Normal Gossip - Murder Binders and Unthinkable Burgers with Mariah Smith

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Mariah Smith joins us for a true crime adventure. PSA: This is the EIGHTH of ten episodes this season! Get your tickets to the Normal Gossip live tour here. Follow Mariah on IG @mariahmariahmariah You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jae Towle Vieira is our production assistant. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Credits recorded by Sarah King.

Alex, do you think that we should tell them our little secret? I think we should. Our secret is that we are going on tour this summer. Woo! We're going to be sharing a new gossip story with you all, but this time live on a stage. There will be special guests and glow sticks and games. It's going to be so messy. You can get tickets at normalgossiplive.com.

And bring your secrets. Because we're going to read them. Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, I am so excited to have with me Mariah Smith. Mariah is a comedian, producer, writer, and host.

She has bylines in The New York Times, Time Magazine, Gawker, New York Magazine, Cosmopolitan, and many other places. Currently, she's a writer and producer on Freeform's Grown-ish, host of the Sony podcast Spectacle, and along with her sisters, she co-host Smith's Sisters Live, a daily, serious XM show on radio, Andy. Mariah, welcome! Hi! Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited. I'm so happy you're here. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm a little nervous. I will get a little too passionate about things we'll discuss. Oh, tell me why. Because I really have strong opinions on people I don't know or don't even care to know.

That's good. Yeah. That's the point. Yeah, I know. And I'm excited. But as you mentioned, I host a show with my sisters, and they always say, I am liable to get us canceled. So I don't want to put the same fate onto your fabulous words.

Well, luckily, no one knows who these people are. So feel free to go hard. Okay, good. Do you want to start with our classic question and tell me what your relationship with Gossip is? My relationship with Gossip is that I love it. To me, that's my love language is getting in people's business. I hate liars.

I hate things that I don't know. And I need to get to the bottom of everything, whether it's your divorce or when Kylie Jenner were cycled of when she got pregnant. So I need to know everything. Yeah, I feel like you should tell the listeners who might not know about keeping up with the continuity errors, because I feel like that is a form of gossip in a way. Can you tell them what you did and why you do it and how that is related? Yeah.

So I work in TV by trade, and when I got out of college, I was working on the reboot of The Best Week Ever as a production assistant, and we were assigned shows, and I would watch the Steve Harvey show, which literally almost killed me and keeping up with the Kardashians. And I had been watching the Kardashians prior to that. I'm saluting because that's brave, extremely brave. But I kept noticing on the Kardashians, I was like, there are things that aren't lining up. I needed to just get something on paper to understand what I was seeing, to be able to

best explain to friends and family, like these women are filming stuff out of order. She wasn't pregnant in this scene, but she was pregnant in the next scene, saying she had all this crazy stuff. So then I posted on Tumblr just some screenshots, whatever, emailed it to friends, thought five people would look at it. By the end of the week, like 10,000 people had looked at it, so I kept doing it. And honestly, what I loved is when I did it because my main thing was I do hate liars. I hate them.

I just like figuring out who's lying. Yeah. When I was younger, I would always, my dad called me the eyes and ears for him for my older sister who was in middle school. Oh, no. I would always tell him like, oh, Rachel is in the stairwell with Ryan this afternoon, and that's her best friend, Adra, and then she, and it started by being a snitch, but I thought it was just I was doing the Lord's work.

Yeah. And so, yeah, so that blog turned into keeping up with the continuity errors, which ran on like Gawker, Jezebel, and then the cut. And then I just started writing entertainment and celebrity news, and now I write for TV. It's funny because I feel like the Kardashians, obviously, have like created an entire career off of being able to control like tabloid gossip and being able to plant things. And so I I loved your blogs because I always found it so interesting to say, like, they're trying to control the narrative and you can see them do it.

Like if you're just looking close enough, you can see how they're like planting this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And it's I mean, I have no issue with it. I just want to know, like I I enjoy the content, obviously, but I don't want to be ignorant to how I'm getting it. So what are your methods for investigating lies? Tell me.

So for me, it's looking at patterns of behavior. And when I notice even slight changes in those patterns, my little ears and eyes perk up and I'm like, OK, we got something to watch. And it's almost like figuring out even, you know, your posting habits on social, your if I'm at work with you, like even what time of day you're coming in or just how you're sitting in your chair, your stature, how how this tone of your voice or the volume of your voice at any given moment. Like I just am very in tune to cues, I guess, and my real life.

But what celebrities, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors. It's a lot of like what stories are we putting forward? Like what days are you releasing stories? As many people know, like, why are you over posting before? Yeah, he is happening. Like it's just a lot of stuff like that and like looking at the cues that now, thankfully, a lot of people have learned. It's a gift in the curse, I like to say, because I really it's my as much as I love it.

I wish I didn't enjoy being in people's business as much. Because I know why I wouldn't be I would. I could be able to read a book one day. I could know many things that are learned a language. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Why do you think you're so like obviously the sociology classes help you become like more aware of the ways in which people behave? But it sounds like the cue observance and like pattern tracking is like innate inside your body.

Why do you think that is? I would say that I mean, it's funny because not to get too deep. I am OCD and dyslexic. So I have a hyper focus on a lot of certain things. Yeah. And I think that that's probably part of it. And I'm also a little sister. I'm the youngest wanted to be overly aware of what my sisters were doing and how that how my parents will respond to their actions to perform.

How I should go about living my own life and whether I have to, you know, drink or do whatever. Like, how did they do it? What did they do wrong? What can I do better? How can I do these? So I think that's partially part of it. And again, I'm just nosy. Like I was born to see as a kid, my parents and family called me Harriet the spy.

I think I used to have I had a detective era where everyone who came into my room had to be fingerprinted because I have like something to do. And I used to carry I used to carry latex gloves in my purse as a child in case they came across a crime scene. So a lot of it comes from just I don't know, mental illness. I I love that. I actually had completely forgotten that I was also obsessed with Harriet the spy. Like I had like blocked out trying to draw that little thing on my foot

and press it up against my sister's foot. Right. Like I had like blocked that entirely out of my memory. But there is like kind of a close, a very thin paper thin line between like being a gossip and being an amateur investigator. Yes, yes, because it does take a lot of work to build a case and evidence about what you're talking about. And even as a journalist, I'm like, I like to with continuity errors, especially with your glam, their social, their paparazzi, all these things.

