Normal Gossip - Of Baths and Bivalves with Avery Trufelman

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

Avery Trufelman returns for a story about the ethics of scallops and boundaries. We are now on YouTube. Be sure to follow us on there at @DefectorMedia where you can watch today’s episode.Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets!You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com.You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/Episode transcript here.Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP.Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira). Our audio engineer is Samantha Gattsek. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Theme music composed by Hrishikesh Hirway.Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

There's another podcast we think you'll want to check out. The Selects podcast is a free show bringing you unearthed audio works that we found buried in web archives, radio streams, and early podcasts. It's hosted by Mitra Koboli, whose work you may have heard on Welcome to Provincetown and the fellow Radiotopia show The Heart. The Selects podcast features award-winning documentaries, oral histories, and works and sound that come through recommendations and inspirations from some of the most talented audio creators working today. Please listen closely. If it ain't got those hands, man, you don't have to be gay to listen.

If it ain't got that stretch, if it ain't got those eyes. This morning for breakfast, I had a toasted everything bagel with eggs and cheese. Recent episodes include a WNYC documentary from 1958 taking to the streets of Greenwich Village to talk to beat poets. Or a transportive ode to desert living from hearing voices, a show that long served as a lab for Icarved. iconic audio journalism. The Selects podcast curates the best works and sound, offering you an opportunity to discover new gems. Check out the Selects podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Oh my God.

Oh, my God. What? Oh, my God. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. Surprise. Welcome back to normal gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton.

In each episode of this podcast, we are going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. last week's episode was supposed to be the finale of season 10, but we thought y'all deserved an extra treat. So we've got another round of gossip for you. Today's guest is not just an old friend of the show. She is also one of our colleagues at Radiotopia. I'm happy to say that Avery Truffleman is here in the studio with me today. Avery Truffleman is the host and producer of the podcast Articles of Interest, which has been named one of the best podcasts of the year by the first podcast.

The New Yorker, the New York Times, The Atlantic, and so many others. You might also remember Avery from the sexy mushrooms episode of Normal Gossip, all the way back in season six. Avery, hello. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited for this episode. We've got a great story today. I'm like, what's in store? But before we get into that, I wanted to ask because you were on season six with our lovely Dowager queen, Kelsey McKinney. And so I wanted to know if your relationship has changed with gossip since then. I mean, last time I was on, I talked about how I have to be more careful about talking shit because that's like the only time.

I very rarely get like recognized because I'm not on a video podcast. But the only times that I have been recognized I've been like talking shit or gossiping. no lessons have been learned. I'm still like getting recognized in horrendous, embarrassing ways that I need to stop. I feel like this has also happened to me. The very first time I got recognized by voice just in Brooklyn, I was talking shit to my best friend from college. We've known each other since 2013. And I don't even, I think it might have been about a coworker, quite frankly, or an old

one and I just hear, are you Rachel Hampton? And I'm like, yeah. Okay, but see, that's on brand for you. Like, that's. It's true. That's good. I remember I was talking to someone, like, waiting in line to get a burrito. I was like, oh, I just feel like he just wants to fuck his mother.

And then someone was like, Avery Trevelyman is like, oh, and hello, yes, hi. Oh, my God. But I also kind of feel like that's on brand. and that it is like a history reference. An interrogation of edible complexes. You brought it back, and I feel like that's what Articles of Interest does so well, is it brings it back. You're good. Okay, good job.

Can you tell how I delude myself in my personal life into being like, actually, expertly, that was a critical investigation, and I'm not embarrassed at all. I have some gossip for you. Are you ready? I'm ready. Our story today is about vegetarians. Okay. I was one.

That is what I've heard. I was told you have some experience with the meatless lifestyle. What is your current persuasion and how is it changed over time? Well, now I ate fish. Because my, well. Fish is great. And as mad as I'm upset with people being. moral purists. I used to be like as vegan as possible, as vegetarian as possible. But I don't know. I remember

when I went to visit a friend in Taiwan, I was like, you're not going to get anything vegan or vegetarian here. Like you just got to be with people. You can't be that annoying person who's like, do you have anything else? So I've always been like people first, but as vegan or as vegetarian as possible. And then my husband is just like, he's so good at making fish. And he was always really upset. He's like, why won't you let me make you fish? And he's pescatarian. And I was like, It's got to give into the lifestyle. It's so good. Oh, my God.

It's so tasty. So I cannot claim vegetarianism anymore, but I lived that life for a very long time. Yeah. I got to say the closest I got to being a vegetarian was in middle school when I was shown a PETA video that scarred me about how chickens are raised in America. It's fucked. It's really fucked. It's really fucked up. But then my parents were getting concerned about my protein intake.

and I wasn't cooking my own meals at that point, and they were like, you got to eat some meat. So that is the closest I ever got to being meatless. But you and our friend of a friend both have stronger self-control than I do in terms of, you know, the meatless agenda. Our friend of a friend today is named Leah. And by the time today's story takes place, Leah has been a vegetarian for over a decade. Her boyfriend, Dev, is also a vegetarian. It is one of the things they had bonded over early in their relationship, specifically

they had bonded over the pivotal role that Haya Miyazaki's movie Princess Monanouke played in their vegetarian journey. Do you have any pivotal like veg texts? Honestly, it was when I met a cow. My friend growing up had a dairy farm and

I met a cow and it had a personality and it was so sweet and it was nuzzling me and I was just like, I can't eat this. I can't eat this. Which is ridiculous because I still wear leather which is deeply woven into the meat industry. Like nothing is pure. But it just gave me the ick.

