Normal Gossip - S1 Ep1: Gossiptonin with Virgie Tovar

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

Author, activist, and podcast host Virgie Tovar joins us for our first ever gossip story! Join us as we revel in a messy grad school cohort and go on a camping trip with a dog named Pancake. Check out Virgie’s podcast Rebel Eater’s Club and pre-order her new book, The Body Positive Journal. Episode transcript available here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Subscribe to Defector Media and get your first month for 99 cents at defector.com/normalgossip

Hey, quick favor. We are conducting an audience survey. We'd be really grateful if you could take just a few minutes and answer it. Please visit survey.prx.org slash gossip to take the survey today. That's survey.prx.org slash gossip. Thank you. It's like in the buffet of things that are pleasurable in our culture. Like gossip is on the table with like Snickers and stuff, you know. Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. This week, we have the amazing Virgil Tovar on. She's the host of the podcast Rebel Eaters Club and author of several books, including one coming out this year called The Body Positive Journal. Thank you so much for

coming on. What have you been up to? How are you? Thank you for having me. Hello. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm noticing that a lot of my friends and I fared really well in sort of the first wave early pandemic. And now we're sort of all falling apart. And we have a theory that it's trauma. We're like, right, like in the depths, like if your team trauma, which I am and many of my friends are, you cannot fall apart as the thing that is going to traumatize you is unfolding. You have to hold it all in. And then when the coast has sort of started to clear, then you can utterly fall apart. Yeah, I'm laughing just because this is a conversation I feel like I'm also having and that I'm also having with my therapist a lot, right? Is like, how do you deal

with the trauma of last year currently? Yes. And I don't, I wish, if you know the answer to it, let me know because I would love to just skip forward. It's kind of funny. We like the idea for this podcast talking about gossip came in like the true depths of the pandemic when I was like, oh, there's absolutely nothing for me to talk to my friends about that isn't just like depressing as hell. Right. And I had this like, like fear when we started actually beginning the process of starting it that, oh, this would no longer be relevant anymore, right? That everyone would have returned back into the world and would no longer feel the need for this like normal gossipy, fun information. And now I'm miserable again. So I'm like, oh, great. Yes,

yes, totally. Well, I mean, I think it really gets into like, I mean, ahead of our conversation, I was kind of thinking about like, that the sensation in your body that you get when you're gossiping and how it's so pleasurable. And as someone who's like very interested in the body and like the corporeal experience, I'm like, oh, yeah, that kind of like that release of is it serotonin? I don't even know gossip toned. It's like so good. It's so sweet, you know. Will you tell me what your relationship is to gossip? Like how do you feel in your body? How do you feel about gossiping? First of all, right? Like, okay, so I think gossip gets like a bad rap, okay? So like, I have different categories of what might

be called gossip, right? So like, there's gossip that is, you know, it's about venting that's largely about destabilizing and making fun of systems. You know, like this weird thing that happened where you like, I mean, like, example, I haven't been in college in a minute, but like, you know, that moment where you're like, you know that your professor is a sexist, you aren't really going to tell him that in the office hours, but you all should probably talk about it with your friends, right? And so as a nerd and someone who's sort of like has a scholarly ish background, I'm interested in the role of gossip as like, you know, underground information networks, like any kind of underground information can be maybe seen as gossip. And I just think

about like, how important it is for people who are marginalized, who, you know, maybe historically or even now, it's not safe for them to voice their discomfort or their disdain or their, you know, whatever, like it's just not safe for them, whether it's economic, whether it's physical safety. And then I think about how before me to even you have no recourse legally, even though you had technical legal recourse, the criteria for conviction was so rigorous, and women weren't believed, you know, when there's no legal recourse, you can't look to the system to help you out. What other way are you going to share information like this person is not safe? And I sort of think like that goes under and that comes out in that kind of tone that I think people read as gossip,

you know? Yeah, I grew up very evangelical, and I'm not anymore, but the way that gossip was taught to me was very much like it's a sin and particularly it's women's sin, right? And the older I've gotten, the more I've realized that that is an intentional decision by someone to kind of suppress conversations that could be critical of power. Absolutely. Because I always, you know, when we think of gossip, we think of it as like, oh, it's just a funny story, it's just someone's like little petty drama, but I do think there's some social current network to gossip that teaches you like, oh, if my friend is mad that her boyfriend did this, then like probably my boyfriend shouldn't do that either, right? And like, that's so fascinating to me. Yes. Did you grow up a gossip?

