they're going to make her do instead is commute. Oh, no.

Yeah, I know. Sad. Very sad for our shy girl. Let's just call her Andy. Poor Andy. Poor Andy. She used to live right in the middle of the city with all of her friends somewhere in the north of England.

And now she lives in like the fucking countryside, right? And like she has to get like a 45 minute long bus every day to go to school. Yeah. So, you know, she's getting up at six, she's getting up in the dark to go to school. She's coming home in the dark. Her senior year like sucks. Um, and then one day she is at the bus stop and a car drives up. And it is a boy from her year.

Huh. And you know how like every single year group has like, you know, you're sort of Russian nesting doll of popular kids and some of them are popular because they're attractive and some of them are popular because they're attractive and rich and some of them are popular because they're attractive and rich. And some of them are popular and this is the smallest nesting doll in the very middle. They're rich, they're attractive and they're really fucking nice. You know those people?

There's always like two. Yes. Let's call them. What's your favorite English name? Paul? Paul? I don't know. I don't know what names are English, Caroline. I thought you were going to say like Edward or something. I don't know. What are the Kings named? Henry, Harry?

It's Henry. And not only is Henry like beautiful, nice and rich. He's also like a Lord. This is crazy. So Teen Lord pulls up and is like Porsche or whatever and he's like, beep, beep, get in. I know you're you out of my school. I might as well drive you in. Like we're from the same place now. What?

Yeah. So he's like, do you want to lift into school? I guess this makes sense because Lords famously have land. Yeah. So he's like, do you want to lift into school? I guess this makes sense because Lords famously have land. Yeah. You can't have land in the middle of the city. Yeah. Turns out his like huge country pile is like five minutes from her place, from her like semi detached like house in the middle of nowhere. And, and so they, even though she's the shyest girl in the world, and even though he is hot,

rich and nice and a Lord, they have this relationship their whole senior year, where they're just going to school back and forth an hour every day. They're slowly building up their conversation and their connection every day and every evening. And then she goes off and she hangs out with her two friends who she loves. And like, then he goes off with his like big gang. And then at the end of the day, they go hang out again in the car. And that's their thing. And when they're towards the end of the school year,

he starts opening up to her about some serious stuff. And among the serious things he opens up to her about is that he is adopted. Okay. He's an adoptive teen lord. And like, yeah, so it's like, yeah, he's not like super public about it, but like his family, his parents couldn't have kids. Okay. He's very happy, but he tells her, he's like, you know, he's on the verge of turning 18 and he's like, I get to find out basically about my stuff, like about my mom and all

that kind of stuff. Oh, right. Right. Yeah. And he hasn't told anybody this. He's only told Shy Girl Andy, who he gets the car with every morning. Oh my God. Then he goes to the adoption place and he gets his birth mother's name.

Okay. And the name is like the most unbelievable general name you could possibly have. Right, right. It's like it's Sarah Smith. It's, you know, right, whatever. Like insert the most common name you've ever thought of here. And he sort of like takes a stab at trying to find her or whatever. But then he kind of gives up and he feels kind of awkward about it. And he just like, yeah, doesn't. And then school ends. Oh, and then they don't see each

other every day anymore. No. And I know and and and shy girl Andy is like, I miss my friend and they're texting quite a bit, but they don't have that routine anymore. Sure. And by the way, this is just this, they're millennials. So this is like 2008, 2009, I guess. The internet exists. It's becoming a thing. And so what Andy does is she gets this common ass fucking name. And she essentially looks for every Sarah Smith in England on Facebook. Oh my God. And she just goes through and she's like, she's a diligent student who's on summer holidays, who's graduated

high school. And she's just like going through, going through, being like, hello, this is a bit of a strange question, but in the late 80s, did you give birth to a son and give him up? For adoption. Did you? Because I know him. And anyway, eventually she strikes gold and she finds like the Sarah Smith.

That is crazy. Yeah, I know. It's wild that she found her. It's wild that she found her. It's been so many hours. I have no clue. Like it's nuts to me that this happened. And so she, at this point, Shy Girl, and he has a car of her own.

And she, she, um, she drives over to his house and she gives him the information. And she like logs into her Facebook on his computer and like, there's your mom. Like there she is. Like, oh my God. I know. And then, and, and so like him and his, him and and his mom are connecting or whatever. And they set a date to meet or whatever. And then the date comes where they're supposed to meet and he's supposed to go there. I'm actually getting chills. I'm in a Sheraton in Frankfurt right

now and I'm giving myself goosebumps. And so they set a date where he's going to drive over to his mom's house and meet her for the first time. And then he says to shy girl, Andy, will you drive me? Oh, because he doesn't want to want to drive alone. And he doesn't want to go alone. And they're driving and they're not saying a word. It is totally silent in the car. And then they get they get to the door and she waits in the car and she's like, go on, you know, you can go in. And then he walks up to the door and then he walks back and he gets back in the car and he says, I can't go in without you. And then they just, he just holds out his hand and they walk up to the mom's house holding hands. I love this movie.

