Normal Gossip - S1 Ep10: Bonus #2: Your FAQ + Some BIG Announcements!

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

Kelsey and Alex answer your most burning questions: How do we make the show? Why did we take a break? WHEN IS SEASON 2 STARTING? Plus, some big announcements! Become a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com . Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs).

Hey, quick favor. We are conducting an audience survey. We'd be really grateful if you could take just a few minutes and answer it. Please visit survey.prx.org slash gossip to take the survey today. That's survey.prx.org slash gossip. Thank you. Welcome to Alex's Scorpio Hour, where he doesn't torch the entire world. Hi, and welcome back to Normal Gossip. My name is Kelsey McKinney, and I have with me today as an extra special treat, my co-creator, Alex Sujan Loughlin, who produces this podcast. Alex, say hello to our friends of friends. Hello, friends of friends. It is me. I'm so happy that you're here and that they get to hear your voice somewhere that's not just Instagram. I think that's nice. I was having some technical difficulties, so I'm recording this using

my teeny, tiny TikTok mic, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's so small. It's like maybe an inch and a half tiny little mic. It's like a mic for Barbies. Alex and I and our editor, Justin Ellis, are the ones who read your emails and your Instagram DMs and listen to your voicemails and your voice memos and your voice DMs. We've noticed that we're getting some of the same questions just over and over and over again. You want to know how we make this podcast. You want to know how we anonymize stories, whether or not Alex and I text each other about your gossip. You want to know when we'll be back with season two, and we are going to tell you the answers to all of these questions in this episode, but not yet. First, why are you laughing? Because I don't know what's

happening. Oh yeah, I haven't include Alex in on this next part because I'm going to be a little demon. Oh boy. Alex, can you please tell the listeners what your relationship with gossip is? Oh my gosh, I'm so honored. How exciting. You know, I was going through some secrets in the Instagram the other day, and somebody said that they collect other people's secrets as a way to keep power dynamics in their favor at all times. And I really relate to that as a Scorpio. I engage in light deviousness at all times, so I'm never quite fully scheming to destroy anybody, but what I like to do is just collect factoids to keep in my pocket in case I ever need to. It hasn't happened yet, but just in case. Yeah. What's your favorite part of normal gossip so far?

My favorite part? Oh my gosh. I really love getting a gossip story in the email that's so good that I'm messaging you as I'm listening to it and being like, holy shit, wait until you get to this part. I do feel like a couple of the stories that we've already chosen for season two, I feel like have been ones that one of us has started listening to one of the eight voicemails that someone left and has stopped and been like, you need to just get in here. Let's talk about this as we go, which I find really nice. Yeah, it's delightful. There are some extreme doozies. People live some wild lives out there. They do. I think we've gotten a couple that have been just like, you can't use these, but they're just for you. I just want to share these with you,

and I just want all of you to know that Alex and I do listen to them and we do discuss them, so do not worry. Alex, would you like to hear a little gossip as a treat? Oh my gosh. Yes. Wow. Wow. I get to be a whole ass guest on this podcast. Yeah. Well, it's going to be a little shorter than a regular gossip because we have to get through all these FAQs, but I thought it would be fun. I'm ready. Okay. So today's gossip comes from my friend who got this from her friend of a friend, and it involves a very prestigious MBA program. Continue. People in MBA programs are wild. My friend said, and I quote, that this story will confirm everything you believe about MBA programs. This was difficult for me because I don't know a lot about MBA programs. Alex, what do you know?

Okay. Here's what I know. I know Patagonia Vests. Okay. I will also say that I live in a little town in Connecticut, which is what people say when they go to Yale. I go to school in Connecticut. You go to school outside of Boston? Yeah, just outside of Boston. Yeah. So I live in New Haven, which is where Yale is, and Yale has a really big business school, which means there are a lot of business school people out and about. My friends live next door to some Yale MBA people, and they are always having ragers. During the pandemic, we're having parties. Incredible. Yeah. That's my experience with business school types. Okay. Great. I don't have a lot of experience with business school types because I have tried to

cordon myself away from them in my adulthood. So to understand what was happening here, I just want everyone to know that we do our research. I DM'd with Jasper Wang, who is the businessman at Defector Media, which is the company that funds this podcast. We'll talk more about that later, but in the meantime, let's continue. Alex, okay. Our main character today is named Sarah. Okay. Sarah is single. She's in the MBA program because she wants to switch careers and she couldn't figure out how. There are so many other ways to switch careers. Okay. Sarah doesn't know them. She goes to a meet and greet because it's like, you know, welcome to the MBA program or whatever. And she does that thing where she like scans the room for people that she thinks she won't