So it's like putting this web together to find what the true narrative is. And listen, in another life, I would love to be a detective. I just don't want to be bothered with that that at all. Yeah, I'm not trying to deal with you. Always have to get dressed if you're a detective. Also, you can't do it on your couch. Yeah, that's not remote work. I mean, so hybrid position now.

Give me a break. I'm not doing that. Yeah, if it's sunny, I need to be sitting outside. I can't be like going into your apartment to see who broke it. Questioning. Yeah. No, no, thank you. What what trends and slight pattern adjustments do you have your eye on currently? Like, are you watching any celebrities? Any mutual friends?

Any who is under your microscope? There are quite a few. The one that's really, really, really Wayne heavy on my spirit is Chloe Kardashian and Tristan Thompson. OK, and I sort of knew, unfortunately, that when his mother passed last year, there was going to be a shift, even though they had broken up and he had yet another child out of their essential wedlock.

And it's just all these little things, him being signed to the Lakers, him buying a home down the street from her. She's doing basically the same thing, but a little bit louder. So before they broke up last time, they were low key still together and people didn't know how she's being more public with showing him and more of like, he's a friend, he's the father, he's the co-parent of all that. But it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, you're not buying it. You're not buying it. I'm not buying it. And so I'm waiting to see what that roll out is going to be. And their teaser for their new season of the show didn't have much information about anything. Yeah, I think that's going to be the main storyline because people aren't going to, if they lead with that, people are going to have a lot to say.

But if they slip it in, it'll be a little bit more organic. Yeah, why blow a news cycle on a preview? Exactly. That's that's dumb. So I'm like, I'm very excited. Well, not excited because I really that it troubles me so deeply. But you're zoned in. I'm zoned in. I'm absolutely in it. I love that. That's incredible.

OK, you ready to gossip? I'm ready to gossip. OK, let's get into it. Neighbors are a funny thing. You live next to them. You share driveways with them. You're intimately entwined with each other's lives. For today's story, we're going to explore one particular neighborhood. Think historic American city in the northeast.

Brick row homes, light like honey. Cobblestones. Buntings. All summer long, you can hear the ice cream trucks jingle. There are fireworks going off every night. Tiny streets and alleys and cut-throughs. Sounds cute, right? But you can imagine that at night, it's less cute.

Shadows everywhere. The sounds of people in houses seeping out. Your neighbors so close, they can see in your windows. It's easy for a girl to get paranoid here. From defective media, this is normal gossip. And I'm your host, Kelsey McKinney. I mean, I'm sorry. I I love that pivot.

My God, thank you. Thank you. Ah, the true crime rhymes are real. Let's get to it. This is great. I've just been at night and it's less cute. Are you scared? I am. I'm actually quite spooked.

Oh, OK. Well, don't worry, because right now in our story, it's a daytime. Oh, great. OK. So it's cute. Don't panic. It's cute still. Not only is it daytime, it's 4th of July. Oh. Oh, why are you saying that? Why? Because I feel like people get crazy on 4th of July.

Why? I don't. I mean, I don't want to talk bad about your people, but white people love it. That's true. Yeah. So I don't think my fault is going to happen. Listen, potato salad, you know, it makes people crazy. Yeah, it's fine. There you go. OK, our friend of a friend this week, her name is Katia.

She lives down one of these like little tiny streets and her house backs up to a tiny one way street. So it's like almost an alley. So the houses on one side of the street face the alley and the other side, the house is back up to the street. Does that make sense? Right. Yes. Uh huh. Uh huh. There's like 20 total houses that are on this little tiny street. And every year they have an annual 4th of July barbecue.

There's always like a little bit of drama with the barbecue because people have to move their cars. Do you know anything about parking drama in the city? I do. I do. That is because for me, I'm like, if I'm not attending, I don't want to move my car. Yeah, chances are I wouldn't be attending. So I'm not I'm actually not going to move my car.

Not only that, I'm going to sit in my car and watch you. This is it. Yes, this is exactly the problem. And like parking is always a drama on this alley because like you can't really park on it. But people do all the time because they like some of them have garages that back up to it and like you park your car on the sidewalk really quick to run your groceries in. But then your neighbor can't get out and is like honking, right?

It's a whole ordeal. Nightmare. Someone is always blocking someone else. So everyone on the street has each other's numbers from like years of being like, please move your car so that I can go to work. Oh, every day, the whole week before 4th of July, people are like threatening to tow each other's cars. No, they're like, if this car is on the block for more than an hour, like it's got to go.

Who has a whole thing to monitor? You know, who has the time? Our girl, Katia. Our girl, Katia is eating this up. She's reading the next door. She is gossiping. She's keeping careful track of who's mad at who in a little notebook. Oh, she's on it. I love you. Love her. Yes. Every 4th of July, Katia's neighbor,

like one of the women on the street, Gertrude, makes the burgers. OK. Gertrude, excellent cook. She's lived in the neighborhood for like 30 years and this is like her event, right? She's like 4th of July is my special day. The burgers are like she grinds up a bunch of different meats. She has a special spice blend. It's like a whole thing. She makes the patties by hand. And so she's like in her kitchen, making her little patties by hand.

When she notices that another man on the street, Eugene, hasn't moved his fucking car. Oh, no, no, no, Eugene. And it's like 11 a.m. Oh, Jesus. Our girl, Katia finds out that Gertrude is mad because her next door neighbor, Elise, texts her. Oh, my God. OK. Elise and Katia moved on to this little street on the same month,

like four years ago, and they were like fast friends. They're the same age. They both love like olives on their pizza and no one else in their family likes it. So they were like bound together by olives. I think did they share pizza early on in their relationship? I was like, yeah, I guess so. It's beautiful, isn't it? That's sweet. Look at that. Two best friends having all of pizza.

So of course, if Elise knows any gossip, Katia knows gossip because they are like bound together. So because Gertrude texted Elise, Katia knows the Gertrude texted Elise and was like, can you tell Eugene to move his car? I'm very busy. Oh, Lord. OK. Do you understand what has happened here or are you confused by the names? Gertrude told Elise to tell Eugene to move his car. Exactly. So this means that Katia knows

that Eugene needs to move the car. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Do you think that Elise should do this like chore for Gertrude and tell Eugene to move his car? Here's the thing. I think it depends. And I answer this, I think it depends on how old Gertrude is. OK, she is like an older woman who has lived on this block for a long time.