Would you consider yourself a gossip? I mean, yeah, I think like, here's what's difficult, right? And I think this is very common of people who have a lot of trauma like me, where I'm a person of color, I'm fat, I'm a woman. And, you know, the combination of those things in our culture are often going to lead to some level of institutional trauma. And that might bleed into like, you know, intergenerational family trauma, which is like, I feel like both of those things are real. And when I think about gossip, I do think about it as there's a respectability component, which is obviously also connected to morality. Like I remember sort of growing up after I grew up and went to college and was in like largely white, wealthy spaces, my love of

gossip growing up and like, you know, and my natural inclination towards it was sort of frowned upon in this new sort of classed space. But anyway, I mean, to go back to sort of like my relationship to it, I think that I love it because it's subversive. I love gossip because it's it's poo pooed. I mean, I just love I'm sort of like a troll at heart, you know, I like really love to like be that person who ties like patriarchy shoelaces together. I mean, I just I feel like that's like who I am, you know, I think I talk shit all the time. Like, I mean, like literally today, I want them to tirade. And right, it's with my boyfriend. So I don't know that it like I do think there's sort of an interesting way where it's like, is it gossip? Like how close is the

person who's receiving the gossip have to be in order for it to be gossip? I think there is a little bit of an idea that there's like a bit of a social distance between you and the person who's you're gossiping with? Like, can you gossip with your partner who lives with you and hears every thought that you have and also your farts? Like, I don't know. I want to say yes. But I have no idea, right? Like, I tell my partner everything. And also, I demand that he hear every piece of gossip that I hear. So in that sense, it's certainly gossip, right? Translating what someone else told me. But if it's your own gossip, I don't know. It's a big word, right? That doesn't really mean much. Like the origin of the word gossip comes from like women's conversations in birthing

rooms. And so there's like no real current firm border on what gossip is. Yes, we're getting into like high gossip theory, which I love. Yeah, no, I think there is something. I think that's also what's great, right? And of course, this is just further proof that it's like it's a tool of the marginalized because it's slippery. Yeah, it really is like a strange... I mean, it's a weird conversation to have about what do you feel about gossip and how do you process it in your daily life when also like the end game of this podcast is for me to give you a really good gossip story, right? Like, it's kind of silly. It's kind of self-reverential in a like meta way. So like, let's say you and I have a friend, a mutual friend, and we go to drinks and we gossip about her,

right? That's clearly gossip. It's two people talking about someone that they know, right? But if it's our friend's friend of a friend's sister, what does that even mean? Right. Like, why do you think that we're inclined to do that, I guess? Oh, okay, yes, yes, yes, like the like the second, third, 15th hand gossip and how it can still be joyful and delicious. I mean, I understand, right? Because I think like on the one hand, right, it's not... I mean, the information is an important part of gossip, but the pleasure of gossip isn't necessarily about proximity. I think there's like an intimacy and I think that human beings just love that feeling. They love that feeling of closeness to another person. So I think there's that. I think

also, right, like, because I mean, I certainly have friends who are like only first degree, only one degree of separation gossip or less. Otherwise, I don't want to hear about it. Yeah. But I have friends who are like, I don't care how far removed it is. I want to hear it. So I know my friend's boundaries around gossip and that's very interesting. But I just think about like the people I know who are down for like the 15th degree of separation gossip. I mean, I think of them as like some of my like more fun friends who just love physical experiences, who love joy, who love like, you know, food. I'm just like, yeah, it's like in the buffet of things that are pleasurable in our culture. Like gossip is on the table with like snickers

and stuff, you know? I mean, I'm taking this as a huge compliment as someone that like if you called me and were like my sister's boyfriend's dog, Walker's best friend did something. Do you want to hear it? I would be like, please, what does she look like? Would you like to hear some gossip from a friend of a friend of mine? I'm ready. Oh my God. Okay. Yes. Let's do it. Let's do it. Today we have a group of graduate students in American studies at a big public university in the middle of the country. So they're all getting their doctorates. They're in this like tiny little cohort. It's probably like 12 people, but we're going to focus on a smaller group of

them today. And our main character, our friend of our friend is named Lexi. And you know, she's having a really hard time because there's kind of a cool kid group of people who are close and they're like winning all the awards and getting all of the attention and like they have all of these fellowships and all the professors like them. And Lexi wants to be their friend because not only are they important and kind of have this prestige factor, but they're really fun, right? They have all the parties at their group houses. Like they're always the ones that are like planning things for everyone to do. And Lexi's like, I just want to be their friend so badly. And even though she's in the fourth of her fifth year of her doctoral program, she's had like a