Yeah. I can't do it. Yeah. I feel that. This Miyazaki point is somewhat important to our story. Okay. Because at the time that our story takes place, Leah and Depp had recently had a lot of time to engage with Miyazaki's works because

Leah and Defe both worked in the service industry. And our story begins in mid-2020. Uh, that sucks. Yeah. When Leah and Def both wind up among the thousands of people who got laid off due to COVID, luckily they both have like a decent amount of safety. not enough to live in perpetuity in their expensive West Coast town, but enough to cover their living expenses minus rent.

This is how Lee and Dev end up doing one of those huge existential COVID pivots. About a month after they both been laid off and they had made their way through the entirety of Miyazaki's filmography for the third time, Lee and Deb decided to do something crazy. Rent is their biggest suspense and they're like, what if we just eliminated that? What? This is like the thing that I hate about the play rent. Or they're like, let's just not pay it. Yeah.

Like, worked out kind of well for them. I know. I thought this would be my life in New York. It's like, nah. Cool. How? Well, they're like, it'll give us some breathing room. So they break their lease.

Okay. They pack everything they own into a storage unit. And they commit to a life that basically kind of looks like a never-ending road trip. Oh, so they're nomadic. Okay. I thought they've developed some. They go from place to place watching people's pets and houses for money. And when they can't get paid house-sitting gigs, they crash on a friend's couch or their camp.

Or honestly, sometimes they just sleep in their van. Does this lifestyle appeal to you at all? No. Yes. Not in the least. Well, this nomadic lifestyle works out pretty well for Leah and Dev. Leah's family actually moved a lot when she was growing up. So it kind of feels natural to keep her stuff to a minimum and explore new places all the time.

Meanwhile, Dev is more like me and had his life meticulously planned out from elementary school all the way up until he got his first job. But now, through the power of therapy and weed and like the impending suits of doom we all had in 2020, Dev is learning how to go with the flow. Okay. He's like the world's ending. Yeah, sure. Might as well. Might as well house it. Exactly.

Yeah. To be clear, these two crazy kids do not have everything figured out. I would say they don't have the majority of things figured out. They do end up sleeping in some random church parking lots at various times in their life. And they're woken up by like police officers tapping on their window because it's illegal to sleep in your car despite the fact that it's your property. I know. Is that true? Yeah.

That's horrible. I think about this a lot and how like you're not allowed to camp. I wish I lived in an America where sometimes I'd be like, I would like to sleep under the stars tonight. I'm going to sleep in the local park. And you're not allowed. You're not allowed to camp. You're not allowed to sleep in your car. Yeah.

Crazy. Yeah. These kids are camping without a permit. They're bathing in rivers on more than one occasion. But all of this feels like an adventure for Leah and Deb. Sure. And they have the most important thing for people in their 20s, which is love. Would love be enough for you to put up with conditions like these in your 20s?

Definitely. Honestly, if I had enough therapy and weed, I would love to live this way. I think I hate on this lifestyle because I envy it. Yeah. I wish I could do that. Well, our story begins. when one of Leah and Deves house seating gigs in Colorado ends. Their next one in Oklahoma doesn't start for another three weeks,

but Leah and Dev aren't worried about this at all because a few weeks ago, Leah had posted on Instagram asking if any of her friends in the Western United States had a couch for them to crash on. And she'd struck gold. One of Leah's best friends from college had responded. This friend is not important to the story, so she will not be named.

What is important to know about this friend is that this friend's parents are rich and cool and artsy empty nesters with a beautiful home in Santa Fe and an equally gorgeous guest house. Always nice to have friends like that. Leah's friend explains that her parents, Tabitha and Silas, have been really lonely during the pandemic. So Leah would actually be doing her friend and Tabith and Silas a huge favor by staying for a few weeks. Leah had actually stayed with Tabith and Silas before the pandemic when her best friend had invited everyone to Santa Fe for a Bachelorette weekend. So Leah knows firsthand not only how cool Tabitha and Silas are.

Like there are some conversations that Leah had with Tabitha that she still remembers fondly to this day. Leah also knows just how gorgeous Tabith and Silas's guest houses. Like the main house is concrete and glass. And Tabith and Silas call it their cabin. I haven't seen a heated rivalry, but I am told it's giving the cottage from heated rivalry. Totally. Well, that's how you know someone's really rich where they're like the cabot, the cottage, the shack. Like, yeah.

Yeah. Come to our little shanty town. It's nothing. No, exactly. Oh, this whole thing. Yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, the guest house has a waterfall shower, a huge TV with a full sound system, and a California king-sized bed.

This seems like a pretty sweet deal to me. This is also normal gossip, which you are gesturing at. Any concerns so far? It's all too nice. It's like a gun and a check-off play. It's like, it's all going to go horribly awry. Yeah. Well, Leah and Dev are driving through the mountains from Colorado to New Mexico when Leah gets a text from Tabitha.

Hello, my dear. It begins. Unfortunately, I've just tested positive for COVID. I'm so sorry we won't be able to spend time together, but you and your beau are still more than welcome to come. I will stay in the guest house and you two can stay in the main house with Silas. Okay. So, you're Leah. How do you respond to this text both emotionally and also, like, text?

Like how do you respond? First of all, just like, oh, no. Especially because it's like COVID in 2020. It's like pre-vaccine. You're going to die. Like, are we okay? Are you okay? How are you feeling?

I don't think it would deter me from going, though. I think I'd probably. Well, also because I'm like. A little bit homeless. Yeah. Yeah. Also, sounds pretty great. Yeah.