OK, so I think that Elise has to, if I were her, I would have like a tally of how many times you're helping her in this way, because it can get fall deeply into the territory if she's always doing these things for Gertrude. Yes, we're also you don't want to be rude and you also don't want Gertrude to turn against you. So I'm like, I believe in this instance, especially since it's such a big event for the street,

that it's OK for her to reach out to Eugene. Katia is like, I think you should just text him. Like, you don't want to make an enemy of Gertrude generally. So like, and this is a small ask. And Elise is like, fine. So she texts Eugene and is like Gertrude says, you need to move your car. Oh, God. Eugene does not text back.

Of course, he doesn't. He's mad. I know that he's mad. But Katia is like sitting at her little window, right? Looking out at the tiny street and she sees Eugene like stomp out of his house, get in his car and like he has this big Pontiac Oldsmobile. So everyone knows which one is his and she like watches him move it. And she's like, OK, well, it worked. There you go. In the afternoon, when all the neighbors go outside for the block party,

Katia and Elise are like standing right next to each other, doing their little whispering, right? Love it. Oh, I want to be their friend. Eugene comes up to them and is cranky, right? Like, he's so cranky. He's like, I can't believe I had to move my car for this. Fourth of July is a stupid holiday. Like, I'm not patriotic. I'm Eugene.

He's like, all these like people move into the neighborhood and now they want us to move my they want me to move my car. The neighborhood is changing. Everyone's so nosy. Everyone's a know it all like this sucks. I do have a query, which I wonder if you got information about where are they moving the cars? Because now it's like if I'm Eugene, it's street parking still.

So they're moving their cars like Eugene does not have a garage. He's moving his car onto the street somewhere else. Right. So then that means he has to go move the car, then walk back home. And then after this event or whatever, go walk back to your car, move where it was like this. It's a whole production. And at that point, I'm wondering why don't you just move the party key whatever to the front, the other side of the alley

to the front facing side of the other houses, you know? Yeah, I'm glad that you're so clocked in with Eugene already. You're like simply move the barbecue. Let me leave my car. It's fine. Katya and Elise are like, we accept your rant, right? Like they're nodding and smiling. But in their heads, they're like the person who asked you to move your car is Gertrude. Gertrude has lived in this neighborhood for 30 years, just like you. Like this is not a new people in the neighborhood problem.

This is your longest neighbor. Yeah, fair. OK. Whatever, though. They're not going to fight you, Jean. The sun has not set yet. And like Katya, our girl is a true crime girly. So when fireworks start going off, she knows there are fireworks. She's not scared. She's like, those are fireworks. OK.

She can see them. She's like, everyone's having a great time. She and Elise have been out there for a while and they're like having their little beers and they're like, it's time for us to eat, right? The kids have eaten. The old birds have eaten. It's our turn. So they get in line.

They add their little buns to their paper plates, their potato salad, their chips, their pasta salad. They have like five cold salads, right? All the carbs. Yeah. Exactly. They get to the grill and Katya watches Gertrude like take a perfectly charred burger off the grill and put it on her plate. And she's like, yes. And Elise is like, oh, can I get can I get a veggie burger? Like I'm a I'm a vegetarian.

Can I get a veggie burger? And Gertrude is like, oh, yeah, one second. And she opens a box of what's called unthinkable burgers. Gertrude opens a box of like unthinkable burgers. And she's like and they're looking at it and there are no burgers inside. Oh, no. Dun, dun, dun. Eugene, what did you do?

Gertrude is like, huh? And Katya is like, oh, are they all gone? Like did other people already eat them? And Gertrude is like, I haven't made any of them. Oh, Gertrude is like, everyone loves my good burgers. Like why would I be making these? It's unthinkable that she'd make an unthinkable. Yeah. Elise is like sad because she's like, I'm a vegetarian.

I wanted my special burger. What do you do here? Yeah. Yeah. I actually, for me personally, my eyes, as I mentioned, would dart immediately to Eugene. I believe that he now, again, I empathize with him heavily. I feel like we're one and, you know, he quite possibly could be me. But if I'm if I'm putting myself in Eugene's shoes,

I too would probably steal her veggie burger. You would because she asked you to move your car. Or because I think she, if I'm that upset and I want to upset her in the way that I've been upset and inconvenience, I would have clocked her dietary needs and taken what? Only then she could be. I love that you're like, I too am petty. And therefore I would happily steal these unthinkable burgers

from this vegetarian woman. They get away from the grill a little bit and Katia turns to Elise and is like, does anybody have any like problems with you? And Elise is like, Katia, please, because Elise knows that Katia is about to like, click into her favorite mode, which is like investigation mode. She's like, Katia, it's fine. I'm going to eat sides. I love sides.

There are so many sides. Katia is like in her head. She's like, who here wants to sabotage Elise? Eugene, she's looking around. She's like, everybody loves Elise. There's not a single person on this earth who everyone loves. Nobody. Do you know what Occam's razor is?

No. OK, Occam's razor is a like theorem that no more assumptions should be made than are absolutely necessary. So it's the idea that like the simplest answer is usually the right one. Right. OK. OK. Katia is like, I must remember Occam's razor. I must not go into my mind palace of sabotage. She's like the most likely thing here is that somebody moved the burgers out of a box and into a cooler. But why? Because they need to be cold.

I don't know. So she starts looking around, right? She's like looking in all the coolers. She's looking at everyone's personal coolers, but there are no no burgers. She's looking under the table, no burgers. She's looking on like the platters of stuff, no burgers. Katia is like, Occam's razor is dead to me. We're going investigatory mode. Yeah. Her gaze narrows on two people.

Eugene, who is having a beer and chatting and Gertrude, who is still making burgers. Why do you think she's suspicious of these two people? Oh, I think I this is actually you're cracking something open for me. I believe that Eugene and Gertrude are in cahoots. And that Gertrude is using at least to do her dirty work because she doesn't want to be put on Eugene's hit list. And she has to behave in a way.

So, OK, let me back up. I'm just after Gertrude had at least text Eugene to move his car. Eugene reached out to Gertrude and was like, this heffa made me move my car. Yeah, yeah, well, that's crazy. Oh, then he's like, well, what can we do? And she's like, I think that she eats these veggie burgers. Let's just they have awesome. Yeah, they're gone.

