Normal Gossip - S1 Ep2: Dickmatized with Sam Sanders

Episode Date: January 12, 2022

Sam Sanders, Correspondent and host of NPR's "It's Been a Minute," joins us for our second episode! Join us as we hear a story good enough that it forced Sam to reveal that, "the first rule of fight club is never date a tall, cute bartender." Check outSam Sanders' "It's Been a Minute" here, and follow him on social media @samsanders. Episode transcript available here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Subscribe to Defector Media and get your first month for 99 cents at defector.com/normalgossip. 

Hey, Kelsey McKinney here. I'm excited to share that our fellow radio-topia show, The Stoop, is back with a new season. The Stoop is an award-winning podcast that tells stories from across the Black diaspora. Journalists Lila Day and Hana Baba dig deep into Black life through reporting, conversations, and personal storytelling to talk about things

that aren't always shared in the open. I can't wait for their takes on the word auntie or being called out for not being able to speak the languages of your culture. In season nine, there's also a very intimate conversation with a mom and daughter about succession planning. They get into Black psychedelic culture and so much more. The Stoop, it's where you let your guard down

and just get real. Every other Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts and follow them on Instagram at atthestooppodcast. If it looks like a fuck boy, talks like a fuck boy, smells like a fuck boy, fucks like a fuck boy. He might just be a fuck boy and maybe you should run. Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney.

In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today we have Sam Sanders. Sam is a correspondent and host of It's Been a Minute for NPR. Tell me, Sam, what is your relationship with gossip? I love it.

I mean, I grew up a church kid, so gossip was like next to Bible. You know, I think that, like, a lot of people shit on gossip for a few reasons, but I think that in actuality, it serves a few distinct purposes that are necessary in functioning societies. Particularly the smaller the group,

you have to have a certain set of norms that are followed for the group to get along. And I find that what gossip does is that it is a check on making sure that those norms are not being followed. Like, in many societies, if partners are always cheating all the time, it's bruised with cultural and social cohesion.

And so when people gossip about who might be cheating, yes, they're gossiping, but also in this weird way, they are trying to maintain some sense of social order. Right? Right, yeah. And so I think that, like, gossip can go too far sometimes.

It can be mean, especially to women, and it can be a little bit of a shame because it can go too far sometimes. It can be mean, especially to women and young women. But I think at its core, our human desire to gossip is our human desire to keep tabs on people in society and make sure things run smoothly.

Yeah. I also think that the other problem with gossip, not a benefit, is that gossip is usually hurting women and not men, for whatever reason, you know? And that's a problem. But I will say, one of the weird benefits of gossip

it is a way for the powerless to have power. When I think of the people that I go to for gossip the most, it's the folks that are lowest in the social order, you know, the lowest in the chain. They have the greatest stories to tell, and they can spin shade on everybody. And they have to use that as their power because they don't have the power that the executive has

or that the rich man has. Gossip is their power. So I don't know. I fundamentally believe that there is a space and a place for gossip in our society. And if there wasn't, it wouldn't still be with us. Everybody fucking gossips. My sister is an eyelash extensionist.

And so because that's like, yeah, she has all of these like super rich, you know, Dallas women on her table all the time. And she's just like calling me constantly and being like, you will not believe the things that I've heard. So you've said like what you think about gossip, but do you consider yourself a gossip?

Oh my God, yeah. Oh yeah, especially at work, especially during the pandemic, when you can't see people in person, there's a whole gossip chain. And right now, a lot of the gossip chains in my work life, we are, you know, organizing to fight the man. A lot of the gossip chain is like,

how much do you make and know how much do you make? How much vacation time do you have? What's your contract look like? What are your benefits looking like? We should ask for more. That's good gossip, right? Like that's good gossip. So I do that a lot.

I gossip a lot with folks in the podcast industry to like read the tea leaves and see where things are going, but I'm always gossiping. I'm always gossiping. Oh my God. And like I have some friends where like, my greetings to them is, hey, give me some gossip. I think I'm that friend for a lot of people.