Well, an important thing to know about Leah at this point in her life is that she is identifying as a recovering people pleaser. Okay. Like, the majority of the time, Leah has broken her vegetarian diet over the past decade has been because a server accidentally gave her meat and Leah just refused to say anything. I mean, she's, you know, she's in the surface industry. She gets it. I'm the same way, quite frankly. Honestly, I would be like, and then they're just going to throw it out.

I should just eat it. And then it totally goes to waste. No, exactly. So Leah's not thrilled with this turn of events. And neither is deaf, but they're also an hour away. And they've been driving for like seven hours straight at this point. They don't have anywhere else to stay. So Leah responds like, oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that.

Please let us know if there's anything we can do to help. And thank you again for letting us stay. So about an hour later, Leah and Dev arrive at the cabin. Silas is already sitting on the huge wraparound porch ready to greet them. If you have seen the show's succession, Silas gives like a member of the Pierce family, like the old money family that the Roy's hate. Yeah, he's wearing a bow tie and a sweater and a collared shirt, despite the fact that it's 9 a.m. and already approaching 80 degrees because it's Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Love it. Love it. That's how you greet your guests. Yeah. Well, some other important things to know about Silas. He is a former philosophy professor, and he comes from family money. These two things are perhaps related. I couldn't say. As is the fact that since he retired, Silas has taken to describing himself as an independent scholar. Okay. Okay. One of his books on the Roman Empire is actually ranked number 798. Roman Empire. I should have guessed, Roman Empire.

I was all on board until it was Roman Empire. Yeah. Silas is also a huge foodie. He's become even more so during the pandemic, like if there is a way to experience an ingredient three ways in one course. Sign that man the fuck up. That's great. Good for him. This probably helps explain what happens next.

Leah and Dev greet Symmythe Silas. They exchange elbow bumps because it's COVID. And it's as they're unloading the car that Silas spots a bag. This bag comes from an establishment that may or may not be known for its golden arches. Okay. That's all I will be saying. Silas sees the bag and says with what sounds like genuine dismay in his voice, you guys eat that stuff? Yeah.

I mean, I would be the Silas in this situation. I'm such an incorrigible snob. road trip time. Like, that's what you eat on a road trip. I feel like this question would immediately, like, get my backup. Just somebody coming at me out of nowhere about what I'm eating. But how would you feel? Yeah, that's a hard way to start the conversation.

Yeah. You eat that stuff. It depends on what the stuff is. Yeah. These are vegetarians. Exactly. So. Exactly.

And Leah is tired. She's not had a shower in, like, 36 hours. And as a person who is vegetarian before. 2014, she's kind of used to people asking really invasive questions about her diet. So she's like, we don't eat it that often since we don't eat meat, but the egg sandwiches are my guilty pleasure. And then because she can tell Silas is not really impressed with this answer, she's like, they're actually better than pretty much anything else on the menu. They crack a real egg to make them. Silas is like, oh, you're vegetarian, but you eat eggs. And Leah's like,

yeah, vegans are the ones who don't eat eggs. Yeah. So then Silas is like, Do you eat fish? And Leah says, no. But then she's like, well, technically we do eat scallops. And Leah explains that since scallops are bivalves, they don't feel pain. And then just to like warm silas up, Leah laughs and she's like, and they're also delicious. Cute. Yeah, I remember hearing that argument.

I think oysters too, they're like basically vegetables. Yeah. I know a lot of vegetarians who eat those. Yeah. And they are delicious. They are. I feel like heavy with a scallop. Tasty, tasty, tasty, Tray.

Yeah. Silas sort of like cocks his head at this and he's like, do you eat snails? And Leah's like, ew, no. Thankfully, at this point, death finishes on loading the car, thus saving Leah from the rest of this conversation. Silas gives him a tour of the main house, which is just as stunning as Leah remembers. But the last time she visited, she'd actually only seen the main living area because she was mostly in the guest house. So this time, she gets to see the massive kitchen with this professional espresso.

machine and double induction burner. Wow. There's a gym in the basement with multiple barbells. The whole upstairs is taken up by Silas and Tabitha's bedroom in their offices, but the guest room on the first floor is a California King deck. The sliding door opens onto the back deck. Incredible. And the onsuit bathroom is even more beautiful than the one in the guest house. There's a waterfall shower and a huge cloth-foot tub beside a huge window looking out over the desert.

Oh, wow. I also feel like during the pandemic, I took a lot of baths. Like, that was to feel something. It was really vital to take a bath. And it was. That would have been amazing. I need to feel water on my body. Sensory deprivation.

Yeah, exactly. Ah, touch. It feels amazing. Human touch. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, Leah fully gasped at the side of this tub. She's like, oh, my God. I can't wait to take a bath.

And Silas kind of shakes his head. And he's like, actually, that reminds me. And he pulls a little white timer out of his pocket and hands it to Dev. And Silas is like, here's your shower timer. In case you haven't heard New Mexico is going through a drought. Responsible. I hate how much I relate to this. This is so mortifying.

I know what I'm supposed to think. But I'm like, good, responsible. At least this is a kind of rich person who's not like above, you know. Yeah. Above the law. He can just do whatever he wants. Exactly. Cyrus is like, we shower every other day and we run the water for no more than

10 minutes at a time. So you're a guest in someone else's home. Would you observe this rule? Yeah. I mean, when I lived in California, I really was like trying to think of ways I would like shower with a bucket and then try to use that bucket to like flush the toilet. I was really trying to think of ways that I could like optimize water. I don't know. I respect it. I respect the project. Yeah. Leah has no intention of following these rules. Yeah. To silence his face, Leah is like, yeah, totally. But as far as As Leah's concerned, she's on vacation and she's a recovering people pleaser. So technically not following these rules is actually great exposure therapy if you think about it.