I love, this is my favorite movie and Kelsey, Kelsey, they're married and they have a baby. She's the Lord now. That's so beautiful. You know what? She deserves it. She deserves it. She did the boot work, you know, she did it. She went to Facebook. She did the boot work, you know? She did it. She went to her Facebook.

She got a husband. Wow. It's like extremely funny to think about this from the perspective of like all the other rich girls who had a crush on him. Yes. Oh, my God. Why is he driving her? Why is he driving her? Just like fuming when they get engaged, right? Like...

And like, especially if like no one knew as well being like, who is she? That girl he drove to school. Serious? She doesn't even talk. Wow. Caroline, thank you for bringing me this story. I love it. It's so beautiful. Okay. My story is less happy, more chaos. You still want to hear it?

Absolutely, yes. Okay, great. Let's do it. I'm going to call our friend of a friend today, we're going to call her Jane. And Jane has had like a nice full life. She got married, she worked on the early internet with her husband, she was like a career woman in the 80s, right? Like big shoulder pads, even bigger hair. She and her husband, they had two kids, they grew up, the kids got married, they had kids themselves. Her husband died, which was terrible. And it was like very hard

and she hasn't moved on, but she's kept on living. And this whole entire life that she's lived, she lived in one single house. Okay. Okay, okay. Do you have any experience like living in a place and watching it change around you? Well, yes, because I've lived in London for 13 years and I was a writer that whole time. It's just like you find some place that's barely affordable to live where you can get okay coffee and then you're priced out within usually about two and a half years. And that's, yeah. So I have a lot of experience with this.

Yes. That is basically what has happened to Jane, but in slow motion, right? She moved into this house. It stayed the same. It's like a relic to her taste. Meanwhile, the whole neighborhood has turned over, right? Her friends moved out. All the cute little houses were torn down, more and more of the cars

in her neighborhood are like fancy luxury ass cars. But she's also like looking around and she's like, this is crazy. Like my house is now the smallest and cheapest one in the neighborhood. Like everything else is concrete and expensive because it's been rebuilt. I see. Yes. And she realized this really concretely because she got a new neighbor. Her new neighbor is named Celeste. Celeste is like in her 40s. She's beloved by everyone

in the neighborhood. And Jane knows this because Celeste used to live in a different house in the same neighborhood. She moved into a different house because she and her husband got divorced. Oh, okay. So we've got Jane who's a widow and we've got Celeste who's a divorcee, glamorous bunch. Exactly. Okay. The reason that Celeste and Charles got divorced is that Celeste wanted their house to be at 81 degrees Fahrenheit all the time, which is 27 degrees Celsius.

Thank you so much for that, by the way, because I would not have guessed what 81 degrees Fahrenheit all the time, which is 27 degrees Celsius. Thank you so much for that, by the way, because I would have not have guessed what 81 degrees Fahrenheit was at all. I really appreciate the international edit here. 27 degrees Celsius. 27 degrees Celsius. That's fucking crazy. That's mad. Hot. That's hot, hot, hot. She was like, I'm just cold all the time. What? Eat some soup, Celeste. That's nice. And her husband, Charles, wanted their house to be a normal fucking temperature. Yeah.

Like not even cold. He was just like, I want it to be not 27 degrees Celsius in here. Do you believe that this is the real reason why they got divorced? No, I believe it is endemic to something else in Celeste's personality that is like unfixable possibly. I feel like, you know, she's one of these people who like in all aspects of their shared life together, Celeste's comfort is the most important thing, then maybe that's what destroyed their relationship. I love that theory. This is like, it's ridiculous to be like, we got divorced because she wants our house to be super, super hot,

but it's like the only thing either of them ever says, right? Like, that is the party line. They're like, we got divorced because of this. We're so early in the story and this is so nuts. I know. Okay. So imagine Jane's house, right? Jane's our widow. And then right on the right of her house is Celeste. OK? And on the left of Jane's house is a woman named Muffy. Muffy.