bunch of family stuff and hasn't really been in town. She hasn't really been able to kind of infiltrate this group, I guess. I already have so many feelings about all the players, just with the information you've given me. It's hilarious. Please. I'm out here like side-eyeing and being like, hmm, like tell me, tell me, why are you side-eyeing? I mean, so my first thought is I'm like, okay, anybody who is in a doctoral program and whose professors like them, I'm like, suspicious, suspicious. And then so I'm fully like, okay, Lexi, don't be their friends. This is a trap. Continue. Like literally in order to be liked within at that level of academia, you probably are a sociopath or you're someone who is like so good at gaming the system that you are somehow

maneuvering it constantly. Or you're someone who is so good at just staying individuated and neutral in all situations that you're not triggered by any of this. Those are the only three people who do well in academia. Oh, never mind. Fourth person has any number of problems, but it's super loaded and can pay their department any amount of money to do anything. So those are the four people who do well in academia. But she's lonely, right? And like she's been convinced, right, that like you need these professional connections in order to move forward in the field. So she's like, this is terrible. I've been trying to get into this group forever. Finally, I'm here. It's my fourth year. I'm going to get in. And she just like can't really find her way in. And she thought she had a

good connection because she was playing in like a recreational volleyball league. And the captain of the volleyball league was this like tall, very hot man named David, who was dating the like queen B of the group. So she was like, this is perfect. David will be my in. He will introduce me to Alicia, the queen B. David, of course, did not because it's a wreck volleyball team and like which boyfriend has ever introduced a random member of the wreck volleyball team to their entire girlfriends group of friends. But Lexi gets lucky. And right before Labor Day, Alicia comes up to her and she's like, Hey, six of us are going camping. Would you want to come? Oh, it's a trap. Why do you think it's a trap?

No, okay, keep going. This is just like as I'm listening, if we were like IRL and I would be like slurping up this tea, I'd be like trap. It does seem like a trap, but she's friendly, right? And she's like, we're going to go. It's this whole group that you want to be friends with, come with us. Okay. And Lexi is like, listen, I don't know how to camp. I have no experience with this. I don't have any of the gear. What am I supposed to do? Like I can't just roll out into a state park and like sleep on the ground for the night. Right. And Alicia is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not going to do that. You're not going to spend a million dollars at REI. You can just sleep in my tent with me as long as you're okay with just, you know,

my dog being there. Alicia has this really cute like little soft dog named pancake. That's the kind of girl she is. I mean, she's like $500 white t-shirts for G. Right. Now you said pancake was so much to stain and it was so wonderful. And she's like, you can share the tent with me and as long as you're okay with pancake and like chill with it, you can just stay in the tent with us. And Lexi is like, well, what about David? Because she knows David and she thinks, you know, if he's going on this trip, then maybe I'll have like a nice like pal, someone who can like banter with me. And Alicia is like, well, David's not going. He has work. He can't come. And Lexi is like, okay, you know, I'm not really thrilled

about being unprepared. I don't really have the money to like rent camping gear from REI where it's all like $300 somehow. I'm a poor little graduate student. And so you know what? Alicia has a fancy tent. Alicia has a fancy sleeping bag. I'm going to go. But like all of us who are like, okay, but I'm a little self conscious about the fact that I don't have enough money to be here. She goes to Costco and buys a bunch of snacks to compensate. Oh, yeah. Little Lexi card. So it's like a three hour drive, right? She gets there. The first night is great. Everyone gets there kind of late. They like set up the little, the little tents and everything. And everything is going great for Lexi. She meets the other people in the cohort and like gets to know them

a little better. There's a guy named James and a girl named Cassie and a couple other people who are not important to our story. So we will not learn their names. They're all having this kind of lazy evening. Lexi makes like a blueberry cobbler and a cast iron pan to like endear herself to them. She's like, perfect. Everything's going great. Everyone loves the like bubbling butter on top of my blueberry cobbler. I'm popular. And they wake up the next morning and Alicia's like, Hey, we're all going to go on an eight mile round trip hike to see this big, beautiful view. And Lexi is like, I do not know how to hike. I don't have shoes for this really, but you know what? I'm going to go. This is going to be fine. And it turns out fine, right? It's a