hate. And she sees this couple that seems to be like very popular, but not in the way where like they're popular and mean, popular in that they're just like connected to everyone in the MBA program. Right. Something I've learned about MBA programs is that people are very into networking. And so she's like, you know what, even if I don't like these people, I definitely need to meet them. Okay. These people are a couple. They are engaged. Their names are Mindy and Martin. No, alliterative names. Alliterative names. I predict that they're going to be bad. I don't know. I just, I have vibes. Mindy and Martin and they're like too happy together and they're wearing like matching Patagonia vests. You're like one. The thing that you've hooked on to is the Patagonia vests. Yes,

they're all zipped up in their Patagonia vests ready to network. Okay. So Mindy is the MBA student and Martin is her fiance. Oh, so they're not both in the business school. They're not both in the business school. Okay. And kind of the dynamics of their relationship are that Mindy is like the type A breadwinner. She's like, she's the one that like, she got a job abroad. And so they lived abroad together for a couple of years. She got into this MBA program. And so they moved for her to complete this MBA program. So Martin is kind of used to like following her around. Right. And he has just landed in this new city where Mindy is in this big program. And he's like, you know, I need some friends. I got to find some friends. A thing I have just learned about

is that many MBA programs have something called a partners. Oh, yes. Okay. I know about this kind of thing because listeners may not know, but I'm actually an academic spouse at aforementioned Yale. And so I am in a Facebook group that's like partners and spouses of Yale graduate students. Wow. Because I also, you know, live in this town where I'm not really affiliated with anything. And I wanted to make friends. Have I made friends from this group? No, I haven't. But I tried. Okay. So this is relatable to you. Yeah. Super relatable. Martin is much more involved than you are. And the partners group at this university is not a Facebook group. It is like organized events, mixers, right? It is like time to network.

Jasper told me that many of these programs are left over from when MBA programs used to be almost all men and their wives would be coming with them and they would need to like find ways to meet friends. But they still exist. And Martin is very involved in it. And it has gone well for him. He has like made a lot of friends. He is like now co-chairing the partners group, right? He's like important. Yeah. So this is why like Martin and Mindy are so popular, right? It's not because Mindy is like great at getting an MBA. It's because Martin is like making friends with literally every single person in this program and every person that that person has talked to. Sarah is like, I also want to make friends. Maybe I can be friends with Martin and

Mindy. Turns out she really only wants to be friends with Martin. So she's like, great, Martin is my friend. And they fall into one of those like fast college-y friendships. Okay. Apparently something that is very common in MBA programs is going on trips. Really? Yeah. Like with your, with your like cohort? Many people view MBAs as like the main, their main value being networking and like social connection. And the fastest way they can think of to like create friends is by going on trips together, right? That never goes south as we have learned on this podcast. It's always fine. Jasper told me that there are occasionally legitimate reasons for traveling. Like maybe you would be going to learn some business thing, but that generally it's just

because people want to party, as you've already noticed. They're already taking out 150k in student loans. So to them they're like, what's 20k more in travel? Right? We might as well go on this junket around the world together. They call it a junket. No, that's just what we're calling it. Okay, got it. Okay. So last year, a group of MBA students went on a trip to Costa Rica, including Mindy and Sarah. Martin didn't go because he's not in the program. So he wasn't invited. Spouses aren't invited. Spouses were not invited. It seems suspect. Okay. So they're staying in an Airbnb, all of them. It's like really fun. You know, they're like doing whatever it is you do in Costa Rica. I don't know because I've never been there. And the first night is like a

rager. And so Sarah is really like hung over the second day. And so the second night when people start partying, she gets sick really quickly. And it's like, I'm just going to go to bed, right? Like my body is tired. So she puts herself to bed. She wakes up in the middle of the night because she's sick. And she can hear someone fucking. Do you think that she should mind her business? Or should she be nosy? I think she should be nosy, but under the guise of minding her own business. So just lay flat in the bed, like staring at the ceiling, but like listening with all of her ears. That's so specific. How many ears do you have? I mean, I have, I mean, I have two, but I'm imagining, I'm imagining like, you know, in Harry Potter,

how like the Weasley twins have those. No. Wait, you don't know about Harry Potter? I mean, I did, but continue. I know you were raised evangelical, so I'm not sure what you're. I did read them. I did read them. Okay, okay. You know, I'm from Georgia. I have a lot of friends who aren't allowed to read Harry Potter. So, so yeah, the Weasley brothers, they have one of their products in their store is like this ear thingy that like, you like, it like, it's like a stretchy ear and you like put the end of the ribbon where you want to be able to hear and then you can listen. Oh, I see. Anyway, I've spent entirely too much time on this. This is the magic version of just like leaving your phone on voicemail somewhere is what I'm