Right. Sure. And Muffy and Celeste are best friends. OK. OK. All right. I see. And Jane, our old lady lives in the middle, just watching Muffy and Celeste like walk

back and forth to each other's houses, carrying wine, carrying snacks, you know, gabbing, gabbing, gabbing. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. We've already talked about how when you see strangers or people that you only know some details of, you kind of like fill in details that you have made up. What do you think that you might do with this friendship? Oh, they're in love, obviously.

That's probably what I would do too. I would be like, she left her husband for Buffy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, the temperature thing is like a complete lie and you know, Celeste is gay and I'm happy for her. I love that premise. In Jane's mind, she's like, Celeste and Muffy are the kind of friends who like, they drink, they watch below deck, they talk about how they wish they could have

a yacht. They don't know anything about each other. They don't like each other actually. That's so crazy. Jane's another. I love this. Jane believes this because she really likes Muffy and she does not like Celeste. Celeste is always wearing like one sweater and then she's wearing like another sweater tied around her shoulders because she's so cold. Celeste is like the kind of woman that's always wearing a lot of those like big bangles and like has a really sleek bob.

Oh, okay. So it's giving kind of like a 90s art gallery type of woman? Totally. Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. The real reason that Jane doesn't like Celeste though, is that Celeste will not stop talking about her damn fig. Excuse me? As in like she's got a fig tree or something?

Or is she proud of it? Is that what it is? Great thought, wrong. It's not the fruit, it's not figs the tree. It is a sculpture, a bronze cast sculpture of a really big fig that is split in half. Every detail is more bizarre than the next calcium. What the fuck? This is my...

I know. Try to picture this fig, right? It's made of bronze. It's split in half. It's very, very large. Like think like sculpture garden large, like each half of the fig is like the size of a person. And it's metal and shiny. And this fig slash artwork is titled, The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Oh, okay. It is a quote, statement on gender. Oh.

What is the statement? We don't really know. Do you have any idea what this statement could be? Hang on, isn't there something quite specific about the way figs are made that's quite disgusting, right? Like, there's this famous, it's like flies, wasps lay eggs and die in there or some shit. It's like really gross. It's like you never want to eat anything with figs in it again after you've heard it. Not because it's cruel, but more because

it's gross. You think that that is the statement on gender? I mean, that's the only thing I've ever heard about figs? They do look like balls because the fig is split in half and it's kind of round. They look like balls. They're big and gold. They're a statement on gender and they are the knowledge of good and evil. The real thing is that Celeste, like this fig sculpture is currently in Charles's backyard. Charles her ex-husband.

The man she's divorced. Yes. Because if he's not, doesn't like his house hot enough. Yes. Exactly. So Celeste loved living by the fig. She loved looking at it. She loved when it was reflecting the sun or something. And so she wanted to take it in the divorce. But because it was so heavy, it's giant and made of metal.

So you need a whole group of guys and like construction equipment to move it. Okay. Like that might be why she didn't take it or maybe she didn't take it because like Charles held on to it forever, like out of spite. But the fig is at Charles house and she wants the fig to be with her. Okay. As is her right. Jane knows all of these things because it's all Celeste ever talks about and Jane does not care about this. This is all kind of feeding into as well the kind of the upification of this neighborhood that these are like, like Jane is like, I've raised my family here and like, they're not my cares and concerns. They're Your weird modern art divorce problem. Yes, exactly. Jane's like, I had real problems when I was younger

that weren't where is my giant fig? Why isn't it at my fancy house? Yeah. So Jane dislikes her neighbor Celeste because of this fig problem. And because she is filled with a whimsy that only rich people can have. Right. But she likes Muffy.

Right. Because she's like, Muffy is kind, she has a really big laugh, and she never ever ever talks about figs. Such an important quality a neighbor. Okay, I now understand your earlier thing because like I definitely I do have that thing where there's these two friends and you think one of them is just a stunner and you love hanging out with her and the other one you're like, what? And so then you do invent in your head, you're like, oh, there must be some kind of fairy

bargain in place or like perhaps charitable work going on. Right. You're like, the friend that I like must have been like trapped in a witch's spell in order to be friends with this other woman who I dislike. Jane also likes Muffy because Muffy started dating this like younger hot man and the younger hot man does all of their yard work with no shirt. Lovely. Lovely stuff. He's like sipping from the garden hose, throwing his hair back. He's always like hammering stuff.

Who knows what? He like has a push lawnmower. He's out there for hours. And Jane is like a little bit of a horn dog. So she's like, I appreciate this. Like thank you for having this hot boyfriend for me. Very kind and thoughtful. Very nice.