high elevation, but she manages it. The views are great. She gets to bonding with Cassie over like not liking nature and getting like bitten by all of these mosquitoes. And the whole time she's like, you know, this is fine. We're, we're doing okay. She gets back to the campground at four and she's like super tired, right? I mean, this is like an eight mile hike with like 3000 feet of elevation. Have you ever done a hike like this where do they're terrible? I mean, it sounds terrible. Like wearing the wrong shoes, you would just rather die, right? And they get back to the campground and she's exhausted. And this guy, James, he's like, you know what we should do? We should go on a night hike. And Lexi is like, no, I'm tired. I don't want to do this, but she's

self conscious and she doesn't want to tell this to her new friends. And so she's like frantically looking around, right? Like what can I do to get out of this? Yes. And she sees pancake and pancake is just like lying, you know, the way the dogs lie where it looks like someone just like pushed them over and they're like a little cow. Yes. Yes. He's just like lying like that. And she's like, listen, I don't think pancake wants to go on this hike. Look at him. He's so sleepy. It's so cold. Pancake can't go for another night hike. That's crazy. And Alicia is like, Oh my God, you're right. He does seem really cold. Would you like to stay with him? And Lexi is like, I sure would. Thank you. So she takes pancake for his like little nighttime walk and she gets it at the

tent and she goes to sleep. About an hour later, pancake wakes her up. He's whining. He's upset. He's doing that like whimper that really cute small dogs do. Oh yeah. And Lexi's like, maybe he needs to go out, right? Maybe he just wasn't comfortable with me and I just need to take him outside. So she like sits up and she puts on her shoes. Pancake is just getting like more and more upset and Lexi's starting to freak out, right? She's like, Oh my God, this dog is going to shit in the tent and then Alicia is going to hate me and they're all going to talk about this forever. Terrifying. He's crying really loudly. She opens the zipper when she hears really loudly. Shut up pancake. And it's Alicia's voice.

Yelling and pancake. Good dog sits. So Lexi is like, wait, Alicia is supposed to be on the night hike. Now it is clear to me that pancake is freaking out because he can either smell or hear Alicia. Yes. So she like pokes her head out of the tent pancake barks. Lexi is like looking around. She's using her iPhone light, right? You know, because she's not prepared. And the only tent that's lit up is James's. So she like sticks her little ear out, right? And what do you have a guess on what she hears? Tell me. Well, Vergey, she hears, you know, she hears some boning. She hears some sex noises. She's like, Oh my God, Alicia is hooking up in the cold. She has a boyfriend that everyone likes.

Her poor dog is in here freaking out. She's like, this is terrible. She can't sleep. Pancake is pacing back and forth. She's like, this is awful. I don't know what to do. Eventually she hears like the little zipper undo and Alicia comes into the tent. The next morning they're like having breakfast, packing up the cars, getting ready to drive home. And Lexi is just like, I don't know what to do with this, right? Like, I don't know if I should play it cool. No one is asking me any questions. I'm not really like close enough to anyone to tell them anything. And everyone in this group is so gossipy that like, what do you do? What would you do? Oh my goodness. I mean, oh, okay, okay. So in this scenario, I'm Lexi, right? Or who am I in this

scenario? You're Lexi. Okay, you're trying to decide what to do with this juicy morsel gossip you obtained. I mean, it's so hard because Lexi is so gaslit right now. And I just sort of really want to get her away from these people. That's like my first thought is I'm like, okay, girl, you're not safe. Right? Because I feel like Lexi in her gaslit state of mind is going to try and endear herself to her actual boyfriend and try and tell and then think that she's actually helping. But in actuality, the two of them already have an understanding because they're clearly sociopaths. So in my mind, I would pull out of being gaslit. Hopefully I'd be like, what do I know about the kind of people who do well in academia? Okay. So are these people I should trust? No. So I think

what I should do is I should tell my friends who are also broke and who also are ultimately going to end up becoming non academics and going into like the nonprofit world or perhaps innovating some amazing new thing that academia would have never allowed. I would have told them and been like, isn't that so wild how like those folks live? And I'm just so glad that we're out here just eating cookies and being fat and broke together because of capitalism. So Lexi comes down on the exact same point as you. She's like, you know what? I don't want to assume anything. Maybe they have some like open alliance that allows them to like sleep with whoever they want. It's not like they were like that quiet in this like circle of people. She's