I don't know, sorry. I'm like that's a social. We live in a society and we live on a planet. I'm sorry. I'm like unrepentant people pleaser. I think people, I think we all have to please each other if we're going to survive. Yeah. But okay, Leah, you're on your journey.

Okay. Silas hands him this timer and then he's like, I'm going to go get Tabitha some lunch in town, do you guys want anything? And Leah and DeV are like, nope, see you later. And as soon as Silas pulls out the driveway, Leah lights some candles and pulls that tub right up to the brim. As Leah settles in for a long soak, she's like, maybe staying in the main house with Silas for the next three weeks won't be so bad. And then Leah's phone buzzes. It's a text from Silas. He started a group chat with her and Dev. Without any sort of preamble, like not even a high, Silas just drops the link in the chat. And Leah clicks the link.

which leads to a website that says that the scrambled eggs made at the restaurant with the golden arches are not, in fact, cracked fresh. Instead, they are made from liquid egg product, which is stored in bags. Okay. Did I miss a memo? Is there supposed to be like an introduction to every text? I don't know. I just feel like it was a continuation of the conversation they were just having. You said, I'm feeling more and more kin with silence. I hate it. I don't, I'm not proud. I just. I am him. I'd be like, I googled what you said, and it's not right. Like, that's me.

Say it loud and say it proud. We accept people of all strikes here. Oh, God. He's not doing anything wrong. He's getting them a sandwich in town. This does fully kill Leah's bath-induced buzz. She calls Dev into the bathroom's event. She's like, this doesn't even prove anything.

I was talking about the egg sandwiches, not the scrambled eggs, which are different. And she makes Devin sit and watch her find an article that proves her point. And she's like, should I send this to him? And Devin's like, babe, it's our first day here. Maybe let's just leave it. I think that Silas enjoys the intellectual forsohn and she should send it because he would be curious. He strikes me as a curious guy. And she should send it.

But, okay, they decided not to. Yeah, if I were, well, if I were, I would do a lot of things differently. I would have a little shallow tub, still light the candles. I'd still be very happy. And I would be like, uh-huh, I didn't know that. Here's what I found. That's fair. Well, right at this moment, Leah gets a text from Tabitha.

And it reads, Welcome, my dear. I just woke up from a nap and I saw your car in the driveway. I'm so, so glad you're here. I told Silas to make sure he takes extra good care of you two. And then Tabitha is like, please forgive him if he's a little bit crotchety. It's been a while since we've had guests,

and he's been lonely. He's very excited you two are here. There are extra sheets and towels in the hall closet if you need them. Oh, this is sweet. This makes sense. This does soften Leah's heart. And if there's a person Leah wants to please in this equation, it is definitely Tabitha. So Leah decides to forget the whole scramble deck thing.

She thumbs up reacts to the link that Silas sent. A violent act. I feel the same way. Who uses the thumbs up? I'm sorry. Whenever anyone thumbs up instead of heart reacts, I'm like, oh, so you hate me. They hate me. Exactly.

This is like the most American thing about me. I'm like, you have to love it. If you like it, you hate me. You hate me. Yeah. No, I really have to like adjust my reaction when someone thumbs up because I'm like, it's okay, Rachel. You're safe. As Silas, if I sent that link and she thumbed up it, I'd be like, I was so excited to have these guests and now they're going to leave.

I just think she had to be a little nicer. Yeah. Okay, whatever. She gives a thumbs up. She gives a thumbs up. She finishes her bath. She and Dev put on House Moving Castle. and they fall asleep in the giant California king bed.

Incredible. By the time they wake up, it's almost 6 p.m. They're both starving. They decide to head into town for dinner. And Leah is worried that if they see Silas while they're leaving the house, he'll want to eat dinner together. And Leah's like, I'm not in the move for that right now.

Okay. To avoid this, she suggests that they jump off the back deck and walk around the house to get to their van. And Dev is like, Leah, I think you might be being paranoid. Yeah, that's kind of... Do you think Leah is being paranoid? Yes. That is new levels of antisocial.

I'm sorry. If you've forfeited your home and you're living off of other people, I, in fact, I think the thing to do would be like, Silas, we are going to take you out. Thank you. You can't, I'm sorry, I don't relate to this at all. It's true. They're saying in his house for free. I forget about that part of the story. Yeah. It's their first night. I think other nights you can kind of avoid. But you got to be like, thank you so much. Yeah. Well, Lee and Dev walk quietly down the hall toward the kitchen and the living room. The house is all dark. They're almost at the door. When a lamp suddenly clicks on over an armchair that holds none other than Silas. Iconic. An amazing entrance. Kind of a cunty move. I love it.

Silas is like, did you read the article I sent you? So he's a little spectrum. That's fine. He's just a little ghost-like. That's his love language. He sends links. Some of us do that. That's okay.

Okay. But she did read the article. Yeah, Leah is torn between people pleasing and wanting to correct Silas so badly. And Dev can tell. So he jumps in and is like, not yet. We actually just woke up from a nap. We're going to get some food in town. Okay.

I feel like it's not that complicated. I feel like you'd be like, I read it and raised some interesting points. And it's a different sandwich we were talking about. Yeah. Sometimes I do feel like people avoid conflict so much that it simply makes it more complicated. 100%. And also, as one who apologizes. at the drop of the hat, I feel like it's not that difficult to be wrong.