hearing. Yeah, essentially, yes. Okay, Sarah is like, you know, it's the middle of the night, the house is all dark. I can tell that the noise is coming from like the main room and I'm on the second floor. So I'm just going to like creep over toward this balcony and see what I can see. Oh, wow. And who she sees is Mindy. Who Mindy is sleeping with is another business school person who is also married. Of course, spouses aren't allowed. Spouses aren't allowed. This seems like the entire trip was planned for this kind of thing. Listen, yes, it does. I agree. Okay, so they go back, they like the trip is over. Sarah doesn't do anything. They go back and Martin texts her and it's like, Hey, because remember, she and Martin are very close friends and it's

like, Hey, do you want to get lunch this week? Oh boy. Do you go to the lunch? Yes. Yes. Okay, great. Yes. Why are you so emphatic? Because like it's more data. It's more data. I would go, I would not share anything. I would, I would evaluate. When I see Justin's making huge eyes in this chat, which listeners can't see, but when I told Justin this story, he first asked me if it was a nice lunch or if it was Chipotle. Chipotle is nice lunch. But he did believe that she had a duty to tell Martin. Okay. So you're like, go, but keep your mouth shut. Yes. Okay. Mindy is like, you know, I feel like I should tell him, but I'm not going in with any set plans. I'm just gonna like, I'm gonna go to

this lunch and we'll just, we'll see where it takes us. So she shows up to the lunch. She sits down. It is clear immediately that Martin already knows. Oh boy. Okay. He has already checked Mindy's phone. He already knows all the details. He has confronted Mindy. Mindy has immediately apologized and was like, this is the biggest mistake of my life. I got caught up in this like business school culture. I can't believe that I did this. I really regret it. I understand if you don't want to forgive me, but like it would be the greatest loss of my life if we couldn't get married. Reminder, they're engaged and supposed to get married in three months. Hmm. How did he find out? Hmm. I was told that he found out because he went through her phone.

I just, I feel like the going through the phone is not a good move. First of all, second of all, like I just don't feel like Mindy's apology has any weight if she only apologized after she got caught. Like you think she should have come home and apologized like immediately, fessed up? I don't know. I mean, that gets into more like ethical things about like, you know, I feel like there's like a debate about like, if you cheat on somebody, sometimes the more kind thing is to just not tell them. But I feel like maybe the answer here is like, maybe she should just not marry this guy. It seems as if she doesn't want to marry this guy. Okay. So you've stumbled into the next problem, which is that what Martin wants from Sarah

is not information. He doesn't want like more details. What he wants Sarah's advice on is, does Sarah believe Mindy? Does Sarah think that this apology is reputable? And should he get married? Those are huge questions to ask this person that you just met. Yes, but they're best friends now. Okay. I mean, in theory, like Sarah knows Mindy more than I know Mindy at this point, like, but I mean, yeah, my take is like, it sounds like Mindy doesn't want to get married. And like, if if trust has been lost in the relationship to the point that he felt he needed to go through her phone to begin with, and then he found something like that's that's bad on both sides. Okay. So Sarah is like, I'm single. I broke up with my boyfriend to come to

this MBA program because I wanted to fuck around. So I don't think I'm really qualified to give you advice on this. And I think that you have to make that decision for yourself. Good. Yeah. Fine. Three months later, they get married, huge wedding, big ordeal lavish, you know, we're talking like swans by sculptures big way. But then two months after they get married, Mindy comes to Martin and she's like, you know, I've been invited on another MBA trip. But this time it's just me and this one other girl. What? It's only two people? Yeah, MBA. It's an MBA trip. Okay. Do so. How do you think he should feel about this? Oh, I mean, I am shocked that they did not discuss this before becoming legally wed. Considering this was a huge sticking point

in their relationship, that they didn't have a conversation that's like, you know, maybe we don't go on these trips anymore. So considering they didn't have that conversation, like stupid, stupid decision. But yeah, I would be like, what the hell is this? What are you trying to pull? Yeah, I agree and think that that is reasonable. I think if you made quote unquote the biggest mistake of your life on a trip, you should probably not want to go on a trip again, just in general. But you know, Martin is kind of like, I don't want to be that like controlling husband, right? I don't want to like put her in this position, which in my opinion is not what's happening. But no one in this scenario asked me my opinion. So he is like, go forth on your trip

with this one other girl. What is networking when it's just two people? Great question. I have no idea. It's a very special kind of networking. It's so special. The specialist. So because the MBA program is small, and everyone is apparently being insane, there's a lot of gossiping happening in the MBA class. Within days of this trip ending, and Mindy returning, Sarah has learned that it wasn't two of them. There were actually two other men from the program who went on this trip. Oh, it's a swinger's trip. No, no. No, what had happened is they had gotten two separate AirBnbs and paired up. Oh, Lord. Okay, so Mindy went to one AirBnb, not with the girl she was quote unquote traveling with, but with one of these other two guys. Was this the guy from before? No,