So I think she's working as she's preserving herself and her relationship with Eugene by throwing a lease under the bus. Hmm, I love this theory. Katya's theory is not as advanced. Katya's theory is Eugene could be mad at Elise because she made him move his car. And Gertrude could be mad at Elise because she's secretly insulted that Elise doesn't want her fancy burgers.

Fair, but she couldn't have anticipated that before. That's true. Why would she even bring the if that were the case, she wouldn't even have the vegetarian option. So true. Katya says to herself, she's like, I cannot go around just accusing people of crimes. I need evidence. I need data. Yeah.

So she begins like walking around. She's looking at people's plates, right? She's like asking people if they've seen any unthinkable burgers, right? Like, did any of you have a veggie burger? Right? She's trying to like get the lay of the land. Love it. She's asking people if they like know anything. She's like, oh, have you seen them?

She checks the box. The burgers came in for like a receipt or something. Nothing in there. She tries to like stealthily look through the garbage, but it's all like paper plates and condiments, gross. She decides all of this is useless. She has to get in your troops apartment. No, she's like, this is useless.

I'm just going to ask them. It's not a crime to throw one thing up all burgers away. So I will ask. Totally. Katia goes to Eugene. She's like, are you mad at Elise? Eugene is like, no, I love Elise. I was just mad about having to move my car, but that's not her fault. You can't pin him down like his opinions are changing at any given turn.

Again, something that I relate to heavily. Must see. Yeah. But I'm really eager to really get into the mind of him. And I'd love to talk to his therapist if he has one. Same. Gertrude is like surrounded by people. So Katia can't like just walk up to her and be like, did you throw these away? Do you hate Elise?

Right. Because she's like still making the burgers, still talking to all of these people. So Katia is like trying to find a moment to like slip in. Do you have any good ideas here? As I'm coming to understand, I feel like Katia and no disrespect to her. I think that she doesn't really have the guts to do what needs to be done. I would have caused her worries. I would have fainted, pretended to be so then or had Elise pretend to faint.

So then the tension is shifted now to her and then you can get Gertrude alone. Or I'd go up and be like, my burger fell. Oh my God, I need another burger. Because since Gertrude is so protective over those burgers. Yeah. And then she would immediately be like, let me make you another one right now. So I think those are some of her options. Other than that, I would say if, as you mentioned, the fireworks were going off,

I would duck and have people think they were gunshots. And now you have a distraction. Yeah, I have a distraction. Yeah, I can go over there. Yeah. Katia is not as creative as you. So Katia is like, she's like, I'll just wait. So she just waits until like the end of the night because she's like Gertrude brought all this stuff out of her house.

She's going to need help taking it back in. I don't think Katia cares about Elise. Oh, why? She's not working as hard as she could. This could have been solved like easy. Katia waits. She like says goodnight to Elise. Elise goes home with her little fam and she like sees Gertrude

start like taking stuff back into her house and she's like, oh, Gertrude, do you like need a hand? And Gertrude's like, oh, yeah, I would love a hand. OK. So Katia like carries a bunch of stuff into Gertrude's house, you know, is like putting leftovers into the fridge. And she's thinking she's like, all I have to do is open a door, right? I just need to give her an opportunity to confess and she will confess.

And so she's like, you know, I just like, I really wonder what happened to all those unthinkable burgers. Oh, I don't know if Gertrude's going to take the bait. Gertrude is like, I'll tell you what happened to him. I threw him away. What? She's like, they aren't meat. I don't know what they are.

I put them on the grill and they like melted around the edges. They did not look good. OK, OK, OK, which I get those those things. It's a tough time when you first cook one and unthinkable. It is. It's a tough pill to swallow. Just see how they interface with the pan. Yeah, she's like, plus, why would you even want one of these burgers when I'm making these like deluxe, excellent burgers?

She's like, I don't think that like you can just come in and demand whatever you want, like make your own burger if you want something different. OK, Gertrude, move everyone's car. But if we're if we're not up to making demands, I'm I'm sorry. Katya is like, I don't think that's fair because you like don't let anyone else use the grill, right? Like it's not like you're like, oh, make whatever you want on the grill. You're doing the grill all day.

So nobody could have brought their own burger and did it. You would have been offended. And Gertrude's like, not everything is about everyone. Oh, Gertrude. Oh, God, Katya, leave. And Katya is like, OK, good night. And she goes back outside onto the street and she feels like the exuberance of a thousand sons, she's like, I did it. I solved the mystery.

I figured it out. I'm feeling like I've seen Katya now. She looks like Nicole Kidman leaving the divorce. Yes. She's living. Yes. But now she has a question to deal with, which is, do you tell Elise? Why wouldn't she?

That's her friend. Well, one reason she might not is that Elise and Gertrude are always like snipping back and forth at each other. And Katya is like, I don't know that I like really want to create a war. Huh. But also, Elise is your friend. Yeah. And. I think if you. Katya, at the end of the day, inserted herself pretty heavily into this.

She sure did. Decided that she was going to take it upon herself to figure out what the truth was. I don't think that as someone who dare say myself a professional gossip, you have to finish what you started. If you said you're going to find this out for someone and you found it out and this comes back around and now Elise, if it comes out that Katya found out what exactly happened and Elise finds out later somehow, whatever.

I don't trust Katya anymore because I feel like Katya is against me. OK, but Elise specifically was like, do not do this. Do not go into investigation mode. Leave it. I listen. Elise knows who she's playing with. She knows how to go on and do it. And also, if Katya has this information, how is it going to? This now information is going to inform how Katya interfaces

with Gertrude moving forward and Elise is going to see that shift. And at least to understand that shift. So she may as well be honest. And have it all out in the open and say, I know you didn't want me to do it, but it wasn't right in my soul. So I had to continue on and tell her what happened. I agree. I completely agree with you. Katya is like, I don't want to tell her.

She's like, I think Elise will be mad at me for like doing the investigation, even though she told me not to and also like secrets are a little powerful. And I want to keep this one. A little OK. Wait a second. Wait a second. A little powerful. She's not wanting power over Elise. No, over Gertrude. But even if she tells Elise, they still have the power.