Love Muffy. Yeah. And Muffy reminds Jane of like a younger her, because Muffy also like wants her house to be really nice, wants her garden to be really nice. And in particular, Muffy has a massive herb garden of like potted plants that she babies. She like brings them inside in the winter, she prunes them every day, she waters them constantly, she like never lets her young hot boyfriend touch them because they have to be like perfect. Okay.

So one day Jane's out, she's on her little morning walk right around the neighborhood, she runs into Muffy. She's like, what's up Muffy? Like what's going on with you? And Muffy's like, oh my God, me and my hot boyfriend are going on vacation to Italy or whatever to be beautiful for two weeks. And Jane in her head is like, that's so sad that your hot boyfriend is leaving and I won't get to

see him. But out loud, she's like, that's so nice. I'm so happy for you. Jane is also like, it's August. So it's really hot outside. And she's like concerned because she knows that Muffy loves her herb garden. So she's like, Oh, do you want me to water it while you're gone? Sure. Yeah. And Muffy is like, oh my god, you're so sweet. But no, I already asked Celeste to do it. So you don't need to worry about it at all. Okay. Are you worried? I'm worried. Yeah. She's a feckless woman. I don't think she's going to keep it. I think she's self-involved and she's going to be negligent in her duties. Jane is like, okay, no problem. But then Muffy goes uptown and like, have you ever watched

basil when it like doesn't get watered? Yeah, I buy it very frequently and I watch it wilt almost instantly. If you don't use that whole packet up in the day, it's gone. Yeah, it goes black. Yes. And if it's like outside, it also like just like starts to droop really badly, right? And the leaves like go yellow and then it's like very gross and sad. And it's summer and it's hot and Jane is watching out her window while Muffy is out of town that within a single 24 hour period, the basil is like wilted over. Can I just say this is far too much effort for an incredibly cheap supermarket plant.

Do you mean what I mean? Like it's not worth it. It's just not. If you're a Jane, do you go water the basil? Oh, this is such a tough one. It's a real Sophie's choice because like if she lets it die, then she can, then this friendship that she despises will be over probably. And then Muffy can be her main friend.

However, she loves Muffy and she doesn't want her thing to die. However, Celeste sucks and will definitely take the credit for the living basil. Yes. But Jane's too classy to say that was me watering it. So are you doing it or no? Where did you end up? Me myself, I hate to garden. I would watch it die.

And I'm also full of spite. And I would just like, now Muffy's my friend. Jane is also full of spite because Jane is like, you know what, I offered to water it. And Muffy explicitly told me, no, Celeste has got it. And so she watches out her window as the cilantro withers and the mint burns and the thyme becomes crunchy and the rosemary gets all fried and everything burns. Christ. It's awful.

You're not intervening at any point in this. You're just going to watch the herb garden turn to dust. Oh, you know what I would say to Celeste, listen, the plants are dying. I believe this is your remit Celeste. I think that's a really good idea except that Jane can't talk to Celeste because if she tries to talk to her at all, she just talks about the fig again. So there's like no point. And Jane has really had it up to here with the fig. So yeah, when I first heard this story, I was like, of course you go water the herb

garden. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, no, I'm so petty. And like, if I don't like the friend that's supposed to water it, like it's just an herb garden. Yeah. I mean, if it was a cat not being fed or a dog not being walked, that would be totally different. Right. But ultimately, I don't give a fuck about herbs.

Jane waits. She does not water the garden. It all dies. At the end of two weeks, Muffy comes home and Jane is like, peddly, like sitting by the window window because she is like, Muffy's gonna freak, right? She's like, there's gonna be some kind of blow up. They're gonna yell, like, they'll never be friends again, and then Muffy will be my friend. DELICIOUS. But instead, Muffy just like, sees the herb garden and then goes inside.

OK. And then like, a few days later, Jane sees the hunky boyfriend out there just like, pulling out all the dead, Jane sees the hunky boyfriend out there just like pulling out all the dead herbs. Oh, hunky boyfriend. So she's like, she's like sad. Jane's like, this is very sad.

The herbs are all dead. She's like, but also Celeste has not gone over to Muffy's house at all since Muffy got back. Ah. So she's like, maybe, maybe my evil plan is working. Yes. So perhaps some Kurt text messages were exchanged. What do you imagine was exchanged? Hey, babe, comma, just checking. Just got back from the trip. Notice that the herb garden

didn't seem to get much of a look in this summer. I thought you were supposed to water it. Did something happen? No exit at the end. I love that. I imagine that this is what happened. Yes. Jane has no idea.