And I'm curious what it is about the friends that you're like, oh, they definitely have good gossip. Like why do you assume that they're a fount of gossip? This is just for my own knowledge, really. Their previous stories have checked out. You know, there's some folks that give you gossip and you go to verify and you cannot verify that shit. I have one or two really good gossip friends

where everything they tell me, I'll find out at some point, it is exactly true. So their track record lets me know. I also think that like the more charming you are, the better of a gossip you are, because you can just butter someone up and get them to tell you shit. And I think of the folks that I rely

on the most for work gossip right now, they were the colleagues that could seamlessly sidle up to anyone's desk and just start a conversation. Those kind of coworkers, they get the gossip. Your job is a lot of interviewing. Do you find yourself like rooting for gossip at all? Yes, I always root for it. I always want to know more.

I always think it's, yeah, it is, I celebrate it. I love shows that revolve around gossip. Like when I think about the kind of television that I'm super into, it is like, you know, rich white women with no actual problems behaving badly and gossiping. Give me that shit. Can you give me an example?

Oh gosh, oh gosh, whenever I watch housewife shit. Oh yeah, okay. Half of the prestige dramas with like middle-aged or older white women on HBO and other shits. Yeah, it's like if Nicole Kidman is in it, you know, for sure, like. Exactly, there's gonna be some gossip going on and like, sign me up, sign me up.

It's just, it's juicy. We love a little drama. Well, and like, this is the thing that I realized over the course of my career, like everything gossips and everyone gossips and all things are actually gossip. Like when I covered politics, a lot of those, you know, stories full of unnamed sources, that's just gossip, right?

And like, we act like it's not gossip because it's about politicians, but that's gossip. Journalism really, like nobody wants to say this, but a lot of like journalism is really just like confirming gossip. Oh yeah. Well, and like, I remember it was especially crazy at the start of the Trump administration.

Remember there was that long New York Times article I sure do. All about how Donald Trump wore a robe around the White House all the time, but also couldn't find the light switches. But it was a bunch of unnamed sources talking about how Donald Trump couldn't find the light switches and got lost in the White House.

It was on the front page of the Times. Six journalists wrote it, but I was like, this is gossip, this is a gossip piece. Yeah, it's funny because like, I think we as a society want to create like a really firm line between like what we consider quote unquote, gossip, which is like who's sleeping with who and like what girls friends are doing

and that kind of political reporting, but you're right, it is not, there's no difference really. There's no fucking difference. The only like, the only thing that's like, certifiably not ever always gossip are like numbers. The weather is not gossip. The stock market is not gossip. Everything else is gossip.

The stock market though is controlled by gossip, really. True. Do you think about it? Very true. That's true. Okay, well, let's do it. You want to hear some gossip? I want to hear some fucking gossip.

All right, great. So today's gossip is brought to us by a friend of a friend as always and it is about this girl named Kat. She lives in a big city, non-coastal. She works in like, she works tech adjacent, but she's not like a coder. She's like a brand manager.

For one of those startups that's like mostly branding, you know, like mattresses where it's like, all these mattresses are exactly the same, but it's the same material. But this one's called avocado. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Kat, you know, is working for avocado. She's like having a great time,

but she's doing that thing that a lot of people do in their mid to late 20s where they just, they live at work and all they do is work. They don't know how to do anything else. And so her friends kind of staged an intervention in like, you know, late 2019 and they were like, Kat, my dude, you need to start dating. Like you need to do something

that is not just like sitting at your computer and working. Yeah. So Kat goes on Tinder as one is want to do and she meets this guy named Joel. And she really likes him. It's great. He's three years older. He's a bartender.

He's like tall and cute. He has that like, you know, but like- Stop, stop, stop. Tall, cute bartender. That is called emotional herpes. He's going to affect you. It ain't going well, girl. That will linger.