I agree. Katya, baby, we need to talk. What is happening? You can't get into this game and get all weak like that at the end. Katya gets back to her house and she like draws the curtains and dims the lights and she's like, I need to update my binder. Yeah. Katya is a true crime girly, right? She listens to like every true crime podcast that exists.

She watches Dateline. She loves them. There are these binders that you can buy. They're called In Case I Go Missing Binders. Yes, yes, yes. They're very popular amongst mainly white women who are true crime heads. And Katya bought hers personalized off Etsy. Of course.

These binders are ostensibly made to be like handed over to law enforcement in the event that you go missing. I actually know I need one. It's like worth noting that law enforcement like notoriously bad at their jobs, notoriously bad at solving crimes. Like they would probably not take one of these binders seriously. Also worth noting that usually people are killed by people they're in relationships with who ostensibly could destroy the binder.

But what at first? Sure. But it's a fine activity. It's a hobby. It's a hobby. Yeah. In these binders, you can put all sorts of stuff. Dental x-rays, headshots, photos of your tattoos, handwriting samples, a lock of your hair, all your fingerprints.

OK, I'll do that. Yeah, you like fingerprints. Yeah, I love fingerprints. Passwords to all your important accounts, right? Like you can put all of this in the binder. You could. There's like a space to put your like daily routines and routes. But Katya knows better.

She always like varies her routines and routes. Of course, yeah. I found the copy of one of these binders to read to you and it says. Over 30 hand illustrated labels suggest what to save to prepare for an emergency from power of attorney to allergies from tattoos to hair samples and a list of friends and exes. Binders can be delivered in plain personalized within case of emergency or with the text of your choice.

What else would it say? Who knows? Yeah, Jesus. One page of the binder is for like a citually potential suspects. Like it's like, who's mad at you? I love it. And but that's also ever evolving. Yes.

So that's why Katya has to get the binder out is because she needs to go add Gertrude's name to the page of people who might be mad at her. I also think that this would be better. These binders and I know people like to have their things as I do too. It would be more useful to have this digitally because, you know, I'm thinking of all the passwords that change the friends that will move to the ex friends column eventually, as I've had experience. Yeah.

And like things are just always I'm not trying to sit here whiting out and scratching out. Then you look crazier. So it's digital and it's just and it's backed up on the cloud. No one can burn it. There you go. Katya's not doing that. She has a little binder.

She loves it. The fourth of July incident that we have covered is the first incident. It is not the main incident. Oh, God. The real incident happens a few months later. No. Are you ready? I am.

Oh, God. You look scared. I am. OK. So one day, Elise calls Katya. Katya is sitting in her little home office. And Elise is like, can you look out your window? There's a car parked in the middle of the street.

I'm trying to go to work. Can you see who it is? And Katya looks at her window and she's like, I don't know. It's like some guy. And Elise is like, well, where is he? Like, is he in the car? Should I honk at him? She's like, I don't want to honk.

It's early in the morning. Right. And Katya is like, no, he looks like he's at Eugene's house ringing the doorbell. And Elise is like, OK, I'm in the car behind him and I'm like tied on time. So if he goes in, let me know and I'm going to start honking. How can she not see him if she's outside in the car behind him? Listen, I can't. I don't know.

I don't know the answer to this question. Maybe he's behind her. Yeah, it's unclear. I think you're so suspicious of everyone. I know. Katya is like, this is so funny. I can like see my friend in the car and I'm like watching this guy. Like he's my little sim.

She's like, I love it. But this man does not go into Eugene's house. So there's like no problem, right? Door doesn't open. He like heads back to the car and Katya can see from her window. She sees Elise like roll down the window. She sees Elise get out of the car. Katya is like, this is the most riveted I've been in months.

Inside her heart. She's like, I should really invest in binoculars. It is hard for me to see this far. She's watching Elise and this man talk to each other. He's handing her something. What is that? It's a it's a plastic bag. What?

Elise looks like very flustered. The man like gets into his car and leaves. Elise is not going back to her car. Elise is coming to Katya's patio gate. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Katya rushes downstairs. She runs down all her stairs. She bursts through her back door.

She's like, hey. And Elise is like, hey. And Katya is like, what? What's happening? What what was that? And Elise like puts the little plastic bag onto Katya's little patio table. And Elise is like, I don't know.

That guy said he couldn't get in touch with Eugene and needed to give him this. And Katya is like, what is it? And Elise is like, Katya, I don't know what it is. I'm trying to go to work. Like I have to go to work. I can't deal with this. Elise is a lawyer.

She's busy. She's like, I must leave. She's like, Katya, can you deal with this for me? Like my car is literally running. Elise asks so much of Katya. Do you deal with it? Of course, because I'm nosy. But also, I'm like, now I'm suspicious.

So I don't want. This is the case when you get the gloves. I don't want my prints on any of this. And I want to know what it is. But I also want to be careful. And I also creeped out as to why a stranger is dropping something off in a plastic bag to a man's house. So, yeah.

Katya's like, yeah, I'd be super happy to watch this plastic bag for you. No problem. Have a good day at work. And Elise is like, bye. Do you look in the bag? Yes. It's not male, so it's not a federal offense.

Katya is like, exactly like you. Katya is like, I am not getting my prints all over this bag. I'm going to get my little plastic gloves. Not only that, I'm going to carry this bag into the corner of my patio that I know that the camera on my house does not see. Amazing. She opens it.

And immediately upon opening it, she's like, what if people believe that I planted things in this bag? So she takes out her phone and she starts recording herself. OK, so I found this bag, and I just want to walk you through this in case people need it. It seems safest to tape it just so I have it to prove I didn't plant anything and also just so that we see everything together.

OK, so we have matches and some scratch off lottery thingies, but these are both losers, so trash. There's a pack of Marlboro Reds with three cigarettes left, a towing company card, an ID card for the casino, and what is this? Oh, I know what this is because I have one. This is a lock picking set. OK, there are just like a couple more things.

Oh, no, this is this is a key. These are the keys to the Oldsmobile. You can tell because it doesn't even have the clicky beeper on it and a wallet. It's Eugene's wallet. It has his ID and all his credit cards in it. Oh, my God, I feel sick. OK, I have a couple of things.