She doesn't know what's happening via text message, and she doesn't really see either of them out the next few days. So she's like, I don't know what's going on. My neighbors are maybe fighting. Hopefully they're never going to be friends again. But like, I don't know. She goes for her walk and she sees Celeste. You hate Celeste, famously, but you want to know what's going on with Muffy. Do you like stop and try to talk to her? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Fake as shit. Yeah. 100%. Like, oh my God, hi. Yeah. Like Muffy's back in the great eight life grand. How was her trip? I have no chance to catch up with her yet, but you see her all the time. Damn. Smooth. Yeah. Smooth as eggs. Bitty.

Jane is like, does not even have time to consider whether she wants to talk to Celeste or not because the thing is you don't have free will with Celeste. Celeste is coming to talk to you. That's just like how she is because she has things to say. Sure, sure, sure, sure. All the things she has to say are about the fig. Girl. Celeste is like, I've got updates.

My ex-husband has gotten engaged to a much younger woman and this woman does not like the fig. Can you believe that? And Jane is like, yes. Yes and yes. This does not stop Celeste. Celeste is like, yeah, you know, he also like demanded that I come get the fig from his house and pay him the original cost of it and that I only have two weeks to do it or he's going to sell it. Okay, that is harsh.

Jane is like, I don't care. In her heart, she's like, I hate Celeste. I hate this stupid fig. Like, this is not worth my time. She's like, have you talked to Muffy? And Celeste is like, no, but trying to talk more about her fig. And Jane is like, goodbye, Celeste. Goodbye, Celeste. And she goes home. How are, now I'm like, how are Muffy and Celeste friends? I don't get it at all. Jane has forgotten all about this conversation, but at the end of two weeks, suddenly there is a big truck in front of her house with a bunch of big muscly men and on the back of the truck is the fig on like a palette.

Okay. Okay. It's a comment on gender. Okay. Yes. And Jane is like, oh my God, I'm going to have to look at this fig all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Forever. Her attention was on the wrong thing. She shouldn't have been plodding about the herb garden. She should have been plodding with the husband about destroying the figs. Exactly. You've got to get it into some kind of like metal melter. Yeah. Yeah. Smell the figs.

It's the only thing to be done. Exactly. Jane is outside. She's watching this man, you know, greeting the construction workers. He's wearing a hard hat. He has a lip board. He takes the hard hat off and she's like, oh my God, hot boyfriend. And then hot boyfriend is pointing not at Celeste's yard, but at Muffy's. Oh my fucking God. That's incredible. Jane is like, this is crazy.

She's like, obviously I'm outside. I'm paying attention. I'm eavesdropping. She watches like a forklift, you know, raise the metal fig and start to like drive it toward Muffy's house. And at this point, Celeste comes like running out of her house and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you have the wrong house. My house is over there. And the construction workers are like, you know, they're like looking

at their paper. They're like, well, no, like the address we have is that address. We don't have your address. And Celeste is like, no, no, no, no, no, it's my fig. I picked it out. She's like, you know, rattling off stats, like it would be on like a fucking gallery thing where she's like, the artist is this, he was born here and this year, these are the dimensions of the fig, like this is the year it was created. These are the dimensions of the fig. Yeah. The construction workers are like, listen, lady, we don't care about your fig facts. We were hired to drop them off over here. And then they begin to drive the fig into Muffy's backyard.

Muffy bought the figs. Oh my god. You devious bitch Muffy. I love it. Huge news. I wrote a whole book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called You Didn't Hear This From Me and I'm so, so proud of it. It's about how we use gossip. It's about Britney Spears and West Elm Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. And it's so, so fun. And I think it's really good. It comes out February 11th in hardback and a sexy audio book, which I read. You can buy it wherever you get books. You can go to kelseymckinneybook.com to see all the retailers

where you could possibly buy a book from and to buy tickets for the upcoming book tour, which will be really fun and really exciting. That's Kelsey McKinney book.com. We want to tell you about a headgum podcast we think you're going to love. Thanks Dad with Ego Wodum. You may know Ego from shows like Saturday Night Live and Peacock's new series Mr. Throwback. But what you may not know is that she was raised by a single mom, might have daddy issues, and she suspects you might too. On Thanks Dad, Eggo invites guests to be her

dad for the day and has funny heartfelt conversations with them about their experiences with their own dads and as parents themselves. Guests on this season include dads like Bill Burr, Andy Cohen, Adam Pally, Kenan Thompson, Ty Burrell, Tim Meadows, and more. Each episode wraps up with her getting practical advice from her guests. Things like how to get the best deal when buying a house, how to know when you found the one, and how to perfect your jump shot. Subscribe to Thanks Dad on Spotify, Apple podcasts, podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday. This creates chaos. Celeste is like on the phone. Jane assumes she's on the phone with Charles