I like that. Like already you've turned on this guy. His name's Joel. You're already like absolutely not. Tall, cute bartender, he's a fuck boy. Get ready to raise a couple more because he's the type of guy that Kat's really attracted to, which is the type of guy who's like hot,

you know, like hasn't showered in four days kind of way. Yeah. Because he hasn't showered. Uh-huh. And has like a whole sleeve of like full color tattoos and it's like, you know, like campaigned for Bernie, right? Like one of these guys,

he's like a little judgy about other people's choices, but like also he's really hot. Yeah. He wants to explain Radiohead to you on the first date, doesn't he? Yes, exactly. So, but Kat likes this. She's like, you know what?

I don't know who Radiohead is. This is great for me. I'm learning all sorts of shit. And you know, there's someone for everyone, so sure. But Joel lives on the other side of this huge metropolitan area. And you're, are you from Houston? San Antonio.

But I know she's, I actually lived in Houston for a year growing up and that city is just one big parking lot with a series of highways laid over it. And San Antonio, you know, has the same problem, right? Where it's like, you have a loop and you have I-35 and all of them are just constantly full of traffic. You can't get anywhere.

Yeah. And because Kat like lives near the cool part of town, which is also to say the like cheap part of town full of lead paint, Joel comes and stays with her a lot. He lives on the other side of this area with a bunch of roommates. And so Kat's like, you know what? It's just like way easier if you come to my house.

I don't want to go to your house. But what she learns through this is that he's like- Homeless? No. Cause I've heard some plot lines where like, you meet the hot guy, but you never go to his place. And it turns out he's a couch surfer and you are his home now.

Oh yeah. Oh my God. I wish that was where this was going. No. So he's sleeping because he like clearly has a house, right? He's always talking about his roommates, whatever. But he's like coming over and he's doing that thing that like this type of guy does where he like

is kind of judgmental of the life decisions that you've made, right? Like he shows up and there's a bunch of Amazon packages for her and he like is very, you know, kind of explains to her how Amazon is bad and how she like shouldn't be using it. Which, you know, is not an awful point. But also you're staying there for free, Joel bro.

Exactly. But Kat, you know, she like, she really likes this guy and she's like, you know what? He's got a point. I probably should be shopping local. Like, I'll quit. I'll just quit Amazon cold turkey, no problem. Like he's, the thing is he's being annoying,

but he also is right. Okay. So she, things are going fine. They're seeing each other like, you know, twice, three times a week. And then at the three month mark, things start to change because the pandemic hits. And suddenly Kat is like really worried about Joel, right?

She's like, he's a bartender and we live in a state that like has one of those governors that's just, you know, not doing any restrictions. And this is like very concerning to me. And she talks to Joel and Joel's like, yeah, this is a really big problem. I haven't, I know they're going to lift the like very basic bad restrictions we had for like a second,

very soon. And I'm going to have to quit my job because my roommates are like really cautious about the pandemic and they also have preexisting conditions. So like, I can't be going into a bar full of people before the vaccine exists. Fine. So he quits his job.

Kat's like, you know, I'm really worried about him. She's talking to her friends. She's like, this is so weird. Like, how is he going to afford rent? How is he going to get healthcare? Like, how is he going to do all of these things? And also she has more time than she's ever had because suddenly she can't, you know,

as we all were in June of 2020, you can't like, you can't go anywhere. You can't go anywhere. And it's like, you can meet your friends in the park, but you can only do that so many times. And so she's like, this is so weird because I'm really worried about him and he's just like not freaking out at all.

Like, he seems fine. Hmm. He must have some secret source of income. So she's like, this is so weird. But you know, Kat is like, she really just believes the best in this guy. She's one of those. And one day in June, she gets a call from him

and he's freaking out. And he's like, I just don't know what to do. Everything is crumbling. I don't know where I'm going to live. Can you come over? Has she been there before? The house with the roommates? She's never been to his house.

Oh. So she's like, oh, that's weird. I didn't even realize I hadn't been over there because he talks about it so much. So she's like, can you send me the address? Mm-hmm. So he sends her the address and she's like, huh. This is close to a really nice neighborhood.

Like it's close to downtown. Like big porches. It's pretty new. I knew we had some other source of income. Mm-hmm. And she's like, that's weird. But she's like, I don't go there that often. Like maybe there's some like nearby apartments, right?