I just recently found out that when you get your car towed, they take all your belongings and put them in a bag. What? That's really rude. It's like, yeah, because a friend of mine got his car towed and they were like, you need to pay $50 in cash. And he was like, well, pass me my wallet in my car. And they were like, well, all the stuff in your car

is actually in a plastic bag and a locker. And he was like, OK, well, yeah. And I didn't know that. So the minute she was like, there's things that seem like, oh, this looks a little like junky that might have been what was in his car. But I don't find it that far out of belief that he would leave his wallet just loose in his car

if you're like older and maybe a sciatica and can't sit on his wallet. But the fact that he wasn't home could mean that he, a key part is missing was, do we know if the car, his car was at his house? The car is not at his house. So then where he doesn't have his keys and it must not be at the tow company still

because they're bringing back his belongings. If you tell me Eugene is dead, I'm going to lose it. You have this bag with all of Eugene's important stuff, all of it. What do you do? I'm going to be real. It depends on what my day is looking like. If I have a couple of meetings or something,

I'm going to put the bag on his porch, keep an eye out. But I will be attending to my work and I will be hoping and praying for the best in his well-being. If I have a free day, I might actually go to the police. But I probably wouldn't. I'd call the tow. Actually, no matter what, I'm calling the towing company.

I'm pretending to be Eugene's daughter, granddaughter, whatever. Asking about the car, saying I'm coming to get it, having trouble getting in contact with him. Then before I call the police, I'd call local hospitals to see if there's anyone who came in matching his description. I love this plan.

Katia's first move is I will call Eugene. Oh, smart. Yeah, obviously. She calls. He doesn't answer. She calls again. No answer. She leaves a voicemail that's like, hey, it's Katia.

Guy just dropped off a bag with all of your stuff. So just give me a ring back and I'm happy to bring it over whenever you're free. This is annoying. She calls the hospitals because that's her first move. She's like, this man is older. I'll just call in case. So she calls all the hospitals and they're like, no,

we don't have a man with that description. He's not here. She's like, I need more information. So she texts Elise. And she's like, what exactly did the man who handed you this bag say to you? And Elise is like, I am busy. I am at work, babe.

And Katia's like, just send a voicemail. Tell me the basics. And Elise is like, he told me, I can't get in touch with Eugene and I need to give him this stuff. And then he told me, I work with him. He knows me as Howard. He knows me as Howard? So that must not be his real name.

OK, but where does Eugene work? Great question. Katia's like, what? She's having the same reaction as you. She's like, I shall simply back up this voicemail mode to my Google Drive. I will be saving the voicemail. She's creating a folder that's like, Eugene.

She's dropping the voicemail mode in there. She's like, he didn't say my name is Howard. Every true crime bell in her head is ringing. She's like, what else did he say? And Elise is like, babe, I got to go. I'll call you later. And she's like, OK. But she keeps turning this phrase over.

He knows me as Howard. It's so strange. It's so suspicious. That is the biggest red flag. What now? This is now when, again, I'm calling the towing company. But also, we need to know where Eugene works. As you described him, I wasn't picturing Eugene

as someone who's going to work day in and day out. And this means that maybe Eugene works at a towing company. And I have no idea. No idea. But again, I'm hesitant to go to the police because you don't want to be alarmist. You also don't want to involve them. But I don't know what else your other options are.

Two hours since the bag was dropped off. Did Eugene show up? Katya's going reddit mode. She's like Howard, name of city. Howard, workplace. She's Howard Eugene. She's typing in every combination of things she can think of.

But she doesn't know Eugene's last name, right? It's like it's going nowhere. They know all this about these people. They don't know their last names. No, it's the same as if you know someone from the dog park and you have them in your phone as whatever, Cocker Spaniel. It's like Eugene neighborhood.

If they're looking at these people's cars all the time, she has to have committed at least the first three of his license plate to memory or have a photo of the license plate. Yes. So she calls the towing company. And she's like, it's a specific car we're talking about here, Pontiac Oldsmobile.

Maybe she has the license plate. I don't really know. And they're like, no, we do not have that car. There's no car like that here. She's like, I will call the other towing companies. She calls the other towing companies no Pontiac Oldsmobile. She's like, I'm simply going to look around because Eugene doesn't always park in front of his house.

Sometimes he parks in street parking. So she's walking around the neighborhood looking for the Pontiac Oldsmobile, cannot find it. OK. But Eugene hasn't come home that we know of. No. And she hasn't gone to see if he would come to his door again. Or if he's like, OK.

Wow. She is calling him every hour and texting. OK. She texts a few neighbors. She's like, have any of you seen Eugene? I have some stuff I need to give him. And they're all like, no, I haven't seen him in a couple days. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, Eugene, what are you doing? Does he have? And we don't know if he has kids or if he's like business. If he's just out of town, drove somewhere. But again, his wallet is in the bag. With all his cards, right? Like, it's clear that it's like the full wallet. And I don't see Eugene doing Apple Pay.

No. This man does not know about that. No. No. It has been four hours since the bag was dropped off now. Katya's next move is the ring camera. Why wasn't? Actually, why wasn't that her first move?

But I'm sorry. Great question. I will now go on Kelsey's little rant, which is that ring cameras are unethical. They're an invasion of privacy in public space. You should not be recording your neighbors. But Katya, of course, is. She is paranoid.

She pulls the video. Now she has video of this random man giving the bag to Elise, right? She at least has that. OK. But she's like scrolling back in the video, right? Like nothing weird, but also like no coming or going of Eugene for like the 48 hours that the ring camera records.

And as the neighbor said, many of them hadn't seen him in a few days. OK. She also finds the video of herself running into the corner of the patio with the bag, and so she deletes that. Katya, see? There you go.

I mean, talk about suspicious. And now she's concealing evidence. I can't. Oh, God. Now she has this video, though. So she like goes out into the street, right? And is like, I'm just going to show all my neighbors this video and see if any of them know who this guy is, right?

Like it's not a big cities are only so big. It's possible somebody knows him. She calls Eugene again. No luck. She calls Elise. She's like, I'm starting to get like worried. Yeah. And Elise is like, dude, there are so many explanations

for why this could be happening. Please chill out. And Katya is like, this dude was here. I really think something bad happened to you, Jean. I'm scared. And Elise was like, Elise was like, that guy seemed like a weird dude, but he didn't seem like mean.