and Celeste is yelling. She's like, you snake, you absolute snake. You know I only cared about the figs. Meanwhile, the construction workers are checking up on a concrete platform. They pour God knows when for the fig to be on. Muffy comes out of the house and Celeste tone immediately changes and she begins to plead. She's like, Muffy comes out of the house and Celeste immediately changes and she begins to plead. She's like, Muffy, you know I love these. Charles is the enemy. You cannot collude with him. She's like, pick me, choose me, give Fig to me. Pick me, choose me, give Fig to me. Oh my God. But this really does prove that like, Jane was Muffy's true friend all along. Because like this is what Jane would do. Like they're both fueled by spite and nice gardening.

Like that's, and hot men, that's what they share. Yes. Muffy is standing with her arms like crossed and she's like, Celeste, do you remember what I asked you to do when I went on vacation? And Celeste is like, water your herb garden? And Muffy's like, yes. And you didn't do that. And Celeste is like, yes, I did. I went every night, late at night, and I watered them. No, you didn't, you dumb bitch.

No, you did not. And Muffy is like, they all died. And Celeste is like, well, I don't. And Muffy is just like, I can't, like, I'm not having this conversation anymore. Like we're done here. And Celeste is like, but what about my fig? Like I love it so much. And Muffy's like, well, I love figs too.

And I bought the fig right this way, gentlemen. And she shows the construction workers where to put them. Oh my God, that's so fucking evil. I love that. At this point, Celeste freaks out. She's like in front of the forklift. She has to be restrained by the hot boyfriend. Jane is like, this is the most interesting thing to happen to this neighborhood in years. Uh-huh. Oh my God. To steal another woman's fig. To steal? And maybe this was the expression on gender all along, you know? Wow, that really makes you think.

Makes you think. Wow. After this whole event, the next day the hot boyfriend sets up a giant tent in the backyard. And Jane is like, this is terrible. Now I can't see the hot boyfriend anymore. I have no idea what's going on over there. Like he's inside the tent. Oh no. And then there's a week where nothing happens. And this is where Jane realizes she has a big problem.

Because the big fight, this like huge blow up fight happened very conveniently in her front yard at full volume. Sure. But also she hears people in the neighborhood talking about like Instagram posts, next door posts and Jane doesn't know how to get to those things. Oh, because she's no lady. What do you think she should do here? Call her son.

She really wants to know what's going on. It feels like Jane is ready to graduate to that part of her life where she is on various social media platforms all day every day. So now is the time to invest, I think. Jane is like, this is petty drama. You know who loves petty drama? Teens. So she's like, I'll invite my teenage granddaughter over to spend the weekend. I'll get her takeout food and then

I'll tell her this whole saga. And then she'll probably help me find out what's going on online. Oh, delicious. I love it. Lovely bonding. This works perfectly. The teen comes over, she eats her takeout. She's like, well, what's happening now? And Jane's like, I don't know. It's all online and I can't see it. The teen within like minutes has all of this stuff pulled up, right? She has like the Instagrams up, she has posts up.

She begins to show Jane specific posts about this. The first post she shows is from the artist who made the fig. His widow has posted a photo of the fig with a caption that's like, this fig is by my late husband and the location of the piece as the private collection of Celeste Lastname. Motherfucking hell. Wow. Wow. I really thought that, like, the story was just going to end on Muffy bought the figs, but there's a whole other thing going on now. There's more, baby. It's wheels within wheels.

Celeste is posting, like, an endless amount of, like, photos of her fig, posts about how sad she is about her fig, posts about how Muffy, like, stole her fig. Oh my God, she spent, like, a year and a half not having that fig. And she was also given a deadline to buy the fig. I know. Like hawk one of your bangles and just buy the fig back. The granddaughter is like, we don't need to look at this page because it's just like Muffy's boyfriend posting thirst traps. And Jane's like, what's a thirst trap?

And then her granddaughter shows her one of the posts and she's like, oh, I know, I understand. Yes, I love this. Thank you. Love it. Muffy's posts are mostly about her hot boyfriend, but there is also a picture that's like a flyer for what is titled her herb garden relaunch party. Oh my god. And it has like a date and a time and it has a picture of the fig on it.

These people are fucked. These people are fucked! These are people, like it's just like women in their 40s who were just trading fake and herb drama. This is what happens when you have too much money, right? Like it's like none of these problems are real. Like herbs are so easy to buy at the supermarket. Like even I think Muffy's gone too far on this one.