it's a different guy. An important information here is that that man is also married. These people need therapy. Mindy needs therapy. She needs to investigate her desires. She needs to investigate why she has made the decisions that led her to this place. So now Mindy has had a separate affair with another business school student, and her friend who was on the trip has also had an affair with a separate business school student. Sarah knows all of this information. Before I ask you what you should do, I need you to remember that this is not just, you are now not just talking about Martin and Mindy's relationship. You are talking about five marriages because it is Martin and Mindy. It's the first guy she cheated with, the second guy she cheated

with, the friend she went on the trip with, and the guy that she slept with. So five different married people. This is ridiculous. You know, honestly, at this point, with so many people involved, that's 10 people, that's five marriages. I think actually going back to the stockpiling of secrets for your own personal use, maybe you just don't say anything and lean into the mutually assured destruction. Because like, if the point here is like, the idea is that we're all meeting in school, and then we're all going to go into the business world and be like, bullshit vest wearers, like in Silicon Valley or whatever, like to have this kind of dirt on somebody. I don't know. Sometimes I just block it out, and then it just comes

because you're right. You know, what's a stronger networking than making a friend? It's having dirt. Yes. Like that is maybe the best form of networking possible. And none of these people are above it because they're all in an MBA program. That's a great point. Would you like to know what Sarah does? Yes, I do. Well, I would love to tell you, but I think it's only fair that we answer some listener questions before we come back to this. Oh my God, this is so mean. Don't you think that's fair? Oh, I guess it's fair. Alex, I am going to read you some questions that have been submitted to us via many platforms,

and we're just going to go through them together. Does that sound good? Great. Okay. The first question is, why do you hate knitters? Okay. Wait, I want to take the time to formulate this as if it's a public apology. Okay. I need like my notes app. I know many in the knitting community have felt offended by the knitting episode. I just want you to know that I'm part of the knitting community. I am one of you, but that doesn't mean that I am immune from causing hurt. And I am listening and learning, and I hope to change my actions in the future. No, you don't. I just want to say I am wearing a vest that I knit by myself with superwash wool. So, you know, I'm not even that kind of knitter

sometimes. I'm going to take some time away. Please respect my family's privacy at this time. Peace and love. Okay. That's beautiful. Thank you for that apology. Yeah. It's as a member of the knitting community. It's good that you could be honest. It's important to be held accountable. That's so true. Okay. So next question, where did this show idea come from? Kelsey. So, I did the thing that I'm always doing that I shouldn't be doing, which is just tweeting my good ideas out into the ether. So in, I guess, probably the end of 2020, I had tweeted out like someone should simply give me a podcast called Normal Gossip where I digest Normal Gossip. And the reason I tweeted this is because someone had recently told me a really

just breathtaking piece of gossip about the place where they bartended. And I was telling everyone who I could find on the street this gossip. And so I was like, if only I could give this to the public. And then my colleagues at Defector were not mad at me, but they were like, Kelsey, what if you didn't tweet out your good ideas? And instead, we just turned them into real things. Because that's supportive colleagues. And so we did follow up question pause. What is Defector? Thank you so much for asking. So Defector is a cooperatively owned subscriber based news and culture website. So what that means in practicality is that there are like 25 of us and we all own part of the company. And so we own it, we run it, we get to write whatever

we want. And so we kind of decided, my editor, Justin Ellis, decided that one of the ways that we could evolve the company to give people more opportunities and to try new stuff and have fun was to launch podcasts. And so we started with a pilot program, and we made a very rough version of this podcast. We decided that it was good. And that's when we kind of absorbed you into our fold. Is that correct? Yeah, so I was actually a Defector subscriber from the beginning. I think when you tweeted announcing that Defector was going to be a thing you were part of, I was like, hell yeah, I'm so into this sort of like worker oriented, no bullshit media company that's like not based on like selling ads or like scaling infinitely. And also I wanted to

support your writing. And I was just I was very excited about this. So I became a subscriber, my husband became a subscriber, we're both subscribers. I just want to butt in here and say that if your husband is a Defector subscriber, and that's how you found this podcast, please also subscribe so that we can give you special things. Continue, Alex. So yeah, as a subscriber, I got an email in like January of 2021 that was like, hey, we got a bunch of podcast pilots, listen to them and give us feedback. And I was like, great. And I saw that normal gossip was one of them. And immediately was like, oh, I love this, I want this. And I actually DM'd you on Twitter and was like, I'm obsessed with this podcast idea.