He seemed fine. He was just like a normal guy. And Katya is like, but I have all of his important stuff, all of it. And Elise is like, what? Because she doesn't know what's in the bag. And so Katya walks her through what's in the bag and Elise is like, OK, I still think

you're being overdramatic, but that is a little concerning. OK, well, you can't have it both ways, Elise. What do you do now? I think Elise, who's a lawyer, needs to, I mean, I don't know what type of law she practices, but I think that she needs to contact someone in her office who can get maybe like a bolo out on Eugene. It has now been nine hours since the bag was dropped off.

Katya is convinced that Eugene is dead. She knows that the first 24 hours are the most important hours, and she is panicking. Well, we're well beyond that. He's been gone for at least two days. Yes. The light, the sun is starting to go down, and there are like no lights on in Eugene's house at all.

She calls again, nothing. She calls the police, and she's like, my neighbor is missing. And they're like, is your neighbor under the age of 12? And she's like, no. And they're like, is your neighbor over the age of 80? And she's like, probably not. And they're like, you cannot file a missing person's report for a normal adult that you have no relationship to.

And also, you have to wait 48 hours. Oh, god. I know this killed Katya. Yeah, this is also a lie that police tell you do not have to wait 48 hours to file a missing person's report, whatever. She's like, well, he has been missing for 48 hours. Like, I have looked at my ring camera.

He hasn't been home. And they're like, but you don't know this man. And she's like, that's fair. That's a fair point. But he's like an older gentleman. Could you please send someone for a wellness check at least, right? Like, come check.

And they're like, yeah, we can send somebody. But like, everybody's busy. They'll be there soon. And Katya's like, when is soon? And the cops are like, I don't know, like an hour. These people. And Katya's like, I'd also like to give you a description of this man.

He gave my friend a bag. And the police are like, wait, wait, wait. He didn't even give you the bag? And Katya's like, yeah, they gave it to Elise. And the police are like, OK, we're not taking a description from you of what your friend saw. Like, have her call us and we'll take it from her. Katya obviously is recording all of these phone

calls. She's putting them all into her documentation recording all the videos. She calls Elise and she's like, you need to call the cops. They won't talk to me. Elise is living at this point, I know. Elise is like, no. Like, stop playing on my phone and let me work. I am nervous, but I also feel like Eugene was probably

just out there living his life at this point because the other alternative is that he is dead and I'm not ready to sit with that. What? There's something I didn't tell you about Eugene. And I have to tell you this because it's really important. Like, this is going to change everything. What?

A few years ago, there was a drama on the street where people kept parking too close to the curb on the adjacent street, right? So, like, the place where you would turn into this street, people were parking too close. And so, like, the garbage truck could not get down the street. The street is so small that, like, this city has a tiny garbage truck for the small streets, right?

So, it's like a special garbage truck and it still couldn't make the turn because this guy kept parking his car there. Couldn't get down, big problem, everyone's whining because they're like, our trash didn't come last week, this guy still parked there, like, when's the trash gonna come, blah, blah, blah. Katya is whining the loudest about this.

And finally, someone is like, just ask Eugene. And she's like, why would I ask Eugene? What's he gonna do? And Gertrude is like, oh, because Eugene works for the Waste Management Department. Oh. He can get somebody out there, make sure their car is moved and the garbage comes.

Okay, so, but do we know in what capacity he works for them, is he driving the trucks? We do not know. He could have left that bag at work. This is part of Katya's concern. She's seen the Sopranos. She's like, what if Eugene is in the mob? What if he's dead?

What? What? She makes so many leaps and listen, I get it, I do too. However, be real Katya. Katya's like, she asks Elise and Gertrude, she's like, can you wait with me on the street? I'm like really stressed and the police are like theoretically coming and they're like fine.

Also, I'm sorry, at this point, why didn't she, if she knew that's where he worked, why didn't she call the Waste Management Company? Great question. That's, again, should have been on her first when she was in her toe in company phase, she should have called them. Yes, she's bringing this up to Elise and Gertrude

on the street, they're waiting for the cops. And Elise is like, this is not the Sopranos. People have real jobs, people work for the Waste Management Company, like that's a job. Yeah. Katya's like, but he does have like really nice stuff, like he lives in this nice house,

he has these nice scarfs, he has nice shoes, and Elise is like, but he drives that like bad car. And Gertrude's like, oh, that's not a bad car, that's a very expensive car, it's just old. Also, can I just say that there's like, a lot of people from what I've seen, I watch a lot of YouTubes and blogs, people who work in Waste Management

are actually making like six figures a year, so he can have nice things. Elise is on the same brainwave as you, she's like, it's a city job, let's simply look up the salaries because all government job salary brackets are public. So Elise pulls it up and there's like a huge scale in the amount of money this man could make, right?

It's like minimum 60K, so that's not nothing, and maximum like 350K. So she's like, that tells us nothing, right? Like he could have nice stuff because he makes a lot of money at work. And Elise is like, you are always doing this, you're always making a huge deal out of stuff, like everything's probably fine,

and Katya's like, but I know I'm right, like I can feel it in my blood that I'm right. She'd better be right, because if not, then no one will believe her ever again. And Elise is like, how do you know that you're right? Like you were also convinced that there was a conspiracy to throw out the Unthinkable Burgers. And Gertrude's standing there too.

I know Katya is about to put, oh Lord, Katya's fired up, she's telling the truth right now. Katya looks at Gertrude and she's like, you wanna tell her or should I? Gertrude is going to slap Katya, and at this point I would cheer her on. Gertrude's like, I'll tell her,

I threw out the Unthinkable Burgers, they did a weird melt thing, I don't feel bad about it, I was right. What does Elise do? Elise, like blanches. And she looks at Katya and she's like, okay, fine, you were right one time. Oh God.

They will never be friends again. And Katya's like, well, can you just like, stand out here with me? Like, I don't wanna talk to the cops by myself, you're a lawyer, and Elise is like, I'm not that kind of lawyer, but sure. Everybody stands around for a while, but like, they're out there for a while,

the police are not there. Eventually everyone's like, please can we go back inside to our house? It's a little chilly out. Katya's like, fine, 11 hours since the bag. Katya's sitting by the window, she's looking at her computer screen, she is pulling up the deed history of Eugene's house.