She's trying to like help him out. So she drives pretty far from where she lives. Like, you know, sits in traffic, all this stuff to go see him. And this neighborhood is like, it's not gated, but it's like really close. It's not like scary, but there are tons of cul-de-sacs. And you know, like those signs that are like for HOAs and stuff. People like peeking out of the blinds.

And she's like, I don't love this, but okay. She turns, she turns again. She pulls into the driveway. And in front of her is one of those like, 3,000 square foot like houses with those big flat stones with a turret, right? Like that kind of house. And she's like, you know, he must have sent me the wrong address.

Like this cannot be right. So what should she do? She's in her car. She's sitting in front of this house. She's like, I really don't think this is right. I mean, she should do what all millennials do when they go to someone's house. Never ring the doorbell, text a call while on the street.

Exactly. So she calls and she's like, I don't know if I'm here. Like I went to the address you sent me, but it's the right house, right? Out he comes through this like double door. His eyes are red. He's like, yes, come in, blah, blah, blah.

And she goes in and it's beautiful, but it's beautiful in like the way that rich kids, we grew up with parents house are beautiful, right? Like it's, it's like, it's dated. Yeah, there's like a chandelier in the entryway. You know, there's like that like spiral staircase where people would like stand for prom photos. Does he live at his parents house still?

Please wait. And she's so suspicious. You know, she's like, okay, this really looks like someone's parents house. Yeah. And so she's like, can I have a house tour? You know, can you show me around? Also, why doesn't she just ask whose house is this?

I don't, I don't know. This I can't tell you. Okay, okay. He gives her the house tour and it's like even bigger than she suspected. You know, there's like one of those media rooms with the big chairs and like the kitchen has one of those sinks that's like, there's one on the counter

and then there's also a little one on the island. Oh my God, yeah. There's like a pool that's infinite, whatever. They're turning the corner. They like, there's all of these doors, right? And she's like, what's in there? What's in there? What's in there?

And he's telling her and she, they pass the door near the front and she's like, what's in that door? And he's like, oh, it's just a closet. She's like, okay, fine. He's like, let's go up to my room. I like want to talk about this. And so she goes up to his room

and as you have already quickly guessed, this does not look like the room of an adult. It's a kid's room. It's a kid's room. It's like- Oh, this man has a problem. It's like, you know, basketball trophies and like there's a four poster bed

that like probably a parent picked out. Oh no. And she's like, you know, this poor girl, she's like doing everything to try and like solve this for herself. So she's like looking around, you know, she's like, maybe there's like a suitcase or something. Like maybe there's some proof that he doesn't live here.

Maybe he's just nostalgic, right? Like he had told her that his mother was dead on one of their early dates. So she's like, you know, maybe he's just kept this room exactly the way it was, like to remember. She sits on the edge of the bed and she's like, you know, I don't really have time to ask him any of these questions

because he's having a full breakdown. Like this guy who I've never seen cry is now crying. She's like, what the fuck? Joel is like really upset. And she's like, what, what's going on? Like I want to ask you about this room, but instead we will like deal with this. And she's like, what's happening?

And he's like, my father has told me that he has a girlfriend. And the girlfriend's kicking him out. Right. So cats like, okay, I don't really understand why this is a big deal. Like people are allowed to have girlfriends. So like she's like, I'm going to need like some more information here.

And as he starts talking, you know, this kind of man who is like obsessed with their father and he's like, my dad is perfect. Like he made all this money in early computers in the 80s. And now he's in his 70s. Now he admits this is his house, right? Cats like, I have a lot of questions about that, but he, you know, Joel keeps going.