You do. Yeah, before I was like Team Muffy, Boo Celeste, and now I just think both these ladies are tapped in the head. Jane's granddaughter is like, we have to go to the party. We're going to the herb garden relaunch party. And Jane's like, well, we weren't invited. And the teen granddaughter is like, but it's posted on Instagram publicly. Like we can go.

Do you think that that's true? Do you think they can go? I'm a little confused slash concerned why Jane isn't being, why isn't Jane being kept abreast offline? Because it seemed like she was pretty tight with Muffy for a time there, like enough so that she wanted to replace Celeste entirely. So like, it seems like she's fallen out of contact with both of these women and her wider neighborhood. So I'm like, what's, why isn't, yeah, hmm. Is Jane catching some flack that she doesn't even know she's catching? Jane is like, I'm old fashioned, we're not showing up at this woman's house without being invited to the party. Sure. She's like, but I will call Muffy and ask her.

And the granddaughter's like, great. So Jane calls Muffy and she's like, Muffy, what's up with this giant tent in your backyard? Cause there is a huge tent there. And Muffy's like, oh my God, I haven't seen you. That's crazy. Like, where have you been? And Jane's like, I've been at my house.

Like I'm always at my house. And Muffy's like, oh, okay. Well, so sorry I haven't seen you, but I'm having this huge herb garden party. I'm relaunching my herb garden tomorrow. If you want to swing by, I would love to have you. And Jane's like, great. Great.

I'm going to the relaunch of an herb garden. There was a time when it used to be shocking to be invited to a dog's birthday party. And this is so like several rungs below that. They go over there. The party is like beautiful. The tent has been removed from the backyard and now Jane can see that like a huge transformation has taken place. Like the new herb garden has been planted. It's like twice as big. It has little like handmade signs. Muffy has made herby cocktails. There's like little appetizers, it's like very lovely little party. And also there is now art everywhere. Like not only are the figs there and like lit from

below with little spotlights, there's also like a ton of other garden themed art. There's like a giant rosemary sprig and like a concrete trowel sculpture and like all this shit. Yes. Okay. So she has, not only has she bought these figs out from under her former best friend who did not tend her herb garden correctly or even at all. Yes. She has caught flak from the artist's widow and now she is trying to establish an art collecting brand in order to sort of like legitimize the fact that she's stolen another woman's figs.

Bingo. All correct. Oh my fucking God. Shane is like, let's go stand next to Muffy, like to her granddaughter. So they're like talking to Muffy and Muffy is like talking about all of this art with the air of someone who has bought art for decades. Right?

She's like, oh, I know all about art. I love buying these things. It's very much one of those things where she's talking about the finances of buying art more than the actual art. She's talking about dealers and acquisitions and purchase prices and all of this stuff. All right. Okay. And Jane is just like, what is going on?

This is crazy. At this point, All right, okay. And Jane is just like, what is going on? This is crazy. At this point, Celeste shows up. She is dressed beautifully, overdressed, one might say. And she goes up directly to Muffy, and she's like, how much did you pay for the thing? I will buy it off of you. Oh my God, what? And Muffy is like, this is a party?

And no, I don't want to sell them. Yeah. And Celeste is like, what do you want for them? Do you want $50,000? $50,000? $50,000. $50,000. What? Isn't that like a nurse's income? Yes. It's like more than a teacher makes. It's like an hideous disgusting things. They look like balls. Buffy is like, no. Like, I like the figs. I paid for them. I had this whole like reinforced concrete platform built so that they could sit on it. Like I'm not selling them. Uh huh. Uh huh.

Guess who else is here at this party? It's Celeste's ex-husband. And his much younger wife who likes an even temperature. Yes. He comes over and he's like, Celeste, stop it. I gave you two weeks and you didn't buy them. Yeah. Like you had the first option. I don't know what you're doing here. And Celeste freaks out. She's like, you stole my fig.

You stole everything. And Charles like kind of sighs and is like, I don't understand where this is coming from. Like I'm the one who bought the figs. You never even liked the sculpture. Excuse me? What? They were Charles' figs? Charles' precious figs? We're almost at the end.

What do you think? How are you feeling? I feel sick. I'm sick. The amount of money and waste in the story is sick. And it's like, like, does Celeste even know who she is? Like, she's just, it's like she, she, she had this husband and she was never the right temperature. And he loved the figs. And then she became fixated. She's like, what's

it like over a year she's been just like banging on about these figs and how much she loves them and how it is her one desire to get them back. And she didn't even like them that much. Yes. Muffy and Jane and Jane's granddaughter are all like, what? What? Like, this woman has been going on and on and on about these fucking figs for a year. Yeah.