She finds that he made a very large cash down payment 30 years ago, but this also gives her his last name. And so she goes to newspapers.com and she types it in. She pays $60 for like the full newspapers.com archive. And she finds a story about him being arrested for disturbing the peace when he was 25 years old and she's like, criminal. Katya, baby, get some rest, you're going easy,

you're spiraling. We are now 12 hours past the bag drop off. Okay, and still no word from Eugene, and she's still calling him. She's calling, she's calling every hour on the hour. The police show up, it's dark, they park in the middle of the street in front of Eugene's house.

And because he has like a motion sensor light, it goes on. Katya's smart, she's like, no cops inside my house. Like I'm going to call Elise because I'm going to make sure there's a lawyer there. Like I'm not a dummy. So they both go outside to meet the cops and she's got her laptop, she's got her notes, she's got like all this stuff.

And she's like, I'm here, I have the plastic bag with Eugene's stuff. The cops are like rolling their eyes, right? They do not care about this at all. They're all in the alley. The cops are like, just text him one last time, like call him again, text him one last time, tell him that the police are here.

So Katya calls, he doesn't answer. She texts and it's like, hey, we're outside your house. I've been calling you all day because someone dropped off a bag with your wallet and keys in it this morning, but you haven't been answering any of my calls and we're really worried, the police are here and we're going to file a missing persons report

if we don't hear from you soon. She hits send. They're standing so still that the motion sensor light like goes off, right? They're standing in darkness. One minute, no response. Two minutes, nothing. At the five minute mark,

the hinges on Eugene's door squeak, the door to Eugene's house opens, a man is in there. Is it Eugene? Katya screams, Elise screams. The motion sensor light comes on and it is Eugene. What? What? What?

What is this explanation? Katya feels like immediate relief because she's like, oh my God, I thought my neighbor was dead. Yeah. And then she feels immediate confusion and frustration. Eugene looks like, he does not look good, right? He looks tired.

He is not put together like he usually is. He looks like he's been through something and he's like, I'm fine, ladies. Thank you for your concern. Thank you for keeping my wallet and keys. Good night. Sir, I'm going to need a little bit more. Give me some more.

They're like, wait. Katya's like, why didn't you answer your phone? Like we were really worried about you. I called you 12 times. Like people don't call other people 12 times. And Eugene is like, it was a really hard day. I was busy. He's like fumbling a little through these sentences.

And he's like, the thing is like my house was broken into and the jacket was stolen. I have a jacket that like hangs on a little hook. It was stolen and that had my wallet and keys and all this shit in it. And he's like, luckily I had a backup key. So I moved the car, so the car wouldn't be stolen. But like that's what happened here.

Okay, so then whoever stole the jacket just came to drop off your belongings and your stuff and didn't steal the credit cards or the money? The police are like, so somebody broke into your house and Eugene's like, yes. And they're like, and that person stole your jacket with your wallet in it. And Eugene is like, yes.

And the police are like, and you didn't call it in. And Eugene is like, that's correct. The police are like, even though you were burgled and Eugene is like, yes. The police are like, did you file a police report? Eugene is like, no. The police are like, would you like to file a police report? And Eugene is like, no.

Eugene's sweetie. The police at this point are like, bye. We have other things to do. Like this is going nowhere, goodbye. Do you believe Eugene? Absolutely not. Which parts of this do you think are true? How do you feel?

I think that he is, I think that he is lying through his teeth because I understand not coming to the door once or for one call. If someone knocks, I do it all the time. Yeah, that's normal. If it's something I'm not expecting, I'm not interfacing. But if someone's calling me 12 times a day,

I notice people standing outside looking at my home. I had, you know, a stranger come to my door who could have been a thief who I didn't know was gonna harm me. I'm gonna call the police. Like there's, he's disheveled and not in his typical state of mind. Something is going on. Eugene's like, goodnight girls.

And Katya's like, excuse me, no, no, no. Who's Howard? The guy who dropped this off said that you knew him as Howard. And Eugene's like, oh yeah, we worked together. Howard owed me a favor. He got my stuff back. So he knew who burgled his home?

Katya's like, but like still, like why did he say that you would know him as Howard? Right, like why? And Eugene is like, well, everybody else calls him legs. Good night, girls. What else? Katya is like, I feel insane. She's like, she's like-

Not her being mass lit by Eugene. Oh my God. That's been all day worried this man is dead. Trying to find him. Now he's here. He's telling some tale about a man named Legs. She's like, I don't know what to do. And she's also like, Elise's like, I'm really sorry.

Like you were right. This was nothing. I should have just left it on his doorstep. And Elise is like, it really pains me to say this, but you were clearly fucking right. Like there is something up here. There is something up in general. She's like, I do not trust this man.

I do not trust that story. Yeah, it's a full lie. You can read every book, every newspaper. You can know all the names of all your neighbors and how lock picking kits work. You can keep a binder of every fact you know about everyone who lives near you and listen to every podcast about crime that exists.

And sometimes you still don't know the answer. The world is so much more mysterious than we want it to be. I need you to tell me they got the real story. Whose side are you on? Katya and Elise. What thoughts do you have at this point? I think that Eugene is doing something creepy in his home. He has bad associates.

And now I'm concerned that he is a part of the mob as Katya first predicted. The bad news is that I don't have the answer to this story for you yet. Oh, God, Kelsey. The good news is that through this entire process, Katya was like, wow, I'm like really not as good at investigations as I thought I was.

Wow. And so now she is like taking several online courses to like learn to be better. This did not deter her. She is like, I am going to find out. I need her to personally hit me up and keep me in the loop, although I'm a little scared of Eugene. And I'm actually really upset that I found kinship with him

at the start of this. And I want to actually rescind that and take that back. And I see no parts of me and Eugene. We hope to know more for you in the future. But in the meantime, Katya has added both Eugene and Howard to the binder just in case. Because they're coming for, I'll tell you that. Safety first.

And put his nickname legs. Yeah, Mariah, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a joy to have you. Thank you. It's been a thrill. This has been so fun. We did it. How do you feel?

Yay. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossipatdefector.com. Or you can leave a voicemail at 2679gossip. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com.

You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normal gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinney-Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Soo-Jong Lawson. Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Defector's project editor is Justin Ellis. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector's business guys. Tom Le is our editor-in-chief.

Jay Tolviera is our production assistant. Dan McQuade runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show Art. Thank you to Dan McQuade for your help on this episode. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively-owned subscriber-based media company.

Normal Gossip is a proud member of RadioTopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Sarah. And remember, you did not hear this from me. RadioTopia from PRX.