And she's like, I just don't, she's like, what's the problem here? And Joel's like, well, she's my age. I went to high school with her. My dad's girlfriend is like, she dated my friend. Oh no. And cats like, you know, this is like a little weird, but I don't, she's like,

I also don't really think this is a real problem. Like you're 30, your friends are 30. Like if- Yeah, it's allowed. Yeah. If this 30 year old wants to date someone who's 70, she's allowed to, right? Like there's no, there's nothing technically wrong with that. And so she's like, this is so weird. But she's like, you know, I have a lot of questions,

but I really want to support my boyfriend. So she's like, it's all going to be fine. You don't need to worry about this. Like you're going to be fine. And so they like are together for a little while. And later when she leaves, she like hears her, hears his dad's voice, right? Like downstairs and on the way out,

Joel's like, oh, just meet him, right? Like meet him on the way out. And so she like meets him and he's like lovely and charming and like also very attractive. And she's like, fine, okay. But as she's leaving, she like, you know, she goes out the front door that she came in and she goes back to her car.

And she notices that like the door that he said was like, just a closet has a window. Like there's a window outside the house. And she's like, that's weird. And so she's like, you know, things are a little, like she gets in her car and she's like, okay, I don't, I really don't know what to do with this. What happened there? Yeah.

Yes. So now we come back here and I ask you how you're feeling and what she should do. I think she should ask that man every question she has to his face. It seems like she has a lot of reservations and questions, but she's just not asking them. But Sam, that requires you to have like a lot of bravery. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, she's obviously digmatized. He's put something on her where she just doesn't want to see the forest for that tree. Digmatized. But yeah, if I were her and I'm not, cause the first rule of Fight Club is never to get a tall cute bartender. But if I were her, I would just say,

why are you still living at home? What's the story with this girlfriend? What's the deal with your dad? Show me every room with his house, open every door. I'm confused. I have questions. I want her to do that. I mean, yeah, that seems like the right thing to do.

That is not what cat does. Cat is like, well, you know, there's gotta be like a logical explanation. I like things are really picking up at work. I'm being forced to like launch a TikTok for my terrible avocado mattress brand. I cannot like think about this right now. Yeah.

But still, you know, she's like, things are starting to pop up in her brain, right? She's like, that full sleeve of tattoos had to be expensive. Yeah, yeah. She's like, he's always wearing like clean Nike's. Something's up. She started to be like, wait, he has a good haircut, right? Like these things that like she probably

should have noticed earlier, but like didn't. So she's like, okay, maybe he's being supported by his family, maybe he lives at home. Is that a deal breaker? Could be. It could be. But she's like, you know, I don't have all the information yet and I don't, I'm not ready to ask for it

because I have to launch this stupid TikTok for my brand. So instead of doing that, I'm gonna like work. Yeah. And she sees him a couple of times, but like not for a long period of time. And three weeks later, he calls her again and he's like, you've got to come over. My dad's not home and something bad has happened.

Cat, you know, is a little gym from heaven. Cat, you know, is a little gym from heaven. She's an angel and she's like, you know, okay, I'll be right over. So she like takes her meeting in the car. She like drives over and she gets there. And this time she's less hesitant, right? She knows, she knows he lives there.

So she like gets out of her car and she walks up to the front door and sitting on the porch of the front door is an Amazon package. And she's like, okay, I'll be right over. So she's like, okay, I'll be right over. So she's like, okay, I'll be right over. And she's like, I thought he hated Amazon.

Does she shake it? Shake the package? Yeah, yeah. So she shakes it and she's like, it doesn't really sound like anything cool, right? Like it sounds like a book or something. And she's like, huh. So she rings the doorbell, he like comes down

and she's like, hey, I like found this package on the porch for you. And he's like, oh, thanks so much. And he opens the door to his left and he tosses the package in there. This is the door that had the window. This is the door at the window. And in that room are just dozens of unopened packages.

He's smuggling something. And she's like, what's in there? No, he's not smuggling anything. This is just where they keep deliveries in this house. Wow, they get that much shit. They get so much shit delivered that they have this whole little separate room to put boxes that they just like

haven't had time to open yet. And Kat's like, what? What the fuck? And he was rathin' me for having Amazon packages, fuck that guy. Exactly. The fact that she's still engaging with this door. Oh my God.