It's not. It's not. This is enough to distract Silas, though. He brines immediately. He has some of what restaurant they're going to. While Leah was taking your bath earlier, Dev had found a brewery with really good cauliflower buffalo wings. So when he names this brewery, Silas is immediately like, no, that place is terrible.

Everyone gets food poisoning there. Oh. And then he's like, I have an idea. Tabitha and I had a reservation tonight for dinner at the most amazing Chilean restaurant in town. It's got two Michelin Stars. Obviously, we're not able to go, because Tabitha has COVID. Would you like to take over a reservation? They have the most incredible roles.

They're called Pond Amasado. Now, I would take a Michelin Star reservation from my friend's rich Rcy parents because I love to drop $100 on dinner before buying a drink. Yes. What would you do if we were Leah and Dev, who are famously not flush in trash? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I probably could not do that. Yeah. I would probably just say, we're unemployed right now. We can't really do that. Yeah. That sounds lovely. Well, Lee is actually very brave in this moment. A year ago, she would have just blown a hole in her savings to avoid saying no.

But this time, she's like, that sounds really lovely. But unfortunately, we're on a bit of a budget right now. So we're going to go to the brewery. Well said. Yeah. And to his credit, Silas takes us very gracefully. He's like, suit yourself. And they say goodbye.

Lee and Dev escape. They have their colithar buffalo wings. They have a great time. They get back to the house. Everyone's asleep. They're like, wow, I'm so excited to sleep in the next morning. Oh, no, do they get food poisoning? Well, just after 7 a.m.

Leah and Dev are both awoken by the sound of a voice echoing in their bedroom. Silas's voice, to be specific. Good morning, Silas says. I hope I'm not waking you. He's there in the room? They both shoot up out of bed. They are terrified Silas is in the room. He's not.

They don't see him. And for a moment, they're both like, are we sharing a hallucination? Did we get food poisoning? Yeah. Silas speaks again. He says, I made breakfast. I'm going to take over some to Tabitha. There's plenty on the stove if you want some.

And it's at this moment that Lee and Dev realized that Silas's voice is coming from a speaker embedded into the wall. I love it. I love it. Ciz us. Silas is like, I use farm fresh eggs from the farmer's market. So I hope you enjoyed breakfast. Great. There are worst ways to wake up.

That's fine. That's true. There are definitely worse ways to wake up. So you would not like to be woken up that way. Yeah. No, I'm not a morning person at all. Everyone who works with me is aware of that. It is such a thing that close friends warn other people when they meet me in the morning

because they're a little bit like you're meeting a different person. For a long time, I was like, oh, I'm really being a bitch. It's not even really that. There's just nothing going on. So you're just like? Just blank faced, which compared, I think, to my normal demeanor. It's very jarring. I'm just like, yeah.

My sister is a similar way. She's like, you cannot talk to her. It's not happening. So I have to imagine that Leah and Dev are a bit more like that. I'm like, what? Eggs? Like, great. Yeah.

This is too early for me to enjoy anything. But Dev goes out to investigate once they hear the front. He does, right? He does. He goes out to investigate once they hear the front door open and closed and he comes back with a tray loaded with coffee. fresh squeezed orange juice and a huge beautiful french omlin incredible Lee is like okay fine it's fine I'm fine it's okay I'm awake right now as she endeavor eating tabitha texts them good morning

Silas just told me he used the intercom on you I'm so sorry I keep telling him not to do that to guest he says he won't do it again I hope you have a lovely day Silas and Tabitha have such a funny relationship. It's like the John Malaney bit about the subway platform announcements where there's one voice. It's like, stand clear the closing doors. And then there's a quieter voice. It's like, next stop is Canal Street. Like you have both. You need the tempering force. And Tabitha is the. I feel like those two people do end up married to each other very often. The two announcers. Yes. You can't have too loud people. I have also seen that couple. Great wedding. Phenomenal party.

Oh my God, I'm sure. Yeah. Do you think you could take three weeks of this? It sounds like you'd be down to hang out with Silas for a hot minute. I'm like, tell me all about ancient Rome. Like, let's go. I'm down as much as I live to people, please. I have no problem being like, I'm going to go read.

I got to go take some time. Like, it's not that hard to carve out space for yourself. I don't know. I mean, granted, Leanne Dev might be a little sensitive because they haven't had their own space for a while now. That's true. That's true. I don't know. Could you handle this? Is this too much for you? No. I think as both a people pleaser and a rule follower, the 7 a.m. wake up call, it would take something out of me. I'm not going to lie. But after the first time where presumably he doesn't do that again, I'd just be like, you know what? I kind of love talking to older people. They're really easy to please. If you're a person who looks young, who just smiles and is polite, they're a little bit like you're so much better than everyone of your generation. I'm not even joking. All the old people in my neighbor love me. Oh, I bet.

And that's the thing. I really don't mind if someone just talks about themselves as long as they're interesting. Then it's just like you get to watch the show. Yeah. That's fine. Well, after their early morning wake-up call, neither Lee and or Dev can fall back asleep. So they actually end up deciding to take a hike in the desert before it gets too hot. It's probably the highlight of the whole trip.

And by the time they get back to Tabith and Silas's house is mid-afternoon, they're pulling up to the house. They see Silas sitting on the porch, just like he was when they arrived, bow-tie and all. It is hot enough that he has shut his sweater. Cool. All right. He's a human. At the side of him, Lee, is like, oh, God. And Dev just squeezes her hand. And he's like, it's okay. We'll just tell him we're tired and sweaty from the hike and we'll just keep walking. I love Dev. That's correct. Yeah.