Celeste's ex-husband is like, it was only like after we got divorced that she started to care about it. Right. Oh God. And Celeste is like, this isn't true. Like they're going back and back and forth. They are now having this fight publicly, which means that this is the point where we find out that it was not about the house temperature.

Okay. What was it about, Kelsey? Thank you for asking. It is about the fact that Charles made a series of very, very bad investments. He put most of their money into an eco dance resort, and he also put a lot of money into some kind of omni-directional treadmill for VR video games. Okay. omnidirectional treadmill for VR video games, okay? Both of these things sound stupid because they are, and so neither of them took off. And so the thing is, these people were no longer rich. They were house poor.

So like when she asked for a divorce, she used her settlement money to buy this new house in the neighborhood, expecting there would be more money down the road and then there was like no more money. So it's not that she ever wanted the fig. The fig was like a pawn. It's like a pettiness prop. Like she wants it because she wants to sell it to have money to hurt Charles. Oh, shit. It was never about the figs. Holy crap. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So then how was Celeste trying to get, trying to give $50,000 to Muffy when she doesn't have that kind of money? Bingo. What she was trying to do is figure out how much Muffy paid for it so that she could then get half that money from Charles. So at this point she turns to Muffy and she's

like, just tell me how much you paid for it. Like, did you pay 50? Did you pay 75? Did you pay a hundred thousand dollars? Like, what did you pay for this fig? Holy fuck. Muffy's like, oh no, I paid ten thousand dollars. Wow, a real steal these figs. Celeste loses her mind because she's like, he gave it to Muffy for cheap to get rid of it. Oh, wow. What a tale. Fuck me. That's so good. We're at the very end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? I just I honestly just feel like like an incredible magic trick has been like pulled on me and that like I was looking in the wrong place the whole time. And I thought this was a story of just two rich bitches who had nothing else to do, who were being petty and funny. But there's so much more. It's Charles is broke.

He's flat broke. And so is Celeste. And they're trying to maintain this weird fucking, it's very Desperate Housewives. It's very turn of the very Desperate Housewives. It's very like turn of the century Desperate Housewives. It's also like Victorian, the lost of a family fortune. Yes. And the idea of the one sapphire in the family. It's so crazy. And they got the artist's widow involved. That poor woman is grieving. Leave her out of it. Fuck.

This is huge. Whose side are you on? Who do you like still? I love Jane still. All these other people. Yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, Jane should sort of have some kind of

a tarot affair with the hot boyfriend because I don't like the idea of him being caught up in this. I think he's too pure. Do you want the final updates I have? Yes. Very final. Yes. The very final updates I have for you are that after all of this bickering, Jane realized that she was kind of in no man's land between two sides of a war, right?

Between Celeste and Muffy. And she kind of realized when this happened, she was like, oh, maybe I didn't really ever like Muffy. Maybe I just liked her hot boyfriend, right? Like maybe I didn't even really want to be her friend either. Maybe they deserve each other. And so she's like, you know what? It's time for me to move. And so Jane sold her house for a huge profit and she moved and she never had to think about any of these people ever again. And now Jane is rich. And now Jane is kind of rich.

And she can buy all the things she likes. What a story. So she's just like, I've had it with these hoes. Bye. Like fuck. She's like, that's enough. Goodbye to the hot boyfriend. God, and those women are just still out there somewhere scheming.

You know what I mean? Like, yes, I do think there are people in this world who like, they can't live unless there's a scheme going, you know, they're like, they're like running some kind of private con within their whole life. But like, but to them, it's not even a con, it's just some kind of weird form of contorted justice. They just think they just deserve this thing. It's so fucked up. The schemes, the schemes.

Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you. I'm so honored. I really think this is up there. If there was a normal gossip, a MoMA for normal gossip. Power rankings. Yeah, the Noga or whatever. If there was a museum, there would be that chair with the vagina print on it, the bird lamp and this fig. And I feel so proud to be part of it.

Wow. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defactor.com, or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normal gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujon Loughlin, Ozzy Linus Goodman, and Jay Toll Vieira. Justin

Ellis is Defector's project editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Coon are Defector's business guys. Alex Sujon Loughlin is Defector's supervising producer. Tom Lay is our editor-in-chief. Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuade runs our merch store which you can find at NormalGossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. And thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandon Jensen, Sabrina Imler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Rado, David Roth, Katherine Xu, Jasper Wang, Israel Dara Mola, and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Nomar Gossip is a collectively owned subscriber based media company.

No More Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. No More Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Carrie and remember, you did not hear this from me. Thank you.