I know. But she, you know, she's in love. Like you said, she's stigmatized and she just can't. She's like, this is a problem that we will come back to later. And she gets upstairs and Joel is like, my dad's girlfriend is pregnant. And she's like, okay, now I'm like-

What's the problem there? That's allowed. Like, why do I need to know about this? Exactly. She's like, you made me drive all the way over here in the middle of the day for something that like adults are allowed to do. Did he get the girlfriend pregnant?

No. So she's like, I don't understand. Like what are you talking about? She's like, why are you so upset? And you know, he's doing that rambly thing where he is like, well, like my dad's love, right? Like I'm my dad's only son, blah, blah, blah, the inheritance, dah, dah, dah, dah.

He's like going on and on. She's like, I just really don't get this. And he's like, you know what? On top of that, what is my mother gonna say? Why is he concerned? He's 30 years old. They're grown. And yes, but Kat's also like,

you told me your mother was dead. Oh shit. Oh, uh-oh. What does he say he been? Oh my God. He's like, what? And she's like, yeah, like when we went on an early date, like you told me that your mother was dead.

And he was like, no, she's not dead. She just, I said that she like was out of the picture. Like he used one of those phrases that like implied. And she was like, no, I'm pretty sure you told me she was dead. And he was like, no, she's not dead. She just travels for work a lot. Like she'll be home from this business trip in a couple of weeks,

which is why this is such a concern. Wow. And Kat is like, I gotta get out of here. Yeah. Like she's like, this is, something is going on. And I don't like it. And as she's like trying to figure out how to like worm her way out of this situation,

she hears the front door open and in, she can hear, like it's echoing up through the atrium that the dad and the girlfriend are here. Okay. And she's like, shit. Although what does she have to be embarrassed of? Well, she's nothing to be embarrassed of. She just wants to get out of the house.

Yeah. Right. She's like, how do I get out of here? And she's like, and downstairs, she's like hearing the dad call from the atrium for Joel. Like, oh, I need to talk to you. Like, can you come down? So she's like, what should I like, should I stay in this room?

Like what? Yeah, what do I do? What's your move here? What do you think? I think, I mean, me, but I'm just like, that dude, I would stomp down those stairs very loudly, like that, and say, hi, I'm Joel's girlfriend. It's so nice to meet you.

I've heard all about you. Can't wait to get to know y'all better. That would be me. And then you would leave or you would stay? I would stay and see what they said for a few minutes and just ask really probing questions right to their fucking faces. Mm-hmm.

I'd be like, Joel said this about y'all guys, and just see what they say. So you and Kat are basically aligned at this point because Kat is like, I feel like I'm being a little gaslit by this guy. I'm confused about what's happening here. If you're going downstairs, I'm not gonna hide in your childhood bedroom

like some crush. I'm going downstairs with you. So she goes downstairs and the girlfriend is not like very leap pregnant. She's like eight months pregnant. Okay, okay. And as she's like, Kat's asking questions, right? She's like trying to figure it out.

And as they're asking like more, as like the questions are coming out and they're having this conversation, she learns that like the dad is like gonna move out. He's gonna move in with this girlfriend. So then what happens to the big house? And he's planning to sell the big house. So Joel is like clearly freaking out.

And Kat is like, you know what? Things have gotten to the point in this conversation that this does not seem like my problem. She's like, I'm leaving. I don't think I need to be a part of this anymore. So she's like, as you said, she's like, it was so nice to meet y'all. Joel, see you later.

And she walks out the front door and she's like digging through her little like tote bag. She's in the driveway digging into the tote bag, trying to find her keys. She can't find them, she can't find them. She like puts a tote bag down on the ground to dig through it. And as she's doing this,

you can, you know, when like headlights turn into a driveway and you can like kind of feel it get lighter. Yeah. And she looks up and there's this like big car pulling in right next to her on the driveway. And this woman gets out of it. And she's, you know, in her sixties, she looks a lot like Joel.

It's the mom. It's the mom. Why is the mom coming to the house and the girlfriend is there? Because they thought she was still on this work trip and wasn't gonna be back for weeks. Wait, who was the mom coming to see? She's coming home, she lives there still.

Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, stop, wait, stop. Oh my God, wait. Oh yeah, they're still married. Shut the fuck up. Uh-huh. Why is, oh, okay. Pause, all right. So the father has a girlfriend the age of Joel

who was very pregnant and lives possibly in the house but not all the time because the father's wife also lives in the house and Joel is in the house so he must know all of this is going on. Why does he stay and is he using the avocado mattress PR woman's house as like a way to escape the drama? It seems like yes, he's been staying at her place

like clearly because his quote unquote roommates are a fucking nightmare. Yeah, that's insane. Yes, so Cat is in the driveway and she's like looking at this woman who is clearly Joel's mom and Joel's mom is like, oh my God, hi, you're Cat, right? Joel has told me so much about you,

like I've seen photos of you on his phone, like he really likes you. Oh, well that's sweet. Which is really sweet. I mean, he's still trash, he's still trash, but that's sweet. Yeah, it's really nice. But now she's like, I'm standing in the driveway and I have a lot of information that she does not have,

namely that your husband has been cheating on you with a woman who's 30 years old, that that woman is eight months pregnant and that she is standing in your kitchen. My God, see, this is why I couldn't be Cat because I'd be like, you should probably go inside right now. Yeah, so what do you do?

You've got some things to say. What does she do? I would say, hey, I got to run, so nice to meet you. I'm not gonna tell you what to expect, but you should expect something weird when you walk in that house right now. Good luck and Godspeed. So you don't think she has like any,

even though she's gotten this new information that Joel like does seem to really like her and maybe does have like somewhat of a good heart, even though he like clearly needs to grow up a lot, she has no obligation to tell this woman anything. No, not my circus, not my monkeys. I agree with you and so does Cat. Cat's like, it's lovely to meet you, goodbye.

Goodbye, yup, yup. And she gets into her car and she derives away. And this is kind of where our gossip runs out. No, I need more, I need more. Well, ask me your questions because I probably have answers to them from our friend of a friend, but she does like go back to her apartment

and she's like, what the fuck? And so when we first got this information, it was because like, if you were in this situation, Sam, what are you doing if not sending a voice memo to literally every friend that you have? Yeah, I mean, I think the answer is simple. She has to let this fuck boy go. Cause even if he isn't the source of the main drama,

he's a party to it and just stay in there for it. And that's not a good sign. Like if this is a house in which there's a mistress and a wife, both secretly coexisting, why does he wanna live and be a part of that mess? No matter how free it is. I think he needs to, one,

start out being a lot more truthful and honest about what his setup is. And that's a red flag if you can't do that. And two, if continuing to date him means she has to sign up for that kind of drama whenever she goes over there, it ain't worth it. I don't care how good the D is. Right, I guess that's a question that I have for you

is like how much drama is worth it? The older I get, that threshold gets lower and lower and lower. Mary J. Blige, I don't want it, I don't need it. Like I can't. Because like, you know, as all the dating apps teach us, the world is big, there are plenty of fish out there. Find a non-dramatic fish, right?

Find a non-dramatic fish. So I, yeah, I think she should leave it. Leave him, leave it, it's too much. So here are the updates that I have received. Okay, tell me, tell me. The dad and the girlfriend moved in together. In that house or in another house? In another house.

And so who's in that big house? The mom and Joel still, but the house is currently on the market. Does Joel's mom know about the mistress or not mistress, the girlfriend? Yes, because she walked in and she was there. And what happened when she walked in? Joel's terrible dad tried to pawn her off

as a girl that Joel had knocked up. Shut the fuck up. Mm-hmm. Stop it, what did Joel do? Joel was like, absolutely the fuck not, and chose his mom's side. Oh my God, the dad is trash. Mm-hmm, and especially because he was like,

like his mom was like, wait, if you got this girl knocked up, like why was cat here? Yeah, because like the mom knows cat, yeah. So they, the dad and the girlfriend moved out and she had the baby and the baby is like apparently very cute, but also we don't meet it or talk to it. The house has not sold yet and Joel and his mom are.