They walk up to Silas who was totally engrossed in his phone so engrossed that he barely greets them. He's just like, nice hike. And they're like, yeah, it was great. And he goes back to whatever he is like feverishly typing on his phone. He barely lifts his head. to remind them to use a shower timer. What do you think Silas is up to? And more importantly, do you care? No, I don't care what he's up to on it.

I mean, whatever. It's COVID. Our world is on our phone. Also, it's like, she's upset that he's too in their business, and now she's insulted that he's not in their business at all. I'd be like, great. Choose what you want. Choose what you want.

I'm going to go play with my phone too. I love to play with my phone. You play with your phone, I'll play with my phone. I'll play with my phone. It's fine. I do love to play with my phone. Same. Leah is not going to lie. She's a little thrown off, but she's also not want to look a gift horse in the mouth.

So she's like, I'll even use a shower timer because Silas was so nice. Is this because Silas is in the house and would probably hear her draw a bath? Probably. Probably. It is as Leah is getting out of the shower that she receives the text. You see, apparently right after Leah had had that fateful conversation with Silas about vegetarianism and Scalips, Silas decided to reach out to one of his friends, a professor of neuroscience. And this professor has helped Silas craft an extensive essay slash diatribe about why Leah is wrong

to think that scallops don't feel pain. Oh my God. This essay slash diatribe includes an extensive list of citations featuring everything from studies on the nervous system to philosophers. Silas is out here quoting extensively from Thomas Nagel's essay, what does it like to be a bat? He is citing Daniel Dennett on consciousness and the nature of pain. He's quoting Peter Singer on utilitarianism and implications for animal rights. Like, Silas has effectively written a dissertation in the past 36 to 48 hours based off a two-minute long conversation.

Incredible. I could never. That's amazing. And you're right. And you're right. I'm amazed. Our friend of a friend actually sent a screen recording of her scrolling through this text. And the video is a full 25 seconds long, not to read the text.

Just to scroll through it. There are thousands of words. Oh, so all the words are in a text message. Yes. That is so weird. Yeah. That's really weird. Yeah. I think I would be as insulted as I would be flattered.

Really? Really both in equal measure. Be like, oh my God, you really thought about what I said. Yeah. Okay. First question, do you read this whole text? It is thousands of words. If I'm being honest, probably not.

Definitely. Yeah, not at first. Maybe after I calm down a little bit, I might consider it. But no, I'd be, that's so weird. Also, I just reading a text that long, I doubt there are proper paragraph breaks. I'd be like email it to me. This is not the format. Yeah.

Leah tries to just like scroll back to the top of the text just to get to the beginning of it. And even that takes too long. But poor sweet dove offers to read the text. Dev is like, if I'm wrong, I want to know. Like, I don't want to spread misinformation. And this is COVID, so there was a lot of scientific misinformation spreading. I love him. I know.

We can't blame Deb for being sensitive. Yeah. And curious. Yeah. Leah's like, you've got to be kidding me. But Dev is not kidding. So Leah decides to take her cortisol levels down by taking a bath. Oh, no.

She's like, fuck that man in his shower timer. So 40 whole minutes later, Dev knocks on the bathroom. room door and he's like, babe, none of this stuff actually proves that we're wrong. Ooh. And he's smart. This guy rocks. Deb tells her that all the philosophical stuff is just theories, which tends to be true with philosophy.

And all the scientific articles that Silas cited are just like the jury's out. Like there is no definitive evidence in this essay slash diatribe that scallops can feel pain. So how would you proceed from here? You've been proven correct. You've also received a dissertation from a man down the hall. All right. Well, I do feel like it means the jury's out. Like, in a weird way, it's kind of perfect at the stillmate.

Like, no one knows if scallops feel pain. And so then it comes down to a matter of personal choice. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, if that's such a pissy little move to text all of that, I'd like to imagine that I would engage him. But I don't want to get in an argument. I don't want to start yelling?

Yelling. Yeah. As you said, if you're a young enough person who just kind of like nods and smiles and acts interested, I think I'd be like fascinating theories. Thank you so much. Like, very interesting. Yeah. I would be like, this is above my head. I took two philosophy courses and that was in Paris where I was doing more important things than doing the reading.

You did? I did. Wait, cool. Were they in French? No. Okay. No, I barely understood them in English. That's so chic.

That's so cool. You studied philosophy in Paris. You know, I took a critical theory course. It was supposed to be on, like, media, and then it was about, yeah, Peter Singer. But. Fascinating. Unimportant. No, see, I feel like that's the perfect redirect for Silas to be like, ah, philosophy.

No, it's like, wow. Wow, let's open this up. Hi, Dinger. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Leah's fired the fuck up. She didn't... She's sensitive. And she honestly never really cared if they were right. But now that they are, she's ready for war.

But she's not dumb. She recognizes that they're still in this man's house. So she sends what she considers to be a very measured response. Leah writes, I'm not going to get into the details, but just so you know, we also have other reasons that we maintain this dietary preference. Okay. I was going to stop it right there. I think texting in the same home is like, weird I am not into texting I feel like that is also an active aggression texting in the same home save it

you're there I don't know unless there is a reason to text Tabitha who is infirmed but this is okay yeah I mean that's a good response yeah I must admit I do sometimes be texting in my own home when I go home I'm texting my little brother to be like can you go to Chick-fil-A

for me but no no no no no no no see that's That's practical. Yeah. It's a practical little note. Yeah. I think practical little notes are fine. Yeah.