But yeah, it wasn't until like a few months later that Defector was actually ready to hire somebody and I was also ready to go freelance. So it was perfect. Yeah. And so we launched, Alex came on and we launched this podcast and we launched another podcast called Name Dropping. And both were really proud of and it's very exciting. We're going into season two very soon. I will tell you how soon later on, but not right now. One question I have for you, Alex, is I feel like there's been a little bit of confusion online with who the quote unquote production company of this podcast is. Could you just clear that up? Yeah, I'll clear that up. The production company is me. It is my laptop. It is my Pro Tools subscription. Yeah, it's just me. I do the work with Kelsey and the

other hosts, Gideon Sammer, and then they send me the audio and I make a podcast. I think when people ask us like, how do we make the show, they don't really mean this part that we've explained. They mean like, how do we logistically make the show? So we should also probably tell them about that, don't you think? Yeah, it's a process. And I think like surprisingly takes more time and work than people probably realize. I mean, just in this timeline, we've said basically like the idea for this started in 2020. At the beginning of 2021, we had pilots and then we didn't launch until January of 2022. So this, wow, that's this year. Yeah, so these have been in the works for a long

time. This isn't the kind of thing where we just threw them together. So let's start with like this question of like, where do we get the gossip? I think like early on before the show launched, it was a kind of different process to how it is now. But do you want to talk about like, how we source it and like, how we anonymize it? Yeah, so before the show launched, the way that we source the gossip was by Alex, you and I just asking every single person we knew if they had any gossip and if they did, if we could have it for the show. And that did work. The way that we have a source for season two, it has been much easier in that we are sourcing directly from listeners. So I think even the last few episodes of season one, we sourced from listeners because

as the show started to come out, you all started to send in your gossip and the gossip you have is just demented and extremely good. So for example, the gossip story that we're using in this episode came from a listener who sent in, I think four voice memos and that right like right one after another. And that's where we got this story. And the way that we anonymize it, which I know is like one of the biggest questions in this show is that we don't like the goal of the show is not to hurt anyone. The goal of the show is not to like ruin anyone's life. The goal of the show is to have fun and to listen to gossip that you have no connection to that has absolutely no repercussions on your life. And so the first way that we choose the gossip is we want to make sure that those ideals

are upheld. So we want to make sure that it's fun, and that it's enjoyable, and that you can kind of go along for the ride. We want to make sure that it's not exactly clear who the bad guy is, right? Like we want to have a little fun with that. So in the story we're telling right now with Martin and Mindy, you might kind of hate Mindy already, but it's just not entirely clear who is going to end up being the problem character or who the villain is actually. And then once we have the base part of that story, the way we anonymize is we usually anonymize locations, names, the way the characters relate to each other, and like any other identifying details. So the best way to explain this is in the gossip story that I am currently in the middle of telling to Alex, we have changed the names.

We have not mentioned where in the country this MBA program is. We have changed the viewpoint that it's told through, right? So we're telling it through Sarah instead of someone else. And in most cases, we probably would have changed that it was an MBA program to something else. We would have made it, I don't know, law school maybe. But in this kind of situation in MBA programs is so common that it is like become a joke. Jasper told me that a very popular joke in his MBA program and amongst his MBA friends is that MBA stands for married but available. So and then I did some googling and it turns out that that's extremely true. And this is happening in many, many MBA programs. And so I felt that it would anonymize itself. So we kept MBA. Yeah, I would say just

to follow up on like our like standards of a gossip story, like we stay away from things that are too dark. So like there are definitely emails in our inbox that are like, you know, getting into like domestic violence, like sexual assault, stuff like that. Like that's not what we're going for here. We also don't want to reinforce stereotypes. That's like a big thing. We'll play on stereotypes, but the punchline shouldn't be like, oh, this person behaved exactly how you think they would. Right. I think the phrase that you always use for the this stage that comes after the basic anonymization is like playing telephone, right? Can you explain a little bit about like what that means? Yeah. So like when you when you play a game of telephone, you're seeing how a phrase or a

story evolves from person to person. And that that's what happens in gossip too. Like when you tell a gossip story, like some details stay really strongly. Other things get really heightened. So they become more and more intense or extreme. $100 can turn into $500 can turn into $1,000, for example. And the the heightened version of the gossip, I think like zeros in on the like emotional intensity, it's like the most intense version of a story. It's the version that gets spread around the most. And also like, you know, helpfully, it's it's like pretty far from the true story. So, you know, what we do is we try to kind of simulate a version of a telephone game, as we're anonymizing the gossip story. So we heighten the tensions, we like do what would