Because it's cursed. Because it's cursed. And also because it is outdated and those kind of houses, you know, always have the kind of like design choices that cost a lot of money to fix. And cat has not broken up with him. What is it about him that keeps bringing her back?

Our friend of our friend said, and I quote, she's the kind of girl who needs to be told, run. Wow, well, this is me saying to cat, loud into a microphone, run, you endanger girl, run. Get out. If a man is not paying his own rent by the time he's 30, he's not for you. He's not for you.

I mean, that seems like a great hard line to me. Put that, crochet that into some tapestry and hang it on your goddamn wall. And also to me, I'm like liking you is not enough. Yeah. Like there are lots of people in the world who will like you. I like all of my exes, but they're exes

for a reason, for many reasons. Like you gotta let some things go. You know, I like ice cream, I can't eat it all day, you know, I like a lot of shit. I'm concerned for her. It seems like her friends, considering the fact that they sent us this gossip are also fairly concerned for her.

Tell her to run. Well, also tell, it seems as if she is accepting a relationship as a placeholder because she might not know exactly what she wants in a long term relationship or if she wants one at all. But once you get to the point where you realize you perhaps want a spouse or you perhaps want kids

and a life with somebody, you're gonna look for someone who can give you that permanence. This man cannot give her that permanence, but maybe if he doesn't need that right now, in which case, keep getting that D. But just know that man is not a hoe that you can turn into a housewife.

It's not gonna happen. He's not going to change. If you want a man to build a life with, know at some point you'll have to upgrade. Something I've noticed in a lot of the gossip stories we've been getting is that there seems to be a lot of problems like this right now,

which is that people who like, were dating someone during the pandemic that wasn't great for them, just haven't broken up with them yet. And so on some level, I have like some optimism for Kat that like the more she sees this man interact with the world and the more she like meets people in the world,

she'll be like, mm-mm, no. This ain't it. Yeah. It's not you. I think the best thing you can do for someone like that, like you can say upside and downside, leave him, leave him, leave him, leave him, but that probably won't work. What you can do is suggest ways

that that person might be a little more critical of their own choices. Have them write a pro and con list about this dude. Have them write a list of like ideal qualities and traits in a permanent partner. Have her start doing that kind of reflection and she might receive the message on her own. I like this like CBT homework that you have prescribed.

I think that that would work. Honestly, I think it's good advice. Yeah, write it down, write it down. Well, Sam, do you have any other thoughts? It's the end of our gossip train. You know, I think as with most gossip, you can tell early on where your allegiances should lie and what's probably gonna happen.

And let this be a lesson to Kat. If it looks like a fuck boy, talks like a fuck boy, smells like a fuck boy, fucks like a fuck boy and lives at his daddy's house, he might just be a fuck boy and maybe you should run. Sam, thank you so much for coming on. Where can our listeners find you? Yeah, so I have a twice a week podcast

called It's Been a Minute from NPR. It's also on the radio every weekend on about 400 stations across the country. And I am on social platforms, Twitter and Instagram at samsanders. If you wanna email the show or the team that makes it, including myself, you can email us at samsanders at npr.org.

And is there anything else you'd like to hot while you're here? I was joking earlier, but actually serious. The biggest crisis that is unaddressed in our country right now is hunger. On any given day, about a quarter of American kids have missed a meal or more. And a lot of adults are hungry every day.

Also, there is a great food bank in whatever city or town you're in right now. Give them some money. I love that. Thanks for coming on, Sam. This is a pleasure. I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to do it.

Made my day. Cat, do better. Find better. You deserve. Thanks for listening to Normal Gossip. If you disagreed with our takes or have a gossip story to share, please email us at normalgossip at defector.com

or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679gossip. You can follow me on Twitter at At McKinney-Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong Loughlin. Thanks to Projects Editor Justin Ellis and Editor-in-Chief Tom Leigh and the rest of the Defector staff. And thanks to Sarah for sharing this gossip story with us. Defector Media is a collectively owned

subscriber-based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe to defector at defector.com. I'm Kelty bikini, and remember you do not hear this from me.