like, and also everyone here is like friends. So I don't want to like, they probably already know. Yes. Right. She's like, they probably already know this. So she does what we all do and she calls her sister on the phone and she's like, you have no stake in this. I'm going to tell you everything. She tells her sister everything and her sister is like, okay, but like keep your eyes open. Like I want updates. A good sister, right? Yes. Like pay attention. So Lexi pays attention, but like nothing's happening. Right? It's like, there's a fall break, but nothing happens. There's Thanksgiving and nothing is really happening. And meanwhile, she's becoming closer to only one member of this group, Cassie. She's like, Oh, Cassie and I have a lot in common, right? We're

from the same state. We have like similar parental background. We have all our trauma is exactly the same, right? We're just like melding ourselves together. And so she's like, you know what? Okay, maybe it was just like a one time thing. And then Alicia comes in, she's like, do you want to go on a like early December trip with me, Cassie and James, just the four of us. And Lexi's like, well, where's the trip? And Alicia's like, Oh, it's like near my parents house, like we're just going to fly to Colorado and like go there. And Lexi's like, bitch, no, I don't have any money. I can't do this. She's like, I don't like, why isn't David going on this trip? Like, where is your boyfriend? And Alicia's like, Oh, he's presenting at a conference for work,

like, he'll be back in time for the holiday party. Don't worry. And Lexi's like, well, I wasn't worried, but now I have some questions, right? Like, what is going on in this trip? Should I go in order to like, suss it out? But she tells Alicia, no, I can't go. I don't have any money. I can't go on this trip. I like, just can't afford it. And so Alicia's like, well, do you want to watch pancake? How are you feeling? Oh, just like enlisting. Yeah, just enlisting her in labor. I mean, it's just like, no, no, I mean, I understand the dynamic that Lexi is in. And I just want her to like, see that this is not going to work out for her. You can't, like you just, it's like the house always wins. Just get away, continue.

I know. So, but Lexi, you know, she likes pancakes. So she's like, you know what? Pancakes really cute and like a well trained dog. So yeah, I'll watch pancake. Like you can pay me your rich people money to hang out with your dog for a week. That's fine. And Alicia's like, great. Okay, so David will be back to our apartment before I will. So you can just drop pancake off at David's house before the holiday party and I'll pay you. Lexi's like, fine, great. Love it. Then she goes and meets Cassie for a drink. And she's like, I need a debrief on what's going on on this trip. Right. So they order their drinks are sitting at the bar and Cassie is like, I have something to tell you. And Lexi's like, okay, Cassie's like, I have the biggest crush on

James. And Lexi's like, no. And Cassie is like, this trip is perfect. It's just going to be the three of us since you're not coming. Alicia has this like perfect boyfriend that she's been with forever. So this is my chance. I'm going to make my move. Like this is going to be perfect. So now, Reggie, we have returned to the same problem as before, which is do you tell her? Yeah. I mean, it's hard because I think if I were in Lexi's shoes, I would be, again, I'm still gaslit. I'm still in the situation. I'm still thinking that I can somehow make this work. And maybe these people are my friend. I'm like, no girl, don't do it. You think she's your friend, but she isn't because I have literally been in the situation where I'm like, I'm going to

disclose something and then it was completely weaponized against me ultimately. Right. That's the big fear, right? Is that you tell Cassie and then she just like turns on you. Presume, and now all of these people hate you. Yes. I mean, so I think like what's hard is Lexi's in the Kool-Aid doesn't quite know the flavor. So I think I know, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what Lex is going to do. But if I were in Lexi's shoes and I was gaslit, like I was, I would go along with it and I would tell Cassie. But now that I'm outside of it, I would be like, don't trust Cassie. Get away from these people. So yet again, you and Lexi are eye to eye and she's like, you know what? I'm not going to tell Cassie because Alicia has

offered me a lot of money to pet sit pancake and I want that money. Yeah. So I'm not going to get involved. I'm going to stay in my lane. I'm going to mind my own business. Right. Have fun on your little break. Bye. So they go off. She's got pancake. Things are going well for like several days. Before they're even back on the plane. Lexi has heard what's happened. Oh, she has heard that Alicia and James hooked up that Cassie found them, walked in on them and created a scene that she told James that she liked him, that James told her that he was in love with Alicia, that Alicia created this whole drama by being like, but we're just sleeping together. Oh, Cassie made the opposite decision. Cassie tells everyone.