happen if you told this story through like 10 people and see how the story would change. Yeah. And practically, what that means is that my friends are sick of me, because I'm just forcing them to listen to these stories over and over again until I figure out which parts can be heightened. The next phases are straightforward on my end, we script, I script this so that I know the story points. We do a run through, we edit the script. And then we bring on the guest and we do we do it that way. And then Alex takes over and I don't know what happens. She doesn't move the magic. Movie magic, I just do chaos. So here are a couple more questions that are kind of tying into this question of anonymization. Do you always change people's names? And have you ever heard

from any subjects of the gossip? Yes, we always change people's names in every single instance. There's no reason not to. We have heard from I think two or three people who thought that they knew who the gossip was about or where it was about. And all of them were wrong, which is very fascinating, right? Like we got an email from someone with a knitting group in Michigan and they were like, Oh my God, is this your knitting our knitting group? And I was like, No, but what's happening in your knitting group? Like why is every knitting group in this country devolving into chaos? And I think that that is that's kind of something that we've been talking a lot about is that a lot of these stories are they're not universal in that they're happening to everyone,

but the beats are universal, right? That like we can change the name and the career and the setting of these stories and they are true because what's true about the gossip isn't the details. It's the the dynamics of the people involved. So for example, we get a lot of questions about like, did you find the running influencers Instagram account? How did you know this specific detail? Can I see a photo of the birdland? And the answer to all of that is we cannot answer those questions and we won't because we want to protect the anonymity of the people who are sending in these stories. And also because we want you to keep sending us stories. And the best way to do that is to make sure that you know that we're anonymizing them. Something also you should know is that like

if you send in a story, first off, your story is always going to be safe with us. We're like, never going to share anything that's not anonymized from our inboxes. But the other thing is that if we end up using your story from that you like send us an email, you will recognize it. But it will be changed enough that like listeners won't be able to figure out who it's about. That's like the most important thing. And we're usually in, in every instance, we're in contact with the people who send in these stories, right? Asking follow up questions, asking like, I can think of in particular, the reason we got that bird lamp anecdote is because I asked the person, the person who had sent in that story to us had said that all of these girls

suck. And I was like, what kind of sucks? That's not enough detail for me. Like I need to know what the dynamics are that make these girls annoying or difficult to be around. And then they told us the story about the bird lamp. And like that is kind of the dynamic of how we're fleshing these out. So it's not that we're contacting the people who the stories are about because we don't care about their opinion. We're asking for the details around the story from the people who have given it to us. Yeah. So this next question, how do you decide who guest stars and what story they hear? Yeah. So this is going to be a little bit different for season two in that in season one, we didn't have a podcast yet. And so we were just asking people as a favor,

essentially to come on, which is why most of the people in the first season are people that one of us has a direct connection to is because we knew we could call in a favor. Because the podcast has done well in season two, more people are willing to come on, which makes it easier because people know what we're doing. We're not asking them to come onto a podcast that doesn't exist, right? It's really, really hard to be like, hello, I'm a producer for a podcast you don't know from a website you haven't heard of. Please come on and gossip with us. Like, we got a lot of nos for a season. Yeah, we did. And the way that we decide like what story those guests hear is we try to find a connection between that person and the stories that we have, right? So for example,

we told Josh Gondelman the story about the dog because I know that Josh is obsessed with his dog Bizzy. I chose this story for Alex because I knew that her partner was in a graduate program, right? So you try to find a little bit of a connection there. A question that is maybe the most popular question we've got after winter season two coming is why are there breaks? Why did we stop season one? Why aren't we simply producing a gossip episode every single day? Why can't you come to my house and tell me a gossip story every hour? Alex, will you tell the listeners a little bit about like our philosophy of work and how we kind of view these making these into seasons instead of just a weekly constant deluge of gossip? Yeah, so I have produced many podcasts.

And I've produced sort of nonstop weekly shows and I've also produced seasonal shows. And I think that being on a seasonal schedule where you produce a set number of episodes and then you get to take a break and then you get to produce another set of episodes and then take a break is a really, really healthy model to have for a podcast, especially one that takes a lot of work to produce like normal gossip. I think that having breaks is a really crucial time for the team to reevaluate what we're doing, to revamp like how we produce the show, to like ask questions about how we could make it better. And it helps to prevent burnout, obviously, which is like one of our top priorities for everybody on the team. And the other thing is like, I feel like it's important to reiterate

like how much work goes into producing each episode because, you know, it sounds really light and easy. It's sort of a conversation between two people. It's not like an episode of This American Life. That's like really intense production with like 20 people on it. Well, I'm hearing you don't think we're as good as This American Life. Well, you know, it's weird because This American Life is a weekly show. So like... Yeah, they're exhausted, I'm sure. No, they're exhausted, but they have a whole team and they also do reruns like pretty regularly. Anyway, this is all to say that like when there is a show that like sounds like it has a lighter lift of production, a lighter touch, there's this assumption that less work goes

into producing it. And that's just not true. Each episode takes about eight weeks to produce, like from very beginning to publishing. And that's just that's how much work it takes to make the show. And yeah, so we need breaks. And if it sounds easier than that, then that's really just a compliment to us because we want it to sound easy. We want this to be something fun that you can listen to and for it to sound like that and for the stories to be good and for them to be things that you can listen to more than once without wanting to die, we need the time to make sure that they are fully formed. Okay, so now that everybody's on the same page, about what it takes to make an episode, how can listeners help this podcast?