But, but like, like, no conversations. No conversations. I don't have those over texts anyway. I hate texting. Yeah. Especially, oh my God. I mean, like, couple friends of mine who like,

argue over text in the home. Like, Leah's like walking on the edge of that. No, it's true. Wow. No, it's dressed me out so profound. No, no. I feel like, you know, I'm going to town. Do you want a sandwich?

Yeah. That's a fine text for the home. That's a no. That's fine. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. Well, Silas texts back immediately, and he says, your other reason is that scallops are delicious, right?

At this point, Leah sees red. She's like, who does this man think he is? Yeah, that's annoying. It's like, let her have her choices. Yeah. Would this be enough to make you leave? No, I don't think it'd make me leave, but I'd probably be like, sure, I don't know, man. Like, this is, I don't want to fight.

Yeah. I would get this sometimes as a vegetarian, like, oh, well, you know. You know, like, chickens are still mistreated for their eggs. Do you not care about that? Or why do you wear leather? It's like, these are all great questions. I'm on my journey. I'm working towards it.

I don't know. I'm a human. Yeah, I'm a human. None of our politics are entirely, you know, consistent. Leah is considering leaving. Like, the tub is great, but it's not worth it if she's just going to have to keep fighting with this man. So she and Deb decide that Asylas does anything else.

They'll find somewhere else to stay. And Tabitha's in a very apologetic text. like an hour after this. She's like, I'm so sorry about Silas. His people's skills are a little bit rusty. And he just loved sharing his research. I sent him out to get us all dinner. I'm sorry, this is also such a rich person thing. Like, you know, like, rich people who are like, they can't. They can't help themselves. Well, like, they, like, have a weird way of interacting with people. I feel like that's how I've found out people who are stealth wealthy. I'm like, oh, you like, you act kind of weird. Yeah. Oh, you're rich. It's interesting.

I don't know. I'm going to be thinking about that now. Not all rich people, whatever. But I think if he's used to having sort of everyone at his beck and call and people telling him that he's right and being the best and being right, he's not used to getting. And he was also a philosophy professor. Right. He wants the discourse. He wants the argument or he wants to be right.

He's not into just being pleasant and getting along. Or perhaps all three. The discourse, the argument ultimately ending in him being right. Correct. Yeah. That's a dream. But, you know, a little while later, Lee and Dev get a text from Silas, and it says, I apologize for sending you my research earlier today without asking first.

I brought you dinner from the Chilean restaurant I mentioned the other day. It's in the kitchen. It's going to be scallops. Oh, my God. Is it Scalps? Well, she and Dev go off to the kitchen. And Silas is there with boxes and boxes of delicious smelling food. There's bean stew.

There's some of the rolls that Silas loves, the pan amissado. And in his little bow ties, Silas looks so innocent. So Leah takes a deep breath. She reminds herself that her friend had warned her that her parents were a little bit lonely. And as they're serving themselves food, Silas is even like, I really do apologize. Tabitha tells me I need to try to talk these things out in person instead of texting. And Dev is like, we understand. It's okay.

And then Silas is like Tabitha says I've gotten out of practice talking to people with retirement and the pandemic. And Leah is like, yeah, me too, I guess. Sweet. And then Silas is like, what do you think of the pan on Masato? And both Leah and Dev try the rolls. They're like warm and fresh. They taste amazing. And Silas is like, tasty, right?

And Dev is like, yeah. So I was like, what do you think, Leah? And Leah's like, really good. And then Silas breaks out in a huge grin. And he's like, well, gotcha. They're made with lard. But since they're so delicious, it's fine for you to eat them, right? That's horrible.

That's really mean. What would you do here? I would have that reaction. I would just be like, why would you do that? Yeah. No one's denying that animal byproduct tastes good. That's like why. Are you kidding?

That's why people eat it. People don't like to just inflict pain on animals. It's like actively tricking someone into eating lard. That's really mean. Leah is like, that's it. We're leaving. We're getting out of here. She doesn't even look to see if Deb is following her.

That would honestly make me leave. That's really, that's really in bad faith. That's what I mean. Yeah. She, like, goes back to their room and starts packing up their stuff. Silas, luckily, does not follow them. But when they're bringing their stuff outside to the van, they find Silas sitting outside on the porch again. And it's at this moment that Leah is like, I'm done.

I'm going to let this man have it. So while Dev loads up all their stuff in the van, Leah is like, I'm not one of your students. I don't have to prove myself to you. It is none of your business what I chose to eat or what my reasons are, tricking us to eating lard is fucked up. You clearly have some shit you need to work through. Good, good for Leah. Leah thinks she did great up to this point.

In fact, she told us that she wishes she left it there. Oh no. I know that would have been so good. Oh, no, no, no, no. But then she kept going. No. Leah says, and all that stuff you sent along from your professor buddy didn't actually disprove our point about scallops.

I think that's fair to bring up. No, a little tossing. Well, Silas ignores everything. she said up until that last part. He is ready to roll up his sleeves and debate. He's like, actually, if you read Dennett's work on consciousness and sensation,

and at this moment, Leah realizes that Tabith is out on the porch of the guesthouse across the driveway from them, and at first, she's just listening to all this happening, but then she starts shouting and her voice is like raspy and fucked up because she has COVID, but you can still hear her. And Tapatha is like, Silas, she doesn't

want to talk about the scallops. It's about her feelings. She She wants to talk about how you made her feel. And Silas is like, exactly. Scalips have feelings. And Tabith is like, Silas, she wants you to apologize. You need to apologize. Silas finally stops talking for five long seconds and everyone just kind of waits.