She tells her friends. She tells random strangers. She's just, you know, gossiping around. She's telling everyone. By the time she even calls Lexi, Lexi is like, dude, I already know everything that happened. Wow. But Cassie does call her and she's like, she's like, here's what happened. You have to be on my team. And Lexi's like, I have the dog. I still have pancake and I'm supposed to take pancake back to David tomorrow. And then we're both supposed to go together to this holiday party with faculty. Whoa. Where we're supposed to meet you and Alicia. What do I do? Everybody knows I'm going to walk into this party with him and he's not going to know anything and all of these people around him are going to know his girlfriend is cheating on him.

And Cassie says, you tell him, you have to tell David. And this is the final time I will ask you what she should do. Oh, it's hard. Here's the thing. There's no right movement for her. Like she is in with a bunch of vipers and there's just nothing she can do. So I mean, I'm like, I don't know. At the end of the day, just do the thing that feels more cathartic and pleasurable because you fucked girl, like you're fucked, right? So I don't know. And she, she doesn't, she doesn't tell him. Lexi is like, you know, she's got a heart of gold and she's like, I'm going to mind my own damn business. I'm going to drop off this dog. I'm not going to say a word. I'll tell David, I'll see him at the party and I'll go away. Someone else will tell him.

And she's right. By the end of the holiday party, someone had told David because he and Alicia left very briskly after the faculty toast and they were not seen again. And that is where our story ends. Whoa. Alicia updated James briefly, but they parted after graduation, of course. And the only other update I got from our friend of a friend is that pancake is doing very well. What is your take on this? How do you feel? I mean, I think I've, I don't know, I feel in general, I have found again and again and again, that strategic alliances or strategic friendships are not really in line with integrity and they ultimately blow up in your face, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting to me is that she had the option, right? We kind

of played this game of like, what would you do in each of these sections? And she had the option three times to like completely blow up this friend group and just like decided not to. And I don't know that I personally have the like wherewithal to have done that, right? When you're in that kind of situation, you're just so blinded to reality. And I think when you want friends so badly, it's really easy to like not think about what, why they might be interacting with you. Yes. I mean, I absolutely like, I totally agree, but it's, I don't know. It's just like, I think about how, I mean, right, like in terms of blowing up the friend group, that's not the outcome that would have happened. I just think like, you know, there's this, there's this idea that like gossip

like something that's perhaps subjectively immoral or subjectively terrible should be able to break up, you know, any number or like should be able to disrupt something. But I'm like, yeah, but when your class standing is based on an understanding that you're like most likely doing shady things to maintain power, like avoiding taxes, all these kinds of things that are built into the socialization of like being wealthy, you're already, you've already been socialized into withstanding immoral behaviors. I guess what I'm saying is like, Lexi didn't have the power to change that friend group or blow them up or anything. All she had the power to do was to get herself out of it. Like I think no matter what she did, she would have been expunged ultimately, or she would have

stayed in a role of service and then delayed the expunging, you know, by a few years. I love what you're saying. And I completely agree with you. I just think it is like kind of a hard thing to know about yourself when you haven't learned those codes yet. Yeah. Like clearly, if she's still like, oh, I want to ingratiate myself to this group, she hasn't like fully come to terms with the way that like social class will protect itself at all costs. Yes, absolutely. I don't know that there was any situation exactly where like Lexi was going to get what she wanted out of the situation. Yeah, poor Lexi. I feel, I hope she finds some like real friends. Same. I'm just like, these are not it, girl. You need, you need someone who actually cares about you and

who like has some semblance of understanding of people's income levels. 100%. Who isn't just like, oh, haha, come to Colorado with me. Well, okay, Verdi, thank you so much. Did you, was this fun? Did you have an okay time? Yeah, it was like a great time. Thanks for listening to Normal Gossip. If you disagree with our takes or have a gossip story to share, please email us at normal gossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip. Thanks so much to Verdi Tovar for joining us. You can follow Verdi on Instagram at Verdi Tovar and make sure to check out our new book, The Body Positive Journal. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at at McKinney-Kelsey and you can follow the podcast on both at at normal gossip. This podcast was produced by

Alex Sujan Loughlin. Thank you to Projects Editor Justin Ellis and Editor-in-Chief Tom Lay and the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe to defector at defector.com. Thanks to Megan for sharing this excellent gossip story with us. I'm Kelsey McKinney and remember you did not hear this from me. Radio Topia. From PRX.