Oh my God, Alex, do you think that I should tell them our big news? We have such big news. Oh my God, we're so excited, but we're also terrified. Wow. Isn't that nice? The big news that we have is that in addition to the ads that you've heard in last episode and this episode, we are launching a brand new way that you can support us and we're going to do that directly. So instead of going through some kind of system that would take a cut, all of that money will go directly to us and helping us produce more podcasts in the future. Okay, so what is the new process?

Thank you so much for asking. The way that you can support normal gossip directly is by going to supportnormalgossip.com. Wow. Amazing, sitting on those domain names. Thank you so much. I got it myself. If you go to supportnormalgossip.com, you will see that there are two levels of subscription and you can support us that way. Should I tell them what the two tiers of subscription are? What do you think? Yes, I think the friends and friends of friends want to know. Oh my God. Okay, so we've kind of set up the subscriptions in two tiers

and then based on which tier you're in, you get different treats. So every subscriber will get an exclusive extra subscriber episode each month. Wow. It's so exciting and there's something very special about these subscriber episodes, which is that there is actually going to be a subscriber as a guest on these episodes. And these episodes are exclusive only available to subscribers and we will get to how you can be a guest in a minute. Yeah, so the first year is at five bucks a month and that will get you these subscriber episodes, all of them. It will also get you commenting privileges on normal gossip posts

on defector.com and access to 10 extra defector blogs a month and that is the friend of a friend level. If you want to join our friend level, things get spicy, Alex. So spicy. So in addition to getting full defector subscription with unlimited access to blogs, commenting privileges, live staff Q&As and a daily defector newsletter, you also get to listen to this extra subscriber episode each month. You also get entered into a pool to have your name drawn to be the guest on the monthly subscriber episode. Oh, shit. Alex, what does this mean exactly? Be the guest on the subscriber episode. This means that you get to join us for a special taping of normal gossip where you can talk to Kelsey. Kelsey can ask you what your relationship with gossip is

and then you can share a little gossip story with her and with all of our subscribers. Wow, what a treat for me. What else do the friends get? Because that's not all. It's really not all. The list is just immense. You will also get 15% off normal gossip merch. We're hearing merch. Everyone loves merch. You will get discounts to normal gossip live events. Live events. Live events. Wow. But the real just cherry on top to me of the friend level is that we've decided that if you subscribe at the friend level, we're going to add you to our close friend circle on Instagram and we'll be posting things there like behind the scenes content, extra little gossip morsels, doing special polls, all of that kind of stuff. It's going to be,

I think, probably a shit show in the close friend circle, but you probably don't want to miss it. I am a supporter of a couple of podcasts that I really love through other fundraising sites, supporting sites. I just feel really thankful that normal gossip is a show that's produced in partnership with a company like Defector that already places such a premium on its audience supporting the work of the people at the site. Yeah. The ideals of this site have always been about making stuff that people like, which seems really simple, but it's just not really the goal of most media companies in general. I think that this podcast is a really good example of that. I feel like we have had a lot of creative

control over what we want to do because Defector is our parent company. I think I hope that if normal gossip does well enough, we'll be able to make more podcasts in the future that will be really exciting and fun. Yeah. Everybody is being treated very ethically in this situation, which is really the cherry on top. Alex, can you remind our friends and friends of friends where they can go to get access? Go to this nifty URL that Kelsey has secured and redirected, supportnormalgossip.com. Women in STEM. That's me redirecting the normal gossip URL. Women in STEM. Okay. All right. So we've made it through almost all of our listener questions. Alex, would you like to hear the end of your gossip story from earlier?

I really, really would. I'm dying to know how the sense. Okay. Can you recap what has happened? Oh, God. Okay. This is like a mini game of telephone. So Sarah has joined an MBA program. She meets Mindy and Mark, who are an it couple. Mindy is part of the MBA. No. Yeah. Mindy's part of the MBA program. Mark is an MBA spouse. Mindy cheats on Mark on a stupid MBA trip. Mark forgives her, marries her. Uh, that she does it again. And now we have five couples who are ensnared in this infidelity MBA drama. Okay. So did you hear what just happened? No. She switched Martin and Mark. What? There, there were two different people? No, his name was Martin. His name is Martin.