And then Silas says, I'm sorry you feel this way. La. No. Oh my God. When did this become a thing that everyone thinks that counts? as an apology. I'm sorry that you feel this way. That's at the end. That's where I start to seem really unreasonable. Like when people say it to me, I lose it. I get apoplectic. It's like this, this. It does nothing. You threw water on a grease fire. Like it does it actually is insulting.

I would rather you not apologize to say, I'm sorry you feel this way. Because the thing is, I'm not sorry I feel this way. I feel this way because you fucked up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the opposite of an apology. Yeah. Not taking any personal responsibility. It's not practicing any empathy for how they might feel. It is like, oh, it's going to turn me into the Hulk. I really hate that. I hate that so much. Oh, I'm so glad you hate it.

Everybody knows this now, right? Does everybody know this now? I think so. But people still say it. I feel like it's yet to be shamed in the way that it must be shamed. I feel like people, again, intellectually know it, but when they're in the heat of the moment and actually feeling the shame of having to apologize, it comes out of like, I'm sorry you feel this way.

And it's a little bit like, I don't believe that, quite frankly. I think you're lying and I don't care. Yeah. And you're just trying to be like, okay, I'm ending. Like, let's just end it. You're not taking a moment to imagine how they would feel. Yeah. Well, we're almost within of our story.

Do you think there's any salvaging this situation? Driving away, leaving. Yeah. Yeah. That is exactly what happens. Wow. We end up get in their car and drive away. They find a campground to stay in, which turns out to be lovely even if it isn't free.

As they're pitching their tent for the night, they get a text from Tabitha, who writes, I'm so sorry about my husband. Thanks for keeping the bedroom so clean, you left it better than you found it. Aw. We love Tabitha. And also, is she okay out there? Like, alone with Silas. It's true.

And that is basically the end of our story. Oh, my God. I do have some updates, but I have a few questions for you first. Okay. Who is the villain in the story? this story. Remember you were on Silas' aside for a while? I was on Silas' aside for a long time. And as arguments go, this is an entertaining argument. And as I was thinking about Tabitha and Silas's life, I'm like, I'm sure their arguments are very interesting, which is really important.

Yeah. You know, it's not like who did the dishes. It's like, do scallops feel pain? No, exactly. That's interesting. Yeah. I was on Team Silas. Yeah, it's like a weird thing to do to your guests. Yeah. I mean, come on, who else could it be? It's true. COVID. That's the real one. COVID's the villain here.

If Tabitha had been there. No, it's true. That is a really, let's say, popular dynamic with couples where I'm like, as a couple, lovely. If I have to hang out with your husband by myself, we're going to fight. Yeah. It's going to be a fight. Yeah. No, the villain's COVID.

The villain's COVID. Yeah. Okay. And then second question, would you tell your friend about this incident, the friend who's the child of Tabith and Silas? and is the one who got you this free housing. I mean, they're going to find out. I mean, would they, though?

You just left early. Who knows if Silas is going to be like, I willingly gave your vegetarian friends some lard? I think I'd start with a probing question. Or I'd be like, man, your dad's a real character, you know? Yeah. That's a good. That's how I know you're good at gossiping.

Yeah. Everyone's always like, how do you get good at gossiping? Ask a really specific pointed question. But that's like, round. and not two-pointed. Just, huh, your dad, it's a real character. I still think there could have been a way to engage with him. And he's like a dog who wants to play.

You gotta play with him the way he wants to play. Yeah. I think Deb should have gotten in the fray and been like, I read your essay and like, these are the points. Yeah. Yeah, the large thing was too much though. The light thing was too much.

That's fair. Well, the updates are Silas ended up adapting his text message to Leah and Deb into a long essay, which he's self-pubbeded titled Vegetarianism. hedonistic calculus and hypocrisy, and it currently rakes number 3,000 in ethics and morality. Leah and Dev ended up giving their van up for an apartment. They decided that hell is other people and having your own place is actually a good thing. Oh.

And our final update is a full year after this. Leah sees she has an Instagram message in her request. She is barely on Instagram and rarely checks a message request from people she doesn't know. And this message is from someone whose username is Kant is king. Oh, my God. She opens up this message and she's like, oh, my God. There are so many messages in this chat. Many of them are about scallops, but there's one long message about how trauma is a buzzword.

Oh. Leah had blocked Silas's number as soon as she left Santa Fe, so she goes ahead and blocks its Instagram account too. Oh, no. And that is the end of our story. Oh, no. That's wild. Fascinating. Yeah.

He just really fixed it. He was like a dog with a bone. He just... Sometimes I do think that academia is keeping people away from us that it should be. It just corrals them off in their little ivory towers. It's like sometimes you nerds do only need to be talking to each other. This is fun for you guys. For me, this feels like an attack.

Oh, my God. I mean, that's kind of fascinating if it wasn't so. But although the Instagram messages are... that he was just going to poke. Yeah. Honestly, you could really keep going into like horror movie IP. Yeah. No, sometimes people send those stories and I'm like, oh, I see how the horror movies happen.

Yes. If more people were actually evil, instead of just weird, people would die. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at NormalGossip at Defector.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at support normalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip.

You can follow me on all social media at Hey Deney. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at Defector Media to watch today's episode. Normal Gossip is written by me, Rachel Hampton, and J. Tolviera. This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley Ricks and J. Tolviera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatsitt. Emily Cherish is our video editor. Theme music composed by Rishi Kesheirway. The co-creators endowered your queens in Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney and DeFectors'

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Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Roth, Catherine Shue, Sabrina Ember, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Roddo for your help with this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I am your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this from me.