The first time I told you the story. Yes. Oh my God. See, yeah, that's, that's, that's telephone. But otherwise that was basically correct. Wow. Okay. So now we have a situation where Sarah does not know what Martin knows and cannot decide what to do. Should she seek him out? Should she wait for him to contact her? What's your, what's your move here? I feel like just for the sake of chaos, and because I'm not a person who has to live in this story or live with the consequences, I would say I would seek him out without the explicit plan to tell him, but just to see how things are going. Okay. So she seeks him out. You have hit the nail on the head and Martin tells her that he has yet again checked Mindy's phone.

And Mindy has yet again failed to cover her tracks in even a basic form. And so he knows. Wow. And what he wants to know from Sarah is what he should do. This man is dumb. This man is stupid. He, he should never have married this woman. He is in a bad situation. I know he probably feels a little disenfranchised because he's in a situation where he has to follow her and she's more successful, but he needs to stand on his own two feet and walk away. Drag him. So you would tell him just like you need to walk away? Yes. I think there is a version of this where Martin could be like, you know what, I'm just going to wipe my hands and get out scot-free, right? I'm going to,

I'm going to get a divorce. I'm going to leave. Yeah. I just, I'm going to do my own life. That is not what Martin does. Oh boy. Martin is like, I have created this whole community. I have made all of these friends. Oh no. I am co-chair of the partners group of the MBA program. Oh, not the co-chair. And I will not be letting this slip. Oh no. Okay. All of my friends are in this business school or they are people in this business school's spouses. So I am not running away. He's vengeful. You know, if Mindy is going to treat this, treat me this way, then they need to know what kind of person she is. Oh boy. Okay. And what he does is he personally calls a dozen of them in the business school and tells them everything. Okay. Does not everybody know already? I'm under

the assumption that everybody knew. So most people would know about the first trip, but not because there were a lot of people that were there, but not about the second trip. Oh my goodness. And what he does is he doesn't necessarily tell people who are in the MBA program. He is also telling spouses. Oh, that's not good. Yeah. So the conclusion of our story, yeah, he truly went with the nuclear option. Yeah. And the conclusion of our story is that now five married couples in this MBA program are getting divorces. Wow. You know, we don't have to include this in the episode, but Dana is working on this, this research project about norm diffusion and the way norms are adopted among countries. And what he has found, his theory is that it's not

the big countries in the middle that affect whether norms are adopted. It's about all of the countries on the periphery. And it's like, if like one or two starts adopting, they're more likely to spread around and then inward. And what I see here is the gossip, the like volatility of the gossip being spread among the spouses and all the partners around the periphery and then going inward to ruin the lives of the MBA students. Yeah. To ruin, just like to destroy the culture. It probably isn't destroyed. It's probably alive and well, but who do you, who do you think the villain of this episode was? Oh, my God. So let me think about this. I think that the villain of this episode is the tyranny of marriage. Look, we're all happily married here, but like this

feeling that you have to be married to be happy, I think is, I think is the villain here. I mean, that does seem, I personally was going to say that the villain was MBA programs, but sure, the tyranny of marriage, let's go with that. I mean, second place is definitely like MBA programs and the culture that they foster, but I think they are related for sure. This like feeling that you have to be like monogamously and heterosexually partnered. Welcome to Alex's Scorpio Hour, Alex, before we go, do you want to do the last two listener questions that are everyone's biggest questions? Yes. The first question we're getting is how many new episodes can we expect in season two? Eight. Eight episodes. We are doing, yeah, same as season one, we're doing eight regular episodes

and then two bonus episodes. So I guess like 10, like in quotes. Quote unquote, 10 episodes, eight structured ones. Exactly. And then the big question, when are you coming back with new episodes? Season two will premiere on May 18th. So we'll see you in a couple weeks. Go dogs. Thank you so much for listening to Normal Gossip. As we've just announced, if you love this podcast and want to support us, please subscribe to become a friend or a friend of a friend at support normal gossip.com. If you have a gossip story to share with us, you can email us at normal gossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip. But as always, please

remember the voicemail box will cut you off after three minutes. So just keep calling. You can follow me on all social media at at McKinney Kelsey and you can follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter at at normal gossip. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Lothlin. Defectors Projects editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Lei. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. And thank you so much to REL for sharing this gossip story with us. I'm Kelsey McKinney and remember you didn't hear this from me. Thank you so much for listening to normal gossip. If you have a gossip story, Jesus. Okay. Water first. Deep breath. Calm down.